Be the Bee # 53 | Venerating Icons
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- Опубликовано: 20 ноя 2014
- What are icons, and why are they important?
Best viewed in HD 1080p.
Connect with us at the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese's Department of Youth & Young Adult Ministries!
youth.goarch.org
Music:
"Cloud Patterns," by Silent Partner, RUclips Digital Library
"Magic Marker," by Silent Partner, RUclips Digital Library
End Theme:
"Noahs Stark," by krackatoa
freemusicarchive.org/music/kra...
Links:
Icons are Not Idols
www.ocf.net/icons-are-not-idols/
Seventh Ecumenical Council
www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfai...
Sunday of Orthodoxy
lent.goarch.org/prayers/restor...
Photo credits:
Theotokos Icon
commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...
St. Luke Painting First Icon
commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...
Bronze Serpent on the Pole
commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...
The Holy of Holies
commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...
Replica of the Ark of the Covenant
commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...
The Holy Bible
commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...
People Praying Before an Icon
commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...
Coin With Face of Emperor Leo III
commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...
Destroying Icons
commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...
Panaghia Portaitissa (Iveron, Mt Athos)
commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...
Simonopetra Monastery, Mount Athos
commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...
The White Tower, Thessaloniki
commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...
Map of Greece
commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...
Haghia Sophia, Thessaloniki
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ha...
Church With Bare Walls
commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...
St. John of Damascus
commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...
Icon of All Saints
commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...
Triumph of Orthodoxy Icon
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tr...
Christ Icon (cover)
www.flickr.com/photos/7895342...
Nativity Icon
www.flickr.com/photos/7130253...
Christ Icon
commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...
Sunrise
commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...
Nativity Icon
commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...
Holy Communion
www.flickr.com/photos/7884588...
Thanks for watching! God bless you!
#BeTheBee #Icons #OrthodoxChristianity
I agree ICONs are important with our Christian walk !
I truly enjoy all of the videos in the "Be the Bee" series! They are very informative and explain so much! Thank you for your dedication to this project and continued good works!
Oh my gosh thank you for this. I'm 26 and just getting into Orthodox Christianity after attending Protestant churches for the past 12 years. There's so much to learn and it can be so... different. I think the biggest struggle right now is that my Orthodox church has no other young adults. They're all over 40!
Question: During liturgy do I do anything? No one really tells me what I should do. All I was told was to follow along in the book. But do I just read along? Do I sing as well? Or is it just a spectator thing? And why all the singing??? Thanks for your answers!
Jorge Figueroa Thanks for watching!
Liturgy literally means "the work of the people," so we're always doing something. Our goal is to perfect ourselves, to be reconciled in love, and more fully offer ourselves and all things up to God.
On a more practical level yes, join your prayers to the Liturgy. The participation of the people is so important! Here's a great podcast that talks about the significance of a simply word like "Amen."
www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/spiritandtruth/amen
As for why we sign, it's because music communicates beauty in a way that the spoken word doesn't. So we sing our hymns, we even sing the Bible. Plus, it's a sign of our joy: we sing to God's glory!
***** Thanks for your answer! Singing along is going to be pretty awkward lol
Jorge Figueroa Don't worry, at least the saints and angels are singing with you!
there are parts in the liturgy that you actually do things, you will pray along in low voice the whole liturgy, but apart from that you will spell aloud the lord prayer ''our father in heaven hallowed be your name etc etc'', the symbol of belief ''I believe in one God Father Overlord creator of heaven and earth etc etc'',
when the priest comes out with the incense you bow low and wait till he goes forward breathing the perfume lightly, when the gospel comes out you lower your head and you turn at the direction the priest passes by while making the sign of the cross, the same you do when the honorable gifts pass by (the body and blood of christ soon to transform), when the priest calls ''yours from yours to you we offer in all and for all'' you bow low keep your palms united looking up as if begging and pray for your family members that passed away, then you pray for people you know that passed away and after them your family and relatives that are still in life, then you pray for people you know (like friends or even people who mistreated you).
You are doing this by saying the ''have mercy lord for the souls of your sleeping servants'' and then say in a row the names of the deceased and then you say ''and the souls of my living brothers and sisters and then you say their names starting from your family. This procedure begins with the priest's call ''yours from yours'' then the cantors chant the hymn to the mother of God *''Worthy it is beatify the Bearer of God the everblessed and everimmaculate and mother of our God, the more honorable than herubim and the glorier that seraphim the uncorruptible God Word birth giver, the truly God bearer you, we magnify''*
And it ends with the ''and those each (of us) has in mind and everyone and all.
Then begins the holy communion
@@Razamaniac yea you are full of Satan there.lot of hate , evil donnot have a clue what your talking about.
We were in Agia Sofia a couple months ago and we were so in awe that we did not notice the walls were not covered in icons. Also we have been worshiping in newer buildings that are still being adorned, US and suburb of Thessaloniki.
The iconoclastic Muslims covered them up. Hagia Sofia is now a mosque.
Gruss Gott from New Zealand. Thanks for the great lesson. Bless you Steve & Sister Vassa.
+Vaughan Lloyd Jones Thank you so much, may God bless you too!
Some here Thanks 🙏 from NZ
A very helpful video. I hope those iconoclasts will wake up one day. Thank you very much! ☦
Glory to God!! 🙏❤️
Amen!
Amen! ☦️❤️
I have read many comments pro and contra, which I totally understand (God created us rational beings). I am an Eastern Orthodox Christian and I have confronted myself over the time with orthodox dogmatic aspects as a result of studying history of religions(mainly Christianity) and the many denominations following the reformation therefore I understand the Protestantism view in the “aspects” mentioned in the video so I won’t hold my point on them as from my experience can lead to much controversy, all apart one - the purity and importance of accepting the Holy Mother as an extraordinary way of finding God Himself. This is for the sake of our Protestants brothers and why not, of the whole humanity. I strongly believe that the Scripture is the foundation of our creed, but after years of research and study I have realised that the mystery of our relation with God was not fully revealed to us through the Scriptures, , the rest is done through our communion with God by mystical experiences, through our hearts, dedication and persistence in prayer.(this is the reason why many agnostics or atheists read the Bible and still nothing changes within them). So now brings me to my point and allow me to speak from my personal experience, please and I say please for your sake do not refuse to call Theotokos in your prayers, just listen my advice and you can try to ask for her help in your darkest moments, when you will feel that there is no escape or you are going through your most desperate trials and believe me my brethren you will automatically be convinced of her virginity, immaculation and the true power given to her by her Son, the very God. The reason the four Gospels do not say too much about her is purely because her humility..she was the one assisting Luke in writing his Gospel and she is only sporadically mentioned in it, only because she wanted to be that way , as to experience her is beyond words. Please consider that I had no intentions to create a theological debate but to share from my personal experience...
Lmao no one responded to you loser
@@fortnitefred8403 There's no reason to insult people. Please don't do that.
I am new (3years) to the Orthodox Church through youtube.
We have no OC here, but I visited in Turkey on holiday for the first time an OC they blessed me with an icon.
