Saw the Mets broadcaster trying to push Lindor to get the mvp because he makes 1 or 2 plays on defense, the guy is an average player and was awful and terrible in the first half, did'nt even make the All Star roster, Lindor had 1 good month and they trying to make a case for him, the Mets barely are trying to make the wild card, the Dodgers have one of the best records (that's without Mookie Betts and Yamamoto for half a season, the Mets have a healthy Alonso all season and the best closer Edwin Diaz) Ohtani leads in 13 offensive cetegories over Lindor. Shohei is not just a regular DH. The DH in the past were only hitters, and the most they got in stolen bases is usually 3 or 4, Ohtani is an all around player with speed and power, any DH who got 50-50 in the past absolutely would've won the MVP. A 50 HRs & 50 SBs DH is more valuable than an average player like lindor.
@@prodmyle My brother lives in Long Island NY but he say's no Mets are saying Lindor for mvp anymore, Ohtani leads Lindor in 13 offensive cetegories, and Shohei Ohtani leads the NL in Runs RBIs Extra base hits WAR OPS Slugging and HRs. And defense in MLB means very little (makes 1 or 2 plays a game) It's not like the NBA were they play both sides equal, but even that no defense in basketball wins an MVP. Also In the NFL no defensive player wins MVP, in all sporst they look at offense.
If the MVP is decided based on wAR numbers alone, there is no need for a press vote. The MVP is important because it is how much of an impact he had on the league, captivated the audience, and attracted baseball fans. Decided on Shohei Otan
MVP stands for Most Valuable Player to his team. You have no idea what the award means. Your definition is that of the most popular player (and Ohtani is that player by a long shot). Lindor does have a case because how he has helped pull his team out from mediocrity. If the Mets make the playoffs and go deep into the playoffs then he has a very good chance winning the MVP (if Ohtani not get the 50/50). If Ohtani reaches 50/50 and Dodgers winning the West division then I don't see how voters not give him the MVP. Ohtani is still the favorite.
of course a DH can win, but when theyre up against a platinum glove shortstop having a great offensive season, the all the DH has is those extra dozen or so homers against the defense the other guy is producing. This is why Lindor has a higher fwar total
@@theasmrhistorian8238you say that like it’s easy to do. He’s the first to ever do what he’s doing. No pitcher has ever done 40-40(he’s the 6th in history to get 40-40) and he’s about to do 50-50.
What Darling and these other analysts aren’t considering is, the Dodgers currently own the best record in baseball and are 4+ games ahead of the Padres and D-Backs (who both own better records than the Mets) for the NL West lead DESPITE their pitching staff being a disaster injury and performance wise most the season AND despite missing Mookie Betts for 2 months, Max Muncy for 3 months, and Freddie Freeman for several weeks. Among the biggest reasons they’ve managed to weather injury storm and inconsistent pitching is because of Shohei Ohtani. He’s been a rock in their the lineup for all but like 2 or 3 games and is producing like very few have.
I'm a Mets fan and would be happy for a Met to win it. I don't see a world that Ohtani doesn’t get it especially with a 45/45 or 50/50 season. It would be great for a guy playing solid defense and carrying a team to win it, but not holding my breath. I just want to see the Mets have a shot in the playoffs.
The only way Ohtani doesn't win is because voters specifically don't want him to win. Ohtani has carried the Dodgers the entire season, during which Betts and Freeman missed significant playing time.
@@everettdunlavy7820 Yes, but Ohtani also leads Lindor in literally every statistical category, including WAR. He even leads him in ever version of WAR except the one specifically designed to penalize the DH.
@@yamamanchaFirst off there’s only 2 versions of WAR so saying “every version of WAR except the one specifically designed to penalize the DH” (fWAR) is misleading. Secondly fWAR is not created to penalize DHs but made to reward good defense. bWAR actually undervalues defense and its calculation methods for it are outdated. This MVP race is much closer than most people believe it to be, and considering that the Dodgers are still a playoff team regardless of Ohtani while the Mets dont even sniff .500 without Lindor would lead me to believe that Lindor deserves the award more. However if Ohtani wins, it is totally fair game and very much deserved.
@@JoseReyesEnthusiast You can't say that the Dodgers are a playoff team without Ohtani. Betts missed 40 games, during which Ohtani moved to leadoff and absolutely carried the team. Without Ohtani, they're probably in a similar position to the Mets, fighting for that last playoff spot or missing the playoffs altogether. That said, I do get that it's a close race, and getting closer. It was my position from the start of the season that Ohtani would need something historic, like 40-40 and competing for the Triple Crown or 50-50 to win the MVP.
Let’s be real, there’s no way Ohtani loses the MVP race even if ppl wanna consistently bring up he’s only hitting. 50/50 is a certainty, and even if he doesn’t hit it, 45/45 has also never been done before.
Where Sho is at now 44/44 hasn't been done either. You never know. The optics doesn't look great with 1 person being crowned God of Baseball year after year. Maybe it's better to spread the wealth a little
@@RG4l0824 Nonsense ... you can sit all home all day and play one game a season. Just meaning you'll hit the ball farther and hit more hitting homers you dimwit. That's not how it works.
I agree with you, but it’s the age old question. Is the MVP for the best player or most valuable player to their team. Ohtani is a unicorn. However, take him off the Dodgers, and they still make the playoffs. Mets are below .500 without Lindor. Plus, he’s a having a great year. It still won’t matter though because Ohtani is the biggest star in the sport having a truly historic year.
2022 NY media: Judge made history with his HRs, we'll give him the MVP over Ohtani. 2024 NY media: Shohei's historic 44/46 season is nothing (Potential 50/50 or more), lets give the MVP to Lindor. Make it make sense other than these people are extremely bias.
Judge is also a top 5 right fielder and lead his team to the playoffs while ohtani missed the playoffs completely tell me who is the mvp historic season don’t mean shit if you miss the playoffs needed to joined an already juiced up dodgers team to even make it to the playoffs he ain’t no mvp
@@shaquileoatmeal4757 hater or just speaking facts? Besides his nice lil history what has he done in the league no playoff appearances nothing he’s overrated and isn’t as valuable as people make him out to be
@@lildripnation3462 When you reply to multiple comments, that’s hating behavior, in my opinion of course. You act like the MVP is a post season award, if you want to speak about postseason then to be honest Ohtani has won as much championship as Lindoor and Judge, but hey at least they made the post season. 🤷♂️
@@shaquileoatmeal4757 it’s not a postseason award but how are you an mvp while your team misses the playoffs? You’re just a great player who isn’t bringing no value
Totally agree In entire MLB ever OHTANI is a one making great history in every single game, Lindor will disappear as Just a one time MVP ... For example I will ask my Aussie friends, All knows OHTANI, No one ever heard a name " Lindor 🍫
@@prodmyle bro i do understand lindor is a great player!! he is the mvp of his team! OHTANI is NL's MVP OHTANI's offensive numbers are juz HISTORALLY too much‼️ he was hitting HRs and scores RUN（NL 1st） straight from STOLEN BASES he got.. should we talk about THE OHTANI EFFECT too!?
@prodmyle that argument could be used like did Judge pitched in 2022 when Ohtani was top 5 in AL hitting and pitching? Yet Judge won the MVP landslide... 62HR was historic yet what Ohtani did in 22 was never done before ever yet voters simply ignored that... so tell me what's so special about Lindor's season over 50 50?
There's no way Shohei loses the NL MVP against Lindor. Ohtani is literally close to a 50/50 season or a 45/45 season minimum. Dodgers are also the 1st placed team in the NL so far. I'm a Dodger fan, but this is like the Acuña-Betts MVP conversation in the past years. 👀 It's so obvious though.
