Can you use an outdoor consumer unit in the rain ???
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- Опубликовано: 27 сен 2024
- Outdoor consumer units and rain, snow, dust, cold and heat. Otherwise known as pollution degree and environmental conditions....
What do you think? Some have suggested its exactly the same as EV chargers, caravan parks and such.
Last I knew we didnt power those off the service fuse? They also have specialised wiring and product standards so far as I am aware.
Open to feedback. This is an exclusive on a soon to be released RUclips video.
I realise the busbar is protected by the rcd in this example but meant the more usual setup with main switch and rcbos. My brain often works faster than my mouth 🤭
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Great video. I do find it insane that you need to go to these lengths to demonstrate what should just be common sense. ❤
Another great video as always Mark thank you
Beautiful work. Very knowledgeable man
Good explanation. Very nice work clean tidy skill ❤❤❤❤ thank you
Agree with most of your points, not sure why something like a breaker heating in cold weather is going to cause condensation though.
That is exactly how condensation forms read this electrical.theiet.org/test/wm-in-progress/102-september-2024/external-consumer-units-for-electric-vehicles-in-a-domestic-environment/
Great assistance from the door there holding the hose. Definitely needs a pay rise 😂
Great video mate 👍
Another solid common sense solution!
Nice one Mark. I seem to recall the BG IP65 CU being touted solely as a garage board when it was introduced, as such not being completely in the elements , as they are advertised as being suitable for today. In a garage they can be effective at dealing with the all year round temperature and humidity variations found in most garages. As such it will never be soaked as would one fixed to the outside wall of a house all year, nor have as much of the dangers you have demonstrated. For me, a moulded plastic IP66 enclosure (with the same fire retardant additives used in plastic accessories) though not as belt and braces as your setup, would be better off for safety (pen-fault) and aesthetically pleasing to customers who don't want a big GRP box on the side of their home.
Yeah plastic helps in one way but then suffers in another with IK impact rating they need. Which is why I think many swapped to metal.
If totally unavoidable for me the only way is inside a secondary cut in meter box or wall mounted cabinet. Again probs best plastic board inside that.
In an unheated garage we just have the temp variation to cover off in our design. We would have expanded our exponential zone into it or utilised an electrode so much of the other problems disappear. Equally they would generally be on a submains circuit with protection beyond the main cut out
@@electrician247 Thanks for the response Mark, your last paragraph covers it all very well. As for the IK rating though, would you say it wouldn't be so difficult for manufacturers to match the IK to that of the EVSE itself? Have you seen the Efixx short on the Allbro outdoor socket at IK10 where they batter it in a quarry?
I couldn't actually find the IK rating of the BG, Fusebox or Lewden EV CUs. I know we automatically think that because they're metal, they're robust but it's cast aluminium, which I think can't take much force. I did see though, Lewden were showing a polycarbonate one on the same page of their pdf ( I think their site was down as that's all I could get when searching ttinterweb.)
Let's see in a year how it all went with your experiment.
@@olly7673 yes IK ratings on smaller products are slightly easier to achieve. With size brings complexity so I'm told lol
A lot of moisture for such a small amount of rainfall. Wouldn’t hold up well with the amount of rain fall we witness in the UK.
I was surprised tbh and if we think consumers won't use these in the rain think again lol.
This is a great video and I like your idea of TT where outdoor is unavoidable. What about feeding the metal board via an RCD main switch in the meter box too, for max protection?
100mA S type wouldnt hurt. Good shout
Can't believe you have spelt this out so many times for energy companies and CPS etc yet still nothing. In 46 years in this game I struggle thinking of more clearly stupid things accepted/promoted.
Nobody listens to electricians anymore. It's all about mates promoting junk for money and getting other mates allowing it in regs. Follow the money.
Have seen a 16th edition consumer in an outside meter box and worked fine with only ip42
Same. An estate near me is full of them. We have re positioned dozens to indoors as they failed with time and consumers got fed up going outdoors to reset breakers. Talk about backwards design 🤪
But then we used to put toilets in gardens so anything is possible.