I have seen a picture in dream of saints praying and pointing up to Jesus, that is very comforting.
@@briankristensen349 Ah, there's no parish near you?
@@stevenchristoforou1667
5 ours with bus and train and 5 ours back home and around 200+ dollars.
We have evangelical church and Lutheran church in our country.
I would like to find and invite an orthodox priest to visit and preach/teach in the church i attend!
Very helpful. Thank you
thank you for sharing your thought reminder veneration is also the memory of repentance veneration also means dulia ( wikepedia)
Such a helpful video!! Also does this man ever blink?
It was a new years resolution. :-)
Very informative video! :)
Very well structured video! It's amazing to me that people would oppose representing the TRUE heroes and heroines of the world!! :)
Thank U for this video.
Is that the class from St Demetrios Greek Orthodox Church in Elmhurst Illinois?!!
TheBowman333 Yes it is!
Na Se Kala!
Thank you for your great video! I have a question about praying to the saints as I'm interested in orthodoxy. If the saints are not omnipresent or omniscient, how would they hear your prayers?
Great question!
I'll ask another back at you: why would St Peter's shadow (Acts 5:15) or St Paul's handkerchiefs (Acts 19:12) heal the sick?
Steven Christoforou
I believe it's because both the people who were healed and the saints had faith in God's power for healing. However, Paul and Peter were present and alive not in heaven in these accounts. Beside the people didn't ask them for healing, they just had faith in God, so I'm not sure if Peter and Paul heard them. This is only how I understand the verses and would like to understand more.
The main struggle I have is if they are in heaven now and they haven't even touched the icons, how would they hear or heal people on earth?
You're hitting on something important here: God gives the healing. Not us, and certainly not our handkerchiefs.
Yet God works through His saints, and even through physical matter, as He wills.
God, who is everywhere present and filling all things, is limited by nothing. So He can take a mere shadow and turn it into an instrument of healing. Not because of anything in the shadow's nature: merely by His grace.
Of course, by our own power, saints can't hear the prayers of people. By their own power, the saints would sink into death and ultimately non-existence. They are only alive in Christ.
Christ unites us, even across time and space. Just like He turns mere shadows into instruments of healing.
PS A side note on faith. You wrote: "beside the people didn't ask them for healing, they just had faith in God..."
Note how may times Christ asks people what they want before He works a miracle. His grace is a gift, and He welcomes us to participate in this gift, even if all we can add is to ask/accept.
Does all that make sense?
Steven Christoforou
Thank you very much for your answer! Yes it makes sense! Also I found the account of the rich man and Lazarus in the Bible when the rich man called Abraham in heaven. It is in Luke 16: 19-36:
" The Rich Man and Lazarus
19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day.
20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores
21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22“The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.
24So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.
26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family,
28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
30 “ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ ”
Hi Steven do you have a video on orthodoxy and evangelism? For Protestants it’s pretty straight forward, share the gospel with others and tell them Jesus died for their sins and salvation is a free gift. How do orthodox evangelize? Or if they don’t why not ?
Great question!
Orthodox Christian do a lot of evangelism. This channel is just one example.
Unfortunately, different situations have made that difficult in recent years (the Ottoman occupation of Orthodox nations, communist control of Orthodox nations, etc). For a long time, major parts of the Church simply weren't free to share the Gospel.
Thank God, that's changing.
For more:
Be the Bee #73 | Mission for Christ
ruclips.net/video/_nkLcoeCEl0/видео.html
Be the Bee #85 | #BeTheSower
ruclips.net/video/7Pe6f8mnA1s/видео.html
God bless you!
Steven! I will be giving a short talk to a group of Catholic High school students about icons. This text is perfect. Says everything I would like to say, so well,and suscinctly. May I use it?! I won't have the luxury of being able to show the video, but just speak. Could I use the text? Do you have it written? Would be such a relief (less stress!)
Sounds like a great opportunity!
Email us, we'll get you a copy.
Thanks!
I really find your videos really helpful in understanding Orthodoxy Thank you for taking the time out to educate us. . Can l ask how do you know so much on Orthdoxy?
Important question!
I've been involved with different kinds of ministry (Sunday School, youth groups, young adult groups, etc) for many years. I've learned from a lot of people, and I've read a lot, too.
I graduated seminary in 2013. And for the past 3 years I've been Director of Youth and Young Adult Ministries for the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America.
Cuz he’s a nerd
@@fortnitefred8403 Guilty as charged.
so what is the proper way to venerate icons and which icons should we venerate
Good question! Though I'm not sure there's a "proper" way to venerate.
It's an opportunity to pray to the on depicted in the icon. If it's Jesus, we can ask for his mercy. If it's a saint, we can ask for their prayers and help. And we can give the icon a kiss: a kiss that we mean, reverently, for the one depicted.
Focus on developing a relationship with Christ and His saints.
God bless you!
Great explanation but this guy doesn’t blink. 😮
I have a question about prayer, do our prayers “influence” God to do something He otherwise would not have done? For example, if I pray for a loved ones health, is there a purpose in doing this? I know God doesn’t change, so why pray if he already has a plan? i’m confused at this, which seems like a paradox to me
Great question!
We certainly ask God for things. We bring Him our pain, and ask for His comfort.
But prayer isn't magic. We don't believe that we have any control over God.
In a deep sense, prayer is more about the state of our hearts: it's about opening our hearts to God as we draw closer to Him.
Does that make sense?
It's certainly a very mysterious thing, but one that is very beautiful.
Needs more of a classical or baroque music backing track.
Thanks for the feedback! Not really our style, to be honest. But we'll see what we can do.
My favorite icons by far are Coptic ones cause i think they’re cute. They make Christ and the saints look so cute haha
"Cute" is not a word I've ever heard used to describe an icon. Haha
However, coptics are oriental
...... 🇬🇷..... Ζητώ η Ελλάδα....... 🌷....... Ζητώ η Ορθοδοξία...... 🌺............... 🌷🌺........
+Andre Lefebvre. Are you saying every time St. Anthony fixes my eyes on something I've lost, weather it be keys, a tool, or my temper, I've woken him up? I didn't know that, thanks! Wow, I could never wake up that fast, but, oh, I'm sorry, guess I had a senior moment there, He is a Saint....... : )
Hey great content! Just wanted to share that perhaps you might want to consider attempting a video without the background music. You are great! You are enough (to me anyway).
Kind of you to say!
We've been messing with the audio balance over the years. The background music has become much softer over time.
@@stevenchristoforou1667 you look like you work at Baskin Robbins after your wife left you
@@fortnitefred8403 What?
What is the image at 3:44?
It's an icon of the Nativity (Christmas).
This one is better that the second you did a few days ago.More concise and clearly explained.
Actually, I they have different target> middle to high school level first, young adults to adults second.
Keep on doing this blessed work. I really enjoy these episodes.
The only thing I would change is the music (too loud) and the insertion of different sounds/images. I understand you are addressing young people, but they need to be used with the austere tone and majesty of the Orthodox liturgical life. The inserts and the inadequate music make it very easy going themes and greatly diminish the importance of contents.