What happens to the Dodgers if you take Ohtani and put him in the Chicago White Sox? The Dodgers would still be fine and comfortable in the NL playoffs. Now what happens to the Mets if you take Lindor out of the team? No disrespect to Ohtani or his accolades for this year but, in my opinion, the overall value Lindor brings to the Mets is FAR higher than what Ohtani brings to the Dodgers.
@RabiaaHQ i respectfully disagree. As a Dodger fan, this is the worst good team I've ever seen. Without ohtani, i dont think we are division leaders. Mookie and freddy have missed good stretches of the season. Muncy was out. Outman was hitting well below the mendoza line so he is gone. Lux is waking up but he has struggled. Dont get me started on our pitching staff. We need his offense so bad. Not saying lindor isn't incredibly valuable, but i think you aren't watching enough Dodger games this season.
@@shepergames3734 you sir are a really good debater and fan and like to have a healthy debate with you. You’re right, I did not know half of the facts you’ve provided and all really strong and valid points. However, I still think although you’ve missed your key players almost the entire year, overall the Dodgers have a greater team than the Mets. In terms of reliance, I really don’t think the Dodgers have been in an extremely critical point in the season compared to the Mets and, that for me gives the MVP conversation a little more favor to Lindor. Now, I’m not stupid, I’m fairly convinced Ohtani will win it.
@@RabiaaHQ I think what it is going to come down to is how well the Mets finish. Ohtani is at a disadvantage not playing defense while his offensive numbers are insane. The Mets being 3rd in the division really hurts lindor's chances in my estimation. Fair or not, the mvp tends to go to the best player on the best team. Team success seems to matter a great deal to people unless you are simply far and away better than the next guy. I think we can both agree neither of them are playing far better than the other. I am a dodger fan who likes ohtani but another mvp on his mantle means less to me than a championship. If Lindor gets it, I'll be happy for him and Mets fans. If ohtani does pull off 50 hr and 50 steals, I'd say it's definitely gonna be an uphill battle for anyone else though.
Ohtani not playing defense actually hurts his WAR. He played outfield in Japan. Only reason he isn't playing defense is because he is rehabbing his arm. 50/50 has never been done. MVP usually goes to the best player on the best team. Guys who don't win the MVP despite crazy season is because of the team standing.
Gotta love the NY media narrative. Ohtani is doing this in a season in which Betts and Muncy have been out, Freeman has missed time, the Dodgers pitching staff has been depleted, and yet they still have the best record in baseball. If his offensive numbers are similar to Lindor's, the Dodgers are probably in 3rd place given the amount of injuries they've sustained.
The Dodgers have a considerably better roster than the Mets. Ohtani doesn’t play the field. Lindor plays the most important position in baseball and is a terrific fielder. He is basically carried the team in the last couple of months. You want to talk about injuries, the Mets Ace has been out the entire year leaving behind a rather average starting staff at best. I believe right now. Lindor is more valuable to the Mets and Ohtani is the Dodgers. It is close so I might say.
Stop trying to make a case for Lindor. It’s hilarious the only winner for this year‘s NL MVP is ohtani.and the closest guy to ohtani in the MVP race is Marcell Ozuna
You're looking at AVG, HR, RBIs, and OPS. Ozuna is another DH, meaning he is designated to HIT. If four stats make him the best player in an entire half of a league, then you really need to watch more baseball.
These are some bias comments lol if pitching can win mvp dh can also win it especially on historic season If everyone can do what ohtani is doing as a dh then make lindor as a dh and see if he can take 40hr and 50sb ohtani is hitting 40hr while pitcher and sb 25+ win less attempts last few years
Shohei didn't get the perfect lineup for the Dodgers until like the last 10 games, he played all the games of the season and helped carrying the team so much especially the first half of the season and now that the lineup is complete, he is focused on the history he can make in the Dodgers because he probably only have this season to make it before he starts pitching again. Considering that he is the MVP apart from his stats speaking for him.
Can someone please explain to me how Lindor can possibly win MVP and not make the all star team ? Lindor is amazing btw….huge fan, Ohtani is also going to do 50/50 so 🤷♂️
It's really pretty simple. The all star team voting is finished before the first half of the season is even over, or somewhere around there. Lindor had a slow start to the season so his stats weren't very good when voting was done. All star team is kind of a popularity contest too. Sometimes players who aren't having good seasons still get voted in and vice versa. IMO MVP votes are a far better way of gauging a player's season than an all star selection.
@@Ffollies you are right that popularity plays a part but that’s only for the starters. But the reserves are voted on by a combination of player ballot and the Commissioner’s office. So not only did the fans think Lindor wasn’t worthy, his own peers didn’t think so either. Another point I want to address is why would a player deserve MVP for being awesome for half a season? It’s true that non all stars have won MVP but Shoehei has not only been awesome but number 1 all season long and continues to be. Something to think about.
@@playlistiphone8743 Oh okay I didn't know about how the reserves were voted on. So I guess the reason he wasn't even voted as a reserve was because of his slow start. While I think Shohei deserves the MVP, he's also had slumps too, it just so happened that Lindor's happened during the first half, while Shohei's had some struggles in the second half. I think one must look at overall numbers and Lindor's are great as well, though I'd still pick Shohei. Also have to think about Lindor's defense. Playing great defense at a premium position.
They are desperately looking for a reason to give it to someone else this season because if Ohtani goes back to being a two-timer after next year, he can win the MVP every year.
Lindor is having a good season. Ohtani is historic. Defense doesn't matter as Acuña won last year and had a negative defensive stat. So defense didn't matter last year.. Ohtani doesn't have negative defensive stat.
Of course Ohtani doesn’t have negative defensive stat, the man never plays defense. And the years he was pitching/batting the only thing he had to worry about is to not allow hits if the ball landed near him. Contrary to Lindor who’s doing PHENOMENAL NUMBERS BOTH DEFENSIVELY AND OFFENSIVELY. One of the best two-way players in recent years and an awesome leader and captain both on and off the field. No dissrespect to Ohtani whatsoever, I think he’s out of this world.
@@NGLaw56You can take tonight's Mets win as an example. Great double plays for 3 innings straight. And 3 doubles that became singles to thanks to the outfielders. Defense is so underrated.
He actually has a negative defensive stat by design according to fangraphs metric. He's been given a deduction of -13 points the last time I checked just because he's a DH. Lol
Lindor has an .830 OPS and batting around .270 and the Mets could miss the playoffs. Literally an forgettable but solid season. Shoheis season even if he doesn’t get 50-50 will be remembered and chased years down the line. Absolute joke this is even a discussion. Ozuna is having a better season than Lindor.
The fact shohei has a chance for a 50/50 season which has never been done before, I don’t even know why they are bringing up lindor. He has zero chance. It’s not being disrespectful it’s just the truth
Shohei is the MVP. This is the problem with MLB, they don't know how to market and promote their biggest stars. Shohei is having another historic season while rehabbing from TJS. Lindor deserves to be in consideration but Shohei is your MVP and it's good for baseball.
But not the worst WAR or ops+. There may be others but he’d at least have Jimmy Rollins beat. Ops+ is important because it controls for different offensive environments each year. Judging how much better a player is than the average player that year is more useful when trying to compare between different years.
