Looking forward to coming back to the spoiler section after the book. Great stuff. I am so excited to be back with Dragnipur as a focus. And what a name for that wagon within! He could make a dragnipur style novella if he wished too.
Please, don't make excuses for rambling, i really appreciate a good ramble (and this was a very entertaining and educational ramble). These kind of video's make me realise why i love Malazan so much. Thanks, really enjoyed this!
I never get tired of hearing that someone enjoyed a video. It is such a great feeling when someone comments and tells you they enjoyed something you made. So thank you very much, sometimes comments like these have a greater impact than you might realise.
This was brilliant, A.P.! Thank you for adding the spoiler context in addition to analysis of elements in the prologue. You explained everything very clearly and deepened my appreciate for it.
Starting out a video of this kind, containing deep analysis and careful parsing of language, by defining terms and their usage is very useful and illuminating! Thank you very much once again, Prof. Fireballs
As much as I suffered in the past for TtH not getting the deserved (imo) attention, you're doing justice to this book with these videos. I'm very, very grateful for that! Cheers and see you in the next one :)
@@ACriticalDragon hahahah A.P, the standard for a TtH video is to exist / be created. We're already winning when you're the creator of that vid Also: the details you so beautifully explained here from the prologue - I missed them like an idiot misses the point. ☺️ Thank you again for taking the time to unveil the beauties of Erikson's writing
In my memory I had replaced Edgewalker with Rake, therefore I was aware of Rake and Hood meeting up in the prologue to make a plan. So when you mentioned Edgewalker meeting with Hood, I was like: "wait what? where the hell is rake, I am so confused." Luckily you resolved my confusion. In the end i am kinda proud of my self for getting this without your help. Also great video. I really like your "rambling". I always get more insight into MBotF with your videos and therefore my appreciation of the malazan world and your contend grows and grows.
Thanks Hans Peter, I know that some of the topics I cover and some of the videos go over things that people already understand, but I hope that I shed some light on how Erikson created the effects.
@@ACriticalDragon It seems like I often miss those parts where you go over things that people already understand. :D But well, since I discovered your channel my textanalysis skills developed drastically. :)
Loved your interpretation A.P. When I read the prologue, I saw the people as the fall of two nations (Lether and Malazan) and their loss of control over their armies (their dogs of war). So interesting how people approach a text differently. Cheers.
Do you plan on doing an analysis on the magic in Malazan? I would be interested to hear your thoughts on it and how Steven Erikson uses it narratively.
Wonderful video! Even though I've read the series multiple times, I always learn a fact or two from your talks, and come away with a deeper understanding and appreciation for the books.
As I watch this video, I'm looking out to the gray clouds hanging over equally gray fields and the gray forest beyond. I pick at the frayed ends of my once opulent Carhartt jacket. My dog sits beside me, connected to me by his tattered canvas leash. Suddenly everything seems so surreal.
Could we say, the A.P pointing out that people make fun of him for using the phrase "Point of connection" is him making a point of connection so... point of point of connection connection if you will. :D But jokes aside, another great video on literary analysis which helps me erase the deep rooted aversion to it which I acquired from school system, thank you very much!
On the one hand I am really happy that you enjoyed the video, on the other hand I am so sorry that you didn't enjoy literary analysis in school. Literary analysis has been a great source of joy and interest in my life, so I hope that some of that comes across and helps you banish the school room dread. Thank you for watching and leaving a comment.
@@ACriticalDragon Your joy most certainly comes across and it's a huge part of why I love your videos so much. It's rather refreshing updating my perspective on the "language" side of things. All my life I was mostly natural sciences oriented, because those have come to me naturally (pun somewhat intended), but it's great to have the opportunity to learn from someone who's clearly excited about any topic, so thank you for creating such great content.
This was great! Actually, I would love to see a dedicated Dragnipur discussion when you have finished the books, I think that could be really interesting. There's so much that ties into Dragnipur in the whole series, and of course it's also just a really cool prop. And yes, this part confused me to no end on my first read. :) I remember trying to decipher it, I saw the dogs and made the Hound connection, I noticed Hood, but I really had no idea what was going on. I still enjoyed reading it, though! Is there any author alive that writes as well for re-reads as Erikson? I doubt it!
I am so pleased that you enjoyed the video. Thank you. Something I always worry about is whether or not the thing I am discussing is too obvious and doesn't need discussion. So I am always happy to hear that someone actually enjoyed the video.
