How Far Can Sauron See?
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- Опубликовано: 25 июл 2018
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In Lord of the Rings, Sauron was represented by the Great Eye or Eye of Barad-dûr, but how actually vast was his sight? Kyle takes a closer look on this week's Because Science!
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Learn more:
• VISUAL ACUITY: bit.ly/2LMrDtb
• ANGULAR RESOLUTION: bit.ly/2mM7uZv
• VISION AND DIFFRACTION: bit.ly/2LliziR
• ANGULAR SIZE CALCULATOR: bit.ly/2NJDo4e
• ANGULAR RESOLUTION EXAMPLES: bit.ly/2NHQWgn 
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Thanks for watching! Today's episode is my 200th for Because Science. Thanks to everyone who has made it possible, subscribed, watched it, commented on it, shown it in class, reached out to me about it, everything over the years. It's a real labor of love -- very hard on me but an undeniable passion. Thank you. - KH
We love what you do!
Tell nerdist to give you a break Kyle. You work too hard! :-)
Oh yeah, congrats on the 200th episode.
Keep the eye of the tiger,
but take a break if you go: I don't feel so good .
Work hard play hard we won't mind:)
in the movies the Eye seems to either be surrounded by fire or be made out of fire, wouldn't that interfere? also considering the sheer distance Sauron would be able to see, it should make it hard to stay focused too thanks to how many different things could be happening so having such a long range where Sauron can see would probably make it harder for him to actually find what he is looking for. on top of that there is the fact that Mordor must have volcanic activity otherwise how could the One Ring be destroyed by throwing it in the lava? and volcanic activity usually means airborne ash and other debris along with possible smoke. and airborne debris means possible irritants that would make it hard for Sauron to actually focus due to stuff getting in his eye.
middle earth is flat
If Sauron's eye was an actual eye it would not be able to see at all, as eyes do not work when they're on fire.
Dr. Zoidberg It is also not connected to a brain. People need brains to use eyes. - Kappa. -
Woop woop woop woop woop woop
says who? ;P
Sings "this eye is on fire"
I don't really expect dr zoidberg to understand human biology
"What does your Flaming Eye see?"
"Everything within 70km. And I do mean absolutely everything."
"What about that hobbit breaking into your volcano of doom?"
"WHAT?! WHERE!!!"
Accurate
FFFFUUUUUUUUUU
Tunnel visioooooon
Well, Sauron was more interested in Aragorn than a puny hobbit :P
I think that's why they attacked Mordor to get his attention.
Sauron the most feared stalker of middle earth
"Those two Dwarves are going bareback again....If I had hands I'd gouge out my eye."
He still doesn't read your email.
Ex Umbra what do mean sir?
Ex Umbra are you a hacker?
It's a meme. Search "goodguy Sauron". ;)
Example:
i.redditmedia.com/cxTDsfLMwQojDVPpmfCKyl25YjvomsHFsicMmMhmv88.jpg?s=707eabf9c9445b38db576c33a98e1583
Where would Frodo and Sam be safe you ask?
Behind a rock
notKARTHIK. Actually if they always wore a full-body niqab with one of those crazy spiral optical illusions on them Sauron would feel uncomfortable looking at them, and would send some blind orcs to burn that shit. However, if EVERYONE had a niqab with optical illusions on them, including the orcs probably stupid enough to let an eagle with a niqab do an air delivery of a niqab on them, he would tell the orcs to kill everyone with a niqab and civil war erupts as the orcs murder each other. Frodo & Co could then just take their niqabs off and wait until the dust settles, when all the inhabitants of Mordor have killed each other so Mount doom is left unguarded. Easy victory.
(Obviously joking)
notKARTHIK. What if they closed there eyes
If they can't see sauron, sauron can't see them
@@teli6350 What drugs have you been doing?
Its not just a boulder its a rock :)
Sauron: It feels like someone is... TRYING TO DESTROY MY RING!
Sam and Frodo, behind a rock: I knew he was onto us!
Pretty good eyesight, but can he see through the lies of the jedi?
SuperMissigNo can he see why kids love the taste of cinnamon toast crunch?
Can he see where elder scrolls 6 will take place?
Can he see when Half-Life 3 will be released?
I wonder if he can see John Cena.
Welcome to the Void -- whoops, wrong universe.
So what your saying is Sauron wasted an amazing gift ... instead of studying the stars and the cosmos he spent his time looking at a small circle of ground to find a ring... sad really and very ..pft short sighted
Chris Jensen ha!!! This comment is gold 🥇 lol.
i think the sky in mordor is covered in smoke and clouds 24/7
But Sauron's gaze pierces clouds. ;)
Chris Jensen Lol Sauron was there helping create those stars, why would he study them now from Earth?
BlackDiablo And still people think global warming is fake. Sauron could have ruled Middel earth for centuries if he'd been more careful and eco-friendly with his military production, but no... Man's gotta build a mighty army to conquer the planet by force, instead of using... idk, his eye sight.
"In a world without technology, with castles, and swords, and bows & arrows…"
…But, but, all those things are technology.
Shh... people in the past were stupid and we now know almost everything there is to know...
He meant our level of technology.
technology smechnology. We went down the skill tree that's killing us faster :D
I can't imagine how much of an overload his vision must be, since he can see 80 miles away in such incredible detail over such a wide field of view, and yet he is only a single eye so his poor depth perception would be a chaotic mess indeed
in Arda the planet is flat
6:45
😃👌
*One does not simply **_watch Because Science without feeling awesome_* .
So true
here's your 300th like
Mezie Mbamara Well I guess Sauron would simply watch everything from his tower; because science
i was expecting you to draw sauron's vision radius on the middle-earth map
>:0 *ME TOOOOOO*
Same
Mt. Doom is 80 miles from Barad-Dur so his eye would just be able to see anything inside of Mordor and that's it.
At a distance of 130 km Sauron will even have a much bigger problem making out tiny details because of atmospheric scattering do to heat.
Because of the heat of the earth, when you see in a distance, even if it is a kilometer or 2, you can see things moving because the heat that is being radiated by the earth is warping the light around.
