I finished this novel yesterday and thought it was very very powerful. One thing I loved was that the final paragraphs and final lines before the epilogue are about Harllo. After all those epic, momentous events, Erikson brings it back to the small and personal with Harllo, and how his story with Stonny is actually very similar to that of the Andii with Mother Dark. That was masterfully done.
Little thing struck me as you were discussing the conversation between Duiker and Fisher. You're of course familiar with the 'camps' of writing methods, the architects and the gardeners. I think Erikson used the two as examples of both methods - and their collaboration as a symbol for how he himself uses both methods. 'Duiker' is a word in Dutch which means 'diver', so we have a diver and a fisherman both of whom go into water to pull out treasure. But by very different means. If we add in K'rul and Kruppe it becomes even more interesting , as we have a creator god who lives within his creation and a narrator /interpreter from within the creation who manages to rise above it. Such a fantastic book, and an excellent exploration of the entire border between life and death in the choices we make, and the feelings that go along with that. Great discussion, on to part 2. Have a great Christmas AP. 😊
Thank you, A.P., for this discussion, which I found wonderful for helping me to process this sublime book. Also, please warn me in advance if you have any other awesome tweed jackets so I can hide my envy on camera.
Brilliant discussion. I just finished this novel for the first time and had a hard time reconciling my thoughts. This helped me immensely. Thank you guys
Thank you for this heartfelt discussion on Toll the Hounds. Although themes of grief and rage are clearly present in this book, I had never before thought about how ALL the stages of grief exist in this book: grief, anger, denial, bargaining, depression, and acceptance. Each of these qualities are present in nuanced ways as well as a non-linear way, which is a misconception people have with the word ‘stages’ and idea that you cycle through and are done. I’m happy you two have each other as well! 🤍
HI Johanna, I am so happy that you enjoyed the video. Like Deadhouse Gates, this book really packs an emotional punch for me, but in a very different way. The complexity of grief, its deeply personal and often times contradictory manifestations, can be very difficult to express, discuss, and to process. I really appreciate how Erikson approaches this in this book. I hope that you have a brilliant Christmas and New Year, all the very best to you.
I think this is a book that’s going to have a hell of a lot more resonance on a reread when I’m a bit older than my young 32 years. I think I was a bit impatient to get back to the faster paced military stuff of Bonehunters and Reaper’s Gale. Thanks for such a deep discussion, showing how other people might have their own personal resonances for something that didn’t have the same effect for me (just like your discussion at the end of other people at a funeral).
Hi Benjamin, personal responses for a text will have a lot to do with personal life experience in addition to the words on the page, and you are exactly right that our expectations for a novel can significantly impact the reading of it. Happy New Year to you and yours.
This tweed thing is going out of hand, and it's hilarious! Toll the Hounds getting so much attention brings me immense joy. What impresses me is the depth of your (and, of course, Erikson's) knowledge and understanding of the human psyche, and of grief. I know we all have our own personal experience with these emotions, and life spares no one of grief and loss, but you guys are putting into words emotions and thoughts I was and would never be able to. These are the perks of having two highly educated people discuss such delicate and complex feelings, I guess. :) Caladan's reaction to Rake's loss is solemn and very emotional. I too felt it was a very healthy and beautiful way to say goodbye to a friend. He probably knew Rake like no one else did. That profound respect and care with which he took care of his friend's funeral moved me so much. The many facets of loss and grief explored in Toll the Hounds make this book a very special one. Thank you for this sublime video, and I am looking forward to the next ones
AP, more than your comprehension, it’s your ability to channel the emotions to explain the story and context is why I come to hear your take on the series. Simple spectacular!
Just finished last night and Kallor's story and his complete incomprehension to the willing sacrifice the Tiste Andii endure and endure. Kallor from how he has consistently achieved worshippers and followers based all on protection and relinquishing of freedoms for Kallor's protection seems not even too painful to reflect on the past and his losses, but also incomprehensible to him that loyalty outside fealty can endeavor to achieve what the Andii have done in their survival. Also that grief sigil was added to the barrow and remembering back to anamader's sword's name!
So glad to see you discuss my favourite book of all time. The themes resonate so well with me and is something all humans can relate to. It helped me process and get through my grief in real life. The message wasn’t to make it disappear, but to learn and take the time to carry the weight of it, as it is always a part of you. I feel like grief is also used to explore catharsis, reconciliation and closure with Anomander Rake, and him saying goodbye. It’s so beautiful
Hi Cap, you eloquently express in a few lines what it took me paragraphs to say. Thank you for this. I am so pleased that this book helped you, I know that it served a very similar function for me.
I definitely needed the humour to help me through the grief explored in Toll the Hounds. TTH weaved together so many threads of grief and regret. Anyone who has gone through grief knows how important it is laugh sometimes, even if the laughter is bitter sweet. Gratitude for another great conversation 🙏.
as philip said, this book is sublime. a specific scene helped me process something i was going through, i was glad to hear you mention it. something i thought was brilliant was the ox perspective. he's thinking about things an ox would be thinking about and he manages to be deep and kinda philosophical at the same time. it's genius :O
Hi Trip, the feedback is in and people like the intro, so I wanted to thank you publicly for it. Thank you so very much. Have a fantastic break. PS. I liked the Ox PoV too. I thought it was an inspired choice.
