Subscribed, also, there are people in this world who will work for lumber, don't need an hourly, need lumber for an chicken house and also a dog kennel my wife has politely asked for. So I made a deal with a friend of mine who owns an old time mill powered by a Detroit diesel that powers a quite large circular blade. We get his orders done, then we get my boards for the honey do list. Perfect! And actually, I feel like I get the better end of the deal, I mean my friend has taught me more than I ever dreamed about creating lumber. From tree in the woods to corner stacking boards! What a feeling of independence making boards gives a man, amazing. Great video!
Beginning woodworkers often come out and help me cut trees and saw logs into lumber just to see how its done. Once they have some proficient, I trade lumber for work helping me.
If THIS Ole timer can completely understand This Master Class Lesson in Quarter Sawing.. Well.. One ..Its a Miracle and Two.. Mr George put together a most Thoughtful and unique way of explaining through outstanding props using a section of tree and showing you in a concise way how to judge and cut the log in sections in the quickest way to give you that percise vertical grain and expose fleck for the best quarter sawing results utilizing a majority of log with the least amount of waste.Outstanding!
I watched this video and my dad and I just milled up about 2000bf of quartersawn white oak lumber today. It's a manual mill so the labor savings this video/method provided was appreciated
I have watched a few video on this subject and never understood it very well. I don't think I am an expert, but feel I could talk to someone and understand it more. So far your the best teacher on this subject. Thank you very much.
Thanks for the nice comment. This is a hard subject to understand. To school yourself try this, it helped me to understand quarter sawing... take a round cutoff from the end of a log, then with a marker sketch out the circular grain pattern of the log end. then with a different color marker sketch out the possible quarter sawed boards. this helps you get the cuts straight in your mind before cutting the log.
Thanks, that was a lot easier to absorb than watching the same process on a full size log. Which leads to better retention and recall. AAA+++ Plus your presentation was well thought out and very enjoyable. Thanks, again.
Thank you Mr Wood, what a thoughtful and thorough video. I’ll watch it 3 or 4 times and maybe grasp a fraction of the knowledge you possess. I imagine we would learn just cleaning up your shop for you, thank you for making this video : )
Fantastic tutorial on quarter sawing using the two different techniques! I'm glad I'm only milling for my own personal use and don't have to waste so much wood because of the labor costs involved. Because of that, I will only be quarter sawing for my own specific projects, making the extra effort worth my time. Thank you sir!
Fantastic! This video was an eye-opener about sawmilling. It's astonishing to watch the skillful processing of these large logs. This video is exceptionally clear and well-produced. I can't wait for your next upload. Keep producing such fantastic content!
George, I watched your whole video because I found the comparison valuable as a new sawyer. Thanks for taking the time to educate. I am not aware of any videos that analyze the two methods directly. The thumbnail expressed the intent of your video clearly.
Thanks for the nice comment. I have several other video's on sawmilling and using a very large chainsaw mill to cut lumber and large slabs that you may be interested in. Press George Wood of Texas by the title to see them. happy sawing.
Man, I learned a lot. I've got some logs laying in the yard that I plan on sawing up. Never done it before and I'm searching on how to do it. This showed me quite a bit! Thanks for taking the time.
Watched your video because I love antique furniture made with tiger oak and now I understand about the additional expense of furniture made with tiger oak thanks so much
That was a very well done explanation on quartering logs on a bandmill. Having the visual is a must. I learned this process 35 years ago when I bought my first Wood Mizer. And I've been explaining the process to customers ever since, often with a stick in the dirt. (your way is better) My general rule is the log should be around 21" at the small end to make it worth while. On really big logs around 30" I actually find I can quarter saw almost as fast as I can grade saw. Once you make the first few wide cuts the rest of the cuts are generally 12" or less allowing me to increase my speed rate dramatically while not putting as much stress on the blade. On a side note, have you every tried living off of minimum wage ? I believe in Texas it's $7.25. Or $58 a day. $290 a week. You run a sawmill. There are no easy jobs around a sawmill. Which one of those jobs would you do for $58 a day?
more efficient with more lumber of the same size. great idea. if I ever need to get larger pieces, I'll need to charge more for the extra labor. Great tutorial, thanks
Great video. I like the way you explained the shortfall of using bandsaws with a short throat height. The second method suits most bandsaw mills. Thanks for sharing.
