Ok, so I'll have to disagree completely. You value yard access or storage tracks but the most important thing on a terminal station is CAPACITY - how many trains per hour is the station capable of turning around. There are many factors in it (tailtracks allowing trains to approach faster, switches as closest to the stations as possible, separate termination tracks from continuous tracks etc.) So, having said this, I was outraged when you put 71st Avenue in the S tier, as it is actually one of the worse terminals in the system, reducing capacity on QBL and it's the reason the G isn't extended to Forest Hills. Even worse case of this is Church Avenue on Culver. Another one I would put much lower is Jamaica Center, which has the switches so far away it forces some E trains to run to 179 St - definitely a D tier. On the other hand, I would definitely put Hudson Yards higher - the high speed crossovers, tailtracks and signals allow for very efficient and fast operations.
I do wish that E trains were extended so that they could turn around more trains at Jamaica Center. E to 179th isn’t necessarily BAD, but they wouldn’t be diverted there in the first place if Jamaica Center was a decent terminal.
I believe Forest Hills was designed to turn 34 tph and did so in the 30s, 40s, and 50s. This design was so good that other systems like Moscow and Beijing copied those terminal designs for their own use, and upgraded those designs so that they can handle in some cases 40+ tph. That is because the IND and the NYCTA treated Forest Hills like any other stop. Once the train enters Forest Hills, the doors open, then close, and travel on the layup tracks to be turned around. When the MTA started to fumigate trains, that is when Forest Hills become way less efficient.
@@jointransitassociation Is this also why 179th Street isn’t being used to it’s full turnaround capacity? Cause I know it can turn around 63 trains per hour.
Welcome back! I agree with most of your tier list, but here are the ones I disagree on. Coney Island should be in D Tier. The amount of times I get delayed at West 8th St is insane. I think the issue is that the switches are placed way too far from the station, and combined with the sharp curves, it makes fumigation longer. Flatbush Ave should also be in D Tier: Again, the amount of times that I get delayed starting at Newkirk is insane. The lack of tail tracks really makes things 100 times worse. It is also sad that this was supposed to be a temporary terminal, and that if the MTA wants to give Nostrand a proper terminal, they have to deal with NIMBYs. Jamaica Center should also be in D Tier. Once again, the amount of times I get delayed at Sutphin (as you alluded to in the video) is insane. I think the issue is the same as Coney Island: switches are placed too far from the station. Hudson Yards should be in at least A tier. As much as I think the 7 should be extended east and not west, I do have to admit that Hudson Yards is a much needed elite terminal. Before, with Times Sq, you can only really run 25 tph. Now with Hudson Yards, you can run as many trains as CBTC allows you to, which is around 29 tph. Also, those tail tracks do store trains because of overcrowding at Corona Yard. Finally, for all four terminals in S Tier, if we are talking current times, then those terminals should be in D Tier. But if we are talking about past times, when the NYCTA did not fumigate these trains, then those terminals rightfully belong at S Tier. These terminal designs can turn 40 tph, and were so good that other systems like Moscow and Beijing copied those designs for their own systems. When the MTA started implementing fumigation and artificially reduced speeds, it really destroyed those terminals.
Hudson Yards can terminate 36 tph, possibly even more but 36 tph is the maximum potential line capacity on the 7. Other things constrain the 7 to 29 tph, like not enough electrical power, not enough trains, Main St being such a terrible terminal even combined with yard put ins, and high dwell times at certain stations.
Not really. Forest Hills is a good terminal, if you know how to use it. In fact, other systems copied this design for their own systems, like Moscow and Beijing.
@@jointransitassociationYou litterally said that Forest hills was an awful terminal for limiting train turnarounds and more like I can't even comprehend someone putting it high has the IQ of a dead plant.
Flatbush Avenue station is a sister station to Misakiguchi station in the Keikyu railway network in Japan. Capacity constraints for those two stations mean some trains have to terminate at different stations because they share something pretty precarious: they are dead end stations with side platforms that were not intended to be their terminals. Extension plans for the Nostrand and Keikyu Kurihama lines were canceled because of cost concerns. If those two lines get extended to proper terminal stations then the capacity constraints of both lines would be eliminated.
The design is good, the iusse is they take to damn long preparing the train to enter into the yard or relays. If they just improved the policy, or send the M to Rockaway Park or 179, than that wouldn't be an iusse anymore.
3:36 For Wakefield, trains going to the yard could go from 241 street - nereid avenue on the express track then switch to the yard. There is a switch on the express track so they don’t need to go to the yard (that is common knowledge) I’m not sure if any trains do this, but I know trains from the yard on the tracks before they go into the actual yard stops there, then backs up for trains entering the Flatbush bound track. I live around nereid avenue so I usually see trains parked at the nereid avenue express track waiting to go to the yard.