January 1st. That's when I am starting Gardens of the Moon (a buddy read with Sarah, Baron and other people from Sarah Reads' discord!). I have already watched most of your discussions even if I have no idea what you're talking about, just because you guys are awesome and it also gives me some crumbs of information that maybe will help me focus and recognize some elements of the story ("Ah so this is why AP and Philip can't make a video on Malazan without saying the word 'compassion'"); but I'll save this one for later, when I reach Toll the Hounds later in 2022 (August ideally).
Good luck with the read-through. I hope that you enjoy the books as much as I do. I look forward to hearing your perspectives as you read through the series.
Thank you for this wonderful discussion! I was walking down the street while listening to it, and I kept pretending I had something in my eye... Going through the book and being so invested in it, I totally missed some thematic elements that you guys pointed out! PS. Absolutely adore that blue tweed!!!
Thank you for another wonderful discussion. I love Kruppe, so of course Toll the Hounds is one of my favourites. :) I'm so glad you highlighted that Fisher-Duiker scene! I always slow down a bit when Fisher enters a scene, because I often feel he works as a sort of stand-in for Erikson. Very happy to hear you mention that! I've no idea if it's intended that way, but Fisher certainly says a lot of thematically impactful things whenever he shows up.
Thank you both so much for this long awaited video. It was worth the wait and as always it was very informative and enriching to my understanding of the book. Thank you again for your efforts! 💙
Dr. Fantasy said, "We have to talk about Murillio" and my brain said, "The hell we do! I'm not ready for that". It's been over a year now since I read the scene and I didn't realize how attached I was to him and all these characters. Thanks for all the work putting the video together and for showing me more angles to analyze books.
Will watch the video later, just wanted to say that chaur and young harrlo are some of my favorite if not my favorite characters to ever be put in page right up there with beak. Those arcs with chaur and harrlo in this book are just so beautifully done, really makes me feel like there are my friends to
I hope that you enjoy the discussion. Harllo, Chaur, and Beak, are all wonderful characters that can certainly pull at the heart strings and wrench a great deal of emotion from us. It is an enduring mystery and power of literature that these words on the page can create such vivid characters that suddenly we know and feel for them as real people.
Your discussion pertaining to grief reminded me of a podcast done by ‘The Whitehorse Inn’ years ago in which theologians discuss grief from the perspective of Job out of the Old Testament. It has stayed with me over the years, and every two to three years I’ll relisten to the episode. I will say that this was a tough read for me, but listening to you and Phillip gives me more appreciation for the themes of grief, forgiveness, and love explored in this book.
Would love to see you guys argue (woops I mean discuss) over a tier list for the main Malazan books when you're finished! Personally, I found TTH and DoD the hardest to get through and reminiscent of the infamous slog of mid-series Wheel of Time.
I will certainly have a think about it, but I am pretty unlikely to ever do a tier list. That isn't how I generally think about books. But I will discuss it with Philip and see what he thinks. Thanks for watching. I hope that you enjoyed the video.
Always a pleasure gentleman! I've been around for everything you're putting out, just haven't got much time these days to do more than leave a like. Keep it up you book-tube stars!
Hi Karl, leaving a like, leaving a comment, these are both very nice things for me to see, but the important thing is that you enjoyed the video and that it was worth your time. So thank you for watching.
Great video as always guys. I loved the scene breakdown; “an epic to crush the hearts of a thousand generations” is an apt description of Deadhouse Gates.
Glad to hear that you got the booster. I hope you have zero side effects and it is all smooth sailing. In the meantime, thanks for watching. I hope that you enjoy the video.
I had visited here in search of the Toll the Hounds discussion when I finished the book but the videos weren't ready then. I went on to finish the series and I've a host of content to gorge on now. Thank you so much! Can't appreciate enough the discussions you have. Toll the Hounds is probably my favourite in the series (though in this series it's all marginal), so I'm glad there are multiple videos for this. Happy New Year too and looking forward to more!
Yaas! I've been waiting for this one, in fact I was in sync with you guys books wise until I finished this one and then had to finish the last two and get halfway through forge of darkness because it's all just that darn good. This has to be one of my favorite books in the series though.
The wait was all my fault. Life gets in the way sometimes and I threw Philip's brilliant scheduling out the window. Thanks for waiting and I hope that you enjoyed it.
@@ACriticalDragon beret? Nah, too French. It also might prompt a certain somebody to wear his tiara. Maybe flat cap, to continue the tweed theme? Have a woderful break as well and all the best to you and your family!
This was a wonderful discussion, thanks! I'm about halfway re-reading TtH, so i felt safe enough to watch this (although of course i can't be really spoiled having read this before). That scene with Duiker and Fisher in the bar was just so good, i read it multiple times. It's fun and emotional at the same time and i think it's one of those parts that gets more significance on a reread (at least it is for me).
You are very welcome, thank you. I am very glad that Philip mentioned the Duiker / Fisher scene. It is a such a small scene, that can easily be overlooked because of the other events, and yet it goes to the heart of what the series is exploring, and has surprisingly powerful emotions running through it. I hope that you are having a wonderful break.
I shudder to think what Kruppe would do to a Dickensian London. I can just imagine the mayhem. Thanks Johan, you have inspired a wonderful set of images in my head. Have a great day.
The story of Stonny & Harllo reminds me of Scillara who in a way was also a rape victim of Korbolo Dom and his camp. And she did give away her daughter to Barathol's village and thinks that's the best for all involved which shows that Erikson isn't saying Stonny has to take care of her child no matter how it was conceived
Well this is great. Now I'm going to have to change the name of this collaboration from Team Fantaballs to Tweed Titans. Trademark ruined. Thanks guys.
