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Surprising Lessons from Reddit's "44 D&D Rules" Drama
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- Опубликовано: 18 авг 2024
- Recently, D&D Twitter had a STRONG reaction to "44 rules for dnd" posted on Reddit, but the reaction was almost as overdramatic as the post itself! Let's examine these 44 "rules" and discuss what most people missed. ▶️ More below! ⏬
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00:00 the silly situation is not so silly
01:27 normal 'bad gm' rules, with some good ones
09:29 suspiciously specific dnd rules
11:30 be glad you aren't in this group
14:14 dear god why
#dnd #dungeonsanddragons #dndhorrorstories
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rule 4 may be referring to players asking for loot, not necessarily npcs looking to steal it.
If you rewrite these rules in a kinder & nicer fashion, you basically have the equivalent to the Etiquette of Participating in a TTRPG.
This sounds like there were attempts to have this conversation multiple times before this point. It normally takes a lot for someone to actually get to this point of frustration.
There are people who are paid players or GMs. If you're paying someone to run your game or be apart of your game, you would want to make sure they would be treated with respect especially if its a paid GM.
Oblivion Oddities Project Studios is building a TTRPG called Oblivion Oddities. They're going to be releasing the "Soft Core Rules" aka Rules Lite version of Oblivion Oddities, at the end of the month. It's only a few pages. One of which is the character sheet.
I hope you'll check it out, talk about its potential, & possibly be apart of the first streamed testing of the Alpha v1 of the "Hardcore Rules".
I think you'll love the way this game is going to be since you're all about Creative & Positive ways to create games because they're thinking about how to teach people to create games in general being baked into the system design itself along with TTRPG Etiquettes.
Hi I'm a new player to DnD & I'm sending this message/question to all the good DnD youtube channels I watch because you guys are
obviously extremely well informed about DnD & all it's aspects.
My question is what spells could I use to create a (non-homebrew) pokeball like device or bag that I can use to capture creatures
and even people inside to be released at a later time alive.
I know you can put things in a bag of holding but it's my understanding that anything living will die or be eaten by a creature that lives
inside the dimension the bag uses to store stuff so that wouldn't work.
I'm currently making a cleric character if that helps you anyway.
please get back to me asap.
Hey Bob, I think you have white balance set to auto on your camera. When the paper is on screen white is white but when the paper is not on screen your teeth match your shirt. lol
Note that the DM said "Too drunk to play", not merely "Drunk". That is dedication to your bottle.
“Drunkenness is a sin, Drinking isn’t.” - Martin Luther (paraphrased)
@@SuperDuperHappyTimeIt’s also just a verse in the Bible itself. I don’t remember where tho
@@bananageneral5217 Ecclesiastes 9:7: "Go, eat your food with gladness, and drink your wine with a joyful heart, for it is now that God favors what you do."
If you get crossfaded it's damn near impossible because communicating nuanced plans is out of the question. My group tried it once, we didn't make it far.
I think that one is fairly obvious. Drinking a beer or two=fine. Drinking so much it strts affecting your behavior=not fine
The moment that the cheating, griefing, trouble-making player left our table, the game and mood improved vastly. I wish we'd kicked him out years earlier.
Same happens to me, I kind of feel like I was gaslight, because I was trying to figure out did I do something wrong or why the trouble player was acting the way they did.
@brendenhawley2225 it can be for any number of reasons. Sometimes players cheat because they don't know how to do math. Sometimes they lash out because they have a rough real life, and their character is a self insert where pretend pain feels real. Sometimes players are jerks because that's just who they are and they get a rise out of trolling.
It took me an entire psych degree, but I eventually realized that my player cheated because in his mind he was the best at games. So when the dice didn't go in his favour, that was a mistake in the universe. He only cheated because he knew was the best, and so the results needed to align with that. In his mind, it wasn't cheating.
@@JamesMillsNeutralBase Yeah, I think ours that guy player, was just a kid, with very little social awareness. So he just did not get why repeatedly betraying the party, pvp, disobeying party wishes, giving himself an overpowered backstory, and in generual being so bossy to npc it is shocking. Also he killed off his character rather than deal with consequences repeatedly
My first encounter (far from being the worst)had him, trying to talk a criminal npc to work with him with no subtly, and when the criminal agreed to meet in a back alley away from being a public place, resorted into thrusting the criminal in meeting here.
I shall note he was level 1 at the time and he complained about me trying to start with a low tier(black pearl) magic item, in response to him trying to start with a rare gun.
I wound up trying to drag his character away for his own safety (likey not the best move since it was breaking player autonomy and starting a conflict) I failed since my Druid had strength as a dump stat. He than whispers into my ears (in game) , how he going to kill everyone I love, hate my friends and family. I decide to replay my character as panicking due to this, so I throw a cantrip (doing damage but I make it clear it not meant to be fatal ) and run away, he engages stsrting pvp. I was clear from the start this is a panicked trying to get away from the other pc.
Gm intervenes and calms things down. Than the other pc offers my character cake, I decline, but he rolls persuasion to make me an accept. I know the guy is a assassin both in and out of character so I try to role insight to resist, fail (did not help gm still new to the game did not realize insight was what one was susposed to use instead of persuasion, so he rejected advantage in favor of letting me use it) get drugged with a poison, gm is shocked it was poison, and figured it was a water under the bridge thing. Also he notes the player should not have poison.
By this point I am fed up enough and given into the toxicity, that I am fine with it dying, as long as the guards (noted to be quite capable) add two plus two and take him down with me. Gm has nearby healer save me and that player gets arrested.
Afterwords our third player joins us, gm ret con the session. I try to be more mindful of escalating conflicts with that player and that player proceeds to become in some ways worse, repeatedly trying to join enemies of the party, starting conflicts we made it clear we do not want and being surprised.
The second to final straw is him betraying the party for the big strong bad guy, we beating him and and the bad guy, and when we come back to the village to claim our rewards, I proceed to causally drop the whole backstab thing, to the village. Villiagr agreed to make the pc a magic weapon all while hamming it up on how he is a trustworthy guy just like magic weapons need to be trustworthy.
That guy proceeds to be surprised the weapon does not work right, it not even cursed just randomly heals and hurts and breaks it in a rage.
So yeah I believe dnd horror stories a lot more after that. Our party is not exactly lawful good, and we do some pvp sometimes, but we in general can work out our disagreements and the pvp happens more during comedy scenes out of combat, and is water under the bridge.
I also have established myself as a sort of rule lawyer who insists everyone must know the rules, but in a break from the normal horror stories I am twice as clear when the rules actually do not work in our favor. Not that I insist on following them, I just want everyone to know the rules that i am breaking. Our d&d group is pretty good, not perfect but pretty good once we kicked the toxic player.
I used to never kick players. I do these days (also vibe check them before letting them join the game). Games are so much more fun these days even with people I don't really know.
I wish some actual play DnD podcasts did that...
From what I understand, Reddit did do their due diligence and found out that the list was posted in bad faith, and that the OP was one of the abusers who was bragging in other posts about how much they were winding their DM up. With that context, it's clear this guy was driven to do this as a final warning shot to his problem players that he was done with their bullshit.
well the person that posts someone's exasperated rant to a mocking public is not going to do it in good faith
not that I think you disagree, but I think it's worth highlighting that despite bringing a list of sometimes-crazy rules to the table and talking about how he doesn't care what his players feel/think etc, he was actually kind of being too soft. Players who did the stuff these players did should have been kicked from the group with little to no warning. Someone trashes your stuff and doesn't even offer to replace it? Out, immediately. Someone is getting wasted and can't play? Out, immediately. Pretty much any of the other rules that are clearly responses to things that happened are on the level of "we're gonna talk about this *once*, and if you eff up again you're done."
At the point where you have to make this list, the bigger problem isn't the a-hole players that are making the game miserable for everyone, it's that you don't feel like you can kick them out for that behaviour without making a 44 point list of rules.
TL;DR: The correct behaviour for the DM was to kick the problem players because their behaviour was beyond awful, and the worst part of the situation as apparent is that they felt like they couldn't imo
@@Cenitopius agree, though I wouldn't call it being soft, I'd actually call it misguided on his part. He wasn't doing this as a favor to cut them slack. He's just thinking he can solve behavioral problems with players using in game consequences, and that's always a bad idea. That does start to come across as more passive aggressive and petty and isn't likely to get the changes you want.
Like you said, the proper response is to deal with this in reality. 'Hey, this behavior feels really disrespectful, would you please stop?'. And if they aren't working with you, it's clearly a bad group. And we all know the old saying about no DND versus bad DND... kick 'em if it's one, leave if the whole group is disfunctional.
@@hugsandcurses and omits everything that led to that point. It's like a disguised "am I the ahole", and the answer is yes, lol
@@Cenitopius some people have problems setting boundaries, so they let people trample them until they can't take it anymore and explode.
When i first saw this i thought: "half of these are perfectly reaso able and the other half clearly have a history behind them."
I disagree. Some of them are reasonable, yes, but the list should not have been written in the first place. If the players are decent reasonable people, then some of the rules (the ones with "history behind them") are unreasonable and sound like bullying by the DM. If the players really act like pigs and rules like that are necessary they aren't going to respect those rules either, the only sensible thing is to leave the group. In either case the list was a bad idea
My thoughts exactly
@@exantiuse497 Depending of person leaving group might not be as easy as people think that it is. I mean, in general it is really good advice but there is always that stigma that you are that kid who just collects their toys and leaves back to cry to his parents when somebody does something to him.