Because of that, objects close to ground will be much harder to see then objects of the ground.
With that in mind if would actually be better to move to Mordor by ground in stead of the air.
If an eagle would fly towards Mordor it would be instantly noticed at 130 km.
But when you move on the ground you have a better change of getting close because the heat of the earth can cloak you from Sauron's sight.
true, though Mordor is still a very cold place, so even at ground level you don't have a lot to work with.
don't know if it would actually matter though.
I feel like there's probably a kind of reciprocity principle here where you can see Sauron's eye about as well as he can see yours
This is awesome.
@@alexgunning6910 i'd imagine there are many crevices you can go to to hide
I wanted to calculate what massive lens dilations sauron would have to do in order to focus on objects at different distances. Below I added the calculation (I hope I didn't forget anything) to the best of my ability.
First and foremost, I made a few assumptions. The 25 meter diameter of sauron's eye is for looking at objects far away (where the rays of light coming off of objects are in good enough approximation travelling parallel), which is also the size of the eye as we see it normally. I also assumed that the area of the cross-section of the lens would always be the same.
The lens is assumed to have the shape of a flying saucer, symmetrical.
Situation 1 is looking far away, situation 2 is looking close by
w is the diameter of the pupil (also assumed to be the diameter of the lens disc, 25 m for 1)
d is the thickness of the lens
A is the area of the lens cross-section
n is the refractive index of the lens (1.4)
o is the object distance (assumed infinite for 1, 40 m for 2)
p is the ratio between the diameter of the eye and the diameter of the pupil (determined using pixel ratios, found to be 1.857)
f is the focal length of the lens
R is radius of curvature of the lens, conform the lensmaker's formula. (1/f=(n-1)^2/n*d/R^2)
i is the image distance (distance between the center of the lens and the back of sauron's eye) It is assumed to be the same for situations 1 and 2
L is the distance between the centre of the eye and the centre of the lens
I will try to add the derivations to the best of my ability, but I doubt I'll be fully able to, in part because it requires envisioning stuff. If you want something clarified, just ask.
To find w2, the equation A2=A1 needs to be solved.
The edge of the cross-section of the lens is assumed to be a part of a circle, to fit the lensmaker's formula. If you draw a wedge between the centre of this circle and the top and bottom of the lens, A is equal to the difference between the area of the wedge if drawn
with a straight line between the top and bottom of the lens or
a line following the circle.
The former has area 1/2R^2*sin(theta), the latter 1/2R^2*theta
A=R^2*(arcsin(1/2*w/R)-1/2*w/R)
Using the lensmaker's formula, an expression for R can be derived:
R=f*d*(n-1)^2/n
wherein
d=R*(1-cos[1/4*w/R]) (the difference between the heights of the different wedges mentioned before.
f1=i, since the incoming light travels parallel
f2=i*o2/(i+o2) following the lens formula
The image distance is equal to the radius of the eye (not the radius of curvature of the lens) + L
The radius of the eye (Reye) can be found using the known width of the pupil and the ratio between the height of the pupil and the height of the eye itself.
L can be found using pythagoras' theorem, where Reye^2=L^2+(1/2*w1)^2
i=1/2*w1*(p + sqrt[4 - p^2])
o2 was chosen at 40 m, as that is how close someone standing on top of the tower directly below his eye would be.
Plugging in the numbers, to focus on something 40 m away, sauron would have to decrease his pupil to a miniscule...
*initiate drumroll*
23.5 m? What?
Sooo... maybe not as much as I expected. This seems kinda plausible actually. Dammit.
Why do you juste comment this instead of doing a video about it ? This is super cool
Dang thats a heck of a comment
bro just taught a whole science class inna comment
What a waste of time to write such a long comment like me when I see people acting direct and indirectly patronizing to me when I simply state my thoughts on things.
r/theydidthemonstermath
You would need one hell of a brain to process that amount of visual information. To be so precise as to see an eye chart at 70km would mean receiving and deciphering information of quadrillions of cone cells, and all of them specifically enough to make out that sharp image...
I want to see Saurons brain...
sacr3 it probably is the whole tower of Baradur.
I had the same thought. But I was thinking of it as more a matter of focal area.
Our vision, even at a close distance, can only ascertain the fine detail of a small percentage the entire field of our vision.
The analogy would be using a telescope. With a strong one you can pick out some details on the surface of a foreign planet. But that area of detail is such a minuscule percentage of the observable "surface" at the same distance from us that it would be terrible difficult (or time consuming) to find by scanning the entire sky.
I think that Sauron's "eye" must have a "nose" so that he can know where abouts to even look.
Well, Sauron is canonically a genius, so this isn't too much of a stretch.
The Defenestrator and Mordor is hot because it is its cooling system
Bernat BB. It's confirmed. Sauron was using magic to transform all of Arda into a Matrioska brain. A world sized brain.
Sauron would have looked badass with a monocle 🧐
Flawless Garage and a twirly moustache underneath it...
and english accent and a top hat
GongsunXin Oh dear, you jolly fellows(hip) seem to have destroyed the one ring! What a terrible shame that such a priceless artefact should fall into the Plebian grasp of you colossal buffoons.
We're sorry Sauron.
Good day.
But...
I SAID GOOD DAY SIR
ahahaah
Sauron with a monocle sounds pretty dangerous. Like a supersized magnifying glass right in front of the sun. Just a giany death beam.
But at what distance could he see into the hearts of men?
50 ft
The Shadow knows.
Gaming Gumba like the evil queen jadis from the chronicles of narnia
😂
@@daverhoden445 I understood that reference
If Sauron's eye is a representation of his spirit and will, then it is Sauron's stand.
Za eyeo
*[Ai of Za Taiga]*
Love the show. I'm glad my teenage nerdiness is about to pay off.
Tolkien originally thought of Arda, ~Middle Earth, as a flat world. For instance, the sun and moon travel through tunnels underneath the world. Tolkien went back and forth on this point, but the published Silmarillian used this interpretation.
So I was curious what Sauron's resolution would be if we drop the horizon limitation. I ballparked the distances.