Just a feedback.
Yeah, this episode was a bit more straightforward. The more recent video was weaving together the relevant Scripture for the Sunday of Orthodoxy. So it had more moving parts.
I think part of the lesson is finding God at work even in those easy going moments throughout our day, not only in the more obvious "churchy" moments. We can still brings our hearts to God even when we're laughing with our friends or just engaging in our everyday lives.
Thank you for this. I would like you to visit my Lectures on early Antiochene (Greek) theology. Though you may disagree on some points I believe that you would find them very interesting. I have been blessed to have early manuscripts in the family.
Stop self promoting no one asked
@@fortnitefred8403 Please be kind.
2:50, doesn't this look no different from a Bhuddist temple or a Shinto shrine rather than anything Christian?
Didn't the bronze serpent got crushed by a king in Kings and rightly done so by God?
Didn't the Hebrews later turn the bronze serpent from Moses into an idol?
Thanks for writing!
1. I'm not sure where you see the resemblance to a Buddhist temple or Shinto shrine. For more on what you'll find in a Christian church:
Be the Bee #113 | Six Minute Church Tour
ruclips.net/video/B-DXQ9ukZAU/видео.html
2. & 3. Hezekiah ordered the bronze serpent destroyed, yes. While God commanded Moses to make the serpent (and, in fact, when the people of Israel looked up it, they were protected from the serpents), people began misusing it. Remember that God commanded it for Israel's benefit: there was nothing inherently idolatrous about it.
The Christian Church looks very different for me than Buddhist and Shinto temple (I have been to both). The structure of the building, the style of art of the figures, candle types (Buddhist normally use joss sticks and incense, some 'food'), etc.
Also, Christianity believe in the Trinatarian, but Buddhism, Shintoism and Hinduism is more like a polytheist religion. Also, these 3 religions do not believe in the Creator God.
................ 🇬🇷........... Ορθοδοξία........ Ελλάδα.......... 🌺............
Hagia Sophia has icons mosaics but they were plastered by muslims. Roman Catholics also had taken all relics and icons when they sacked Constantinople before Turks.
This guy looks like he works at Baskin Robbins
Good joke fred
Thank you
@@fortnitefred8403 This confuses me.
@@stevenchristoforou1667 your very dumb
@@fortnitefred8403 Thanks for the reminder. I need to be more humble. God bless you!
Он же учитель наш
The word used for icons venartion in 7th cpuncil is proskyneo which is translated worship in english bibles.😑
A lot of English translations have been prepared by people who aren't familiar with the Church's theology.
@@stevenchristoforou1667 am i wrong.?
@@gamerjj777 No, you're not wrong in identifying that the word for veneration is mistranslated. I was offering an explanation for why that is.
@@stevenchristoforou1667 we see the word used only for God in new testemnt in revelation when john proskyneo in honur to angel he declined.
@@gamerjj777 and that's fine. It's important to understand the concept a word is trying to convey. The specific use of words changes and gets clarified over time.
The core idea is that worship is proper to God alone. But honor is different and isn't limited in the same way.
Colossians 1:5
For Christ IS THE Image
Icons are Not " idols".
They are windows into the Heavenly Kingdom, Where God reigns.
Worship is not given to paint and wood, but passes to the Prototype, Jesus Christ.
Icons are not painted nor drawn.
Christ is Logos ( Eternal Word)
A word is Written, not painted.
Exactly
Still don´t get it. Is this panentheism?
No, not at all.
What makes you think that? Sorry if anything wasn't clear.
@@stevenchristoforou1667 Well, bowing to an image because in and through it God is somehow present brought me to the conclusion that the orthodox pray to the God who is in matter. And that is panentheism.
@@opfipip3711 That's not pantheism.
The Scripture tells us that God reveals Himself in His creation. For example, "The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament shows His handiwork." (Psalm 19:1)
It's not that God *is* the heavens. Or that God *is* His creation. (That would be pantheism.)
Rather, the creation reveals Him and points back to Him.
That said, there is a unique revelation of God in the Incarnation: the Son of God (who is the perfect icon of the Father, the image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15)) took on flesh. The human hands of Christ literally are the hands of the Son of God.
And because the Son of God has taken on flesh, we can depict Him. When we look at an image of Christ we engage, not with the matter of the icon, but with the One who is being depicted.
If I kiss a picture of my family member, I'm not merely kissing a photo: I'm reaching out to engage with the person of my family member.
@@stevenchristoforou1667 Thank you for your answer. A few points:
1. I was not talking about Pantheism, but about PanENtheism. This is a big difference. PanENtheism according to wikipedia is defined like this:
"Panentheism (meaning "all-in-God", from the Greek πᾶν pân, "all", ἐν en, "in" and Θεός Theós, "God")[1] is the belief that the divine pervades and interpenetrates every part of the universe and also extends beyond space and time." And this is what my understanding is about what you are saying: You can approach God through and in a man made picture.
2. I also believe that Jesus Christ is true man and true God, the image of the invisible God
3. But Christ is no longer visible for us because he is now sitting at the right hand of the father. Yes, we can experience his presence in the Eucharist and any time in our daily life. And we can "see" him in other humans. This is not always happening but it occurs from time to time. But we live by faith and not by sight.
4. But what I don´t get is this "jump" from Christ revealing himself in our live to him revealing to us by venerating a picture of him. I can not see that in my bible or in the practice of the New Testament Church. What I can see is that symbols or art can remember us to Christ or help us to concentrate like a candle but not to be a kind of sacramental encounter with him personally.
5. Paul is saying: "Wherefore we henceforth know no man after the flesh: even though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now we know him so no more." (2. Cor. 5,16) That in my understanding means that the human appearance is not important. The bible does not give us any description about how Jesus looked like. Therefore it was not important. Important is to know his character, to let Christ in us shine etc.
Having said this I am still in a "question-mode". I simply don´t get this whole concept of iconography. I found some theological points of orthodoxy very compelling. So I was asking myself whether I should consider becoming an orthodox. But iconography would be a big stumbling block for me.
I am from Germany so my English is not faultless.
@@opfipip3711 Oh! I'm sorry, I misread your first post.
No created exists on its own. All created things owe their existence to God; and only continue to exist because of their connection to God. God may not be "in" all things, in the sense of panentheism, but all things depend on Him to be.
Two things on icons:
1. We have found iconography in synagogues. We have found iconography in the earliest Christian home churches. This was a part of the life of the Church from the very beginning.
2. Icons aren't about history: they don't depict Jesus as He looked. That's also why icons have always been stylized, not perfectly realistic. They are representations of the eternal reality of the Kingdom. They are ways we can pray to, and engage with, Jesus as He is.
The Holy Spirit is our comforter. Invite the Holy Spirit to reside in you and you will know the difference. All things that exalt itself against the knowledge of God will be cast down. Keep searching if you reject the Holy Spirit. Ask and you shall receive, ask to be baptized in the Holy Spirit and with fire. You will Speak in tongues.
Could you explain what you mean by "speaking in tongues?"