Now I do not know this DM but I can say from my point of view that I have been in some really though playing groups where I have been dm and because of my really low self esteem and really high amount of self hatred I just haven't been able to pull myself out of those situations easily. Even worse when I have been dm because I have just felt that if I am not dm they can't play or gather together and thus I have been forced to be in that role.
Again, I do not know about this DM but another point and this time about this list. As an person with neurological problems I know that when I get angry it's really hard to watch out what I am doing and I could easily see myself writing list like this. I mean, I have for exampled just shut down one EVE online guild just because I was too frustrated to situation happening (honestly, it wasn't even big deal that time).
@@exantiuse497 Frankly it sounds like he _did_ leave and these are his conditions to run the game again. Which is entirely fair.
@@exantiuse497 Yeah from what I heard the DM did leave, but the group begged them to come back, and these were the conditions for him to return
Makes it seem much more reasonable, because this is a 'if you want me back, clean up your act' sort of list, not a 'normal' list
The tone of the rules reminds me of an exasperated parent
I'm reminded of Louis CK's take on seeing parents yell at their kids in public after he became a parent himself: "What did that shitty kid do to that poor person?"
Haha, no experience in that department, but having worked with kids a while, I've seen kids do/say a lot of similarly outlandish things. And yeah, most of the time, they have a reason!
@@BobWorldBuilder I'm a teacher and reading through this, I really felt like everyone involved was like 13 years old. If the GM hadn't mentioned driving, ordering food and getting drunk and high, I would have been completely convinced that this was a pre-teen group. Having said that, it is entirely possible they are teenagers.
I mean considering he threw in a rule about not discussing what happened in Secondary ie British high school, seems like he was a older guy who had a few teens at his table, which probably explains some of this honestly.
i've played with a group like this. I really did feel like i was their parent. And most of them were older than me.
The original post got removed, because comments by the OP got dug up, and he had a post history of bragging about bullying the DM. With that context, he likely reworded the rules to sound extra bad in some places also.
Wait, wait, the post was by a *player* complaining about the DM?
@@TheMaleReiThe thread was called "My GM just posted the 44 rules for DND"
Or added rules to the list or who knows what else.
I really get the feeling that the DM was trying to say "I quit and here's why" but also didn't want to close the campaign.
That "hiatus" was sus - most likely the DM *did* quit and was persuaded to come back, hence the laying-down of laws.
@@mandisaw Exactly. I suspect he decided he needed a break and realised pretty quick that he didn't want to start back up but got pressure from the group to do so and this was the response.
@@drewhalcro6082 Maybe, but I meant the DM said, "I quit," and the OP/players chose to view it as a "hiatus". Disrespect for the DM's choices & person seem on-brand.
It really seems like an offer that's so absurd in its demands, even a group of these oblivious bully players will pick up on.
Like i hate my cousin for basically making me have a broken jaw, aint no way i am going to pick him up or help me and the IRS aint going to force me to do it.
The DM seems likely he should of wrote n o, banned their numbers and mailed their sheets back to them with 100 no's
When I listened to these rules, thinking as a 40+ year veteran DM, I began to think, "Man, what kind of horrible gaming group has this guy been dealing with?" Like, I've literally never (since the freaking 1980's) had players getting drunk or stoned at the gaming table. I've never had to tell people to not get completely incoherent while playing.
I've seen this kind of thing among geek-groups (anime, comics, cosplay, and TTRPGs). There's that sense that we can't kick out a*holes because of being outcast nerds, "together against the world". I don't hold with that - it just creates toxic communities.
Was in an anime meetup where a bunch of drunken jerks had driven away most of the regulars. Former lead didn't believe we could afford to lose anyone. When I took over as lead, I set down some rules of conduct, basic kindergarten-level respect/courtesy stuff. They quit coming, and we grew like 4x with new & returning members who preferred the more congenial atmosphere.
There are millions of people in the world who like geek hobbies - easier to make new friends than put up with a tide of horsesh*t.
I tried DMing while stoned once. It was good until it wasn’t
I sometimes drink or smoke while/before playing. Usually I DM, but the only time I've ever gone too far was actually when I was playing as a player though, and I had an edible that was a lot stringer than I thought it would be. I swear I would lose track of what the DM was saying before they even finished a sentence. It was especially bad because I was the most senior player at the table and was playing the charismatic party face, and I couldn't even properly follow conversations.
I had to apologize afterwards. My DM said that she didn't realize I was high, she just thought I was uninvested and it made her self conscious. I never got high again while playing after that, but I still drink in moderation
I don't even associate with frequently drunk or stoned people, let alone try to DM for them.
Want to be wasted while gaming? Find someone else to play with.
Drunk gaming is fun now and then, but D&D is not the system to use.
I can recommend It came from the Late Late Late Show or Champions for late night silliness. I still recall Silvikrin the Masked Hairdresser, the Bad Guys may have ended up in Jail but their hair looked great.
Agreed. It was obvious, even though none of us can be absolutely sure, that this is a DM that was pushed to the breaking point. I'm not saying he was entirely in the right, but actually shame on people who decided to join in on the bullying of this dude.
Yeah having double checked the original Reddit post, I realized that the top comments there were much more understanding than the twitter replies
Yeah, my previous exposure had just been from someone reading the first 10 or so, and just from those my thoughts were "ok, these aren't presented well, and are often over the top, but these are obviously reactions to specific incidents and issues that have been cropping up, and hoo boy this group has issues as a whole that led to this venting post."
If I look at this from the DM's perspective, and it's the DM who wrote this and so if they're trying to actually solve problems they're the ones who have to take action, the solution is to weed out the people who are a problem not try to change them. This whole approach will piss off the people who are a problem and they might become more of a problem while probably driving off the people who would be willing to try to create a fun game. Whether their anger is justified or not this approach is disastrous.
@@BobWorldBuilder well its the Wild West of X these days so that makes total sense, that platform encourages people to be the worst versions of themselves.
@@aaronbono4688 so well said!!! like, even if the DM was absolutely justified with every point on this list, he still went about it in an equally toxic way. i totally get wanting to make sure that the people who wrong/upset you understand what happened. but there comes a point where u have to let go!
After reading and studying these rules, it seems pretty clear there are no heroes in this story
Definitely. No winners here :/
When you read it carefully, the vast majority of the rules are good rules just poorly presented.
e.g. Don't interrupt play by bringing out food, wait for a break.
@@fred_derf then you get the rules that are almost solely designed to create conflict between gm and players, seemingly to give gm just cause to kick people at the cost of any fun any not awful players could have
@@andrewdiaz3529that potential fun was gone when the problem players were allowed to stay without improvement so long that things were this bad.
Then again, it's the GM's job to kick them.
No heroes. Just people.
@fred_derf exactly, really came off as "DM lost it and had enough", specifically had enough of his players bullshit.
Genuinely I feel so bad for this DM. They didn’t just write this in an hour after a heated debate, they had a WEEK LONG BREAK to calm down and think things over, and they STILL felt like this was needed
It probably wasnt even a break. It was more than likely them quitting and getting begged to come back so they gave these rules as a way to tell the party to fork off
@@jdizzy192thats exactly right by the way
"We're not here to have fun, we're here to play D&D."
That is a statement that cuts deep. The DM's goal is to try and provide a world for the players to have fun playing in. That one statement implies that the game isn't fun at all, and all the work the DM is putting in is practically worthless.
Or the players' idea of 'having fun' is probably, ironically, doing their own things and not taking the session seriously, or simply, upsetting the GM either covertly or openly.
OR. the dm has repeatedly made it clear as indicated in the rules that fun is not a primary consideration of the game sessions
I don’t think that’s what he meant. It’s more like when the DM cracks the whip and says “everyone get serious” and the players say “relax, aren’t we here to have fun?”
I actually agree that the game is more fun when everyone focuses up and gets into it, just saying, I don’t think they meant what you’re saying.
At the end for my wife and I, and many of the players at our table, D&D is just a way to have a fun social event together like any other group-based game. Fun is the overall goal.
"I cut the dragons head off in one swing"
"You can't do the, you can attack the dragon, roll to hit"
"But it'll be funny if I one shot the dragon"
"That's not how DND works though"
"Ah yes, we're not here to have fun we're here to play DND"
Is how I imagine that went
I was telling my group of players, who most don't DM, that nobody just... decides to say all this-- Every time I was reading a rule I was clearly remembering a time I had to deal with a problem player. The dude didn't handle this well but it really seemed like they were at a breaking point
Bingo. Some of the rules are so specific. Bad situation!
Super specific. Like an edge case of an edge case, there's no way this is simple proactive.
Some even just feel like extreme versions of things I often see as advice for handling larger groups (particularly the stuff around turn and action discipline) - I've never seen anyone advice of a one minute timer for an entire turn, but I often see for 6+ person groups it get suggested to use a clock for people starting to take their turn.
And others aren't particularly extreme or specific or weird in any sense - No food or drink at the table isn't how I run games when playing in person, but some people do and I absolutely get that. Last time I played at a table where we were doing that (a board game group) we just put closed bottles on the floor by our feet and picked them up to open and drink from when we wanted to have a sip. And I've seen the consequences of not doing - accidents and elbows happen - and while that's a risk I'm willing to take with my board games I get that not everyone is. The stay sober stuff also absolutely fine, not for every group but not particularly shocking.
@@BobWorldBuilder I can see it being a reaction to toxic player, or be a paranoid gm, or even be a total mismatch in expectations.
