Who is the Most Senior Heir of Charlemagne Today? Part 2: Alternative Answers
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- Опубликовано: 1 июн 2024
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Narration/Chart: Matt Baker usefulcharts.com/
Animation: Syawish Rehman / @almuqaddimahyt
Audio Editing: Jack Rackam / @jackrackam
Intro music: "Lord of the Land" by Kevin MacLeod and licensed under Creative Commons Attribution license 4.0. incompetech.com
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I expected you to choose Luis Alfonso de Borbon. The senior Bourbon heir. King Felipe's second cousin. Not sure why you didn't?
I heard once that if you were to follow absolut(=not male preferance) primogeniture, Henry, Grand Duke of Luxembourg would be the rightfull King of GB. If so, would he in that case replace Elisabeth as heir of Charlemagne?
Hey, does your book also contain family trees in addition to civilization charts?
@@denislamesch8155 Absolute primogeniture _from where_? In that sort of thing, a lot depends on the starting point.
I calculated the absolute primogeniture line from William the Conqueror a few years ago, and ended up, with some assumptions, at Louis Boulard de Vaucelles (born 1932); I can't access my intermediate results right now, so I'm not sure how I got there (googling it right now I can't find anyone by that name with that birth year at all).
@@january1may Starting from William the conqueror. Apparantly, Hery is a descendent of Williams oldest child, a daughter.
I'm all for a random DJ in South Africa being the true heir to basically all of Europe. Sounds like an amazing movie script.
LOL!I am well versed in European continental royal dynasic genealogies but this has got to be a massive wind-up:DJ Kanif the Jhatmaster!plz!🤣😂🤣
Long live the Jhatmaster!
His real name is Sir Rufus Hugo Giles Sebright, 16th Baronet, so while he isn't on the same level as the rest of the names there, he isn't exactly a rando.
I have to agree with you @Mad Cat, this would make an awesome movie ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️
Does he have an Insta page where we all can go and Let him know we support his claim to the Holy Roman Empire
What if the most senior heir of Charlemagne is the friends we made along the way?
What the Hell are you trying to say?
@@waynemarvin5661 don't overthink it sweetheart.
With the amount of succession wars in history of European monarchies, more like, enemies we made along the way...
@@waynemarvin5661 What if the real (Insert Thing Here) was the friends we made along the way is a common meme. It's a joke.
JESUS CHRIST? Heir to the Throne of David, who was the heir to GOD’s Throne, aka JESUS CHRIST Heir to GOD’s Throne!
The true heir of Charlemagne is whoever is willing to claim the title and fight off anyone who disagrees.
facts
Hitler then?
@@noahtutt497 he lost tho
@@LiminalQueenMedia well success wasn’t in OPs criteria
@@noahtutt497 Yeah but you only get the title if you survive to wield it and don't go out like a punk in a bunker
Kanif, by the grace of god, Emperor of the Romans, King of Beats, The Jhatmaster, Arch DJ of all songs ever composed by human hands.
Apparently his real name is Rufus LOL
@@2xcrzkxk Which sounds pretty much a Roman name.
@@semregob3363 yes, given to red haired men
Interastingly enough, as you shown in the chart, unless Duke Franz of Bavaria has any chidlren, shich is unlikely at his old age, the line fuses into the Liechtenstein family, eventually giving the Prince of Liechtenstein the right to claim succession to Charlemagne at some point in the future. It *could* potentially even work in a more cultural way rather than just family, since The House of Liechtenstein is the last remaining german speaking ruling dynasty, and I just find the idea of the "Empire of Liechtenstein, the truest successor to the Holy Roman Empire" absolutely amazing.
Imagine "tiny nation of Liechtenstein reclaims the holy roman empire"
Duke Franz is gay so NO HE ISN’T GONNA HAVE CHILDREN
I would love to see the royal family of Liechtenstein claim ownership of Bavaria after that
And the UK, as they also would be jacobite claimants
@@jhailavie2548 Bavaria, then all of the HRE suddenly
It's a bit amusing that all of the choices were royals, except the illegitimate one who was a DJ.
Bruh he's not just a DJ, he's the JhatMASTER. He's basically a royal by conquest with those credentials.
His real name is Sir Rufus Hugo Giles Sebright, 16th Baronet, which makes him fit in a little bit better.
@@joelsmith3473 Sir Rufus Hugo Giles Sebright, 16th Baronet and Master of Jhat
@@ingaman I feel like we need a lineage of the Masters of Jhat... Like, who trained whom in the ways of Jhat.
@@foxyfoxington2651 First I'd like to know what Jhat is
i pledge my allegiance to dj kanif the jhatmaster and his sick beats 🙇♂️
Bruh
Alll Hail DJ Emperor Kanif I the jhatmaster
he should unironically use "The Emperor" as his stage name
same in fact I herby appoint him as new PM of Italy
That's the man for the job. He understands the people, as he has lived among them.
I'm gonna go on a super Whims of History line and say the most Senior Heir is none other than Matt Baker. Owing to his research in, and charting of, all this information.
One of these days when he switches from one chart to another it'll just randomly lead to the House of Baker and nobody will question it.
Seriously… I was thinking the same thing. He should at least get the Honorary title.
"Well Matt, we can't be bothered to figure it out. Rather than trying to follow your charts, how about we just put you in charge and call it a day?"
just to say that Charlemagne is, for France, only one of the many Frankish kings. there were some before him, there were some after him. he did not create the Frankish kingdom, he is its heir and he is (perhaps) ALSO the father of Germany. Charlemagne is above all a Frankish king, a descendant of the Frankish kings who are French. Germany is a French Colony, just like England.