Horizon limit = 130 km = 3.1 mm
Minas Tirith = 160 km = 3.8 mm
Edoras = 640 km = 15.5 mm
Lorien or Isengard = 850 km = 20 mm
Shire = 1530 km = 37 mm 1.5 inches
So Sauron has better resolution in the Shire than the best Google Map images (15 cm according to Wikipedia). He could definitely tell if Pippin ever found out where it comes in pints. He might even be able to distinguish a smile from a frown like some evil Santa eye in the sky.
I thought just the seas - not the land - were remade and rounded after the Númenóreans sent their fleet to the Undying Lands. I've seen a lot of comments that the whole world was rounded though so I may have misinterpreted it. It's been a while. Also, forgive any spelling issues, I was in jury duty while I wrote that post.
Evil santa eye in the sky. I'm dying. Hahaha
Later, after the fall of Numenor, the exiles found that the earth was spherical.
@@peterszyszkiewicz5445 Eru flipped it back but made it so that Numenor would stay where it was in round position making it at the bottom of everything
*_The question I didn't think I needed answered until now..._*
This may be my favorite episode yet because of the quality of all the puns.
Only one eye though so no depth perception :^)
Toa Onua underrated
-aside from knowing how large objects are.
True but I can still see pretty well with only one eye open. With an eyesight better than an eagle I don't think depth vision really matters, plus depth perception is mostly for hunting by determining exact distance to prey. Many animals and mostly herbivores don't have depth perception because their eyes are on separate sides on the body
This is very true, which is why my comment was largely in jest
Toa Onua imagine if his eye was short sighted
The eagles wouldn't make it into Mordor safely. The Nazgûl with their flying mounts, Orcs, other unknown servants and Sauron himself would have successfully attacked them long before they made it into Mt. Doom. The Eagles were unwilling to fly too close to men's homes along the Anduin in The Hobbit for fear of injury. They might have outright denied the request for aid in the interest of self preservation as the Ents had considered. The whole point of the Army of the West's march through Ithilien and the final battle before the Black Gate was purely to distract Sauron as Frodo and Sam approached Mt. Doom.
Additionally, to get very nerdy, it's entirely possible that the Valar would forbid the eagles from doing so. The giant eagles are servants of Manwe and descendants of beings similar in power and essence to Balrogs, Maiar or Ents(Tolkien is a bit vague on this in published works). They would logically be restricted from taking direct action in the quest to destroy the ring as were the Istari. The Valar see the ring as "The mortals of Middle Earth" problem and only wish their emissaries to guide and aid, but not take direct action themselves. If the Eagles fly the ring to Mt. Doom to be destroyed because Gandalf asked them to, it is only steps away from the Valar doing it themselves.
also the ring is as dangerous as the power o his bearer, so it would be absolutely insane if you give it to the eagles
In your list of beings similar to the power of the giant eagles you mentioned Ents, which were far weaker. The greatest of the first eagles was Thorondor, who injured Morgoth, and had a wingspan of nearly 200 feet. He was, as you said, a servant of Manwe, and before Manwe had told him to take that form he was a Maia of roughly the same stature as Gandalf. The Ents were created by the thought of Illuvatar because of Yavanna's request for a protecter of the trees after her husband Aule crafted the dwarves in his impatience for the Elves and Men to awake. Therefore, the Ents were of a strength sufficient that they could kill dwarves with impunity, but nowhere near the level of the Maia.
The real question is what was more likely to succeed...yes, it's possible that the Eagles, even one of them, might not get past a Nazgul (though they weren't really flying at beginning)...but in terms of the logics of a story, it's far more likely and much more controllable to do it HISHE style. So only real limit, was as Tolkien wrote, was that they were an ex machina in the story, to be used sparingly.
simply have the bird with a flying saddle, put the ring on a mithril chain and have it where it can be sliped onto and off of the birds talon. once the bird is effectively wearing the ring...(shudder here at the thought if it escaping) you could fly high enough to possibly escape detection (provided cloud cover and time of day and geographic position) you could theoretically pull it off.
Also the poisonous ash cloud would have killed them if not for the ring having already been cast into mt. Doom, and Sauron's magic undone.
Well, this was an eye-opening episode.
[WUT] Magna lol
[WUT] Magna eye c what you mean
Something to *LOOK* toward to in the future.
Gimli was tossed at helms deep not osgiliath
Ty for posting this in my stead :D
Yea, what Antharis said.
Think he was just saying it for comedy effect, rather than just saying, you'd be able to see me at osgiliath
Osgiliath is apparently 10 miles from Minas Tirith. Now taking a Middle-Earth map and employing the tried and true technique of "eyeballin' it", that seems like half the distance from Osgiliath to Minas Morgul (i.e. ~20 miles). Morgul itself, looks to be around four times further from Barad-Dur, than it is Osgiliath (~80 miles). All together, that puts Osgiliath ~100 miles from Barad-Dur and the Eye of Sauron, or - for those of us, less Imperially inclined - ~160km. So there you have it, Gimli is safe... especially since Helm's Deep is over three times further (according to that trusty ole' eyeball again, somewhere around 320 miles-ish from Barad-Dur)
I love the jokes and goofiness. It's all totally dorky but totally authentic and entertaining, and edited well to keep the momentum going about the actual subject. I'm afraid to know how many hours I've spent watching these videos, and I only discovered this channel yesterday.
So what? The Lord of the Rings, probably the most famous fantasy novel ever written, is just a regular old game of hide and seek but set on Nightmare difficulty?
And about the eagles, I never heard it be suggested that they should carry the whole Fellowship of the Ring to Mordor. What I've heard suggested is that they should carry Frodo and throw both him and the ring into Mount Doom to be sure.
The eagles would be noticed and attacked by drakes or orcish anti-air weapons (catapults, ballistas, that sort of thing). The plan required them to sneak all the way to Mt Doom to avoid an encounter with the giant army that was there. Once the ring was destroyed and Sauron defeated, the eagles were free to fly into Mordor and take everyone back home.
