I have been the recipient of one of those "cease and desist" letters from a big publisher. They wanted all rights and wanted all the work done upon my game turned over to them. Sent a response basically laughing at them while pointing out how baseless and ridiculous their claim on my work was. Never heard back from them.
Thanks Adam. Insightful as always. On non-disclosure agreements: I'd always be very wary of signing one because if during a meeting an idea was mentioned by the other party that was very similar to one of my own existing but independently developed ideas, then I wouldn't want to feel prevented from using it. Though if Hasbro or one of the big players were interested in one of my designs then I guess I'd grit my teeth and sign. On independent invention: I've had a similar experience. There's a game I first invented in 2012 which I've yet to get to market. About 3 years ago a couple of other games came out with some very similar features - though the game play is different and they were less well implemented as mine (at least so I and other designers think!). Its highly unlikely they were influenced by my idea (as they were in Australia and the US), but I was worried that they might feel I'd copied their ideas. Fortunately, I'd done a small self-published production run in 2012 which was already on BGG, so got in touch with the American publisher and mentioned the situation and safeguard my interests should I ever release an updated version of my 2012 game.
Great to receive your incite and experience on this. It helps to hear not just the technical stuff but the culture around it, the experience. Like, how often do these fears come to life. Seems like not often.
Super super helpful! I am making a board game version of a video game that I loved playing growing up and I think it would be awesome of more people could enjoy this real life version that uses main core concepts and ideas from the video game but makes it better by making it real life and real life interactions with mini games and engaging with each other rather than engaging a screen.
Always interesting trying to implement a videogame as a board game. It’s hard to get right because videogames frequently rely on reflexes and speed-perception mechanisms. Board game implementations often feel a bit slow and dull as a result (see Street Fighter miniatures game for example). But when done cleverly they can be intriguing (Jetpack Joyride, Super Motherload, Stardew Valley).
If Days of Wonder doesn’t want Shadows Over Brooklyn, then they shouldn’t have any problem seeing it get published by someone else, especially if it gets renamed. That’s just the nature of rejecting something.
Fanrik I think it’s really useful to playtest with both. Designers can give extremely useful feedback - but it’s likely to be a lot more “intrusive”. I learn so much from speaking to more experienced / prolific designers. Regular players are likely to give you a more genuine picture of how the game is likely to be received.
I was so happy to see your channel pop up in my subscription feed again. This was - as usual - a very informative video and I learned quite a bit. As I told you on twitter about 6 months ago you inspired me to start designing board games and I still think I'm making progress every single day. I'm very much looking forward to seeing more videos from you soon. Cheers from Germany.
Skyrodin Hi - I was looking forward to a trip to Germany this July to spend some time with my in-laws, but sadly that’s now looking unlikely. Even Essen Spiel is a big uncertainty right now - with COVID lock-downs across the world.
@@AdaminWales Well, that's a shame. Up to this point I'm planning on visiting Essen Spiel for the first time this year. At least for me it's not a very complex or expensive trip. I just walk five minutes to the station and get on a train that takes me there within about two hours. Nevertheless I hope they won't have to cancel Spiel even though I would understand if they had to.
Interesting. I work with copyright (to music and sometimes books, "print" rather). You have to understand copyright is for a work of art. A patent requires something very unique ( an new technical process sort of) and it is expensive. Trademarks and brands is more likely to be relevant. Pictures (and litterary stories) are works of art so they are probably easiest to "copyright". A brand or trademark either has to be registered or "established" (well known). If the name, the character, logo etc is key that might be worth to register as a trademark (or later brand). I have contacted youtubers, hoempages etc using copyrighted music. One very often knows wheter they are leeches (making their own merchanise) or just fans not realising what is public use or not. Whenever the songwriter has an opinion it is extremly rare the user do not accept it. As an example someone using or wanting to use a song in their film often lovs to know the songwriter, manager etc saw the film and came with opinions on the scene with that song in it. If someone wanted me to sign non disclosure agreement and playtest their game I whould ask for renumation to help with their apperantly businesslike playtesting. If the game was not good or seemed ready to play I whould REALLY hold it against them to focus on an NDA and not the game. What is your game really? The theme, the art, the name, mechanics, a combination of these things?