@@electrician247 thanks I keep that in mind
Have you got a link for the products used here like the thermostats, heater and enclosure?
All from cef.
Pull cord breakers ? 🥳
Wireless ones 🤣
@@electrician247 It's actually not a bad shout, a sealed box with the RCBOs (Screwed shut with a window) and an auto recloser - Then install a waterproof reset button on the outside.
EV Consumer unit:
Outside (if you really have to) - insulated/plastic due to PEN fault risk
PEN fault occurs, Charger trips due PEN fault protection - but PEN fault still exists elsewhere...
Owner goes to check & decides to lift lid of a metal EV CS whilst standing on actual earth...
(Inside house/garage - metal
but outside if needs must - plastic)
((Even where CS inside an enclosure, still ensure both insulated to mitigate rare risk of PEN fault))
Apply liberal common sense in choosing location, avoid highly exposed area where possible
Plastic/metal EV CS debate rolls on, depending how the 18th Gospel is interpreted blah blah blah...
That's my approach, you do you & I do me etc...
I agree outside grp box with humidity control and internal plastic CU if totally unavoidable
Just one thing re the pen fault mate... Thats a steel framed building with metal cladding... Just saying... We as an industry get steamed up about when to be concerned about open pen faults... I suppose maybe you may raise the local ground voltage around the building in that instance so not quite as bad as a car on rubber tyres...
Yeah this is the back of my unit, I cant really carry out these demos on a customers gaff lol. That said most steel framed buildings should have earth pits around the structure as this ones does. LPS and PEN reasoning. Thanks
@@electrician247 🤣
It's weird how the regulation community only acts after a foreseeable accident/fatality.
I have to remind myself that the regulators that brought us to gasketed outdoor switches, vandal-proof protection, mounting equipment out-of-reach, a swath of requirements for caravan hook-ups, protected circuits on construction sites (including the use of protected and isolated transformers +-55v aka 110v), zoning of pools, bathrooms and alike; typically written in blood with the fresh smell of bacon a la ozone.
Yet they sit on the sidelines with regular DIN-mounted circuit protection devices, mounted in the weather, outside the equipotential zone, near a frustrated consumer with their wet, steel electric vehicle close at hand, in their inappropriate footwear, standing in a muddy puddle. Genius.
Still, we got all that recently revised regulation, process and the law regarding the simple matter of pulling the DNO fuse by an electrician who actually has the means of killing the load from inside the dwelling. Top work fellas.
electrical.theiet.org/test/wm-in-progress/102-september-2024/external-consumer-units-for-electric-vehicles-in-a-domestic-environment/
Great video Mark,
I think some of the problem is also house design. I know plenty of houses, even new builds prior to latest building regs requiring EV charge points, where the consumer unit is in a cupboard under the stairs in the middle of house.
So customer either pays more for cabling to be routed through the house (at even more expense if they want the cable chased in) or in trunking.
Or they have an external CU for the EVCP
I think the best solution (given how many houses have the CU in ridiculous positions) is two fold.
1 - Make it law (so it js written into ESQCR and not BS7671) that in a domestic setting any external consumer unit is made from GRP, is IP65 min and the protective devices must have the correct degree of pollution control rating.
The other one is it is made law that on a TNCS Domestic property the DNO MUST fit a PEN fault device for the installation that is upfront of the rest of the installation. That way if a PEN fault does occur then Joe Public is protected.
If they can’t manage/maintain their network properly then they should provide mitigation for it. I accept that even a well maintained network could suffer a PEN fault. But given the risks involved now with the push for EVs and electrification of everything. This wouldn’t be a big ask.
Then again they can’t even fit a £20 EMIS. So highly unlikely they’d ever stump up the cost of a PEN fault device without being forced to.
I totally agree with you (and Jamie) - and see the IET has joined in.
Regulations must be changed to 'MUST NOT'
great video Mark. I hope they will take notice and not allow DB outside. and the other point who is going to mantain the extra devices heater, fan and vent plugs, it,s a bit like is the RCD tested every time as per instrunctions if ever.
