Waki Gatame
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- Опубликовано: 8 сен 2024
- Waki Gatame is a common traditional Japanese JJ technique. Does it work?
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I've seen waki gatame technique in old judo competition's from the 70s and it worked well in competition.
It also works in Tomiki Aikido competitions, very effective.
Yeah you can show pretty much any technique compliantly, then show it with resistance and it not work. Try this with O Goshi, hell even ko soto gari or even some aikido techniques. You practice the concept in a compliant setting, add resistance, then apply it dynamically when the opportunity presents itself. You are rarely going to pull off a technique against a prepared opponent without it being hidden in a combo, feint, or as a counter.
Yeah, you probably aren’t going to get a wakigatame from standing nose-to-nose inside your partner’s workspace…but you aren’t likely to get a jujigatame from there either.
@@hussaf1 I'm guessing based on what you wrote reading comprehension is not your strongest point, thats okay I'll help you out, both people above you wrote about this technique working in competitions, competitions mean people using fighting back not standing around waiting for you to apply the technique.
Also the guy above you mentioned Tomoki Aikido and you instantly made an assumption that it was your usual run of the mill aikido that dont test their stuff. Had you done some research you'd see they actually spar and have legitimate competition.
@@Projectdarksource I think he is on your side and there is a slight misunderstanding. If the person knows what you are going to do he can neutralize or counter. You have to set it up and take his balance. When people expect the attack they under commit. When you are squared up face to face you have to move off line or use tsugi ashi to be in the correct mai space.
Shinya Aoki did it standing in a mma match, was so fast an brutal, his opponent just lay on the ground with an arm broken and immense pain. Takes to be a damn savage to doit on a competition
There is a reason why waki gatame is illegal in judo competitions. Reason is: it Works very well. Too Many arms broken...
It's not illegal though. If you mean standing all standing joint locks are banned
@@kaim2437 it is illegal standing. Used to be legal
@1:17, is not about pulling the arm out, it’s about having a response to when uki reaches out or you otherwise trick them into doing so. Another really good setup for this is to push the opposite shoulder.
hey, nice seeing you here
When I did Ninjutsu (yes, laugh it off), during sparring I’d set it up as a Tai Otoshi. Uke would step back and make space for Waki Gatame. It worked very well and when I transitioned to Judo it still worked, but of course I wasn’t “allowed” to do the technique. haha
@@ricksterdrummer2170 Interesting, I'm going to try this.
@@NYTomiki wait, but what was your grip? I can't picture in my head what you do
Although is very difficult, of course it works! I've managed to pull both waki gatame and the aikido version (hiji kime osae) several times in BJJ during the sparrings, most commonly in grappling.
HOWEVER, what I think it works is the technical principle behind the technique itself. For instance, my way of getting to waki gatame/hiji kime osae, is baiting uke with my hands; threatening uke with one of my hands near his shoulder or head so he grabs my wrist (specially in grappling), then the waki gatame's elbow strike to place my arm on the opponent's elbow and control the arm.
I can say it works, at least for me, but it works!
Nice video sensei! 🙇🏻♂️
Watch the Wally Jay Small Circle videos. He can make it work from a clinch. No problem. Heart 2.
Would it work against a striker or in a street situation?
@@Kthomasritchieif its a street fight u domt have to worry about falling on his arm and breaking it that would be a more desired outcome can even do a tai otoshi throw with the waki gatame grip on his arm wich will either make him fall on his knee and hand where u can drop ur weight and finish the arm or he'll fall face first amd u can still finsih it even better if hes still concious fighting back
The worry is actually successfully pulling the technique off. @@tharealchevy
If I might add. And I’m in no way commenting negatively on your waza. The problem with waki is there are so many things to mess up, and it was never meant to be a standing hold. It’s a transition hold to take UKE to the ground and secure him. Common errors. When you bring your elbow over the top you have to clamp UKE elbow, much the same way we put our knees together for juji. Put your own elbow close against your body. You must be standing sideways to UKE. Your shoulders must be in a straight line. Do not stand close to UKE or touch his torso with yours. The closer UKE arm is to his body, the stronger he is. The more you move his arm away from his body, the weaker he is. You move sideways away from UKE. Do not lean. That takes the pressure off. Lower your body straight down putting weight on the elbow joint. Either take him into a face down position and apply more pressure. Or in serious combat, drop your body into a kesa position and break his arm. Love your channel. Blessings to all.
