RUNWAY INCURSION AT JFK + HEATED EXCHANGE AFTERWARD | Possible Pilot Deviation
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- Опубликовано: 10 янв 2020
- ATIS normally says "readback of all hold short instructions are mandatory".
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ATIS usually says "readback of all hold short instructions are mandatory".
You should point out the human factor pitfall of issuing an instruction and a query at the same time.
Also you should point out JFL has runway status lighting system.
hold short/cleared to cross always have to be read back with full call sign.
air travel getting scarier by the day
Like in all incidents, it is just not one thing that causes it. ATC tell the hold short instruction very fast, I could not hear it if not for the sub. Also, why ask for a gate at such critical moment? Further, no readback was made and ATC just ignored it? When she got gate 22 she should replied, Roger, confirm holding short RW 22R. And then the blame game starts. It is just not once fault in this.
Shouldn't have to put that into an atis
In the meantime... all the passengers are wondering why the pilot said "Delta 300 cleared to cross Runway 22 right" over the intercom.
Especially everyone that had a window seat on the right side of the plane.
@@afcgeo882 it's a joke mate
@@afcgeo882 /whoosh
haha good one
@@aw2069 cruel, but true :) and you can't even call a flight attendant to point at the aircraft approaching from the right, as they are all seated and belted at this time.
"DELTA 300!!"
when your mum calls you with your full name...
Useless screeching woman. She should be calling Delta 253 to abort or calling All Stop.
I wonder if the queen can read back the full names of all her children and grandchildren
@@turnip21388888 Errr, the "useless screeching woman" actually cancelled take off clearance apparently, at least that's what communications with Delta 253 later in the video seem to imply. It may well be that the take off clearance cancel wasn't picked up in the vid. And anyway, your comment was more than a bit chauvinistic.
@@javiercaselli
There are 2 tower frequencies, one for departure on 22R and one for arrivals on 22L
@@lloydfeng5716 Thanks for the heads up!
Is it common to have auctioneers in the control tower?
@@noxious89123 Lol!
The hardest part of getting my license literally was learning to talk to the tower. The plane I can fly but making heads or tails of SPrrkkkflabbtwotwozerosssssssssHOOORRKK!brreesprrkCopy? when you're learning can drive you right up the nearest tree. Still, that's on me and they have to move quickly because to the number of flights, number of communications per day that they handle, and as a pilot you learn to listen and get the info that you need.
Is it also common to have incompetent pilots in the cockpits? Delta 300 used his callsign only thrice in the whole conversation. Really makes you think how good of a pilot they are.
@@y_sosalty7174
Tower can over power the frequency coming from pilots so he might had said something but it got canceled out. Also why would tower gave him the hold short order just to follow where they are? She basically said “delta 300 holdshorton22 What is your gate number?” And pilot gave her the gate number and she went on and gave clear for take off to delta 253 soon after so I believe delta 300 who didn’t heard the first part was expecting instruction from the tower and only heard something about clear for takeoff. So he probably got confused. I would never cross hold short line till I can confirm for sure but I could understand things can get dirty like this quick.
"Delta254 clearalan runwa fo-le"
"Clearalan runwa fo-le, foDelta-to-fi-thre ."
"Sowesst threyow-won holshorttamykalfa ryton limacharl, conta-grownonwanwanfopoynine gday
This atc is one of the few people eminem afraid to compete against.
Underrated comment 🤣
@@MyOrangeString I agree. Made me laugh hard. The ATC is hardcore. She just lost herself in the music, the moment, she owns it, she only had one shot, to tell that Delta not to go...
@@kdawson020279 And underrated answer... 🤣
@@Roberto-pc1sw I could not help myself. I realize that "Lose Yourself" has almost become the "All Star" by Smash Mouth of rap, but when life gives you a softball, you swing. :)
Haha
Here's a revolutionary idea. How about everyone starts speaking clearly and slowly.
Right exactly. That controller sounded like she was running around with pants on fire
@@essel23fly just JFK things
@@JonathanC199 that is not an excuse to properly give instructions
Not so revolutionary...:) Refer to Annex 10 Radiotelephony Procedures - ICAO
"5.2.1.5.3 PANS.- Speech transmitting technique should be such that the highest possible intelligibility is incorporated in each transmission. Fulfilment of this aim requires that air crew and ground personnel should:
a) enunciate each word clearly and distinctly;
b) maintain an even rate of speech not exceeding 100 words per minute."
No problem, no choise of a flight time for you, and we’re set.
Usually when this happens in the US to pilots from France, China, Italy, latin america, etc, people blame the pilots because of their lack of english knowledge....but as You can see, even a native english speaking pilot can get confused when the controller gives instructions faster than Eminem
I legit thought I had left playback speed on double when she first spoke until delta 300 replies at normal speed.
@@glenelliott4829 I know right 😂😂
It’s easy to get “confused” when you’re not paying attention.
tie oneon The ONLY important duty during taxiing is safe taxiing.
One drives, the other communicates. There is pretty much nothing a pilot needs to do when taxiing on arrival except making sure he doesn’t run into anything.
You say “if he never had clearance to cross...” as if you didn’t see the video. Did you?
ATC: Lyrics coming at you at supersonic speed...
that "hold short" directive from Twr was extremely fast and sandwiched into a whole bunch of other stuff (unrelated to 253). I think the controller bears some responsibility here. Trying to work fast and efficient is one thing...but she was balls to the wall...perhaps too much so.
She was overwhelmed
It's fairly normal traffic for a ground controller. She wasn't talking to 253 anyways, it's not her job.
She really should of cancelled D253s take-off clearance instead of shouting Delta 300. Pretty poor reactions in situ.
@@Poseidon__ in the heat of the moment, it can be hard to follow protocol
@@wertbe1718
Protocol exists for "in the heat of the moment" situations, if you cannot follow protocol in those situations you are not fit for the job.
Wow. She did tell him to hold short of 22R, but she was going so fast, I'm not surprised he missed it. The lack of readback should have been an indication to repeat.
H=The pilot would be doing other tasks as well, so the brain has to have time to switch, just like vehicle braking distances have a thinking distance.
At the same time, missing an instruction to hold short is not the same thing as clearance to cross. Only thing that would really save the pilot here is a readback actually saying "cross 22R", but unless the CVR has it, DAL300 simply didn't have clearance to cross an active runway.