Looking at the last 40 years, Lindor has a better bwar than 2021 Harper, 2006 Morneau, 2006 Howard, 2004 Guerrero, 2002 Tejada, 1998 Gonzalez, 1996 Gonzalez, 1995 Vaughn, 1995 Larkin, 1993 Thomas, 1991 Pendleton, 1989 Yount, 1987 Bell, 1987 Dawson, 1986 Schmidt, 1984 Hernandez. That’s 20% of all MVP recipients in that time frame. Lindor’s season isn’t over yet so that list may grow. He may not have the gaudy 1st base/corner outfield numbers but he has provided a lot of value, and the Mets would almost certainly be out of it without him. Idk if I’d vote for him but I wouldn’t toss aside his case
Ohtani is going to hit 50/50 with around a 300 average and ops over 1 WHILE rehabbing from a major arm surgery that keeps pitchers down for 18 months. What is even the discussion
lindor has higher fwar because in addition to being one of the best hitters in the NL, he is also the best fielder in the NL. Ohtani hasnt taken the field once this season.
@@andrewadamsSOTR Ohtani is a much better hitter that cannot be disputed but lindor value Is that he’s isn’t just a great hitter not elite but great it’s that he is a great hitter and a elite level defender in a premium position if ohtani is pitching he wins it every time no contest but he is not no matter what kind of offensive season he is having he is a DH and they have never won for a reason
@@andrewadamsSOTR the npcs are out in full effect now, Lindor has a much higher fwar and while he is not a dwarf as you are suggesting, he is a platinum glove defender, and ohtani has literally not taken the field once, thus dwarfing him in that category.
This is the worst comparison/debate ever. It's like comparing a bicycle to a BMW. If it is so easy for Shohei to do what he is doing this season, why arent all the other DH's doing the same or similar????? Shohei is the MVP, stop this nonsense. ⚾
On one side people complain that the MLB pages are constantly pumping out Ohtani content and that it becomes tiresome but whenever I see this kind of topic... they clearly are not doing it enough. Because it's somehow a "close" MVP race between a dude batting 292/377/617, OPS+ of 177 with 44 HRs, 99 RBIs, 111Rs... and 46 SBs to boot against a guy with 273/343/500, OPS+ of 137, 30HRs, 84 RBIs, 97 Rs and... good for him, 26 SBs. And you can't even go at it from the "team success" angle because are SEVEN GAMES behind in their own division and out of the Wild Card spots while the Dodgers are literally leading the National League. Oh, and spare me the "what about defense" bullshit. Instead of batting and pitching at the same time I think the craziest thing Ohtani has made in this league is make people start to ardently bring up defense to MVP discussions, and it's never a Golden Glove caliber defender, nope, it's a bang average or slightly above average caliber defender at their position like Judge at CF or Lindor at SS.
Now, focusing on Ohtani and his individual stats that you mentioned, how much of those stats do you attribute to the Dodgers success on the team’s record? I believe Ohtani numbers make little to no difference in the team winning games because the team is loaded with other phenomenal players. They are way too comfortable for Ohtani to worry about putting numbers to make the team win games. Lindor’s case is extremely different. You can almost 100% say that he single-handlely has the Mets in contention for a wildcard spot fighting with the Braves and Diamondbacks. If it wasn’t for Lindor, Mets would’ve been history this season a long time ago.
@@RabiaaHQ Well, BA/OBP/SLG and OPS+ are individual stats that anyone in any team can mostly get, so those are basically not affected at all. In regards to RBIs he has batted 1st for the better part of the season, I guess it depends on how good the bottom of the lineup is. Runs scored he gets a boost since better batters go behind him. Stolen bases also don't think are particularly affected. Interestingly enough Ohtani has 9 IBB and Lindor has none, but that's mostly a cheeky stat I like to bring up, it doesn't hold any real weight. Again, I started saying I didn't hold team success in that high regard, but if that's the way we wanna go then why not talk about Ketel Marte, for example. The Diamondbacks are up there in the fight for the Wild Card. I get they went to the WS last year, but is not like they are a murderers' row like the Dodgers. And without him they got mauled by the Dodgers last week. His oWAR is 1.2 less than Lindor, but has over 150 fewer plate appearances so it kind of balances out. If I didn't know any better I would think that all the Lindor talk is because he is a New York Met, but I know the media wouldn't dare to favor a guy that plays in New York, that would never happen.
@@RabiaaHQyou have no idea and not watched the dodgers this season . That lineup has been decimated by injuries all year and Shohei has absolutely carried that offense.
I like Lindor and he's having a good season. But he is not close to what Ohtani has been done this season. There is no doubt that Ohtani had a great impact and contributed to the Dodgers' victory as a DH. In that respect, he is no different from a defensive player.
WAR went too far... it's a good reference stat, but don't take this as a bible, please. We still need to do an eye test as well. Lindor is a great player, but his statline doesn't really translate to wow he is the ultimate MVP contender. Yes, Ohtani is only DH and Lindor is SS but then how come Witt Jr gets no love for AL MVP race even though he plays SS while leading the league in Avg plus going to have 30 30 season... Lindor is barely hittinf over .270 so not even sure why they try to push hard against 51 51...
I don't care if Lindor wins MVP over Ohtani. Ohtani still greater at making history of baseball and he will be remembered for over a century. His footprint will be way bigger than any award.
When Ohtani was with the Angels and was making a difference and holding the team afloat, you cited that MVP is a team but should be for the game, baseball. he was a pitcher and a DH both elite stats and has a high WAR even as a DH. Angels did not go post season not because Ohtani sucks it is just unfortunate that he was on a team that is not doing well. He can be superman but will still not win a game. Baseball is a team game. Now that he is making history and again valuable to the game for getting more audiences and making the game enjoyable to watch because he is trying to break and make history, you have excuses again that he cannot win MVP because no DH has ever done it or gotten it. Did it state in the criteria that to be an MVP, a DH is not included? Did it say only fielders are suppose to become MVP or sluggers? My point is, give the award to where it is due. just my thoughts.
He's not surprising anyone who has actually seen him play over the years, whats surprising people is that he has carried this rag tag Mets team to 11 games over .500 and half a game back from the last wildcard spot. Everyone knew the Dodgers would be good this year and if anything theyve underwhelmed. Factor in that Lindor is the unquestioned captain of this Mets team (whereas Ohtani is more demure and soft spoken), and he's a gold glove caliber short stop and you can see that whereas Ohtani has the pure statistical greatness on his side, Lindor has all the intangibles that are so important to a club
@@KnowledgeNerd123 This is baseball. Ohtani carried LAD for majority of the season when all the starts were injured and half the pitching staff is out. To say that Ohtani wasn't the difference maker is objectively a LIAR
Yes, this is baseball, thanks for clearing that up I thought we were talking about pickle ball for a minute. No doubt Ohtani has carried the dodgers for most of the season but Lindor has carried his team up and above expectations. The Dodgers aren't the only team that has dealt with injuries and poor play just FYI. @@RunForPeace-hk1cu
Lindor is having one of the greatest years for a shortstop and his carried the Mets over the last 2 1/2 months. He plays the most important position in baseball. He is definitely extremely valuable to the Mets without him. They would be sub 500 the Dodgers have been, a great regular season team for many years without Ohtani
@@bosstime2010 Too many sports fans think like you and it blows my mind. What you’re saying is if Ohtani and Lindor switch teams, than the Mets would be worse. No one carries the Mets just like no one carried the Nationals back in 2019 when they started 19-31 first 50 games. Then went on a tear after the All-Star break that culminated in World Series win that no one saw coming. No one was advocating for Anthony Rendon for MVP and saying stuff like “Nats would not be a .500 team without him” and all that jive. The bottom line is that batting .274 with 30 home runs does not make a worthy MVP against someone who has already made baseball history with 20 or so more games to go.
I think WAR is getting a little out of control. Would Mookie Betts have a higher WAR if he was playing SS instead of RF? The Dodgers moved him back to RF. Is there a good chance his WAR at SS would be higher but the team is worse?