Just starting the video but noticed that fancy book of the new sun up there. Any chance we going to get some Gene Wolfe analysis??? Pretty please lol. Anyway back to the video.
Can't hear Edgewalker's name without going down a rabbit hole of speculation. Has Steve revealed to you who he is? And, if so, what sort of bribe will it take for you to reveal it to us? Also, great video!
Can you do a video on how to do a close read of a passage? I understand that it is something taught in english classes but I am interested in how you approach it. Any resources you know of as well would be great!
There are some excellent videos on RUclips already (one by Dr. Clare Wright of the University of Kent is very good and thorough) as well as a host of other videos that range from introductions to close reading all the way to specific techniques. But in general, I read in passes. The first time reading for context and the 'what happens'. So a surface level read to get a general sense of what happened. Then read again but this time focus on specifics on 'how' the author evoked the sense of what happened. Then read again multiple times but each time picking a main element (be it grammar and syntax, or structural movements, or word choice and patterns of words, or themes, or metaphors, similes, symbols and icons. or looking specifically at dialogue or character descriptors.) But with each subsequent read I tend to isolate a specific element that I am looking at and looking for. What you choose to focus on and the order of importance you place on it is determined by the context of the passage/section you are analysing, and also the purpose with which you are close reading. So with a prologue I quite often focus on atmosphere, theme, symbolism, in terms of how the prologue may be setting things up or foreshadowing things for the main narrative. But because I am doing it for a RUclips video I will probably also look for techniques that the author has used, and any elements that strike me as interesting to discuss.
The more that you practice this the faster you get, the fewer passes you do because you start to combine them, and the more you do this unconsciously when you are reading 'normally'. It becomes a process in the back of your head that you constantly have active even when you are not thinking about it. Certain things will catch your eye as you are reading and you file that information away in your mind.
For most of the book I thought the man that joins Kruppe and Krul at the fire was Kallor. I think Erikson used “gaunt” and “grey haired” to describe them both so that connection just stuck with.
Hi Mitch, that is why context is so important to close and active reading. Fisher and Kallor share a couple of descriptors, but of the two, who is more likely to be the person sitting down to listen to a story alongside K'rul? That is why the scene with Fisher speaking to Duiker is so illuminating.
Just some random comments. So what woman do we know that might own dogs... looking at this again, it reminds me a little of the old couple in the later Dune books. But for the second part, it states prior to the highlighted portion that they were waiting for one more. When I read these I took the wheels to be referring to the Trade Guild. It also references jade arrows in the sky which I don't think has been mentioned manifesting in other warrens? Where do jade giants go then they die?
It could be the trade guild, but to be honest, I think the sound of the carriage wheels links more strongly to the cart in Dragnipur, especially given the juxtaposition presented in the scene transition.
It isn't a reveal per se. It is the implication that this happened, and then, later on when it is we realise that there was a pact and the reader thinks 'When did that happen' you have an Ah Ha moment and remember that this was in the prologue. A bit like in those films when something happens at the end and they show you a flashback of earlier scenes and read them in a new light/context. So there is no true 'reveal' it is the evidence to support a later fact. The evidence of who Shadowthrone and Cotillion are is heavily implied in the earlier points of Gardens of the Moon, but the blatant, overt confirmation of that is in Deadhouse Gates. I would think that most readers have guessed it by the end of GotM if not a lot earlier. So there is no 'reveal' there either. Merely a confirmation of information the reader has already received. A reveal is generally information that has been kept from the reader finally being exposed, usually in a dramatic fashion. In both the cases of this and the identities of Shadowthrone and Cotillion, that information has been hinted at, implied, or covertly shown to the reader. Not hidden. It may not have been overtly disclosed, but it is not withheld. The information is there, we just didn't have the context to fully understand it. So it is similar to a reveal, but is a slightly different mechanism and function. I suppose you could say that the later information is the reveal about the context of this information. The later information gives you the additional context. But the early point is not a reveal.
Yes, but again genre considerations and style of narrative come into play. The narrative tools are deployed differently in different narratives and different genres. Red Herrings are deliberate attempts to mislead the reader and deliberately suggest a conclusion that turns out to be false. There are very few of those in MBotF. Again, subversion is like this but slightly different.