"And for those of you on the right side of the aircraft, you'll notice big beautiful Delta flight 253 is planning a Tenerife tangle with us..."
Tenerife tangle lmfao 😂
😂😂 Gold
God Damn he's coming straight at us!!!
@ Dang, it doesn't feel that happened nearly a year ago.
I shouldn’t lmao. But I did...... aaaandd now I am lmao again
I love how unphased Delta 253.
"Yeah, ok we won't tbone that plane. That's chill I guess"
I mean he saw that coming a mile away I’m sure. Kinda hard to miss an airplane pulling out in front of you. He was instructed and cleared to take off so he was following instructions so he was probably ready to abort the moment he throttled up.
@@GokouZWAR You can see Delta 253 slowing down without any instruction.
Delta 253 = very professional.
@@92RedRevolver Bro you know that isn't accurate right? that's the OP's placement, he just predicted it.
I experience this every day as an airline pilot. I understood the HS clearance from ATC, but it was fast, and should not have had a gate inquiry in the same breath.
Do you ask them to slow down when they turn their radio transmission into some sort of verbal speed contest, or do you just deal with it?
1. He was told to hold short at the last sec before crossing.
2. He did not call back holding short
3. She did not cancel takeoff clearance. She yelled "Delta 300" and began berating him instead of fixing the situation then berating him.
@@bassmentier that would be very unfair to say. that would be sexism to the max and it does not justify anything whatsoever...blah blah blah
BUT you are right and I agree "Never shoulda let them leave the kitchen." ha ha ha
Yeah, the fact that she focused on Delta 300 and who was wrong and who was right instead of fixing the situation and stopping 253 surprised me too. And then she told 253 the reason why she canceled the clearance which she actually never did, they stopped because they saw what happened.
> She did not cancel takeoff clearance. She yelled "Delta 300" and began berating him instead of fixing the situation then berating him
She's not a tower controller, so she wouldn't be talking to the aircraft on the takeoff roll and couldn't cancel takeoff clearance.
@@rondeijkers
That's not correct at all. The ground controller (which appears incorrectly labeled as tower) isn't talking to the aircraft on the takeoff roll, so she wouldn't have any way to tell them to stop. The person who was talking to them DID cancel their clearance, which is what caused them to stop. It isn't on this tape, but you can hear a second female voice at 1:44 on a different frequency that says to the pilots, "the reason why I cancelled your takeoff clearance was because of traffic on the runway".
A critical safety instruction (hold short) was immediately followed by a non-critical question (what gate). Separating the instruction and the question would have been safer and more efficient. Also, hurried communication is more likely to lead to miscommunication or missed communication.
Yep. Noticed that too. And the controller moved on to another aircraft without confirmation. However, no read back from pilot. Pilot deviation, yes. Poor execution by ATC, again yes.
I'm not sure why this is actually done by voice comms in 21st century, while civilian populace regularly uses twitter.
This mind-boggling fast-talk killed as many people as pilot errors themselves. It also has a potential to needlessly intimidate younger, more insecure or foreign pilots. To be frank, you just CANNOT hear 'hold short' instruction in her recording. maybe after becoming an expert you can half-expect it, and then kinda 'hear it', but that's not what communication is about or how it's supposed to work.
that said, if the world would semi-digitize the comms, and make it so that she has to instruct pilots over symbolic keyboard with a possibility of requesting audio for non-critical chatter, a) the miscommunication wouldn't happen, b) the pilot would have a hard reference (HOLD SHORT OF RUNWAY XY is kinda hard to miss or misinterpret), and also wouldn't forget the request if distracted, c) she would have more time to talk slower, and she would get more answers and more often, whaddya know.
additionally this would also let a potential near-future AI system to monitor over such comms as a precaution, not necessarily taking control away from the pilots, but instead to be able to automatically warn them on violating ATC directives. with the current setup, that's completely impossible, with her blabber-style WEGHUIWRWJ talk.
to put things into perspective, if ordinary cars had to talk like that on every intersection, we'd have a) hundredfold more car crashes, or 2) hundredfold less car drivers. choose.
@@milanstevic8424 I heard it. Maybe become a pilot and then speak. That controller was controlling takeoffs and landings at JFK, speaking slowly will get people killed. He most likely heard her give clearance to his company aircraft for takeoff and only listened to the "Delta" part of the clearance. If you cannot handle the speed of ATC communications, then you do not belong in commercial aviation. This isn't a pilot flying a Cessna who just got his license, this is a commercial airline pilot for a legacy airline. The least amount of hours he has as a pilot is 5,000. The pilot fucked up and almost killed everybody on his plane and his fellow pilot's plane as well. This was not on the ATC, she cancelled the takeoff clearance and gave him the dreaded, "I have a number for you to take down". If a pilot gets enough pilot deviations, they can lose their license.
Edit: As to that argument you made for AI controlling ATC operations, if you want to put your life in the hands of something that can be hacked, go ahead. Imagine if all the world's ATC was controlled by AI...terrorists could do an attack that makes 9/11 look like a joke. Just by hacking that system.
@thopkins22 You do not need to speak fast to save lives on one plane, or even ten. You need to when you are controlling 30 of them at once. Oh yeah, by the way, every one of those planes is going well over 100 miles an hour. By the time your slow speaking ass gave the instructions two planes would collide. If you are not a pilot sit down, shut up and let the grownups talk. No pilot wants automated ATC, they know it is stupid and unsafe. Like I said in my original comment, I am pretty sure what has happened here. Notice that the two planes in question are both Delta aircraft and the Captain taxiing in had no idea of that because he just landed on the parallel runway. Pilots listen for key words in the ATC callouts, such as their call sign and location on the field. He was told to hold at 24L and wait. He then heard the Delta in her next callout and cleared on 24L. He assumed she was talking to him for taxi clearance, not his company aircraft for takeoff clearance. Automation can not even safely drive cars yet and you want them controlling vehicles going over 100 mph?? Okay.
@@brianeleighton Automation controlling vehicles going over 100 mph? Gosh. Let's hope they never introduce automation on aircraft. And only pilots are grown-ups?
That is why the readback is always important.
Also speaking slower is a large help. That controller speaks so fast it's a wonder anyone can understand her!
archive-server.liveatc.net/kjfk/KJFK-Twr-1191-Jan-10-2020-2330Z.mp3
3:47. Pilot readbacks.