Osmium if there was such an anti air defence, why wasn't it used when they came in for the rescue? Yes there would be some disarray when Sauron "died" but not everyone would geryon the message su the same time. And top hgey to the volcano precisely when needed they would have top be dispached well before they were needed.
I'm sure a race of giant magical eagles can fly out of reach of any anti-air weaponry the Orcs might have and the drakes didn't seem to pose much of a threat to them either.
well, in the books it is said that saurons armys and the nazgul and their "drakes" are somehow "bound" to sauron and his will. and i guess it makes sense, sort of, if their will to fight and act and the reason to do so suddenly vanishes, that they dont act smart or strong and match the eagles. also, without the army fighting at the black gates saurons eye wouldnt be as focused on a certain event and could still search the plains of gorgoroth (because he feels somethings going on there?) and also maybe see the eagles from afar and "dominate" them somehow, not sure how exactly his "eye" or spirit works if you are gazed upon.
I am glad that kyle mentioned the magic and the spirit thing in the beginning btw.
oh and i remember to have read comments that claim that the eagles as a superior race (silmarillion and the valar/maya thing is complicated) can not or dont like to interfere with mortal problems and also are very proud and not easily conviced to do a suicide flight. also we have not much evidence of the giant eagles are actually capble of and if they could fly around or above mordor, with passengers on them.
Also i really like LoTR and especially enjoy reading the comment conversations here =)
Yeah, they don't interfere with mortal problems, okay, but Sauron is not only threatening mortals, he is not a "mortal problem", he is a Maiar threatening to corrupt the whole of Middle Earth. I think the Eagles would be smart enough to realize that. The reality of the thing is that Tolkien was writing a fable and was more interested in it being exciting and awesome than in covering up plot holes like the fact that the Eagles could have saved the day much earlier. No work of fiction is perfect and I love LotR just as much even if it has flaws.
Hey Kyle! Great video as always.
One quick thought about Snellen vision charts - did you know that the 'normal' value on those (ie 20/20 in the US, or 6/6 in the UK) is not the average vision in the population? It was based off the visual responses of Snellen's assistant, who was later found to have visual problems.
From that, it might be that if you based the vision of Sauron on a ratio of our eyes at 20/20 to his, in 'actuality' he probably would have even better vision, since the actual average was around the 20/18 or 20/15 mark!
I'm not even going to pretend to be able to do the maths for all that though - in the words of Bones, "I'm a doctor, man, not a physicist!"
This has got to be one of the best series I've ever seen. Just wow! Thanks so much!
Sauron have awesome eyesight but he can't be an all seeing eye with those two pillars on both sides to support his eye.
How big can be that blind spot?
No the eye is metaphorical,his actual body was destroyed in the numenarian island while imprisoned by half elves.
What you see in the movie isnt canon,it was metaphorical.
@@madscientistshusta He addressed that like 30 seconds in.
But Kyle, the eye of Sauron is just repres- oh wait never mind.
As for the eagle comment at the end, another reason is it is hard to sneak around on the back of a giant flying eagle. The eagles pretty much only surprise people that are already distracted by battle in the books anyways. And it is especially dangerous to be flying around when your enemy has units capable of flight that are also searching for you (hard to find a hiding spot in the middle of a fairly empty 3d space except for if you can find a big enough cloud of some kind) so they can kill you and take the ring to their master. Nicely presented episode, btw.
I was pleasantly surprised that this video actually got all the lore right. Nice going, Kyle!
Good grief you never cease to amaze. One does not simply explain science better than Kyle.
There should be a channel named "Because Magic "
I'd watch it -- KH
Now im wondering how it would work, like is it talking about cool magical systems or theorizing how those magicks would work? Taking from mythology and modern works etc?
or mixing them like Thor does and explain it that way? :v
5 second videos: How does ___ work? Because magic. Like. Comment. Subscribe.
This is great ammo for when someone suggests the "Eagles should carry Frodo to the volcano" thing. Aside from just "the Eagles aren't a taxi service" and "Sauron would see them", he would see them from literally miles away!
10:20 "In a universe without technology"... Lists off technological acomplishments ie metallurgy.
Yeah, he can see far, but Sauron has no depth perception, because he only has monocular vision
gordon thomas - I don't think he needs any depth perception. It's not like he's trying to drive a car or walk. Lol
This is exactly what I was going to say! Depth Perception is important so Sauron wouldn't be able to tell whether the Hobbits were Really close to Mordor or still in the Shire.
the same goes for games but we can still make out where things are by observation
No, depth perception is not a thing he needs at all. It's no different than looking through binoculars or a scope. You can tell the distance by the angle. Things close to the eye will be straight down. Things far away will be at the upper angles. If the eye has been looking out for years, then he pretty much knows where everything is. Go look out your window with one eye covered. You can still see how far away things are. Like if something is in your yard or if it's in the neighbors yard. No depth perception is needed.
well considering kyle mentioned saurons horizon being around osgiliath, then as a matter of fact he would not be able to see the shire at all.... because it's "little bit" further away from mordor ;)
What. Hold on a second. Ten times better than the Hubble space telescope?! Holy shit! That’s terrifying! Oh heck no...
What an amazing channel this is! Videos like this one make my jaw drop.
One of my favorite channels on RUclips! Great work KH!
Hey Kyle. Love the show.
Just a thing I thought of. You said Sauron’s eye was 1.4km up. At this height, he’d be above the lowest forming clouds, Cumulus clouds (the ones with the flat bottom, they form at 1km above the surface) meaning any time there was a rain cloud below his tower (they are on average 1km up and 1km across so let’s assume the cloud is centred on his tower, meaning it stretches out 0.5km from his tower), the land in a circle with radius 1.75km (using trig) around his tower would be invisible to him.
Also, the human eye has a near point of 25cm, meaning anything close than this cannot be focused on. If Sauron’s eye was to be analogous to a human eye, scaling it up would be a 8,333x scale, meaning his near point would be 2.085km away, so he would not be able to focus on any object closer than 2.085km. In my mind, this leaves Sauron incredibly vulnerable to any near attacks. Just saying.