After a moment of thought I've calmed down and now I'm just glad poor A.P. is protected from the vicious fireballs of Dr. Fantasy. It was a mistake to teach him that spell!
Hearing AP's description of Fisher's telling of the Chain of Dogs makes me want to re-read The Deadhouse Gates to see if Fisher had any historical accounts of poems written at the beginning of the chapter's
Speaking of Fisher as playing a role in the storytelling... I got the impression from this book that Fisher and Duiker are the authors (within the diegesis in AP speak) of at least the first few volumes of the series. When Fisher approached Duiker to co author the Chain of Dogs in a more narrative style rather than a historical style, this feels like an agreement to write Deadhouse Gates. Then Duiker reveals to Scillara intimate familiarity with the events of Gardens of the Moon and Memories of Ice. At the tavern he hears the tale of much of what happens on Seven Cities throughout books 4 and 6. He may sit down to write his book about the Chain of Dogs and realize he has to broaden it out to be Deadhouse Gates as a whole, but that the book needs more context, therefore Gardens. Not sure if this interpretation is intended by Erikson or not and for all I know I'll resume the video and find out you already discussed it but that's how I read it.
the chapter breaks do exist in the diegesis. the poem that begins Book of the Fallen printed in Gardens talks about opening the old book (I read this as the old book being the book of the fallen). who is to say the old book referenced doesn't contain chapter breaks and epigraphs
The diegesis is the storyworld. So imagine Ganoes walking into Pale and the words 'Chapter 4' hanging in the air above his head that he can see and reach up and touch or interact with. That would be what existing in the diegesis means, things that exist in the world.
@@ACriticalDragon like yeah obviously not in the story the book is telling but isn't there an actual book of the fallen, which people in the storyworld can read, which itself may have chapter breaks and epigraphs? perhaps if my theory that it's written by Duiker and Fisher is correct, Duiker picked out the epigraphs and chapterized the narrative Fisher wrote?
This is where I talk about different levels. If you start with the epigraph poem as being a diegetic level, then Chapter One is the level below that, the hypo-diegetic level. So in the diegetic level the figure picks up an old tome which contains chapter headings. But we are not reading that book, for a start it is only one volume, we have ten books in front of us. But because the majority of the narrative falls in this hypo-diegetic level we can rename that the diegesis, and place the original level above it. External to the diegesis would be these inserts because they don't exist within the diegetic reality, they exist on a different level.
Loved that excerpt where SE seems to be writing to his readers. And I didn't remember it was Kadapsala on the cart while reading Forge/Fall. You said you don't read horror, but if you are up for some diagetic gymnastics, Barker's Mister B. Gone. The narrator is actually a demon who has been imprisoned in the book you are holding. So at times it is in first person and at others he is directly addressing the reader. The first line is 'Burn this book.' And it is only 250 pages.
Thank you for sharing this discussion. As seems to be the case for many other people, this book is so terribly difficult. I've read it twice, attempted a third, and each time around has, in one way or another, come at times of loss for myself. But I think you chose the perfect ending for this, with Caladan Brood's gesture. It hurts, but also uplifts. On a less serious note, are you dipping into some Donegal tweed here? And how far off are the Aran sweaters?
I developed a loathing of wool jumpers as a kid because they were so itchy. I am convinced that all wool jumpers are therefore like this, all evidence to the contrary be damned. 🤣🤣🤣 The emotion underlying this novel is one that continues to affect me, and it has been incredibly cathartic for me. As much as I wished that everyone would love this book as much as I do, no book can ever reach everyone. Have a brilliant Christmas.
Just finished this book earlier today. I think my favorite parts were the Kruppe narrations, he has been one of my favorite characters since Gardens of the Moon.
I think Stonny/Harllo added to the recurring theme of the, often unfair and disproportionate, burdens and expectations put on mothers that we saw previously with the Mhybe and Scilarra. I don’t think Karsa’s daughters arriving at the end was a coincidence in that regard.
Great discussion guys. Honestly I prefer listening to you guys talking about this book than actually reading it. Unfortunately, this is by far my least favorite Malazan book. It's just not my cup of tea, combine with very very slow pace. Also probably this book confused me the most compared to others. Im still glad I can understand it better with this discussion.
Hi Markus, I am glad that you enjoyed the discussion. Not every book is for every reader, and there is never a problem with not enjoying something that someone else enjoys, or vice versa. Thankfully we have a brilliantly diverse genre, with lots of different authors and narratives around, so the more the genre grows, the more we get to read. Personally, I love this book, but I am sure there are books that you love that don't fall within my taste or preference. So thank you for watching, thank you for commenting, and I wish you and yours the best of New Years.
Knowing Erikson we probably won't ever find out, but I kind of want all the answers and history around Fisher. I just love his character and these meta elements woven into the narrative. Same for Kruppe and The Crippled God, just who are they exactly? (Nor do I think we should get all the answers but it just tickles that part of your brain :D)
There is something wonderful (at least for me) in getting enough of a story and a character that I understand, but keeping some elements of mystery so that not everything is spelled out and my imagination can conjure up all sorts of theories and interpretations. Few things ruin the magic of literature for me than absolutely everything being completely pinned down and explained. All the very best to you.
I know this is old and you probbaly wont see it, but it dawned on me when you were talking about Challice mourning her innocence, it made me think of the initial scene with Crokus and Challice, way back in GOTM i think it is. But Crokus was the first to steal her innocence, he snuck into a young girls bedroom, where she was safe and innocent (niave yes, but innocent as found in a youth). He then gazes upon her sleeping and then attempts to steal from her. This is a very specific type of innocence that is violated. I just found that interesting with the culmination of her story in this book.