I wouldn't interpret that way as a) she doesn't 'see' anything, she hears the rumbling of what she thinks are carriage wheels. So she is describing a sound with a frame of reference that she as a rich noble is familiar with. b) We are immediately transitioned into Dragnipur. c) Rake's name is almost immediately mentioned. Sooooo given that the entire MBotF is written from the position of an unreliable narrator, and TtH is explicitly from the position of an unreliable narrator, and we have already had 7 books in which we have been conditioned to understand that all characters can be fallible and mistaken, and especially in this case in which she is a character that explicitly is dead, doesn't remember things, and cannot be relied upon to provide correct 'factual' information, if you take all that into account, you are not meant nor intended to take what she says as fact. So this is the same unreliable information that we usually get, and in this case there are pains to link the sound directly to Rake. So I wouldn't describe it as a Red Herring. It is not intended to mislead the reader to a conclusion. There is no obvious conclusion associated with the sounds of carriage wheels. It is not definitive enough. Wagon wheels, on the other hand, have a strong association, especially when we transition into the next scene that explicitly, overtly, and blatantly references what is going on in Dragnipur. Plus, all the previous language about Hounds and leashes in the first scene are incredibly suggestive of Dragnipur... So looking at the scene in aggregate, it creates a composite link to Rake.
Looking forward to coming back to the spoiler section after the book. Great stuff. I am so excited to be back with Dragnipur as a focus.
And what a name for that wagon within! He could make a dragnipur style novella if he wished too.
Fantastic video, Professor Fireballs! You are a treasure for all of us here on BookTube, which makes you both a Critical Dragon and what it sits on! 😁
I am glad that you enjoyed it, my friend/nemesis/frenemy.
We should talk soon.
@@ACriticalDragon Sounds like a “plan”! 😉 See you in a few hours!
I was waiting for a 'throne' joke and it never came... 😐
@@Paul_van_Doleweerd I was leaving the opening for you, Paul!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy You went to a dark place...
Please, don't make excuses for rambling, i really appreciate a good ramble (and this was a very entertaining and educational ramble).
These kind of video's make me realise why i love Malazan so much.
Thanks, really enjoyed this!
I never get tired of hearing that someone enjoyed a video. It is such a great feeling when someone comments and tells you they enjoyed something you made. So thank you very much, sometimes comments like these have a greater impact than you might realise.
This was brilliant, A.P.! Thank you for adding the spoiler context in addition to analysis of elements in the prologue. You explained everything very clearly and deepened my appreciate for it.
Hi Johanna, thank you. Now that you are a vet I am expecting that I can go to you for answers to my questions.
Starting out a video of this kind, containing deep analysis and careful parsing of language, by defining terms and their usage is very useful and illuminating! Thank you very much once again, Prof. Fireballs
You are very welcome, thank you for watching and the kind words.
As much as I suffered in the past for TtH not getting the deserved (imo) attention, you're doing justice to this book with these videos. I'm very, very grateful for that!
Cheers and see you in the next one :)
I am so pleased that you think so. A Toll the Hounds video must meet the Rox standard of acceptability. 😁
@@ACriticalDragon hahahah A.P, the standard for a TtH video is to exist / be created. We're already winning when you're the creator of that vid
Also: the details you so beautifully explained here from the prologue - I missed them like an idiot misses the point. ☺️ Thank you again for taking the time to unveil the beauties of Erikson's writing
In my memory I had replaced Edgewalker with Rake, therefore I was aware of Rake and Hood meeting up in the prologue to make a plan.
So when you mentioned Edgewalker meeting with Hood, I was like: "wait what? where the hell is rake, I am so confused." Luckily you resolved my confusion.
In the end i am kinda proud of my self for getting this without your help.
Also great video. I really like your "rambling". I always get more insight into MBotF with your videos and therefore my appreciation of the malazan world and your contend grows and grows.
Thanks Hans Peter, I know that some of the topics I cover and some of the videos go over things that people already understand, but I hope that I shed some light on how Erikson created the effects.
@@ACriticalDragon It seems like I often miss those parts where you go over things that people already understand. :D
But well, since I discovered your channel my textanalysis skills developed drastically. :)
Loved your interpretation A.P. When I read the prologue, I saw the people as the fall of two nations (Lether and Malazan) and their loss of control over their armies (their dogs of war). So interesting how people approach a text differently. Cheers.
That is a very interesting interpretation of the symbolism. I hadn't thought of that. Very cool.
Do you plan on doing an analysis on the magic in Malazan? I would be interested to hear your thoughts on it and how Steven Erikson uses it narratively.