(If I’m in footnotes, HI FUTURE ME!!! You made it!)
Elliot Smith UV light can go straight through rain clouds, so he probably uses that when clouds otherwise get in the way.
Elliot Smith This is an interesting comment. The cloud problem might be solved by UV, I don't know about that. About the near point, since his eye is 1.4 km high up, he would be able to see rather close on ground level (I estimate it to be somewhere around 1 km). My guess is that this is one of the reasons he keeps a large army close to his tower, since in a circle with a radius of 1 km, Sauron might not see as well as he could in the distance. If you could get an attack force within that circle Sauron might be "blind" for the attack. Very interesting thought, kudos.
I see legolas learned math and is now a youtuber.
1 yeah the curve on middle earth is the same as on earth on account of them being the same planet and all the earth curving happened before lotr (I’m not making that up)
2 I love that you qualify his line of sight as without mountains in the way which sucks because he literally lives in a giant mountain box
Hey Kyle, I've been thinking about how Thanos would kill off half the population of different bacteria that live inside intestines and stomach. Does he dust all the bacteria inside the living complex organism and didn't touch bacteria inside the other half or would he not bother and just kill 50% of the bacteria and germs in the world? And wouldn't the second way of extermination be dangerous(and probably deadly) for the survivors?
Thanos only killed 50% of intelligent life, so all bacteria would have been spared
But what is intelligent life?
@@koharumi1 Certainly not humans
That ammount of detail is nice, but what about field of vision? How much of Middle Earth would Sauron's eye be able to take in at any given time?
Also is a cat or snake eye
But what if the Eye doesn't really see in the spectrum of visible light - Hobits get invisble when putting on the ring - and Sauron can see them - but noone else. So it seems possible, that the hobbit might just be "shifted" in another wavelenght. Asuming that - and trying to use your equations: If the "colors of the hobit" where in a wavelength of 1000 nm he could see twice the detail. Also it would kinda explain both the invisibility AND the colors of the Eye AND the heat AND why sauron can see them suddenly when they put the ring on.
Pls correct me if I'm wrong.
It would also explain how, with the ring on, they can interact physically with the real world, simply because they're still present, but not at the same wavelength, so invisible to our human eye. But it has to downshift the wavelength in a way to respect the second law of thermodynamics and to not create an infinite amount of energy. If instead, it shifts you in the more energic wavelength, the ring would have to produce enough energy to shift every single photon reaching you. To me, it seems more probable that the ring act like an energy absorber, and then, all this energy absorbing could explain why the lord of the ring is so powerful.
So In your version the wavelenth would be lower ? Would that mean the Eye would see lower detail? (Not sure if I realy got the concept right)
In fact, if the frequency (ν) needs to be lower (meaning less energy E = hν), so the wavelength (λ) would become bigger, not lower. And since θ = 1.22λ/D, that means that his angular resolution would be bigger, and indeed, would see lower detail. This is what I think, I might do some mistake too...
love this -- KH
What if the "eye" is actually a half-wave dipole antenna and Sauron only perceives wavelengths between 45 and 55 metres? That'd wreck his angular resolution because that's 100,000,000 times that arbitrary visible wavelength, and it'd wreck his granular resolution too because he wouldn't be able to see anything at all if it was under 22 metres wide. Hmm. Perhaps he only perceives wavelengths greater than 2.1 Hobbits.
When Frodo and Sam arrived in Mordor it was cool to see Sauron scan the ground like a spotlight because he knew the ring was near
this was uploaded on my birthday, and I wanted to say I like the work you do here, it's everything I liked about game theory, number crunching and actual science without the "but what if *I* am the new five night at freddy's villain, but hey that's just a theory......."
For everyone who thinks middle earth is the planet, nope middle earth is like a continent the planet is named arda!
Maik Bam Middle Earth, Arda, Ea
Yep, and If I remember right, arda used to be flat but became round after the destruction of the two trees, right? forgive me, it's been a while since I touched the Silmarillion.
Mordor is on Pluto
oh so arda is round now?
Just what we need, round arda theories....
How good would Sauron's eye be at finding exoplanets? Move over James Webb!
Adam Lefloic likely not good due to the interference of the surrounding atmosphere
Finding exoplanets is finding periotical tiny dips in star brightness. I dont think Sauron would have the vision, skill or even time to do IT.
I want a new telescope named Sauron!
Shawn Pitman Such details would be impossible to see trough the atmosphere. There would be to much disturbances.
There's some good telescopes here on Earth ground.
The point, about atmosphere trouble, is the place. The Sauron should be placed in Hawaii's vulcans or Atacama, not Mordor, to be good.
And, for me, we can name a ground or space telescope "Sauron" and be fine.
As I understand it, one of the major reasons that the Eagles would not be a good idea for transporting the Ringbearer to Mordor would be that-as intelligent beings-they would themselves be susceptible to the temptation of the Ring.
That's not even considering the fact that Sauron did in fact have air defences around Mordor, never mind a bind of other arguments.
Kyle is the Doctor that writes my weekly Rx for Because Science. I just can't get enough! :D
But were all know only one thing is important... And it's that mitochondria is the powerhouse of the cell.
And its powers still pales in comparison to the power of the midichlorians.
Would the Jokers disappearing pencil magic trick work on Saurons eye?
That's one big pencil!
Congrats on 200 episodes!!!!
I think this video points out one of the reasons why they couldn't fly there by Eagle, Sauron would see them long before they were able to get to where they could dispose of the ring, and send the Nazgul to intercept them, or use his own magics to do so.
I just love the enthusiasm and passion you have, Kyle. The puns were on point and highly appreciated as I'm taking a break from job applications and this was just the video to watch to keep me laughing and engaged :)
Wouldn't smog limit his vision(insert Smaug joke here)? Mount Doom is an active volcano putting ash into the atmosphere would contribute to the air pollution, as well as all the smaller fires due to the industrialization around Mordor. I have flown around at 5000 feet (roughly 1500 meters) quite a bit in pilot training in Ohio and can't see much farther than about 45 miles. I would imagine that Mordor would have much more smog than Ohio.
not only that but plain atmosphere, wouldn't water from clouds and other gases obstruct or refract light?