Realistically Lindor is currently the strong 2nd for the MVP. He will get 1st place votes for sure, but Ohtani's offense is on another level. I did think more into the question proposed if Lindors gold glove defense is worth more than 20 HR and 20 stolen bases, as I think that's really what it's going to come down to, so I think it's valuable to look at defensive runs saved which I believe for lindor is a little less than 20...interesting thought but yeah, Ohtani wins it unless the Mets make the playoffs and Lindor finds his way to 35/35 at the least then maybe it'll be a bit closer again, just think they're doing their job as the media to not have the 2 MVPs be so obviously judge and ohtani. A race is more exciting
Lindor’s defensive stats is good but it’s only and not special. Rwar is the only stat that Lindor is better than ohtani. Ohtani plays only as a DH but stats is historical . MVP is ohtani. Over
lol...this is too funny...ohtani might just decide to play the centerfield for kicks and win a gold glove just to prove a point...cmon let's be serious
lol mlb writers just constantly putting someone in front of Ohtani to harm his value first judge (back in the AL days when ohtani also pitched), then harper, then ketel, then now even Lindor? lol what a joke
I get it. Casual fans only consider offensive numbers. Baseball is about offense, pitching, and defense. If Ohtani was pitching this season, he'd run away and be a unanimous MVP. But he isn't pitching. He is only hitting. It isn't his fault that he was injured, but he just is only playing 1/3 of the game, while Lindor is excelling at 2/3 of the game. I think Ohtani will win it. And I'll applaud it, but the obnoxious thing about the whole debate is the silly narrative that Lindor doesn't deserve to be in the discussion. If Ohtani wins it, and I think he will ... it will be because he had a historic offensive season. Lindor is the best player ... on offense and defense ... for a team that wouldn't be sniffing the playoffs without him. Give him his due. He's a legit candidate, even though he will likely lose it to Ohtani ... who is an amazing player, and very deserving of MVP.
Man, Ohtani by himself is making it so all the guys who can't hit a ball to save their lives but have a nice glove can keep their careers alive in the minors. Never in my live I have seen "defense" be so ardently brought up in MVP discussions as in the last 3 years with Ohtani's rivals.
@@ХорхеГарсия-э5е That is because defense was always assumed in the process. There is a reason that a DH has never been MVP. Thinking fans know defense matters. It just does.
@@dashx1103 This argument would carry so much more weight if 25 PITCHERS hadn't won it, and from position players the highest represented position is... oh, so weird, FIRST BASEMAN with 35... dang. Who would have thought the two least "defensive" positions in the game would have won 60 out of... let me check... 2 MVPs per season since 1931... 186 MVPs. So an almost literal one every 3rd MVP is a dude in the least valuable defensive positions in the entire game. But yeah, "defense was always assumed in the process", got it.
Lindor has one of the best season in his career but that's doesn't change the fact that Shohei is still better than him. MVP must be given base on performance not sympathy feeling.
i remember for the longest time how mets fans were talking about Lindor not being a leader at all in the clubhouse. like remember the lindor vs mcniel fight? now all of a sudden hes a leader. give me a break.
Idc, Lindors defensive presence is worth 10 HRs and 20 SBs, the WAR demonstrates that. Ok, it’s a crazy OFFENSIVE season, that’s why there’s the Hank Aaron Award. To win MVP as a DH you need to break the single season HR record. Getting a bunch of steals in this era isn’t impressive. Rickie Henderson would have more steals than ABs in todays game
As a mets fan the award will go to Ohtani. Based on the metrics for what a MVP is in baseball there is no actual precedent where the player who is more valuable to a team wins it. Monster/historic seasons = MVP. Trout won 3 and the angels dont compete at all. Shohei same story. Bryce, bonds. The list goes on. The dodgers can be out of playoff contention and Ohtani would win it.
Is this even an argument? Although a DH has never won an MVP, Ortiz (DH) had close batting stats with A-Rod (third baseman) in 2005 but lost by a narrow margin. Lindor and Ohtani's batting stats are not even close.
Lindor only wins MVP if he maintains his production and defense and we get a MASSIVE Ohtani slump or he gets injured. Season ends rn and Ohtani wins. If Shohei goes 50/50 then he wins a third.
The keyword here is "Valuable" at the end they're going to have to see if Shohei's extra offensive stats are worth more than Lindor's defensive stat's.
I'm a Dodger fan and still think Ohtani should win MVP, but what I never see mentioned is how god awful he's been with runners in scoring position. As I'm writing this comment he's batting .218 with an OPS of .681 with RISP. The Dodgers 5-9 hitters have been terrible this whole season, and as a leadoff hitter, Ohtani has to be able to seize those rare opportunities when those 5-9 hitters get in scoring position if the Dodgers don't want to blow it in the playoffs again.
I have never heard a good shortstop player with 830OPS gets MVP. If he gets MVP with this stats, Ohtani should get MVP for next 10 years if he both pitch and hit.
Official definition of MVP: Dear Voter: There is no clear-cut definition of what Most Valuable means. It is up to the individual voter to decide who was the Most Valuable Player in each league to his team. The MVP need not come from a division winner or other playoff qualifier. The rules of the voting remain the same as they were written on the first ballot in 1931: 1. Actual value of a player to his team, that is, strength of offense and DEFENSE. 2. Number of games played. 3. General character, disposition, loyalty and effort. 4. Former winners are eligible. 5. Members of the committee may vote for more than one member of a team.
Would people really choose a player baded on their WAR? Did anyone care that John Olerud had a higher WAR than Mark McGuire in 1998 when he hit 70 home runs? Did anyone think Kevin Kiermaier was the second best player in the league when he hit .260 with 10 home runs and great defense? I Don't think people are going to talk about Lindor's memorable 2024 season that he hit ,270 with 32 home runs and 90 RBI. I don't know if people are delusional or just biased
This wouldn’t even be an argument if Ohtani was out there pitching (competitively) every 5 days while also putting up these number at the plate. If that were the case, then there’s no question! Ohtani is MVP! But since it isn’t the case and Francisco Lindor has had games where he’s 0-4 and still contributed to his team’s W significantly. Simply due to his defense. It brings up the real question about the numbers and the MVP consideration. There hasn’t been a single game this season where Ohtani has gone of 0-ANYTHING and still contributed to his teams win. Maybe with Sac flies or walks etc. However, he hasn’t played a single inning defensively or on the mound, Which ultimately will take a toll on your body over the span of an entire season (assuming he stays healthy while being an “Ace” pitcher; pitching regularly) and also the best hitter on your team. 1) he would’ve had less ABs because of rest days in between outings. 2) he wouldn’t be stealing as much to protect his legs for pitching. 3) he wouldn’t have the privilege of just hitting and not worrying about absolutely anything else as an MLB player. (Compared to Lindor who’s playing such a demanding position both physically and mentally). Personally, (and it may be my own biased choice due to the fact that I’m a Mets fan (although it probably has nothing to do with it)). I think Lindor is More deserving right now. You put some of those numbers into context and compare them with an everyday (defensive) player and Lindor would be ahead. Lindor has player over 135 games inning in and inning out. I think that there’s more value in a grade A defensive player with grade potential batting than a grade A+ batting player with 0 defensive value during an entire season. Just a personal preference, however.
If Mets make the playoffs then it should go to Lindor because Ohtani has Freemen and Betts in the lineup with him. It’s the award for the biggest difference maker for their team. Without Lindor the Mets are not in contention at all. Same can’t be said for Ohtani.
In the future 20, 30, 40+ years, players will still be chasing Ohtani’s record. Nobody will remember Lindor’s season.