🤣🤣🤣🤣 A Jew with a claim to be Roman Emperor!! Poetic Justice after 2000 years!
The South African DJ reveal is the best plot twist of anything ever.
I traced my family from a small fishing village in Tangier, Nova Scotia, Canada all the way back to Alfred the Great. Took me forever but the trees are endless. However does this for a living has to be patient and extremely patient.
Shout out to DJ Kanif the Jhatmaster, the only true heir in my book
I think that Felipe is the more senior heir due to semi/Salic law, and something you looked over in the first video. Charlemagne was Catholic, Queen Elizabeth is Protestant, and Felipe is Catholic. Charlemagne was the Catholic Warrior King after all
Interesting observation,but apart from a few heretical sects sprinkled across continental Europe,during Charlemagne's time,there was no distinctive theological split between Catholic and Protestant,as all notable dynastic European kings and princes,etc.,recognise the Pope as the temporal head of the united Christian Church.
@@MrSinclairn Well, yeah there were no protestants around. duh. The point is that emperor is crowned (as if) by the will of God, (Since he tends to remain silent about these matters) as such only with approval of his apointee on earth - that being Pope. Since Anglican church doesn't have a pope but king the rule is somewhat broken. So I agree with Thomas here.
@@MrSinclairn The Roman Empress Irene, her heirs and successors were Orthodox Christians, as were several nearby states in Europe such as the Bulgar Kingdom. And Orthodoxy views Roman Catholicism as a slightly heretical breakaway from the true Church by one of the five Patrichates.
A cool idea for a chart is "Which ruling monarchs are in line to the throne of another country?". Example, the Dutch king had his succession to the British throne restored with the Succession to the Crown Act of 2013.
"the Dutch king had his succession to the British throne restored with the Succession to the Crown Act of 2013."
Glorious Revolution 2.0 Electric Boogaloo here we go!
*1690s vibes*
No Glorious Revolution required. If Brexit continues to tank the British economy, The Netherlands will simply buy it! 😀
In a previous video, you showed how Felipe VI of Spain could possibly claim the title of Emperor of Rome. Mix into that this claim as Successor of Charlemagne, and I would whole heartedly support the Line of Charlamagne at last achieving their dynastic dream... ...to be the next Roman Empire.
tl;dr Felipe VI of Spain has my vote, as it seems the most dramatic and most epic course of history imao.
Casually becoming the HRE and the RE in a Catholic country, doesn't that make him 2HRE
@@adilhachedmoreno7852 Well the later RE was officially Christian so I was going with that. Perhaps it makes him HRE²? 😆
@@adilhachedmoreno7852 2H2RE?
I like that solution too.
But current head of Habsburg dynasty also has both claims to be roman emperor , emperor of HRE and heir of Karl der Große, so emperors of three empires.
6:15 In fact, Charles X's line did not die out, but was passed down through his granddaughter Louise d'Artois, Duchess of Parma. If we continue this line, Charlemagne's most senior heir is today Pedro de Borbón-Dos Sicilias y Orléans, Head of the House of Bourbon-Two Sicilies.
I wanna find out more about this DJ guy, I kinda wanna knock on his door and give him the news that he has a claim to be the rightful ruler of all of Europe.
As the legitimate descendants of Charlemagne (and his senior heirs) were determined by 1st Salic Law and then Semi-Salic Law, I think it makes sense to keep with that tradition in determining who his senior heir is today. Your video has convinced me that the only correct answer in King Felipe VI of Spain, who is the candidate determined to be most senior following the Semi-Salic Law.
Christianity spread by sword:
Charlemagne conducted his first campaign against Saxons in 772 AD .His forces advanced rapidly to the castle of Eresburg and destroyed the major Saxon shrine called the " Irminsul " The Royal Frankish Annals for 772 triumphantly claimed that huge amounts of treasure , consisting of gold and silver had fallen into Charlemagne's hands , plunder that may have been pagan sacrificial offerings ; this booty also seemed to fire the enthusiasm of the king's retinue for waging war . BOOK : CHARLEMAGNE . Author : Johannes Fried . Translated by Peter Lewis . Edition 2016 page - 99 .
just to say that Charlemagne is, for France, only one of the many Frankish kings. there were some before him, there were some after him. he did not create the Frankish kingdom, he is its heir and he is (perhaps) ALSO the father of Germany. Charlemagne is above all a Frankish king, a descendant of the Frankish kings who are French. Germany is a French Colony, just like England.
@@shivas3003 the Franken/Franks were a Germanic tribe from the region of Germany/Netherlands and if anything then France is a colony just like England (Angeln + Saxon tribe). And lets not forget that Karl der Grosse (Charlemagne is a wrong name, later localized, but no one of his environment named him like that) lies also in Aachen/Germany which was the capital.
@@publicminx Charlemagne est le fils de pépin le Bref , Tous "frank" de gaule. Pas du tout germanic.
@@publicminx Charlemagne is part of french history , not german.
Since the questions of law and history make things complicated, I think it would be interesting to know who is just the most senior verifiable descendant period. Basically absolute primogeniture with illegitimate allowed as long as it can be verified. Probably wouldn't be the right answer because like you said records for female lines are hard, but still the closest verifiable answer would be interesting.
Tried to find an early senior daughter and tried tracking the line to 20th century. Very likely went wrong way at some point but found some more or lesser known Belgian and Dutch nobles. So basically very near Luxembourg.
Idk about illegitimate heirs, but I'm a male line legitimate descendant of the Bourbon kings of France, so I might be one of the potential answers
I enjoy the fact history went with the harder option for actual heir tracing to really double (more like decuple) down on sexism.