Before iconoclasm there were opposition to icons.
I'm not sure what you're referring to in particular.
Major opposition to icons seem to coincide with the rise of Islam (which is also very iconoclastic).
Elvira canon 36. Icons are not to be placed in churches, so that they do not become objects of worship and adoration.
Ephipanus of salamis
9. Moreover, I have heard that certain persons have this grievance against me: When I accompanied you to the holy place called Bethel, there to join you in celebrating the Collect, after the use of the Church, I came to a villa called Anablatha and, as I was passing, saw a lamp burning there. Asking what place it was, and learning it to be a church, I went in to pray, and found there a curtain hanging on the doors of the said church, dyed and embroidered. It bore an image either of Christ or of one of the saints; I do not rightly remember whose the image was. Seeing this, and being loth that an image of a man should be hung up in Christ's church contrary to the teaching of the Scriptures, I tore it asunder and advised the custodians of the place to use it as a winding sheet for some poor person.
Eusebius letter to caesarea
@@gamerjj777 RUclips isn't letting me paste the link, but there's a response in an article called "Is There Really a Patristic Critique of Icons? (Part 3 of 5)"
RUclips isn't letting me post the link.
@@stevenchristoforou1667 k.
But i dont know any church father before the fourth century who knew *veneration* of icons
@@gamerjj777 Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Archaeological evidence shows icons in both Christian home churches and Jewish synagogues (see Dura Europa, for example) in the 3rd century. And the Church remembers St Luke the Evangelist as a painter of icons.
does he ever blink???
+Mark Frost Something fishy here.......
Not once in 35 years. Impressive, actually.
I am orirntal orthodox
God bless you!
It seems like there is a very very thin line of differences between icons and idolatry....actually I cant see it.
Say more about what you mean.
As we cover in the video:
1. There's a difference between having an image and worshipping an image.
2. God Himself commanded the creation of images multiple times.
3. As we see in Scripture, it's possible to have an image without falling into idolatry.
Steven Christoforou
Yes I understand that having a picture or Jesus is not worshiping it, But to kneel and kiss it is something else. That's is worshiping.
2 yes God did say to make images like the arch and the bronze snake but He does say and explain why He said to make them.
And 3 people have done the exact opposite, they started worshiping the object because long ago it was something of sing man and God put there to remember on oath or something like that. Please explain why orthodox put this wall of symbolism in front or actually worshiping God in spirit and truth?
1. Do I worship my grandmother when I kiss her hand? When I kneel at her feet to listen to her tell a story?
Worship is about sacrifice. Each and every time we see worship in the Old Testament an altar and sacrifice is involved. Worship is not simply prayer or honor.
2. I don't understand this point about the bronze serpent. Is the point that God never said to make icons, unlike the bronze serpent?
Are we only supposed to do things that God explicitly said to do? How far do we take this point?
3. It's not about putting up an walls. You're misunderstanding Christ's words about worshipping in spirit and truth.
Did Christ contradict Himself when He told His followers to literally baptize people (in physical water)? To literally eat His flesh and drink His blood?
Did St James contradict the Lord when he told Christians to anoint the sick with oil (James 5:14)?
This video may help you understand what symbolism actually means, and how the physical and spiritual relate to each other:
ruclips.net/video/ELiLlFVsLCs/видео.html
yes you are worshiping her in a way
the anointing with oil was most likely a medical or hygienic reason also the oil was not important but the prayer of faith was.
Also anointing oil was a way appoint someone for a task at hand. The oil has no power.
And yes if God tell you to do something you do it, this is very simple, I don't understand why would you question God if he asks you to do something?
- I am not misunderstanding the worship in spirit and truth verse… tell me. if I were locked in prison and did not have an icon or prayer bracelet or a manuscript or anything you would use to worship God... but I pray on my knees in my spirit with my mind am I worshiping God and will He here my prayer?
- The practice of baptism came before Jesus and it was to be a public sign for the non-believers that you would follow whom you testified and believe that you have died to your old self and the eating of the flesh and blood was a public sign for the believers, the church testifying that you are still in the new body of which the resurrection of Jesus gave you.
Now the traditions of when to take communion and what kind of bread or wine or juice etc. is all traditions made by man not God they are irrelevant. The worshiping in the spirit and truth is the important part in this activity of remembrance, this is my argument of worship in Spirit and Truth.
Romans 6:3-4 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
I like the video you sent me, it is true.
1. Again, you're misunderstanding worship.
2. "The anointing with oil was most likely a medical or hygienic reason."
Based on what? This is speculation that contradicts both the text itself and the continued practice of Christians.
3. "The oil has no power."
Did Paul's handkerchief have power (Acts 19:12)? Yes and no. On the one hand, people were clearly healed through it. In a deeper sense, this power didn't originate in the handkerchief: "God did extraordinary miracles through Paul..." (Acts 19:11). The same goes for holy oil, the waters of baptism, etc.
4. "I am not misunderstanding the worship in spirit and truth verse.… tell me. if I were locked in prison and did not have an icon..."
You are misunderstand the verse, as is evidenced by your question. Of course you can pray to God when you're by yourself, without an icon or whatever. Of course God will hear your prayer.
Worship is a more tricky question, since the Church doesn't see worship as an individual act.
5. "The practice of baptism came before Jesus..."
Look at Acts 19. Paul clearly draws a distinction between the baptism of John and the baptism of the Church. He baptized those who only experienced the baptism of John.
The baptism of the Church is something new and unique, and it's right there in Scripture.
6. "The eating of the flesh and blood was a public sign for the believers..."
No. Again, look at the Scripture and how Christians actually understood Holy Communion from the beginning. It's a reality, not a mere public witness.
"The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a sharing in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a sharing in the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 10:15-16)
7. "The worshiping in the spirit and truth is the important part in this activity of remembrance, this is my argument of worship in Spirit and Truth."
Again, you're drawing a distinction between the visible and the invisible which neither Jesus nor the Church would draw. Water baptism isn't separate than spiritual regeneration and new life in Christ. Holy oil isn't separate from physical or spiritual healing. Holy Communion isn't separate from worship in Spirit and Truth.
Because we worship, not in abstract "spirit" in the sense of things invisible, but in the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit prays in and through us.
"Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you?" (1 Corinthians 3:16)
"Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we ought, but that very Spirit intercedes with sighs too deep for words." (Romans 8:26)
There is no need for icons... Thats it. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed. Jesus.
1. Yes, you don't "need" icons in the strictest sense. There are certainly saints who managed without icons, when they were locked up in jail or other places. The deeper issue is why we reject them when we have access to them.
2. I'm not sure that verse applies in this context.
I'd love to know how the orthodox church see homosexuality
What do you mean exactly? And why do you ask?
@@stevenchristoforou1667
I mean does the church accept lgbt members?
I know that orthodox Christians do not approve equal marriage right
@@stevenchristoforou1667
I think we should talk about this topic.
I'm an orthodoxy from middle east who identify as gay and an active member of the church.
I'm not very likeable among my church family but I'm a strong believer of Christ and his church.