4:39 this yard is always crowded. The 4 D/B and 4 trains always share this yard even though the 4 has a yard for itself it can use. The mta also always has the same pump train always in the yard, always Redbirds, and always the same amount of r142s. I didn’t say r142a because when I ride the 4 I ONLY see r142s in the side of the b/d yard. Tbh mta needs more yards just to store trains WITH a wash (because my god 242 r62/as do NOT take care of there trains because there is no wash.
20:23 whenever I go here to see something, I NEVER figure out how to get out of here. Mets just makes me confused. When I go on the Hudson yards bound 7 train I need to ask someone how to get to the Hudson yards side I just wait for the next 7 to Main Street and just wait for the train to leave (THE NEXT 7 TRAIN NEVER WAITS FOR THE 7 TRAIN JUST ARRIVED FOR SOME REASON)
There are quantitative measures for rating terminal capacity. These are the number of trains per hour a terminal can handle and the minimum time required between when a train enters a terminal and when it leaves. This is important because terminal capacity is usually lower than the capacity at intermediate stations. One solution is to have multiple branches at each end of the trunk. Loops are the most efficient terminal type, in terms of service level capacity and minimum time to "reverse" direction. Their service level capacity is the same as an intermediate station. Similarly the minimum "reversal" time is simply the station dwell time that's dictated by the passenger count. The IRT knew this, when they designed the original subway in 1904. There were multiple uptown terminals. The downtown local track ended in the City Hall loop. The downtown express track ended in the South Ferry Loop. The BRT had a similar arrangement with trains that terminated at the Sands St double loop on the upper level. Terminals that require the train to change direction require time for the train to change direction. As per FRA regulations, the air brakes must be discharged and recharged. This takes about 1 minute. The nominal dwell time for 40 tph operation is 30 seconds. This means that a reversing terminal needs additional tracks to handle the extra dwell time. The extra track isn't required for a loop terminal. There are two types of reversing terminals. One where the train reverses direction within the terminal. The other is where the train continues past the terminal where it reverses direction. The latter is called a relay terminal. In addition to brake recharge time, capacity is also limited by the time trains occupy the crossover switch. This depends on both the switch's max crossover speed (10 mph), as well as the approach speed to the terminal. The approach speed is less, when the terminal ends in a bumper rather than tail tracks. The distance between the crossover and the station platform is also important. A reversing two-track terminal with tail tracks should be able to handle 40 tph. The Times Sq station on the Flushing Line did. The Jamaica Center, with its tail tracks should also. A reversing terminal ending with a bumper should be able to handle 15 tph. (The Third Ave El managed 21 tph at both South Ferry and City Hall with shorter trains.) The Jamaica Center crossover was placed about 300 feet before the platform. Its capacity is 12 tph. It means that 3 E's must terminate at 179th St because Jamaica Center cannot handle the E's 15 tph peak service level. It deserves a failure rating. Relay terminals permit trains to enter at speed and leave a terminal at speed. This should give them a 40 tph service level capacity. The extra brake recharge time and time spent over the crossover are handled outside the platform. The downside is that extra trains are required to provide the same service level as loop terminals. However, NYCT has a fumigation policy that requires that all passengers must depart a train before it can enter the relay tracks. NYCT does not assign extra personnel to perform this fumigation in a timely manner. The fumigation takes approximately an additional 120 seconds to perform. This limits the capacity of relay terminals, like Forest Hills.
Two things: 1: Terminating trains at Lefferts Boulevard CAN’T go directly to the Pitkin Yard via the middle track (16:45) because the middle track dead ends at 104th Street and then starts again at Rockaway Boulevard. 2: If you’re going to include Parkchester, then you have to include Kings Highway on the Culver Line. During AM and PM rush hours, terminating/departing F trains alternate between Coney Island and Kings Highway. Also I’m pretty sure that the reason Saint George has ten tracks is because the terminal also acts as a yard.
The thing with Bedford Park is that C1 n C2 is bi directional between 205 n Bedford. However they stopped wrong railing trains from Bedford Park C5/6 to C1 into 205 since a near miss happened. Also if a D express is late they can bring it from C4 to C1 into Bedford Park.
145 sucks because if a B is on the Stand in the middle and a B is at 135 it'll block up the c service and most times they'll run a C on the express from 125 to 145. Also working the B line I've dropped out on C1 at 145th st too.
This is why the B and D should be Express on CPW, while the A and C go local. Fuck the one seat rider complainers they go ahead and kiss Queensways ass.
My idea of a "perfect" terminal is that trains should be able to pull out of the terminal station and loop around such that the front car remains the front car, and the conductor does not need to walk the length of the train. BTW, all stations should be able to operate as a terminal station in case of an emergency or planned work. For instance, if there's work on the 168th Street Station (#1 line) such that trans can't use or bypass that station, trains should be able to use the 157th Street station as a terminal station. Also, separate service should be able to run between 181st Street and Van Cortlandt Park. That way, shuttle busses could run a much shorter distance, requiring fewer of them and fewer drivers (since one bus and one driver can make more trips).