When a kid is born you can't really tell who the father is, but you can just look at where the little one came from to see the mother.
Not in a: "Great times" sense of enjoyment, it just makes me laugh.
@@DomenBremecXCVI Well, in most of history I'm sure they were aware that you can always [almost] be sure of the mother but not the father, but if they wanted to apply that principle each king in turn would have to be succeeded only by a sister's son, who could be assured of being the heir of his grandfather. But that would mean every royal generation had to produce at least one son to rule and one daughter to produce the next heir, and each king would have to be content with being succeeded by a nephew, not a son.
Some systems IIRC have tried this. But on the whole it sounds like an even more complicated jobs program for the heralds and genealogists and a recipe for even more war among princes.
I tried doing this, a big problem is that even when descendants were recorded (which usually happened, though some families lost so much prestige even that disappeared) birth dates were not recorded, and since being firstborn daughter usually meant nothing if you had a brother, it was very hard for me to determine which child was actually first. I tried doing things like this for a few French kings, and I got a few random minor Italian nobles. Interestingly, if you do male-preference primogeniture rather than Salic law for the French kings, you eventually get the same line, since one of the daughters married into the line of the monarchy of Navarre, which did use male-preference primogeniture. And since Henry IV merged the thrones together, you eventually get the kings of France. For some French kings doing absolute primogeniture also gets you to Henry IV, where the line remains the same until Louis XVI since he had an older sister.
One thing that I find interesting in both those videos is we go all over Europe touching almost all dynasties but somehow we never really touch any of the french ones (at least after Hugh Capet)
Since the french monarchy specifically claimed that their right to power was to descend from Charlemagne via West Francia, I find that pretty ironic
I wonder if there is an historical reason for that (like were they more isolated than other dynasties in their choice of spouse) or is it just a coincidence
Capet descends from charlemagne albeit through a female line.
The early kings of west francia was technically elected until after 200 years after hugh capet, when the capet dynasty established a firm grip on the throne, and it transformed into a father - son succession
As the comment above me says, Hugh Capet and his successors descend from Charlemagne through the illegitimate line, but according to semi-salic law can not claim to be his most senior heirs.
Also, the West Frankish line had only one legitimate continuation in the counts of Namur. To claim its title as most senior line, the French kings would've had to marry a female descendant with no male line relatives, which is a quite rare circumstance.
Christianity spread by sword:
Charlemagne conducted his first campaign against Saxons in 772 AD .His forces advanced rapidly to the castle of Eresburg and destroyed the major Saxon shrine called the " Irminsul " The Royal Frankish Annals for 772 triumphantly claimed that huge amounts of treasure , consisting of gold and silver had fallen into Charlemagne's hands , plunder that may have been pagan sacrificial offerings ; this booty also seemed to fire the enthusiasm of the king's retinue for waging war . BOOK : CHARLEMAGNE . Author : Johannes Fried . Translated by Peter Lewis . Edition 2016 page - 99 .
It’s just a bunch of bull….
@@connaeris8230funnily enough a Capet ends up being the most senior heir, that being Felipe vi. With this being said doesn’t his cousin Alphonse duke Anjou still have a better claim. His grandad renounce the Spanish title not the French one or any other. In theory Alfonso, his sons and his daughters future male line are barely above the Spanish royals.
I would argue in favour of the Namur line. Charlemagne himself followed the strict salic law and it is only logical (from this point of view) to follow the male-only line to the last legitimate agnatic member of the dynasty and then follow the line of his nearest female relative. After all, it's only after the last agnatic line dies out that a dynasty seizes to exist. That's how a dynasty is defined. (Historical dynasties anyway. I'm not talking about the House of Garsenda). It shouldn't be the most senior female line of the most senior agnate, but the most senior female line of the last agnate, the final agnatic heir (again, only if we follow the agnatic logic).
Who would it be then?
@@mirnacudiczgela1963 Did you even watch the video?
my thought exactly... you have to start at the last legitimate male heir of Charlemagne
True, the most "authentic" method would be using strict Salic Law until the last legitimate male line descendant dies, then switching to semi Salic.
I agree. It _feels_ like the way history would've gone if "bigger army diplomacy" wasn't a thing. Almost all houses followed salic law until that meant the extinction of the dynasty - and only THEN did they switch to semi-salic, but then stuck to it after. I am a bit confused, however, how the video arrived at Georg Friedrich as the most senior heir of Wilhelm II. (last emperor of germany) in that line of thought... See:
Wilhelm II. eldest son was also named Wilhelm (often called "the crown prince") - this son had four sons and two daughters. The eldest son (also Wilhelm) had two daughters, but the second son (Louis Ferdinand) had a son called Friedrich Wilhelm, who in turn had a son Phillip Kiril. This is the most senior living heir of Charlemagne according to the Namur line.
[The common (mis)conception that Georg Friedrich is the most senior heir of Wilhelm II. is founded upon him being the head of the house and his uncle being excluded from inheritance by Wilhelm II. himself by "house law" because he married "below station". But that's all _von Preußen_ house humbug. If you follow semi salic law all the way, why stop at the dusk of the german empire? If you see it through, _Phillip Kiril von Preußen_ is the most senior heir of Charlemagne today.]
I really tried to research the most senior descendant including illegitimate lines, but I hit a dead end at the Vermandois counts. The records I found online just started going in a circle. I forget who, but the records seem to think he was his own grandfather, and he kept having his father as a son, with two different mothers, sometimes. It was trippy.
So this is where that song "I'm my own grandpa" comes from :P
lol, genealogy sites are full of junk like that
Not even the worst case of strange royal incest relations
One of them actually did have descendants but they seem to have lost their titles fairly quickly, so they faded from the record.