Hey thanks for this :o I didn't know the legal stuff. I made a prototype of my game with wood and tiles and the main mechanic I BELIEVE is very unique. Havent played alot of board games though.
min 19:15 . at the end one alternative could be notarizing on some blockchain projects where you can save your game, I used NEM but now it is not working properly. I can think of ARweabe where you save things forever.
I don’t know many examples. Certainly some of the traditional classics from the 20th century were patented: for example The Landlord’s Game which was later released as Monopoly. I don’t think the patent actually served much purpose - the game was plagiarised anyway. From what I recall, Magic The Gathering patented the overall look, feel and gameplay of a trading card game, and defended its copyright over the term “tapping” describing rotating a card - but it didn’t stop hundreds of copycat products. A patent works best when it protects a very specific, physical component. The game Mouse Trap is a good example. But most board games don’t work like that - they are a mix of different mechanisms and components. A simple change to one aspect gets around the patent easily.
Hi Adam, I am considering submitting my game to major Publishers like Hasbro and Mattel and I don't think what you have said in this video necessarily about integrity applies to large corporations. If Hasbro was to rip off my game (and there are several online articles about such companies stealing game ideas), I doubt Hasbro would face much backlash because it would be so hard to hold them accountable because of their size. I know that it is always said that the chances of such a large corporation saying yes are tiny, but I honestly believe that my game is that good but it is also a very simple concept, which can be easily ripped off. Am I better off applying to smaller, more reputable companies? Thanks, so much, your videos are super helpful.
That’s very difficult for me to say - you’ll need to use your own judgement on that. If you have a mistrust of any specific company (Hasbro for example) then it would make sense to avoid sharing your game with them. My own experiences with Hasbro and other similar companies have been very positive - but I have only pitched to them very rarely, and never been successful. I’ve never heard of them ripping anyone off. They work with NDAs to protect themselves - they enter all the details of your game into a database - what it involves and when they were shown it. This is so that, if challenged, they can demonstrate that they haven’t copied a game, but perhaps had a similar concept in development in-house at an earlier point in time. I don’t think they have anything to gain by ripping off a designer - they seem to me to be exceptionally professional. I’ve have, on the other hand, heard of smaller companies stealing ideas. Though it’s very uncommon. I do think it makes sense to be careful about who you show a game concept to. But it is impossible to protect yourself fully. There is always an element of trust involved.
I think most enthusiasts board games at some point have an idea about a game from time to time. Clearly the importance is getting a prototype ready played. Talking about it online always strengthens ones position.
The best trick to prove you worked on a concept first, is to use regular mail and send a package with a copy of all your work to yourself. Do not open. Mail will have a timestamp. This should be proof before a judge about timestamps. So let the judge open the package and see its content.
This is a good way of proving you had the idea first. Agreed. And would help you later if you chose to show it to consumers who might support you by boycotting a publisher. But the fact that you had the idea first makes no difference legally. So it would not mean much to a judge. Your idea cannot be copyrighted.
Yes, that's true. A legal challenge against you would fail regardless (because you can't copyright ideas) but if someone was damaging your reputation by claiming you stole their idea, it would be of benefit to have proof of when the concept was first created. These days people often do that through digital means - a RUclips video etc.
@@AdaminWales Companies come and go in Internet. What if your proof was a website hosted in Geocities or Angelfire? Geocities and Angelfire are goners. Mail is better. What if it was stored in Megaupload? One day RUclips could be gone too.
An old trick of the trade yes. I whould perfer you making it i public at X date as then you are first for sure (in public where the rest of teh world is outside my private sphere).
Hi Shannon - I hope the video answers those questions, but essentially copyright is automatic. You don’t need to do anything to register it. Patents are generally useless for board games. But I’m not a self-publisher. I license my games to publishers, so this might not be the best forum to ask the question! It might be worth asking someone who has self-published what they did.
In the US you still need to register before suing someone. Check with a lawyer, or at least go to the Copyright Office's website & read their publications. There's a lot of nifty a gritty details which get left off most online discussions.
Julian Bö I think few people really understand the distinction between a “playtester” and a “developer”. So ideas get freely offered up all the time in a playtest whether you want them or not. New designers can get quite confused when multiple people are throwing different mechanisms at them and they don’t know which way to go. Personally, I rarely ask for feedback at all. I like to watch the playtesters playing and quietly assess whether the experience is what I intended or not. At the end, I thank them, pack up and move on. As you say, it’s my job to fix the flaws in a game - not the job of my playtesters.