You have to remember that the IRT yards were built over 100 years ago! They had to be close to the terminal station, and there wasn't much space to place them.
Honorable Mentions: East 180th Street - Direct Access to East 180th Street Yard for both 2 and 5 services, three track platform, a tail track and a switch for both lines if it wants to go on the express track or the local tracks, A tier. Court Square - No Yard Access, One... Maybe even two switches but that's it, B tier.
Some notes: I grew up in Brighton Beach, with the Ocean Parkway station outside my bedroom window, in the 1970s, 80s, and early 90s. The subway was my 1:1 scale model railroad! Brighton Beach / Ocean Parkway --- the express tracks were often used to ferry express trains and work equipment to / from Coney Island. The express crossover to the CI-bound end of BB was a late addition (post R68 subway cars). The local tracks used to connect to the lower level of West 8th, but these were removed many decades ago. This would add flexibility at Stillwell if they were still there. Speaking of which.... the dead-end on the D line's outer track used to tie into the F-line up until the late 1970s or early 1980s - I have clear memories of slant-end B trains taking that track out of Stillwell. At the other end of Stillwell, a lower level line to the yard isn't possible. Originally, the Sea Beach and West End lines crossed Coney Island Creek on rolling lift bridges - remember, Coney Island Creek and Sheepshead Bay are the same waterway, though the middle portion now runs in a tunnel to equalize the water volume at either end. The bridges were replaced at some point (I think it was the 1950s) with fixed bridges, but they are still rather close to high tide level - definitely too low to allow for double deck tracking. If sea level rise becomes a chronic issue for the yard, I could see the whole area rebuilt and the track realigned in a few decades. Although, at that point, a soggy storage yard might be the least of Coney Island's problems.
If I’m being brutally honest Harlem-148 St IS the yard, if you search it up Harlem-148 St used to just be a part of the yard so its placement doesn’t make much sense 😅
Can I ask you a question did you ever do your research on any of this or you just using trakmaps because you know our system is not set up the way you want so I don't think you did your research what you did this video
The reason why Norwood has the switches behind the station is because it was not supposed to be determination spot and instead, it was supposed to go to co-op city that got scrapped.
While switches and flexibility are important, you put too much of a pressure on them. I regularly go to some of these stations at various times and I have never seen trains use some of the switches you praised.
here r some things i disagree on 1 at 1:58: i think parkchester is worse than bklyn brg bcz its a hassle with express, local and terminating trains all crossing in front of each other. bklyn brg isnt that great with the loop and its sharp curve but nowhere as bad as parkchester. it is also absurd that u raised its tier at 17:09 with all those merging conflicts. 2 at 10:32: jamaica ctr has low capacity (12 tph or trains every 5 min) bcz of its x switch placement. bcz the crossover is placed far from the terminal trains spend much more time on the wrong way track. this eats into capacity and makes it worse off than all other terminals it shares a tier with. 3 in whole list: terminals with an x crossover right next to the station and 2 tracks 1 platform but no tail tracks deserve b tier (ex. include 8 av (L) stop, and WTC (E) stop). this is bcz b tier in this list is the center tier and terminals like that deserve to be in the middle. and all terminals like that can handle 24 tph (trains every 2.5 min). as for 96th and 34th, they deserve a or s tier bcz they have a high speed x switch right b4 the station and tail tracks allowing trains to come in at high speeds. this allows those terminals to handle 30 tph (trains every 2 min). thats wy they should be in either a or s tier. 4 at 11:37: i sort of half agree with forest hills high on the list. on one hand, it is able to turn 30 tph (trains every 2 min) at full potential. but on the other hand, the conductor manually checks all train cars which holds the train in the station longer. bcz trains are held, that lowers capacity to 20 tph (trains every 3 min). 5 at 14:14: i think coney island as a whole should be in b tier bcz all of its tracks have flexibility including the (D). the (D) train is able to run on sea beach bcz of the switches north of the station. it can also run on brighton or west end but wont have its own platform and tracks. 6 at 15:31: i think court sq deserves a lower tier than the standard terminal design like 8 av and WTC. this is bcz trains spend a lot of time on the pocket track, eating into capacity. 7 at 21:42: i dont think the 42nd st shuttle terminals shouldve been ranked. this is bcz the 2 terminals are the only 2 stations on the line and trains just ping pong back and forth between them. as for franklin av on the frnk. shuttle, put it in f tier bcz its single tracked and the next station down (park pl) is also single tracked. btw all the things i didnt comment on i either agree with or dont have opinions on them
19:36, I think the tower at Utica avenue hates using that switch Because now all (5) trains to crown heights utica avenue that are supposed to go to livonia yard run on the local track express. Its completely regular
Nice! Which maps did you use? It looks a lot like cartometro but it isn't because cartometro doesn't have any maps of NYC subway yet, only LA Metro for the US.