In my Dojo (Jujitsu, to be more precise.), This technique is the one of most commonly use for submission while standing by using bodyweight drop down the opponent to the ground and then apply the pressure.
Safe & Effective.
@@merziinarie6266 Agreed!💮
@@merziinarie6266 at times like this I remind myself why it’s best for me to say nothing. I never should have posted anything and I never will again. I will simply say there’s nothing safe about this move if done in randori or shiai or combat. There’s a reason judo banned it. But I’m not saying anymore and I apologize for speaking at all.
@@Mtripp005 Yeah, like Ashi-Garami and leg grab techniques...
(imo,) IJF ban all of standing Kansetsu-waza because of dynamic in game.
I mean it'll be easier to land someone back to the ground by including other techniques which force opponent go toward direction we wish.
Sound like Kuzushi, isn't it? But it's more harmful.
And you know? Judoka are more aggressive than BJJ practitioner.
They like to do suddenly hard pull or push.
The point is...
Every techniques are never 100% safe to attempt. But you can make them safe enough to use in randori (although it may decrease how effective techniques are.)
I think the problem is when it's demonstrated in isolation. Aoki sets it up with clinches and hip bumps, as do others who are successful with this technique and variations. It's not as effective as a single technique as others that are either simpler or more effective on their own.
Shintaro having learned the judo version of this is missing aspects of the foot work and the transfer (The Scoop and The Step as we call them). The main thing, is that you can't do it from that far away. Even Aoki does it from the clinch... and he isn't really doing waki gatame imo. However he uses his torso instead of his shoulders, which is more advantageous than what Shintaro is demonstrating here.
By Scooping the arm down during the transfer from the 2 hand grip to the waki gatame position, you get more leverage (using your whole body) and you prevent under rotating the arm (here George's arm isn't fully rotated so his elbow isn't pointing straight up its at an angle)
The Step replaces the pull Aoki uses to get control of the arm (and arguably changes the technique because it is a horizontal application not a vertical one). By stepping during the scoop, you gain the mechanical advantage to forcibly extend and rotate their arm into position.
I think you missed a big point about this technique, it’s useful with an opponent who over commits with their reach which does happen a lot in criminal assaults. It’s not uncommon for someone in a fit of rage grab a victim by the throat. That’s the context that Helio Gracie taught it in.
I once saw Rusty Kanakogi use this technique and she dropped down from a standing position. She was a groundbreaking and great Judoka. Thanks Mr. Higashi.
Like you said here, it’s not very effective compared to other grips and in order for it to have an effect you need to snap it. I am not a grappler but I train this in empty hand against the knife, as one of many options from some sort of two-on-one, where you have already committed to controlling the weapon arm and can’t afford to release that control to attack the hip or a leg. It has its place in certain situations and only for a moment in time. Context doesn’t have to be one on one either, this can be two guys attacking the guy with the weapon.
Waki gatame is just not very effective as a submission, at least not from standing. It is, however, extremely effective as a breaking technique.
It's battlefield jujutsu. Not for sport.
shinya aoky aplied it in a mma fight
@@NarcJ Yep. Vs. James Wisniewski I believe. Pretty sure Shintaro mentioned that in the video as well. Also note that he destroyed his opponent's arm doing it. It was not a sub, but a quick break, with no chance for Wisniewski to tap. Which is exactly my point. It's a destruction. Not a submission.
@@hardcaliber19 If its did work who cares? (Except by the victm)
@@NarcJ I think you're missing my point.
The organization cares too. That's why Rousimar Palahares is banned from the ufc. You can't just go around snapping people's arms or tearing apart knees, and expect to stay employed. You're ending people's careers and potentially crippling them for life.
I'm not arguing that this technique is ineffective. It is very effective. But not good for sports. MMA is a sport. Not war. This is a technique for war.
@@hardcaliber19 no you can tear limbs at will, like Aoki or Jon jones shoulder crank the organizations donts give a sh1t (fighters are disposables), Palhares problem is do it while opponent are tapping.