@@bagelfishing1043 Yeah he's given the hold instruction earlier and reads that back but after he's holding you get to what we actually hear in this video where she gives him the hold instruction again and also asks for his gate number. I can see why he would think he's getting clearance to cross the runway if he already got the hold instruction.
@@neonwired4978 from the pilot's perspective he's told to hold short runway XX and then he's called a few minutes later with another instruction about runway XX and a question about his gate number. If you don't perfectly hear the first part of that instruction, it's natural for your brain to fill in the blanks with "cross runway XX". He absolutely needed to read that back instead of just crossing without being 100% sure and the ATC absolutely should have made sure he reads back the hold short instruction, but giving a pilot the same instruction twice is absolutely a possible cause of confusion
@@GaryNumeroUno There's a proper response to that: "[relevant transmission addressing and information] repeat please." He did not ask for a repeat of the transmission. If there was any question, he was supposed to ask for a repeat.
Also if there was a readback, it was pretty garbled. She should have asked for a readback.
I've talked to two retired air new zealand captains and said even they have a hard time understanding ATC in busy airports in the US even more so than airports in Asia.
Can I also be added to the group chat 😭I love aviation . would love to talk to a fellow airplane enthusiast and ANZ pilots. I fly the airline pretty often from SFO LAX to AKL
The wretched new york accent doesn't help either.
I am surprised accidents don't happen more often with how fast and unclear they talk.
I used this video as an example on my CFI checkride when introducing runway incursion avoidance. Appreciate the well made video, the DPE seemed very interested! Thanks for all the great aviation content.
"Advise ready to copy a phone number"
Most feared words in aviation by far
He must have lost his job, well idk but seems like a pretty serious mistake.
Why so? I know nothing about aviation so I don't know what it means
@@ShiftzyFTW to talk with the big boss lol
Ya what happens when you call that?
culdeus That’s usually the number for the manager of the tower. They’ll pull the tapes and go over what happened. They’ll also likely file paperwork with the FAA which can result in anything from a slap on the wrists to losing your pilots license.
When she exclaimed: "Delta!!!", Delta 253 got frightened and said that it's cancelling take off clearance. This is like mom scolds her first son and the second one starts fearing looking at her anger...😂😂😂
That or they didn't feel like running into the plane that was crossing the runway right in front of them
@@abec949 👍👍👍
Sour, you are totally wrong. Sorry.
But I still like you, anyway.
😂
that or they had visual on a plane right in their path that they're taking off from
That’s why it’s important to talk clearly, and not like you’re on speed
Delta 300 never read back “clear to cross,” but ground control also spat that out faster than my ears could hear. When asked “what is your gate number” coupled with “hold short,” they caused confusion. Either/or, I never heard Delta 300 read back “cleared to cross,”’or “hold short.”
Also the pilot instantly responding with "you say you said that, but..." makes me feel like this is not a nice pilot to have to deal with in any professional way.
@@esenel92 She was talking at lightning speed to two Delta planes. She wanted him to hold short while she cleared the other one to take off. However, she rambled so fast on a radio, that the guy in the cockpit never noticed the hold short, but the question about the gate number, while also hearing the words "delta" and "cleared", which at the rate she spoke, will probably have completely butchered the informations she tried to give out. The callsign numbers got lost, as well as several vital instructions. This is why the pilot then said "you cleared me through". She should never ramble so fast, it turns into word salad. Remember that these guys don't have colorful subtitles to follow along.
she is fine to ramble fast. but she didnt take the readback. so she made the big mistake and she is the deviation. @@LS-Moto
@@lukeno4143 But she rambled so fast, that its almost hard to tell where one message stops and the next one begins. Yes, the pilots should have read back, but the point is to give instructions that are clear, not play a game of 10 readbacks, because she speeds through the instruction. Other ATC are able to manage airports while speaking clearly, so why can't she?
JFK: "Delta 300 hold short 22R at J. What's your gate number?"
Delta 300: "22"
LATER
Delta 300: "I read back everything you instructed!"
Kaipeternicolas unless theres earlier conversation not included. Started pretty late into incident
RonnyApacolypse What happened earlier is irrelevant. They were told to hold short, didn’t read back and didn’t hold short.
Did he miss the radio button?
A flat out lie. And easily proven. Ground that incompetent liar NOW!
@@allgrainbrewer10 Exactly! His response should have been 'I believe I heard clear to cross. I'm sure it's recorded though, and if I did make a mistake I'll accept responsibility'. That I can understand because it shows he's willing to correct himself for the future if proven wrong. However, to flat out argue and lie shows no integrity and he's a danger to all of us pilots. Get him out of here!
As a regular International English speaking pilot flying into JFK I find some of the controllers near impossible at times to understand as many of them speak far too fast. I understand it’s a busy environment but slow it down a little and less repeating of instructions will be required. Remember many of us have flown across many timezones and clear, consise taxi instruction are all that’s required.
Just think how those people with hearing loss feel when others speak that way to them. Whether people mumble, speak too fast, speak too quiet, etc - it makes it quite difficult for those with hearing loss to understand them. Not all people with hearing loss can read lips.
Wild Rover I am not disagreeing with you, but as a guy who’s flown into JFK hundreds of times over the last 29 years, I had no issue whatsoever understanding everything ATC said in this case. I found her far better than average for JFK honestly (and I’m a regular critic of JFK ATC).
JFK should be required to hire non-New Yorker's. They tend to lack self-awareness when it comes to their dialect and the fact that it is often not standard English.
Speak carefully and clearly, just like a UK controller does.
Ken F - Well said and if it's such a busy environment maybe the airport could employ more controllers (I'm non aviation and I stand to be corrected).
I completely missed her hold instruction. And she she asked for gate number RIGHT after the hold, making the pilot focus on the question instead of the instructions.
Getting some ATC personnel to speak slower and more clearly is like trying to get some doctors to write legibly. I think it should be required by law seeing as how both those professions have so many lives at stake.
"Delta 300, hold short of ranututurozulo. What is your gate number?" - "huh... t w e n t y - t w o." - "k"
Lol this give me laugh as hell
“Hold short” is all he needed to hear and that was pretty clear.
@@davidgunther1282 Exactly. At this level in your profession while taxiing and approaching any runway intersection "You'd think that they'd be anticipating their Call-Sign enunciation and a quick instruction from ATC. Well, maybe that's just me.
@@davidgunther1282 Both sides messed up, luckily it ended well. Pilot should not cross active runway unless they're sure they have clearance. ATC shouldn't interrupt her own instruction with a question, and should have verified the instruction before moving on.