Saw the Mets broadcaster trying to push Lindor to get the mvp because he makes 1 or 2 plays on defense, the guy is an average player and was awful and terrible in the first half, did'nt even make the All Star roster, Lindor had 1 good month and they trying to make a case for him, the Mets barely are trying to make the wild card, the Dodgers have one of the best records (that's without Mookie Betts and Yamamoto for half a season, the Mets have a healthy Alonso all season and the best closer Edwin Diaz) Ohtani leads in 13 offensive cetegories over Lindor. Shohei is not just a regular DH. The DH in the past were only hitters, and the most they got in stolen bases is usually 3 or 4, Ohtani is an all around player with speed and power, any DH who got 50-50 in the past absolutely would've won the MVP. A 50 HRs & 50 SBs DH is more valuable than an average player like lindor.
@@edwin-vv8bw Did you just refer to Lindor as an "average player"?
@@edwin-vv8bw worst take ive ever seen 😂😂😂
@@prodmyle My brother lives in Long Island NY but he say's no Mets are saying Lindor for mvp anymore, Ohtani leads Lindor in 13 offensive cetegories, and Shohei Ohtani leads the NL in Runs RBIs Extra base hits WAR OPS Slugging and HRs. And defense in MLB means very little (makes 1 or 2 plays a game) It's not like the NBA were they play both sides equal, but even that no defense in basketball wins an MVP. Also In the NFL no defensive player wins MVP, in all sporst they look at offense.
Lindor = MVMP (Most Valuable Mets Player)
Ohtani = MVP.
😂😂😂😂
If the MVP is decided based on wAR numbers alone, there is no need for a press vote.
The MVP is important because it is how much of an impact he had on the league, captivated the audience, and attracted baseball fans.
Decided on Shohei Otan
That’s not what mvp is
@@gaetanodicaprio7681Lets vote then. That's the point.
MVP stands for Most Valuable Player to his team. You have no idea what the award means. Your definition is that of the most popular player (and Ohtani is that player by a long shot). Lindor does have a case because how he has helped pull his team out from mediocrity. If the Mets make the playoffs and go deep into the playoffs then he has a very good chance winning the MVP (if Ohtani not get the 50/50). If Ohtani reaches 50/50 and Dodgers winning the West division then I don't see how voters not give him the MVP. Ohtani is still the favorite.
And WAR is not perfect.
100%
If Ohtani is the 1st player in history to achieve a 50/50 season, there’s no reason he shouldn’t win an MVP Award.
@alternatejunkie, also the fastest ever to 40/40. Even if he didn't play another game, no one has ever done 47/48.
How many outs Ohtani made this year defending? 😂 can Ohtani make the last out of the game to win? No and no
@@sammymedina9856 Doesn't matter. Lindor will finish a distant 2nd place. Thank you though.
If pitchers can win MVP by not playing offense, DH can win MVP by not playing defense. Simple as that.
different argument IMO but a valid point nonetheless
of course a DH can win, but when theyre up against a platinum glove shortstop having a great offensive season, the all the DH has is those extra dozen or so homers against the defense the other guy is producing. This is why Lindor has a higher fwar total
@@theasmrhistorian8238 Ohtani's doing things that we've never seen anyone do, DH or not. He's the MVP.
@@MrReav13 his case for mvp is a handful of extra home runs and stolen bases, and that that alone is more valuable than Lindors elite defense.
@@theasmrhistorian8238you say that like it’s easy to do. He’s the first to ever do what he’s doing. No pitcher has ever done 40-40(he’s the 6th in history to get 40-40) and he’s about to do 50-50.
What Darling and these other analysts aren’t considering is, the Dodgers currently own the best record in baseball and are 4+ games ahead of the Padres and D-Backs (who both own better records than the Mets) for the NL West lead DESPITE their pitching staff being a disaster injury and performance wise most the season AND despite missing Mookie Betts for 2 months, Max Muncy for 3 months, and Freddie Freeman for several weeks.
Among the biggest reasons they’ve managed to weather injury storm and inconsistent pitching is because of Shohei Ohtani. He’s been a rock in their the lineup for all but like 2 or 3 games and is producing like very few have.
I'm a Mets fan and would be happy for a Met to win it. I don't see a world that Ohtani doesn’t get it especially with a 45/45 or 50/50 season. It would be great for a guy playing solid defense and carrying a team to win it, but not holding my breath. I just want to see the Mets have a shot in the playoffs.
The only way Ohtani doesn't win is because voters specifically don't want him to win. Ohtani has carried the Dodgers the entire season, during which Betts and Freeman missed significant playing time.
Lindor has carried the mets with a terrible bullpen and mid team 😂
@@everettdunlavy7820 Yes, but Ohtani also leads Lindor in literally every statistical category, including WAR. He even leads him in ever version of WAR except the one specifically designed to penalize the DH.
Lindor leads Ohtani in WAR. No one cares about bWAR because their formula is outdated. They use DRS instead of OAA like fWAR@@yamamancha
@@yamamanchaFirst off there’s only 2 versions of WAR so saying “every version of WAR except the one specifically designed to penalize the DH” (fWAR) is misleading. Secondly fWAR is not created to penalize DHs but made to reward good defense. bWAR actually undervalues defense and its calculation methods for it are outdated. This MVP race is much closer than most people believe it to be, and considering that the Dodgers are still a playoff team regardless of Ohtani while the Mets dont even sniff .500 without Lindor would lead me to believe that Lindor deserves the award more. However if Ohtani wins, it is totally fair game and very much deserved.
@@JoseReyesEnthusiast You can't say that the Dodgers are a playoff team without Ohtani. Betts missed 40 games, during which Ohtani moved to leadoff and absolutely carried the team. Without Ohtani, they're probably in a similar position to the Mets, fighting for that last playoff spot or missing the playoffs altogether. That said, I do get that it's a close race, and getting closer.
It was my position from the start of the season that Ohtani would need something historic, like 40-40 and competing for the Triple Crown or 50-50 to win the MVP.
Let’s be real, there’s no way Ohtani loses the MVP race even if ppl wanna consistently bring up he’s only hitting. 50/50 is a certainty, and even if he doesn’t hit it, 45/45 has also never been done before.
Maybe if he was pitching, if lindor was just a DH he prolly have 10 more home runs and 10 more stolen bases maybe more
Where Sho is at now 44/44 hasn't been done either. You never know. The optics doesn't look great with 1 person being crowned God of Baseball year after year. Maybe it's better to spread the wealth a little
@@RG4l0824 Nonsense ... you can sit all home all day and play one game a season. Just meaning you'll hit the ball farther and hit more hitting homers you dimwit.
That's not how it works.
@@vuho2075 44/46 I can't get over how he swept those three bags that game 😂
I agree with you, but it’s the age old question. Is the MVP for the best player or most valuable player to their team. Ohtani is a unicorn. However, take him off the Dodgers, and they still make the playoffs. Mets are below .500 without Lindor. Plus, he’s a having a great year. It still won’t matter though because Ohtani is the biggest star in the sport having a truly historic year.
2022 NY media: Judge made history with his HRs, we'll give him the MVP over Ohtani.
2024 NY media: Shohei's historic 44/46 season is nothing (Potential 50/50 or more), lets give the MVP to Lindor.
Make it make sense other than these people are extremely bias.