You wouldn’t just go for a lock or even a throw in a street situation right off the bat. That is why Kano Sensei said that it’s important to learn atemi waza before you do randori. Strikes are also a very powerful way to set up kuzushi when properly applied.
Goh Hinogami from Virtua Fighter uses this move!
Yep! Elbows them in the face to gets his nearby arm over the shoulder. That way he can throw his whole weight on the body bringing them down. Is that how it works? doubt it. I'll err on the side of Shintaro Sensei and believe it to be impractical.
Standing, there is definitely a lack of control, but on the ground, I find it to be underused. It's an easy transition from kesa gatame whenever uke's trying to push your face away, or on someone scrambling to avoid getting his back taken. Waki Gatame is so rare these days that when you go for it, people don't realize they are in danger.
I had a coach that did this several times in competition. Off the initial grip. The key was extending them,getting that elbow over and circling away from opponents free hand side,dropping level as you go, and sitting through as you reach the mat.
Ive used Waki Gatame a number of times mostly standing and a few times on the ground and it worked very well every time, not in any sporting type situation but in real street altercations, so yes i can confirm it works.....
Dude waki gatame works very well. Actually just practiced yesterday with a 6 Dan sensei. It really depends on what type of attack you are faced with.
The technique is taught in Japanese Jujutsu, Taijutsu, Taiho-Jutsu, Judo and other Japanese grappling arts. It’s effective in arresting people as well. The main way to do it, is to take the person down with you. Put all your body and weight against the arm and they go down with you. But you will have the dominant position. Never practice this at full pace. Because you can easily break that persons arm. Only when needed, can and shall you use it.
Thanks for the video. I realy like your channel. Though, I don't think it's about working. There's a lot modern martial arts technics that only works in competitions, and this doesen't mean working at all. For me, the point is: this technics are HISTORY alive. We can't let this die (stop training it) just because it doesn't work, whatever that means.
I love to see a judo sensei that is really honesto about this. I know a few that I really respect that are all day "waki gatame and kote gaeshi" but taking the back is way more realistic. I love Goshin Kata and I practice it alone but if my life is in danger I´ll go for simpler grappling techniques.
Please do a judo book recommendation video
in traditional ju jitsu kata it is shown against somebody holding you, not hitting you.
I personally hit the waki gatame position from 2 on 1 / arm drag positions. Worst case scenario, I have access to their back.
*I do not grab the wrist with both hands though* : When I'm behind, I use my forearms by their biceps (underhook) and their wrist (overhook) to keep the partner's arm locked onto my chest. I keep moving and apply pressure with a circular movement.
From there, it is not difficult to switch for an overhook over the biceps/underhook under the wrist to apply waki gatame. *But honestly it is just so much easier just to use it in combination with back takes or pick ups* .
Thank you Sensei! All respect!❤
It really works great high percentage when you lock your left foot into uke’s pelvis
I think the best use of this technique is when someone goes in for a prison style stabbing. I.e. Knife in right hand, left hand lapel grab, which is one of the more common forms of knife attack
It works if you’re way stronger than the person you’re doing it to. Or maybe as a transitional position
The problem with Wake Gatame is that if done by itself, it's very easy to circle around but on the other hand it is affective with the assistant on a wall or table, something to stop his body from moving.
I use this is Newaza all the time
Yes, it works! I’ve used it effectively in full contact MMA sparring.
In order for this move to work, it requires that the aggressor keep pushing against you with a straight arm, an then you can grab and pull him (like a Bouncer pushing you out from a club), or when someone grab a long woman's hair from the front
We train it in Gracie Combatives which is focused towards fighting punchy untrained guys. It seems like if you catch it in the street, you’re more than likely to break his arm.
This is one of a number of very solid old school joint locks. It’s a breaker. The kuzushi(s) associated with it (them ) are crucial and inseparable. Not having command over them will end in a poor execution and a messy outcome. But unless it is shutdown immediately, the Uke should tap as fast as possible. And that is why they don’t get used in combat sports.