@@MrNateSPF when did she "interrupt her own instructions?" She clearly tells them to "hold short of runway two-two right at juliet, what is your gate number?" He's required to read back the hold short instructions and he didn't, and she never verified he understood the instructions by making him read them back, that's true, but that was her only mistake here. The pilot not only was told to hold short (quite clearly,) but he failed to read back those instructions to hold short and then proceed to cross an active runway without clearance which is a HUGE no-no. Saying they're both at fault is kinda unfair in my opinion.
I love how clearly the Jetblue 1374 crew reads back the hold short instruction @1:28.
Possiblly thinking "Nope, we are NOT going to"fail on this."
idk sounds like a pretty normal readback to me lol
@@vincelam1998 you mean normal outside of JFK? ;) well, at least they didn't pick up the rush of the moment.
Magánpilóta - Private Pilot N. Zoltán that’s true haha
Caught that, too. A little extra clarity from him to let them know he's aware of the situation. He held way back.
Next heard reading out the Terms and Conditions at the end of a Nissan radio commercial
Flying into Newark back in 1995 we had to abort a landing because of a taxiing error like this. Went from a few feet above the runway to 10,000 feet faster than seemed possible. People were throwing up after we leveled off and a stewardess was crying. Good times.
Wow that controller speaks awfully fast, has to be hell for the non-native English speakers flying there
American ATC is hell for non native pilots. They mumble fast.
I am American, and have a difficult time understanding someone who talks as fast as an auctioneer. However, in this instance, I actually heard her say to hold short of the runway. Too many people under too much pressure to keep things moving fast when safety should be the first priority.
It's hell for English speakers as well.
Mike Brown Safety IS the first priority. This was the SECOND time she’s issued him that direction AND that taxiway has a runway threshold light.
H M You’re free to think whatever stupidity that comes into your head.
To be fair... ATC has as much responsibility here as the pilot to Delta 300. She goes from an important instruction to a senseless question all in one sentence. She should’ve told him first to hold short. Then after he acknowledged then ask the gate question.
And he shouldn’t have lied about reading back.
@@regulator5521 it’s also her job to know if he read back. It’s that way so that there is a check if one messes up but in these instances you have both messing up and it falling apart
@@regulator5521 We never heard DAL300's initial taxi instructions, quite possible he was cleared to taxi all the way with a cross runway instructions. The hold short might have been an amended clearance that he did not read back and that the controller did not catch.
@@regulator5521 "Twenty Two"
@@endzordays answering her question =/= reading back. do you not know what reading back is. he read nothing back to her. the literal point of reading back is to repeat the information given to you word-for-word, so that it is clear that you got the right instructions. google's got a free dictionary built-in if you need it.
if he'd ACTUALLY read back, she would've caught it. instead he kept it in his head and acted shocked that she didn't divine his mistake from his brain- if he'd just fucked up, that's one thing, but he lied and tried to blame it on her like a teenager and not a trained pilot.
if he can't comprehend someone who's talking a little swiftly, he probably shouldn't take a job that relies on radio communications so much. it was pretty easy to understand her and the ATC recording isn't even as clear as it would've been over his actual radio.
DELTA 300: “You asked us that and I also - you said cleared to cross and I repeat that. I thought that’s what you said.”
DELTA 300’s actual “readback”: “22.”
Damn, he didn’t even bother with callsign either lol
I didn’t hear “cleared to cross” from either of them.
Also, listen up for other movement on frequency. She cleared another aircraft to depart the runway they were crossing.
This is why speaking only one language on frequency is important, but only if you pay attention.
I absolutely Hate it when controllers issue an instruction and a query at the same time.
I bet you hate walking and chewing gum at the same time to!! Guess that's why yer a soccer guy! Can't use hands and feet at same time either!!
@@looseouttaturn2 You don't know much about human perception mechanisms, do you?
@@pawepluta4883 ummmmmm...... LMFAO!!!! Loosen your belt a little!!
Yes, I don't think it's allowed, because the human brain will focus on the query, and answer it, and 9 of 10 will have forgotten the instruction, that's how our short-time memory works, focus moves to the latest question that must be answered. Add jet-lag, and odd working hours in different time zones, and stress.
THIS.
Notice ATC and pilot start to speak a bit more clearly only after the miscommunication. Slow down, use pauses between words, and verify messages.
All of this leads to the conclusion that the with the FAA refusing to regulate/limit takeoff/landing slots, the major airports are operating beyond safe capacity. Controllers are pressured to talk too fast while controlling too many planes. (old flyer).
I had to look up pilot deviation as I wasn’t too clear on what it meant and I got the fright of my life when I read “The penalties for pilot deviations can range anywhere from a FAA Administrative or Enforcement Action, a “709” ride requirement, *or even death.”*
Silly me thinking the death penalty was a bit of an overreaction... until I eventually came to my senses.
If your "pilot deviation" causes a replay of Tenerife, yeah, death is the result.
He did only answer the gate, but ATC should have restated the “hold short” instructions since Delta never said to hold short. Both Delta and ATC made a mistake, but the pilots really messed up.
ATC technically didnt mess up. Pilot cant cross an active runway without clearance. The command just is there to instil that you cant cross
Delta 300 said nothing about about clear to cross. Lying toad
@@waynecaffey4992 ATC does have a requirement to listen for and chase-up hold short instructions. It wasn't their fault that the aircraft crossed without a clearance, however there would have been no incident if they had chased the readback
@@haydos21 I und5what you're saying. However the pilot had never been given a clearance to cross the runway. Thus ATC didn't even need to give the command.
@@waynecaffey4992 but they DID give the command to hold short. He didn't hear that because of her badly worded run on sentence.. a statement ended with a question.. while talking 100 mph. He only heard the last part of the sentence ; the question.
Pilots didn’t read back the instruction, at least not during this recording, so they’re in the wrong there. However the controller did not prompt them for a read back, she threw in a question with an instruction, and she was talking awfully fast. I’m training as a terminal controller right now and these are all things we are instructed not to do, especially talking fast because they only cause more issues down the line. Not saying it was her fault explicitly, but she definitely had a part in it too.
Totally agree
humilis hæres Not talking fast? Have you heard of the Tower or Ground chatter of the larger airports???? The pilots need to learn to pay attention, as “Cleared to cross” and “Hold short” sound completely different. Also the pilot said he read back the instructions which he did not.
