Tbh with ace attorneys new popularity I think it’s possible, perhaps in a few years when they want another ace attorney release post aa7 (which was confirmed by leaks and is likely next)
nice list. us ace attorney fans have been starving for content! surprised to see the divination seance and re-visualization so high, but i can respect it. re-visualization is always so hype. idk if ur planning to do more lists like this in the future, but I'd love to collab or help out if so!
I hate to admit, but I ignored this vid the first time it appeared in my recommended. It then showed up a second time. You got the algorithm in your favour!
No matter what, nobody can deny that special mechanics actually help the games feel fresh. I think I’d get bored. Also the thing with perceive is that Apollo can do it with ease without needing to intensely stare. If Phoenix or Apollo tried doing it, I’m pretty sure some questions would be raised “wtf are you doing? Stop”
Hi I just replayed trump and remembered this comment, Phoenix actually saw Olga’s tick and pointed it out to apollo, which implies that yeah, Phoenix can do it, and it wasn’t ever called out like “wtf” (and in court there’s a bench for defendants in the corner in clear view from them so olga would notice if Phoenix was aggressively staring)
@@XenoviasCave first off: I sat here confused for 5 minutes thinking “wtf do they mean by replaying trump?” until I realized you were NOT talking about Donald Trump 😂 Second off, yes Phoenix noticed the tick one time. Especially since, being the first case, it was a very obvious one (from what I can remember. Pretty sure it was her touching the back of her neck)
@@XenoviasCave also, one thing I failed to mention was that Apollo’s bracelet will react when someone has a tick like that. Not that I know how that works, but that’s the whole idea. His bracelet kinda tells him when to start looking and paying attention to tics.
@@Insert_Name_Here908 fair yes apollo can do it easier My point was that you can legit just pay attention and be able to replicate his ability, and sometimes the ability is pointless as you just point a tick out and move onto evidence
@@XenoviasCaveI disagree with the whole “why not just present evidence” thing because the point of perceive is to find out what information is relevant when it isn’t obvious what question to ask. For example, in the final case of Dual Destinies, you have to perceive Fulbright touching his holster when saying “The Earth emblem” in order to get the idea that you should examine the emblem to uncover its secret. Before that, the whole conversation was about the mirror and the low light, so perceiving helped Apollo pivot the argument to what was actually important. Same thing for the last case in Spirit of Justice where, when Dhurke says that he will never get another girlfriend, you have to pinpoint his nervousness when he says “she’s gone” in order to uncover that Amara isn’t actually dead. Perceive is more about telling you what specifically in the statement is important since it’s easy to be thrown off. Granted, not all of the Perceive mini games actually do that. In Kristoph’s perceive, the tick is on the most obvious part of the statement. Same thing with Juniper’s and Trucy’s. So that brings down the mechanic quite a bit that it doesn’t adhere to its premise half the time. But the other half of the time, it does make sense.
You have very different taste in some of these than me. Ive never been a fan of the mood matrix. Maybe it could be good (though even in concept i find it kinda iffy) but a lot of the segments using it are kinda poorly written. Not all of them, theres some that use it well, but its enough to make it difficult to appreciate the mechanic. It's also just not much fun because its always extremely obvious when youre ment to object. I dont dislike it, its far from my biggest issue with DD or SOJ, but i could take it or leave it. Logic is easily one of the best. It does everything the magatama does but better, and is a large part of why the investigations games have such a good flow in terms of how the mystery unravels. Each peice of logic flows into the next and the way it all comes together at the end always feels great. While id probably rank percieve about the same as you, i do appreciate the intent. Apollo Justice is very centered on how broken the law of ace attorney is and how sometimes you need to play a little dirty to get Justice, hence the theme of poker that runs throughout the game, and i think perceive plays into this really well. In practice im less fond of it, but i like the idea. Id also place both the great ace attorney mechanics much higher than you. Lastly your opinion on Herlock is objectively wrong, and unfortunately im going to have to sentence you to death for your transgressions.
I love your list! Seance is one of my favorites too. I am admittedly a big Herlock fan so Dance of Deduction is my #1, I also like Little Thief, the Little Thief section alone is what keeps Case 3 of Investigations 1 from bottom tier to me, that's how cool it is
Herlock works because throughout all of TGAA1 he's basically just a misdirect, it's only in the second game where his Serious side really starts to come out. The way he goes "no more games" or something to that effect during the final dance of deduction shows, to me, that he's just been having fun messing with Ryunosuke this entire time (at least for most of it) but when he gets SERIOUS he doesn't even really need his partner's help necessarily, he could do it alone but dancing with his partner is still more fun
I'm hoping that the multi-witnisess mecanic makes a return in the next game and I'm hoping that you can freely swap from mood matrix to cross-examination and back. I'm picturing a senario where 1 witnisess will make a statement and then another witness get surprised, but tries to hide only for the mood matrix to pick up the fact that they are in shock, which then results in the witness having to explain why they were in shock when the previous witness made that statement. We can even expand this further by having the player not only watch out for how other witnisess are going to react, but also force them keep an eye out for the judge, the prosecution and even their aid(es). In fact, why not introduce moments where the prosecution and/or the judge give testemonies like in the investigation games where they argue why the defendent is guilty in their eyes? What would also be cool is if logic is used to progress cross-examinations. Example 1: pressing a certain statement results in a thought bubble being added, which when combined with another thought bubble results in the cross-exam ending itself. Example 2: when combining 2 thought bubbles, a piece of evidence get's updated, which can then be presented to a statement that contradicts that evidence. Example 3: when pressing a certain statement, you are given the option to ask the witness a question. However when you connect 2 thought bubbles and then repress that statement, a new question appears and - upon asking that question - results you being able to progress through the trial. Also also, if you've played Hotel Dusk: room 215 and/or it's sequel Last Window: the secret of Hotel Cape West, then you'll know that on numerous occasions when talking to people characters will often say something that's highlighted in orange and when that happens a yellow triangle appears that when pressed results in your character yelling hold it before then being presented with 2 questions that you can ask the character. So why not copy that and incorparate it into the cross-examinations? When pressing a certain statement, the witness can end up running their mouth without them or anyone else noticing and by pressing the press button again as the witness is running their mouth you can end up trapping the witness.
Love this video!! And as a Perceive enjoyer… yeah, I definitely understand where you’re coming from. I think it’s a GREAT idea with a lot of tonal and narrative staying power, but was executed in a way that just isn’t fun. :/ And for the Dance of Deduction, I think they have you go through it twice so we can see the entirety of Sholmes’ wild conclusions, since on the second go-around he’s very receptive to Ryuu’s feedback and so he gradually changes his theory. I think having the second deduction be heavily abbreviated would have been helpful. The mechanic is delightful, but it really doesn’t need to be upwards of 20 minutes long, esp not with such low-stakes technical challenge.
I knew realized that there was a sound cue in logic chess that would tell you whether or not to wait. That fact alone made the mechanic a lot more challenging and fun for me. However, knowing that I can see why you found the mechanic lame.
I dislike perceive bc I really hate the whole “nervous tics means your lying” because that whole belief/trope is accidentally ableist. Having adhd and most likely autism I occasionally fidget especially when nervous and I’ve been accused of lying because of those behaviors (which I do to help calm myself, and most people get nervous when their accused of lying especially when people don’t tend to believe you in general) But now that I think about it I really want a story where an investigator uses something like perceive only to get stumped by witness that’s neurodivergent.
Actually hey you’re right I never even thought about that, I also fidget when I’m nervous but I don’t lie Thanks for bringing this up, I’m also autistic and tbh I might have brought this up if I ever thought about it
@@XenoviasCave I don’t blame ace attorney for using this trope but I think it’s a problem with mystery and true crime media in general. (I’ve noticed people doing this in real life while watching recordings of court trails.) I probably wouldn’t have even thought about it either if it wasn’t for my own experience. I do think ace attorney does this a little better then most media (from what i remember) as different characters have different nervous reactions and you have to point out when they get nervous and it’s not just “you’re not making eye contact thus you are lying!!!!”. It’s probably the most respectful use of that trope I’ve seen but I’m still bothered that it’s so prevalent and wide spread.