Super situational, like when they're reaching or attempting a standing rape choke with straight arms... which basically never happens with a trained opponent, but as you demonstrated, it's fairly easy to get the position by shucking a collar tie into the russian tie but 9/10 times it's better just to go to the back from there. Basically, it's a great takedown entry, and a low percentage sub.
I was able to get that in ne waza starting with a "head lever" wrestling move
This may work against an attacker which is trying to grab your shirt (self defense). This attacker will expose the arm to try or to accomplish the grab. Maybe in that moment you can grab him and rotate.
Waki gatame does work, my Aikido sensei taught me that technique and is very effective.
I haven't ever trained waki gatame so I'm speaking from ignorance here, but from the videos of WG in used in competition it does seem like it might be an answer for an opponent who has a fixation on getting a lapel grip on you.
It is the maybe in the top 3 most-effective standing submissions, but it is not a lot to say.
I did Korean hapkido and it can work. The problem? You have to commit. A lot. And training an arm braking technique is too dangerous.
But if you manage to train it safely and often, it is another technique in your arsenal.
Did you do any actual sparring with standing armbars in hapkido?
@@cerotidinon experienced people did. And you learn to tap immediately and by voice, and people learned to release immediately
@@ETiDeQuenVesSendo No offense, but referring to experienced people is always a bit problematic. I've got a second dan in hapkido myself and I must say that very often techniques only work, because the other one is (unconsciously) expecting the movement and compliant.
I did training with beginners and it is really hard to apply this technique if the other one is quite stiff. It works as a combination with a wrist lock, but only in a no-punch, grappling-only, 70% power scenario. I would be interested in combinations on how to create good situations when punches are allowed.
PS: If someone does the technique well you either go to the ground or it was so fast that your arm is broken. Tapping while standing in competition doesn't make sense to me.
@@cerotidinon I admit it wasn't 100% sparring. We used mixed rules depending on protection gear or not. I know hapkido's weaknesses and how compliant people can be.
But,
If you search for Aikido sparring, you can find people competing in a mixture of Kyokushin karate with elbow locks and wrist locks. Waki gatame is currently taught by the Gracies in their Blue belt self defense system. I think waki gatame, or it's belly-version, can be used as a low percentage technique in GI grappling systems or even Sambo. It's a defense against a grab to the chest. I said, it's.a good standing submission, but standing submissions are not the best.
@@ETiDeQuenVesSendo I suppose you mean this one? ruclips.net/video/wmYTFmV_IX8/видео.html
That seems to be quite similar to what I did in my dojo, but still quite grappling-oriented.
In my opinion, the actual use of those standing techniques is in a semi-escalated self-defense situation. That is, the other one is already attacking you / grabbing you, but he isn't all-out punching. There you are able to apply those techniques in a sufficiently controlled manner. But for being able to do this "statically" in such a situation, I think it's imperative to train it dynamically before.
So: Dynamic training - yes! Dynamic application - not so much.
Wasn’t it banned in comp because of arm breaks and elbow dislocations?
Didn't Peter Seisenbacher used to throw people with a nasty waki gatame / uchi mata, back in the 1980s Olympics / world champions?
When I first saw this over a decade ago, I thought there's no way that will ever work. Wrong! I've lost track of how many people I've caught with it attacking turtle. Highly recommend adding it to one's game.
I've successfully pulled off wakigatame on the ground and standing. Granted, your opponend has to be committed to a reach before it works well.
If you turn your palm down it all falls apart. As a bjj guy, this wouldnt work. But against untrained guys, getting someone to bend over at the waist, at a great angle could be devastating and open infinite possibilities for a skilled judoka!
Might be a good door-opener? There's techniques in bjj and muay Thai that try to achieve those positions. Nothing wrong with experimenting 🤷🏻♂️
As a bjj guy your in no position to say what works on the feet
Waki gatame works just fine. That’s why it was banned. It was too effective at breaking arms of trained high level judoka. But it’s hard to apply slowly to allow for the tap.
It was mainly used on guys who over committed to a high collar grip
@@holdenmuganda97 yes exactly I was thinking it would also be pretty effective from a Russian tie
@@doritodip8410 w..what? No position? I described myself as a "bjj guy" for the context of the comment. I wouldn't tell a judoka they are In "no possition" to say what will or won't work on the ground, that would be stupid.