Sauron can magically move all the smoke and clouds near him to avoid having such a situation. He can also probably see in several different wavelengths that are able to get past the smog particles.
Evan Nibbe if Sauron can see what’s going on at such epic distances, and has the brain to process that insane amount of information, then I don’t think it’s a stretch of the imagination for him to be able to see in different wavelengths.
Stephen Bastian he's a magical demigod, so no
Evan Nibbe Sauron actually is kind of capable of that... he covers the world in a literal darkness in order to shield his minions from the sun
@BecauseScience @KyleHill I'd love it if you could follow up this concept and extrapolate how high up Sauron's eye would have to be for him to survey the entire area of middle-earth.
I'm also interested what resolution he would get if he had line-of-sight to the farthest point on middle-earth from Barad-dur.
It occurs to me to wonder about focal-length issues, too - Could you work out the minimum distance such a large eye would see clearly?
I have a theory that one reason Mordor is so dark is that a clear sunny day would blind such a large eye - Your thoughts on Sauron's day-vs-night vision? (I'm aware that the structure of retina has a bearing on this, but given it's pupil-shape I think a cat's retinal structure would be a good analogue if required).
Another interesting addition could be the Palantir - After all "not all of them have been accounted for". I'm sure you can extrapolate it's dimensions from the films. If Sauruman's Palantir was set atop Orthanc, how far would Sauron see through it?
I would love to hear your thoughts on any of these :)
Saw these videos about 4 days ago, but I love it
But isn't there diffraction in the atmosphere?
I agree that only 130km away wont make that big of a difference but it might be enough to prevent him reading from so far away and confuse the one ring for something else.
And I am sure all your math was done on a perfect day and perfect conditions... Fog to the rescue of the fellowship of the ring? :D
LeWille00 I guess those calculations work just in vacuum, but atmosphere is a bitch, just ask an astronomer. Smart boy Rayleigh would have something to say about this
Astronomer here. Can confirm, atmosphere is a bitch. Cya.
Just wrote a comment on the influence of the atmopshere, explaining it in more detail WHY atmosphere plays a huge role, especially when near a volcano. Obviously shouted you out, LeWille00, since you asked the question initially :D
I doubt he would confuse the ring for anything else. The ring has an in-built GPS that turns on when it is active. So he'll know exactly where it is even without looking at it. But yeah he would have trouble with the atmosphere especially with atmospheric refraction causing mirages over long distances.
Speaking of creatures Wing size I can't wait to see the new Godzilla movie
Right! Next argument: how difficult would it be for that eye to focus on something? Using a camera analogy, the wider the aperture gets, the more light floods in but the more shallow the depth of field gets. On top of that, it does not have stereoscopic vision to help it determine how far an object is away.
thanks to you i have finally found the bridge between two of my studyies. So thanks a bunch.
Can you please do a video on something from stargate.
OMG YES
Barry Bend I agree
Could all the effect of a black hole works on the other side of a stargate (Time dilatation / gravitation force etc..)
I would, but I simply haven't watched enough of the show to feel comfortable! -- KH
Because Science ok go simple with it there's allot of stuff to make videos on for stargate. Honestly my first thought to an episode is: how can Cheyenne mountain base hide what is effectively a nuke going off every stargate. Activation.
Here is my theory,
The Eye of Sauron is a miniature black hole. Stick with me on this. Photons cannot escape a black hole and since we know that things swirl around it as if it had some kind of gravitational pull, it has some kind of ‘suck’ to it. So what if Photons that travel and reflect off the clouds and atmosphere are dragged into the iris?
That would mean that he would be have to be able to process all of that information from potentially every source at all times, but it would certainly explain the term All-Seeing. He would just have to focus on certain inputs. Of course, the light receptors would have to be on the event horizon of the black hole eye… and there is a whole bunch of crap with time dilation.
I’m gonna leave that part up to you mathybois. I’m just a dork with an imagination, hoping to make it to the footnotes.
Kyle is my favorite smartboi.
SilverBones the Hidden Redcoat
That...was.. magnificent. *Tear*
Don't think so. First of all, a black hole this "tiny" would evaporate due to Hawkins' radiation. It would take a while (did not do the math), but it would disappear. Second of all, it wouldn't be able to have anything around it, not even the tower or the flames (which by the way would need a source of heat and some kind of fuel, of which a black hole is none). Finally, there's the "bunch of crap with time dilatation" you mentioned XD Nobody would be able to walk towards or away from Sauron, so.. no army at the Black Gate, no Frodo and Sam into Mount Doom and all the other stuff.
Sorry to burst your bubble, I really am :'(
These are all very good points. Theoretically, the fire in the eye could be air ignited by friction in the accretion disk, but I don't think it would make the 'eye' shape. It would have to be a tiiiiny black hole, for sure. Like I said, I am no mathematician or astrophysicist.
Just a dork lol
Put a bit of lord of the rings magic into this equation and I think you got a cool in-universe explanation for Saurons abilities
SilverBones the Hidden Redcoat Well, in the LotR and Hobbit movies, the Eye is Sauron himself, so I don't think he's a black hole. Other than that, your theory makes sense, if u take away that fact.
Congrats on the 200th looking forward to the next 200 🤘
Except for one thing, sauron's eye essentially = the all seeing eye meaning that almost nothing is hidden from his gaze, ALMOST nothing. His clairvoyance is imperfect otherwise he would have seen Gandalf's plan coming and increased security around mount doom and had someone destroy kiridungol
Awesome video as always
Just one thing: wouldn't Sauron struggle to see something that's close to him?
Like, when I put my finger close enough to my eye, it's more difficult to see it as it becomes blurrier than if it was a bit farther away
Wouldn't a bigger eye also have a bigger distance in which that would happen?
joao paulo gonçalves da silva Objects close to us become blurred because 1) we rely on two eyes to see, and 2) our eyes have to move liquid around to continuously refocus. Sauron’s eye is made of fire that he can refocus infinitely quickly.