I once read a fanfic in which the fact that stimming is not necessarily lying was addressed in passing, but I honestly don't think that AA will ever address it directly. It's sad, because the whole "science " behind body language in crimes doesn't have enough evidence and it's mostly pseudoscience
The crux of the issue is that it’s debatable whether the act of lying actually produces a physiological effect at all, much less a consistent one; the best that even all our fancy detection devices can do is determine how calm or agitated someone currently is; Athena’s Mood Matrix does a much better job of showing how that information *should* be used. That said, if someone is consistently showing a tell on a specific part of their story and at no other point, something may be up there. Maybe the difficulty on Apollo’s mini-game can be improved by adding false positive tics that play throughout the *entire* statement. However, there is *one* way of “spotting lies” that *does* seem to work; a liar may betray themselves not through their body, but through how they use language. There have been findings that how you talk and write when telling the truth may be different from how you do those things when lying. It could be cool to see a new mini-game where your character finds a testimony “fishy,” so you have to hunt through it to find the statement that seems to break the internal rules of how that witness normally talks. Someone prone to flowery run-on ramblings may curtly speed past the part where he needed to make something up, a lovely cinnamon roll may drop an uncharacteristic swear in the middle of her self-judging fib, and a narcissist who makes *everything* about “me, myself, and *I*” suddenly detours into a second-person hypothetical to distance himself from his lie. Could be fun spotting those more linguistic tells.
Very fun list. Lots of very valid points. I think if every Great Deductions was like the Partners scene it'd be much better (I love the Partners scene so much!) I think the only one K really disagree with is Logic Chess but I can definitely see your arguments do do hope it's improved upon in later games, probably something similar to Attorny of the Arcane's Argument system.
A lot of the tics are subtle and only happen for a few words of the line. No chance could Phoenix and Athena properly notice just by looking, without being able to see the testimony in slow motion. Phoenix does notice the first tic but not only was it fairly obvious, he also still couldn’t identify which specific words in the testimony were relevant. For your other point, the tics are needed in order to identify why the evidence might be relevant. For example, Olga Orly touches the back of her neck when she says “Wright hit him” specifically. And it’s because saying the word “hit” made her subconsciously remember getting hit on the neck herself, which clued Apollo in on what the lie was. Him presenting the bottle and saying it was Olga who was actually hit wouldn’t make any sense without him noticing that she had that specific tic at that specific line. And this applies to basically all the perceive sections in AJ.
I loved the concept of the Divination Seances in SoJ, but for some reason I absolutely SUCKED at all of them. I think I just had a hard time comparing the text to the visuals 😅
basically, they were very vague, normally in other games during cross examinations, it was very simple like: witness: he was wearing a green scarf phoenix: *presents crime photo* OBJECTION! there IS NO green scarf here it would be made like this, but i can understand capcom wanting to up the levels
"I find Herlock to be *very* annoying" What the hell, how did you make it through GAA? I love his irritating dialogue. An actual complaint about Deductions is that 90% of the time the solution is "Pan the camera and click on the obvious solution". At times there's anomalies in the room that are so blatantly in sight as soon as you press the right stick that it doesn't make me feel smart. It makes everyone else look extremely stupid. Still love them though, the music, the posing, the humour.
I don't know how many people come for the challenge. It's nice to solve the mystery by itself, but we all save scum, so the penalty is null, and we sometimes use use walkthroughs, so we all have a solver in our hands. AA's most compelling element is the story, so the mechanics should be ranked by how fun it is to interact with them. BTW, I believe you forgot reactions from GAA, evidence spinning, and fingertips. I say this because spinnig the vase to look like the Blue Badger from Rise of the Phoenix is one of the most notorious interactions of the series...
Oh yeah, a few more things, I didn’t forget those, I just didn’t think they were big enough for I rank Also reactions came from Layton vs Wright, not dgs
Dance of Deduction is still the greatest on my book, sholmes misleads you by pointing out the most obvious and lets you rethink your conclusions and view things on a different angle
Honestly I have enough problems with Logic that I would put it second last (I'm on board with percieve being last, but that's a different rant). A lot of the time the logic just seemed so unbelievably obvious and simple that I never thought to put them together, and got stuck Like its something like "the victim was shot" and "theres a gun here" I never thought I would have to manually put together "Eureka!!! That must mean thats the murder weapon!!!!" Like yes obviously??? Do I need to "solve" that myself? Feels patronizing almost But maybe thats just the autism speaking
About adding Penalty for skill such as revisualization, mood matrix,... How about adding Hardcore mode when you won't be able to save and if you run out of Confidence Gause, you have to start over from the beginning of Episode? That might fit you more because honestly such Penalty on your skill shouldn't exist.
The magatama never had any penalties to begin with, other than making it take longer if you kept presenting the wrong evidence. If you were so bad that you got down to only one little bit pearls tells you to stop for now. When you go to court, that there aren't any penalties from failing the magatama, and when you get back to the investigations phase, it's completely reset
have a separate comment about the list proper, but i just wanna say, Perceive’s best trait for me is just the swirling background because it *looks* so cool in one of the screens, and that it looks like chalk and sells the “ability” well because theres a representation of it that isnt the main focus (ie say, the locks for Phoenix and the emotions for Athena) but serves a lot visually just to see that its *gone* in the remasters just makes me sad, its lost art in a way
My only complaint about the divination insight was that I literally had to look up the correct answer in 6-3 after trying several times to click the flickering flame but apparently I didn't do it at quite the right time (or maybe the right place, or something - I don't even know). So I was looking for something else when I had it entirely right. If you're going to do that kind of thing you need some pretty generous pointer-boxes. Also, I kinda wish Perceive had a "zoomed-out" mode; I don't like going through the testimony several times focused on different parts of the body until I luck into the "right spot." If they fixed that [and the no-fast-forward], then I feel like the mechanic would be a lot more enjoyable to use.
Probably my favorite Ace Attorney mechanic in the past decade is...not from an Ace Attorney game. Tyrion Cuthbert: Attorney of the Arcane added a "padlock deduction" system, where you have 3-4 rotary slots to put together a sentence. This is used frequently with no penalties associated for guesses, and is meant to be used to help the player "write out" the major revelations of the case, allowing much more room for failure than a typical "3 options prompt". It has a few failings when the player is getting ahead of a deduction, just like evidence presentation, but sometimes gets some banging reactions when the case is written well.
Unfathomably based. The only complain I have with it is... sometimes game requires THE EXACT phrasing, which is annoying. As in "Yeah I meant exactly this, but game wants me to use different words". Ace Attorney also has it, but less so.
If you like the idea of returning to a victim's time of death to piece together what happened, I recommend you give Return of the Obra Dinn a try (or a very careful look, while avoiding spoilers). It's not a visual novel, but it has you investigate a ghost ship and go through everyone's deaths that way to find out who is who and what happened to them.
I only like psyche locks. I wish the mechanic wasnt so tied up in with magatama lore, so any character could do a field cross-examination. "you need this rock in order to use evidence to convince a witness to talk outside of court" its bad. dump the rock. I also do like the divination seance. Its like they finally made video evidence work.
Logic chess is a good idea imagine this : you have some sort of court record but only with logic fact you gattered by your investigation and the talk and then you can present them as evidence when the game show present logic
I do like the list, but as an Investigations enjoyer I simply must object to how low all their mechanics are. I understand the top is a tight race, and I don't honestly know where I'd stick them all personally, but Logic Chess especially makes my brain go brrrr. I just love the idea of talking circles around these peoples. You're in a state where evidence can't get you anywhere, but with sheer force of will you can squeeze everything you need out of someone. It's forgiving, but not nearly as forgiving as you made it out to be; you're allowed to make a couple mistakes, but they'll catch up to you if you're being too sloppy. And I know for one Logic Chess specifically, the speed of the timer becomes a very prevalent factor. (The woman in case 5, you know the one). Honestly my biggest gripe with it is that there's no unique "wrong" dialog. Every time you pick the wrong option it's just "I have you now!" "No." If they just changed that, it'd be the perfect mechanic.
I don’t think I misrepresented it, I was sloppy near the mid point cuz I caught on to how forgiving the gameplay of logic chess is and got bored of it, and I still never had any issues
I kinda agree with your list, minus some personal preferences, like loving Dance of Deduction because I find Herlock very funny and cant get enough of him. However, I noticed you did not include two things. One is arguable but both originate from the crossover - The multiple-witness testimonies, including jumping from witness to witness when pressing - The Grand Grimoire (I played in french, didn't get this one in english but you know the book with spells in it) I would love to know your take on these two, and also where you would fit them on the list.
I didn’t count multiple witnesses since it’s more like an expansion of normal testimony I didn’t count the grimioire because it’s pretty much just another piece of evidence I do not like multiple witnesses. It’s good in concept, but only some instances do it good, like turnabout serenade (Machi and thallassa) or Phoenix Wright asinine attorney (Pearl and ahlbi) In chronicles and vs, a loud obvious audio cue takes out the skill from it, and just makes it feel like a waste of a gameplay feature. It’s not fun when it holds your hand the entire time (cough cough logic chess) Grand grimiore I have no good or bad thoughts on since again, just evidence.