I've trained in pleanty of stuff on the feet too, whatever that is even supposed to mean? And even if Hadn't, bjj DOES start standing up, you do know that; right? Most bjj gyms teach judo or wrestling or both alongside the class, especially the No-Gi/mma guys. I think they're more qualified than you think.
My comment was referring the fact that this is like the motion of an armbar, and bjj instincts on having your arm maneuvered like that (yes, even quickly and yes even on the feet) will stop you from getting caught properly by it.
I gave my thoughts, my "comment" you might even say from 9+ years of bjj and wrestling (in mma) and about 3 years of judo. Much more than that of striking arts, since that's "on the feet" and there's somewhat similar grappling in Muay thai (that look I referenced in my comment).
But hey, if you say I'm in no position, I guess I'm in no position eh?
@@holdenmuganda97 any actual source or record of this? It doesn't really look like the kind of thing with enough pressure to suddenly break an arm with an instant snap. I do imagine it could cause some pretty bad hyperextension.
Love the shoutout to Shinya Aoki
Sensei got that Kevin Gastelum bod!
Shinyo Aoki often landed this move by getting an underhook, then waited for his opponent to try a counter with an overhook, then trap the hand in his armpit and apply the waki gatame. You can see him demonstrate it here. ruclips.net/video/wkGSPn_yoLA/видео.html
I hit this from a sit out position all the time try iy
It sucks as an standing armlock technique, perfect as an arm breaking technique. But tbh, standing armlock rarely works, unless you put sudden pressure into them and turned them into arm breaking techniques. You want to lock someone's joints ? Put them on the ground first
We just learned this technique as a hair grab defense.
What if you drop down and put your opponent on their stomach during a waki gatame? Shall we name it waki gatame otoshi?
If you want to learn how to apply this study Fujiwara
Traditional martial arts don't really teach this one. They teach the straight armbar where you grab the wrist with one hand and break the elbow with your other forearm.
In aikido we put our elbow on his elbow to push to break it. You are doing a judo sport version designed to fatigue the opponent and prolong the fight. I do not have any advice for sports only combat. In aikido we use it as knife defense and do many things different and have a much different position to opponent. They way you and placed is designed to protect opponent to make legal for sports. It is squishy and nerfed.
Aikido calls this rokkyo, jujitsu calls this hiji kime osae or literally arm breaking. Rogue Warriors calls this hiji shime. The technique was originally designed to break the arm and disarm a tanto.
Isnt this technique all but banned because of all the arms its broken in high level comp?
MERCI 👍
Works fine in seagull movies
You have to be a real rascal like Aoki to sleep at night after doing this
Nice … but Imo you are looking at with the wrong premise. And Being a judo ka… makes sense how you looking at. That said… look at the arm-bar in a strikers viewpoint. You remove your defense against a strike pulling you hand in.
Which is the whole point (with striking ma’s … so its defend against the arm bar and possibly get hit, leading to other combos
It’s a lock people should know it.
Waki Gatame does work tho, it main purpose is to broke someone shoulder on the ground.
Wasnt this technique banned in competition?
But does it work in a street fight
It's an armbar.
Idc if it works I just like the name lol
You would use this technique if you need to isolate an arm armed with a knife. You'd need to set it up through your Footwork!!! on a counter-movement and Not by bumping into your opponent as if you are about to give him a fellatio.
Which leads us to the posture: the technique is obviously meant to generate multiple points of control on one arm, it's hard to generate those safely if you are in "I'm ready for double penetration" stance.
So overall. I don't like the technique for my own reasons, but even I could not Butcher it as much as it has been in this video.
Against a fist bump, it looks very cool, but it's fake if that works.
0:15 I think that "HARA" must be closer... hip to hip.
Is it the same for Hara Gatame?
It's similar. In Hara Gatame you lock the elbow against your stomach instead of against your side / armpit.
@@Stephen_Curtin i know that, but thank you!
@@damianodidomenico4756 sorry I misread your question. I thought you asked "Is it the same as Hara Gatame". My bad.
Kontent
It's wacki.
NO SUCH THING as "Japanese Jiu Jitsu" ... it's jutaijutsu ...
Not god technical video