Judge is also a top 5 right fielder and lead his team to the playoffs while ohtani missed the playoffs completely tell me who is the mvp historic season don’t mean shit if you miss the playoffs needed to joined an already juiced up dodgers team to even make it to the playoffs he ain’t no mvp
@@lildripnation3462 This guy is a certified Ohtani hater. Man is almost replying to every comment to state his case on how Ohtani is overrated. 😂😂
@@shaquileoatmeal4757 hater or just speaking facts? Besides his nice lil history what has he done in the league no playoff appearances nothing he’s overrated and isn’t as valuable as people make him out to be
@@lildripnation3462 When you reply to multiple comments, that’s hating behavior, in my opinion of course. You act like the MVP is a post season award, if you want to speak about postseason then to be honest Ohtani has won as much championship as Lindoor and Judge, but hey at least they made the post season. 🤷♂️
@@shaquileoatmeal4757 it’s not a postseason award but how are you an mvp while your team misses the playoffs? You’re just a great player who isn’t bringing no value
Agreed Lindor is having a great season but Ohtani is making a baseball history this year.
Totally agree
In entire MLB ever OHTANI is a one making great history in every single game, Lindor will disappear as Just a one time MVP ... For example I will ask my Aussie friends, All knows OHTANI, No one ever heard a name " Lindor 🍫
Shohei 51/51 Sept 19 2024 = MVP
No one will remember lindor's season 10 years from now, let alone 5 years.
ＮＬ OHTANI LINDOR
ＨＲ 46 （1st） 30（5th）
ＲＢＩ 101（1st） 84 （10th）
ＡＶＧ .291（5th） .270（22th）
Ｒ 113（1st） 100（3rd）
ＳＢ 46（2nd） 26（9th）
do we need to debate⁉️
But he is black
how about innings played in the field?
@@prodmyle bro i do understand
lindor is a great player!!
he is the mvp of his team!
OHTANI is NL's MVP
OHTANI's offensive numbers
are juz HISTORALLY too much‼️
he was hitting HRs and
scores RUN（NL 1st）
straight from STOLEN BASES he got..
should we talk about
THE OHTANI EFFECT too!?
@prodmyle that argument could be used like did Judge pitched in 2022 when Ohtani was top 5 in AL hitting and pitching? Yet Judge won the MVP landslide... 62HR was historic yet what Ohtani did in 22 was never done before ever yet voters simply ignored that... so tell me what's so special about Lindor's season over 50 50?
@@SP-ve1im 51-51 now and counting‼️‼️
Shohei Ohtani YOU are a Los Angeles Angel❤
There's no way Shohei loses the NL MVP against Lindor. Ohtani is literally close to a 50/50 season or a 45/45 season minimum. Dodgers are also the 1st placed team in the NL so far. I'm a Dodger fan, but this is like the Acuña-Betts MVP conversation in the past years. 👀 It's so obvious though.
To be honest, 40/40 was great.
What happens to the Dodgers if you take Ohtani and put him in the Chicago White Sox? The Dodgers would still be fine and comfortable in the NL playoffs.
Now what happens to the Mets if you take Lindor out of the team? No disrespect to Ohtani or his accolades for this year but, in my opinion, the overall value Lindor brings to the Mets is FAR higher than what Ohtani brings to the Dodgers.
@RabiaaHQ i respectfully disagree. As a Dodger fan, this is the worst good team I've ever seen. Without ohtani, i dont think we are division leaders. Mookie and freddy have missed good stretches of the season. Muncy was out. Outman was hitting well below the mendoza line so he is gone. Lux is waking up but he has struggled. Dont get me started on our pitching staff. We need his offense so bad. Not saying lindor isn't incredibly valuable, but i think you aren't watching enough Dodger games this season.
@@shepergames3734 you sir are a really good debater and fan and like to have a healthy debate with you.
You’re right, I did not know half of the facts you’ve provided and all really strong and valid points. However, I still think although you’ve missed your key players almost the entire year, overall the Dodgers have a greater team than the Mets. In terms of reliance, I really don’t think the Dodgers have been in an extremely critical point in the season compared to the Mets and, that for me gives the MVP conversation a little more favor to Lindor.
Now, I’m not stupid, I’m fairly convinced Ohtani will win it.
@@RabiaaHQ I think what it is going to come down to is how well the Mets finish. Ohtani is at a disadvantage not playing defense while his offensive numbers are insane. The Mets being 3rd in the division really hurts lindor's chances in my estimation. Fair or not, the mvp tends to go to the best player on the best team. Team success seems to matter a great deal to people unless you are simply far and away better than the next guy. I think we can both agree neither of them are playing far better than the other. I am a dodger fan who likes ohtani but another mvp on his mantle means less to me than a championship. If Lindor gets it, I'll be happy for him and Mets fans. If ohtani does pull off 50 hr and 50 steals, I'd say it's definitely gonna be an uphill battle for anyone else though.
The debate should be about how many votes can Lindor win, not whether he can win the mvp, because it’s almost impossible.
Ohtani not playing defense actually hurts his WAR. He played outfield in Japan. Only reason he isn't playing defense is because he is rehabbing his arm. 50/50 has never been done. MVP usually goes to the best player on the best team. Guys who don't win the MVP despite crazy season is because of the team standing.
a rod in texas says hello.
Gotta love the NY media narrative. Ohtani is doing this in a season in which Betts and Muncy have been out, Freeman has missed time, the Dodgers pitching staff has been depleted, and yet they still have the best record in baseball. If his offensive numbers are similar to Lindor's, the Dodgers are probably in 3rd place given the amount of injuries they've sustained.
Ohtani is basically carrying the team (again) and made history with 44/44 but making history isn't part of NY but still living in the past.
@trburns826 EXACTLY THAT. LMAO NYers sorry fuckers with their poverty team that nobody wants to sign with.
The Dodgers have a considerably better roster than the Mets. Ohtani doesn’t play the field. Lindor plays the most important position in baseball and is a terrific fielder. He is basically carried the team in the last couple of months.
You want to talk about injuries, the Mets Ace has been out the entire year leaving behind a rather average starting staff at best. I believe right now. Lindor is more valuable to the Mets and Ohtani is the Dodgers. It is close so I might say.
Poor dodgers
He is only half a player this year
Stop trying to make a case for Lindor. It’s hilarious the only winner for this year‘s NL MVP is ohtani.and the closest guy to ohtani in the MVP race is Marcell Ozuna
Wrong
You're looking at AVG, HR, RBIs, and OPS. Ozuna is another DH, meaning he is designated to HIT. If four stats make him the best player in an entire half of a league, then you really need to watch more baseball.
@@ryanperez6850it makes ohtani the second best in the world after judge 🤷♂️
Listen again to the experts, obviously you were not paying attention. ⚾
marcell ozuna is has significantly lower fwar than lindor
Ohtani 45-45 is history
Congratulations every other day some player makes some type of history doesn’t make him an mvp
@@lildripnation3462 clear MVP, cry about it little buddy
@@たかちゃん-j3q no one’s crying why would I cry for a fraud who has never made the playoffs in their career
@@lildripnation3462 this comment just told everyone how much you know ball
@@lildripnation3462 also both have 0 rings so stfu
These are some bias comments lol if pitching can win mvp dh can also win it especially on historic season
If everyone can do what ohtani is doing as a dh then make lindor as a dh and see if he can take 40hr and 50sb ohtani is hitting 40hr while pitcher and sb 25+ win less attempts last few years
Shohei didn't get the perfect lineup for the Dodgers until like the last 10 games, he played all the games of the season and helped carrying the team so much especially the first half of the season and now that the lineup is complete, he is focused on the history he can make in the Dodgers because he probably only have this season to make it before he starts pitching again. Considering that he is the MVP apart from his stats speaking for him.
Can someone please explain to me how Lindor can possibly win MVP and not make the all star team ? Lindor is amazing btw….huge fan, Ohtani is also going to do 50/50 so 🤷♂️
There have been MVPs in baseball that haven’t mad the all star team before. Its about what he does in his all-around play.