I finally got a chance to assemble my mill about a month ago and have milled just about every evening since then. It was all pine for my fence up until this week when I cut down a 30" box elder and milled slabs out of it. Friday I cut down 2 30"+ red oaks and I'm going to try my hardwood introduction by quarter sawing a 30" x 8' section today which will max out my mill. I'm going to watch your video on cutting a log to fit a mill. I own a tree service and have a collection of larger logs so none of these trees were cut down for the wood. Thanks!
Thank you so very much for the information. I restored a vintage circle saw sawmill years ago and only hobby cut at times on it. I am now planning to restore a vintage northeast lobster boat and plan to cut a new keel for it out of white oak and quarter saw cut the keel lumber. This video helps me in calculating the best location to cut the keel out of the log cant. Thanks again and I plan to continue watching your videos.
Excellent demo. Thank you. You answered a lot of my questions. Demonstrating on cookies worked well. They may be heavy, but not near as heavy as a 30 inch diameter log 12 feet long.
Used this method on a 30" and 27" red oak x 8' logs new to sawmilling it worked great. Have an ez boardwalk 40, home made 40" log arch and a homemade 3 point hitch hydraulic winch with over 500 ' of cable pull the wind blown over logs out of inaccessible ravines in WV . Greatly appreciated the wealth of knowledge from these videos keep up the good work thanks
Thank You! I learned a lot. I have been wanting to 1/4 saw on my smaller mill. The old way would have been too much time. I now look forward to trying your method.
I do appreciate your thorough explanations. For a sawmill wanna-be, myself, I often ponder ways to set a log on the mill without a forklift, come-along, leveraging or jacking. Winch, perhaps. I'm sure there is a simple method, I'd enjoy the confidence in knowing an easy and efficient way before purchasing one. Thanks again for sharing your knowledge.
Thanks George for the great video. I'm in the island state of Tasmania, Australia where we have Tasmanian Oak, a eucalyptus. It grows on my father's 80 acre property. We've had issues with it warping straight off the bandsaw mill. So my Dad and I are going to see if quarter sawing prevents this. Cheers.
Now i understand quarter sawing much better. No expert here by any means, it just was always confusing to me. Its like quarter round molding, out of a closet rod 1-3/8" round and quarter it, BUT the direction of the grain of the wood is everything, as far as strength and not warping. TY George great video you made it simple tyo understand. From SE Texas Bear
Swing mills have their usefulness in cutting 2x4 & 2x6's. their limitation is how big a saw blade they have since you can only cut boards about 1 1/2" less than the radius of the blade. Thanks for the great comment.
Ty for sharing! I came up with a way as well. You start by cutting 1" off the center of the log. Then take the larger section and cut 2" back from your last cut . Then flip the log cutting a 4" section from the side of the log right and left. This depends on size of the log then continue to cut the remainder quarter cut. The other side Very much the same other then you start 1" from your last cut.
Great video! It also clearly illustrates the advantage of being able to mill bigger logs on limited capacity mills. My milling experience is mostly limited to milling slabs into framing lumber, and it is very aggravating when the initial milling wasn't done with those considerations in mind, leaving a lot less useable lumber. Great methodology - thank you sir.
Did a nice job in the video in presenting your information I just want you to know that I got a book that shows this that’s very old so you’re not the first one that came up with it but I think you explained it eloquently
Just got a bandsaw mill and I'm in the process of setting it up I appreciate you sharing this knowledge. I'm drawing up a sketch to remind me 🙂 great comparison on the different log size results Very informative and fun to watch! Subscribed and looking forward to more Thank you
I have watched sawmill programs and been totally baffled as to when and why they kept flipping and turning the log for what seemed no good reason. I did not realise they had a reason and a plan as to what the were trying to produce. I will go back to these programs and see if I can now make more sense of what they are doing.
Use the throw away corner pieces to produce rift sawn wood with is really useful for table legs. The grain is straight on two sides visible of the leg.
Thanks this was helpful. On why they did it the old way, If we are talking 18th century I suspect they were quartering large logs using wedges (splitting rather than sawing) to make it easier to get wood onto the sawmill using human power and to deal with the amount of cutting power they had available.