Maybe if the (A) train skips grant av 80 st 88 st and they renovate the Rockaway Blvd station, and if the Fulton Street line can extend to Rockaway Blvd then if they don’t run the a train to Lefferts Blvd the c train can you go there and all a trains can go to Far Rockaway
Wow, I thought that 205th Street Norwood had an actual loop and the trains didn't have to reverse (i.e. have the front become back). It seems that it's the same as all the other terminal stations. The only advantage is that the uptown trains are always on one side and the downtown trains always on the other.
@@trainman8812 When the First System of the IND was built, in the 1930's - Co-Op City in the Bronx DID NOT EXIST YET! The planned extension (See System 1 and both plans of System 2) did not go near to where Co-Op (an ash-dump, land-fill, and former Amusement Park) would be built. Yes, TODAY a subway extension to Co-Op City would be very useful and helpful. Please also note that the MTA (as an organization) did not exist in the early 1930's when the First IND system became a reality.
@@leecornwell5632 Please note that when the Astoria and Corona Transit Lines were built in the 1920's, getting both to and from LaGuardia Airport was "not a thing." In the 1920's commercial flights were "not a thing", either. In fact, Mayor LaGuardia was not in office then also. Yes, TODAY a subway extension to LaGuardia Airport would be very useful and helpful. Please also note that the MTA (as an organization) did not exist in the early 1920's when the Astoria & Corona lines became a reality.
I remember they started to remove those tracks and part of the station before they did the long walk past from that station to wall st station when I was lil kid now I in my 20th♐ I still remember that worker removed half part of the station when my father was wrestling on that day
You don’t like city hall terminus is bcuz they can’t go beyond it? It’s still a good terminal there is no reason for the 6 to go beyond city hall anyways
That comment is a LIE no subways is best take a look at Chamber Steet station the j line disuseding been like that the late 50s & 60s it needs a make over Walls- Light - sighs and there's no Elavders the worst subway station in n.y.c.
Korean Air IKEA China Eastern Airlines JFK AIRPORT Long Beach Program to The Sea Navigation 🧭 ACDSEE PRO Ultimate Max Ex Blue GYRP ICDCM NL EX Architecture Archicad B1M Enterprise Menu 3QRCode PHP Codes Marine Standard Ranger System CMYK RGBs Amtrak Massive Train Railroad MTR Suica Ticket 🎟️ 🎫 Fine Arts Academy Sports Wear CMYK RGBs ESET Nod32 Smart Around
This dude didn't upload in 364 DAYS 💀
why didnt you decide to wait the extra day
@@synacol_werjThat’s what I was gonna say
@@CoinyTPOTis that coiny from tpot
@@CoinyTPOThi coiny its me marker
lol 💀
Ok, so I'll have to disagree completely. You value yard access or storage tracks but the most important thing on a terminal station is CAPACITY - how many trains per hour is the station capable of turning around. There are many factors in it (tailtracks allowing trains to approach faster, switches as closest to the stations as possible, separate termination tracks from continuous tracks etc.)
So, having said this, I was outraged when you put 71st Avenue in the S tier, as it is actually one of the worse terminals in the system, reducing capacity on QBL and it's the reason the G isn't extended to Forest Hills. Even worse case of this is Church Avenue on Culver. Another one I would put much lower is Jamaica Center, which has the switches so far away it forces some E trains to run to 179 St - definitely a D tier. On the other hand, I would definitely put Hudson Yards higher - the high speed crossovers, tailtracks and signals allow for very efficient and fast operations.
I do wish that E trains were extended so that they could turn around more trains at Jamaica Center.
E to 179th isn’t necessarily BAD, but they wouldn’t be diverted there in the first place if Jamaica Center was a decent terminal.
@@theforgottenone32100the only issue is that Jamaica center can only turn around 12 trains per hour
@@22k_LOL exactly, which is why I want it to be extended via JTA (Joint Transit Association)’s plan to springfield blvd.
I believe Forest Hills was designed to turn 34 tph and did so in the 30s, 40s, and 50s. This design was so good that other systems like Moscow and Beijing copied those terminal designs for their own use, and upgraded those designs so that they can handle in some cases 40+ tph. That is because the IND and the NYCTA treated Forest Hills like any other stop. Once the train enters Forest Hills, the doors open, then close, and travel on the layup tracks to be turned around.
When the MTA started to fumigate trains, that is when Forest Hills become way less efficient.
@@jointransitassociation Is this also why 179th Street isn’t being used to it’s full turnaround capacity? Cause I know it can turn around 63 trains per hour.
Welcome back! I agree with most of your tier list, but here are the ones I disagree on.
Coney Island should be in D Tier. The amount of times I get delayed at West 8th St is insane. I think the issue is that the switches are placed way too far from the station, and combined with the sharp curves, it makes fumigation longer.
Flatbush Ave should also be in D Tier: Again, the amount of times that I get delayed starting at Newkirk is insane. The lack of tail tracks really makes things 100 times worse. It is also sad that this was supposed to be a temporary terminal, and that if the MTA wants to give Nostrand a proper terminal, they have to deal with NIMBYs.