We may run into a correlation not causation issue with that one. 😉 But you might be on to something. We need a team of researchers, some lab coats, and some impressive looking scientific equipment that goes 'beep'.
@@ACriticalDragon Where can we get funding for the research and how can I skim some of it... uh... I mean, how can I be on the research team even though I have zero qualifications? Well, I actually have LOTS of qualifications, just not the right kind of qualifications.
A little feedback: I think the intro could be a smidge quieter ? Maybe thats just me. About the book: I read it a couple of months ago and already want a reread, its so dense and layered. But I will stay strong and finish my first read of all the malazan books in publication order, only 10 or so left ^^ PS: Kruppe is love, Kruppe is life !
Sorry about that. I recently had a load of updates on the computer and it may have scrambled some presets somewhere. I will start checking through things to see if there is a simple way to equalise the sound.
I just checked my version of this and the volume of the intro is in line with the volume of the discussion, or at least fairly close to it. There doesn't seem to be a huge discrepancy. I will do more digging, metaphorically of course.
@@kingplunger1 No worries at all. I would prefer if people tell me there is an issue. I think there is a way to run a sound equalising pass when I render the video, so I will try that with the next one I record and see if that makes a difference.
According to the audiobook Duiker is pronounced Dike-er. I believe that is correct even though I, too, HAD been pronouncing it do-ick-er, like you do. Small thing I realize, but just thought I'd mention it.
The narrator of the audiobook did not ask Erikson or Esslemont how they pronounced it. I tend to follow the authors in terms of pronunciation... at least sometimes 😁😁
@@ACriticalDragon I understand. It just reminded me of a baseball player from the past named Duane Kuiper and he pronounced it Kyp-er. No biggie. Love your podcasts. Nobody asked, but I would love to know who people think are the greatest comic and semi comic characters in Malazan. Two who come to mind quickly for me are..Kruppe (of course) and Tehol Beddict. I actually see a great similarity in the roles they play for their respective cities.
Honestly, it's the first book in the series that I've had serious trouble finishing. It seems that at times Erikson completely loses control of the narrative pulse and the story he is telling. It wastes a huge amount of pages introducing and developing new characters that go nowhere while, on the other hand, it doesn't bother to explain where other characters that are going to be very important come from, or why they do what they do, or because of what happens happens. It saves the book with 200 incredible final pages but in which half of the things that happen the reader does not know why they happen. It had to be especially hard for Spanish readers who had to wait more than ten years between the seventh and the eighth books. Fortunately, I am reading them often so without time to breathe I start "Dust of Dreams" with great enthusiasm but with some uncertainty... will Erikson successfully close his saga? Let's see!
Thanks for watching. It is really interesting that we can both have such radically different views of the same book. I never felt that Erikson lost control of anything in the story, and I was gripped by the whole novel, not just the end. For me, it is an incredibly impactful and emotional novel. I hope that you enjoy DoD and TCG more.
@@ACriticalDragon Yeah, I can understand. Just to clarify, I did not dislike the novel. It's not "the worst" book of the saga but the "least favorite". Yes, I think "least favorite" is the right choice of words. And, once again, thanks to you and Philip for the spoiler chat videos, for me they are an integral part of the experience of reading the saga as, once again, I'm reading it for first time,reading them one after the other without leaving a day of pause and running straight to you after the book ends. Thank you very much again.
I finished this novel yesterday and thought it was very very powerful. One thing I loved was that the final paragraphs and final lines before the epilogue are about Harllo. After all those epic, momentous events, Erikson brings it back to the small and personal with Harllo, and how his story with Stonny is actually very similar to that of the Andii with Mother Dark. That was masterfully done.
I greatly enjoyed your review.
@@ACriticalDragon Thanks for reading AP!
Little thing struck me as you were discussing the conversation between Duiker and Fisher. You're of course familiar with the 'camps' of writing methods, the architects and the gardeners.
I think Erikson used the two as examples of both methods - and their collaboration as a symbol for how he himself uses both methods.
'Duiker' is a word in Dutch which means 'diver', so we have a diver and a fisherman both of whom go into water to pull out treasure. But by very different means.
If we add in K'rul and Kruppe it becomes even more interesting , as we have a creator god who lives within his creation and a narrator /interpreter from within the creation who manages to rise above it.
Such a fantastic book, and an excellent exploration of the entire border between life and death in the choices we make, and the feelings that go along with that.
Great discussion, on to part 2.
Have a great Christmas AP. 😊
Rob, you need to be doing your own videos, these are great points.
Thank you.
All the very best to you and yours.
@@ACriticalDragon
Lol, no thanks. But thank you 😊
Thank you, A.P., for this discussion, which I found wonderful for helping me to process this sublime book. Also, please warn me in advance if you have any other awesome tweed jackets so I can hide my envy on camera.
It is always a pleasure to discuss literature with you, especially when I am sporting a tweed jacket to negate your professorial advantage.
@@ACriticalDragon aw, you two are so adorable!!! :)
Tweed the Houndstooth?
Brilliant discussion. I just finished this novel for the first time and had a hard time reconciling my thoughts. This helped me immensely. Thank you guys
Thank you for this heartfelt discussion on Toll the Hounds. Although themes of grief and rage are clearly present in this book, I had never before thought about how ALL the stages of grief exist in this book: grief, anger, denial, bargaining, depression, and acceptance. Each of these qualities are present in nuanced ways as well as a non-linear way, which is a misconception people have with the word ‘stages’ and idea that you cycle through and are done. I’m happy you two have each other as well! 🤍
HI Johanna, I am so happy that you enjoyed the video. Like Deadhouse Gates, this book really packs an emotional punch for me, but in a very different way. The complexity of grief, its deeply personal and often times contradictory manifestations, can be very difficult to express, discuss, and to process. I really appreciate how Erikson approaches this in this book.
