When you try to remove a counter from the archfiend after it leaves the battlefield, the "remove" part will fail since the demon is not on the battlefield anymore. But the rest of the ability still resolves, recognizing the number of oil counters on the demon when it was last on the battlefield. So if your demon has 0 oil counters when you untap, you lose even if you remove the demon in response to the trigger. But, if it has at least one oil counter, killing it in response will save you.
Why is that, wording wise? Shouldn't it whiff completely? If you lightning helix something and in response that thing gets hexproof for example you don't get the life, so why is the demon different? Alternatively, the number of oil counters on *it* should intuitively be 0, no? If it's not on the battlefield then by definition it doesn't have counters I'm not saying you're wrong, just trying to understand how exactly it works mechanically
@@tldreviewA targeted spell or ability will fizzle if all its targets are illegal. But Archfiend's ability has no target - it just refers to the creature, so it can resolve. Then when it does resolve, it refers to an object that no longer exists. In that case it uses the object's "last known information", specifically that it had 1 oil counter.
Great video, love this deck and I have most of the cards for it too! I found this ruling on Gatherer, which I think means that as long as Archfiend dies with some counters left on it, the ability won't lose you the game even if it's on the stack. This also means you get a chance to untap before self-killing it when it has one counter left. "If Archfiend of the Dross is no longer on the battlefield as its upkeep triggered ability resolves, use the number of oil counters it had the last time it existed on the battlefield to determine whether you lose the game. You can't remove oil counters from it if it's not on the battlefield, so you won't lose the game if it had only one oil counter on it before leaving the battlefield."
You're absolutely right about this list being top-heavy. All the decks I've seen lately drop Dross entirely and run Oni and Fear of Missing Out in the two slot. I don’t have a playset of FOMO, so I tried Immersturm Raider in that slot. He's a tad weaker but also happens to be a demon 😁
Great content! I like FOMO in the 2 drop slot. It’s a really good 2 drop, that can supplement Harvester. Also some lists play Blade of the Oni for an additional Demon in the deck.
Hey Arne, great job as a caster in the semifinals/finals. Sadly didn't have much time to watch all weekend. Cannot wait for next video showcasing Marcs Deck (:
I think it also depends if the Metagame adapts and we see a lot more Heartless Act as removal in the format again. In that case Archfiend would be a burden that can lose you the game on the spot. But most lists can only afford to run 1 or 2 since Fatal Push is way more efficient. And in this environment it’s still better to run the better card on paper (Archfiend)
@@kgx8805 Bloodletter is also just a pretty mediocre card on its own. Let's be real here, it's a 2/4 for a VERY restricting 4 mana that - again on its own - punches as a 4/4. Sure, the Synergy is great but in a midrange deck like this one you wanna play cards that are not only good in combination with the rest of your deck but can also stand on their own. It's quality over synergy. Bloodletter simply doesn't cut it. Even if the metagame adapts to Archfiend I think the deck will more like turn back to Sheoldred, The Apocolypse before adding Bloodletter.
Slasher seems like such a random inclusion. I understand it’s good in a vacuum and all, but the deck already wins when it gets going and slasher doesn’t get you there. Molten Collapse seems nice over it along with some other cheap interaction
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When you try to remove a counter from the archfiend after it leaves the battlefield, the "remove" part will fail since the demon is not on the battlefield anymore. But the rest of the ability still resolves, recognizing the number of oil counters on the demon when it was last on the battlefield. So if your demon has 0 oil counters when you untap, you lose even if you remove the demon in response to the trigger. But, if it has at least one oil counter, killing it in response will save you.
Why is that, wording wise? Shouldn't it whiff completely? If you lightning helix something and in response that thing gets hexproof for example you don't get the life, so why is the demon different?
Alternatively, the number of oil counters on *it* should intuitively be 0, no? If it's not on the battlefield then by definition it doesn't have counters
I'm not saying you're wrong, just trying to understand how exactly it works mechanically
@@tldreviewA targeted spell or ability will fizzle if all its targets are illegal. But Archfiend's ability has no target - it just refers to the creature, so it can resolve.
Then when it does resolve, it refers to an object that no longer exists. In that case it uses the object's "last known information", specifically that it had 1 oil counter.
@@AlanMalloyI see. Makes sense, thank you very much
Yep that's right. Interesting that Arne didn't know that.
@@this19suffering he's a really bad player
Great video, love this deck and I have most of the cards for it too! I found this ruling on Gatherer, which I think means that as long as Archfiend dies with some counters left on it, the ability won't lose you the game even if it's on the stack. This also means you get a chance to untap before self-killing it when it has one counter left.
"If Archfiend of the Dross is no longer on the battlefield as its upkeep triggered ability resolves, use the number of oil counters it had the last time it existed on the battlefield to determine whether you lose the game. You can't remove oil counters from it if it's not on the battlefield, so you won't lose the game if it had only one oil counter on it before leaving the battlefield."
I have been looking forward to see this deck piloted by you. I have seen some lists in which Fear Of Missing Out was played as additional two drops.
47:13 That HONK 😂
Inti and Fear of Missing Out seem like they could potentially slot in well
You're absolutely right about this list being top-heavy. All the decks I've seen lately drop Dross entirely and run Oni and Fear of Missing Out in the two slot. I don’t have a playset of FOMO, so I tried Immersturm Raider in that slot. He's a tad weaker but also happens to be a demon 😁
Great content! I like FOMO in the 2 drop slot. It’s a really good 2 drop, that can supplement Harvester. Also some lists play Blade of the Oni for an additional Demon in the deck.
Looks like some lists are on Blade of the Oni in the two drop spot (also a demon).
Hey Arne, great job as a caster in the semifinals/finals. Sadly didn't have much time to watch all weekend.
Cannot wait for next video showcasing Marcs Deck (:
09:21 Totally a FOMO hand 😂
I'm a simple man. I see Explorer I press like.
Me too.
arne tries to draw a 3rd damn land lately challenge (impossible edition)
Hi! Why not Bloodletter of Aclazotz to combo with Unstopabble Slasher?
Bloodletter is way worse as a card than Archfiend. And when you get to deal 10 Damage with Slasher you usually win that game anyways.
Even when it drains for 4 with the annex? @@ArneHuschenbethYT
I think it also depends if the Metagame adapts and we see a lot more Heartless Act as removal in the format again. In that case Archfiend would be a burden that can lose you the game on the spot. But most lists can only afford to run 1 or 2 since Fatal Push is way more efficient. And in this environment it’s still better to run the better card on paper (Archfiend)
@@kgx8805fair enough!
@@kgx8805 Bloodletter is also just a pretty mediocre card on its own. Let's be real here, it's a 2/4 for a VERY restricting 4 mana that - again on its own - punches as a 4/4. Sure, the Synergy is great but in a midrange deck like this one you wanna play cards that are not only good in combination with the rest of your deck but can also stand on their own. It's quality over synergy. Bloodletter simply doesn't cut it.
Even if the metagame adapts to Archfiend I think the deck will more like turn back to Sheoldred, The Apocolypse before adding Bloodletter.
Great deck will give it a try
Keep up the good work.
Slasher seems like such a random inclusion. I understand it’s good in a vacuum and all, but the deck already wins when it gets going and slasher doesn’t get you there. Molten Collapse seems nice over it along with some other cheap interaction