You did a great job explaining the process. Another old way on a circle mill is to put your pie-shaped pieces on the carriage with the point of the pie up and centered then slab off, it'll be about 90% quarterback. I run a circle mill and that's how I do it whenever I need to get quartersawn. It works real well, I'm not sure how you hold it on a band mill, maybe put a 2×4 under the pointed side until you have made a couple of cuts then just turn over. Something to think about. Lee Gibbs sawyer, gunsmith, and machinist
In woodworking and sawing there is often more than one way to achieve results. There is a difference in how you would hold a log for quarter sawing on a round blade mill various a bandsaw mills various a chain saw cutting. My normal routine is to try all the ways I can think of then chose the one that is the most efficient. Thanks for the great comment.
Good demo. One thing you need to consider with a band saw is the depth of cut (throat) on a lot of band saws is only 8 to 10", so quartering a log more than 20" diameter on the mill isn't feasible. I've quartered many 40+ inch diameter sycamores with a chain saw just to maximize the quarter sawn grain. Worth it, I assure you! That angled grain from the corners is "rift" sawn, and furniture makers will also pay a premium for that, because it shows the same grain pattern on all 4 sides of a square table leg.
George you are a great presentor on this subject, learned a ton from this video and I don't even wood work, but you did an excellent job. Ps you could of done the same on a 15 in slab as your large piece and used a 10 in slab as the smaller for the example, would of demonstrate the same principle, and would of been easier for you to manage the piece for the video. It is scalar for the discussion and reason why! Looking forward to your other videos, so we'll done George! Steven Columbus Michigan
Thank you George, no one has ever made quarter sawing more understandable.
Thanks for the nice comment.
It's always nice when an old-tmer takes the time to share what they know about something. Thank you mister.
Subscribed, also, there are people in this world who will work for lumber, don't need an hourly, need lumber for an chicken house and also a dog kennel my wife has politely asked for. So I made a deal with a friend of mine who owns an old time mill powered by a Detroit diesel that powers a quite large circular blade. We get his orders done, then we get my boards for the honey do list. Perfect!
And actually, I feel like I get the better end of the deal, I mean my friend has taught me more than I ever dreamed about creating lumber. From tree in the woods to corner stacking boards! What a feeling of independence making boards gives a man, amazing.
Great video!
Beginning woodworkers often come out and help me cut trees and saw logs into lumber just to see how its done. Once they have some proficient, I trade lumber for work helping me.
@@georgewoodoftexas3509 It is exciting working a mill.. Thanks for replying and I hope everything is well with you and yours. Good day.
Appreciate your time and your explanation.
I can see the time savings in your demonstration.
George, thank you for taking the time to educate the sawyer community.
If THIS Ole timer can completely understand This Master Class Lesson in Quarter Sawing.. Well.. One ..Its a Miracle and Two.. Mr George put together a most Thoughtful and unique way of explaining through outstanding props using a section of tree and showing you in a concise way how to judge and cut the log in sections in the quickest way to give you that percise vertical grain and expose fleck for the best quarter sawing results utilizing a majority of log with the least amount of waste.Outstanding!
I watched this video and my dad and I just milled up about 2000bf of quartersawn white oak lumber today. It's a manual mill so the labor savings this video/method provided was appreciated
I have watched a few video on this subject and never understood it very well. I don't think I am an expert, but feel I could talk to someone and understand it more. So far your the best teacher on this subject. Thank you very much.
Thanks for the nice comment. This is a hard subject to understand. To school yourself try this, it helped me to understand quarter sawing...
take a round cutoff from the end of a log, then with a marker sketch out the circular grain pattern of the log end. then with a different color marker sketch out the possible quarter sawed boards. this helps you get the cuts straight in your mind before cutting the log.
probably one of the best explanations I have seen on this
The Most Awesome Explanation-Demonstration About Quarter Sawing Lumber !!!!
Still over my head but it's late . Will watch again in the morning after coffee .
Great video. Easy to understand. Much more efficient cutting style.
Great explanation!
Thanks for the time and much energy you gave to us!!!
Thank you for your trouble. It doesn’t get better in explanation. Keepin it simple, and not over complicating it, made it enjoyable.❤️🇺🇸
Sir, thank you for the tip on quarter sawing. I’m going to remember this method.
Your welcome, hope it helped to understand this method.
Thanks, that was a lot easier to absorb than watching the same process on a full size log. Which leads to better retention and recall. AAA+++ Plus your presentation was well thought out and very enjoyable. Thanks, again.
