I think I may be on to something here, the piston was certainly a fair bit harder to get into the bore, once the oil scraper rings were entering the barrel!
You probably found the problem with this expander, but I'd add light honing of this bore, which looks very shiny to my old eyes, perhaps it's a camera trick, but perhaps it's already glazed with oil.
Common issue when fitting the oil control ring and it's not been checked before fitting the barrel/s, that the centre expansion ring hasn't overlapped, it will break one the abutment tangs off when fitted and run hence the smoke. I've never seen a Honda oil control ring break unless incorrectly fitted.
Maybe it doesn't show well on camera, but assuming it's an iron liner and not chromed, I don't see a well defined cross hatch pattern. That could also exacerbate the oil consumption.
Had the same problem on a 1949 Harley panhead. Got a new set of rings for it and the oil expansion rings ( on the new set) were longer ( only the springy part was longer). It put more outward pressure on the “rails” , the thin rings. Problem solved!
I had a similar problem with an xl125 once. The expander was broken 1/3 way around ,it smoked like mad .New set of rings fixed it right up.Your onto the problem for sure!
iv'e had exactly the same problem on a 750 commando and it was creating a hell of a lot of smoke took me forever to find out what was wrong ,the pistons were 10.25-1 compression powermax i had bought the pistons with the rings already assembled and a freshly bored barrel it was smoking really bad on one ,i ran it for while with the rocker feed blocked off and it made no difference so i knew it had to be a ring problem well done Paul hope it sorts it
Paul I just finished a rebuild one an XL350 i used the same exact rings that were shown in the video. Bikes smokes horribly, should have checked ring gap but was in a rush... what a rookie mistake.
An observation from NZ would be that the compression ring gaps arent the problem, the oil scraper however is the likely culprit but in any event dont accept that cos it say honda on it , it is original........dont forget, it says OXO on london buses but they dont sell it, lol.
As several have commented, A light hone to help the piston and rings to bed in, Also, a very basic mineral oil, no synthetic until the parts are sealing and run in,
I never use synthetic oil, always mineral. That bore only did about 10 miles after being re sleeved, the engine is now back together and running fine, as can be seen in more recent video footage.
I would have been totally stumped by that but my ancient knowledge of engines doesn't include an expander for the oil ring. I'd never heard of one before this, despite owning a small Honda, donkey's years ago. Good detective work!
Nice bit of detective work. Strange such big gaps on the new rings. Looking forward to the results. The proof of the pudding will be a nice smoke free exhaust. Bound to be a little smoke on the first startup.
I don't want to disappoint you, but your piston is 1st over (+.25mm), which can be seen by the "25" mark on the right side (video ~ 00:20). Whereas your new rings are for standard bore (P/N 13011-...). If I were you, I would buy propper new rings (13012-...) and get the barrel re-honed.
I don't think that refers to an oversize - they are usually denoted by stampings in the piston crown, however, the piston and rings I am using are like new and matched to the new liner's bore, so I don't see a problem.
@@paulhenshaw4514 O.K. then - was just my guess. If you haven't mounted the engine together, you could easily find out with a caliper. (to be measured at the lowest part of the piston skirt)
Somewhere I read an old “rule of thumb “ about ring end gaps. For every inch of bore size add .004”. So a 3 inch bore would have a ring end gap of .012”. Give or take.
An end-gap spec would sure be handy about now. I'd guess proper would be around .012" ranging to a bit more at the loose end. I think you got it with catching the expander, hope it works.
hi Paul that's the problem having to track other peoples not so handy work, its a shame you did'nt have the new rings to compare with the old ones but that's life, but having said you've checked every thing now on the old smoker and that what you have found screams to me at least that's the culprit, but hey i've got my fingers crossed for ya.
Wow that is a gap! I have smoking on the 441 with new rings and suspect the 10+ barrel is a tad oval front to back. My piston to barrel was 3 thou and rings gapped at 9=10. Hoping they bed into the round eventually.
Did the guy who fitted the liner, have the piston and rings to work with but perhaps any bore/piston/ring work was beyond their remit? I would want to know what the manual recommends for ring end gap parameters. That new oil control ring looks very different to the one originally fitted doesn't it! This has been a good journey of investigation.
Please let us know if this fixed the problem. Every now and then I see a "I think I've found the problem" video but we never find out if the guess was right. Thanks
It doest matter having. 040 + on the new oil ring rails I would use the matching components of the oil new ring , the old expander definately your problem . That old expander is very coarse in it look its probably out of a car and may be wrong bore size ?, did that broken tang break off and damage the old bore liner .
That cylinder is way to shiny , give it a bit of 2000 before you re assemble and make sure of the amount of oil in it there are different dip stick lengths that fit yr bike my 350 had one out of a Honda cub .
@@paulhenshaw4514 The end gap made me wonder if the cylinder was standard and had a 10 thou over set of rings HAND filed back .That liner didn, t look like it had been removed ? I have had 2 250,s and a very hot 350 and a 350 with a 410 kit , one 350 was a bit of a smoker . Hand filed ring would tell you that the Oil control expander had to be Nipped to fit i have done this so makes sense .Good work Mate .
You probably found the problem with this expander, but I'd add light honing of this bore, which looks very shiny to my old eyes, perhaps it's a camera trick, but perhaps it's already glazed with oil.
spot on first thing i saw
Common issue when fitting the oil control ring and it's not been checked before fitting the barrel/s, that the centre expansion ring hasn't overlapped, it will break one the abutment tangs off when fitted and run hence the smoke. I've never seen a Honda oil control ring break unless incorrectly fitted.
Maybe it doesn't show well on camera, but assuming it's an iron liner and not chromed, I don't see a well defined cross hatch pattern. That could also exacerbate the oil consumption.