@@WimsicleStranger I'm not saying it isn't the pilot's fault. It totally is. And I agree that he was wrong for saying that he read back the instruction when he didn't. But controllers are responsible for ensuring correct readbacks, it's one of the most important parts of our job. It's why we're there in the first place. I understand that you have to talk at a decent speed, but the faster you talk the higher the chance that there's misunderstanding, and you end up spending more time on that clearance and possibly correcting it than if you had just slowed down a little bit.
And yes, I have heard the chatter at large airports. I'm training for a terminal in Canada that contains the country's 4th busiest passenger airport and 2nd biggest GA airport. It's constantly drilled into us to be safe, orderly, and expeditious in that order. Getting a correct readback, especially for something like a hold short instruction, is a much higher priority than being quick about something.
I agree here. There was another controller, who was talking normally. There is fast talking, and then there is fast like this controller. Pilot admitted it was his fault, but he just answered the question that was piled on top of the holding short instruction, and thought he read back. Pilot is responsible, but the controller should also talk a bit more clearly and pay attention to readbacks.
I wonder if the fact he was supposed to both read back “hold short 22R” and answer “gate 22” is where something twigged in his head.
I would love to see a convo between this air traffic controller and the sloth from zootopia
I've listened to it about 20 times and I'm pretty sure she said "Hold for the runway 22R", now "Hold for the" has the same number of syllables as "Cleared to cross". Maybe that made the difference? In any case mixing in a question about gate numbers and then only listening for that in the response was not the smartest play...
She actually says "hold short runway 22 right", which is standard ATC phraseology"
@@SirIdot I'm amazed that you can make that out. Without the subs, it's just gibberish to my ears.
That ATC woman needs to try the coffee in the green can.
Unavailable Username LMAO
Good one 🤣🤣🤣
She talking waaaaay too fast
I love this LOL
Wait, no! That's where I keep my cocaine!
Waaaaait a minute, we might be on to something here.
Sounds like she has all day to argue but absolutely no time to slow down her sentences
Tbf... if it wasn't for the Subs, I would have missed her saying 'Hold short'.
Man I'm glad I'm retired!
-- Kennedy Steve
Adam Moreira LoL
They are both at fault, He screwed up and she didnt ensur a readback which would have ensure all messages understood.
Yeah, but he flat out lied. He never repeated her instructions.
@@moncorp1 Well he never did repeat the instruction I agree, I would say mistaken rather than lied.
She should of clocked the none read back also, They are both wrong in my view.
But Delta 300 did read back the hold short instructions. It's been edited out of the above video for some reason. Listen to the archived transmissions link below and go to the 3:47 mark.
archive-server.liveatc.net/kjfk/KJFK-Twr-Jan-10-2020-2330Z.mp3?fbclid=IwAR0-4Za_wxmWsnvJcO3NC4n9Jmfvuwth0HQ4zqyGM5rb3_Fvu_qyJsHYyJ0
There is a separate audio recording available which lets you hear the pilot read back the hold short instruction. VAZ has done a very poor editing job on this!
@@ahisma yes I have heard it, the my point is on the final request she never got a read back. She did the first time after he vacated which is fine she repeated the hold short later followed by a question and didnt get the hold short.
The trouble with repeating the hild short sometime later is it could be misheard as a different clearance and if you do not insist on a readback things can get messy.
As an innocent bystander non flying Philistine, I have tons of respect for all pilots who are able to understand ATCese and respond as well as process information so rapidly while dealing with the stress of being in control of an airplane 👏
This is why when I fly in my sims I always listen to tower takeoff clearances when crossing. It's always good to have that situational awareness.
Just as important to listen to crossing clearances affecting your runway. when on tower. I have a friend who saved his (and someone else’s) aircraft at CDG doing that.
She was speaking sooooo fast, no wonder that there was miscommunication. First part of communication is to be clear, speaking at a rate of knots is not clear.
The busier the airspace or airport the faster they talk, I've already heard ATCs tell pilots to speak faster. Gotta pay attention, she should have waited for his read back, it sounds like she blocked it, calling another aircraft right after he said his gate number.
@@thetoecutter13 It's plain old too fast. I can understand it only because I'm sitting here on youtube not trying to taxi at the same time.
@@thetoecutter13 I'd rather they take a few more seconds to confirm their communication than to talk too fast or quiet and risk being killed. If it means they have to talk slower or clearer, then so be it. Being in a rush is not always a good thing. In fact, it can tend to be more bad than good.
Sad But Mad Lad Not sure what your aviation experience is, but I had no problem understanding what the controller said (and I’m a routine critic of JFK ATC).
HEDGE1011 Were you in command of an A-320?
She did say hold short, but so fast that it is barely comprehensible even to a native speaker.
He did not repeat anything back though. He answered gate number with no repeatback. Proper radio procedure saves lives.
It is not that hard to understand if you're a pilot. And in the unedited version Delta 300 read back the hold short instruction and crossed without receiving a clearance.
It wasn't so fast that it was barely readable. It was clear as day
@@RespectableRSYt No repeatback indicates that communication didn't take place. He didn't hear her screwed up instructions.
In b4 the WELL I COULD UNDERSTAND IT PERFECTLY...and yet others can't, which seems to validate the point that, maybe some pilots will. it be able to articulate the instructions because she's speaking way too fucking fast. Fast paced job, time is crucial, I get it, but 2 extra seconds to enunciate...?
Crazy that this just happened again
Speaking clearly and at a reasonable speed is the basics of an ATC's job. Whatever you say has no use if it cannot be heard
I know controllers are busy people and but damn, I couldn't make out what she rattled of machine gun style even with the subtitles.
problem with being busy and talking fast is, the faster you talk the less you get done.
I closed my eyes and still heard every word she said, if he was unclear he should have confirmed clearance.
i don't know what your point is because you would absolutely NOT understand most controllers at any major busy us airport during a busy wave of flights. but ok you can't read the subtitles cool.
She sounded fine to me.
Standard rapid fire protocol from ATC. If you can't keep up and/or is unable to "Read back the minimum" and most important pertinent details of ATC instructions and specifically comply with those instructions you'd better go find a different way to make a living. "We Professionals Play for Keeps". 😎✈🌍🏆
she mumbled at great speed a very important hold short instruction, but then spoke slower which gave more importance to a gate query. No wonder the aircraft missed it
The pilot did not miss it and there is a separate audio recording available which lets you hear the pilot read back the hold short instruction - sensationalist editing by VAZ!
she wasn't mumbling. she was clear. but granted the quality is not the best but also you seem to understand systems and communications theory so you obviously understand that this is a recording, from somebody's scanner a mile or so away at best, of the exchange uploaded to youtube and NOT an exact rendition of their exchange from tower to aircraft, right? RIIIGHT?