Like what the cut off to being too drunk to play, is it being so drunk you barely walked while being convinced you have the grace of ninja due to beer googles or you went into the session with a cup of wine as a drink, clearly every mistake you make must be because one drunk on the rear.
Heck this a case of firsts lead to second?
I do know my very casual d&d group would drive some gms up a wall, but the one time we broke our gm, we were quick to comfort him. Also it was because he was trying to make a mass combat scenario and did not roll high on his game design check (we did make jokes on how it was better roll than most game designers) Next session, he came up with something that was not perfect but did have intresting ideas, and health/damage somewhat balanced,
I also avoided this list because it just sounded like people mocking drama.
I'm glad you took the time to actually break it down and apply some empathy to the situation.
I would like to add that it's possible this person doesn't have many others to play with. Where I live (rural), I often struggle to find enough players. The thing to remember is this: No DnD > Bad DnD
Everyone’s situation is different, and it’s very possible that this is their only option for playing the game. And it’s not just location that can prevent someone from finding others to play with. Physical, mental, or emotional limitations can also make it difficult or even impossible to find other players. But, I agree: No DnD is better than Bad DnD.
That's something I thought as well.
Maybe they are out-of-game friends and acquaintances, and the GM wants to have a good time with them, but things did not worked out as expected.
Very good points!
@@annie4424 Part of me wants to find this DM and direct them towards solo RPGs like Colostle. You don't get the social aspect of DnD playing a game with your friends, but it can provide an outlet when you're otherwise stuck. I currently play a solo game myself while I run a game for my wife and some friends, it lets me get my player time in and helps me stave off the burnout.
But you're right, there's a lot of barriers that people may not be thinking about. Even online play has barriers and is a different experience than playing with friends around a table.
The internet exists.
My friends moved to different countries so now we play online.
Important note for context, this was a group that went on hiatus, and this was the list of rules put forward by the DM as an ultimatum for being a DM for the group again
I moved to Korea to teach English and when I got there I joined a TTRPG group I found online. They had me audition for their group because they had been burned several times in the past accepting strangers into their campaigns. It sounds ridiculous, but it makes a lot of sense. The first time they were burned was by a woman who was incredibly emotional and sensitive about literally everything and thought anything that happened in the game was a personal attack against her actual character in real life. The second time they got burned was by a min-maxer who had no interest in role-playing or exploring the world whatsoever and just wanted to dominate combat at the expense of everything else. Judging by these experiences, it made sense that they instituted an audition system, where if someone wanted to join they would do a one-shot with them completely unrelated to the campaign to see how they would personally jive with the style and vibe of the group. Happy to say I nailed the audition and joined the campaign and it was one of my favorite campaigns I've ever been a part of.
That's actually a pretty decent idea if you're looking for strangers to join an ongoing campaign.
In addition to the audition, new players should have to audit a session. Attend and just watch how the group plays, after seeing how they play you may not want to play with them anymore. Then if they still want to play go ahead with the audition. Sometimes players don't fit groups and other times groups don't fit players. It's best to check both ways.
This group sounds soo fun and great! How can one find such an online group? 🤩
Any group that sets boundaries has high standards. I always appreciate these groups.
Irl you would know the person or have someone vouch. Online you could get anything, good idea to meet them before getting right into it.
Yeah, watching other content creators cover this and having dealt with problem players myself, my immediate reaction was "what did this person's group do to them". The person was clearly pushed way past the breaking point and definitely should have left the group rather than come back after that hiatus.
Assuming the whole thing wasn't a troll post (some things feel way too specific for that so I doubt it), this group should've broken up a long time ago
Ya agree. Of course some rules are ridiculous however it shows that the gm was pushed too much.
I think the DM must've been doing groups on like roll 20 or something and those random ones can be a "sheetshow" let me tell ya. I have a feeling it was more than one group but if that wasn't the case then yeah he should've left that one long ago for the sake of his mental health clearly.
@@vlad_ussr8390 given they were already on hiatus the first time i saw it, it reminded me of someone giving a ridiculous price for a job they really didn't want to do. sure i'll mow your lawn for $1500 kind of thing
@@TheAciddragon069Yeah that's what I think too
5:50 I wouldn’t be surprised if the “no take backs” comes from there being traps or spell effects on certain spaces that have be resolved. If they are playing with that sort of thing and a player walks over a trap and continues moving, the DM may want to resolve the trap before the player finishes their move, at which point, a “take back” is just cheating to avoid a trap.
This reminds me of an instance when a player cast Hold Monster on an Undead creature, which is just not legal.
How do you resolve that? Allowing misplays is important to make decisions matter. But it also feels a bit rubbish.
@@Miranda17137 That is a weird interaction. TIL, Hold Monster works on everything but undead…
@@Miranda17137 My ruling would be that it can't be cast in the first place because there is no valid target, therefore it can't fail. The exception is if the target is purposefully disguised as a valid target, humanoid in this case.
Yeah many of these rules seemed to have very specific inspiration
@@zaifir8119 In this specific circumstance I did point out to the player that that spell won't work against an Undead creature, and I let them spend their Bonus Action and no spell slot instead of wasting the Action and spell slot in this circumstance.
Generally speaking though I would rule it as a fizzle. Action or bonus action is spent, but the spell slot isn't lost. I usually like to resolve 'that spell didn't work' with 'fizzle'.
The most damning thing for me is how the GM complained twice about not being respected because "reddit says you're wrong", and guess what one of the players does. Immediately posts these rules to reddit.
Of course none of us know what truly happened, but I have a sneaking suspicion that if we HAD the full context of this campaign, we'd have applauded the GM for their cathartic putdown of these shitty players, even if it wasn't the *most* mature thing to do. I'd like to think this was just a final "screw you" before leaving, and not real rules that they'd implement in the game
I think this was a good litmus test lots of people often say ‘it’s the DMs job to ___’ and include a massive list from learning your character, accommodating terrible habits, buying all gear, paying for a table, making a structured story that also includes near infinite freedom, and always ruling exactly like you’d want never thinking about what players should do. DMing can be hard and when players treat you like they’re your boss it can really suck especially when they’re as disrespectful as these people seem to be.obviously this guy took it too far but man some people have unreasonable expectations
I had someone tell me it's my job to make sure every backstory someone comes up with works in my game. Like, no it isn't. I provide lore information and I'm open to questions and working with you, but you're not playing the runaway child of the king of the kingdom. Another noble house? *sure*, but you're not having "Heir to the kingdom" weight to throw around at level 1
exactly. Its not a job, the DM isnt working for you. The DM is also a player (although I think many DMs would be more than happy to treat it as a full time job if you paid their salary lol)
the first time i read the rules it seem so clear, this is what happen when you don’t have the opportunity to play with friends, when you desire to play this game and have nobody trustworthy to do so, you end up playing with some random table and even when you hate it you are desperate to keep playing because you like the game, so you and the table end up having bad experiences because of it
This is like the #2 reason for virtual/online play, behind distant-friends. If you legitimately live somewhere where your only option to play in-person are a bunch of toxic a*holes, then either recruit some non-playing friends into a new group, or just go play online with decent people.
So much of the online advice for D&D boils down to making rhe DM responsible for everyone else's emotional wellbeing. Things like, "my players keep showing up late or not showing up at all," are often responded with "just wait a little bit more for people to show up!" or "make sure eveyone schedules better!"
These statements intrinsically put the responsibility on the DM, who already has so much more to deal with by the nature of their position. These rules, and the online response to the DM, are the perfect encapsulation of why we have so few DMs, or why campaigns statistically only last 3-9 sessions. We need to foster a more healthy relationship towards d&d, and ttrpgs in general. Thanks for your nuanced response, as always 👍
Exactly. The online advice fosters unrealistic expectations, irrational ones. The DM is NOT your goddamned servant. They're not your slave. They're there to have fun, too. And they have JUST as much right to their enjoyment as you do. And they do more work, so show them some goddamned respect. [unless they're assholes right out the gate, of course]
You summarized my problem with most of the online dnd community in a nutshell. I just straight up tell new groups. That im here to play a game, im not here to manage drama, your schedules, nor bend everything in the world to your request. All I ask is for them to respect me and my time. It has worked absolute wonders
I'm playing with my work homies, and we had one guy who was always late, and I kindly, but directly told him he will be out if he does that (and explained that for me it's about respect). We are still friends and he was never late once. Just talk to people!
"Dm is not yout slave"... so what you are saying is /s
But idk, like if I was playing 40k online with my friend who doesnt tell me when goes to work, falls asleep randomly or doesnt be like "I think i can stay up 2 hours"
I would bap him.
As a person who doesn't play the game, it almost sounds like one of the non-DM players should be assigned the role of organizer. It really does help to have one person in a leadership role to wrangle a group together, and I can understand how people default to giving that role to the DM since they are already in charge of the narrative aspect of the campaign, but it sounds like an absurd amount of work to have to do to then ALSO have to make sure everyone gets there on time, usually at your own house, keeping everyone playing nice and obeying all the rules... Assigning a sort of "group leader out of game" role to a player sounds helpful. Though that does require a responsibile player to be in the group.
XP to level 3: Taps out before getting to the end, agrees with reasonable rules before he does
"Let's Build Us a Character" guy: Agrees with rules that are dumb under some presumption he's made
Bob: "Why are these people playing together"
Yup, which is why I took the time to comment on XP to Level 3's video.
As of right now, with 764k views, all of those people came away from that video with the impression that the GM was the villain, not the abusive OP.
what I found funny was the rule that seemed to annoy him the most was attack of opportunity triggered when casting spells, which is in every other TTRPG I've ever played.