@@AdaminWales Some designers should get more feedback and playtest more. Else, final customers will be the ones doing the harsh feedback. Starship Captains has a winning strategy. Play missions. You do it, you win, but if you go for the fun and play any other mechanics, you lose. I do not see a way to fix that. With Downforce, if a player has too many wildcards, wins. This is fixable. Make sure all players have a similar amount of wildcards. With Star Wars Risk, if you go for the shield bunker and ignore Vader and space combat, and then you go for the Death Star, you win. Vader vs Luke and space combat are an unnecessary distraction. No way to fix. Very thematic? Yes. Playtested? No.
Hi Adam, I had a very good idea and there is nothing in the market there is any chance we had a chat and maybe you give me some guide? is my first time ever, please let me know, thanks a lot!!!
Hi Jay, unfortunately I don't have the time to look at other designer's games unless I am attending a specific game designers meeting. But well done on creating something. Hope it works out well for you. Have a look through the other videos on my channel - there are loads on game design and publication, so you should find some good tips. Best of luck.
Thank you for all your positive energy. I have altered a game which exists already, I think its so much more fun to play it may way, how can i start a buisiness from there?
Hi Petra, I replied to your comment on another video - but I'll copy it here for other viewers' benefit! :) Altering an existing game is a tricky way to start. If you’ve designed a game based on a classic (i.e. public domain) game, then you just need to work out how to market it. In this video I talk about how other people have done this: ruclips.net/video/15Zq8GNA2Ow/видео.html If you’ve adapted a more modern game, with a named designer or established publisher, then you have more of a problem. Just like you can’t reword a few chapters of a popular novel and re-release it as your own, you can’t really tweak somebody else’s work and sell your own boardgame based off of it. If your idea is more of the latter (tweaking a game which is owned by someone) then I’d suggest… keep tweaking. Adapt it in all sorts of ways until it no longer resembles the original. There are many similar games out there, so there’s nothing wrong with a having a few basic similarities - but if people are going to accuse you of ripping off their idea, you’re going to have a hard time marketing your game (and potentially legal difficulties).
@@shannonengler4669 I don’t really understand the question you’re asking Shannon. If you take a look at my channel, there are loads of videos about all aspects of board game design, so hopefully you’ll find some useful information there :)
Thanks for watching. I get a lot of requests like this, so I’m unable to assist I’m afraid. Maybe watch this video which might help: ruclips.net/video/i_fjx1xVy3g/видео.html Good luck!
Some underdog games are so good and unique that you will find out if a copycat tries to have a grasp. The captain is dead is unique in it's concept and polished in the implementation. Hard to copy without being too noticeable.
There are 2 strategies. Use regular mail to send a copy of your work to yourself. In case of legal problems let the judge see the mail timestamp and open the mail. Also, when you design a game there are rule considerations that others cannot reverse engineer. Anyone can make dinner, but no one does it like grandma. When there is a secret in the recipe, it is hard to copy and modify it without destroying the game experience.
I have been the recipient of one of those "cease and desist" letters from a big publisher. They wanted all rights and wanted all the work done upon my game turned over to them. Sent a response basically laughing at them while pointing out how baseless and ridiculous their claim on my work was. Never heard back from them.
Actually, that was THE ONE question I had like forever
Thanks Adam. Insightful as always.
On non-disclosure agreements: I'd always be very wary of signing one because if during a meeting an idea was mentioned by the other party that was very similar to one of my own existing but independently developed ideas, then I wouldn't want to feel prevented from using it. Though if Hasbro or one of the big players were interested in one of my designs then I guess I'd grit my teeth and sign.
On independent invention: I've had a similar experience. There's a game I first invented in 2012 which I've yet to get to market. About 3 years ago a couple of other games came out with some very similar features - though the game play is different and they were less well implemented as mine (at least so I and other designers think!). Its highly unlikely they were influenced by my idea (as they were in Australia and the US), but I was worried that they might feel I'd copied their ideas. Fortunately, I'd done a small self-published production run in 2012 which was already on BGG, so got in touch with the American publisher and mentioned the situation and safeguard my interests should I ever release an updated version of my 2012 game.