Felipe of Spain has the legal right to claim the Roman Empire, is the second most senior member of the House of Capet (his cousin is technically first but they renounced the claim to the Throne of Spain), is the most senior heir of Charlemagne by Semi-Sallic Law, and is the political heir of Charles I & V King of Spain and Holy Roman Emperor, arguably the most powerful person in Europe since Charlemagne at his time.
Felipe has my support.
Viva España, viva el rey, viva la orden y la ley.
He has no sons either. But way too early to speculate on the future family of the very young Princess of Asturías.
If we ignore myself being a republican, he also gets my support
@@makaveli8735 ¡Viva la Guardia Civil!
The Spanish renounced his rights to the Spanish kingdom not for the Carolingian dinasty headship, só according to semi-salic, it seems the rightful heir would be Louis XX, Duke of Anjou.
Louis XX doesnt exist, stopped at Louis XVIIIth.
The only way for Louis XX to exist would be to acknowledge that the past 150 years of French History without the monarchy did not exist
They could deny it for the 1st revolution as it lasted a few decades only, they cant now
You said we can't use absolute primogeniture because of the lack of sources, but what if we used male-preference primogeniture until the point sources become available and the change to primogeniture?
Oops we forgot to write down your name correctly, guess you don't exist now
I suppose the other option would be look for the next most senior agnatic descendant of a male-line ancestor of Charlemagne once Louis of Lower Lorraine died in 1023. As far as I can tell, there were no legitimate male-line descendants of Charlemagne's father Pepin or of his grandfather Charles Martel alive at that time (there'd been a fairly efficient job done of bumping them off or committing them to monasteries and bishoprics), but there may have been some through Charles Martel's younger brother Hildebrand. But that's really getting into trawling through French nobility.
The German Emperors maybe being Charlemagnes heirs is such a history-romantic miracle, I absolutely love it.
Before watching your video, I tried to figure out by myself using my European royal family tree - west I have, and I got to Felipe VI (though I probably made a ton of mistakes on the way), and I was sort of bummed out when you said the actual answer is Elizabeth II, so it's nice to see I might be technically right even though I used the wrong methods and made a ton of mistakes.
Coming up with the right answer through wrong methodology, also known as the math test in school.
@@jamesbernadette6216 *coming with the wrong answer through wrong methodology
@@terrainrecords6038 That be more often the case, however the common truth isn't as memeable 😁
What about someone who could connects back the charlemagne to most
IE: who has the most ancestors that connect back to him if thats even possible?
last time people tried to do something like that we ended up with Carlos II of Spain.
That would essentially require us to trace all male and female descendants of Charlemagne. It's probably impossible.
Maybe a DNA test?
@@marcellkiss-redey8451 Not impossible, but could be based on the most *documented* connections having the strongest claim. In the same sense that around 10% of Americans are calculated to be descended from Mayflower passengers, but a minuscule fraction of this are members of a Mayflower hereditary society.
7:15 - and given your argument for that person also having the strongest claim to Roman Emperor via the will of last Byz Emperor, that seems highly poetic to me.
Love these kinds on vids and your videos on alternate successions
Thank you for this follow up video.
Did the common people of the time actually keep track of any of this bouncing back and forth stuff or did they just sorta accept whichever head was on their coins? because I have google in the modern day and I can BARELY keep up with some of this.
If you just follow one royal line it is mostly quiet simple (father to son) if not you mostly ended up with some kind of war over the succession and most people didn’t live long enough to witness more than one or two changes. But I would guess that the normal folks didn’t care that much or were more occupied with the local representative of the king and the local nobility who could be a major pain for the peasants.
Intresting video! Thank you!
This video was what I was waiting for after part 1
I’d say King Felipe VI has the best claim considering he already sits on a throne & you’re using Semi-Salic law the whole way which is more consistent; I also think Duke Franz of Bavaria could be good as well but Felipe VI is better because he already is a monarch in 2022
*Actually, the line of Charles X didn't go extinct. His male-line grandson, Henri, Count of Chambord was the last legitimist pretender to the French throne from the French House of Bourbon. However, his sister, Louise Marie had married the Duke of Parma. Their son, Robert was the last Duke of Parma and the heir of Henri through both semi-salic law and male-preference primogeniture. He was followed as Head of the House of Bourbon-Parma and as titular Duke of Parma by three of his sons, Henry, Joseph and Elias. The first two died childless, but when the third brother, Elias died, the headship passed to another brother, but he did have a female-line grandson, Carlos. He was from another Bourbon cadet branch, the House of Bourbon-Two-Sicilies, and as such Infante of Spain and Duke of Calabria. His son Pedro is the current Duke of Calabria and claimant to the Headship of the House o Bourbon-Two-Sicilies. (See Matt's video about **_Who Would Be King of Italy Today?_** for further details.)*
Just following this through to Elizabeth II was bad enough...as one of my teachers in high school liked to say, "Now it's time to play Confuse the Class!"
So according to you UsefulCharts... King Felipe VI of Spain is a potential claimant of both the throne of the Roman Empire AND the throne of the Holy Roman Empire! Wow
Thank you for recognizing Charles Simple. I had been rooting for that for a while.
I also spent hours tracing it myself
when you’re a potential most senior descendant of Charlemagne as a Holy Roman Emperor and also the heir of the Roman Empire
The absolute primogeniture heir could actually be one these four candidates:
-Me
-You
-MrBeast
-Matt Baker
I can see why semi-Salic law died out. It's way too complicated!
So of the six choices here, five are royals and one is a Dj in South Africa.🤣🤣🤣 That's some fine research you do there Matt. 👍
I love this series.