@@alooshosman1928 Everyone is welcome in the Church. There are a lot of very faithful people who identify as gay. The question is not how we identify but how we serve Christ and grow as Christians.
You're right, the Church will never bless same-sex marriages. This can be a difficult thing for people with same sex attraction. As Christians, we need to love each other and support each other on the path to holiness.
And yet No one asks that of Islam. Why is that? …Im not really asking.
I'm a orthodox christian. I love my religion, but I do what GOD says in the bible. So I don't believe or worship icons, only GOD. You can't paint Him or saints, angels just for make the church much beautiful. It is a sin in my opinion. People should do first of all what Bible Says.
Of course we should follow God and do what He says.
In Luke 24, we read about the way Jesus opened up the Scripture to His disciples. They didn't understand the Bible without His instruction.
In Acts 8 we read about the Ethiopian eunuch who realized that he didn't understand Scripture (and asked Philip to help him understand what he was reading).
You say that we shouldn't worship icons. Which is true. But Orthodox Christians don't worship icons.
Just like you're misunderstanding what icons are, I suggest you're misunderstanding Scripture if you believe icons are someone not allowed.
Then *YOU* are not an Orthodox. because true Orthodox Christians venerate icons, and worship God WITH Icons as their MEDIUM. they don't WORSHIP icons. You need to rewatch this video and get a better meaning of it.
@Tweed Penguin Have you ever asked another person for help? Have you ever accepted help from another person?
1. The second commandment (Ex. 20:4ff) is the only commandment that explicitly describes what is prohibited: making an image and bowing to it. Doing that very thing but claiming the images are not really idols but "icons" and the bowing isn't really worship but "veneration" is not convincing.
2. Canon 36 of the Council of Elvira states, “Pictures are not to be placed in churches, so that they do not become objects of worship and adoration.”
3. Origin (184-254) responded to Celsus by admitting that Christians used no images; he mocked the notion that images were helpful in worship, and, citing the Second Commandment wrote, “It is in consideration of these and many other such commands, that they [Christians] not only avoid temples, altars, and images, but are ready to suffer death when it is necessary, rather than debase by any such impiety the conception which they have of the Most High God.” (Origin, Contra Celsus, Book VII, Chapter 64.)
4. Eusebius (c. AD 263 - 339) wrote that even the incarnate Christ cannot appear in an image, for
"the flesh which He put on for our sake … was mingled with the glory of His divinity so that the mortal part was swallowed up by Life. . . . This was the splendor that Christ revealed in the transfiguration and which cannot be captured in human art. To depict purely the human form of Christ before its transformation, on the other hand, is to break the commandment of God and to fall into pagan error."
5. Epiphanius (inter 310-320 - 403): "I went in to pray, and found there a curtain hanging on the doors of the said church, dyed and embroidered. It bore an image either of Christ or of one of the saints; I do not rightly remember whose the image was. Seeing this, and being loath that an image of a man should be hung up in Christ's church contrary to the teaching of the Scriptures, I tore it asunder and advised the custodians of the place to use it as a winding sheet for some poor person."
He goes on to tell John that such images are “contrary to our religion” and to instruct the presbyter of the church that such images are “an occasion of offense.” (Epiphanius, Letter 51, chapter 9).
6. Hence we see that the "Orthodox" church radically broke away from the tradition of the early church.
1. The Church doesn't merely "claim" that icons are distinct from idols. Nor do we simply "claim" a distinction between worship and veneration. It's demonstrated at length by theologians like Basil and John of Damascus.
If that's not convincing to you, fine, but don't be so glib.
2. The Council of Elvira was a local council and never accepted by the universal Church, so I'm not sure why you quote it.
You also need to understand that canons are prudential applications of theology. Assuming the canon is authentic (which some dispute), it may have been an attempt to
I'm also not sure the translation you quote is a good one. Here's the text on Wikipedia, for example:
"It has seemed good that images should not be in churches so that what is venerated and worshiped not be painted on the walls."
Note that this does not state that icons cannot be venerate, merely that the practice (in that area of the Church) should be suspended.
3. Origin is not a Church Father. He said lots of theologicall dubious things, so be careful about quoting him.
He even castrated himself because of his wrongheaded ideas about the place of physical matter in the Church. You can see how physical icons would bother someone who was so ambivalent about the incarnation and "non spiritual" things.
4. Eusebius also was not a Church Father because of his heretical views. The passage you cite contains the heresey of Euthychianism. The Church maintains that Jesus is both fully God and full man, and that this is how humanity is saved. Euthychianism is another heresy that is uncomfortable with matter and argues against our salvation.
5. Church Fathers uniformly reject that Epiphanius ever said any such thing. And that, even if he did, he was wrong to do so.
For more:
blogs.ancientfaith.com/orthodoxyandheterodoxy/2013/05/22/is-there-really-a-patristic-critique-of-icons-part-4-of-5/
6. No, the Orthodox Church hasn't broken from the early Church. You're quoting errors that developed later in the life of the Church, and were unambiguously rejected.
You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments. (Exodus 20:4-6)
You, you shall not worship or serve idols.
But we don't worship or serve icons. Because they're not idols.
As we presented in the video, there are several examples of physical things in the Scripture (from the depictions of the cherubim to the bronze serpent) that are not idols yet serve some spiritual purpose.
Steven Christoforou You shall not make for yourself an idol, OR ANY LIKENESS OF WHAT IS IN HEAVEN ABOVE OR ON THE EARTH BENEATH OR IN THE WATER UNDER THE EARTH. Isn't clear what I wrote upside? He tells us not only we don't should worship icons but also, don't paint or create something that we believe that it is in Heaven. I don't misunderstood nothing, but maybe a lot of more who thinks they are faithfull, people who kiss icons, pray and look straight to the icons, poeple who say icons did miracles, etc... You know that there were no icons for the first 787 years after Christ? Until the second Council of Nicaea? How about that? Just tell me. So people until that moment had no faith in God? Come on...
Steven Christoforou The cheburims and the serpent are only some exceptions who were been done by some prople who choosed God. When Jesus prayed, He didn't prayed in front of some icons. Let's be serious. Also, tell me about Cesare Borgia's story if you know something. They said that the pope (his father) choosed him (Cesare Borgia) as the image of our Lord Jesus Christ on the icons that are made even today with Borgia's aspect. Now think about this: the ignorant people keep praying looking to the icons and believe Jesus Christ looks like him. This is pure blasphemy.
@@louieanderson2847 Ok, let's be serious.
1. You quoted the Second Commandment: "You shall not make for yourself an idol, OR ANY LIKENESS OF WHAT IS IN HEAVEN ABOVE OR ON THE EARTH BENEATH OR IN THE WATER UNDER THE EARTH."
Do you take photographs of loved ones? If so, have you committed idolatry?
2. You say: "You know that there were no icons for the first 787 years after Christ?" But this isn't true.
We know that Judaism made many changes in the centuries after Christ, in order to distance itself from Christianity. Iconography was a part of the Jewish tradition, and was stripped away in later years. We have architectural evidence of this:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dura-Europos_synagogue
3. You observe that: "When Jesus prayed, He didn't prayed in front of some icons."
Of course. But I'm not saying that icons are necessary: that you're somehow doing something wrong if you pray without icons.