Thanks for watching Dave. Good points about NDAs!
Great to receive your incite and experience on this.
It helps to hear not just the technical stuff but the culture around it, the experience.
Like, how often do these fears come to life. Seems like not often.
Glad to have you back!
Daniel Solis Thanks Daniel. Hope you are well.
Hooray! Adam is back! I look forward to watching this later today
Bruce Knight Thanks Bruce.
Great to see you back, Adam. I hope you stay safe and healthy.
harperrob Thanks Rob - hope you are well too.
Super super helpful! I am making a board game version of a video game that I loved playing growing up and I think it would be awesome of more people could enjoy this real life version that uses main core concepts and ideas from the video game but makes it better by making it real life and real life interactions with mini games and engaging with each other rather than engaging a screen.
Always interesting trying to implement a videogame as a board game. It’s hard to get right because videogames frequently rely on reflexes and speed-perception mechanisms. Board game implementations often feel a bit slow and dull as a result (see Street Fighter miniatures game for example). But when done cleverly they can be intriguing (Jetpack Joyride, Super Motherload, Stardew Valley).
If Days of Wonder doesn’t want Shadows Over Brooklyn, then they shouldn’t have any problem seeing it get published by someone else, especially if it gets renamed. That’s just the nature of rejecting something.
And off course it will not affact their existing product, trademark or stock of Shaows over Camelot at all?
Good to see you back. Always interesting. Hope all is well with you and your wife. 😀
James Brazeal Thanks James - yes, we’re both well. Best wishes to you and yours.
Thanks a lot. The key, as I hear it, is to get a group of board gamers, who are not designers themselves, as playtesters!
Fanrik I think it’s really useful to playtest with both. Designers can give extremely useful feedback - but it’s likely to be a lot more “intrusive”. I learn so much from speaking to more experienced / prolific designers. Regular players are likely to give you a more genuine picture of how the game is likely to be received.
I was so happy to see your channel pop up in my subscription feed again. This was - as usual - a very informative video and I learned quite a bit. As I told you on twitter about 6 months ago you inspired me to start designing board games and I still think I'm making progress every single day. I'm very much looking forward to seeing more videos from you soon. Cheers from Germany.
Skyrodin Hi - I was looking forward to a trip to Germany this July to spend some time with my in-laws, but sadly that’s now looking unlikely. Even Essen Spiel is a big uncertainty right now - with COVID lock-downs across the world.
@@AdaminWales Well, that's a shame. Up to this point I'm planning on visiting Essen Spiel for the first time this year. At least for me it's not a very complex or expensive trip. I just walk five minutes to the station and get on a train that takes me there within about two hours. Nevertheless I hope they won't have to cancel Spiel even though I would understand if they had to.
Interesting. I work with copyright (to music and sometimes books, "print" rather). You have to understand copyright is for a work of art. A patent requires something very unique ( an new technical process sort of) and it is expensive. Trademarks and brands is more likely to be relevant. Pictures (and litterary stories) are works of art so they are probably easiest to "copyright". A brand or trademark either has to be registered or "established" (well known). If the name, the character, logo etc is key that might be worth to register as a trademark (or later brand).
I have contacted youtubers, hoempages etc using copyrighted music. One very often knows wheter they are leeches (making their own merchanise) or just fans not realising what is public use or not. Whenever the songwriter has an opinion it is extremly rare the user do not accept it. As an example someone using or wanting to use a song in their film often lovs to know the songwriter, manager etc saw the film and came with opinions on the scene with that song in it.
If someone wanted me to sign non disclosure agreement and playtest their game I whould ask for renumation to help with their apperantly businesslike playtesting. If the game was not good or seemed ready to play I whould REALLY hold it against them to focus on an NDA and not the game. What is your game really? The theme, the art, the name, mechanics, a combination of these things?
Excellent insights Adam !
The vicious world of board game designers! 😂
Hey thanks for this :o I didn't know the legal stuff. I made a prototype of my game with wood and tiles and the main mechanic I BELIEVE is very unique. Havent played alot of board games though.
min 19:15 . at the end one alternative could be notarizing on some blockchain projects where you can save your game, I used NEM but now it is not working properly. I can think of ARweabe where you save things forever.