I personally avoided this cuz i could SMELL the fishyness from a mile away like wheb youtubers do ads.
Imo the DM should of had the stones to say no, lock them out and keep then out. My cousin broke my jaw and i aint helping him, no way 100%
"He is not welcome here, he clearly wants to go so let him go" basically you get that vibe by rule 14 for the DM and Players...
Also i did laugh at it xox
Like why would you /want/ to spend time with people so addled and so potato it hurts?
@@markbooth3066 Honestly, I suspect there's plenty of abuse getting thrown both ways.
For a whole lot of these, how reasonable or unreasonable they are kinda depends on the dynamics of the game. A lot of them do seem like trying to reign in problem players though.
I think that, at the end of the day, they're just not working on the same wavelength and the group will have to be disbanded.
Where is the evidence of that @@ColonelSandersLite? It's very easy from the outside to both-sides a situation in which one party is clearly being abused.
There is, however, in the rules themselves, plenty of evidence to suggest this DM has been lied to, taken advantage of, and treated with significant disrespect, with many more serious allegations alluded to. You don't even need to read significantly between the lines to see how badly they have been treated. Pushed beyond breaking point is how this all reads.
This is the epitome of "behind every sign is a story".
Absolutely based and reasonable take on that list, so many people just ripped into that DM without considering the player's involvement in the situation.
Even better, the OP was also a toxic person given how he posted it as a nightmare to themselves and blindly agreed with those mocking the DM because of the strict rules. I bet OP is one of the problem people, and that everybody in that d&d group is toxic.
Thanks. Yeah, I think most people who checked it out must have only got through the first handful of rules. Especially on Twitter. After revisiting the Reddit post, the top comments were very understanding of the situation!
I rip on the gm in this case for one simple reason, Why has it gotten to this point? why did he not leave sooner instead of doing this? Does the fun parts severely outweigh the bad parts most of the time?
@@MyAramil From the thread it seems that the GM *Did* leave, but the players were begging for their return. So the GM gave this unreasonable list to essentially guarantee they wouldn't have to come back
based on what?
For the "if you don't act out the persuasion role, you fail" one - my version of that is "No you can't just roll to persuade. I don't need first person roleplay, but I am going to need to know the broad strokes of what your character is doing to persuade, and what they're trying to achieve, at a minimum so I know what success and failure looks like." - Basically I don't know what your character is doing from "I try to persuade the guard to let us go past, I got a 16 does that work?" - Are they bribing the guard, are they lying about having an appointment (that would be deception, not persuasion), are they telling the guard the truth that there's a threat to the kingdom and you must see the king immediately, are they playing tourist and asking where the bibliothèque is while your allies sneak past? What is your character actually doing to 'persuade the guard'? Because success and failure look vastly different on each of those.
But I wouldn't phrase that as a _rule_ - "I try and persuade the guard to let us go past." 'OK, cool, what's your character doing to persuade them?' (and even with first-person roleplay, I might still need to ask "Sorry, what are you trying to achieve here?" because it's not always clear what a player's character wants out of an interaction where they're clearly angling for _something_ from this NPC but they just dive straight into the roleplay.)
"If you don't like how I run my games, you're welcome to GM yourself" is a perfectly reasonable stance. It's not how _I_ would choose to encourage players to GM games, but GMs should be encouraging of players to run games themselves.
this is a very good comment and i respect your stance on persuasion checks.
nobody actually said anything yet so. I appreciate you and think more people like you need to be rolling dice.
"I try to persuade the guard to let us through"
"You persuaded the guard to let you go through a meat grinder. You now play as a hamburger patty. Your magic items are forever lost."
"I roll for persuasion" is such a basic statement that it means almost nothing on its own. Like, applied to a different situation, it'd be like saying "I roll to attack." Okay... attack which one of them? Attack with what? You're a fighter, you could conceivably cleave and hit both guards, and you also have four different magic weapons in your inventory that do different things. There's a lot MORE nuance that could be applied, but at a bare minimum, you need to know things like a target and a general outline of what you're doing.
@Argusthecat Almost no one is that vague. They will say "I try to persuade 'person's name/job' to (insert result here)." They are stating the skill they are using (so clearly persuasion and not intimidation) and who it targets. Are you saying "I attack 'person's name/job' with my (weapon/skill/spell) ." isn't valid for most GMs in combat?
I play 1e so it's different. But when I did play 3e, I would get the player to explain how they're approaching the social situation and hopefully roleplay it out with the NPC, and then when it came to the point where the NPC needed to decide whether they would go with it or refuse, THEN the player rolled with a modifier based on how well the roleplaying went.
If I felt confident that the ploy was solid then it just succeeds. If it's still a little dicey, I'd give them a bonus. With poor strategies or little effort there'd be a penalty. Just rolling with no roleplay is the equivalent of walking up to the gate guard and quietly whining "lemme in", so of course that's going to be hard to succeed.
I think social skill rolls are weird because D&D traditionally expects players to perform strategy, tactics, social tasks, and puzzle-solving themselves. In 1e for example the social rules set up how friendly the NPC is to you (and CHA affects that starting value) but then you just roleplay to interact. There's no roll to succeed at seduction or intimidation. If you walk into a room and there's a weird magical puzzle, the player has to interact with the DM to solve it. No rolls. If your party is about to set out on a desert trek and needs to figure out how to equip the group to survive it, there's no d20 roll so the DM will hand you a completed shopping list. When you're in combat, you have a lot of options, but you can't roll your PC's WIS to get the DM to tell you the right move.
On the other hand, of course D&D doesn't request any performance of the player's aim, agility, speed, strength, endurance, willpower, pain threshhold, etc. Players don't have to memorize spells, pick locks, see in dim light, hold their breath, or climb walls.
Making every thing a die roll rejects the necessity of these player contributions, and dilutes the gameplay.
This is his "I don't want to DM for this group anymore" rules (like an "I don't want to sell" price), this DM clearly had enough with their players but can't just call it quits, maybe they are his IRL friends, co-workers or family that the DM has to see on a regular basis so they want them to quit on their own.
Being a DM with players who have never DMed is like working customer service with customers who have never worked customer service. Sometimes all it takes is one session for people to completely change their views about what is reasonable.
Not having DMed yourself is no excuse for not having empathy for the plight of DM, just as not having worked customer service is no excuse for not seeing the abuse people suffer at the hands of some customers.
While direct experience is the fastest way to gain that wisdom, empathy should lead you there anyway.
“By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest.” - Confucius
@@markbooth3066Unfortunately, empathy is not as common as it should be. Especially on the internet when everyone judge everyone.
Imma just get on my soap box for a bit, but I think a non-negible amount of this can be blamed on D&D 5e systems. Specifically, how this version really doesn't provide DM's as many tools as they need and kinda transformed the player experience into one where you're an audience participant while the DM "does D&D at you."
Books are constantly published with a plethora of player options and resolve to hoist as much responsibility of the game onto the shoulders of the DM, while not giving them consistent enough rules and tools to take on the responsibility easily. DM 5e can be a nightmare, especially for anyone not well-prepared, and that stress is often mitigated by ignoring the rules of the game to move things along.
So, you have a game (and subsequent culture) that incentivizes passive, uninvested players and heaps stress upon the DM. So, when you get people who can't navigate that minefield like adults, it's kinda sad to see this inevitably happen.
@@randomguy019 I am going to take a Game Design class in the fall and doing work for a boardgame i want to make, what systems in your opinion dnd needs to help the DM do fair rules?
(Note: i havebt play dnd at all. 😮😢)
@Subject_Keter I would definitely check out /r/rpg for a more detailed list of problems, but here's a good summary:
1. Creating balanced and fun combat encounters is nearly impossible as CR is barely functional as a mechanic, and there are no official resources to help make those encounters anything more than throwing a monster/many monsters at the players.
2. D&D 5e tries to split the difference between narrative play and detailed dungeon crawling. There's not enough grit resulting in dungeon crawling becoming tedious and frequently in need of homebrew rules to fix, but just enough vestigial grit to annoy narrative players by getting in the way if the story being told.
D&D at this point only provides you a built in audience when you are running it. Everything it does is done better by other systems, and people's constant use of the system to fit genres it wasn't built for inadvertently make the game worse for themselves.
All in all D&D 5e is a very mid game. It's fine, but there are better systems for other types of games.
Finally, someone else who sees how bad the players are to the GM to make him get to that point.
From what I saw it had been posted at least twice on different subreddits, and removed twice because people in comments mostly agreed with the GM… :-]
@@Spriggana as a gm i agree with the most of the rules when getting past the angry/aggressive wording. mosto f them is common table mannerisms mainly time wise we all gather, respect the investment and try not ot halt it unless emergency or ask permission so we plan when taking a break.
A classic case of someone trying to get validation by posting their side of a story on Reddit and getting blown out when they failed to see how many red flags they are putting up.
since the original post was removed i'm guessing reddit saw through the crap, funnily youtube seems to be decidedly on the players side
@@TheAciddragon069 most people just look at the list of rules, see how horrible and mean spirited the rules are, and stop thinking about the situation beyond that. People who dig deeper and start to ask ‘why’ these rules exist, inevitably realize the players were just as bad if not worse than the DM. But most people don’t want to put in the effort to think about the situation that much, so they just take the surface level reading that the DM is a self absorbed asshole.
@@tropicturtle9021 well to be fair, we do not see the d&d groups. So I can see both toxic players driving a D&d player to Snape and a toxic DM power tripping.