Evan Nibbe I believe that is incorrect. 1) if we close 1 eye, it still gets more blurry at exactly the same rate, and I believe that to be the same for people born with one blind eye. 2) Might be true, but the most important is our lens. It can only "reshape" for focus untill a certain point. After that, the light can no longer be focused in one place over the yellow spot in our eye, which is where we see most detail. Therefore, if we assume Saurons eye to have a lens capable of similar focus to humans, there will be a point at which things get to close too see clearly.
Wouldn't Sauron not be able to tell distance? We, as well other fleshy bois, rely on having two eyes to tell depth perception. Creatures with only one eye have as harder time judging distances, we can examples of this with one eyed cats (or any other that has been attacked and lost an eye) and when they are on the hunt you typically see the over shoot when pouncing to attempt to counteract this effect.
On the other hand chameleons can somehow hit their insect prey with just one of their eyes requred for it (I once heard something like that in documentary but I cant recall any precise details so take this info with a grain of salt)
dude close one eye u still see pretty good
He does not necessarily need great depth perception because he can probably use landmarks, like Mount Doom and cirith ungol, to help him figure out where everything is in relation to himself and he doesn't necessarily need to know the exact location of an intruder into Mordor because he has tons of orcs who can hunt them down.
As long as he knows how big an object is (kind of like landmarks), he can figure out how far the object is.
We (and presumably other binocular creatures) actually have two methods of detecting depth perception. One is the difference between the vision, but the other is parallax - how does the object move in relation to other objects.
There's actually a technique known as Wiggle stereoscopy (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiggle_stereoscopy) that demonstrates this.
Of course, Sauron originally had two eyes, so his brain (or magical equivalent) would probably expect to have dual view stereoscopic vision. So I agree with you, but hey, Wiggle Stereoscopy is cool if people haven't seen it!
Really good episode!
Really love to see a because science about 4k tv's and whether or not we could actually see a difference.
9:43
Actually being stronger is what makes you lose control tothe ring.
Ironically it's weakness that prevents the ring from taking over.
Which makes Frodo, and Hobbits in general, fantastic Ring-Bearers. Because unlike Gandalf who's basically a human angel and Aragorn who's super strong in his own right, Frodo and Hobbits don't have or want for anything. They're 100% content with staying in their homes smoking weed all day. What is the Ring going to tempt them with? Dank kush? Gollum probably saved the world by finding the Ring before someone else did. Because despite being corrupted by it, the only thing he did with Middle Earth's ultimate WMD was live in a cave eating fish for a few hundred years. Versus someone like Gandalf who could have brought an apocalypse.
Any dislikes will be from flat-earthers.
Edit: That moment when middle earth is indeed confirmed to be flat and your comment becomes invalid.
sonictheporcipine i actually thought middle earth was flat
I think it was, up until a certain point.
Sam Reddig Gaming, did you?
Philosoraptor yeah i just double checked and it actually is indeed flat
Sam Reddig Gaming, *wow*
the formula for determining the distance you can see to the horizon based on your elevation and the height of the object you are trying to see is modified by the optical properties of the air - which will vary based on thermal currents in the layers of the air, moisture content and several other factors ... and will vary over the course of a day - in particular around sunrise and sunset - simple example is to think of mirages such as Fata Morgana
Very entertaining video as usual! However just for any of you who don't already realize, this video is just a fun hypothetical look at Suaron's eye if it was an actual physical eye. Of course if you read the book you'd know it's not a physical eye. The whole "eye of Sauron" concept is more of a spiritual, preternatural (outside the physical realm) power that is symbolized by a physical eye in the movie because they didn't know how else to express it.
Interestingly, on earth we don't only try to "see" more by increasing arpeture diameters - for example the Very Large Array simulates an aperture size of 13,000m2. Problems occur when trying to see anything through our very turbulent atmosphere (which is a bit like trying to read words on the bottom of a swimming pool) by using adaptive optics which bend mirrors or lenses to counteract the atmospheric turbulence.
For Sauron to see such detail at such distances, he would also need some sort of adaptive optics (either physically in his eye or in some clever post processing) to actually see such tasty hobbitses at such large distances
Great comment. I was going to make the same point about atmospheric turbulence, but you got in first.
As you point out some sort of adaptive optics is needed for imaging at such long distances through the boundary layer of the atmosphere. Since at one time I worked on multiwavelength digital holography for 3D imaging through atmospheric turbulence, I had the idea that perhaps the apparent flames around the pupil of Sauron's eye is really many laser beams at different wavelengths pointing in different directions to implement a wide field-of-view multiwavelength digital holography system for 3D imaging through the atmospheric turbulence. This would also provide depth perception for the single eye.
Ooooh interesting concept, I like it!
Hi Kyle, in LOTR Lore: The Planet that middle earth is on, Arda (I know definition of Arda changes and can also refer to the cosmos that the planet exists within, but I'll stick with Planet) is a flat circulare planet and does not have any curvature. The planet is a solid disc in space with the continents in it surrounded by an encircling sea, Ekkaia, which is followed by the Void; Kúma (is this where you exist Kyle?) where the sun, moon and stars move on their cycles above and below the planet.
Based on a map of Arda in the Third Age the world is 9000 km in diameter (5592,34 miles) Without any curvature how far would he be able to see then?
If we base this off the average human eye which is 24 millimeters wide and can see a flame at night at 48 km away (30 miles).
If we just scale this up the human eye is 208,3333... times smaller than the eye of Sauron. if we simply scale the distance up with this the eye should be able to see 9984 Km which means it would see straight out into the void. and since the Barad-dûr is locate in the northern hemisphere he would be able to stare even further into the void looking north than south. And with the detailed vision you say he has he'd most likely be able to look at stars in the void like the Hubble telescope, and he would most definitively be able to see the smallest detail and creature moving within the planet of Arda being indeed an All-Seeing- Eye.
Please feel free to correct me on the distance he would be able to see.