Im creating a chess variant cards, and this video is really helpful. Thank you.
What are some examples of games that do have patents on them? you mentioned that a rare few do have them
I don’t know many examples. Certainly some of the traditional classics from the 20th century were patented: for example The Landlord’s Game which was later released as Monopoly. I don’t think the patent actually served much purpose - the game was plagiarised anyway.
From what I recall, Magic The Gathering patented the overall look, feel and gameplay of a trading card game, and defended its copyright over the term “tapping” describing rotating a card - but it didn’t stop hundreds of copycat products.
A patent works best when it protects a very specific, physical component. The game Mouse Trap is a good example. But most board games don’t work like that - they are a mix of different mechanisms and components. A simple change to one aspect gets around the patent easily.
Hi Adam, I am considering submitting my game to major Publishers like Hasbro and Mattel and I don't think what you have said in this video necessarily about integrity applies to large corporations. If Hasbro was to rip off my game (and there are several online articles about such companies stealing game ideas), I doubt Hasbro would face much backlash because it would be so hard to hold them accountable because of their size.
I know that it is always said that the chances of such a large corporation saying yes are tiny, but I honestly believe that my game is that good but it is also a very simple concept, which can be easily ripped off.
Am I better off applying to smaller, more reputable companies?
Thanks, so much,
your videos are super helpful.
That’s very difficult for me to say - you’ll need to use your own judgement on that. If you have a mistrust of any specific company (Hasbro for example) then it would make sense to avoid sharing your game with them.
My own experiences with Hasbro and other similar companies have been very positive - but I have only pitched to them very rarely, and never been successful. I’ve never heard of them ripping anyone off. They work with NDAs to protect themselves - they enter all the details of your game into a database - what it involves and when they were shown it. This is so that, if challenged, they can demonstrate that they haven’t copied a game, but perhaps had a similar concept in development in-house at an earlier point in time. I don’t think they have anything to gain by ripping off a designer - they seem to me to be exceptionally professional.
I’ve have, on the other hand, heard of smaller companies stealing ideas. Though it’s very uncommon.
I do think it makes sense to be careful about who you show a game concept to. But it is impossible to protect yourself fully. There is always an element of trust involved.
@@AdaminWales Thanks so much for this. That's a really helpful insight.
I think most enthusiasts board games at some point have an idea about a game from time to time. Clearly the importance is getting a prototype ready played. Talking about it online always strengthens ones position.
@Carey Hunt All my ideas are pretty far from fully fleshed out.
Thanks a lot , this video answered all my questions 🙂
Great, glad to hear it.
how do i get my game play tested if i only have one homemade copy of my game
and i don't have any money to get a prototype made?
Great video!
The best trick to prove you worked on a concept first, is to use regular mail and send a package with a copy of all your work to yourself. Do not open. Mail will have a timestamp. This should be proof before a judge about timestamps. So let the judge open the package and see its content.
This is a good way of proving you had the idea first. Agreed. And would help you later if you chose to show it to consumers who might support you by boycotting a publisher.
But the fact that you had the idea first makes no difference legally. So it would not mean much to a judge. Your idea cannot be copyrighted.
@@AdaminWales It would work if someone wants to prove you stole the game you created.
Yes, that's true. A legal challenge against you would fail regardless (because you can't copyright ideas) but if someone was damaging your reputation by claiming you stole their idea, it would be of benefit to have proof of when the concept was first created. These days people often do that through digital means - a RUclips video etc.
@@AdaminWales Companies come and go in Internet. What if your proof was a website hosted in Geocities or Angelfire? Geocities and Angelfire are goners. Mail is better. What if it was stored in Megaupload? One day RUclips could be gone too.
An old trick of the trade yes. I whould perfer you making it i public at X date as then you are first for sure (in public where the rest of teh world is outside my private sphere).
Creating is the easy part. Selling is the hard part. Borrow all you want and it won't help you.
Hi it my first time making a game and I was wondering do use Copyright or Patent for your own self publish game?
Hi Shannon - I hope the video answers those questions, but essentially copyright is automatic. You don’t need to do anything to register it.
Patents are generally useless for board games.
But I’m not a self-publisher. I license my games to publishers, so this might not be the best forum to ask the question! It might be worth asking someone who has self-published what they did.