I hope that you have a brilliant Christmas and New Year, all the very best to you.
@@ACriticalDragon Merry Christmas and Happy New year to you and your family!
I think this is a book that’s going to have a hell of a lot more resonance on a reread when I’m a bit older than my young 32 years. I think I was a bit impatient to get back to the faster paced military stuff of Bonehunters and Reaper’s Gale. Thanks for such a deep discussion, showing how other people might have their own personal resonances for something that didn’t have the same effect for me (just like your discussion at the end of other people at a funeral).
Hi Benjamin, personal responses for a text will have a lot to do with personal life experience in addition to the words on the page, and you are exactly right that our expectations for a novel can significantly impact the reading of it.
Happy New Year to you and yours.
This tweed thing is going out of hand, and it's hilarious!
Toll the Hounds getting so much attention brings me immense joy. What impresses me is the depth of your (and, of course, Erikson's) knowledge and understanding of the human psyche, and of grief. I know we all have our own personal experience with these emotions, and life spares no one of grief and loss, but you guys are putting into words emotions and thoughts I was and would never be able to. These are the perks of having two highly educated people discuss such delicate and complex feelings, I guess. :)
Caladan's reaction to Rake's loss is solemn and very emotional. I too felt it was a very healthy and beautiful way to say goodbye to a friend. He probably knew Rake like no one else did. That profound respect and care with which he took care of his friend's funeral moved me so much.
The many facets of loss and grief explored in Toll the Hounds make this book a very special one.
Thank you for this sublime video, and I am looking forward to the next ones
Thank you, Rox.
This book, and this topic, means a lot to me.
So I am very glad that you enjoyed the discussion.
Have a wonderful evening.
The Tweed Wars of 2021 will live forever in infamy.
AP, more than your comprehension, it’s your ability to channel the emotions to explain the story and context is why I come to hear your take on the series. Simple spectacular!
Thank you very much. I am so pleased that you enjoyed it.
Just finished last night and Kallor's story and his complete incomprehension to the willing sacrifice the Tiste Andii endure and endure. Kallor from how he has consistently achieved worshippers and followers based all on protection and relinquishing of freedoms for Kallor's protection seems not even too painful to reflect on the past and his losses, but also incomprehensible to him that loyalty outside fealty can endeavor to achieve what the Andii have done in their survival.
Also that grief sigil was added to the barrow and remembering back to anamader's sword's name!
So glad to see you discuss my favourite book of all time. The themes resonate so well with me and is something all humans can relate to. It helped me process and get through my grief in real life. The message wasn’t to make it disappear, but to learn and take the time to carry the weight of it, as it is always a part of you. I feel like grief is also used to explore catharsis, reconciliation and closure with Anomander Rake, and him saying goodbye. It’s so beautiful
Hi Cap, you eloquently express in a few lines what it took me paragraphs to say. Thank you for this. I am so pleased that this book helped you, I know that it served a very similar function for me.
I definitely needed the humour to help me through the grief explored in Toll the Hounds. TTH weaved together so many threads of grief and regret. Anyone who has gone through grief knows how important it is laugh sometimes, even if the laughter is bitter sweet. Gratitude for another great conversation 🙏.
Thank you, Francois. Merry Christmas to you.
as philip said, this book is sublime. a specific scene helped me process something i was going through, i was glad to hear you mention it.
something i thought was brilliant was the ox perspective. he's thinking about things an ox would be thinking about and he manages to be deep and kinda philosophical at the same time. it's genius :O
Hi Trip, the feedback is in and people like the intro, so I wanted to thank you publicly for it. Thank you so very much. Have a fantastic break.
PS. I liked the Ox PoV too. I thought it was an inspired choice.
@@ACriticalDragon the pleasure is all mine.
a fantastic break to you too!
January 1st. That's when I am starting Gardens of the Moon (a buddy read with Sarah, Baron and other people from Sarah Reads' discord!). I have already watched most of your discussions even if I have no idea what you're talking about, just because you guys are awesome and it also gives me some crumbs of information that maybe will help me focus and recognize some elements of the story ("Ah so this is why AP and Philip can't make a video on Malazan without saying the word 'compassion'"); but I'll save this one for later, when I reach Toll the Hounds later in 2022 (August ideally).
Best wishes with that buddy read! I’m looking forward to watching Sarah’s videos on Malazan.
Good luck with the read-through. I hope that you enjoy the books as much as I do. I look forward to hearing your perspectives as you read through the series.
Thank you for this wonderful discussion! I was walking down the street while listening to it, and I kept pretending I had something in my eye... Going through the book and being so invested in it, I totally missed some thematic elements that you guys pointed out!
PS. Absolutely adore that blue tweed!!!
Thank you for another wonderful discussion. I love Kruppe, so of course Toll the Hounds is one of my favourites. :)
I'm so glad you highlighted that Fisher-Duiker scene! I always slow down a bit when Fisher enters a scene, because I often feel he works as a sort of stand-in for Erikson. Very happy to hear you mention that! I've no idea if it's intended that way, but Fisher certainly says a lot of thematically impactful things whenever he shows up.