@@ahisma I would like a link
@@ahisma That was the first time the same instruction was read, this was the second time that we heard. You're talking about something that wasn't on this video.
@@margaretwilson8736 They were both at fault, the pilot was just a bigger idiot.
“You said that but I cleared my self cross” lol
I don't know if the video or atc recording is played at normal speed but that controller talks 100mph. Im watching on live atc RUclips channel and the clip begins with her giving those instructions that sounded to me in fast forward.
Seems DAL300 was in the wrong here, but that ATC could definitely slow down a little, and not add extra questions after "hold short". It takes two to dance, and the ATC should make it easy for the pilots to do the right thing.
demopem I had no difficulty understanding everything she said; she was far better than the average JFK ATC experience I’ve had over the last 29 years of flying there.
@@HEDGE1011 I obviously don't have your experience, but as a non English native speaker, I assure you it would be hell for me to deal with this kind of very fast talk if I were a pilot.
This pilot is certainly at fault, but this lady should also slow down just a little bit to make things clear. Thanks God there were the subtitles for me lol.
ATC combines transmissions whenever possible. 99 percent of pro pilots have no trouble understanding instructions and questions.
Maxime Lecocq I totally respect your viewpoint and am in no way endorsing speaking that fast. My point simply was I (and other experienced English-speaking as a primary language) pilots had no issue with understanding it.
As a rule I absolutely believe that slow and clear is the best and most efficient way to speak. As I said, this controller is nowhere near the worst offender at JFK. I have gone on record as saying JFK is my very least airport to fly in and out of, largely because of the controllers there (also the infrastructure is appalling). I am particularly horrified at how they treat non-native English speaking pilots. It embarrasses me as an American. Thanks for your viewpoint; I actually don’t think we fundamentally disagree significantly.
As a primary (pretty much solely) English speaker but not a pilot, the controller definitely spoke very fast. Too fast? I don't know what, if any, rules there are for that. However, I'd think a little more care and clarity should be the focus of instructions directly related to an active runway, but instead, that was the fastest thing she said all recording.
I'm sure, from what little I know of ATC procedure, the pilot is pretty much completely at fault. Other presumably actual pilots have commented that it was understandable enough for their professional environment and the pilot definitely did not read back properly (and later claimed he had). But still, I think this could be a case to review standards for controllers when giving critical instructions. Ie misunderstanding a taxi instruction and clipping a wing at 5mph may cause lots of monetary damage, but injury risk is low--misunderstanding a runway crossing can result in a 200mph impact and hundreds of lives lost...
She talking waaaaay too fast
This is what these stupid JFK controllers be doing. Having a contest in who can talk the fastest.
I had to back it up to even see what she said. I'd have to pull out my "I'm not dumb, I just hear slow. Pretend I can't hear that fast and say it again."
No, no she isn’t. This is JFK and they move metal...a lot of it and controllers speak at the appropriate speed for the commercial crew they deal with. DAL 300 was clueless and my guess is he filed his ASAP and got remedial training while the controller got an atta girl for proactively canceling DAL253s takeoff clearance.
@@CameronMiller I've heard plenty of JFK ATC and the issue is if you're going to talk fast, you need to be able to do so while still annunciating. She has speed, but it all blurs together because she lacks annunciation.
Falcon well I understood every word she said. I also have the ability to set the brake and get clarification if I’m confused.
Thanks for the upload. It's a perfect example of readback clearances. We can all make that mistake.
I didn't hear ATC issuing a cancellation announcement of take-off clearance for DAL253. Wondering if the pilot saw traffic infront of him on RW 22R
Well i mean the atc was like a rap god or something
qhualla izhar I had no issue understanding everything the controller said. Then again I fly for a living and have been to JFK more times than I’d like to think about.
@@HEDGE1011 i live in indonesia bro. You go here then youll have problems on trying to understand our accent
I grew up a few miles from JFK and even I can admit she spoke WAY too fast on that transmission.
@@HEDGE1011 you were also sub consciously reading the convienent subtitles.
the horror in the controller’s voice was omgosh legit
Just a layman here but from what I could make out the pilot of the plane that was taking off aborted his takeoff on his own, as soon as he heard the alarm in the controller's voice. Big props to him for being alert.
Thank you for flying for delta your services are no longer required, we hope you have a great day
I didn't hear the controller revoke takeoff clearance.
Me either
It was another controller on frequency 123.9. What was shown is the exchange on 119.1
Tower giving takeoff clearance and tower giving crossing instructions for same runway are on different frequencies?
@@davidpoulin6961 Normally not
@@noah9130 Very normal at JFK. I do not like this and would prefer that they switched us over to the other frequency prior to crossing the parallel.
Worst thing he wanted to hear was “possible pilot deviation “
Even and a Brit who's English is perfect and 1st Language... Good god that woman speaks fast. I can't even hear her clearly with the subtitles.
It’s already quite hectic by the lightning fast instruction and add the same number for both runway and the gate seemed to cause further chaos.
People don’t tend to understand that when you speak over a radio, it NEVER comes out the other end as clear as you hear yourself speaking. It just doesn’t sound the same, regardless of how fast you’re talking. Now when you’re slinging words at the cyclic rate over radio, you’re just asking for miscommunication. The time you think you save by speaking fast is lost when you have to repeat yourself over and over. Or worse yet, a situation like this arises. Just use clear, concise words at the speed you would talk to somebody face to face. You wouldn’t hold a conversation with another person talking as fast as you can.
VASAviation thanks for sharing this important information.
In my humble opinion, I Think that when ATC gives critical instructions to that speed, mixing it with not critical information such as "what is the gate", it's easier to the pilots, to miss important information. I had to hear it twice to listen the "hold short". This was a pilot's error but it was also a lack of good communication skills from the ATC. She needs to slow down and be sure her instructions are going to be accomplished.
If she doesn't hear the good pilot's readback, she needs to clarify what she said. That is called effective communication
I can not imagine anyone could have understood that.