Jamaica Center should also be in D Tier. Once again, the amount of times I get delayed at Sutphin (as you alluded to in the video) is insane. I think the issue is the same as Coney Island: switches are placed too far from the station.
Hudson Yards should be in at least A tier. As much as I think the 7 should be extended east and not west, I do have to admit that Hudson Yards is a much needed elite terminal. Before, with Times Sq, you can only really run 25 tph. Now with Hudson Yards, you can run as many trains as CBTC allows you to, which is around 29 tph. Also, those tail tracks do store trains because of overcrowding at Corona Yard.
Finally, for all four terminals in S Tier, if we are talking current times, then those terminals should be in D Tier. But if we are talking about past times, when the NYCTA did not fumigate these trains, then those terminals rightfully belong at S Tier. These terminal designs can turn 40 tph, and were so good that other systems like Moscow and Beijing copied those designs for their own systems. When the MTA started implementing fumigation and artificially reduced speeds, it really destroyed those terminals.
Hudson Yards can terminate 36 tph, possibly even more but 36 tph is the maximum potential line capacity on the 7. Other things constrain the 7 to 29 tph, like not enough electrical power, not enough trains, Main St being such a terrible terminal even combined with yard put ins, and high dwell times at certain stations.
You forgot forest hills
@@BMTEnjoyer160It is mentioned within the 4 terminals TransitTalk put in S tiers.
10:41 joint transit association is gonna be furious about this forest hills placement...
how did u know?
@@josephrosner905because they rant about about how bad forest hills is at terminating trains
Yep ikr
Not really. Forest Hills is a good terminal, if you know how to use it. In fact, other systems copied this design for their own systems, like Moscow and Beijing.
@@jointransitassociationYou litterally said that Forest hills was an awful terminal for limiting train turnarounds and more like I can't even comprehend someone putting it high has the IQ of a dead plant.
Flatbush Avenue station is a sister station to Misakiguchi station in the Keikyu railway network in Japan. Capacity constraints for those two stations mean some trains have to terminate at different stations because they share something pretty precarious: they are dead end stations with side platforms that were not intended to be their terminals. Extension plans for the Nostrand and Keikyu Kurihama lines were canceled because of cost concerns. If those two lines get extended to proper terminal stations then the capacity constraints of both lines would be eliminated.
18:20 Euclid Av is just Forest Hills on steroids💀
Bro put forest hills In the same category as 179th st 😭 😭 😭
He doesn't know what he is talking about
:/
The design is good, the iusse is they take to damn long preparing the train to enter into the yard or relays. If they just improved the policy, or send the M to Rockaway Park or 179, than that wouldn't be an iusse anymore.
This is such a cool video. Much appreciated by folks like me who are FAR from New York, but can get their transit fill by watching videos like this.
3:36 For Wakefield, trains going to the yard could go from 241 street - nereid avenue on the express track then switch to the yard. There is a switch on the express track so they don’t need to go to the yard (that is common knowledge) I’m not sure if any trains do this, but I know trains from the yard on the tracks before they go into the actual yard stops there, then backs up for trains entering the Flatbush bound track. I live around nereid avenue so I usually see trains parked at the nereid avenue express track waiting to go to the yard.
4:39 this yard is always crowded. The 4 D/B and 4 trains always share this yard even though the 4 has a yard for itself it can use. The mta also always has the same pump train always in the yard, always Redbirds, and always the same amount of r142s. I didn’t say r142a because when I ride the 4 I ONLY see r142s in the side of the b/d yard. Tbh mta needs more yards just to store trains WITH a wash (because my god 242 r62/as do NOT take care of there trains because there is no wash.
20:23 whenever I go here to see something, I NEVER figure out how to get out of here. Mets just makes me confused. When I go on the Hudson yards bound 7 train I need to ask someone how to get to the Hudson yards side I just wait for the next 7 to Main Street and just wait for the train to leave (THE NEXT 7 TRAIN NEVER WAITS FOR THE 7 TRAIN JUST ARRIVED FOR SOME REASON)
There are quantitative measures for rating terminal capacity. These are the number of trains per hour a terminal can handle and the minimum time required between when a train enters a terminal and when it leaves. This is important because terminal capacity is usually lower than the capacity at intermediate stations. One solution is to have multiple branches at each end of the trunk.
Loops are the most efficient terminal type, in terms of service level capacity and minimum time to "reverse" direction. Their service level capacity is the same as an intermediate station. Similarly the minimum "reversal" time is simply the station dwell time that's dictated by the passenger count. The IRT knew this, when they designed the original subway in 1904. There were multiple uptown terminals. The downtown local track ended in the City Hall loop. The downtown express track ended in the South Ferry Loop. The BRT had a similar arrangement with trains that terminated at the Sands St double loop on the upper level.