Had the same problem on a 1949 Harley panhead. Got a new set of rings for it and the oil expansion rings ( on the new set) were longer ( only the springy part was longer). It put more outward pressure on the “rails” , the thin rings. Problem solved!
I had a similar problem with an xl125 once. The expander was broken 1/3 way around ,it smoked like mad .New set of rings fixed it right up.Your onto the problem for sure!
Excellent. Oil control ring not controlling anything
iv'e had exactly the same problem on a 750 commando
and it was creating a hell of a lot of smoke
took me forever to find out what was wrong ,the pistons were 10.25-1 compression powermax i had bought the pistons with the rings already assembled and a freshly bored barrel
it was smoking really bad on one ,i ran it for while with the rocker feed blocked off and it made no difference so i knew it had to be a ring problem
well done Paul hope it sorts it
Paul I just finished a rebuild one an XL350 i used the same exact rings that were shown in the video. Bikes smokes horribly, should have checked ring gap but was in a rush... what a rookie mistake.
An observation from NZ would be that the compression ring gaps arent the problem, the oil scraper however is the likely culprit but in any event dont accept that cos it say honda on it , it is original........dont forget, it says OXO on london buses but they dont sell it, lol.
As several have commented,
A light hone to help the piston and rings to bed in,
Also, a very basic mineral oil, no synthetic until the parts are sealing and run in,
I never use synthetic oil, always mineral. That bore only did about 10 miles after being re sleeved, the engine is now back together and running fine, as can be seen in more recent video footage.
I would have been totally stumped by that but my ancient knowledge of engines doesn't include an expander for the oil ring. I'd never heard of one before this, despite owning a small Honda, donkey's years ago. Good detective work!
Nice bit of detective work. Strange such big gaps on the new rings. Looking forward to the results. The proof of the pudding will be a nice smoke free exhaust. Bound to be a little smoke on the first startup.
I don't want to disappoint you, but your piston is 1st over (+.25mm), which can be seen by the "25" mark on the right side (video ~ 00:20). Whereas your new rings are for standard bore (P/N 13011-...). If I were you, I would buy propper new rings (13012-...) and get the barrel re-honed.
I don't think that refers to an oversize - they are usually denoted by stampings in the piston crown, however, the piston and rings I am using are like new and matched to the new liner's bore, so I don't see a problem.
@@paulhenshaw4514 O.K. then - was just my guess. If you haven't mounted the engine together, you could easily find out with a caliper. (to be measured at the lowest part of the piston skirt)
Somewhere I read an old “rule of thumb “ about ring end gaps. For every inch of bore size add .004”. So a 3 inch bore would have a ring end gap of .012”. Give or take.
That looks like the culprit Paul, nice one!
An end-gap spec would sure be handy about now. I'd guess proper would be around .012" ranging to a bit more at the loose end. I think you got it with catching the expander, hope it works.
hi Paul that's the problem having to track other peoples not so handy work, its a shame you did'nt have the new rings to compare with the old ones but that's life, but having said you've checked every thing now on the old smoker and that what you have found screams to me at least that's the culprit, but hey i've got my fingers crossed for ya.
You've got it Paul.....I'm convinced!
fingers `n`evrything crossed you`ve sussed it paul..!
Well, powder my nose, mon cheri ! If that wasn't a bally good piece of sleuthing, what ?
Wow that is a gap! I have smoking on the 441 with new rings and suspect the 10+ barrel is a tad oval front to back. My piston to barrel was 3 thou and rings gapped at 9=10. Hoping they bed into the round eventually.
Well I'll go t' foot of our stairs.
The things you find, well spotted!
Been an interesting story this. Fingers crossed. Has anyone asked you to ASBO a J series yet?
Did the guy who fitted the liner, have the piston and rings to work with but perhaps any bore/piston/ring work was beyond their remit? I would want to know what the manual recommends for ring end gap parameters.
That new oil control ring looks very different to the one originally fitted doesn't it! This has been a good journey of investigation.
May this be the end of "Smokey Joe". Hope that's the cure Paul.🤔
Wow. Well done 👍
Please let us know if this fixed the problem. Every now and then I see a "I think I've found the problem" video but we never find out if the guess was right.
Thanks
Good job. Thanks !
It doest matter having. 040 + on the new oil ring rails I would use the matching components of the oil new ring , the old expander definately your problem . That old expander is very coarse in it look its probably out of a car and may be wrong bore size ?, did that broken tang break off and damage the old bore liner .
Aye, he shouldn´t mix em!
We will see ...
3 piece oil rings often miss-understood.
I’m not convinced but want to see the result.
i presume the new liner has been checked for ovality? at 4.58 there's a huge gap between the ring and bore.
I saw that too, though if you scroll to 5:01 there looks to be something between the ring and bore 🤷🏻♂️
The guy who fitted the new liner knows what he is doing. It is round.
That cylinder is way to shiny , give it a bit of 2000 before you re assemble and make sure of the amount of oil in it there are different dip stick lengths that fit yr bike my 350 had one out of a Honda cub .
You might want to see the latest videos about this machine - it is running fine, and there is no smoke.
@@paulhenshaw4514 The end gap made me wonder if the cylinder was standard and had a 10 thou over set of rings HAND filed back .That liner didn, t look like it had been removed ? I have had 2 250,s and a very hot 350 and a 350 with a 410 kit , one 350 was a bit of a smoker . Hand filed ring would tell you that the Oil control expander had to be Nipped to fit i have done this so makes sense .Good work Mate .
Is this the same bike that had the oil leak too
No, it didn't leak, just smoked badly.
LoL