In the end we do not really know why DM came to the solution, it could be understandable or toxic,
@@brendenhawley2225 Still doing that surface level readingk, bud, despite your best efforts. We have absolutely no idea how the DM was BEFORE he made these rules, and if you had a triple digit IQ and reading comprehension skills, this list was an angry ultimatum AFTER the group went on a hiatus. He could have been terrible, meh, or great before this , we literally have no idea.
@@robinmohamedally7587 I did say we do not know if the players were bad or good, because an irrational gm can see bad behavior from nothing.
Through the point of the different interpretations reminds me of Linbeck McDonald’s, hot coffee case. Someone suing Macdonalds for coffee being hot sounds absurd and was widely mocked. Than you realize the coffee somehow required several months hospital stay and caused long term complications, like they somehow spilled xenomorph acid instead. Than you learn Mcdoland decided to heat their coffee dozens of degrees hotter than their competitor despite numerous complaints, and spill was an unpredictable accident.
And than maybe you do not 100% agree with the case, but you likey understand their is a different between hot and oh god she her flesh is melting.
GREAT video. Great advice. These are high school students. Bundoora Secondary is a high school in Australia. It stands to reason these are 12th graders--maybe 1st year University students. In light of this, this rant makes total sense. I probably have to make my own video on this. Cheers!
Or they're teachers...🤔
aw this comment makes this really sad. some 12th grade dm is out here having such awful dnd they feel the need to go full authoritarian to feel respected
My god, every single detail gleaned off whatever makes the story even more sad.
Yeah as soon as I heard "Secondary" I instantly knew that this is a just a case of classic High School immaturity.
I like from one tiny detail we have determined that the people are high schoolers in a remote place in Australia.
Staying sober is not an unreasonable requirement
We had a no sober at the table rule but then again we played Stoner D&D
It's pretty common for us to drink/smoke at the table, but we're mostly pretty experienced players who can keep playing regardless
@@hmnhntr If that's your group that's your group
I've been in groups where drinking is ok and others where sober had to become the rule
All I'm saying is if a DM says I want a sober table that's reasonable
Personally if it was my table I allow drinking but not intoxication and no drugs, I do not like being around people when they are on them
and if your playing at a public store then no achole or drugs should be standard, one for legal reasons and two children are or could easily be present
I really want to see Bob play a foul mouthed character now just to hear all of the substitutions he comes up with.
It would've been way easier just to read it as is lol, RUclips is really fickle about swearing though
@@BobWorldBuilder I think it worked. Sometimes the perfect word is a curse word and sometimes an alternative is way more entertaining.
Bob is Flanders ;)
‘Fickle?’. I see what you did there.
I think in a fantasy game swear words should be meaningful to the character, like a blacksmith might say "hammer and tongs", a druid might say "blight" etc.
I’ve heard a few content creators go over these rules and everyone I’ve heard talk about it hasn’t expressed any empathy for the GM in this situation. I could go on about context, and different sides of the same story but I agree with Bob that this GM has been bullied and after enduring a miserable experience for who knows how long, they decided enough was enough. This manifesto came from a place of desperation.
Yeah, and to be fair, I think most people who checked it out must have only got through the first handful of rules. Especially on Twitter. After revisiting the Reddit post, the top comments were very understanding of the situation!
XP to Level 3 made a video with these that was clearly portraying reasonable players with a unreasonable DM. He left out some of the bigger red flags for the players.
@brawlyaura5799 That video was in fact the first one I saw on the subject. His bias was clear and there was little attempt to understand where the GM was coming from. To be fair, the GM does come across completely unreasonable. That's what happens when you write from a place of deep frustration and resentment.
Honestly I found a good number of these rules I could start implementing (albeit a bit more civil) in my own game. Lord knows I've seen enough of the scenarios that these rules are trying to stop. I've always had at least one player in every group whom the timing rule and "you took your hand off the mini" rule would apply to. Nam flashbacks when those were read.
@@showmanshipgaming1326 You don't have to go as far as chess rules, but it's got to be agreed-upon by everyone, upfront (Session 0) what the allowance is. I usually play with friends, nearly all adults, and the rule was you could take your hand off the marker, but once the next player-action or DM-ruling started, that was it.
Yes!!! Finally! I cannot believe people missed the underlying issues that obviously forced this GM to this place. So many videos on RUclips focus on how the DM is "crazy" and "wild," which of course has some merit in that the DM went too far. But what did the players do to get to this point!? It's so clear that the players pushed this GM to the brink. Thank you Bob for identifying this!
I agree with Future!Bob, really glad you came to this conclusion. This poor GM's only crime is having no idea how to handle their group of perpetually late, no-show, stoned, disrespectful, game-derailing, cheating, argumentative players.
At the outset of my latest campaign, I had some new players joining some returnees. One of the new folks kept deciding to go off and do their own thing leaving the rest of the party behind, they also had an aggressive attitude, which so upset one of the old players from my previous campaign, that she suggested it might be better that she leave my game. I took the new player aside and just suggested that my DM'ing style probably did not suit his play style and that for the sake of the both of us he might be happier finding a different group and GM to play with. He left and thing immediately settled down. Sometimes it is better to deal with a problem quickly and decisively than try struggling on with a problem player who upsets the rest of the group. I tend to run slow burn campaigns which generally focus on lots of lore and RP between those sessions which might contain more combat, I like each character's backstory to have some meaningful impact within the game. I appreciate that this can make my games slow and that that does not suit those players who want to be spell slinging, sword wielding bravos all the time. And as a result I know that my games are not for everyone. As Bob so rightly points out it is better to find a group of players who are all comfortable together as this makes for a more harmonious and fun game for all concerned.
You handled that really well! And kudos to the player in your group for being clear that the new player was bothering them, rather than just letting it build up. In this GM's case unfortunately, even no dnd is better than a situation like this.
+eponatwospirithorse4980, writes _"One of the new folks kept deciding to go off and do their own thing leaving the rest of the party behind [...]"_
If, when they go off, they keep meeting up with encounters that would be tough for the whole party to handle they will quickly learn not to go off on their own -- or get lots of practise rolling up new characters.
@@fred_derfthat right there is the immature way to do things. Instead of actually talking to solve the issue before it becomes an issue, you basically Egg on both gm and players anger at each other. That's how you get wacko characters designed solely to destroy a game ,and no one having fun, especially not the other players who are basically bystanders to this hate standoff
@@andrewdiaz3529 fully agree. player behaviour problems need to be solved out-of-character. trying to curb unwanted player behaviour through in-game punishment is a great way to ruin a game. chances are players won't even be able to tell what they're being punished for.
@@andrewdiaz3529, writes _"that right there is the immature way to do things."_
Giving characters appropriate consequences for their actions is "immature"? Seriously?
BTW: Where did I say not to talk to your players about this kind of thing? Of course you should, particularly in session zero. You should have discussed this prior to the game starting, "if you go off on your own I'm not going to scale down any encounters you have". Then if they go off on their own and have an encounter beyond their ability to handle, that's on them.
Any player who's constantly going off on their own is already trying to destroy (or at least disrupt) the game.
RPG horror stories (and all internet gossip, really) are always full of teenage drama-just so toxic, stupid, immature, and inconsequential... adults engaging in that kind of behavior (including reading this stuff on reddit for "fun") makes me cringe with embarrassment. Life's too short to waste it spending time with people who disrespect you. This whole thing is so sad and weird.
Yeah, it's odd that this post even blew up in the first place. It's basically a summary of every RPG horror I've seen before, and a perfect reminder of why I don't make content around them! I think most of the people who watch this channel don't need to be told this behavior is ridiculous!
@@BobWorldBuilder Yeah, I think this video presents a level-headed, empathetic view of the situation. Thanks for amplifying a message of reasonableness and kindness, as always!
I like your username :)
These stories are mostly made up anyway, and even when they are real, they are very partial.
It's just crazy to me how the reactions always completely support the views of the one who posted the story. As if people never even presented things that happened (or didn't happen!) in a way that was advantageous to them.
RPG horror stories has been a genre of fiction for quite some time now. I remember, even before reddit was used, we told stories like that to each other... and weirdly none of it every actually happened, except some weird stuff at conventions. And even then you'd need to exaggerate a lot of things to turn it into a proper horror story.
At this point I'm also pretty that most people who engage with this kind of content aren't even actual players. They just entertain the idea of playing and mimic real players, just because it's trendy to play TTRPG and it's fun to judge people anonymously.
I've tried to help people with such stories in the past, but it's clearly not what they are looking for. They are fishing for reactions.
@@Ezullof This was an exception, then. Not "always". This was posted on Reddit by one of the toxic players. REdditors caused him to dirty delete by going through his post history and going after him in the comments.
Bob’s empathy and willingness to really look at what’s happening in this situation is why I respect his channel so much.
I'm pretty sure that I've played with this group. The DM is over compensating by being excessively aggro, but he is making a last-ditch effort to salvage a game because he has been gaslit into believing on some level that the players' toxic actions are in some way his fault. Dude should just get out of that game. They are not worth it.
Sounds like they are cheating dice rolls as well
Yep, that's such a basic red flag
I once had a player notorious for this. I made the mistake of asking her husband for advice about how to approach the situation tactfully, since she seemed to be the only one not following the "roll in the open" rules (while thoroughly denying it). He blew up at me and accused me of trying to pit them against each other. The game didn't last much longer.