Terminals that require the train to change direction require time for the train to change direction. As per FRA regulations, the air brakes must be discharged and recharged. This takes about 1 minute. The nominal dwell time for 40 tph operation is 30 seconds. This means that a reversing terminal needs additional tracks to handle the extra dwell time. The extra track isn't required for a loop terminal.
There are two types of reversing terminals. One where the train reverses direction within the terminal. The other is where the train continues past the terminal where it reverses direction. The latter is called a relay terminal.
In addition to brake recharge time, capacity is also limited by the time trains occupy the crossover switch. This depends on both the switch's max crossover speed (10 mph), as well as the approach speed to the terminal. The approach speed is less, when the terminal ends in a bumper rather than tail tracks. The distance between the crossover and the station platform is also important. A reversing two-track terminal with tail tracks should be able to handle 40 tph. The Times Sq station on the Flushing Line did. The Jamaica Center, with its tail tracks should also. A reversing terminal ending with a bumper should be able to handle 15 tph. (The Third Ave El managed 21 tph at both South Ferry and City Hall with shorter trains.) The Jamaica Center crossover was placed about 300 feet before the platform. Its capacity is 12 tph. It means that 3 E's must terminate at 179th St because Jamaica Center cannot handle the E's 15 tph peak service level. It deserves a failure rating.
Relay terminals permit trains to enter at speed and leave a terminal at speed. This should give them a 40 tph service level capacity. The extra brake recharge time and time spent over the crossover are handled outside the platform. The downside is that extra trains are required to provide the same service level as loop terminals. However, NYCT has a fumigation policy that requires that all passengers must depart a train before it can enter the relay tracks. NYCT does not assign extra personnel to perform this fumigation in a timely manner. The fumigation takes approximately an additional 120 seconds to perform. This limits the capacity of relay terminals, like Forest Hills.
Two things:
1: Terminating trains at Lefferts Boulevard CAN’T go directly to the Pitkin Yard via the middle track (16:45) because the middle track dead ends at 104th Street and then starts again at Rockaway Boulevard.
2: If you’re going to include Parkchester, then you have to include Kings Highway on the Culver Line. During AM and PM rush hours, terminating/departing F trains alternate between Coney Island and Kings Highway.
Also I’m pretty sure that the reason Saint George has ten tracks is because the terminal also acts as a yard.
The thing with Bedford Park is that C1 n C2 is bi directional between 205 n Bedford. However they stopped wrong railing trains from Bedford Park C5/6 to C1 into 205 since a near miss happened. Also if a D express is late they can bring it from C4 to C1 into Bedford Park.
145 sucks because if a B is on the Stand in the middle and a B is at 135 it'll block up the c service and most times they'll run a C on the express from 125 to 145. Also working the B line I've dropped out on C1 at 145th st too.
This is why the B and D should be Express on CPW, while the A and C go local. Fuck the one seat rider complainers they go ahead and kiss Queensways ass.
Some of the L trains towards Canarsie-Rockaway Parkway are terminated at Myrtle-Wyckoffs Ave.
Forest Hills in S? Wtf
My idea of a "perfect" terminal is that trains should be able to pull out of the terminal station and loop around such that the front car remains the front car, and the conductor does not need to walk the length of the train.
BTW, all stations should be able to operate as a terminal station in case of an emergency or planned work. For instance, if there's work on the 168th Street Station (#1 line) such that trans can't use or bypass that station, trains should be able to use the 157th Street station as a terminal station. Also, separate service should be able to run between 181st Street and Van Cortlandt Park. That way, shuttle busses could run a much shorter distance, requiring fewer of them and fewer drivers (since one bus and one driver can make more trips).
The tracks east of The E train platforms at Jamaica center
Was supposed to be an extension to connect to LIRR but i don’t know what happened
finally after wat felt like an eternity u finally made another main channel vid
You have to remember that the IRT yards were built over 100 years ago! They had to be close to the terminal station, and there wasn't much space to place them.
A year is crazy, but welcome back. (I was late)
Near 1 year
welcome back sir
Honorable Mentions:
East 180th Street - Direct Access to East 180th Street Yard for both 2 and 5 services, three track platform, a tail track and a switch for both lines if it wants to go on the express track or the local tracks, A tier.
Court Square - No Yard Access, One... Maybe even two switches but that's it, B tier.
Some notes:
I grew up in Brighton Beach, with the Ocean Parkway station outside my bedroom window, in the 1970s, 80s, and early 90s. The subway was my 1:1 scale model railroad!
Brighton Beach / Ocean Parkway --- the express tracks were often used to ferry express trains and work equipment to / from Coney Island. The express crossover to the CI-bound end of BB was a late addition (post R68 subway cars). The local tracks used to connect to the lower level of West 8th, but these were removed many decades ago. This would add flexibility at Stillwell if they were still there.
Speaking of which.... the dead-end on the D line's outer track used to tie into the F-line up until the late 1970s or early 1980s - I have clear memories of slant-end B trains taking that track out of Stillwell.