That's an interesting take on the mini-games of the AA. I wouldn't say i agree with the most of it, but you did make some arguments that made me think a little and look at those mechanics from somewhat different perspective. In my personal opinion: (lower end) 12. First off, just technically there's more than 10 special gameplay mechanics that appeared throughout the series, and while i don't exactly understand how did you managed to miss 1 of them, the other one is certainly more forgettable. Aaaaand this "other one" *definitely* should be at the bottom of the list in my personal opinion: the Grand Grimoire from PWvsPL. The most underutilized, underdeveloped and most importantly - boring gameplay "mechanic". Technically, it's not even a new mechanic - it's just a new "page" for different style of "evidence". It could had the greatest potential if it was developed a bit more, especially considering how this game was already made the AA mechanics look more like an elaborate puzzle. We could have gotten a giant book with a few dozens of different spells to confuse us and give them some special categories with elaborate descriptions to make the player actually *navigate* through a giant book of spells to find the ones we need to make our case. But instead, we received a "book" which usually updates with 2 spells per case that we need for that specific case too. And all the while other spells we received earlier already becoming meaningless. And sometimes the spells added not even used in the game! In the end, The Grand Grimoire is the most shallow mechanic, and just a glorified Court Records menu. 11. Logic. I'm sorry, but this was the most clunky gameplay mechanic AA ever had. The basic forms of "connect the dots" sequences are usually by themselves are somewhat damaging to the detective genre by default. Usually - because this types of "connections" usually have each half of an answer in each dot you need to connect. And Logic *is* that said basic form. I know that AA is mostly "contradiction" type of games by their design, thus - making "investigation" parts less of a focus in the series. But while making the Miles Edgeworth spinoff, the investigation became the most prominent feature of the game. And then, by making Logic, devs ruined half of the process for the investigations of the game. At least, that half that involves Logic. Firstly - because half of the time it's not us who having an epiphany, but the game who making the Logic bad or obvious. And secondly... because most parts of the Logic sequences are either redundant(We can't prove that Alba don't want us to investigate Manny's murder bc they are connected, until we prove that through connecting the two stupid dots in AAI-5?), stupidly easy and almost patronizing(like the pistol being the murder weapon in AAI-1 or balloon popping because of a cactus in AAI-4), becoming unnecessary roadblocks(We can't investigate the display case until we connect the dots about piggy bank having a hat in AAI-2? Seriously?!) or are awfully constructed(the whole stupid sequence about whereabouts of the cassette tape with the most idiotic arguments of "i got it! Incorporeal things can move from window to window!" in AAI-4). Granted, it's mostly the first investigation game's problem. Second one handled it better(at least, i don't remember being butthurt\hysterical by it aside from the mole joke in AAI2-1), but still that mechanic just not very *fun* to play. It could be improved, i think. I think only the final logic in AAI-2 was actually *GOOD* example of logic, where just a little thing could give Edgeworth a new leads and make a turnabout of the case. 10. Little thief. Firstly, i totally agree that this mechanic is underutilized. But sadly, this is the main reason why i actually dislike it. Because it underutilized, it had very little time to actually find flaws within itself that could be ironed out later. In the AAI1 it was just the investigation sequence with different colour scheme. And only by AAI2 it was made into something interesting with implemented time feature. But in the end it's still just an investigation. 9. Percieve. Despite the fact i'm AA:AJ apologist and one of the fans of Percieve mechanic, i would say that it was botched up badly as the time went by. If it weren't for the DD and SoJ influence, it would probably be a bit higher. Anyway, i always liked the idea of tells and nervous ticks. It's somewhat unique, and is one of those few less otherworldly(Magatama and Seanse) and less technically advanced(Little Thief and Mood Matrix) mechanics, which make it quite realistic for the AA games. I would argue that either Phoenix nor Athena couldn't do this mechanic because of the way it works. We know that Phoenix is good, but Trucy even better at spotting those tells. Problem arises within the game lore: Phoenix found out about case 1 tell, and Trucy found one in the case 2 of AJ. But after that it even Trucy couldn't find tells that small. Almost unnoticeable fiddling of the ring and a scarf? Eye twitching behind reflective sunglasses? The exact moment when the person started to sweat? I don't think it's enough for Phoenix to notice them, and Thena is definitely not exactly "perceptive" kind of person, despite her ability. XD Anyway, i digress. I think that this mechanic would be somewhat easy to fix: just make the double presenting a thing or on the contrary - make a double\triple perceiving a thing! Latter, i think, would work even better. You pressing them on a little nervous tick for them become more aggravated and nervous, which would make their tell even more obvious when they give you an excuse! And you will point out their lie until all the fluff is gone and only THEN you can present evidence to that clean statement to actually break their testimony. 8. That's the second mechanic i think you forgot to mention: multiple witnesses from PWvsPL and TGAA! Its really fresh and unique way of making a cross examination, that certainly makes it more interesting. I would, however, say that it has a few flaws on it's own. Usually - that it makes no noticeable difference to the players that always pressing statements anyway. Moreover, it was very easy in TGAA games after a bit more confusing, but enjoyably harder PWvsPL crossover game. (rest in the replies)
(middle end) 7. Closing Arguments. Nothing can be said here, you mostly said what i think about this mini-game. A bit too much like the cross examination. Also - shout-out to the Shu Takumi for re-using the base mechanic of statement contradiction from PWvsPL. A bit underutilized, tho. 6. Revisualization. It was always somewhat a middle ground for me personally. I find this mechanic to be... a bit weaker than it should be. While sometimes those reveals *ARE* interesting and a bit unexpected, but due to the nature of this mini-game, it's solely relies on the shock value and "unexpectance" of that reveal. If it's boring or was predicted half an hour ago - this mini-game looses not only it's momentum, but the whole point as well. Which, in term, could destroy the whole narrative moments of the game. Which means that this type of reveals should be actually well thought out. Also - it's a bit to simple for my taste. I would agree that the timer here would be a nice touch that would STILL be running even during internal monologues. And maybe a bit more serious take on the wrong answers(still, the "she made mistake in -> her life choices" will never stop getting a chuckle out of me) plus the amount of them as well too. 5. Somewhat of a hot take, but i'm not a huge fan of Magatama. It's one of the best, but still one of the most flat mechanics of the AA series. It never changed a bit starting from 2002. In fact, it became only worse with time. They lost the cool "chain wrap up" feeling from the DS after making a re-make and after AA:AJ! :( Anyway, while i do love the interrogation mini-game during the somewhat boring investigations from the main AA games, i would say that it's not always perfect. The lack of innovations aside - some of the Magatama sequences are actually kinda... pointless? Don't get me wrong, sometimes those are funny(like the Oldbag one in JFA or Gumshue in T&T), but there was a few that were a bit redundant and didn't made much sense overall. I like Magatama. It's just... How do i put it?.. A bit uninspiring at this point, especially considering what did they do to it in the last games. 4. Dance of Deduction. Same here, mostly. Just without the Sholms remark. XD Also, while i agree that hearing the deduction twice is strange, i would argue that it's necessary for the "Sholms deduction change!" loop to happen. After all, usually Sholms changing his train of thoughts after realizing he was mistaken in the first half of it. Which just wouldn't be possible with only one deduction scene. I generally like this energetic type of investigation. Too sad it was just a little bit *too* wacky in the second TGAA game. (rest a bit lower)
(top 3) 3. Divination Séance. I'm with you for the most part about this mini-game. However i would say it's a bit lacking in the dynamic department. It's just... so... *SLOW!* I can't stand it sometimes. It's cool, it's atmospheric, it's intricate and actually quite intriguing, but until you figure one part of the séance you would stuck in the repetitive loop of usually slow animations. It's also have the same problem Revisualization have about reveals that could be uncovered beforehand or be boring. Only partially, but still. Also, considering how technically hard the séance is, i would consider that the penalty for the mistake is a bit *too high* - the 1\5th of the health bar. There's way to many possible combinations with a few rounds too. Sometimes - strict timing to boot. And there was an instance where you had to point out something OTHER that you found first to make the story progress the way it wants you to. It should have remained only an 1\10th of penalty. There's way too many little nitpicks for me to fully enjoy this mechanic wholeheartedly and to the fullest. 2. It was probably one of the hardest picks ever: out of the two remaining mechanics left, i would say that i love them both equally. Especially because one of them makes the trial segments more interesting, while the other one makes the investigation segments more interesting. But if we'll use some logic to it... I would say, that the second place goes to the Logic Chess. For me - they are the best investigation type mini-game in the series. And rightfully so - it's fun, endearing, it looks cool, it have gorgeous music... There's way to little things to be "bettered", actually. Just make the answers a bit more serious, and timing - more strict. Maybe even make the penalty bigger(it's 1\10th if the time runs out right now, it's should be 1\5th), bc technically you pestering the witness or letting him get away! 1. And yeah, my personal favorite is the Mood Matrix. Out of all "troubles" i think it's the easiest to fix. Changing the character speaking is not a big of a deal. I think difficulty was more or less good(maybe should be just a little bit harder). But i think it shouldn't have the HP penalty. After all, how would it be possible if the Judge allowed us to make a session and is probably don't know anything about psychology?.. So it shouldn't have HP penalty... it should have the time limit one. Yeah, i'd suggest giving Mood Matrix the time limit. Not very short one, but with huge penalties if you make a mistake. After all, this is a therapy session *in the middle of a trial* . I would think that sooner or later Judge would be sick of hearing our mistakes, ending the session and thus - giving us a penalty for "stalling for time". That would made perfect sense too. I think that this would really spice up the gameplay of the Mood Matrix for the better. And would actually make sense narratively: instead of panicking and using emotions to work with emotions, you should use cold head and work with emotions logically. Anyway, here's my personal opinion on the mechanics of the AA series. Thanx for that video, it's well-put!