I think it makes sense to follow the heirs of the French branch of the Carolingian house as they were the male only line branch that survived the longest. When Louis V died he had an uncle: Charles duke of lower Lorraine. Charles would have been succeeded by his son Otto who would have been succeeded by his brother Louis. Louis was the last known legitimate member of the Carolingian house. From this point onwards I will use male only line primogeniture unless their is no males left when I will go to the most senior female. I like male preference primogeniture the best because it is historical but not too misogynistic. I am using male only because that is what the Carolingians used.
At this point I will have to go through Louis’s sister: Ermengarde. She married the count of Namur so her descendants where from the house of Namur. The last known member of the house of Namur was Charles Count of Luxembourg. It would then have went to his daughter Ermenside countess of Luxembourg. Her descendants were the Counts and Dukes of Luxembourg. Interestingly the house if Luxembourg had four holy Roman emperors. The main and senior male only line branch of the family died out with the death of emperor Sigismund’s first cousin once removed: George. There was a junior branch of the family though which hadn’t died out yet. I call this branch the Ligny branch because many of its members were counts of Ligny. It would die out with the death of Hendrik van Ligny in 1616. His daughter Margarita would have inherited. The male line died out again which the death of her son Henry. So the line would have went to her daughter Magdalena whose descendants were members of the house of Montmorency. If I did my research correctly the male line ended with the death of Anne Francois. His heir was his daughter Charlotte de Montmorency. Her descendants took the name of her family. The male line died out again with the death of her grandson in 1862. His heir would have been his sister’s son Goutran Duc de Bauffremont Courtenay. Goutran’s descendants were the dukes of Bauffremont and princes of Marnay. Goutran’s great great grandson and is Charles Emmanuel Duc de Bauffremont. Charles Emmanuel would be Charles VII as heir to Charlemagne. I believe that he is a potential heir to Charlemagne.
Here is a list of the heirs to Charlemagne after the death of Louis V of France following this potential succession:
Charles IV
Otto
Louis VI
Ermengarde I
Robert I
Albert I
Albert II
Albert III
Godfrey I
Henry I
Ermenside I
Henry II
Henry III
Henry IV
John I
Charles V
Wenceslaus I
Sigismund I
George I
John II
Thibaud I
Jacques I
John III
Francis I
John IV
Francis II
Henry V
Margaret
Henry VI
Magdalene I
Charles VI
Anne I Francis
Charlotte I
Anne II Charles Francis
Anne III Louis
Goutran I
Pierre I
Pierre II
Jacques II
Charles VII Emmanuel
How about: "Who would be the King of Naples today?" There are so many potential answers. You can go with the heirs to the Bourbon-Two Sicilies line, the House of Savoy as Kings of Italy, the main bourbon line can be claim the throne, the Habsburgs, there is an old Anjou line somewhere too. The line of Anne de Montfort-Laval, there are so many interesting options!
Technically, the only heirs of the Kingdom of Naples would be the House of Murat, as it was only in Napoleonic times that a "Kingdom of Naples" legally existed. Yes, there were plenty of kings who were informally known as Kings of Naples, but legally their title was "King of Sicily", even if they didn't own a square inch of the island, and that island being ruled (usually) by completely other "Kings of Sicily". Thank the Sicilian Vespers for that mess...
@@thomasrinschler6783 True
I am addicted to your videos! I discovered them pretty recently but you got me. I love history and would love to trace my family tree (very hard to do so). But I must say that your atheist videos were perfect and I rarely see myself on videos about atheism and you nailed it. Congrats.
2:36 Reginald's younger brother William: Am I joke to you?
Id go for louis alphonse of bourbon the duke of anjou instead of felipe.
The most senior descendant of charlemagne based on semi salic
My husband had no idea I had ordered one of the posters :D He was very pleasantly surprised ^-^ Now if only we had more walls. Once we have a bigger place we are probably going to place it between our two coats of arms plaques.
Hope you repost your video for today: NATO Command Structure 2022. I was so excited to watch it. Something must have gone wrong. I am a very visual person and get so much out of charts. Thank you for all you do.
3:27 Alfonso X had several sons.
The first son named Ferdinand de la Cerda died before his father. So, he never become a king. But he did have some sons of his own.
The second sons named Sancho usurped the right of his nephews to the throne. He became King Sancho IV.
So, if you really want to stick with the senior line. You have to trace the Ferdinand de la Cerda line. I read that this line today become the Dukes of Medinaceli
This just makes me wonder about the Byzantine emperors.
6:47 «His eldest surviving son renounced his rights.»
I am pretty sure he renounced only to his claim to the Spanish royal throne, not to an imperial throne he may not even know he could have a claim to.
That makes Louis de Bourbon aka Louis XX the semi-salic heir.
Fascinating! (and it explains what I didn't get in the previous video)
However, it comes to my mind that we could suggest another candidate: the title passed from Alfonso XIII of Spain to his son Juan, the grandfather of Felipe VI. But Juan was a younger son! The most senior heir is actually the grandson of the eldest son of Alfonso XIII, i.e. the Duke of Anjou Luis de Bourbon, who also happens to be the eldest of the Capetians as Louis XX. Or did I get it wrong? Anyway, I love your work
Have you done a video going back as far as possible to find charlemanges oldest verifiable ancestor?
It has to be King Felipe, particularly in light of your video that says he is also the current Roman emperor.
Well duuh my vote's on Elizabeth II. Not only is she senior by semi-salic law, but she is also legitimate and descendant of Charlemagne through many lines.
My family line traces back to King Olav Tryggvason of Norway. I was terribly excited until I found out that his modern day descendants number in the tens of thousands!