At the other end of Stillwell, a lower level line to the yard isn't possible. Originally, the Sea Beach and West End lines crossed Coney Island Creek on rolling lift bridges - remember, Coney Island Creek and Sheepshead Bay are the same waterway, though the middle portion now runs in a tunnel to equalize the water volume at either end. The bridges were replaced at some point (I think it was the 1950s) with fixed bridges, but they are still rather close to high tide level - definitely too low to allow for double deck tracking. If sea level rise becomes a chronic issue for the yard, I could see the whole area rebuilt and the track realigned in a few decades. Although, at that point, a soggy storage yard might be the least of Coney Island's problems.
I thought I wouldn't have the good summer without a TransitTalk video...BUT I GOT BLESSED
this video makes me hate him honestly I still like him but his reasons frustrate me 😭
If I’m being brutally honest Harlem-148 St IS the yard, if you search it up Harlem-148 St used to just be a part of the yard so its placement doesn’t make much sense 😅
transit i didnt take a single nap after you left, i finally took a nap in the day
u did take a nap
@@EndIessProductions i started taking naps after he uploaded
Can I ask you a question did you ever do your research on any of this or you just using trakmaps because you know our system is not set up the way you want so I don't think you did your research what you did this video
Original city hall is disqualified because it is not an active station 0:52
The reason why Norwood has the switches behind the station is because it was not supposed to be determination spot and instead, it was supposed to go to co-op city that got scrapped.
It was actually supposed to go to Baychester Avenue not Co-Op City
12:28 But foamers will definitely want that! 😂
While switches and flexibility are important, you put too much of a pressure on them. I regularly go to some of these stations at various times and I have never seen trains use some of the switches you praised.
Dekalb avanue junction is just like Broadway junction on steroids 💀
4:01 - I know the IRT [1,2,3,4,5,6,7] trains interiors are narrower to fit though station platforms;
what about the tracks guage?
Basically, the IND was far better at building terminals than the BMT and IRT.
here r some things i disagree on
1 at 1:58: i think parkchester is worse than bklyn brg bcz its a hassle with express, local and terminating trains all crossing in front of each other. bklyn brg isnt that great with the loop and its sharp curve but nowhere as bad as parkchester. it is also absurd that u raised its tier at 17:09 with all those merging conflicts.
2 at 10:32: jamaica ctr has low capacity (12 tph or trains every 5 min) bcz of its x switch placement. bcz the crossover is placed far from the terminal trains spend much more time on the wrong way track. this eats into capacity and makes it worse off than all other terminals it shares a tier with.
3 in whole list: terminals with an x crossover right next to the station and 2 tracks 1 platform but no tail tracks deserve b tier (ex. include 8 av (L) stop, and WTC (E) stop). this is bcz b tier in this list is the center tier and terminals like that deserve to be in the middle. and all terminals like that can handle 24 tph (trains every 2.5 min). as for 96th and 34th, they deserve a or s tier bcz they have a high speed x switch right b4 the station and tail tracks allowing trains to come in at high speeds. this allows those terminals to handle 30 tph (trains every 2 min). thats wy they should be in either a or s tier.
4 at 11:37: i sort of half agree with forest hills high on the list. on one hand, it is able to turn 30 tph (trains every 2 min) at full potential. but on the other hand, the conductor manually checks all train cars which holds the train in the station longer. bcz trains are held, that lowers capacity to 20 tph (trains every 3 min).
5 at 14:14: i think coney island as a whole should be in b tier bcz all of its tracks have flexibility including the (D). the (D) train is able to run on sea beach bcz of the switches north of the station. it can also run on brighton or west end but wont have its own platform and tracks.
6 at 15:31: i think court sq deserves a lower tier than the standard terminal design like 8 av and WTC. this is bcz trains spend a lot of time on the pocket track, eating into capacity.
7 at 21:42: i dont think the 42nd st shuttle terminals shouldve been ranked. this is bcz the 2 terminals are the only 2 stations on the line and trains just ping pong back and forth between them. as for franklin av on the frnk. shuttle, put it in f tier bcz its single tracked and the next station down (park pl) is also single tracked.
btw all the things i didnt comment on i either agree with or dont have opinions on them
I can’t see how Brooklyn Bridge-City Hall is worse than Parkchester either.
The return of the king
Child did you do your research before you did this video cuz I don't think you did
This “child” obviously has a voice of a man 😭😭😭😭
Why did you include Mets Wilits' Point when the 7 express terminates at Flushing.
1:09 - 6 trains can decide whether to go local or express in Manhattan. 4/5 trains can terminate here too
Welcome Back! Let's Go!
19:36, I think the tower at Utica avenue hates using that switch Because now all (5) trains to crown heights utica avenue that are supposed to go to livonia yard run on the local track express. Its completely regular
14:44 so that's how the 5 and 2 go to South ferry cool
EMINEM RETURNED AND SO DID TRANSIT TALK NYC LET’S GOOOOOO
13:48 - Those are the tracks that mad the old 60's NX a thing.
