Part 1 DUCAR 212 Hemi Performance Engine Build Alternative To The Predator Ghost 212 Kart Engine
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- Опубликовано: 5 сен 2024
- This has been Part 1 of the 212 DUCAR Hemi engine Performance build series. If you liked the video, and are enjoying the 212 DUCAR Hemi engine build, you're welcome to join me on the channel if this kind of stuff interests you.
We will disassemble and inspect the internals of the DUCAR 212 Hemi to determine what new performance clone parts will work on the DUCAR 212 Hemi Engine. We'll see what we can use, modify or add to make more power. The DUCAR 212 Hemi engine includes a PVL cast aluminum flywheel. While not billet, these PVL flywheels have been spin tested to 17,000 RPM.
Parts I purchased from EC Carburetors:
DUCAR 212 HEMI Engine with PVL Flywheel: DYNO 212-1000 $219.99
70mm Wildcat 223 Flat Top Piston Kit: Part# 34004-00075-00-K $19.99
This is the Wildcat 223 piston that will work with the Part # 8281 EC Pinnacle 3.353" Billet connecting rod in the DUCAR 212 Hemi block.
I am looking into other piston options that include one with valve reliefs already cut to clear for the 212 DUCAR Hemi head as well so this parts list may change if or when better options become available. You may need to cut or grind some valve pockets on the top of the Wildcat flat top piston for clearance or purchase a piston with the valve pockets already cut as mentioned above. We'll get into clearances and fitting of parts in Part 2.
You'll need to choose your head gasket thickness based on the amount of quench you want for your engine. (The distance between the top of the piston and the bottom of the cylinder head)
Some guys like around .030 to .035 quench, I prefer .020 to .025 on a billet bearing rod / billet crankshaft engine build but on this one I'm probably gonna stick with .035+ due to the Hemi head design and stock crankshaft. Of course like all plans, that may change along the way when or if other or better parts become available.
Tennessee ThunderStix Banzai 265 Race Camshaft Kit, Lifters and 26lb Springs:
Part# TTS-265 $54.99
I like this camshaft. It's not a welded lobe cam so there will be some durability issues if you use heavy valve springs or high ratio rockers. It makes max power around 7500 RPM. With 26lb springs and large enough valves and carb it will spin past 9000 RPM. I don't think the included valve springs will work with the DUCAR 212 Hemi head but I've not gotten to that point yet. The valve springs that come on the DUCAR 212 Hemi look very good (18 LB by the look of them) so I may use those and work with adding an inner spring with special dual spring retainers. It's still early yet and this may change as we get further along in the build.
You can use any clone camshaft (.549-.550 shaft diameter) from mild to wild, it's your choice.
I also purchased a Mongoose 272 camshaft to use in this build and given that I did cut valve reliefs in the piston top I decided to use the Mongoose 272 camshaft as it has more duration and lift then the Banzai 265 camshaft.
Connecting Rod: EC Pinnacle 3.353 Forged Rod with bearing Part# 8281 $79.95
I have verified this Billet rod works with the 70mm Flat top Wildcat piston. The top of the 223 Wildcat piston is .017 below the deck on my block. Be sure to check yours and adjust your gasket thickness to match your chosen quench distance. Deck heights will always be different due to manufacturing so always check your piston to head relationship on every block. Most blocks using this combination will likely place the piston top .015 to .017 down the hole (Below deck). While you could likely use a thin head gasket with this combination, remember this is a Hemi head so some valve reliefs cut into the top of the piston would be a good idea. (I'm looking into more piston and rod options now) The camshaft you choose of course will likely determine how much distance you have between the valve and the piston top too.
EC Rod bearing inserts for Rod: Part# 8394 $17.50 (spare)
Wrist pin specs:
DUCAR 212 Hemi wrist pin diameter .715
Wildcat Piston wrist pin diameter .709
Bore Specs: 70mm
Stroke: 55mm
#212cc #enginebuild #kartracing #212ghost #kartracing #predator212 #predator224 #tillotson #billet #ringcompressor #wiseco #rings #besttools #bestgadgets #enginebuild #enginebuilding101 #KentuckyFriedFixes #224
it dumb not to buy this i cant believe i got 224 and not this thank you good info
I got some extra karts. We should do a joint build and auction the kart off for charity.