Logic Chess could’ve been way better, but I think they hit the mark multiple times. Against Lotta Hart the time was made an actual obstacle. I think Larry’s logic chess was hilarious, practically the teacher forcing you to answer B 5 times in a row. Blaise’s, Courtney’s and Sebastian’s Logic Chess were also executed very well imo. It deserved to be higher. Also Logic should’ve been a lot higher… Plus I think that Logic Chess not being punishing isn’t a real problem, because getting a penalty in this game just means you have to start over from a save point, which I don’t like for AA games.
Personally I like the feeling of tension you get if you don’t save scum and have to last the chapter on one health bar, but I can understand not liking that
@@XenoviasCave You misunderstand me. Of course punishments should suck, but I mean that the punishment you get is just bad. It just makes you replay the game from your last save, and wastes your time because you already know all the answers up until where you lost. The funny thing is, JFA did this the right way in the last case, by showing us what would happen if Engarde got acquitted, just like Chrono Trigger. There are a lot of games that do punishment for losing a lot better than the AA franchise and as it is, it’s kinda nothing except for a waste of my time. This is also really my only critique that applies to this whole franchise, I’m mostly just disappointed that these great games have such a badly developed penalty system. It’s also just wasted potential, because when Godot raises the penalty to the whole bar for example, that’s a really good moment! Too bad the punishment just doesn’t work…
@@crescentmoon5686 I feel I should mention something really important This is true for the older games, but newer entries don’t actually send you back to the beginning, they send you to the beginning of the last testimony or whatever you were doing, just a portion of the way back I’ll agree maybe the punishment is too much in older games but not newer ones
I will admit that Dance of Deduction is very slow because of going through it twice, but it wouldn't make sense to have those completely silly out there conclusions unless it's structured that way (which tbf does wrap around to your other point, if you don't like Herlock, you're not going to enjoy that part). Also the slowness is paid off with the final one where you do essentially fix it as you go along thereby communicating the strength of Sholmes and Mikotoba's partnership through mechanics, which is one of my favorite moments from the game. To put it another way, I don't really disagree, but I think fixing it so as to be a better experience for most of the instances where it shows up would be a net negative. That said, while I'd probably put the jury at the top (mainly because I find the jurors themselves to be very fun), I do really like divination seances, definitely a close second for me.
I like the great deduction at first I was like man Sholmes is kinda stupid is this like incompetent detective tropes or something? then story progress and it's clear up give me satisfying results Mood Matrix also my favorite simply because it's tied to Athena I do agree that it could use some penalty but I see it can be used for investigations segment lastly I just want to see GAA mechanic to go into AA7
I wouldn't rank jury and dance above thief. What they do is first complicate simple problems and then draw simple conclusions, most of the time they create problems rather than solve them.
perceive isn't about the habits of person it's about the one habit appears when lying cuz everyone have tons of habits apollo can feel the muscles tensing and his braclets reacts thats why and its lot better then magatama cuz you use some non spiritual cheat code lie detector but your characters actual skill it makes you feel like a genious
1:25 Well, not really, and it is explained pretty poorly in Turnabout Succession. You see, Athena has very good hearing, and Apollo has very good eyesight. It's kinda something like eagle vision. I don't think you notice hand trembling slightly from 5-10 meters away, even if you focus very well.
Ngl, this video is very good and I can agree with pretty much all of it. Invesigations games are pretty terrible with their mechanics. DGS ones are definetly a bit superfluous and narratively they are pretty awful (like Closing Statements are so obviously overpowered that it makes no sense for it to be a forgotten mechanic). And yeah, getting through Herlock's repetition is definetly a lot more boring than it needs to be. Revizualization is very fun from a gameplay standpoint to have those "Aha!" moments on screen instead of just everything being in the background and che character coming to that conlusion without much fanfare in certain cases. And Divination Seance is easily the most creative one
This is a pretty great list and I can't say I disagree with it. But about Apollo's ability; it's an irl thing, but it is a rare thing to be born with. You can learn to do it, but not to the extent that Apollo and Trucy can in the game.
Anyway disagreeing and complaining time I never got the divination nonsense I found the minigames confusing and unintuitive, and I didnt really like the princess lol Mood matrix I also wasn't a huge fan of. I over think emotions and get really confused in that one. Unless it was unbelievably obvious then I managed to explain it away in my head because emotions are messy and people are confusing. I also struggled to differentiate surprise and fear. Plus the sound effects were REALLY annoying Perhaps this is just another autism moment 😔 I love the dance of deduction because sholmes is my favourite character in the series. I'm okay with going through it twice because I love seeing his ludicrous and blatantly wrong deduction, and then having ryunosuke go "..ok lets try this again" and correcting him on the way The dramatic lookback at the end of every case was one I did enjoy more than expected, but I wouldn't put AS high It felt like it soured each case the tiniest bit knowing for a fact that there was gonna be some ludicrous case spinning twist at the end that a glorified cutscene would make me figure out Although typing that out made me realise that thats Just ace attorney so hm. Still conflicted Percieve is still baffling to me. Not only does the gameplay suck, but naritavely it makes no sense I do not like having to scour the screen for one tiny animation change. It feels like the only way to do that well is to already know the solution, and if you do, what's the point Also, apollo really just goes "youre lying" "No I'm not" *looks at them really hard* "YOURE LYING!!!!!" "AAARGGGGG YOURE RIGHT!!!!" Its truly Source: trust me bro I adore ace attorney though do not get me wrong, I just love talking about it so much that I couldnt help myself
@Athenalikespizza My memory of Spirit of Justice is the fuzziest of all the games so apologies that I'm being pretty vague I just remember having no idea what was happening, what the game wanted from me, and what would even count as contradictory in this situation Another instance of me overthinking and explaining away contradictions maybe
All of the Investigations gimmicks being almost dead last is sad but like, I can't help but agree. As much as I liked the Investigations series those features were annoying, especially logic chess. I had a guide at my side in all honesty, just to get through them ASAP
Wow i HATE HATE the Divination Seances. Really really vage, really really great room to F'ed up, really really not fun to play for me. But i get your point why u like it i guess.
Join da discord server
discord.gg/aZNwgx9bjt
“I hope they make investigations 3” they gotta translate 2 first
Tbh with ace attorneys new popularity I think it’s possible, perhaps in a few years when they want another ace attorney release post aa7 (which was confirmed by leaks and is likely next)
AAI2 is probably the best game in the series, so they better translate it
@@crescentmoon5686wait i think fans already do that xD
Well guess what?
@@xxn00bslayerxx91 dang I now have to live with Eddie Fender.
nice list. us ace attorney fans have been starving for content! surprised to see the divination seance and re-visualization so high, but i can respect it. re-visualization is always so hype. idk if ur planning to do more lists like this in the future, but I'd love to collab or help out if so!
I am planning to do more aa videos, one’s coming out in a few days
@@XenoviasCave sick!
Woah people actually watched this what da heck
I hate to admit, but I ignored this vid the first time it appeared in my recommended. It then showed up a second time. You got the algorithm in your favour!
No matter what, nobody can deny that special mechanics actually help the games feel fresh. I think I’d get bored.
Also the thing with perceive is that Apollo can do it with ease without needing to intensely stare. If Phoenix or Apollo tried doing it, I’m pretty sure some questions would be raised “wtf are you doing? Stop”
Hi I just replayed trump and remembered this comment, Phoenix actually saw Olga’s tick and pointed it out to apollo, which implies that yeah, Phoenix can do it, and it wasn’t ever called out like “wtf” (and in court there’s a bench for defendants in the corner in clear view from them so olga would notice if Phoenix was aggressively staring)
@@XenoviasCave first off: I sat here confused for 5 minutes thinking “wtf do they mean by replaying trump?” until I realized you were NOT talking about Donald Trump 😂
Second off, yes Phoenix noticed the tick one time. Especially since, being the first case, it was a very obvious one (from what I can remember. Pretty sure it was her touching the back of her neck)
@@XenoviasCave also, one thing I failed to mention was that Apollo’s bracelet will react when someone has a tick like that. Not that I know how that works, but that’s the whole idea. His bracelet kinda tells him when to start looking and paying attention to tics.