Absolutely its far from ideal. But in times it cant be avoided its about as good as I can think of.
Totally agree Mark what I would do right or wrong would be GRP box with plastic up rated DB inside and call that it more than good enough anyone who touches electric,s with wet hands is on a well you know what I mean maybe we should think about bringing back the old public information films like in the 1970s
I think if unavoidable that's the best approach and control the temps and ventilation in the cabinet rather than CU.
I was going to ask about your thoughts on caravan supplies but I see you've mentioned it in your description. I've never been a fan of the splashproof IP44 "ceeform" connectors used for those but they are commonly accepted. On larger caravan sites you have very little up-front other than your standard TT arrangement so I'd consider them to have the same issues as highlighted - Do you trust that the earth rods are frequently tested in these installations? It's even more likely that a consumer will try to operate the RCBOs in a campsite setting during the rain, as they are more likely to trip the limited supply and they would lose both light and often heat depending on the caravan type.
Regarding the din-rail heater and thermostats in your example, I'd consider getting a larger inner consumer unit and mounting it within that enclosure. This has a few benefits:
1) There are no exposed conductors and guards to worry about.
2) There's a little more protection against water ingress, rather than the open holes in the top of the heater.
3) By heating the inner consumer unit, it's the warmest part which means that any condensation is more likely to form on the walls of the outer enclosure.
4) It should be slightly more energy efficient.
Essentially it's just using the outer enclosure as a slightly insulated and weatherproof box, very much like the garage consumer unit example as mentioned in another comment.
It's not a solution to the pollution rating issue, but I think a supply isolator which is interlocked with the lid (and separately weatherproofed) would mitigate some of the issues raised.
Its all about the Macro environment. Controlling the temp around the CU rather than within it is key. Ive done it the way you describe and its less effective in prevention of condensation. So larger outer enclosure with good heating ventilation for the win.
Carvan sites have unique requirements in terms of earthing, one being no PME so the eisk of PEN faults is non existent.
They also have cabinets with switchgear feeding the actual pillars which again will include RCD protection. Plus the caravan themselves have even further siwtchgear within them. Totally different thing and the comparison just isnt there. Never was really.
The best solution is only to take this approach when absolutley unavoidable rather than by default. When it is unavaoidable following a similar approach to ones Ive shared is no bad thing imho.
@@electrician247 Ah fair enough then if you've already tried that, it's good to know your experience.
I do, however, respectfully disagree with caravan sites being totally different. Sure the PEN fault issue is not a problem, but the other issues do not appear to be mitigated. The MCBs / RCBOs on the pillars can be operated in the rain under the same sort of flap mechanism as these outdoor consumer units. They have no environmental mitigations for condensation and other particles. Sure the upstream S-type RCD might offer some protection to the user, but RCDs are intended as the last line of defence - Users shouldn't be allowed to be in a bad situation in the first place.
I've seen a campsite with a faulty upstream S-Type RCD, and I've also seen a campsite with a disconnected earth rod which had gone unnoticed for quite some time before I pointed it out. (On a campsite where the electrician who doing an EIRC told the owner that she'd need to change the boards on the pillars to metal!) I've also seen a caravan with two input sockets, both wired together in parallel. These things can and do happen sadly but for this reason, I think caravan sites are a bit of a wild-west in this regard and shouldn't be excluded from this sort of discussion - I'd argue that due to the unpredictable environment and the increased likelihood of a consumer at a caravan site operating the pillar protection devices, it's more of a risk than for EV chargers.
@@yngndrw. Exactly why I disagree its anything like the same. Caravans and sites have specific special locations within BS7671. Maintenance to that standard is beyond the realms of this issue. Equally the equipment in caravan pillars is generally 60947-2 rather than 60898 and housed in equipment designed and intended for that application. With 3 points of fault and additional protection in the circuit cascade. Unlike an EVSE wired from henley blocks on the suppliers fuse on PME systems with 60898 deivces deployed and no specific coverage in BS7671.
I can understand why people think it, same as marinas, boats and even garden sheds.
But if we dig deep enough the facts dont lie.