If I can't trust a player to tell the truth about their die rolls, I won't play with them. Full stop. It defeats the whole purpose of the game
@@blackshard641 Sounds like a perfectly reasonable and a healthy relationship.
Thank you for the balanced take. Every person I saw review these seemed to have been siding almost exclusively with players, as if these rules appeared out of thin air.
Thanks. Yeah, I think most people who checked it out must have only got through the first handful of rules. Especially on Twitter. After revisiting the Reddit post, the top comments were very understanding of the situation!
Many people don't read, sadly, or can't read between the lines. There's also a weird-to-me prevailing attitude in the 5e era that "the player is always right", like this is retail customer service. As my brother often says, "the customer is frequently wrong" and this is one such example 😅
@@mandisaw I like the newer phrase "The customer is always right in matters of taste".
That means they always know what they like, they understand their own desires better than anyone else. Beyond that, they have no authority to speak on anything.
@@Madhattersinjeans Oh, that's a good revision! Hadn't heard that one
@@Madhattersinjeans Isn't that actually the original statement, just that the last four words frequently get cut out?
Now realise something even worse - that this list was posted to reddit not by the DM, but by *one of the players*.
So a *player* has seen the lines the DM has drawn in the sand, and is seeking sympathy from and [beaching] to the entire internet about how bad their DM is - when it's become pretty clear the DM has been taking some absolute [ball chute] from one or more players in their group. Peak toxic player behaviour.
I can only imagine that the DM will have found out after that, and immediately end the group.
People on the original Reddit thread started picking up very quickly that someone wasn't right. If you look for it you will see that OP deleted their post after a lot of people started asking them some pointed questions.
I kinda expected to be angry at this GM like the rest of the gaming community is, but being a "forever GM" myself, and hearing Bob read through them... man... I kinda get it.
Like, dude is upset, ok, so he's going a little far in some of these punishments, but he's right most of the time. Some people forget that the GM is a player too, and we GMs are there to have fun and enjoy the game. Treating us like some referee at a football game where your team is losing is a GREAT way to make sure your GM does NOT have a good time, and if your GM doesn't have a good time, there's no game.
Unless you're paying your GM to run your game for you, it's your job to make sure he has as much fun as he provides for you, and if you can't do that, go play Skyrim.
Reading through the rules, I came to the conclusion that the DM had terrible players at the table. But it's just his words. We don't see the whole picture. I mostly see a DM get pushed over the edge.
THe rules were posted by one of the players, and not the GM. Redditors read through his post history and got after him, and then he dirty deleted the post. I think it's safe to say that we got enough of the picture.
I had moments of that, but threats of violence are beyond the pale
Mad respects for actually looking into these rules instead of pointing and laughing like I've seen countless other content creators do. It's clear the players never respected or appreciated the DM and then they retaliated (although harshly) due to them not paying attention, not caring, not showing up, and getting too drunk to play. I found it so odd how many other long time DnD content creators couldn't realize that these rules were created by problem players and not a control freak DM.
says a lot, doesn't it?
I've found this 44 rules post to be a effective litmus test for table top RUclipsr, those unable to read between the lines and realized that there is a major problem with the players or at least some of them are often not worth the time of day
Good to see a sympathetic take. Actually in the original reddit post I believe it was taken down because everyone was taking the DM's side, immediately calling out OP for just being bad to them. It's only once it hit youtube that things turned on the DM. Some of these rule are reasonable, some are obviously 'harsh but you pushed me here" and some are just...bad. My opinion was always just "A couple players are the main problem but everyone involved needs to sort themselves out." The players obviously were being jerks and pushed the DM here, but some of the rules are rancid even if made in anger.
Idk if this was extremely clashing styles, but some of the clap-back rules seem to be extreme versions of what was already at the table, which is worrying. Some of the earlier ones especially seem like just...styles I disagree with, like the RPing every roll involving speech or you fail instantly. I think the DM needs to find a new group/stop DMing for a while. and the players need to have a long self reflection before even thinking of playing D&D again.
Yeah to be fair, I think most people who checked it out must have only got through the first handful of rules. Especially on Twitter. After revisiting the Reddit post, the top comments were very understanding of the situation!
@@BobWorldBuilder very true, most I saw stopped somewhere in the teens or early 20's (though I didn't see many, I don't typically follow community drama)
I actually use variants (or at least more politely worded versions) of at least rules 18, 19, and 23. But my table rules (rules for behaviour at the table, as opposed to house rules which I consider mechanical rules variants) are discussed and explained to my players during session 0. Like others have said, this looks like a post from a DM who was being taken advantage of by their players and rather than recognizing that, one of the players decided to use Reddit to ridicule and disrespect them even further. The DM definitely could have handled the situation better, but the player sharing the rules is indicative of how they got to that point, IMHO.
Yeah, some of the rules could be done positively for sure. And I think most people who checked it out must have only got through the first handful of rules. Especially on Twitter. After revisiting the Reddit post, the top comments were very understanding of the situation!
18 actually has a good answer in the rules, though it's not displayed prominently: group checks. If it's something everyone is going to try, everyone rolls. If at least half succeed, you're good. Otherwise, the check fails.
Relatedly, both success and failure should still move the game forward. This one is tough, because it often requires quick thinking from the DM. If your rogue can't unlock a door, the game is just going to be stuck, so what else are the players to do but all make an attempt? Sometimes, "lose time, try again" is fine, but often that doesn't really contribute anything. "You get in, but you break the lock, which creates a loud *SNAP*. You hear rapid footsteps; someone heard you." Gives a punishment for failure, but doesn't halt the game. I'm really bad at that one; even that example took me like 5 minutes to think up
This whole thing sounds like a group of people who need to disband and join other social circles, with that last part being optional.
I love that this quickly descended from "I'm timing your turns" into "fight me immediately".
Bob is such a nice guy. Really constructive empathetic breakdown.
Bob does not only build worlds, he builds bridges between us and a healthier hobby.
Only 44? Talk about amateur.
There's still time!
Can't wait for the inevitable "my dm's 101 terrible house rules" post
@@BobWorldBuilder Actually the list is up to 2,610
IDK, I play RPGs that have less than 44 rules total !
Does a banlist really count as rules?
I think the "Hiatus" the DM was on was actually just the DM being done with the OP/their players antics, and they just pestered the DM enough to attempt to run again. Hence these rules being created.
That's 100% what happened.
In a nutshell: This whole thing can be rephrased to start with: 'This is what I want at my table, take it or leave it' followed by bunch of sensible expectations. The constant threat of extreme punishment is completely mitigated by how easy it is to avoid all of it by simply not being an asshole.
Finally. I guess it would be the Bob, the seemingly most empathic sounding DnD RUclipsr who would see that there is more to this gm's rules. Later rules clearly show some lore about how his games went and why he was so upset.
Thanks. Yeah, I think most people who checked it out must have only got through the first handful of rules. Especially on Twitter. After revisiting the Reddit post, the top comments were very understanding of the situation!
Idk. I caught on since rule two. "*If* you want harder combat". Clearly sounds like they were mocking him for easy combat when in reality he was holding off and fumbling rolls to help them, and then they complained once he actually hurt their characters.
For so many of these, I constantly catch myself saying "Yeah that seems fair... maybe we work on tone..."
For instance, I've come to establish a rule 0 expectation that I can cut you off of whatever substance you're consuming and take a break in session to allow you some time to sober up. I've had a few instances with alchohol causing problems at tables, so at this point I'm just trying to be gracious and not just out right ban it.
i always tell my players that a drink or two is fine, but no getting drunk at the table, and no coming to the table high or bringing drugs with you. we can have fun for sure, but that's not the sort of fun that lends itself to a nice respectful game environment. i also have at least one friend who is a recovering addict and don't want anyone bringing anything around that would make her uncomfortable.
Yep, I'm a DM and my 3 critiques were 1. tone and 2. Should have almost definitely removed someone from the game by now. Number 3., and my only real critique pointing at him over the players is that the impression i get is maybe expectations regarding the game's style and focus weren't established in a session zero or alternative out-of-game conversations.
Bob's advice was best though of you shouldn't be hanging out with these people who (based on this limited context) not only aren't your friends but it sounds like they are being mean and disrespectful to you/other players.
@@torrencewaespe8503 a game of drunk D&D (or high) appeals to me though I've never done one like that. But you really really need it to be a group thing, or at least everyone is on board. Being "the drunk person" at a D&D group full of sober or casually sipping people is just... disruptive at best, and often sad implications.
I banned it when I was still playing physical meetings. Now only playing online it's harder to do, and I'm lucky I never had to have a talk with someone who sounded visibly intoxicated.
But I mostly only play very long (like spanning multiple real life years) campaigns, and with the more engaging and "serious" approach to it, not the beer&pretzel approach. In the end, it really depend on the group, and how they want to play.
@@zane4218 I have done drunk Robo Rally. Can highly recommend :)
Repeat after me, fellow DMs: do not try to solve off-the-table problems with on-the-table solutions.
Depending on how off-the-table you're talking about, it can be done with some tact and communication.
For example I have a standing rule as a GM: unless force majeure, if you're absent from the next planned session I want to know it at least 48h hours before the session, and with suggestions on how to handle the absence of the character. If not, I might decide to play your character, or let another player play it, and I won't save it if something goes very bad and the character dies.
And I don't play D&D, there's usually no resurrection in the games we play.
But as with any table rule, I talk to my players first, and I explain why I do what I do. In this case, it's no my job as a GM to cover for you with additional work when you don't warn me about it. But if a player has special need, again we talk about it, as a group (I had a player with a on-call type of job, and we decided as a group to still play with him and made in advance plans on how to deal with that).