@@Insert_Name_Here908 fair yes apollo can do it easier
My point was that you can legit just pay attention and be able to replicate his ability, and sometimes the ability is pointless as you just point a tick out and move onto evidence
@@XenoviasCaveI disagree with the whole “why not just present evidence” thing because the point of perceive is to find out what information is relevant when it isn’t obvious what question to ask.
For example, in the final case of Dual Destinies, you have to perceive Fulbright touching his holster when saying “The Earth emblem” in order to get the idea that you should examine the emblem to uncover its secret. Before that, the whole conversation was about the mirror and the low light, so perceiving helped Apollo pivot the argument to what was actually important. Same thing for the last case in Spirit of Justice where, when Dhurke says that he will never get another girlfriend, you have to pinpoint his nervousness when he says “she’s gone” in order to uncover that Amara isn’t actually dead. Perceive is more about telling you what specifically in the statement is important since it’s easy to be thrown off.
Granted, not all of the Perceive mini games actually do that. In Kristoph’s perceive, the tick is on the most obvious part of the statement. Same thing with Juniper’s and Trucy’s. So that brings down the mechanic quite a bit that it doesn’t adhere to its premise half the time. But the other half of the time, it does make sense.
You have very different taste in some of these than me.
Ive never been a fan of the mood matrix. Maybe it could be good (though even in concept i find it kinda iffy) but a lot of the segments using it are kinda poorly written. Not all of them, theres some that use it well, but its enough to make it difficult to appreciate the mechanic. It's also just not much fun because its always extremely obvious when youre ment to object. I dont dislike it, its far from my biggest issue with DD or SOJ, but i could take it or leave it.
Logic is easily one of the best. It does everything the magatama does but better, and is a large part of why the investigations games have such a good flow in terms of how the mystery unravels. Each peice of logic flows into the next and the way it all comes together at the end always feels great.
While id probably rank percieve about the same as you, i do appreciate the intent. Apollo Justice is very centered on how broken the law of ace attorney is and how sometimes you need to play a little dirty to get Justice, hence the theme of poker that runs throughout the game, and i think perceive plays into this really well. In practice im less fond of it, but i like the idea.
Id also place both the great ace attorney mechanics much higher than you.
Lastly your opinion on Herlock is objectively wrong, and unfortunately im going to have to sentence you to death for your transgressions.
Herlock more like herstupid
@@XenoviasCave the execution squad will be at your house in the morning =)
I love your list! Seance is one of my favorites too. I am admittedly a big Herlock fan so Dance of Deduction is my #1, I also like Little Thief, the Little Thief section alone is what keeps Case 3 of Investigations 1 from bottom tier to me, that's how cool it is
Herlock works because throughout all of TGAA1 he's basically just a misdirect, it's only in the second game where his Serious side really starts to come out. The way he goes "no more games" or something to that effect during the final dance of deduction shows, to me, that he's just been having fun messing with Ryunosuke this entire time (at least for most of it) but when he gets SERIOUS he doesn't even really need his partner's help necessarily, he could do it alone but dancing with his partner is still more fun
I'm hoping that the multi-witnisess mecanic makes a return in the next game and I'm hoping that you can freely swap from mood matrix to cross-examination and back. I'm picturing a senario where 1 witnisess will make a statement and then another witness get surprised, but tries to hide only for the mood matrix to pick up the fact that they are in shock, which then results in the witness having to explain why they were in shock when the previous witness made that statement. We can even expand this further by having the player not only watch out for how other witnisess are going to react, but also force them keep an eye out for the judge, the prosecution and even their aid(es). In fact, why not introduce moments where the prosecution and/or the judge give testemonies like in the investigation games where they argue why the defendent is guilty in their eyes?
What would also be cool is if logic is used to progress cross-examinations. Example 1: pressing a certain statement results in a thought bubble being added, which when combined with another thought bubble results in the cross-exam ending itself. Example 2: when combining 2 thought bubbles, a piece of evidence get's updated, which can then be presented to a statement that contradicts that evidence. Example 3: when pressing a certain statement, you are given the option to ask the witness a question. However when you connect 2 thought bubbles and then repress that statement, a new question appears and - upon asking that question - results you being able to progress through the trial.
Also also, if you've played Hotel Dusk: room 215 and/or it's sequel Last Window: the secret of Hotel Cape West, then you'll know that on numerous occasions when talking to people characters will often say something that's highlighted in orange and when that happens a yellow triangle appears that when pressed results in your character yelling hold it before then being presented with 2 questions that you can ask the character. So why not copy that and incorparate it into the cross-examinations? When pressing a certain statement, the witness can end up running their mouth without them or anyone else noticing and by pressing the press button again as the witness is running their mouth you can end up trapping the witness.
Love this video!! And as a Perceive enjoyer… yeah, I definitely understand where you’re coming from. I think it’s a GREAT idea with a lot of tonal and narrative staying power, but was executed in a way that just isn’t fun. :/
And for the Dance of Deduction, I think they have you go through it twice so we can see the entirety of Sholmes’ wild conclusions, since on the second go-around he’s very receptive to Ryuu’s feedback and so he gradually changes his theory. I think having the second deduction be heavily abbreviated would have been helpful. The mechanic is delightful, but it really doesn’t need to be upwards of 20 minutes long, esp not with such low-stakes technical challenge.
I knew realized that there was a sound cue in logic chess that would tell you whether or not to wait. That fact alone made the mechanic a lot more challenging and fun for me. However, knowing that I can see why you found the mechanic lame.
I dislike perceive bc I really hate the whole “nervous tics means your lying” because that whole belief/trope is accidentally ableist. Having adhd and most likely autism I occasionally fidget especially when nervous and I’ve been accused of lying because of those behaviors (which I do to help calm myself, and most people get nervous when their accused of lying especially when people don’t tend to believe you in general) But now that I think about it I really want a story where an investigator uses something like perceive only to get stumped by witness that’s neurodivergent.
Actually hey you’re right I never even thought about that, I also fidget when I’m nervous but I don’t lie
Thanks for bringing this up, I’m also autistic and tbh I might have brought this up if I ever thought about it
@@XenoviasCave I don’t blame ace attorney for using this trope but I think it’s a problem with mystery and true crime media in general. (I’ve noticed people doing this in real life while watching recordings of court trails.) I probably wouldn’t have even thought about it either if it wasn’t for my own experience. I do think ace attorney does this a little better then most media (from what i remember) as different characters have different nervous reactions and you have to point out when they get nervous and it’s not just “you’re not making eye contact thus you are lying!!!!”. It’s probably the most respectful use of that trope I’ve seen but I’m still bothered that it’s so prevalent and wide spread.
I once read a fanfic in which the fact that stimming is not necessarily lying was addressed in passing, but I honestly don't think that AA will ever address it directly. It's sad, because the whole "science " behind body language in crimes doesn't have enough evidence and it's mostly pseudoscience
@@primaryhoodies6386 I think I’ll make a video on this it seems like a really interesting topic
The crux of the issue is that it’s debatable whether the act of lying actually produces a physiological effect at all, much less a consistent one; the best that even all our fancy detection devices can do is determine how calm or agitated someone currently is; Athena’s Mood Matrix does a much better job of showing how that information *should* be used.
That said, if someone is consistently showing a tell on a specific part of their story and at no other point, something may be up there. Maybe the difficulty on Apollo’s mini-game can be improved by adding false positive tics that play throughout the *entire* statement.
However, there is *one* way of “spotting lies” that *does* seem to work; a liar may betray themselves not through their body, but through how they use language. There have been findings that how you talk and write when telling the truth may be different from how you do those things when lying. It could be cool to see a new mini-game where your character finds a testimony “fishy,” so you have to hunt through it to find the statement that seems to break the internal rules of how that witness normally talks. Someone prone to flowery run-on ramblings may curtly speed past the part where he needed to make something up, a lovely cinnamon roll may drop an uncharacteristic swear in the middle of her self-judging fib, and a narcissist who makes *everything* about “me, myself, and *I*” suddenly detours into a second-person hypothetical to distance himself from his lie. Could be fun spotting those more linguistic tells.
Very fun list. Lots of very valid points. I think if every Great Deductions was like the Partners scene it'd be much better (I love the Partners scene so much!)
I think the only one K really disagree with is Logic Chess but I can definitely see your arguments do do hope it's improved upon in later games, probably something similar to Attorny of the Arcane's Argument system.