Thank you both so much for this long awaited video. It was worth the wait and as always it was very informative and enriching to my understanding of the book.
Thank you again for your efforts! 💙
You are very welcome, I am glad that you enjoyed it. Thank you very much for watching.
Dr. Fantasy said, "We have to talk about Murillio" and my brain said, "The hell we do! I'm not ready for that". It's been over a year now since I read the scene and I didn't realize how attached I was to him and all these characters. Thanks for all the work putting the video together and for showing me more angles to analyze books.
Will watch the video later, just wanted to say that chaur and young harrlo are some of my favorite if not my favorite characters to ever be put in page right up there with beak. Those arcs with chaur and harrlo in this book are just so beautifully done, really makes me feel like there are my friends to
I hope that you enjoy the discussion.
Harllo, Chaur, and Beak, are all wonderful characters that can certainly pull at the heart strings and wrench a great deal of emotion from us.
It is an enduring mystery and power of literature that these words on the page can create such vivid characters that suddenly we know and feel for them as real people.
Your discussion pertaining to grief reminded me of a podcast done by ‘The Whitehorse Inn’ years ago in which theologians discuss grief from the perspective of Job out of the Old Testament. It has stayed with me over the years, and every two to three years I’ll relisten to the episode. I will say that this was a tough read for me, but listening to you and Phillip gives me more appreciation for the themes of grief, forgiveness, and love explored in this book.
I am glad that the discussion helped. This book brought back a lot of very specific memories for me, so it is not an 'easy' read. Thanks for watching.
Would love to see you guys argue (woops I mean discuss) over a tier list for the main Malazan books when you're finished! Personally, I found TTH and DoD the hardest to get through and reminiscent of the infamous slog of mid-series Wheel of Time.
I will certainly have a think about it, but I am pretty unlikely to ever do a tier list. That isn't how I generally think about books. But I will discuss it with Philip and see what he thinks. Thanks for watching. I hope that you enjoyed the video.
Always a pleasure gentleman! I've been around for everything you're putting out, just haven't got much time these days to do more than leave a like. Keep it up you book-tube stars!
Hi Karl, leaving a like, leaving a comment, these are both very nice things for me to see, but the important thing is that you enjoyed the video and that it was worth your time. So thank you for watching.
Great video as always guys. I loved the scene breakdown; “an epic to crush the hearts of a thousand generations” is an apt description of Deadhouse Gates.
I am glad that you enjoyed it. Thanks for watching, and very happy holidays and a Merry Christmas to you.
Got my booster yesterday and FEELING it. Seeing this pop up made my day!
Glad to hear that you got the booster. I hope you have zero side effects and it is all smooth sailing. In the meantime, thanks for watching. I hope that you enjoy the video.
I had visited here in search of the Toll the Hounds discussion when I finished the book but the videos weren't ready then. I went on to finish the series and I've a host of content to gorge on now. Thank you so much! Can't appreciate enough the discussions you have. Toll the Hounds is probably my favourite in the series (though in this series it's all marginal), so I'm glad there are multiple videos for this.
Happy New Year too and looking forward to more!
Yaas! I've been waiting for this one, in fact I was in sync with you guys books wise until I finished this one and then had to finish the last two and get halfway through forge of darkness because it's all just that darn good. This has to be one of my favorite books in the series though.
The wait was all my fault. Life gets in the way sometimes and I threw Philip's brilliant scheduling out the window.
Thanks for waiting and I hope that you enjoyed it.
Thank you for the discussion. Toll the Hounds is beautifully written and one of the best books in the series.
You are very welcome. I am really glad that you liked the book. It is very special to me.
Have a great Christmas.
Looks like I have a fashion channel in my YT feed now.
Thankfully you're not just a pretty tweed
jacket.
Thank you for an enriching discussion!
Do I need to get a beret?
Have a fantastic break, and the very best to you and yours.
@@ACriticalDragon beret? Nah, too French. It also might prompt a certain somebody to wear his tiara. Maybe flat cap, to continue the tweed theme?
Have a woderful break as well and all the best to you and your family!
This was a wonderful discussion, thanks! I'm about halfway re-reading TtH, so i felt safe enough to watch this (although of course i can't be really spoiled having read this before).
That scene with Duiker and Fisher in the bar was just so good, i read it multiple times. It's fun and emotional at the same time and i think it's one of those parts that gets more significance on a reread (at least it is for me).
You are very welcome, thank you.
I am very glad that Philip mentioned the Duiker / Fisher scene.
It is a such a small scene, that can easily be overlooked because of the other events, and yet it goes to the heart of what the series is exploring, and has surprisingly powerful emotions running through it.
I hope that you are having a wonderful break.
Wonderful conversation! Kruppe is a very Dickensian creation. It gives TtH a strangely 19th-century feel. Looking forward to the next installment!
I shudder to think what Kruppe would do to a Dickensian London. I can just imagine the mayhem.
Thanks Johan, you have inspired a wonderful set of images in my head. Have a great day.
I read a Tale of Two Cities this year and can definitely see the strong similarities with that and Toll the Hounds
@@jameswitts3793 Thanks for the confirmation!
The story of Stonny & Harllo reminds me of Scillara who in a way was also a rape victim of Korbolo Dom and his camp. And she did give away her daughter to Barathol's village and thinks that's the best for all involved which shows that Erikson isn't saying Stonny has to take care of her child no matter how it was conceived
Well this is great. Now I'm going to have to change the name of this collaboration from Team Fantaballs to Tweed Titans. Trademark ruined. Thanks guys.