Hi, it wasn't something I had intended to do a video on, but I will certainly think about it and add it to the list of topics.
Wonderful video! Even though I've read the series multiple times, I always learn a fact or two from your talks, and come away with a deeper understanding and appreciation for the books.
Thank you very much. I am glad that you enjoyed it.
In the Malazan world. "Her face was blue." She must be from Napan.
So are Napans really cold, depressed, or do they curse a lot?
@@gerdforster883 Probably a bit of everything. :D
As I watch this video, I'm looking out to the gray clouds hanging over equally gray fields and the gray forest beyond. I pick at the frayed ends of my once opulent Carhartt jacket. My dog sits beside me, connected to me by his tattered canvas leash. Suddenly everything seems so surreal.
If you hear loud carriage wheels, run.
Great video, loved it thank you!
Could we say, the A.P pointing out that people make fun of him for using the phrase "Point of connection" is him making a point of connection so... point of point of connection connection if you will. :D
But jokes aside, another great video on literary analysis which helps me erase the deep rooted aversion to it which I acquired from school system, thank you very much!
On the one hand I am really happy that you enjoyed the video, on the other hand I am so sorry that you didn't enjoy literary analysis in school. Literary analysis has been a great source of joy and interest in my life, so I hope that some of that comes across and helps you banish the school room dread. Thank you for watching and leaving a comment.
@@ACriticalDragon Your joy most certainly comes across and it's a huge part of why I love your videos so much. It's rather refreshing updating my perspective on the "language" side of things. All my life I was mostly natural sciences oriented, because those have come to me naturally (pun somewhat intended), but it's great to have the opportunity to learn from someone who's clearly excited about any topic, so thank you for creating such great content.
Well I am a self-confessed geek and nerd. I can't help it. I love stories.
This was great! Actually, I would love to see a dedicated Dragnipur discussion when you have finished the books, I think that could be really interesting. There's so much that ties into Dragnipur in the whole series, and of course it's also just a really cool prop.
And yes, this part confused me to no end on my first read. :) I remember trying to decipher it, I saw the dogs and made the Hound connection, I noticed Hood, but I really had no idea what was going on. I still enjoyed reading it, though! Is there any author alive that writes as well for re-reads as Erikson? I doubt it!
I am so pleased that you enjoyed the video. Thank you. Something I always worry about is whether or not the thing I am discussing is too obvious and doesn't need discussion. So I am always happy to hear that someone actually enjoyed the video.
Just starting the video but noticed that fancy book of the new sun up there. Any chance we going to get some Gene Wolfe analysis??? Pretty please lol. Anyway back to the video.
Yup, that is scheduled for one of the books post-Malazan.
Can't hear Edgewalker's name without going down a rabbit hole of speculation. Has Steve revealed to you who he is? And, if so, what sort of bribe will it take for you to reveal it to us? Also, great video!
One Gazillion Dollars... and not a cent less.
Can you do a video on how to do a close read of a passage? I understand that it is something taught in english classes but I am interested in how you approach it. Any resources you know of as well would be great!
There are some excellent videos on RUclips already (one by Dr. Clare Wright of the University of Kent is very good and thorough) as well as a host of other videos that range from introductions to close reading all the way to specific techniques.
But in general, I read in passes.
The first time reading for context and the 'what happens'. So a surface level read to get a general sense of what happened.
Then read again but this time focus on specifics on 'how' the author evoked the sense of what happened.
Then read again multiple times but each time picking a main element (be it grammar and syntax, or structural movements, or word choice and patterns of words, or themes, or metaphors, similes, symbols and icons. or looking specifically at dialogue or character descriptors.)
But with each subsequent read I tend to isolate a specific element that I am looking at and looking for.
What you choose to focus on and the order of importance you place on it is determined by the context of the passage/section you are analysing, and also the purpose with which you are close reading.
So with a prologue I quite often focus on atmosphere, theme, symbolism, in terms of how the prologue may be setting things up or foreshadowing things for the main narrative.
But because I am doing it for a RUclips video I will probably also look for techniques that the author has used, and any elements that strike me as interesting to discuss.
The more that you practice this the faster you get, the fewer passes you do because you start to combine them, and the more you do this unconsciously when you are reading 'normally'. It becomes a process in the back of your head that you constantly have active even when you are not thinking about it. Certain things will catch your eye as you are reading and you file that information away in your mind.
Thank you so much !