I'm saying the opposite. Icons are not idols. And they can actually be helpful in our prayer life. But it's certainly possible to pray without them.
Steven Christoforou Ok Steven. The point is you have to explain all of these things to a lot of people. I say this because most of people misunderstood icons and statues (in case of catholics) and venerate them like venerate God (for example:Virgin Mary of Medjugorje).
whether Christians should use icons when worshiping and praying ?
Before that. Lets we go back to the era of Old Testament people
We can see that the good Israelites in the Old Testament never pray using icons.
The Israelites at that time never saw the image of God, God had not yet reincarnated, so they never had the image of God and the image of God incarnate
So Moses, Elijah, David, Solomon never had the image of God, never imagined God's form but they could worship God
The prohibition of imagining God's form when praying is true by Ezekiel: 14: 7
Ezekiel 14: 7
For every one of the house of Israel, or of the stranger that sojourneth in Israel, which separateth himself from me, and setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to a prophet to inquire of him concerning me; I the LORD will answer him by myself.
How can they worship God if they have never had the image of God, never imagined God's form?
They can not use icons in worshiping God but they worship God with their hearts. Feel the relationship with God with their hearts not with their eyes and their mind (imagination).
Feel God with this heart can not be taught by parents or priest but comes from their instincts that come from the knowledge of the spirits that exist in every human being when they are born into the world including the atheist child and you yourself have this ability in the past when you were a baby / child before influenced by the doctrine of icon veneration.
The ability to communicate with God in prayer that can not be taught is like when people feel sad, angry, happy, afraid. That is a feeling that their parents never taught but they understand and never mistaken when feeling the feeling.
Similarly when we feel God in our hearts, that this feeling will not lead to another entity but to God itself
What about when Jesus has come to earth?
Jesus said true worship in John 4: 23-24
John 4: 23-24
4:23 But a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father is seeking such as these to worship Him.
4:24 God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth.”
From this verse, it is clear that Jesus never taught praying through icons but praying spiritually means that we do not need physical media while praying but we use our hearts when we pray because what the heart feels comes from the spirit. When we pray with the heart actually our spirit who is praying
When praying through icons, actually we do not obey Jesus' command because we pray in physically without spirit.
Here we see the word spirit, where this spirit is invisible and can not perceived by our five senses.
So worshiping in spirit means that when we worship and pray to God, we do not imagine a physical figure like imagining God like an old man whose hair is white or also imagining the figure of Jesus as depicted in books and articles such as a man from the Israelites with the cloaked mustache and beard, because it is only the human imagination and the face of Jesus described differently even though it all refers to an Israelites man with the cloaked, moustache, bearded.
Because the figure of Jesus in physic is not the nature of Jesus but the incarnation of God like a servant, and being the same as man for the saving purpose of man . Jesus nature as spirit can be seen from Philippians 2: 5-8, John 1: 1-14, John 8:58, Colossians 1: 15-22
So When worshiping Jesus through icons we actually worship these icons, do not worship Jesus.
What about the apostles?
They never use icons when worshiping and praying because they are Jews who never use pictures when praying. And this is maintained by Jesus, but now we do not need the prayer direction anymore.
Acts 17:16. While Paul was waiting for them in Athens, it was very upset that he saw that the city was full of idols.
Peter and Paul never used icons when praying, never venerated icons.
Do I hate icons?
No, because in the temple of Solomon there are pictures and statues, Moses made a snake statue. But all of them are not worshiped and venerated which is the excessive honor like worshiping God.
I do not hate icon but I reject venerated icon while we worship because it is the excessive honor like worshiping God although we do not mean to worship icon.
Venerated icon is danger because it cause our spriritual dead and heart dead (conscience dead).
Lets we think about it. I hope you understand my writing.
Christ is Risen!
Thanks for your comment. A few notes for you:
1. Notice that, in the Old Testament, idolatry is prohibited. Not icons. As we show in the video, God uses physical things multiple times to help people come close to Him (the bronze serpent, the decorations in the Temple, etc.).
2. The nature of Jesus is not simply spirit. He is both fully divine and fully human. Jesus didn't simply appear to be a human: He is a human. He resurrected with His Body, and ascended into Heaven with His Body.
To kiss the feet of Jesus is to kiss the feet of divinity.
He is material, and can be depicted by material things like icons.
3. We don't worship icons. Worship is for God alone.
However, we can venerate icons (give them special honor as sacred objects). And that honor passes back to the "prototype," to the one who is the source of that holiness: God Himself.
1. I know there are icon in King Solomon temple, Moses build serpent statue. But they are never be worshiped and venerated. I do not hate icon. I appreciate icon but never venerated them. Corection : The bronze serpent, the decorations in the Temple not represent God image.
2. Before incarnation logos whose part of God Trinity is spirit After logos incarnated to be flesh named Jesus. Its true, Jesus fully human and fully God .
Nature Jesus is spirit. I mean logos before incarnated to be flesh in body Jesus Christ.
John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
----> Jesus who is logos before incarnated to be human.
What your opinion about verse
John4:24 God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth.”
My opinion : I think we are still forbidden imagine God when we worship God included Jesus Christ through statue, icon, imagination God form in our mind but only with our heart which actually we worship in our spirit our soul.
3. I think we cannot replace Jesus command to worship God in spirit which mean worship God with our heart which derive from the spirits with icon.
Last questions to ponder
Romans 9:1 I speak the truth in Christ; I am not lying, as confirmed by my conscience in the Holy Spirit.
Have you ever felt the conscience as Paul felt ?
Jesus teach us to worship and pray with our heart
Matthew 15:8 These people honor Me with their lips, but their hearts are far from Me.
Have you ever practiced it ?
I do not want to trouble you, just to remind you because we are brothers in Jesus Christ
1. Again, there's a difference between worship and veneration.
2. As for John 4:24, remember the context. Jesus was speaking to the Samaritan Woman. Jews and Samaritans disagreed about where to worship: Mt Zion or Mt Gerisim. Both were missing the point.
3. If Jesus wants us to worship God *only* in spirit, why did He tell us to baptize new believers? Why did He tell us to physically eat Holy Communion?
- Are Jesus and apostles teach us and practice to worship and pray with icon as media?
- Are Jesus and apostles teach us and practice to venerate icon?
I have no problem when you kneeling in your prayer or even prostation when you prayer like muslim. Its OK to be baptize and eat Holy Communion. . I know when you pray with icon like Jesus icon, you pray to Jesus not worship icon. But pray use icon I think its never taught by Jesus and apostles.
Yes! In fact, the first Christian iconographer was Luke the Evangelist.
Plus, early Jewish synagogues were adorned with icons (though, because they do not believe in the incarnation, the underlying theology is different). That practice faded away as Judaism tried to distinguish itself from the growing Church.
I think this raises the question: how do you know what Jesus and the early Church did and believed? If your answer is the Scripture, then I have two more questions for you:
1. Where does the Scripture tell us that it is a complete or exhaustive account of everything Jesus did, or that we need to believe?