"I misheard you and read back what I heard" - guy who read back exactly nothing
In today's safe world of aviation this is EXACTLY how accidents happen. Two mistakes. Pilot didn't follow instructions. Controller did not insist on a mandatory read-back.
Can't remember which channel or TV show it was but the narrator stated that 100% of the time it is two mistakes that lead to plane crashes. I thought at the time, that's ridiculous, but I have not seen it happen any other way since.
Insist? lol. When? How? What if... BOOM! Everyone is dead!
A pilot cannot enter an active runway UNTIL clear instructions are received AND read back, giving the ground controller a chance to correct the situation. Controllers can’t even see on ground radar that an aircraft moved a few feet and is now sticking into the runway space. It’s too late by that time. That takes less than 5 seconds. So insist when? How?
It’s the pilot’s responsibility to read back, not the controller’s.
FranktheDachshund Not 100% of the time, but most of the time. Very important in life to understand the difference.
@@afcgeo882 She shouldn't have cleared 253 for takeoff before or without a proper readback from 300.
Keenan Tims SHE didn’t! It was another frequency that did! Also, ATC goes by radar, not verbal promises. She cleared the takeoff because at the moment the runway was cleared and DL300 had its instructions.
Did she learn to speak instructions from watching the 'side effect' warnings on pharmaceutical drug commercials?!
Although he performed a major screwup by not reading back what she said... she did spit out those instructions s fast, it's unsurprising he missed what she said!
This is an example of why 'clear' instructions are necessary!
record in normal talking speed on 33.3rpm, play back at 45 rpm. that's normal speed. not her 78rpm playback
The instructions were clear. Pilot was instructed to hold short of rwy 22 left. The communication breakdown was when GND did not pause for read back. Instead GND immediately after giving the instruction, asked the Delta pilot for his gate number.
Ironically the gate number was 22.
I believe this may have caused the confusion.
In this instance, I believe both controller and pilot were in error.
This is a classic example of why read back is of vital importance.
great depiction 👍
I listened to the instruction like six times and still couldn't understand what she was saying til I looked at the subtitles.
ATC recordings are very muffled, but the sound is quite clear for pilots. He did read back to her. It was his fault, he just forgot his instruction.
@@cooltwittertag I’m assuming you’re a pilot to make such a confident statement, but please correct me if I’m wrong. Having heard atc giving this instruction about 200 times watching RUclips videos I’ve never heard it this slurred, but again to be clear I am not a pilot.
It's like conversation with my husband. Me: "Honey go to grocery store and buy something for dinner. Honey?! What the hell is this? Husband: "I heard you are saying: go to Home Depot and get some tools to your workshop. I asked you are you sure and You said yes"
Wives are not very good communicators. I have a garage full of tools that my wife asked me to purchase, yet she is always pissed there is nothing for dinner. Women. Never happy about anything..
Affirm, proceeding on I-55 and will hold short of Woodcraft pending final bank account verification by FO.
@@ronmaxim8009 OK boomer.
.....Just another example of why I never married.
Hahahahahah, i laughed so hard at this comment, my wife thought i was having seizures...
Listen to her "hold short of 22R at Juliet". She said it so fast no wonder the pilot didn't catch it.
Interesting to compare the delivery speed and aggressiveness of US ATC with, for example LHR.
And that, dear children, is why we don't lapse into sloppy radio procedures but always do our readback properly like we learned in pilot training.
You can literally hear her heart drop damn
Not above her shrieking at the aircraft that isn't on a takeoff roll you can't
@@incandescentwithrage ok let's see how tame you would be when two aircrafts are going to collide with each other. And she wasnt shrieking, she handled the mistake professionally. But we get it, you have a negative view towards women.
Shame the speed of her speech did not drop down though!
@@cooldude2251 What a ridiculous leap of logic to conclude I have a poor view of women. Shame on you.
This particular controller, in this situation, said the wrong thing at an important time.
@@incandescentwithrage I'm not sure how he concluded you have a "negative view towards women", unless he assumed "shrieking" was something against women, which in that case it's *him* being sexist and assuming that only females "shriek".
I don't agree with you though, and I'm not saying you're in the right. Just thought I'd point out that the other guy is also a prick.
sometimes when I listen to these ATC tapes I think I'm listening to an auctioneers competition and I wonder why it is there aren't more accidents.
The worst and most dangerous time to fly is taxi-ing around the airport. Get me in the air ASAP.
It doesn't matter how fast the controller talked or what she said afterwards, you don't cross an active without knowing for sure that you have clearance.
The correct response if the controller talked too fast to understand should have been "say again".
Talking this fast and keeping it short is fairly normal in busy airports.
Logically if you're the person speaking then unless you get clear confirmation it seems on you to assume the message wasn't received. He says he repeated back 'cleared to cross' so ether that's what he heard or he's lying, we'd need the CVR to know. But we know for sure ATC didn't hear anything repeated back about holding.
I'm a UK private pilot and I listen to quite a bit of US ATC. The problem is that many (most?) US ATC controllers speak FAR to quickly. Often as a native English speaker I can't understand what they say so imagine what it's like for non-natural English speaking foreign pilots. It's not clever. The whole point of ATC is to deliver instructions in a clear, concise and SAFE way. Gabbling doesn't do that. It was lucky that a major accident didn't result here. The pilot was mainly guilty but the ATC controller also contributed by (a) speaking unclearly and MUCH too quickly and (b) thinking that she's too important to listen to the pilot's read-back of her instruction.
battz99 Almost all private pilots aren’t used to flying into very busy airports where the rate of a/c moving is so high, the controllers have no choice, but to speak quickly. Part of being an ATP and commercial pilot is being used to that level of operations. It’s understanding the flow and key words. You cannot expect a non-professional to comprehend this.
Ever listen to a police radio? It’s a gibberish, ain’t it? Somehow police officers understand it even though others do not.
It’s a part of the job. Look at aviation safety records in the US. Let that be your guide on what’s safe.
Also take note: the pilot did NOT read back.
Rata 4U That’s a whole different topic. Pilots don’t normally fly just one route, back and forth. That avoids that routine you allude to. Crews normally do 3-day rotations, flying a whole bunch of different routes. That said, even if he flew only this route, every single day, how would it cause a pilot to cross an active runway after being told to hold or to not properly read back a critical instruction?
Did anyone catch ANOTHER mistake? At 0:30 Endeavor says they're coming in on ILS 22 RIGHT, but when the woman controller calls back, she clears them for ILS 22 LEFT and the pilot of Endeavor 5255 repeats it back as ILS 22 LEFT.