I’m a direct descendant of Charlemagne.
Me too! Shall we stage a coup?
Me three! Let's start a revolution!
yeah so am i, wanna fight for the throne?
Same. We ride at dawn!
I am a descendant of King Edward III. So, I am now going to depose Queen Elizabeth II and take over England! Who is with me?
I'd be interested who it would be using absolute primogeniture. I know you said it wasn't possible due to incomplete records but we're working on assumptions anyway, can we just assume that the records we do have is complete and correct? And if it were, then who would it be?
Birth dates often weren't recorded, for minor nobles even into fairly recent eras it seems, so determining birth order becomes its own problem.
I think that the most senior heir of Charlemagne via absolute primogeniture is either someone ordinary whose connection to Charlemagne is completely undocumented or someone whose family remained in the lower nobility, at least until recently. At least I don't think it's me since you'd need to have an unbroken line of people whose older siblings, if they existed, have no surviving descendants. I'm the oldest and so is my mother by I don't think her mother is, and her father definitely isn't. My father isn't the oldest either, although it's not impossible his older brothers could not have any grandchildren I guess.
My favourite modern Charlemagne descendant was of course sir Christopher Lee, but since the awful year of 2015 I'd say his daughter Christina
From among the given options, given the Roman Emperor video, my loyalty would go to the King of Spain, especially because that line passes through my second favourite monarch, HRE Charles V and I of Spain.
Super Film
So it's a King, a Duke, a Queen and a DJ... Sounds about right 👍
Let's go with the DJ!
The duke of Gloucester could also work, or the most senior heir of bourbon, even though his line got skipped for Spain. And as the last kings of France with strong blood ties the orleans family could also work
Wait, why the duke of Gloucester?
@@zuri2002 Prince Richard is the most senior male line descendant of Prince Albert, which is the line that the original video followed, but deviated to Elizabeth assumine male-preference rather than semi-Salic.
@@piratesswoop725 Oh gotcha. But wait tho, in this video didn't he say that Semi-Salic allows female-line grandsons to inherit? So it should be Prince Charles, then?
@@zuri2002 I believe that if the daughter has children they can inherit as long as they aren’t minors. Charles was only four when his grandfather died. These days, a child king isn’t really a big deal but back in the day, could lead to civil war. Prince Richard’s father was still living and was 52 and would’ve been a more ideal candidate than a four year old grandson.
You could also include the Bonapartes politically, since Napoleon ruled much of the lands Charlemagne once ruled, and more. Napoleon had seen himself as the New Charlemagne.
The difference is that the Holy Roman Empire had direct continuity from East Francia.
Napoleon's empire was built on a republic which replaced a kingdom which had had several dynasty changes.
Luigis real....
... or better Charlequagne, since that Corse dude destroyed all what he could have destroyed in Europa, including granitic Switzerland !
la quagne : fureur destructrice d' un individu hargneux qui ne supporte que lui- même.
Charlemagne hated the French, Germans, English, Skandinavian, Slave, Spaniards and Portuguese, Semites, Africans, Creoles and with particular intensity yankee Mericans !
@@oldmountainhermit3347"Several dynasty change"
We went from Carolingian to Capet, Capet, Capet, Capet, Capet, Capet, Capet.
Twas differant Branches of the familly for sure but it was still the same Dynasty
Napoleon replace a short lived republic which barely managed to replace the monarchy and still had alot of trouble justifying its legitimacy compared to a dynasty which ruled France for over 800 years.
And ironically unlike the HRE who wanted to ALSO emulate the Roman Empire more than just the Frankish, Napoleon's Empire sought to emulate solely the Frankish not the Roman or at least not explicitely
Hi Matt, I was wondering what your thoughts were on Crisper and Cas-9 Gene editing. I was wondering could you please make a chart explaining how many Generations it would take for a Rich Person with Crisper Gene's to pass on to the General public population? I find all your charts and videos fascinating and entertaining. Thank you.
eventhough the line of Flanders never claimed it, wouldn't it be interesting to see who of their line might have a claim?
everything always just ends up with King Felipe of Spain as the current heir
I love the South African DJ angle!
I would also consider the current claimants to the throne of Italy of the house of Savoy if we follow the Scottish Jacobite claims as they off loaded their claims to the British throne to the house of Savoy -prince Filiberto is the main representative of that house today and he was a contestant in Italy's version of "Dancing with the Stars."
click at 2 seconds, gotta do that fade in
I support the hohenzollen, mostly because after your last video i wikipedied my way into the same answer. Or mostly the same answer, i got until the Luxemburg House and then there were too many female in a row so i wast sure to apply salic law anymore.
i was disapointet in part 1, before watching hope to get better answers here!
I was disappointed twice, unfortunately :(
Fantastic video keep it up your doing amazing job 🔥
Can you do 'who would be the most suitable heir for the Abbasid or Umayyad Caliphates?' I am quite curious about that person haha
You might find this interesting, if nothing else. The Holy Roman Empire was reborn on November 3, 2009 as the European Union.
Following WWII, the empires of Europe lay in ashes. Great Britain, Germany, France, Italy, and the other European powers were reduced to rubble. These were the old traditional powers that had been running the world and they weren't about to be left out of the post-world war power equation on the horizon.
There were two emerging nuclear superpowers: the Soviet Union and the United States. Winston Churchill recognized the need for a radical realignment or else Europe would become irrelevant.