I have played that, and yeah I would say arcane did it better
A lot of the tics are subtle and only happen for a few words of the line. No chance could Phoenix and Athena properly notice just by looking, without being able to see the testimony in slow motion. Phoenix does notice the first tic but not only was it fairly obvious, he also still couldn’t identify which specific words in the testimony were relevant.
For your other point, the tics are needed in order to identify why the evidence might be relevant. For example, Olga Orly touches the back of her neck when she says “Wright hit him” specifically. And it’s because saying the word “hit” made her subconsciously remember getting hit on the neck herself, which clued Apollo in on what the lie was. Him presenting the bottle and saying it was Olga who was actually hit wouldn’t make any sense without him noticing that she had that specific tic at that specific line. And this applies to basically all the perceive sections in AJ.
Phoenix,Athena,Apollo have:'Special magics'
Miles has the thing they don't have:✨LOGIC✨
The special magics tend to be more fun for me so, that’s chill
I loved the concept of the Divination Seances in SoJ, but for some reason I absolutely SUCKED at all of them. I think I just had a hard time comparing the text to the visuals 😅
basically, they were very vague, normally in other games during cross examinations, it was very simple like:
witness: he was wearing a green scarf
phoenix: *presents crime photo* OBJECTION! there IS NO green scarf here
it would be made like this, but i can understand capcom wanting to up the levels
"I find Herlock to be *very* annoying"
What the hell, how did you make it through GAA? I love his irritating dialogue.
An actual complaint about Deductions is that 90% of the time the solution is "Pan the camera and click on the obvious solution".
At times there's anomalies in the room that are so blatantly in sight as soon as you press the right stick that it doesn't make me feel smart. It makes everyone else look extremely stupid.
Still love them though, the music, the posing, the humour.
It was definitely a struggle, I took multiple breaks cuz of him I’m ngl lol
I don't know how many people come for the challenge. It's nice to solve the mystery by itself, but we all save scum, so the penalty is null, and we sometimes use use walkthroughs, so we all have a solver in our hands. AA's most compelling element is the story, so the mechanics should be ranked by how fun it is to interact with them.
BTW, I believe you forgot reactions from GAA, evidence spinning, and fingertips. I say this because spinnig the vase to look like the Blue Badger from Rise of the Phoenix is one of the most notorious interactions of the series...
I don’t save scum actually, I go through trials with the 5 strikes, so difficulty is a factor for me
Oh yeah, a few more things, I didn’t forget those, I just didn’t think they were big enough for I rank
Also reactions came from Layton vs Wright, not dgs
Dance of Deduction is still the greatest on my book, sholmes misleads you by pointing out the most obvious and lets you rethink your conclusions and view things on a different angle
Bruh I’m legit on Rite of the Turnabout and got the end spoiled cause of this vid 😫
Good video tho
IM SO SORRY 😭
SAME
I haven't played Spirit of Justice yet, but my sister has and she greatly disagrees with your number 1 choice.
Trust me bro your sisters unbased
Waiting for the remaster too, huh?
Honestly I have enough problems with Logic that I would put it second last (I'm on board with percieve being last, but that's a different rant).
A lot of the time the logic just seemed so unbelievably obvious and simple that I never thought to put them together, and got stuck
Like its something like "the victim was shot" and "theres a gun here"
I never thought I would have to manually put together "Eureka!!! That must mean thats the murder weapon!!!!" Like yes obviously??? Do I need to "solve" that myself? Feels patronizing almost
But maybe thats just the autism speaking
Imo the dumbest logic moment was that “red mole” bs from aai2
About adding Penalty for skill such as revisualization, mood matrix,... How about adding Hardcore mode when you won't be able to save and if you run out of Confidence Gause, you have to start over from the beginning of Episode?
That might fit you more because honestly such Penalty on your skill shouldn't exist.
The magatama never had any penalties to begin with, other than making it take longer if you kept presenting the wrong evidence. If you were so bad that you got down to only one little bit pearls tells you to stop for now. When you go to court, that there aren't any penalties from failing the magatama, and when you get back to the investigations phase, it's completely reset
have a separate comment about the list proper, but i just wanna say, Perceive’s best trait for me is just the swirling background because it *looks* so cool in one of the screens, and that it looks like chalk and sells the “ability” well because theres a representation of it that isnt the main focus (ie say, the locks for Phoenix and the emotions for Athena) but serves a lot visually
just to see that its *gone* in the remasters just makes me sad, its lost art in a way
My only complaint about the divination insight was that I literally had to look up the correct answer in 6-3 after trying several times to click the flickering flame but apparently I didn't do it at quite the right time (or maybe the right place, or something - I don't even know). So I was looking for something else when I had it entirely right. If you're going to do that kind of thing you need some pretty generous pointer-boxes.
Also, I kinda wish Perceive had a "zoomed-out" mode; I don't like going through the testimony several times focused on different parts of the body until I luck into the "right spot." If they fixed that [and the no-fast-forward], then I feel like the mechanic would be a lot more enjoyable to use.
Probably my favorite Ace Attorney mechanic in the past decade is...not from an Ace Attorney game. Tyrion Cuthbert: Attorney of the Arcane added a "padlock deduction" system, where you have 3-4 rotary slots to put together a sentence. This is used frequently with no penalties associated for guesses, and is meant to be used to help the player "write out" the major revelations of the case, allowing much more room for failure than a typical "3 options prompt". It has a few failings when the player is getting ahead of a deduction, just like evidence presentation, but sometimes gets some banging reactions when the case is written well.
Unfathomably based. The only complain I have with it is... sometimes game requires THE EXACT phrasing, which is annoying. As in "Yeah I meant exactly this, but game wants me to use different words". Ace Attorney also has it, but less so.
If you like the idea of returning to a victim's time of death to piece together what happened, I recommend you give Return of the Obra Dinn a try (or a very careful look, while avoiding spoilers). It's not a visual novel, but it has you investigate a ghost ship and go through everyone's deaths that way to find out who is who and what happened to them.
little thief and divination seance
is underused imo too, very cool.
I only like psyche locks. I wish the mechanic wasnt so tied up in with magatama lore, so any character could do a field cross-examination. "you need this rock in order to use evidence to convince a witness to talk outside of court" its bad. dump the rock.
I also do like the divination seance. Its like they finally made video evidence work.
video evidence is definitely not the best outside of aa6 yeah
Logic chess is a good idea imagine this : you have some sort of court record but only with logic fact you gattered by your investigation and the talk and then you can present them as evidence when the game show present logic
I do like the list, but as an Investigations enjoyer I simply must object to how low all their mechanics are. I understand the top is a tight race, and I don't honestly know where I'd stick them all personally, but Logic Chess especially makes my brain go brrrr.
I just love the idea of talking circles around these peoples. You're in a state where evidence can't get you anywhere, but with sheer force of will you can squeeze everything you need out of someone.
It's forgiving, but not nearly as forgiving as you made it out to be; you're allowed to make a couple mistakes, but they'll catch up to you if you're being too sloppy. And I know for one Logic Chess specifically, the speed of the timer becomes a very prevalent factor. (The woman in case 5, you know the one).
Honestly my biggest gripe with it is that there's no unique "wrong" dialog. Every time you pick the wrong option it's just "I have you now!" "No." If they just changed that, it'd be the perfect mechanic.
I don’t think I misrepresented it, I was sloppy near the mid point cuz I caught on to how forgiving the gameplay of logic chess is and got bored of it, and I still never had any issues
I kinda agree with your list, minus some personal preferences, like loving Dance of Deduction because I find Herlock very funny and cant get enough of him. However, I noticed you did not include two things. One is arguable but both originate from the crossover
- The multiple-witness testimonies, including jumping from witness to witness when pressing
- The Grand Grimoire (I played in french, didn't get this one in english but you know the book with spells in it)
I would love to know your take on these two, and also where you would fit them on the list.
I didn’t count multiple witnesses since it’s more like an expansion of normal testimony
I didn’t count the grimioire because it’s pretty much just another piece of evidence
I do not like multiple witnesses. It’s good in concept, but only some instances do it good, like turnabout serenade (Machi and thallassa) or Phoenix Wright asinine attorney (Pearl and ahlbi)
In chronicles and vs, a loud obvious audio cue takes out the skill from it, and just makes it feel like a waste of a gameplay feature. It’s not fun when it holds your hand the entire time (cough cough logic chess)
Grand grimiore I have no good or bad thoughts on since again, just evidence.
goood vid, but not liking hermlock sholmes, while understable, is a crime against god. But hey I'll put in a good word for you
That's an interesting take on the mini-games of the AA. I wouldn't say i agree with the most of it, but you did make some arguments that made me think a little and look at those mechanics from somewhat different perspective. In my personal opinion:
(lower end)
12. First off, just technically there's more than 10 special gameplay mechanics that appeared throughout the series, and while i don't exactly understand how did you managed to miss 1 of them, the other one is certainly more forgettable. Aaaaand this "other one" *definitely* should be at the bottom of the list in my personal opinion: the Grand Grimoire from PWvsPL. The most underutilized, underdeveloped and most importantly - boring gameplay "mechanic". Technically, it's not even a new mechanic - it's just a new "page" for different style of "evidence". It could had the greatest potential if it was developed a bit more, especially considering how this game was already made the AA mechanics look more like an elaborate puzzle. We could have gotten a giant book with a few dozens of different spells to confuse us and give them some special categories with elaborate descriptions to make the player actually *navigate* through a giant book of spells to find the ones we need to make our case. But instead, we received a "book" which usually updates with 2 spells per case that we need for that specific case too. And all the while other spells we received earlier already becoming meaningless. And sometimes the spells added not even used in the game! In the end, The Grand Grimoire is the most shallow mechanic, and just a glorified Court Records menu.