2. Who do you trust for your canon, version, translation, etc (Catholics and Protestants both accept different books than the Orthodox Church, different versions omit or include different verses, different translations present a different meaning, etc)?
Why do the Catholic's and Orthodox fight so hard to perpetuate the perpetual virginity/immaculate conception of Mary? That, along with prayers to the saints and icons. I just don't see how these beliefs and practices are worth the criticisms and baggage that they bring. There's enough to defend (by way of biblical beliefs) without these things. Why clutter the landscape with items that aren't integral to the day to day life of a believer?
By way of sanctification...removing these things doesn't make a lick of difference. And the fact that these beliefs and practices are nowhere to be found in the Ante-Nicene Fathers (those who lived closest to the time of the apostles) is very telling. These things were developed and added over time. Considering similar practices can be found in the surrounding non-Christian culture that the early church was incubated in... It seems like they adapted tenants from paganism so as to accomadate and attract the unbelieving world. This is the equivalent of accepting gay marriage so as to attract the world. This may not be the case, but as an avid reader of history, this DOES seem to be the case. Regardless, this is how it looks to protestants. I believe these are valid concerns.
Becoming the world...to attract the world is an oxymoron that's counter productive. In modern times protestantism has perfected it, but in many cases, the Catholics and Orthodox invented it.
If these things could be found in the works of Clement, Justin Martyr, Ignatius, Irenaus and Polycarp...I'd be convinced that they're extra-biblical (but yet biblical) traditions that the apostles taught (but for some reason didn't end up in scripture).
If the orthodox dropped these beliefs and practices, I'd immediately convert. I just don't see how these things are integral to the core and foundation of the Christian experience. Plus, they just simply cannot be backed up by scripture (which immediately makes the Catholic and orthodox church a target to be INSTANTLY dismissed by protestants). It's not as if these things are likened unto issues such as the divinity of Christ, the bodily resurrection and baptism (all things worth contending for). To fight for them as if they are brick and mortar tenants that serve as the cornerstone to Christianity just BEGS for suspicion from protestants. This is largely due to the fact that similar beliefs and practices can be traced back to ancient paganism. Both the Catholic and orthodox church place themselves in a position to be criticized.
I'm all for contending for the tenants of scripture...but you'd never come to these conclusions without the necessity of church tradition...a tradition that first appeared HUNDREDS of years after the lives of the apostles and the church fathers who knew them personally. This is a major red flag to me. It gives me a vast amount of pause. I understand (and agree) with the idea of purporting church traditions (that don't directly appear in scripture) but the preoccupation with Mary, iconography, and prayers to the saints seems SO out of place with ANYTHING biblical. Thus the reason it's a red flag to protestants.
Accepting the Catholic and orthodox traditions require more faith than believing on the Lord Jesus Christ unto salvation.
This is such a shame. I absolutely adore MANY (if not most) of what the Orthodox church teaches AND practices. The Philokalia is worth its weight in gold...as is the writings of St. Theophan and many others. I've NEVER encountered such profound spiritual truths in all of my life. It's such a shame that so many are deprived of these riches because of the obstinance and insistence of persisting in the aforementioned items. It seems like such a waste. How tragic.
I almost covet to convert to Orthodoxy...but things such as this prevent me. This makes me profoundly sad.
Christ is Risen!
Thanks for your thoughtful comment.
A few points for you to consider:
1. Authority
You seem to be caught in the middle here. On the one hand, you're open to admitting that the Scripture isn't the only source of authentic Christian teaching (you say that you'd be willing to accept certain beliefs and practices if they appeared in some of the very early Fathers, for example).
So on the one hand you're admitting that the texts of the Church aren't complete, on the other you're still confining your search to more texts.
How many letter do we have from St Ignatius, for example? Do you think everything he believed and did is contained in them?
He was a bishop. He belonged to the Church. And the Church, as I'm sure you realized, both predates both the Scripture and other later writings, and is the the Body that both drafted and accepted those writings.
I also think it's interesting that you're drawn to spiritual writings like the Philokalia. Again, these writings emerge out of the Church. The people that drafted the texts you appreciate were shaped by practices you seem to disapprove of, and beliefs you reject.
2. Theotokos
The Orthodox Church doesn't confess the Immaculate Conception.
As for her perpetual virginity, even the Reformers accepted that. Christians only began to reject that belief in later centuries.
3. Icons
Opposition to icons was influence by Islam: Muslims completely reject the Trinity and the Incarnation, so of course they reject iconography. And it was perpetuated by heretical Christians who view matter as somehow base, or even evil.
Icons matter because the Son of God took on flesh and became fully human. Because the Lord entered the physical world and sanctifies it.
And, as we cover in the video, we can find iconography in the Temple. Even early synagogues, like the one found in Dura-Europa, are adorned in icons. As you probably know, contemporary Judaism was shaped in large part by a rejection of Christianity, so it's no surprise that practices like this were abandoned.
4. Saints
I'm not sure what exactly is your objection here.
St Paul, when he wrote to particular communities, address his letters to the "saints" in those places.
Maybe the objection is to statements about certain people being in the Kingdom? St Paul, when speaking about certain co-laborers of his, says their names are "in the Book of Life" (Philippians 4:3).
Maybe the issue is praying to saints? Keep in mind that prayer and worship are two different things. Worship (which is reserved for God alone) inherently involves sacrifice, an altar, etc.
Presumably you've asked a friend to pray for you? That's no different than when we ask a saint for his prayers.
Maybe the difference is they've passed away? In which case, why does Christ say that God is God of the living, not the dead? Why did Moses and Elijah appear with Christ on Mt Tabor? Why did the graves of the dead open when Christ was Crucified?
Steven Christoforou Thanks so much for your reply. Yes...I was speaking of prayers to the saints.
I most definitely am suspended between "I don't know-ism" and orthodoxy. Cuz I sure as heck ain't no run of the mill protestant. I've been in a devoted life to Christ for 20 years and have studied till my eyes hurt (2000+ books in my library). Orthodoxy seems to be the logical end to my studies...but the iconography and prayers to the saints have stalled my conversion. Your reply has given me much to consider and it has been exceedingly helpful. I'll be screen-shotting it and referring to it often.
Yassssss! I love the Philokolia (all 4 volumes) the writings of St. Theophan, the Desert Fathers, Kallistos Ware (and many others) are like theological porn to me. I'm hooked. The ancient faith radio app has officially taken up all of the available space on my phone (from downloading messages). I'm going through somewhere between 5-10 podcasts a day. I just simply can't get enough of this stuff. It's feeding me SO MUCH.
And you're right...all of the people I've been helped by DO engage in the things I disagree with. I was just expressing the irony of this to my wife last night. This can mean one of two things: either God is gracious and can hereby overlook blatant error in one area (whilst providing an exacting source of light in other areas) or orthodoxy is 100% correct. But even so, I ask myself...is theological purity the goal? I don't know, but one thing I do know is that the logical end of Protestantism is wrong. Just dead wrong. Even where it's right, It's wrong. I can't go back to that. I refuse. I so want to convert. Please pray that I get over these mental hurdles. Metaphorically, I see orthodoxy as a beautiful woman that I can't take my eyes off. Only problem is, I'm married and am hereby prevented from touching her (thus the hurdles).