Shortly after the end of WWII, Churchill proposed in a speech that they establish the United States of Europe. He said in the day of nuclear superpowers it would take a population of 200 million to have the population base and the economic resources to play ball in the days of nuclear superpowers. Churchill said they had to forget their differences and unify as one in a "United States of Europe" or all the power would move to the Soviet Union and the United States of America. The old proud states of Europe were accustomed to playing a central role in world affairs and did not want to be elbowed outside of history. Consequently, they made a decision.
In 1957 Europe signed the Treaty of Rome which created the Common Market. Their first goal was to create an economic union, but that was not their ultimate goal. Each respective leader understood that the economy had to come first but a political union would follow. Once entities are joined together economically, they have to pass laws to control and regulate their interaction and ultimately, build a body of laws that would become a political as well as an economic union.
This union was set in motion by six nations: Belgium, France, West Germany, Italy, Luxembourg, and the Netherlands. Many of the other European nations had their doubts about its success. So, they sat on the sidelines. Nevertheless, it worked better than expected, at which time, other European nations signed up to join the Common Market: Great Britain, Denmark, Ireland, and Greece. Followed by Spain and Portugal. Then Austria, Sweden, and Finland signed on.
By 1992 all of the economic barriers were down. You could now raise crops in Germany and sell them in France the same way you could raise crops in California and sell them in New York. Some heads of state called it a success, but the bigger powers called it "phase one."
Immediately thereafter, they called a meeting in Maastricht, Holland, and on February 7, 1992, they signed the Maastricht Treaty. The goal of this treaty was to build on their economic union and form a political union. And on December 16, 1995, the euro was officially adopted in Madrid, which is the second-largest reserve currency and the most traded currency after the United States.
By 2004, The Common Market expanded to 25 member nations, many of which got rid of their currency and adopted the euro. By 2007 there were 27 member nations now called the "European Union" which had become the greatest economic power in the world with a population of 500 million.
Under their newly formed "European Union" the first currency minted was a coin called the ECU (European Currency Unit). They wanted to use an image that would convey the meaning and gravity of what was taking place. And on the EU’s very first coin was embossed the image of Charlemagne.
Charlemagne was the very first Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire. Pope Leo III placed a crown on his head on December 25, 800 AD, and announced that he was the first emperor of the Holy Roman Empire.
Was it because they understood they were residing over the rebirth of the Holy Roman Empire?
At about the same time, the European Union decided to award an annual prize to the state’s person who had done the most that year to promote European unification toward reaching the realization of a United States of Europe. They decided on naming it the Charlemagne Prize.
Bill Clinton received the Charlemagne Prize in the year 2000. Europe needed Yugoslavia to become part of the United States of Europe but Slobodan Milosevic did not want to lose sovereignty and so he resisted being melded into the EU. President Clinton led the charge and used the forces of NATO and took Slobodan Milosevic out of power.
Milosevic wound up on trial before the world court and Yugoslavia was forced into the European Union. Clinton went to Aschen, Germany to receive his Charlemegane Prize in 2000. This is an excerpt of his acceptance speech:
“The job of building a united Europe is certainly not finished, and it is important not to take all this self-congratulation too far.” Clinton knew right well what this prize was all about, he led the charge against removing Milosevic.
Only three Americans have ever received the Charlemagne Prize: George C. Marshall 1959, Henry Kissenger 1987, and Bill Clinton in 2000.
Not only do we have the Charlemagne coin and the Charlemagne Prize, but the most influential publication in Europe is a periodical called the “Economist” which some refer to as the periodical of kings and presidents. It's a weekly magazine owned by Lord Rothchild. Since Europe’s early thrust toward a united Europe, when they were still the Common Market, each week the Economist has devoted one page to the latest developments towards European unification.
The page is called the Charlemagne Page.
Do you think they just might have known what they were doing? There’s more.
When a European nation wants to join the EU, they must fill out an application and bring it to Brussels, Belgium to apply and begin negotiations. The designated building just happens to be called the Charlemagne Building.
The European Union also has its own flag. It’s blue with a circle of 12 gold stars superimposed on it. In 1987, following the adoption of the flag by the EC, Arsene Heitz (1908-1989), one of the designers who had submitted proposals for the flag's design, suggested a religious inspiration for it. He claimed that the circle of stars was based on the iconographic tradition of showing the blessed virgin Mary as the woman of the Apocalypse, wearing a "crown of twelve stars.” Heitz believed that the Holy Roman Empire flag should have the element of “holy” on it.
Except, the woman on the beast is not the blessed virgin.
The European Union vehicles also have a circle of 12 stars on their license plates and on printed euro. Having established all of this, the European Union now wanted a constitution.
On October 29, 2004, in the same room in which the Treaty of Rome was signed to found the Common Market in 1957, all member nations (25 at the time) signed the constitution. There was one glitch. All 25 members and all of its citizens had to agree to come under this new constitution.
In 2005, France held its referendum and the people voted it down because they knew it would end their sovereignty. Shortly after, Holland voted it down and the EU went into a two-year reassessment.
Europe had been working toward European unification since WWII. Well, we all know how resourceful politicians can be. After realizing they’d never get enough votes to form the constitution, they decided to convert the constitution into a treaty and have all nations adopt the treaty, because treaties don’t require a referendum among all people.
On December 13, 2007, represenitives from all 27 member states (at the time) made their way to Lisbon, Portugal, where they signed the new treaty which everyone knew contained all the elements of the constitution.
When is a constitution not a constitution? When politicians call it a treaty.
However, they still needed to have ratification by the parliaments. Except that Northern Ireland had a required referendum built into their constitution. Nation after nation began ratifying in their parliaments and things moved along when Ireland voted it down. The larger members told Ireland that if they wanted to remain in the European Union, they had better find a way to change their vote.