11. Logic. I'm sorry, but this was the most clunky gameplay mechanic AA ever had. The basic forms of "connect the dots" sequences are usually by themselves are somewhat damaging to the detective genre by default. Usually - because this types of "connections" usually have each half of an answer in each dot you need to connect. And Logic *is* that said basic form. I know that AA is mostly "contradiction" type of games by their design, thus - making "investigation" parts less of a focus in the series. But while making the Miles Edgeworth spinoff, the investigation became the most prominent feature of the game. And then, by making Logic, devs ruined half of the process for the investigations of the game. At least, that half that involves Logic. Firstly - because half of the time it's not us who having an epiphany, but the game who making the Logic bad or obvious. And secondly... because most parts of the Logic sequences are either redundant(We can't prove that Alba don't want us to investigate Manny's murder bc they are connected, until we prove that through connecting the two stupid dots in AAI-5?), stupidly easy and almost patronizing(like the pistol being the murder weapon in AAI-1 or balloon popping because of a cactus in AAI-4), becoming unnecessary roadblocks(We can't investigate the display case until we connect the dots about piggy bank having a hat in AAI-2? Seriously?!) or are awfully constructed(the whole stupid sequence about whereabouts of the cassette tape with the most idiotic arguments of "i got it! Incorporeal things can move from window to window!" in AAI-4). Granted, it's mostly the first investigation game's problem. Second one handled it better(at least, i don't remember being butthurt\hysterical by it aside from the mole joke in AAI2-1), but still that mechanic just not very *fun* to play. It could be improved, i think. I think only the final logic in AAI-2 was actually *GOOD* example of logic, where just a little thing could give Edgeworth a new leads and make a turnabout of the case.
10. Little thief. Firstly, i totally agree that this mechanic is underutilized. But sadly, this is the main reason why i actually dislike it. Because it underutilized, it had very little time to actually find flaws within itself that could be ironed out later. In the AAI1 it was just the investigation sequence with different colour scheme. And only by AAI2 it was made into something interesting with implemented time feature. But in the end it's still just an investigation.
9. Percieve. Despite the fact i'm AA:AJ apologist and one of the fans of Percieve mechanic, i would say that it was botched up badly as the time went by. If it weren't for the DD and SoJ influence, it would probably be a bit higher. Anyway, i always liked the idea of tells and nervous ticks. It's somewhat unique, and is one of those few less otherworldly(Magatama and Seanse) and less technically advanced(Little Thief and Mood Matrix) mechanics, which make it quite realistic for the AA games. I would argue that either Phoenix nor Athena couldn't do this mechanic because of the way it works. We know that Phoenix is good, but Trucy even better at spotting those tells. Problem arises within the game lore: Phoenix found out about case 1 tell, and Trucy found one in the case 2 of AJ. But after that it even Trucy couldn't find tells that small. Almost unnoticeable fiddling of the ring and a scarf? Eye twitching behind reflective sunglasses? The exact moment when the person started to sweat? I don't think it's enough for Phoenix to notice them, and Thena is definitely not exactly "perceptive" kind of person, despite her ability. XD
Anyway, i digress. I think that this mechanic would be somewhat easy to fix: just make the double presenting a thing or on the contrary - make a double\triple perceiving a thing! Latter, i think, would work even better. You pressing them on a little nervous tick for them become more aggravated and nervous, which would make their tell even more obvious when they give you an excuse! And you will point out their lie until all the fluff is gone and only THEN you can present evidence to that clean statement to actually break their testimony.
8. That's the second mechanic i think you forgot to mention: multiple witnesses from PWvsPL and TGAA! Its really fresh and unique way of making a cross examination, that certainly makes it more interesting. I would, however, say that it has a few flaws on it's own. Usually - that it makes no noticeable difference to the players that always pressing statements anyway. Moreover, it was very easy in TGAA games after a bit more confusing, but enjoyably harder PWvsPL crossover game.
(rest in the replies)
(middle end)
7. Closing Arguments. Nothing can be said here, you mostly said what i think about this mini-game. A bit too much like the cross examination. Also - shout-out to the Shu Takumi for re-using the base mechanic of statement contradiction from PWvsPL. A bit underutilized, tho.
6. Revisualization. It was always somewhat a middle ground for me personally. I find this mechanic to be... a bit weaker than it should be. While sometimes those reveals *ARE* interesting and a bit unexpected, but due to the nature of this mini-game, it's solely relies on the shock value and "unexpectance" of that reveal. If it's boring or was predicted half an hour ago - this mini-game looses not only it's momentum, but the whole point as well. Which, in term, could destroy the whole narrative moments of the game. Which means that this type of reveals should be actually well thought out. Also - it's a bit to simple for my taste. I would agree that the timer here would be a nice touch that would STILL be running even during internal monologues. And maybe a bit more serious take on the wrong answers(still, the "she made mistake in -> her life choices" will never stop getting a chuckle out of me) plus the amount of them as well too.
5. Somewhat of a hot take, but i'm not a huge fan of Magatama. It's one of the best, but still one of the most flat mechanics of the AA series. It never changed a bit starting from 2002. In fact, it became only worse with time. They lost the cool "chain wrap up" feeling from the DS after making a re-make and after AA:AJ! :(
Anyway, while i do love the interrogation mini-game during the somewhat boring investigations from the main AA games, i would say that it's not always perfect. The lack of innovations aside - some of the Magatama sequences are actually kinda... pointless? Don't get me wrong, sometimes those are funny(like the Oldbag one in JFA or Gumshue in T&T), but there was a few that were a bit redundant and didn't made much sense overall. I like Magatama. It's just... How do i put it?.. A bit uninspiring at this point, especially considering what did they do to it in the last games.
4. Dance of Deduction. Same here, mostly. Just without the Sholms remark. XD
Also, while i agree that hearing the deduction twice is strange, i would argue that it's necessary for the "Sholms deduction change!" loop to happen. After all, usually Sholms changing his train of thoughts after realizing he was mistaken in the first half of it. Which just wouldn't be possible with only one deduction scene. I generally like this energetic type of investigation. Too sad it was just a little bit *too* wacky in the second TGAA game.
(rest a bit lower)
(top 3)
3. Divination Séance. I'm with you for the most part about this mini-game. However i would say it's a bit lacking in the dynamic department. It's just... so... *SLOW!* I can't stand it sometimes. It's cool, it's atmospheric, it's intricate and actually quite intriguing, but until you figure one part of the séance you would stuck in the repetitive loop of usually slow animations. It's also have the same problem Revisualization have about reveals that could be uncovered beforehand or be boring. Only partially, but still. Also, considering how technically hard the séance is, i would consider that the penalty for the mistake is a bit *too high* - the 1\5th of the health bar. There's way to many possible combinations with a few rounds too. Sometimes - strict timing to boot. And there was an instance where you had to point out something OTHER that you found first to make the story progress the way it wants you to. It should have remained only an 1\10th of penalty. There's way too many little nitpicks for me to fully enjoy this mechanic wholeheartedly and to the fullest.
2. It was probably one of the hardest picks ever: out of the two remaining mechanics left, i would say that i love them both equally. Especially because one of them makes the trial segments more interesting, while the other one makes the investigation segments more interesting. But if we'll use some logic to it... I would say, that the second place goes to the Logic Chess. For me - they are the best investigation type mini-game in the series. And rightfully so - it's fun, endearing, it looks cool, it have gorgeous music... There's way to little things to be "bettered", actually. Just make the answers a bit more serious, and timing - more strict. Maybe even make the penalty bigger(it's 1\10th if the time runs out right now, it's should be 1\5th), bc technically you pestering the witness or letting him get away!