That's a great idea!
I purchased this engine back in February and have only run it on the bench just to confirm that it ran and do a few break in oil changes back when I first got it.. At that time I noticed that the crank seemed to have more side play than what I'm used to. I ended up getting busy with a bunch of other stuff and didn't have time to do anything with the engine until now. So far I have pulled the flywheel and side cover, removed the governor and oil sensor, and I will be starting off what I plan on being a mild build- a MOD2 cam, 26lb valve springs, and a knockoff Mikuni VM22 carb. After pulling the side cover off I can confirm that the crank end play that I originally noticed is coming from the flywheel side bearing. It seems awfully loose to me as well. Have you had a chance to take a closer look at yours? I"d love to get an update on yours if you have one. Thanks for your detailed and informative videos, I have found them very useful so keem em rollin out.
Small clips like that eclip are my worst enemy
LOL! Those little e-clips are terrible for big fingers! I did try Banzai's table top method recently and it does work. The clip snapped in place on the needle and I didn't bend it!
Hi mate top job buddy really looks like a decent engine
Hi Rob! Great to see you! Thank you my friend I appreciate you!
@@KentuckyFriedFixes your channel is flying mate well done
Waiting on a clutch for my 200 storm my spare ducar going on it stock form I'll be riding my storm this summer plan on buying a ghost to throw on it later I want to do stock comparison between them
I'll bet the Ghost will be almost identical to the Ducar 212 Hemi. The Ghost 212 flywheel is the big question.
@@KentuckyFriedFixes with track regulations I'd think they would put s better flywheel in but I do have a pvl laying around and a bullet 300 price point makes me think it will have a pvl if not this motor won't go over well and could be a grenade
Good stuff
Hi B MA! Thanks bud! I appreciate you!
@@KentuckyFriedFixes 👍🏻 same 🙏
Do you know how those stock connecting rods are as far as durability compared to the rods that come in a Predator? The PVL Flywheel is a great bonus but I guess since these Ducars come already governed at a higher rpm 5500ish? do the ducar stock connecting rods handle those RPM's well?
Ho John! The stock rods are good up to around 6200 rpm IMO if you don't up the compression ratio or run too heavy of a piston. It's after you pass that rpm mark they start to fail, and fast. The Ghost comes with a cast rod with the letters "LY" raised in the casting, exactly the same as the DUCAR 212 engines. I know they kinda talked up the Ghost connecting rod but it's just a stock rod. Whichever engine you choose to build I'd go with a billet rod with insert bearing for durability. The billet will handle the high rpm and the insert bearing is a plus when running light flywheels as the rod bore gets banged up a little more. It's easy to change out the insert bearings when you freshen up with new rings. It's around a $75 investment for the billet rod but well worth it to keep the engine from making picture windows in the block. Thanks!
LG stands for life's good. Also the predator ghost is a downgrade from the ducar 212. Ghost comes with a cheap flywheel and the engine block core is thin. Ducar out performs the ghost out of the box as well as you get a better deal over all when you count the high rpm flywheel and racing valve springs. Was excited to get a ghost until I saw one taken apart and realized it's not really a racing motor.
I think a lot of guys were a bit disappointed by their Ghost 212. It's just not a good value for what you actually get. Thanks!
@@KentuckyFriedFixes I'm new to small engine building and came into it by buying a off road go kart (unique beast) barn find. It came with a rusty predator 212 clone that had been sitting in the rain for a few years. I've gotten it running and upgraded it to a stage one mod but decided not to go any further with investing into it. I am sold on the ducar 212 as my next build. Thanks for making this video its to the point easy to follow and covers everything i was wondering about regarding the ducar 212 and more. Hats off to you Sir.
@@benstolen3797 You're too kind! I appreciate you!
I know this is an older video and I should just talk to gopowersports, but I didn't catch if the ducar can use a standard clone connecting rod or not?
Hi Quadriderkyle! Sorry for the delay, RUclips sent me a bunch of older comments all at the same time today. The Ducar engines use a standard clone connecting rod size (1.179")on the big end but the small end is the .716 diameter on the wrist pin. You have to plan your piston and rod combo in advance to order the correct parts that fit together. Personally I like the # 8281 rod (3.353") with the Wildcat 223 flat top piston and pin (.709) combo.