@@LiraeNoir sure, totally reasonable, but I don't see this as an example of handling an off the table problem in game. This is almost just a procedural question: how do we all agree to handle absent characters? That's totally normal and expected for a lot of group activities. If we're playing a sport, how do we handle uneven teams in case of a no-show, etc.
What I mean would be more akin to getting frustrated at a player that keeps cancelling last minute and then implementing a rule where last minute cancellations have their character lose XP or something like that. If it's an out of game problem you're having an issue with, like a character not respecting other player's time by no showing, the obvious solution is you need to pull that player aside and talk to them.
I think 90% of the time situations like the video occur, it's when the person running the group is too socially awkward to deal with the direct confrontation necessary, and the degree of separation by making the consequences in game just makes it easier for them for some reason. They feel like with enough penalties in the game, they can enforce good group behavior, and that just doesn't happen. Healthy confrontation is an important skill for a DM to learn though... it might be a harder row to hoe for those with social anxiety, but it just kinda comes with the territory.
For what it's worth, we usually did similar as you for that particular situation. Player could designate who they wanted to play their character, if not, it's the DM. You aren't going to be especially targeted or anything, but if you go down, you go down.
My friend and I (both of us DM DnD) read through these together and tried to read between the lines of what’s happening here and by the end we just felt terrible for that DM that are obviously at their wits end and I wanna just bring them into my game and give them a hug
I really love how your commentaries are empathetic and kind, and you can talk seriously about what seems to be a real trust and respect issue with those people.
There are so many outcomes that result in this DM just going home 😭
They should've just gone home a long time ago 🥲
I think that is the point. You either play the game how they wants
, or there is no game.
And given that the players may be playing for battling reasons, the players may actually be using these rules against him to get him to go home, and they are supported by rule 32, which allows players to rules-lawyer against other players, meaning two players can group up and use a rule that forces him to go home plus rule 32 to force him to go home when they are fed up with him, and maybe as a game.
@@iantaakalla8180 Right? How brain-dead ARE people, not to have understood that that was the entire point?
You said he shouldn’t have written the rules down but honestly it might have been the best move. I think it’s good to have a clear way to say “hey, we agreed none of this, you did it, you’re out of the group” especially when manipulation and gaslighting have happened before. It makes it harder for problem players to splinter the rest of the group.
Rules that solve most TTRPG issues: Communicate, have empathy, be kind to each other.
This whole escapade has just turned into an interesting litmus test for me to see if content creators are more DM or Player sympathetic.
Remember: saying things like there's no bad Players, only bad DMs leads to situations like this, and is just......needlessly mean to people who are *trying*.
@@robinmohamedally7587 bad take that people who are misguided about there only being bad dms and not players have to be autistic.
I say this from a genuine attempt to understand, but is there a problem with being player sympathetic in the first place? I’ve been both player and DM, and I’ve enjoyed both roles, but there’s definitely a trend of both bad players AND bad DMs in this hobby. Being DM sympathetic is good, but being player sympathetic is also good, and separating them into inherently different categories that you need to throw a coin into one or the other feels silly at best and harmful at worst. Both sides need sympathy when something unpleasant happens, because one can’t play DnD without the other
@@thefisherking2268 ....I agree? I never said to choose one or the other, I just said this has been an interesting way to see whose perspective the person discussing the list goes for first. Hence "more" DM or Player sympathetic. Like as a DM I try as hard as I can to make my players happy. But I also feel for DMs getting a lot of blame granted on them for not being perfect.
The second part is because, quite frankly, it's a saying I hear a *lot* in the space, and frankly a lot of people even in these comments share that opinion.
The first syllable is simply "bun". Bundoora is a northern suburb of Melbourne. The group is not in the Queensland town of Bundoora because there are fewer than 20 people living there and it doesn't have a secondary college.
Fun facts!
Yeah I picked up on the Aussie flavour of those "rules".
I'm surprised there weren't a few uses of the C-word in there as well!
@@pauligrossinoz There probably were LOL Bob was clearly sanitizing the f*ck out of it heh
I'm really grateful to my friend group, because I was becoming the problem player and they actually sat me down and had a talk with me. I wasn't the only one making mistakes, but I was definitely the one who was making it less fun for everyone. It was hard to hear, but I needed that conversation. And now I'm working on those root problems that are making me the problem character, which has in turn made the sessions a lot more fun.
Sadly, it sounds like either the DM feels like they can't have these sorts of conversations with the group, or they tried and it didn't go well, and now the DM feels like the only solution is to give back the same energy they've been given. Not really a justification, but just a sad thing to see happen.
Many of the rules were worded in such a hostile way but comes from something real DMs have to deal with. When i read these most i thought were too harsh, but man. The dm said some stuff im sure many of us have thought before. Some players are just the absolute fucking worst.
I felt disrespected by my former group. I had made a simple request. It was ignored. I came up with a cheap solution. They refused. I offered to cover that cheap solution. They refused. When I asked why they didn't wish to make one change for the quality of life for me and EVERYONE ELSE, they said "it's not a priority for us rn."
Later when i was a little snide about their inability to be cooperative, THAT hurt their feelings. They asked for me to apologize. I refused.
Guess who was the bad guy?
Geez.
Comments sections on RUclips I've seen actually were on the GM's side. And I'm on their side too. The fact that the original post was deleted says it all. The players are clearly abusive and wanted to sick the internet on them and then deleted it when it backfired and ppl were defending the GM
Yeah, I think most people who checked it out-- on Twitter especially-- must have only got through the first handful of rules. After revisiting the Reddit post, the top comments were very understanding of the situation!
@@BobWorldBuilder I like some of your points though. As a forever DM is was so on the side of the DM but some of your points made me stop and think. Certainly the players are poor but the DM has maybe some improvements to make too.
I was half-expecting the last rule to be something on the lines of "I quite! you can GM yourselves"
It really should have been!
Yes, quite
I suspect that should have been the first and only rule
Realistically we know these players aren't going to shape up, so the rules pretty much are an "I quit" but with the exact reason why written out in advance so they can't say they'ret was no warning.
Rule 45: If you punch me in the face again, Chad, I'm banning you.
Rule 46: If you keep vandalizing my house, or hurting my pet or my family, I'm subtracting XP from your character.
Rule 47: That thing you did the other day wasn't OK, if it happens again, I'm calling the police.
Rule 48: Why can't we all just get along?
Rule 49: *sobs uncontrollably*
Apparently OSQ actually talked to someone from this group. They said the DM's screen got ruined 'cause someone spilled wine on it, among other things.
Did we ever get the full details on that? I know he ended that stream he was talking about that on prematurely, but I don't think he's ever followed up with more information from that.
@@ryangale3757 Not sure. The stream isn't even available anymore because he accidentally doxxed the person.
@@Scorpious187 Yeah, I remember that happening, which is unfortunate. Do you remember any of the other details he shared about that reply? I didn't get any and have been wondering ever since.
10/10 for swear word replacements, Bob.
Well played.
+
I lost it at "chasing sheep"
I was a bit disappointed that frog never made it in. 😂
It is the third video I have seen on this topic, and the common factor that I notice is that the youtubers, being DMS too, end up empathizing with the DM and the background of the rules.
1) This sounds like a group I would 86 as of yesterday. 2) I love how Bob finds funny alternatives for the four letter words. I'm one who swears casually with zero shame. But for Bob, this is totally on brand.
I assume the way this gm would hand out extra exhaustion points would be quite cruel, but in general, I do like using this rule healthily in my game. I currently only hand out extra exhaustion from traveling, like traveling faster than usual or traveling in dangerous terrain. I like to present it like a challenge or obstacle that they can rp out, like "it's super hot, what do?", "to progress to have to rock climb or fly across a gap, what do?", or "difficult terrain is slowing you guys down or tiring you out, what do?". players can rp out a solution, like "I have the outlander background and I'm familiar with this terrain", "ranger favored terrain/abilities", "I ride on a mount", "I just go extra cautious at the cost of time" etc and if it's believable, the challenge is trivial to them and nothing happens, but if they can't come up with anything, then I allow them to make some sort of skill check (typically low DC) to brute force it. fail the skill check, then a common result is exhaustion.
there are written modules out there with this mecanics. like Tomb of annihilation. They even have the instant death traps mentioned in the rules
@@SwissStrawberry yes, in fact, I'm pretty sure 5th edition is the only edition with no instant death traps. Never played fourth, so i may be incorrect
I really like this type of content where you weigh in on how you would handle things. A fun game my son and I play is looking at the different DM subreddits, reading the problems other DMs are asking the group, and talk about how we would solve those problems. It could make for a fun reoccurring series, perhaps? As a new DM, he appreciates experiences like that where he can see people talk through examples of solving a problem like how to deal with murder hobos in a balanced way, etc.
The original roleplaying! Very useful tool for thinking through different situations.
Remember son if you want to hit up that bong mid-session you have to ask permission first ok?
Im so glad that finally someone sees the background pain behind these rules and not just humiliates this GM.....
It is quite obvious that best case scenario everyone was horrible or enablers. Worst case the players are horrible and the DM has just been pushed to a breaking point. You have to remember the original post was done by a player with minimal context. The only reason you would not further elaborate is due to more context making the player look bad. If it would have made the DM look worse the player wouldn’t have deleted the posts. The post being deleted is why I don’t think it was a troll. You also have to remember it was the player who used the term “hiatus” not the DM. The DM may have just plain quit.