It's really pretty simple. The all star team voting is finished before the first half of the season is even over, or somewhere around there. Lindor had a slow start to the season so his stats weren't very good when voting was done. All star team is kind of a popularity contest too. Sometimes players who aren't having good seasons still get voted in and vice versa. IMO MVP votes are a far better way of gauging a player's season than an all star selection.
@@Ffollies
you are right that popularity plays a part but that’s only for the starters. But the reserves are voted on by a combination of player ballot and the Commissioner’s office.
So not only did the fans think Lindor wasn’t worthy, his own peers didn’t think so either.
Another point I want to address is why would a player deserve MVP for being awesome for half a season?
It’s true that non all stars have won MVP but Shoehei has not only been awesome but number 1 all season long and continues to be.
Something to think about.
Ask Bryce Harper lol
@@playlistiphone8743 Oh okay I didn't know about how the reserves were voted on. So I guess the reason he wasn't even voted as a reserve was because of his slow start. While I think Shohei deserves the MVP, he's also had slumps too, it just so happened that Lindor's happened during the first half, while Shohei's had some struggles in the second half. I think one must look at overall numbers and Lindor's are great as well, though I'd still pick Shohei. Also have to think about Lindor's defense. Playing great defense at a premium position.
What a stupid question.. ohtani is the mvp and possibly the greatest baseball player ever
This is a dumb debate now
i like how he gives examples of players who SHOULD have won the MVP but didn't as a reason to give the MVP to lindor.
They are desperately looking for a reason to give it to someone else this season because if Ohtani goes back to being a two-timer after next year, he can win the MVP every year.
Lindor is having a good season. Ohtani is historic.
Defense doesn't matter as Acuña won last year and had a negative defensive stat. So defense didn't matter last year.. Ohtani doesn't have negative defensive stat.
Of course Ohtani doesn’t have negative defensive stat, the man never plays defense. And the years he was pitching/batting the only thing he had to worry about is to not allow hits if the ball landed near him.
Contrary to Lindor who’s doing PHENOMENAL NUMBERS BOTH DEFENSIVELY AND OFFENSIVELY. One of the best two-way players in recent years and an awesome leader and captain both on and off the field.
No dissrespect to Ohtani whatsoever, I think he’s out of this world.
“Defense doesn’t matter” is such an ignorant statement when considering the value of a player.
@@NGLaw56You can take tonight's Mets win as an example. Great double plays for 3 innings straight. And 3 doubles that became singles to thanks to the outfielders.
Defense is so underrated.
He actually has a negative defensive stat by design according to fangraphs metric. He's been given a deduction of -13 points the last time I checked just because he's a DH. Lol
Lindor has an .830 OPS and batting around .270 and the Mets could miss the playoffs. Literally an forgettable but solid season. Shoheis season even if he doesn’t get 50-50 will be remembered and chased years down the line. Absolute joke this is even a discussion. Ozuna is having a better season than Lindor.
great point. historic season that will be talked about and remembered compared to a normal equivalent all star season.
Ron Darling’s past with the mets im sure had no bias. Lol😂
What are we talking about here?
Non conversation. Shohei has surpassed 43/43 already on his way to a historic 50/50 season.
The fact shohei has a chance for a 50/50 season which has never been done before, I don’t even know why they are bringing up lindor. He has zero chance. It’s not being disrespectful it’s just the truth
Shohei is the MVP. This is the problem with MLB, they don't know how to market and promote their biggest stars. Shohei is having another historic season while rehabbing from TJS. Lindor deserves to be in consideration but Shohei is your MVP and it's good for baseball.
😂Lindor can't even join the AllAtar roster😅
If Ohtani doesn’t get a unanimous MVP vote there is something very wrong
Ohtani leads the National League in home runs, runs, OPS and bWAR. He also has 46 stolen bases. How can you make an argument for Lindor?
51/51MVP
we all know ohtani is going to win mvp. lindor numbers are not close
Lindor would have THE WORST OPS by an MVP in 40+ years vs a 50/50 seasons
But not the worst WAR or ops+. There may be others but he’d at least have Jimmy Rollins beat. Ops+ is important because it controls for different offensive environments each year. Judging how much better a player is than the average player that year is more useful when trying to compare between different years.
Looking at the last 40 years, Lindor has a better bwar than 2021 Harper, 2006 Morneau, 2006 Howard, 2004 Guerrero, 2002 Tejada, 1998 Gonzalez, 1996 Gonzalez, 1995 Vaughn, 1995 Larkin, 1993 Thomas, 1991 Pendleton, 1989 Yount, 1987 Bell, 1987 Dawson, 1986 Schmidt, 1984 Hernandez. That’s 20% of all MVP recipients in that time frame. Lindor’s season isn’t over yet so that list may grow. He may not have the gaudy 1st base/corner outfield numbers but he has provided a lot of value, and the Mets would almost certainly be out of it without him. Idk if I’d vote for him but I wouldn’t toss aside his case
yeah, this seems crazy.
Ohtani is going to hit 50/50 with around a 300 average and ops over 1 WHILE rehabbing from a major arm surgery that keeps pitchers down for 18 months. What is even the discussion
lindor has higher fwar because in addition to being one of the best hitters in the NL, he is also the best fielder in the NL. Ohtani hasnt taken the field once this season.
@@theasmrhistorian8238 the NPCs are out in full effect now. Ohtani has a much higher bwar and absolutely dwarves Lindor in every category. Cope harder
@@andrewadamsSOTR Ohtani is a much better hitter that cannot be disputed but lindor value Is that he’s isn’t just a great hitter not elite but great it’s that he is a great hitter and a elite level defender in a premium position if ohtani is pitching he wins it every time no contest but he is not no matter what kind of offensive season he is having he is a DH and they have never won for a reason
@@andrewadamsSOTR the npcs are out in full effect now, Lindor has a much higher fwar and while he is not a dwarf as you are suggesting, he is a platinum glove defender, and ohtani has literally not taken the field once, thus dwarfing him in that category.
This is the worst comparison/debate ever. It's like comparing a bicycle to a BMW.
If it is so easy for Shohei to do what he is doing this season, why arent all the other DH's doing the same or similar?????
Shohei is the MVP, stop this nonsense. ⚾
On one side people complain that the MLB pages are constantly pumping out Ohtani content and that it becomes tiresome but whenever I see this kind of topic... they clearly are not doing it enough.
Because it's somehow a "close" MVP race between a dude batting 292/377/617, OPS+ of 177 with 44 HRs, 99 RBIs, 111Rs... and 46 SBs to boot against a guy with 273/343/500, OPS+ of 137, 30HRs, 84 RBIs, 97 Rs and... good for him, 26 SBs.
And you can't even go at it from the "team success" angle because are SEVEN GAMES behind in their own division and out of the Wild Card spots while the Dodgers are literally leading the National League.
Oh, and spare me the "what about defense" bullshit. Instead of batting and pitching at the same time I think the craziest thing Ohtani has made in this league is make people start to ardently bring up defense to MVP discussions, and it's never a Golden Glove caliber defender, nope, it's a bang average or slightly above average caliber defender at their position like Judge at CF or Lindor at SS.
Now, focusing on Ohtani and his individual stats that you mentioned, how much of those stats do you attribute to the Dodgers success on the team’s record? I believe Ohtani numbers make little to no difference in the team winning games because the team is loaded with other phenomenal players. They are way too comfortable for Ohtani to worry about putting numbers to make the team win games.
Lindor’s case is extremely different. You can almost 100% say that he single-handlely has the Mets in contention for a wildcard spot fighting with the Braves and Diamondbacks. If it wasn’t for Lindor, Mets would’ve been history this season a long time ago.