This is probably the best quarter sawn video out there!!
Thinks, keep up the good woodworking
George this video was VERY informative for me I thought I knew what quarter sawn meant, now I know for sure thank you!
Thank you Mr Wood, what a thoughtful and thorough video. I’ll watch it 3 or 4 times and maybe grasp a fraction of the knowledge you possess. I imagine we would learn just cleaning up your shop for you, thank you for making this video : )
Fantastic tutorial on quarter sawing using the two different techniques! I'm glad I'm only milling for my own personal use and don't have to waste so much wood because of the labor costs involved. Because of that, I will only be quarter sawing for my own specific projects, making the extra effort worth my time. Thank you sir!
Thanks George. That was well done. I finally understand quarter sawn and how to do it.
Watching you is like watching my grandpa explain what he was doing when I was a kid. This is wonderful.
Fantastic! This video was an eye-opener about sawmilling. It's astonishing to watch the skillful processing of these large logs. This video is exceptionally clear and well-produced. I can't wait for your next upload. Keep producing such fantastic content!
Thank you, learned a lot. You laid it out very straightforward
George, I watched your whole video because I found the comparison valuable as a new sawyer. Thanks for taking the time to educate. I am not aware of any videos that analyze the two methods directly. The thumbnail expressed the intent of your video clearly.
Thanks for the nice comment. I have several other video's on sawmilling and using a very large chainsaw mill to cut lumber and large slabs that you may be interested in. Press George Wood of Texas by the title to see them. happy sawing.
You've cleared up a lot of questions that I had. Thank you.
Everything I know about quarter sawing lumber is in this video.
Thanks
Great video. I’m a newbie and it made this term quartersawn understandable to me. Thank you.
Man, I learned a lot. I've got some logs laying in the yard that I plan on sawing up. Never done it before and I'm searching on how to do it. This showed me quite a bit! Thanks for taking the time.
Thanks for the nice comment.
Thank you so much for explaining this! I’ve never understood how quarter sawn wood was made!
Came across this when trying to find out how to get rid of a body. You wouldn't think it would be helpful, but it was a great help. Thanks so much!
Excellent information . Well done ! Thank You Sir
Your videos are the most informative and helpful
Watched your video because I love antique furniture made with tiger oak and now I understand about the additional expense of furniture made with tiger oak thanks so much
Best explanation/demonstration I have seen of the quarter sawn concept
Great job George. Perfectly explained
Excellent tutorial I’ve been doing the same simply because my saw has the smaller throat. Thanks for taking the time to share!
Excellent instructor, I understood every word. Thanks.
Very nice presentation George, very helpful, and thank you for the effort you put into this!
Great vlog young fella! I got an education this evening, much appreciated...😊
That was a very well done explanation on quartering logs on a bandmill. Having the visual is a must. I learned this process 35 years ago when I bought my first Wood Mizer. And I've been explaining the process to customers ever since, often with a stick in the dirt. (your way is better) My general rule is the log should be around 21" at the small end to make it worth while. On really big logs around 30" I actually find I can quarter saw almost as fast as I can grade saw. Once you make the first few wide cuts the rest of the cuts are generally 12" or less allowing me to increase my speed rate dramatically while not putting as much stress on the blade.
On a side note, have you every tried living off of minimum wage ? I believe in Texas it's $7.25. Or $58 a day. $290 a week. You run a sawmill. There are no easy jobs around a sawmill. Which one of those jobs would you do for $58 a day?
Yep ,just a good Ole capitalist from Texas,$15.00 bucks an hour woo hoo, don't think about the low wage earners trying to live
Thank you for sharing your wisdom,I’m guessing you have been at it for a lot of years.
more efficient with more lumber of the same size. great idea. if I ever need to get larger pieces, I'll need to charge more for the extra labor. Great tutorial, thanks
George, I am a newcomer to your site. You are a clever man, a very interesting subject. Well done.
Thanks for the kind words, keep watching more to come. Because of the many things I do, I only have time to produce about one video a month.
Great video. I like the way you explained the shortfall of using bandsaws with a short throat height. The second method suits most bandsaw mills. Thanks for sharing.