@@KentuckyFriedFixes thanks
Hey my friend! That looks just like my 224 but with a bigger valve cover and different looking fly wheel now I know this is supposed to be more like the hemi version but I would love to know if the fly wheel will fit my 224? And if so who selling it... I did some research of my own and I was told lighter flywheel ✖️ cam = reaching your power band quicker! I know it’s more to do but 60MPH is all I want with a nice mid range power band 💪🏽 would love your opinion on this thanks again awesome video!
Hi Janice! Any clone type flywheel should fit your 224. The PVL flywheels look great but the problem is they're around $90 if you buy the flywheel alone. So for $10 to $20 more you can get a nice billet flywheel which is better IMO. Dyno cams has the PVL flywheels. I purchased the Ducar 212 Hemi engine from EC Carburetors in TN to save on shipping as I ordered other parts at the same time as well. Lighter flywheels make for faster acceleration for sure but the main advantage over the stock cast iron flywheels IMO is that the PVL and Billet flywheels tend not to blow up on you like the cast iron flywheels do. That's a pretty good advantage regardless of performance! Thanks!
@@KentuckyFriedFixes The PVL must have went up in price recently. For the longest time they were $65.
NR racing still sells the GX200 aluminum for $52. Thing about those is they are timed to 22 BTDC. I'm using mine on the 224 with an 8 degree key that I filed a touch extra off. I didn't use a degree wheel on this engine but it should be around 31 BTDC. Started and ran nice at a fast idle for the brief cam break in run that NR racing recommends for the rattlesnake cam.
@@Deucealive75 I've noticed that about the PVL flywheels, the price has been increasing. The cast aluminum 39.95 cheapies just jumped to 59.95 on the bay place in the last week or so too. That was a quick $20 jump. Smart to follow their break in procedure on the cam. Light springs are especially important for break in IMO. Working on something now for cams. Get a video up when you get that monster running!
thank u for the info im breaking in my ducar as we speak is it a must to take the motor apart in order to go cruising like its going fine for me so far i feel like im kinda beatin on it a lil any thing i need to do to keep her going strong btw good ass vid
I would pull the side cover on any new engine with a stock rod, remove the rod bolts and cap, add loctite and retorque them to spec. I'll have a video coming out on this soon. Thanks
Nice teardown vid! I am curious if you know of any flywheel / coil options to change out on a Ducar 212 or Tilly 212 to get some juice to run a headlight for a mini-bike setup? Someone has surely done it, but i cant find help if they have.
Hi Rick! I have seen billet flywheels with the ring gear for a starter but no magnets inside for the charging system coils. Of course there are lots of electric starter kits with cast iron flywheels but when you need billet, none that I can find have magnets. I'd thought about placing some small neodymium magnets inside a billet flywheel with a good 2 part mix epoxy but keeping the balance would be a concern. As long as you know which poles are North and which are South it should be a straight forward project.
@@KentuckyFriedFixes thanks for the reply. I actually opted for a Wildcat 223 platform that has a pull start with one voltage coil to run a light kit while on. Should be interesting to setup on a minibike, and solves my needs. With a cast steel flywheel stock... I still imagine that at a limited 5k-6k rpms I should be good and wont be asking for more torque or speed. Ever torn one of those down?
@@rickwhitfield7617 Rick I've been inside a few of the Wildcat engines but the only 223 I've had on the channel was that Anbull 223. It's just a Wildcat with a non-Hemi type head. Love them Wildcat 223 engines! Good stuff.
i have the ducar 212 and I cant seem to fit any centrifugal clutch. tried several clutch but all are too small.
There are usually 2 common size output shafts for the small Chinese engines. The most common for the 196cc is a 5/8" (0.625") output shaft and the most common for the 212cc engines is the 3/4" (0.750") shaft. Most mini bikes with the 196cc engines will have a 5/8" output shaft. Some Chinese small engines also use a 20mm diameter output shaft (20mm = 0.787") on the 196cc small diesel engines, that would be a bit larger than the 3/4" or 0.750". If you don't have a measuring device to determine the diameter of your output shaft, you can use an open end wrench to determine what size your output shaft is and which clutch diameter you need. The correct wrench size will fit the shaft perfectly and reveal which one you have. Hope this helps!
The stock piston has valve reliefs in it. Is there any clearance issues with the wildcat piston?