You are very welcome, I hope that what I said helps.
For most of the book I thought the man that joins Kruppe and Krul at the fire was Kallor. I think Erikson used “gaunt” and “grey haired” to describe them both so that connection just stuck with.
Hi Mitch, that is why context is so important to close and active reading. Fisher and Kallor share a couple of descriptors, but of the two, who is more likely to be the person sitting down to listen to a story alongside K'rul? That is why the scene with Fisher speaking to Duiker is so illuminating.
Just some random comments.
So what woman do we know that might own dogs... looking at this again, it reminds me a little of the old couple in the later Dune books.
But for the second part, it states prior to the highlighted portion that they were waiting for one more. When I read these I took the wheels to be referring to the Trade Guild.
It also references jade arrows in the sky which I don't think has been mentioned manifesting in other warrens? Where do jade giants go then they die?
Could be that the Trade Guild brought Rake to the meeting.
It could be the trade guild, but to be honest, I think the sound of the carriage wheels links more strongly to the cart in Dragnipur, especially given the juxtaposition presented in the scene transition.
@@ACriticalDragon And who else would show up late to his own meeting?
@@EricMcLuen Warren traffic can be a nightmare at rush hour.
@@ACriticalDragon Especially if you forgot the change to pay the...
I have to admit, I missed it. This feels a bit like the "reveal" of the identities of Shadowthrone and Cotillion in GotM.
It isn't a reveal per se. It is the implication that this happened, and then, later on when it is we realise that there was a pact and the reader thinks 'When did that happen' you have an Ah Ha moment and remember that this was in the prologue. A bit like in those films when something happens at the end and they show you a flashback of earlier scenes and read them in a new light/context.
So there is no true 'reveal' it is the evidence to support a later fact.
The evidence of who Shadowthrone and Cotillion are is heavily implied in the earlier points of Gardens of the Moon, but the blatant, overt confirmation of that is in Deadhouse Gates. I would think that most readers have guessed it by the end of GotM if not a lot earlier. So there is no 'reveal' there either. Merely a confirmation of information the reader has already received.
A reveal is generally information that has been kept from the reader finally being exposed, usually in a dramatic fashion. In both the cases of this and the identities of Shadowthrone and Cotillion, that information has been hinted at, implied, or covertly shown to the reader. Not hidden. It may not have been overtly disclosed, but it is not withheld. The information is there, we just didn't have the context to fully understand it. So it is similar to a reveal, but is a slightly different mechanism and function.
I suppose you could say that the later information is the reveal about the context of this information. The later information gives you the additional context.
But the early point is not a reveal.
@@ACriticalDragon Thanks, that's clear. I agree the clues are there but you've also got to consider possible red herrings.
Yes, but again genre considerations and style of narrative come into play. The narrative tools are deployed differently in different narratives and different genres. Red Herrings are deliberate attempts to mislead the reader and deliberately suggest a conclusion that turns out to be false. There are very few of those in MBotF. Again, subversion is like this but slightly different.
@@ACriticalDragon The "carriage" is a red herring. The scene is deceptively written to make it seem like the woman saw a carriage.
I wouldn't interpret that way as a) she doesn't 'see' anything, she hears the rumbling of what she thinks are carriage wheels. So she is describing a sound with a frame of reference that she as a rich noble is familiar with.
b) We are immediately transitioned into Dragnipur.
c) Rake's name is almost immediately mentioned.
Sooooo given that the entire MBotF is written from the position of an unreliable narrator, and TtH is explicitly from the position of an unreliable narrator, and we have already had 7 books in which we have been conditioned to understand that all characters can be fallible and mistaken, and especially in this case in which she is a character that explicitly is dead, doesn't remember things, and cannot be relied upon to provide correct 'factual' information, if you take all that into account, you are not meant nor intended to take what she says as fact.
So this is the same unreliable information that we usually get, and in this case there are pains to link the sound directly to Rake.
So I wouldn't describe it as a Red Herring. It is not intended to mislead the reader to a conclusion. There is no obvious conclusion associated with the sounds of carriage wheels. It is not definitive enough. Wagon wheels, on the other hand, have a strong association, especially when we transition into the next scene that explicitly, overtly, and blatantly references what is going on in Dragnipur.
Plus, all the previous language about Hounds and leashes in the first scene are incredibly suggestive of Dragnipur...
So looking at the scene in aggregate, it creates a composite link to Rake.