Well... good?
Didn't seem that bad, his call was an errored report of his position and not a confirmation of an instruction. This is something you read to act to help atc find you and reduces errors with accidentally giving instructions to the wrong aircraft.
well shit, fire them all! how dare anyone ever make any mistake ever! You are a king sir!
That is the whole point of this discussion - errors can lead to fatal accidents. Sarcasm seems misplaced here.
To me it sounds like the pilot says ILS 22R, but the landing clearance and read back is RWY 22L. I don't per se have a problem with that. The thing that prompted me to look for this comment, is that the text in the video indicates "ILS 22L". I find that a confusing subtitle.
2:09
Everyone in the frequency is probably looking like those statues of the heads going "oooooo"
These captions are incorrect. At 1:20 the pilot says, "I misheard what you said and repeated back the wrong thing." He's accepting responsibility and the captions make it look like he's arguing that he's in the right and the tower is wrong. How on earth could you screw up such a crucial part of the exchange? What is the point of this video if you can't get something like this right?
I just want to wish you both good luck.
We're all counting on you.
@@wildgurgs3614 , yeah, I forgot to add that part.
All’s well that ends well and lessons hopefully Learned.
JFK has NEVER learnt a lesson. They don't take responsibility for anything.
Not really. If a lesson isn't learned, the problem will repeat itself and might occur in the future.
That DAL300 happened to also be going to gate 22 while the runway being discussed was 22R did not help things. Why's the controller asking about gates AFTER giving taxi instructions? Seems like that should be asked first...
I find it very interesting that the ATC's default in this critical emergency was to exclaim "Delta 300" in an effort to chastise the offender, instead of warning and aborting Delta 253's roll out.
Once the error had occurred, all efforts should have been directed at Delta 253 to abort.
Delta 253 was on 124.3
And delta 300 was on 119.1
The controller shouting "Delta 300" had no way of communicating with the rolling Delta 253.
All she could do was expedite Delta 300 off the rwy
Split frequencies made it impossible for Delta300 to hear the takeoff clearance issued to Delta253. Awareness of what other aircraft are doing provides a vital layer of safety. The layer was denied in this case by how JFK does business. A sound safety structure not only minimizes errors but gives everyone the best chance for recovery.
I mean they could look to their right and see that the approaching plane’s landing lights are on which by their procedure means takeoff clearance was given
@@calvinrovinescu6166 In this case, Delta 300 would not have seen illuminated landing lights when they checked the runway before entering. Delta 253 hadn't yet been cleared for takeoff, let alone progressed to the norm of illuminating landing lights before initiating takeoff roll.
But in a more general sense, clearing left and right before entering a runway does not inform whether another aircraft has been cleared for takeoff. It's inappropriate and impractical to "light up" other cockpits, control towers, etc. as one aligns for takeoff just because takeoff clearance has been issued. So the norm is to illuminate landing lights after alignment, typically as a last step before power up. Assuming adequate visibility, illuminated landing lights warn downfield aircraft of takeoff roll.
Theoretically, one could ignore propriety and practicality to impose a regulation requiring landing light illumination as a first response to takeoff clearance. But it would be a consistently reliable indication only if minimum takeoff visibility were substantially raised to ensure recognition by downfield aircraft. Even then, it would still enhance cockpit awareness to have crossing aircraft on the same frequency with landing and departing flights.
I'm also not a big fan of having gate discussions with ATC before crossing active runways.
@@TheJustskipper don’t know DL’s exact landing light procedure myself but at most companies I know of it’s lights on when cleared for takeoff and aircraft is entering or on the active runway and I don’t see why their’s would be different. Doesn’t matter if the aircraft is fully lined up or not. This is because you can be issued a clearance and initiate the takeoff roll before lined up so as to not waste anyone’s time. The only situation where you may see what you describe is if the aircraft was instructed to line up and wait and was already in position. In that case it’s just lights on and takeoff power set.
I know at some point they had a strange one on the DC-9s and MD-80s where they would extend the landing lights and presumably turn them on when crossing any (active?) runway which was a really pointless thing to do. Just as some companies choose to use strobes when on or crossing any runway while others only do so on actives and few may only do it upon receiving a clearance.
@@TheJustskipper is JFK tower the sort of split frequency where you you can only hear the frequency you are on or do both frequencies transmit to each other such as an Arrival/Departure/Terminal setup. Usually when they are operated by one controller in this environment I’d expect to be like that just to signify to the controller what the aircraft is intending to do based on frequency.
"Possible Pilot Deviation" = equals one bad-assed time-out in the Principals office.
In a case like this it means you never get to fly again and all that money on pilot school is wasted.
@@kg4boj most likely no
suspension or warning probably? The pilot almost caused a collision with a plane taking off!
@@Kni0002 someone posted it above but the original recording has him reading it back meaning this specific recording is edited.
@@kg4boj most likely no since both pilots heard the same thing and when they play back what was said, yes it wasn't what pilots thought, but she didn't say read back required and also asked a non necessary question at that moment.
Having to call the tower is like being called to the principals office in high school....you know your in trouble.
Delta 253 coming in clutch with that stop
When I heard the first instruction of the tower I thought I was reading the video at x2 speed. She speaks way too fast!
I paused and double checked as well. Then I f5'd 'cause I thought the player bugged out...
Whoever subs these is a legend for understanding what these people are saying.
Trainfan1055 It’s not hard when you do it all the time.
Trainfan1055, I feel the same way. I have problem understanding people when they're talking on their walkie-talkies/radios (construction workers, cop shows and listening to their radios, etc...) All I hear is static and garbled words. I just shake my head with amazement when the recipients reply back. It's like .. huh? .. I couldn't make out a clear word!... So when posters here says that the ATC was clear to them, despite talking so fast, I believe them.
@@karend1577 Yeah, and then there's the pilots with the thick accents. It amazes me how ATC is able to understand them, cuz all I hear is a bunch of W's and R's and mumbling.
Trainfan1055 Again, when you use two-way radios for a living, you het used to hearing them.
Many of the subs are actually wrong :)
"Delta 300, what would you like us to do?"
"Delta 300, I would like you to take down this number..."
Apart from the incursion, the controller is wrong too. When "critical" instructions are given; "hold short" or "cleared for takeoff", you never ask a second question at same time (in this case gate number).