I cannot begin to convey just how drawn to Orthodoxy that I truly am. Not just in an intellectual way either...there's a soulical penetration underway. Something is shifting in the core and fabric of my being. It's like a spiritual seismic shift of sorts. Hard to describe, but it's as if I'm being given divine definitions to deeply profound spiritual realities that at one time I had no way to express. It's like being given words to express unutterable, deep seeded spiritual emotions that were too deep for words. In this sense, it feels as if I've been orthodox all along...but I was just waiting for someone to express and hereby define the inexpressable. But once expressed...I realize I've felt this way all along. Many of these feelings have been with me since the time I first started my journey into sanctification and Christian living. It truly is liberating to be enlightened.
Just have to get over the hurdles.
Thanks again for your reply. I cannot tell you how appreciative I truly am. I wish I could have responded to every point you made, but I'm just heading out the door. Have a blessed week my brother.
Steve.
PS: feel free to email me: gabby4blue@yahoo.com
Thank God, I'm glad this is a fruitful conversation!
And thanks for sharing your story. Wow, I can't even imagine how difficult it must be to be so torn. The image you used (of not being able to take your eyes off a woman, yet being married to another) is so striking.
Lord have mercy. This sounds like such an immense weight.
If it's ok with you, we'll add you to our daily prayers as a Team. May God continue to stoke the flames in your heart to help propel you forward, and help cut the chains the pull you backward. Through the prayers of St John of Damascus and all the saints!
Steven Christoforou Yes, it most definitely is a fruitful conversation (and an immense weight). Mainly because I'm genuinely seeking truth. Please don't be offended, but what I'm trying to avoid here is idolatry. But...I don't view people like yourself as idolaters. It's a strange position to be in. It's also strange that I'm spending upwards to 100.00 a week on orthodox books. I just spent 70.00 on a single hardcover book (St. Issac's homilies on asceticism). I'm being immensely helped through Orthodoxy...but yet I feel I can't fully embrace it. I want to throw caution to the wind, but I have this fear that the caution I want to throw out is conviction from God. What's at stake here is a seared over conscience and THAT is what I'm trying to avoid. It doesn't help that the closest orthodox Christians are an hour away. So, I'm kind of alone in this (with my books and RUclips videos). My protestant friends are more like Job's friends (where orthodoxy is concerned).
Sooooo...it goes without saying that I more than welcome your prayers. And I see what you did there..."through the prayers of Saint John of Damascus and all the saints". Lol! That gave me quite the chuckle. Hey, I'm open to anything. Get them involved if need be. Considering my issue is iconography and prayers to the saints... I see no better way to convince me of the biblical validity of an issue than tangibly utilizing that VERY issue as the conduit to deliver the results.
Thanks so much for your reply (once again). It means a lot. Feel free to email me. I'm truly seeking truth. I reserve the right to be wrong. I don't presuppose I'm right. I'm very much open to the truth (even if that truth makes me wrong).
May Christ be with you richly, my friend.
Steve.
I appreciate the passion you bring to these questions. Your sincerity is so apparent.
I'm sorry you're in the midst of this struggle. God be with you.
Through the prayers of all the saints. :-)
May these struggles be birth pangs and inaugurate something more.
The music is annoying. Good content though
What about the second Commandment:
4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments ! You seem like a guy who wants do know the truth...The Bible is teaching us everything...icons were added hundreds years later and a lot of that times christians didn't agreed with them...just read The Bible, pray and ask Jesus personally to show you the real Truth. God bless you.
Did you watch the video? We covered the issue of idolatry, which is the whole point of the Second Commandment (the issue is worshiping images, not images as such, as we see in other parts of the Old Testament).
As for iconography, it actually seems to have roots in earlier Jewish practice:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dura-Europos_synagogue
WE STILL DO NOT KNOW THE PHYSICAL IMAGE OF CHRIST TO VENERATE AN ICON OF HIS LIKENESS; NOR MARY WHO SHOULD NEVER BE VENERATED. I AM AN ORTHODOX CATHOLIC. THE COMMANDMENTS ARE EXPLICIT ON MAKING IMAGES; AS YOU SO DESCRIBED !!!
1. The Church has been making icons since the beginning. In fact, the first Christian icon (made by St Luke the Evangelist) was of the Theotokos.
2. Even so, the point of an icon isn't to be a precisely accurate portrait. What matters is that the Son of God took on flesh, even if we may miss some of the details of how He looked (which is one reason why icons hare stylized, not photorealistic).
3. Veneration isn't worship.
It is idolatry.
What makes you say that?
Steven Christoforou the Bible states only through Christ do we come to the father.The rest were just servants.Though I am an agnostic I am well versed in scripture.The greek church is a failure.90%of Greeks don't even know the basics.actually it's higher.They practice tradition but no spirituality .
I'm not sure what this has to do with idolatry.
In your second comment, you brought in the question of Christ as mediator (and what exactly that means). Plus there's the question of the life of the Church (which isn't a question of Scriptural exegesis, but still an important question).
Like I said, these are also important questions. But the conversation is already losing focus.
Steven Christoforou you are right it's loosing focus.You lack understanding!!I Colossians 2:8
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Once again, you're changing the subject. What are you talking about?
Like the young man who couldn't part with his treasure and wealth, if you cannot part with icons, you are committing idolatry. Be careful all, icons have no part in your faith in God and play no role in salvation.
You misunderstand idolatry (and icons, for that matter) if you think icons are idolatrous.
@@stevenchristoforou1667 Anything can be idolatry. Read my post with that in mind.
@@Richard-hn8ex By your argument, Christians shouldn't do anything since "anything can be idolatry."
You're also misreading what idolatry is by understanding the concept through attachment: that's not what the Lord was getting at when He forbade idolatry.
@@stevenchristoforou1667 Idolatry = putting something above God. When you cannot part with the world, you are idolizing (biblically) it. So if you cannot part with money, icons, people, you put them above God because they become more important.
@@Richard-hn8ex Ok, but what does that have to do with icons?
The Lord Our God hates idols, and commands us not to make graven images of anything in heaven or on earth. He is a jealous God, and declares there is none besides him.
“Woe to him who says to wood, ‘Awake!’ To silent stone, ‘Arise! It shall teach!’ Behold, it is overlaid with gold and silver, Yet in it there is no breath at all.”
Habakkuk 2:19
“For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not. They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good. Forasmuch as there is none like unto thee, O Lord; thou art great, and thy name is great in might.”
Jeremiah 10:3-6
As the above video clarifies, God in the Old Testament forbade idolatry, i.e. the worshipping of false "gods", not images in general.
Pagan.
Do you worship a God other than the Trinity?
Because that's the only way worshipping the Son of God could be considered "pagan."
As for icons, we don't worship those. So, again, I'm not sure what makes this "pagan."
Did you watch the video?