I finally got a chance to assemble my mill about a month ago and have milled just about every evening since then. It was all pine for my fence up until this week when I cut down a 30" box elder and milled slabs out of it. Friday I cut down 2 30"+ red oaks and I'm going to try my hardwood introduction by quarter sawing a 30" x 8' section today which will max out my mill. I'm going to watch your video on cutting a log to fit a mill. I own a tree service and have a collection of larger logs so none of these trees were cut down for the wood.
Thanks!
keep up the good work.
Here's the Quarter Saw Savant in action. Thank you for sharing.
This is gold and just what I have been looking for thank you
Thank you for sharing your knowledge and video.
Very, very, good video NOW, Go get yourself a Cold One, you've earned it my friend.
You get the award for the best comment in weeks. Thanks
Thank you for posting this video. I am getting into milling and this is the video I needed to see to maximize the beauty of some oak I have.😁
Thank you so very much for the information. I restored a vintage circle saw sawmill years ago and only hobby cut at times on it. I am now planning to restore a vintage northeast lobster boat and plan to cut a new keel for it out of white oak and quarter saw cut the keel lumber. This video helps me in calculating the best location to cut the keel out of the log cant. Thanks again and I plan to continue watching your videos.
Thanks very much for the nice comment and keep up the woodworking.
All wannabe utube cookie seekers need to watch and learn from this perfect video.
Excellent demo. Thank you. You answered a lot of my questions. Demonstrating on cookies worked well. They may be heavy, but not near as heavy as a 30 inch diameter log 12 feet long.
Thank you, I've built things out of cornerstone lumber but really never know how they achieved that. Good job of explaining it
Great information,going to make a table top, thank you.from Cape Bretoner Canada
Used this method on a 30" and 27" red oak x 8' logs new to sawmilling it worked great. Have an ez boardwalk 40, home made 40" log arch and a homemade 3 point hitch hydraulic winch with over 500 ' of cable pull the wind blown over logs out of inaccessible ravines in WV . Greatly appreciated the wealth of knowledge from these videos keep up the good work thanks
Thanks for the nice comment.
Thank you George! This video is a big help and I appreciate you taking the time to explain this as well as you did. Makes so much sense now.
I did the last method for my master's piece. Went out great.
Great information. Really appreciate the experience from you guys that have been doing this for a long time. Thank you sir!!!
Learned a ton. Canting the log into four pieces makes since. Thanks 🙏
This was a great help I am definitely doing this next time I quarter saw ...Thank You!!
Thank you for the great lesson on an easier way to cut quarter sawn boards. A lot of my logs are bigger than 40" across
Thanks for the explanation George. I've got some cedar and sycamore that are 27"+ and this will help us get the most out of it.
Great info. I’m new and this was really interesting. I didn’t know quarter sawn was more stable. I just thought it looked better is all. Thanks!
Thank You! I learned a lot. I have been wanting to 1/4 saw on my smaller mill. The old way would have been too much time. I now look forward to trying your method.
Thank you George Wood! I will use your technique this week when doing my first quarter sawing!
I do appreciate your thorough explanations. For a sawmill wanna-be, myself, I often ponder ways to set a log on the mill without a forklift, come-along, leveraging or jacking. Winch, perhaps. I'm sure there is a simple method, I'd enjoy the confidence in knowing an easy and efficient way before purchasing one. Thanks again for sharing your knowledge.
Just trying to help, as others have helped me understand sawmilling over the years
Thanks George for the great video. I'm in the island state of Tasmania, Australia where we have Tasmanian Oak, a eucalyptus. It grows on my father's 80 acre property. We've had issues with it warping straight off the bandsaw mill. So my Dad and I are going to see if quarter sawing prevents this. Cheers.
Now i understand quarter sawing much better. No expert here by any means, it just was always confusing to me. Its like quarter round molding, out of a closet rod 1-3/8" round and quarter it, BUT the direction of the grain of the wood is everything, as far as strength and not warping. TY George great video you made it simple tyo understand. From SE Texas Bear
Thank you for your time. Always wanted to know the difference.
Not just faster but you get more money out of the log. Thanks for the explanation.
you make a great argument for a swing mill
Swing mills have their usefulness in cutting 2x4 & 2x6's. their limitation is how big a saw blade they have since you can only cut boards about 1 1/2" less than the radius of the blade. Thanks for the great comment.