@@AdaminWales Thanks
In the US you still need to register before suing someone. Check with a lawyer, or at least go to the Copyright Office's website & read their publications. There's a lot of nifty a gritty details which get left off most online discussions.
do you deisgn under a company name or as a sole trader??
I’m a sole trader. I would only design under a company name if my accountant recommended it. I don’t know what other designers do.
Regarding 13:30, I have heard that this behaviour (throwing those kind of ideas to the designer) is rather unwanted in playtesters.
Julian Bö I think few people really understand the distinction between a “playtester” and a “developer”. So ideas get freely offered up all the time in a playtest whether you want them or not. New designers can get quite confused when multiple people are throwing different mechanisms at them and they don’t know which way to go. Personally, I rarely ask for feedback at all. I like to watch the playtesters playing and quietly assess whether the experience is what I intended or not. At the end, I thank them, pack up and move on. As you say, it’s my job to fix the flaws in a game - not the job of my playtesters.
@@AdaminWales Some designers should get more feedback and playtest more. Else, final customers will be the ones doing the harsh feedback.
Starship Captains has a winning strategy. Play missions. You do it, you win, but if you go for the fun and play any other mechanics, you lose. I do not see a way to fix that.
With Downforce, if a player has too many wildcards, wins. This is fixable. Make sure all players have a similar amount of wildcards.
With Star Wars Risk, if you go for the shield bunker and ignore Vader and space combat, and then you go for the Death Star, you win. Vader vs Luke and space combat are an unnecessary distraction. No way to fix. Very thematic? Yes. Playtested? No.
Hi Adam, I had a very good idea and there is nothing in the market there is any chance we had a chat and maybe you give me some guide? is my first time ever, please let me know, thanks a lot!!!
Hi Jay, unfortunately I don't have the time to look at other designer's games unless I am attending a specific game designers meeting. But well done on creating something. Hope it works out well for you. Have a look through the other videos on my channel - there are loads on game design and publication, so you should find some good tips. Best of luck.
Thank you for all your positive energy. I have altered a game which exists already, I think its so much more fun to play it may way, how can i start a buisiness from there?
Hi Petra, I replied to your comment on another video - but I'll copy it here for other viewers' benefit! :)
Altering an existing game is a tricky way to start. If you’ve designed a game based on a classic (i.e. public domain) game, then you just need to work out how to market it. In this video I talk about how other people have done this:
ruclips.net/video/15Zq8GNA2Ow/видео.html
If you’ve adapted a more modern game, with a named designer or established publisher, then you have more of a problem. Just like you can’t reword a few chapters of a popular novel and re-release it as your own, you can’t really tweak somebody else’s work and sell your own boardgame based off of it.
If your idea is more of the latter (tweaking a game which is owned by someone) then I’d suggest… keep tweaking. Adapt it in all sorts of ways until it no longer resembles the original. There are many similar games out there, so there’s nothing wrong with a having a few basic similarities - but if people are going to accuse you of ripping off their idea, you’re going to have a hard time marketing your game (and potentially legal difficulties).
Are you self broad game publish?
I currently only license my games to publishers. I haven’t self-published yet, though I may do in the future :)
@@AdaminWales thanks for replying do you know any steps on making fan made board games suggestion?
@@shannonengler4669 I don’t really understand the question you’re asking Shannon. If you take a look at my channel, there are loads of videos about all aspects of board game design, so hopefully you’ll find some useful information there :)
Would you get with me and invest your time to helping me make my game a house whole name?
Thanks for watching. I get a lot of requests like this, so I’m unable to assist I’m afraid. Maybe watch this video which might help:
ruclips.net/video/i_fjx1xVy3g/видео.html
Good luck!
One of the good things is if someone copies it, it Probably is a very good game
Some underdog games are so good and unique that you will find out if a copycat tries to have a grasp.
The captain is dead is unique in it's concept and polished in the implementation. Hard to copy without being too noticeable.
There are 2 strategies. Use regular mail to send a copy of your work to yourself. In case of legal problems let the judge see the mail timestamp and open the mail.
Also, when you design a game there are rule considerations that others cannot reverse engineer. Anyone can make dinner, but no one does it like grandma. When there is a secret in the recipe, it is hard to copy and modify it without destroying the game experience.