After hundreds of millions of dollars funneled into a huge public relations campaign to get Ireland’s people on board, Ireland held another vote. By then, they were in the middle of the 2008 economic crisis and didn't want to be left alone to struggle.
Finally, on November 3, 2009, the last nation ratified and one of the five greatest prophetic fulfillments in 2,000 years was realized when the signing of the Lisbon Treaty by all member nations was held in a monastery.
The rebirth of the Holy Roman Empire.
One of the elements that the constitution (that’s not a constitution) provided for was that Europe would have its own president and its own Foreign Minister like the United States of America has its own president and secretary of state. A couple of weeks after the final signing of the Lisbon Treaty, on November 19, 2009, Herman Van Rompuy of Belgium was chosen to become the first president of the European Union, and Catherine Ashton of Great Britain was chosen to become the first Foreign Minister.
Not everything is fully in place and it isn’t clear which nations will form the ten-nation alliance, but we're getting close.
The Holy Roman Empire was reborn as the European Union on November 3, 2009. History bears this out and is proven in world events with amazing accuracy.
Most recently, you can Google the article below:
The title is interesting and it isn't an article published by a religious organization.
EU Superpower: The New Holy Roman Empire, March 15, 2022
The same with this article by Financial Times, January 20, 2016. Also not written by a religious organization, either.
"The Holy Roman Empire can help inspire a different European Union"
"We should look to the example of Charlemagne, writes Peter Wilson"
From an end time Bible prophecy viewpoint, God confirms prophecy in world events.
It's not self evident to me that getting to the Plantagenets gets you to the Jacobite line, since Henry VII took the throne by right of conquest and not by seniority.
HI, CAN YOU PLEASE DO A CHART ON THE GILDED AGE FAMILIES, LIKE THE VANDERBILTS ? THANK YOU!
It’s crazy how history plays and how our life’s semi connect… Charlemagne is my 36th great grandfather… Queen Elizabeth is my 20-25th cousin… when you follow the tree you can see your story
I don't know about you guys, but I think it's about time we have our first DJ monarch.
I knew Aragorn would be in there somewhere, long bereft of lordship!
My boi Jhatmaster rubbing shoulders with the greats!
8:13 if you buy the theory that Edward IV was born out of wedlock then you end up with Simon Abney Hastings
I'm proud of the nobles keeping their lines for generations.. most housed never lasted
Any chance you could go into more detail on the Anscarids? (Unless you did in this video, I'm typing before watching, seeing them in the bottom-left of the screen.) There's so few videos about them but I'd love to know more.
It's fascinating how current monarchies and duchies (UK, Spain, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg) all turned out to be descendant in some way or another of Charlemagne. Truly showcases how that state filled the gap formed by the decline of Rome.
In some ways, current European bureaucracy is somewhat similar to the HRE. Same way you have several tiers of integration, electors, federal posts etc. I wonder when it would start to centralize. I think it needs another 100 or 200 years to digest East Europeans before consolidating further.
Klaus Schwab Im sure has claim on it also , LOL
@@roboparks the Swiss had the plebiscite on joining the EU. They rejected the confederacy as far as I know. They prefer to stay on the sidelines being supposedly 'easy to invest in' and 'neutral'. However, their neutrality is on decline - their taxes are no longer beneficial, some European states offer even more generous places to invest in, so they support the Western position more and more actively.
@@user-ft9ul5ul5v Schwab might live in Switzerland but he is from and born in Germany. His dad ran a company during WW2 for the 3rd Reich .The Swiss have never been on the sidelines . That's a ahistorical fantasy . We know they were supping the Nazis in $$$$$$ indevenors. Ya the Habsburgs were so Neutral ? He probably related to them . He looks inbred LOL
The car race guy!!
Confusing but interesting 🤔.
You should do the capetine dynasty family tree in france and in other countries
Prince George of Wales being 43rd generation from Charlamagne through both his parents is a strong contender.
can you make one of Spain. I meant since was many kindoms like Leon, Castilla, Navarra, Aragón etc...
At least for me it is much more interesting than the others
Btw the Bourbons are the luckiest dynasty, it is surprising how they arrived to the throne 😐
The fact that Habsburgs have became genetical monsters has to something to do with it, if you add the fact that France won the succession war it seems pretty logic
In Spain not tooo much luck, i mean they landed there because the Bourbon King of France was the strongest single king in Europe and was neighboring Spain on like 4 front at least
In France oh hell yea when Henri III was assassinated as France had a strict Salic male only primogeniture line they had to go all the way to i think descendant of Saint Louis centuries prior to find the King of Navarra who was Henri IV of Bourbon, which pissed everyone off since he was protestant lol
Is there any throne or claim Felipe VI doesn't end up being the heir to?
No
That's what you get for imbredding for a 1000 years
Yes there are many of them.
Shit so far he’s got Roman emperor, king of Jerusalem, archduke of Austria, Spanish king, if Portugal and Spain re unite he’ll be king of both, most semi senior semic law heir of charlemagne.He’s got a really strong claim to
The French throne. By technicality his 2nd cousin should be heir of both charlemagne and also French throne.
You mentioned a Hapsburg named Karl and now I'm required to look at pics of Kaiser Karl
In a related line of thinking, I've wonder if Emperor Frederick Barbarossa has any remaining descendants left; including bastards.
I'm still with my guess on the first video that it was the descendant of a guy named Ángel de la Cerda Manglano in Spain. That line goes through a guy who was forced to renounce his claims to the throne, but was not illegitimate.
About the Herbertid Vermandois family : some state that the male bloodline continued through the houses of Chiny, Orchimont and Bohan…
Didn't expect a Habsburg to be on list still.😂