I'm looking into some pistons with 2 valve reliefs already cut now to accommodate high lift cams. The stock piston has one valve relief cut. The Wildcat piston is also about .017 down the hole. The parts list may change if better options become available. We'll get to clearance of parts later. Part 1 is mainly disassembly and putting together a base plan for what parts may fit.
??? Will my gas tank from my hisun mount to the predator ghost ???
Hi JB, I'm not sure why this one didn't get thru but yes, the 196cc tank should fit the Predator 212 Ghost engine. The mounts should be exactly the same.
so would the ducar work well out of the box for a cycle kart?
The Ducar 212 is a good engine out of the box. I'd still check the rod bolts to make sure everything is torqued properly and maybe adjust the valve lash too before running it. (I do that on every new engine though) Thanks!
thanks for the advice and the heads up. why wouldn't they torque the rod bolts. 🤔thats why i asked what i did because i didnt want to tare it down,i just wanted to plug and play.@@KentuckyFriedFixes
@@consciouscoma85 Some quality issues are to be expected on the import engines. Some factories are better than others on the assembly but I have found rod bolts that were not tight and a few times, a bad crank bearing, even though the engine was brand new. Pulling the side cover to check the rod bolts is normally not a big deal. In most cases with some care during disassembly, you can reuse the same gasket for reassembly as long as you don't tear it. It's not a requirement to check over the factory assembly, but I do. Little things like making sure the bolts are torqued properly and maybe adding a drop or two of loctite will make sure your engine has a trouble free life. You can roll the dice, it's really up to the individual. The main thing is to not be intimidated by your engine. You can do this, with some practice you can do it well.
THANKS!@@KentuckyFriedFixes
I got. To. The card is it did that barring another site at firewheel bad
The flywheel side bearing was bad on mine. I think someone may have accidentally tweaked it during the assembly when they tightened the rod bolts. At first I thought it may have been one of the self centering bearings but after a close look, it was just a bad stock unit. It's worth a few bucks to install the good bearings on both sides. Thanks!
I know you can't get exactly but around what MPH could this Ducar 212 do right out of the box in a mega moto 212?
Hi JB! I don't know how fast it would be out of the box? Of course it would depend on the gearing and weight of the rider too etc. That sounds like a good video idea so we may have to find out and do a comparison! I'll likely buy another stock Ducar 212 and compare the built engine to the stock to check the performance gained, I like the way you think!
@@KentuckyFriedFixes Is Ducar just a high quality Honda clone?
@@JBBRAD9267 That's exactly what it is JB! Just a Honda clone but the quality of parts seems to be much better than the other clones on the market. Especially that engine block!
so should i get that wildcat piston cuz i just looked at mine thru the plug hole and man its black as hell smh can i clean it before i start it back up after i remove this god forsaken gov gear really a pain in the kisser
I like that Wildcat piston and EC # 8281 long rod combo. Really perks up the compression and the engine runs smoother (less vibration).
@@KentuckyFriedFixes thank u so alls i gots to do is pop the piston and im good know cutting or grinding ??? your kidding me so my cart at EC carbs is full with billet stuff should i just hold off and get the piston first what else would i need
@@AmericanCruiser The # 8281 connecting rod will be needed to use the Wildcat piston. You may have to check the clearance between the camshaft and the rod. (It depends on how big the camshaft is but mine cleared the Mongoose 272 cam with no problem.
@@KentuckyFriedFixes ok bet so mongoose 272 8281 connector and some devil juice and were cruisin is what ur telling me lol holy smokes pops thanks for this info now i have a plan Your the BEST in the Hoe Wide WoRLd
@@KentuckyFriedFixes your really alot of help and i trust anything coming from a guy that likes FuLL MetaL Jacket 10o%
Are you doing voice over in your videos ?
Hi Curtiss! Most of the engine build videos will be voiceover. It helps during the editing process to make the videos as brief as possible and probably most importantly, it keeps the channel rated "G" for all audiences. In the heat of the moment, I do tend say some "R" rated words from time to time if I damage my finger or hand. 🤣🤣🤣
Reinforced like the 224 hope you didn't pay over 200 hundred bucks for that😢
At the time I think this one cost $219. The aluminum flywheel that comes installed was worth $80. Much better deal than the Ghost 212.