Also to add my own comment the Tallest mountain during the Third Age would be Caradhras one of the mighty peaks of the misty mountains. which the Fellowship climb, if we base some information on the filming location, the Jura Glacier in New Zealand, we know the latitude to be 45. based on the 1848 Snowline scetch by smartboi Alexander Johnston we know the snowline at this latitude to start at 1524 m (5000 Feet) meaning the misty mountains are far taller then Barad-dûr, meaing the eye would not be able to see anything past the misty mountain range to the northwest, this would possibly also apply to: the Orocarni (Red Mountains) in the North East, The Gray mountains to the South West on the Hither Lands (Harao), and the yellow mountains to the Southeast in the Dark Land. besides from the Misty Mountains there is not alot of land beyond these mountain ranges, so the eye is still very All-Seeing.
It was originally flat until the Numenoreans tried to conquer the Undying Lands and got sunk in the ocean while the Valar reshaped the world in a Sphere. In the third age Arda it's definitely a sperical planet
daunted by your knowledge, but you may have forgot the Valar reshaped it after the Numenoreans went hayhay
Thank you! Even though I'm impressed by Torgrim's knowledge, you have it right. And it was the comment I was looking for.
Thank You Everybody for the correction
Best on screen explosion ....ever.....I watched it 100’s of times....there’s something amazing about it for me....
Awesome episode!
Peace Kyle,
I noticed in a past Thor episode when your eyes started glowing you said
"How can I possibly see if this was happening?" So I ask.
Wouldn't all that light from the fire blind him? How could Sauron see anything past an orange glow?
Thanks always,
RG.
But 130km wouldn't be the upper limit of to where he could see, it's where the curvature of the planet blocks his vision. Say he lived on an endless flat surface, just how far could Sauron then see?
He could theoretical see the whole world.
@@blankblank1284 Well....one half of the whole world.
@@bravomike4734
Thats what I meant
YES
This episode was really *eye opening*
Sauron may have vision that would be greater than the Hubble telescope, but can he see why kids love the delicious taste of Cinnamon Toast Crunch?
Just in time for footnotes! Oh man what do I write now??? Ehm you turn invisible, and said that would suck!
Also, if I'm doing the mental maths correctly, he would have a picture in the order of tens of Terapixels, which would take a lot of brainpower to process and using modern graphics cards, it would take more energy than a nuclear reactor to compute it.
Barad-dûr requires Mt. Doom and the landscape of Mordor in order to stand so you should consider the hazy atmosphere of northwestern Mordor, and how it would affect the amount of light the Eye could perceive at what distance. Another thing to consider would be how the light and heat from volcanic Orodruin affects the Eyes vision, such as heatwaves and the reddish glow of any reflected terrain. Also as the Eye looks downwards at areas closer to it's base the vision should get clearer.
but he has ring mode vision
The Eye is said to pierce even shadow and earth.
But that's due to magic.
I'm sticking to a scientific context.
It's basically having xray vision. Not unscientific. Though I'm curious if Kyle is ever going to explore "why you wouldn't want xray vision "
This was a video I didn’t know I needed
@Kyle - mindblowing video. What really brought it home for me was realizing that if you dropped the back of an earring, Sauron could tell you where to look for it...from EIGHTY MILES AWAY - this has got me wondering, though: if Sauron were on Earth and looked up, could he make out the lunar landers on the moon? I also wonder what the upper and lower wavelength limits might be for an eye that size. Could it see into the radio spectrum?
How well can Heimdall see?
Jeremy X magic
Magic is just science beyond our understanding.
Jeremy X maybe he move a seeing soul through the universe. We know things like that exist because of Dr strange
If he can create wormholes to see through, then he can see anything anywhere from any angle he wishes.
Sauron can see naked female elves, dwarves, humans and hobbits for days :)
"Middle Earth Playboy - Mordor edition"
His eye is indeed very big, but does he have a wee wee he can wank?
The tower.
Who wants to watch naked dwarves or hobbits ? *disgusting*.
Probably other dwarves and hobbits?
There's also the matter of midget porn, but we don't talk about that.
One problem: the area around Sauron is not empty space but an atmosphere, specifically one polluted by a giant volcano standing nearby. Atmospheric scattering and absorption of light, as well as the abundance of macroparticles like soot in the air, would likely limit maximum range of vision as well as the degree of detail Sauron could perceive severely. According to this chart in the Geman Wiki entry on 'metrological visibility', maximum visibility on ground level would be around 50km in very good conditions and can go up to 280km under exceptional conditions (which oviously would occure only very infrequently).
Dude, ur so dorky/funny! Lol. Love ur videos, man😊👍🏾👍🏾
"Yes, I know I look like Thor"
-Kyle Hill
He looks like Thor
...but what about atmospheric refraction? If sauron is that high up, wouldn't there be an issue with light passing through alternating air densities? At 1400m air is roughly 640mmHg and at sea level about 760mmHg (roughly 19% difference). At the sight horizon there might be a bit of refraction and inaccuracy going on with his, rudely reading over your shoulder, vision.
Kyle Hill is a national treasure
“Searching far and wide”
Each Pokemon to understand...
THE POWER THATS INSIDE
POKEMON!!!!
*_simple geometry_*
trekfall Hanzo main here.
130km eh? Imagine how far he'd be able to see on Middle Flat Earth :-P
Oh god we don't want a Middle Flat Earth Society 😂
middle earth used to be flat
No.
imgur.com/gallery/s8MLn
It's flat. That's why Gandalf fell deep and appeared on top of a mountain. He fell until he was on the other side of the disc.
This channel is the embodiment of "Well, actually
It seems like another way to simulate what details Sauron could see at his 'Evil Horizon' would be to take a perfectly focused picture and include a ruler in the shot (relevant details and ruler should be at the same perspective/plane of focus). Then, on a computer, count the number of pixels between the 0 and 3 mm marks on the ruler (or any equivalent spaced marks), and apply a blur effect for that many pixels. Assuming the blur effect is accurate and bases how much to blur on distance between resolvable details [and Kyle's calculations were correct ;)], it should work. For a distance other than to Sauron's horizon, you'll have to recalculate what measurement the angular resolution resolves to.