A lot of RUclipsr and people on other social media sites seem to be assuming that the DM is the issue. But the problem is we are relying on the original poster to not have changed the order of the rules. Also that the rules were written as the DM stated them.
I have a hunch that the DM had a very antagonistic approach to the players which led to them pulling all kinds of shenanigans to intentionally get under his skin. Just a totally bad situation all around.
Kind of like how if you’re a nice but dorky people leave you alone but if you’re an opinionated alpha nerd you get wedgies.
Side note to something you said - most board gaming groups I've been a part of have generally employed the rule that all actions can be undone prior to declaring your turn over provided that they don't reveal any previously hidden information (e.g. card draws, dice results etc.)
Most sources come down to the idea that he didn't want to run any game at all, and exhausted all options to say hard "no" before turning full-on passive-aggressive. In which case, he probably should have just blocked them (probably even if they are friends out of the game... If they ignore his boundaries, it's a beyond D&D problem). It's more complicated if he legitimately can't (they are his family members, roommates, colleagues, or something), but no D&D manifesto would resolve the problem.
Yeah, it has certainly gone too far
The most entertaining part of this video is Bob censoring the bad words 😂
He does get quite creative! 😂
The hardest part is when the problem player is your best mate. He was a DnD nerd in what was mostly a beginners campaign, so all the little complaints he made about us forgetting class features or not knowing our leveling path were swept under the rug. It also didn't help that he was the most helpful out of any of us, with always the perfect spell for a situation. Eventually push came to shove and he agreed to sit the rest of the campaign out, which was very much for the best, we enjoyed the rest of our beginner campaign, and he joined an advanced table.
@BobWorldBuilder - I definitely agree with you that this “44 rules DnD Reddit post” is a call for help from a drowning DM. I do find it interesting that most “players” were happy to dunk on a DM asking for respect (although in a “too little, too late” fashion, assuming they didn’t try to address these issues before), but something that should have also been mentioned that the DM is also a person. Every Redditor who was happy to dog pile this DM rather than see the DM as a person is feeding the “DM vs. players” hate.
This is why I click your videos.
I had no interest in this topic, completely avoided it, didn't read the list. When I saw you had read the list, I trusted you'd be fair minded and... Well, you were.
This GM needs a hug and new players. Probably new friends.
17:10 note: on tiwtter when this was posted only the first 22 rules were shown in a screnshot of it. when ppl asked for other half then HOURS later that person that posted the tween posted the other half... yeah thats a sign of on purpose lighting the bonfire more. so most ppl only knew the first half then the others all do to that person on purpose held back the other half.
Remember... Reddit is the worst. The literal worst. The worst style of website, which holds the worst, most insufferable human beings.
I don’t know why people still go to reddit for any reason, let alone DnD. Every single piece of advice I’ve seen from there is worthless, and the creators who stem from reddit are also just as worthless.
You are better off watching a few actual play videos and then going in fresh faced than reading a bunch of ‘helpful’ beginner tips on Reddit and RUclips. The best advice RUclipsrs are Cody and Seth Sorkowsky, since they both have pretty grounded, reasonable perspectives.
Unlike youtube commentors who are all very reasonable and don't stir up drama.
What is your experience? I've seen pretty typical stuff for a forum. I use it look up info. Maybe you're going to specific forums that are problematic? There is no singular reddit, they are a platform for individual forums. Like youtube has many channels.
@@adaroben1104 the statistics say otherwise.
Statistically speaking. Redditors are, liberal, male, American, and young.
There are other people on there for sure. But the VAST majority are that.
And boy are they insufferable. There is a reason the Redditor and Reddit moderator stereotype exists. A reason why Redditors, are made fun of on a mass scale. Not RUclipsrs, not facebookers… Redditors
@@coryburns4309 Where's these stats, wonder what else it says?
@@adaroben1104 dude… Google. Reddit demographics. You’re about to feel silly. You know what’s funny. The whole world laughs at redditors. And you’re just trying to cling onto Reddit like it’s not a laughing stock.
Want the stats ok…
64% of redditors are between 18-29.
63% of Redditor are male.
70% white Americans
And majority liberal.
But that’s just pew research. What do they know? lol
God this was cathartic to type out and put you in your place. Why? Because you’re acting just like the Redditors that are mocked
I think this "situation" not only applies to DnD. It's a lesson for life itself, the DM was clearly damaged from previous groups and also please, for the love of god people. Talk with each other, speak about what pains you about something, etc
it's from the same group. This was his ultimatum to the SAME group he's been playing with, after a hiatus, and them wanting him back. CHrist, man, read the post, it's right there
What would Matt Mercer do? That is unanswerable because at the first bathroom break Matt takes, Marissa would tell the offender that if they don't cut it out, someone is getting a throat punch. Unless Laura Bailey is also there because Laura would switch to her Mama Bear/Batman voice and bring the offender close to PTSD with more foul language than Samuel Jackson playing a sailor in a Tarantino joint. Then she and Marissa would fist bump.
As it turns out, they did have a player at the beginning of Campaign 1 who became problematic. We don't know what conversations were had, but this person quietly exited between sessions c. episode 27, and never returned.
Tell me you do not play D&D without telling me you do not actually play D&D.
@@JKevinCarrier
Twenty-seven sessions?
*27.*
As a friend put it, this sounds like a forever GM who is extremely burnt out with a very specific list of grievances with his players presented as a list of ‘rules’.
Also worth noting is that this isn't the DM posting this, its one of the players. so the actual tone might be different.
This is harsher than my first reaction.
My first gut reaction to this was there's been a near terminal, terminal failure in communication and expectation. There's two, three, different natures of game wanted. Some wanted beer and pretzels, drinking and social fun. Some wanted more a game game, play, combat, conflict, skill use. I think one wanted a story, a story to be told and explored. More so the GM on the last part.
It's easy to jump on the guy who felt it was necessary, it was much harder for some to ask why it was felt, appeared to be necessary. If not impossible.
Bingo, the GM is not making a campaign for the players and the players don't seem to recognize the expectations of the GM. Plus a lot of poor behavior, some likely on both sides, but the players seem to be bad house guests in general while the GM seems to be poor at resolving actual social conflicts and instead resorts to angry dad parenting by messing with their toys. I wonder how they got together in the first place...
The first time I read the list I thought “This seems reasonable, I know where this DM is coming from”.
I would love to know what inspired each rule
I saw so many videos and posts about this that I just ignored them but then YOU made a video and I knew it would be cool to watch. No bias unless for the square... 🤣
First time I DMed the group would get up every 5 minutes to smoke and smoke outside for 20 minutes at a time (I was the only nonsmoker so I stayed inside because smoke gives me headaches). They would come back in and continue on their conversation they had outside and I sat there until they were done. Everything I did they argued about. I told them the prices of stuff in the town and they argued with me since they all looked up prices and said "The book says it is this much". They argued about how much money they should get for the job. Again each time they would stop as soon as one said "Cigarette break" and they would all get up leaving me there. A player got done shopping and ran off by himself to the tomb and just said "I am there now" I told him the rest of the party was talking to the guide and he, the player, didn't know the way. The guy sat there and rolled to shoot an arrow in the air so while I was talking I heard him saying his rolls out loud. He ended up rolling a nat 20 and killing himself. So he loudly laughed and got everyone to stop to laugh and talk about it. In the end the 4 hour session was more like 15 maybe 20 minutes of playing and the rest was them taking smoke breaks and talking over me. They didn't even leave the town. This was my first time DMing so I went home broke down and cried over how much of a failure I was. They asked for me to try again and I refused. It took years before I DMed again and the group I DM for now say I am their favorite DM. I even ended up DM for the first group's teenagers. The teenagers tried to get their parents to play with them since the teenagers love it so much... it was the same as before. Completely disinterested in what I was saying and acting bored the whole time. Yeah, I think I wasn't the best DM but I don't think I was that bad at it. It is best to know when to leave a game. This DM should have left a long time ago. Some groups are not the best with each other because they feed off of each other.
Rule 29 was the first rule that made me go "oh these players are kinda just ***holes"
Bob, I'm sure you have 45 positive rules for players to help the Director.
14:50 "Don't [forking] order food randomly" is the funniest f-word substitute you came up with from a lot of brilliant ones 😂 thanks for lighting up the mood in a respectful way
Also worth noting, it was not the DM who posted the rules on reddit but one of their players. The backlash the player got made them remove the post.
Commentary:
Rule 1: The spells are not that hard to use -- the ones that actually require much reading are all the weird utility/non-combat spells, none of which you'll be casting in combat. Furthermore, abstract distances are a *terrible* idea for D&D, a system which pretends to be good for use in theater of the mind but is clearly and universally designed for use on a tactical grid. If it's an actual problem, which is easier? (1) set up a simple timer, or (2) *rewrite every spell in the game* ?
Rule 5: They're not making persuasion or intimidation checks in combat often, and if they do it's one total line of dialog. "I want to intimidate him into surrendering." "Okay. What do you do?" "I pull my greataxe out of his friend's corpse, turn to him, and say, 'You wanna be next?'" "Okay, roll..."
Rule 7: Again, squares. Do not pretend D&D works anywhere near as well on anything that isn't an actual map.
Rule 14 (and a couple others): Many players do not respond to carrots. I do not much make use of sticks myself, but there needs to be a point where someone has to be motivated in a way they actually care about. From what this seems, the players have ignored any and all sticks.
Rule 15: "don't be drunk or high at the table" seems like a reasonable expectation for human interaction.