Why is direct yard access so important to you? It doesn't do much for service levels.
Stillwell Avenue is the best terminsl. It's the largest in the system, and after renovation, it's the most organized!
Nice!
Which maps did you use?
It looks a lot like cartometro but it isn't because cartometro doesn't have any maps of NYC subway yet, only LA Metro for the US.
He’s back! (Bro did include 205 St 😮)
You’re back!
Also with church Avenue the M can’t continue on to Brooklyn. How can the F go to Coney Island?
Maybe if the (A) train skips grant av 80 st 88 st and they renovate the Rockaway Blvd station, and if the Fulton Street line can extend to Rockaway Blvd then if they don’t run the a train to Lefferts Blvd the c train can you go there and all a trains can go to Far Rockaway
UR BACK!
Welcome back !
Wow, I thought that 205th Street Norwood had an actual loop and the trains didn't have to reverse (i.e. have the front become back). It seems that it's the same as all the other terminal stations. The only advantage is that the uptown trains are always on one side and the downtown trains always on the other.
The north tracks at coney island on the Q is used for the Sea Beach Run and the single R160 Run
What did the L train do to this guy 😭😭😭😭🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏
Oh yeah lenox yard isn't a maintenance yard so if we want to de-interline Lenox yard needs a change.
205th St was never meant to be a terminal. The D was supposed to go farther east.
Yep it was supposed to go to co op city
The N W trains was supposed to be extended to LaGuardia airport station.
@@trainman8812 When the First System of the IND was built, in the 1930's - Co-Op City in the Bronx DID NOT EXIST YET! The planned extension (See System 1 and both plans of System 2) did not go near to where Co-Op (an ash-dump, land-fill, and former Amusement Park) would be built. Yes, TODAY a subway extension to Co-Op City would be very useful and helpful. Please also note that the MTA (as an organization) did not exist in the early 1930's when the First IND system became a reality.
@@leecornwell5632 Please note that when the Astoria and Corona Transit Lines were built in the 1920's, getting both to and from LaGuardia Airport was "not a thing." In the 1920's commercial flights were "not a thing", either. In fact, Mayor LaGuardia was not in office then also. Yes, TODAY a subway extension to LaGuardia Airport would be very useful and helpful. Please also note that the MTA (as an organization) did not exist in the early 1920's when the Astoria & Corona lines became a reality.
The N W trains is eventually be extended to LaGuardia airport I'm telling you.
Bro finally returned
I remember they started to remove those tracks and part of the station before they did the long walk past from that station to wall st station when I was lil kid now I in my 20th♐ I still remember that worker removed half part of the station when my father was wrestling on that day
IRT has better train services but IND/BMT have better terminals.
YAY HES BACK
At Continental they have 6 trains down there sometimes.
Welcome back to RUclips
Brooklyn Bridge City Hall might end up in "D" but the City Hall Loop itself deserves "S".
Bro finally uploaded
The Pelham 6 line could definitely be extended to co op city
I figured these trains that need yard access would just make their last stop at w/e stop is before it
Having to go through a terminal to access a yard?
Building extra tracks to the yard just to serve the minority of trains terminating?
One day you should rank the nyc subway
is there a link to the tierlist?
Where was bro for a year?? 😭🙏🏾
Wait a minute, I thought he would start uploading his video again by May 2024? He was probably busy with his life anyways so
Welcome back
i think this guy just loves the letter C 💀
Coney Island-Stillwell Av
Church Avenue should go in the a TEr
Guess who's back?
Idk South Ferry the last stop for the 1 train
This video is actually the one that makes me hate you
no I still like your videos but like
WTF IS WRONG WITH THIS VIDEO
5:12 it is a tail track lol it’s beyond the terminus goofy
shuttle terminals shouldn’t count as the trains are just moving back and forth
You don’t like city hall terminus is bcuz they can’t go beyond it? It’s still a good terminal there is no reason for the 6 to go beyond city hall anyways
That comment is a LIE no subways is best take a look at Chamber Steet station the j line disuseding been like that the late 50s & 60s it needs a make over Walls- Light - sighs and there's no Elavders the worst subway station in n.y.c.
179 is trash because of the train storage on the tail tracks. I think 2 trains can sit on the relay tracks.
2 trains upstairs, 1 train downstairs
@@Librashubby 179th Street station and train storage can hold 8 trains on the upper level, and 4 tracks on the lower level.
Welcome back brother man.
8:08 9:16
kings highway on the F?
179th St. There are no other answers.
Umm…
bro why are uploading so damn infrequently like do you not care at all lmao
YEA FR
He has a life.
14 union sq has to be there worst on the L
Worst video explanation on NYC Subway ever ,🤪
Why do you say this about this vid?
Bro. WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN
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