1. And yeah, my personal favorite is the Mood Matrix. Out of all "troubles" i think it's the easiest to fix. Changing the character speaking is not a big of a deal. I think difficulty was more or less good(maybe should be just a little bit harder). But i think it shouldn't have the HP penalty. After all, how would it be possible if the Judge allowed us to make a session and is probably don't know anything about psychology?.. So it shouldn't have HP penalty... it should have the time limit one.
Yeah, i'd suggest giving Mood Matrix the time limit. Not very short one, but with huge penalties if you make a mistake. After all, this is a therapy session *in the middle of a trial* . I would think that sooner or later Judge would be sick of hearing our mistakes, ending the session and thus - giving us a penalty for "stalling for time". That would made perfect sense too. I think that this would really spice up the gameplay of the Mood Matrix for the better. And would actually make sense narratively: instead of panicking and using emotions to work with emotions, you should use cold head and work with emotions logically.
Anyway, here's my personal opinion on the mechanics of the AA series.
Thanx for that video, it's well-put!
For the record I forgot neither of those, I see the stupid grimoire as just evidence and the multiple witness thing as just a version of cross exam
Dude has some balls putting the GAA mechanics in the middle. I respect that.
Ace attorney is like drugs, but drugs are bad for your body
Logic Chess could’ve been way better, but I think they hit the mark multiple times.
Against Lotta Hart the time was made an actual obstacle.
I think Larry’s logic chess was hilarious, practically the teacher forcing you to answer B 5 times in a row.
Blaise’s, Courtney’s and Sebastian’s Logic Chess were also executed very well imo. It deserved to be higher.
Also Logic should’ve been a lot higher…
Plus I think that Logic Chess not being punishing isn’t a real problem, because getting a penalty in this game just means you have to start over from a save point, which I don’t like for AA games.
Personally I like the feeling of tension you get if you don’t save scum and have to last the chapter on one health bar, but I can understand not liking that
@@XenoviasCave The tension is great, agreed. The punishment just kinda sucks.
@@crescentmoon5686I can’t fault a punishment personally for sucking cuz like
That’s the point of a punishment
@@XenoviasCave You misunderstand me. Of course punishments should suck, but I mean that the punishment you get is just bad. It just makes you replay the game from your last save, and wastes your time because you already know all the answers up until where you lost.
The funny thing is, JFA did this the right way in the last case, by showing us what would happen if Engarde got acquitted, just like Chrono Trigger.
There are a lot of games that do punishment for losing a lot better than the AA franchise and as it is, it’s kinda nothing except for a waste of my time.
This is also really my only critique that applies to this whole franchise, I’m mostly just disappointed that these great games have such a badly developed penalty system.
It’s also just wasted potential, because when Godot raises the penalty to the whole bar for example, that’s a really good moment! Too bad the punishment just doesn’t work…
@@crescentmoon5686 I feel I should mention something really important
This is true for the older games, but newer entries don’t actually send you back to the beginning, they send you to the beginning of the last testimony or whatever you were doing, just a portion of the way back
I’ll agree maybe the punishment is too much in older games but not newer ones
I will admit that Dance of Deduction is very slow because of going through it twice, but it wouldn't make sense to have those completely silly out there conclusions unless it's structured that way (which tbf does wrap around to your other point, if you don't like Herlock, you're not going to enjoy that part). Also the slowness is paid off with the final one where you do essentially fix it as you go along thereby communicating the strength of Sholmes and Mikotoba's partnership through mechanics, which is one of my favorite moments from the game. To put it another way, I don't really disagree, but I think fixing it so as to be a better experience for most of the instances where it shows up would be a net negative.
That said, while I'd probably put the jury at the top (mainly because I find the jurors themselves to be very fun), I do really like divination seances, definitely a close second for me.
I like the great deduction
at first I was like man Sholmes is kinda stupid is this like incompetent detective tropes or something? then story progress and it's clear up give me satisfying results
Mood Matrix also my favorite simply because it's tied to Athena I do agree that it could use some penalty but I see it can be used for investigations segment
lastly I just want to see GAA mechanic to go into AA7
Im about to give what might be the most unpopular opinion here
I like the psyche lock theme in Apollo Justice
This is Kibo and your video is based
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Also the end with miu 💀
I wouldn't rank jury and dance above thief. What they do is first complicate simple problems and then draw simple conclusions, most of the time they create problems rather than solve them.
perceive isn't about the habits of person it's about the one habit appears when lying cuz everyone have tons of habits apollo can feel the muscles tensing and his braclets reacts thats why and its lot better then magatama cuz you use some non spiritual cheat code lie detector but your characters actual skill it makes you feel like a genious
NAHHHHH PERCIVE IS THE TIGHTEST THING EVERRRRRRRRRR good vid
1:25 Well, not really, and it is explained pretty poorly in Turnabout Succession.
You see, Athena has very good hearing, and Apollo has very good eyesight. It's kinda something like eagle vision. I don't think you notice hand trembling slightly from 5-10 meters away, even if you focus very well.
neat and cool video
Ngl, this video is very good and I can agree with pretty much all of it. Invesigations games are pretty terrible with their mechanics. DGS ones are definetly a bit superfluous and narratively they are pretty awful (like Closing Statements are so obviously overpowered that it makes no sense for it to be a forgotten mechanic). And yeah, getting through Herlock's repetition is definetly a lot more boring than it needs to be. Revizualization is very fun from a gameplay standpoint to have those "Aha!" moments on screen instead of just everything being in the background and che character coming to that conlusion without much fanfare in certain cases. And Divination Seance is easily the most creative one
This is a pretty great list and I can't say I disagree with it.
But about Apollo's ability; it's an irl thing, but it is a rare thing to be born with. You can learn to do it, but not to the extent that Apollo and Trucy can in the game.
9.7533 out of ten
Divination Seance? C'mon dude hahahaha
Anyway disagreeing and complaining time
I never got the divination nonsense
I found the minigames confusing and unintuitive, and I didnt really like the princess lol
Mood matrix I also wasn't a huge fan of. I over think emotions and get really confused in that one. Unless it was unbelievably obvious then I managed to explain it away in my head because emotions are messy and people are confusing. I also struggled to differentiate surprise and fear.
Plus the sound effects were REALLY annoying
Perhaps this is just another autism moment 😔
I love the dance of deduction because sholmes is my favourite character in the series. I'm okay with going through it twice because I love seeing his ludicrous and blatantly wrong deduction, and then having ryunosuke go "..ok lets try this again" and correcting him on the way
The dramatic lookback at the end of every case was one I did enjoy more than expected, but I wouldn't put AS high
It felt like it soured each case the tiniest bit knowing for a fact that there was gonna be some ludicrous case spinning twist at the end that a glorified cutscene would make me figure out
Although typing that out made me realise that thats Just ace attorney so hm. Still conflicted
Percieve is still baffling to me. Not only does the gameplay suck, but naritavely it makes no sense
I do not like having to scour the screen for one tiny animation change. It feels like the only way to do that well is to already know the solution, and if you do, what's the point
Also, apollo really just goes "youre lying"
"No I'm not"
*looks at them really hard* "YOURE LYING!!!!!"
"AAARGGGGG YOURE RIGHT!!!!"
Its truly Source: trust me bro
I adore ace attorney though do not get me wrong, I just love talking about it so much that I couldnt help myself
What confused you in the divination minigame? I thought it was pretty forward with cross referencing the vision with a testimony
@Athenalikespizza My memory of Spirit of Justice is the fuzziest of all the games so apologies that I'm being pretty vague
I just remember having no idea what was happening, what the game wanted from me, and what would even count as contradictory in this situation
Another instance of me overthinking and explaining away contradictions maybe
The only one i didn't like was plain logic; I would put perceive way above the magatama, though
Athena should get a game in Kuraih'n (or however you spell it)
All of the Investigations gimmicks being almost dead last is sad but like, I can't help but agree. As much as I liked the Investigations series those features were annoying, especially logic chess. I had a guide at my side in all honesty, just to get through them ASAP
Now that I think about it, are you that one person I see on the Subreddit? With a Similar Name of "Athenalikespizza" or am I just going crazy?
Yeah that’s me I don’t use Reddit a lot tho
@@XenoviasCave you're on reddit a decent amount. I see you post every so often and all...
Pretty cool to see you here I won't lie, and great video 👍
@@Effkin176 yeah I usually check the aa Reddit every week or so
is there a link to the HD investigations 2 download? and is there an english one?
It’s on blue stacks
The English translation will be put onto the HD version, I just don’t know when sadly 😔
Hey nevermind lol someone just revealed the games on mobile you fan play it now android and pc
ruclips.net/video/DQix785_cpc/видео.html
Wow i HATE
HATE
the Divination Seances. Really really vage, really really great room to F'ed up, really really not fun to play for me. But i get your point why u like it i guess.
cool video
I hate the soj mechanic, it's so bad
Bro literally the first place is my most hated one 😭😭😭