After a moment of thought I've calmed down and now I'm just glad poor A.P. is protected from the vicious fireballs of Dr. Fantasy. It was a mistake to teach him that spell!
Soon all of RUclips will embrace the Way of the Tweed. It is a hard path, but ultimately rewarding.
@@ACriticalDragon Now you need a pipe and a deer stalker and your victory is complete.
Nick, if you miss the 'd' on the end of tweed, it still works. 😂
Hearing AP's description of Fisher's telling of the Chain of Dogs makes me want to re-read The Deadhouse Gates to see if Fisher had any historical accounts of poems written at the beginning of the chapter's
Speaking of Fisher as playing a role in the storytelling... I got the impression from this book that Fisher and Duiker are the authors (within the diegesis in AP speak) of at least the first few volumes of the series. When Fisher approached Duiker to co author the Chain of Dogs in a more narrative style rather than a historical style, this feels like an agreement to write Deadhouse Gates.
Then Duiker reveals to Scillara intimate familiarity with the events of Gardens of the Moon and Memories of Ice.
At the tavern he hears the tale of much of what happens on Seven Cities throughout books 4 and 6.
He may sit down to write his book about the Chain of Dogs and realize he has to broaden it out to be Deadhouse Gates as a whole, but that the book needs more context, therefore Gardens.
Not sure if this interpretation is intended by Erikson or not and for all I know I'll resume the video and find out you already discussed it but that's how I read it.
the chapter breaks do exist in the diegesis. the poem that begins Book of the Fallen printed in Gardens talks about opening the old book (I read this as the old book being the book of the fallen). who is to say the old book referenced doesn't contain chapter breaks and epigraphs
The diegesis is the storyworld. So imagine Ganoes walking into Pale and the words 'Chapter 4' hanging in the air above his head that he can see and reach up and touch or interact with. That would be what existing in the diegesis means, things that exist in the world.
@@ACriticalDragon no for sure, but in this case isn't the actual book in the storyworld of the book?
@@ACriticalDragon like yeah obviously not in the story the book is telling but isn't there an actual book of the fallen, which people in the storyworld can read, which itself may have chapter breaks and epigraphs? perhaps if my theory that it's written by Duiker and Fisher is correct, Duiker picked out the epigraphs and chapterized the narrative Fisher wrote?
This is where I talk about different levels.
If you start with the epigraph poem as being a diegetic level, then Chapter One is the level below that, the hypo-diegetic level.
So in the diegetic level the figure picks up an old tome which contains chapter headings.
But we are not reading that book, for a start it is only one volume, we have ten books in front of us.
But because the majority of the narrative falls in this hypo-diegetic level we can rename that the diegesis, and place the original level above it.
External to the diegesis would be these inserts because they don't exist within the diegetic reality, they exist on a different level.
Loved that excerpt where SE seems to be writing to his readers.
And I didn't remember it was Kadapsala on the cart while reading Forge/Fall.
You said you don't read horror, but if you are up for some diagetic gymnastics, Barker's Mister B. Gone. The narrator is actually a demon who has been imprisoned in the book you are holding. So at times it is in first person and at others he is directly addressing the reader. The first line is 'Burn this book.' And it is only 250 pages.
I will keep an eye out for it. I used to read horror, but I was not a good fit for the genre. In general, not quite my preference.
Thank you for sharing this discussion. As seems to be the case for many other people, this book is so terribly difficult. I've read it twice, attempted a third, and each time around has, in one way or another, come at times of loss for myself. But I think you chose the perfect ending for this, with Caladan Brood's gesture. It hurts, but also uplifts.
On a less serious note, are you dipping into some Donegal tweed here? And how far off are the Aran sweaters?
I developed a loathing of wool jumpers as a kid because they were so itchy. I am convinced that all wool jumpers are therefore like this, all evidence to the contrary be damned. 🤣🤣🤣
The emotion underlying this novel is one that continues to affect me, and it has been incredibly cathartic for me. As much as I wished that everyone would love this book as much as I do, no book can ever reach everyone.
Have a brilliant Christmas.
Caladan Brood is one of my favorites
Just finished this book earlier today. I think my favorite parts were the Kruppe narrations, he has been one of my favorite characters since Gardens of the Moon.
This and Fall of Light are my favorite Erikson books, although I haven’t read The God is Not Willing yet.
Thanks for watching. Those are great books so I can completely understand your choice.
Good timing for me, I just finished TtH a couple days ago. 👍
I hope that you enjoyed the video, and that you enjoyed the book. Thanks for watching.
I think Stonny/Harllo added to the recurring theme of the, often unfair and disproportionate, burdens and expectations put on mothers that we saw previously with the Mhybe and Scilarra. I don’t think Karsa’s daughters arriving at the end was a coincidence in that regard.
Love this book
That is wonderful to hear. It is a very special book to me, and one I greatly love.
Great discussion guys. Honestly I prefer listening to you guys talking about this book than actually reading it. Unfortunately, this is by far my least favorite Malazan book. It's just not my cup of tea, combine with very very slow pace. Also probably this book confused me the most compared to others. Im still glad I can understand it better with this discussion.
Hi Markus, I am glad that you enjoyed the discussion. Not every book is for every reader, and there is never a problem with not enjoying something that someone else enjoys, or vice versa. Thankfully we have a brilliantly diverse genre, with lots of different authors and narratives around, so the more the genre grows, the more we get to read.
Personally, I love this book, but I am sure there are books that you love that don't fall within my taste or preference.
So thank you for watching, thank you for commenting, and I wish you and yours the best of New Years.