Can't say much about a smart way of doing things; other than makes sense to me. Thanks for the time and effort to make this video. (JF)
Ty for sharing! I came up with a way as well. You start by cutting 1" off the center of the log. Then take the larger section and cut 2" back from your last cut . Then flip the log cutting a 4" section from the side of the log right and left. This depends on size of the log then continue to cut the remainder quarter cut. The other side Very much the same other then you start 1" from your last cut.
Good for you. It seems the more I saw logs the more new and easy ways I find to do it. Keep experimenting, its fun to try new things.
Nice job, thanks for your time and effort!
Great video! It also clearly illustrates the advantage of being able to mill bigger logs on limited capacity mills.
My milling experience is mostly limited to milling slabs into framing lumber, and it is very aggravating when the initial milling wasn't done with those considerations in mind, leaving a lot less useable lumber. Great methodology - thank you sir.
That was one awesome video my buddy thank you for passing on your knowledge
Thank you for your knowledge and time, very skillful!
Did a nice job in the video in presenting your information I just want you to know that I got a book that shows this that’s very old so you’re not the first one that came up with it but I think you explained it eloquently
That is truly ingenious! Thank you for sharing.
Just got a bandsaw mill and I'm in the process of setting it up
I appreciate you sharing this knowledge. I'm drawing up a sketch to remind me 🙂 great comparison on the different log size results
Very informative and fun to watch!
Subscribed and looking forward to more
Thank you
I have watched sawmill programs and been totally baffled as to when and why they kept flipping and turning the log for what seemed no good reason. I did not realise they had a reason and a plan as to what the were trying to produce.
I will go back to these programs and see if I can now make more sense of what they are doing.
Great video and explanation. Thank you for sharing!
Use the throw away corner pieces to produce rift sawn wood with is really useful for table legs. The grain is straight on two sides visible of the leg.
Thank you that’s a very good idea thanks for sharing
Thanks for that video. It is very helpful. I appreciate it.
Great block of instruction!!
Thanks this was helpful. On why they did it the old way, If we are talking 18th century I suspect they were quartering large logs using wedges (splitting rather than sawing) to make it easier to get wood onto the sawmill using human power and to deal with the amount of cutting power they had available.
Awesome video! Very well done. Thank you.
best vid on 1/4 saw I have seen
You did a great job explaining the process. Another old way on a circle mill is to put your pie-shaped pieces on the carriage with the point of the pie up and centered then slab off, it'll be about 90% quarterback. I run a circle mill and that's how I do it whenever I need to get quartersawn. It works real well, I'm not sure how you hold it on a band mill, maybe put a 2×4 under the pointed side until you have made a couple of cuts then just turn over. Something to think about.
Lee Gibbs sawyer, gunsmith, and machinist
In woodworking and sawing there is often more than one way to achieve results. There is a difference in how you would hold a log for quarter sawing on a round blade mill various a bandsaw mills various a chain saw cutting. My normal routine is to try all the ways I can think of then chose the one that is the most efficient. Thanks for the great comment.
EXCELLENT EXPLAINATION !!!
Good demo. One thing you need to consider with a band saw is the depth of cut (throat) on a lot of band saws is only 8 to 10", so quartering a log more than 20" diameter on the mill isn't feasible. I've quartered many 40+ inch diameter sycamores with a chain saw just to maximize the quarter sawn grain. Worth it, I assure you! That angled grain from the corners is "rift" sawn, and furniture makers will also pay a premium for that, because it shows the same grain pattern on all 4 sides of a square table leg.
Makes good sense. Now I gotta go get a sawmill
Mark where the ring angle approaches 45%, excellent!
Thank you. That was fascinating!
Danke für die guten Tipps!
George you are a great presentor on this subject, learned a ton from this video and I don't even wood work, but you did an excellent job.
Ps you could of done the same on a 15 in slab as your large piece and used a 10 in slab as the smaller for the example, would of demonstrate the same principle, and would of been easier for you to manage the piece for the video. It is scalar for the discussion and reason why!
Looking forward to your other videos, so we'll done George!
Steven Columbus Michigan
could of?
Yes, but if I used a smaller piece of wood to demonstrate with, would you have been as impressed? Thanks for the comment.
I think you have a great way of quarter sawing. I'm going to try it out on some big white oak I have!
Thats the way to do it. keep experimenting with different methods to find the one that works best.
Thank you, this is very helpful