Knowing Erikson we probably won't ever find out, but I kind of want all the answers and history around Fisher. I just love his character and these meta elements woven into the narrative. Same for Kruppe and The Crippled God, just who are they exactly? (Nor do I think we should get all the answers but it just tickles that part of your brain :D)
There is something wonderful (at least for me) in getting enough of a story and a character that I understand, but keeping some elements of mystery so that not everything is spelled out and my imagination can conjure up all sorts of theories and interpretations. Few things ruin the magic of literature for me than absolutely everything being completely pinned down and explained.
All the very best to you.
I'm kind of glad I'm not reading the Big Book of Grief at the moment, two of my uncles have died in the past few weeks...
Paul, I am so sorry to hear that. You have my most sincere condolences.
@@ACriticalDragon Thanks AP.
Condolences Paul
@@MacScarfield Yeah, it's kind of shitty just before the holidays.
So sorry for your loss Paul. Please take care of yourself.
I know this is old and you probbaly wont see it, but it dawned on me when you were talking about Challice mourning her innocence, it made me think of the initial scene with Crokus and Challice, way back in GOTM i think it is. But Crokus was the first to steal her innocence, he snuck into a young girls bedroom, where she was safe and innocent (niave yes, but innocent as found in a youth). He then gazes upon her sleeping and then attempts to steal from her. This is a very specific type of innocence that is violated. I just found that interesting with the culmination of her story in this book.
Excellent point.
I'm curious to know if the people who dislike this book are the same people who also dislike Kruppe.
We may run into a correlation not causation issue with that one. 😉
But you might be on to something. We need a team of researchers, some lab coats, and some impressive looking scientific equipment that goes 'beep'.
@@ACriticalDragon Where can we get funding for the research and how can I skim some of it... uh... I mean, how can I be on the research team even though I have zero qualifications? Well, I actually have LOTS of qualifications, just not the right kind of qualifications.
You and me both. 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
A little feedback: I think the intro could be a smidge quieter ? Maybe thats just me. About the book: I read it a couple of months ago and already want a reread, its so dense and layered. But I will stay strong and finish my first read of all the malazan books in publication order, only 10 or so left ^^ PS: Kruppe is love, Kruppe is life !
Sorry about that. I recently had a load of updates on the computer and it may have scrambled some presets somewhere. I will start checking through things to see if there is a simple way to equalise the sound.
AP's intro goes to 11
I just checked my version of this and the volume of the intro is in line with the volume of the discussion, or at least fairly close to it. There doesn't seem to be a huge discrepancy. I will do more digging, metaphorically of course.
@@ACriticalDragon sry, if it was me imagining things, I didn't want to create extra work for you.
@@kingplunger1 No worries at all. I would prefer if people tell me there is an issue. I think there is a way to run a sound equalising pass when I render the video, so I will try that with the next one I record and see if that makes a difference.
According to the audiobook Duiker is pronounced Dike-er. I believe that is correct even though I, too, HAD been pronouncing it do-ick-er, like you do. Small thing I realize, but just thought I'd mention it.
The narrator of the audiobook did not ask Erikson or Esslemont how they pronounced it. I tend to follow the authors in terms of pronunciation... at least sometimes 😁😁
@@ACriticalDragon I understand. It just reminded me of a baseball player from the past named Duane Kuiper and he pronounced it Kyp-er. No biggie.
Love your podcasts.
Nobody asked, but I would love to know who people think are the greatest comic and semi comic characters in Malazan. Two who come to mind quickly for me are..Kruppe (of course) and Tehol Beddict. I actually see a great similarity in the roles they play for their respective cities.
I love Kruppe :)
Honestly, it's the first book in the series that I've had serious trouble finishing. It seems that at times Erikson completely loses control of the narrative pulse and the story he is telling. It wastes a huge amount of pages introducing and developing new characters that go nowhere while, on the other hand, it doesn't bother to explain where other characters that are going to be very important come from, or why they do what they do, or because of what happens happens. It saves the book with 200 incredible final pages but in which half of the things that happen the reader does not know why they happen. It had to be especially hard for Spanish readers who had to wait more than ten years between the seventh and the eighth books. Fortunately, I am reading them often so without time to breathe I start "Dust of Dreams" with great enthusiasm but with some uncertainty... will Erikson successfully close his saga? Let's see!
Thanks for watching.
It is really interesting that we can both have such radically different views of the same book. I never felt that Erikson lost control of anything in the story, and I was gripped by the whole novel, not just the end. For me, it is an incredibly impactful and emotional novel.
I hope that you enjoy DoD and TCG more.
@@ACriticalDragon Yeah, I can understand. Just to clarify, I did not dislike the novel. It's not "the worst" book of the saga but the "least favorite". Yes, I think "least favorite" is the right choice of words. And, once again, thanks to you and Philip for the spoiler chat videos, for me they are an integral part of the experience of reading the saga as, once again, I'm reading it for first time,reading them one after the other without leaving a day of pause and running straight to you after the book ends. Thank you very much again.
Banish all the poets for they can only present mimesis. Censor the poets for miseducating the youth and corrupting the notion of truth. /S
Come away, O human child!
To the waters and the wild
With a faery, hand in hand,
For the world's more full of weeping than you can understand.
Diegetic comment grrr
I have to throw a few diegetics in there to keep Philip happy.
@@ACriticalDragon Hehe has to be done, great video guys as usual and what a great book (even with Clip).
Far to late for Kallor. Dam you both. Another ten minutes.....
Merry Christmas.