@@RabiaaHQ
Well, BA/OBP/SLG and OPS+ are individual stats that anyone in any team can mostly get, so those are basically not affected at all. In regards to RBIs he has batted 1st for the better part of the season, I guess it depends on how good the bottom of the lineup is. Runs scored he gets a boost since better batters go behind him. Stolen bases also don't think are particularly affected.
Interestingly enough Ohtani has 9 IBB and Lindor has none, but that's mostly a cheeky stat I like to bring up, it doesn't hold any real weight.
Again, I started saying I didn't hold team success in that high regard, but if that's the way we wanna go then why not talk about Ketel Marte, for example. The Diamondbacks are up there in the fight for the Wild Card. I get they went to the WS last year, but is not like they are a murderers' row like the Dodgers. And without him they got mauled by the Dodgers last week. His oWAR is 1.2 less than Lindor, but has over 150 fewer plate appearances so it kind of balances out.
If I didn't know any better I would think that all the Lindor talk is because he is a New York Met, but I know the media wouldn't dare to favor a guy that plays in New York, that would never happen.
@@RabiaaHQyou have no idea and not watched the dodgers this season . That lineup has been decimated by injuries all year and Shohei has absolutely carried that offense.
Ron Darling a former Met, arguing for a Met to win MVP over a player putting up historic numbers...
If Ohtani gets 50/50, Lindor has 0 chance. That simple.
Lindor has 0 chance as is!
I like Lindor and he's having a good season. But he is not close to what Ohtani has been done this season. There is no doubt that Ohtani had a great impact and contributed to the Dodgers' victory as a DH. In that respect, he is no different from a defensive player.
WAR went too far... it's a good reference stat, but don't take this as a bible, please. We still need to do an eye test as well. Lindor is a great player, but his statline doesn't really translate to wow he is the ultimate MVP contender. Yes, Ohtani is only DH and Lindor is SS but then how come Witt Jr gets no love for AL MVP race even though he plays SS while leading the league in Avg plus going to have 30 30 season... Lindor is barely hittinf over .270 so not even sure why they try to push hard against 51 51...
Ohtani is not the first DH ever, yet he’s the first to possibly accomplish 50/50
This is disrepect to sohei..
When you become a great player for the Dodgers they will always find a way to try and find someone else
It's wild to hear anyone make a case against the guy making history.
I don't care if Lindor wins MVP over Ohtani. Ohtani still greater at making history of baseball and he will be remembered for over a century. His footprint will be way bigger than any award.
When Ohtani was with the Angels and was making a difference and holding the team afloat, you cited that MVP is a team but should be for the game, baseball. he was a pitcher and a DH both elite stats and has a high WAR even as a DH. Angels did not go post season not because Ohtani sucks it is just unfortunate that he was on a team that is not doing well. He can be superman but will still not win a game. Baseball is a team game. Now that he is making history and again valuable to the game for getting more audiences and making the game enjoyable to watch because he is trying to break and make history, you have excuses again that he cannot win MVP because no DH has ever done it or gotten it. Did it state in the criteria that to be an MVP, a DH is not included? Did it say only fielders are suppose to become MVP or sluggers? My point is, give the award to where it is due. just my thoughts.
One is breaking records...the other is just surprising people lol. Is this even a comparison? xD
He's not surprising anyone who has actually seen him play over the years, whats surprising people is that he has carried this rag tag Mets team to 11 games over .500 and half a game back from the last wildcard spot. Everyone knew the Dodgers would be good this year and if anything theyve underwhelmed. Factor in that Lindor is the unquestioned captain of this Mets team (whereas Ohtani is more demure and soft spoken), and he's a gold glove caliber short stop and you can see that whereas Ohtani has the pure statistical greatness on his side, Lindor has all the intangibles that are so important to a club
@@KnowledgeNerd123 This is baseball. Ohtani carried LAD for majority of the season when all the starts were injured and half the pitching staff is out.
To say that Ohtani wasn't the difference maker is objectively a LIAR
Yes, this is baseball, thanks for clearing that up I thought we were talking about pickle ball for a minute. No doubt Ohtani has carried the dodgers for most of the season but Lindor has carried his team up and above expectations. The Dodgers aren't the only team that has dealt with injuries and poor play just FYI. @@RunForPeace-hk1cu
Lindor is having one of the greatest years for a shortstop and his carried the Mets over the last 2 1/2 months. He plays the most important position in baseball. He is definitely extremely valuable to the Mets without him. They would be sub 500 the Dodgers have been, a great regular season team for many years without Ohtani
@@bosstime2010
Too many sports fans think like you and it blows my mind.
What you’re saying is if Ohtani and Lindor switch teams, than the Mets would be worse.
No one carries the Mets just like no one carried the Nationals back in 2019 when they started 19-31 first 50 games. Then went on a tear after the All-Star break that culminated in World Series win that no one saw coming.
No one was advocating for Anthony Rendon for MVP and saying stuff like “Nats would not be a .500 team without him” and all that jive. The bottom line is that batting .274 with 30 home runs does not make a worthy MVP against someone who has already made baseball history with 20 or so more games to go.
Is Lindor making history?
this is not even close. Ohtani has MVP locked up. Lindor had an amazing season but he will not beat out Ohtani. This should not even be a story.
OHTANI CASE CLOSED. Nobody stops what they are doing to watch Lindor 😂
That's your argument?? 😂
I think WAR is getting a little out of control. Would Mookie Betts have a higher WAR if he was playing SS instead of RF? The Dodgers moved him back to RF. Is there a good chance his WAR at SS would be higher but the team is worse?
what are they smoking
Frank Thomas won 2 MVPs not sure if he did it as a DH but he was a DH for a long time.
Realistically Lindor is currently the strong 2nd for the MVP. He will get 1st place votes for sure, but Ohtani's offense is on another level. I did think more into the question proposed if Lindors gold glove defense is worth more than 20 HR and 20 stolen bases, as I think that's really what it's going to come down to, so I think it's valuable to look at defensive runs saved which I believe for lindor is a little less than 20...interesting thought but yeah, Ohtani wins it unless the Mets make the playoffs and Lindor finds his way to 35/35 at the least then maybe it'll be a bit closer
again, just think they're doing their job as the media to not have the 2 MVPs be so obviously judge and ohtani. A race is more exciting
This is a joke right? If someone is considering voting Lindor ahead of Ohtani, they should lose all voting privileges immediately.
Lindor’s defensive stats is good but it’s only and not special. Rwar is the only stat that Lindor is better than ohtani.
Ohtani plays only as a DH but stats is historical . MVP is ohtani. Over
So many shortstops in MLB putting up same numbers as Lindor but no one is saying they should be MVP
Ohtani is winning by a long shot ! How is this even a question
Twitter is full of Mets supporters making fun of Ohtani in order to promote Lindor as the MVP.
Mets fan here OHTANI is the goat simple 50/50 is crazy
lol...this is too funny...ohtani might just decide to play the centerfield for kicks and win a gold glove just to prove a point...cmon let's be serious
i dont even know who lindor is
Than you're not a fan of the sport and that's okay.
He yo daddy.
Ohtani takes the mvp 100% if he reaches 50/50. As great as I think Ohtani is, he probably won’t get another 50/50 year.
lol mlb writers just constantly putting someone in front of Ohtani to harm his value
first judge (back in the AL days when ohtani also pitched), then harper, then ketel, then now even Lindor? lol
what a joke
Well these guys are from New York, makes sense.
Osuna too lol
I get it. Casual fans only consider offensive numbers. Baseball is about offense, pitching, and defense. If Ohtani was pitching this season, he'd run away and be a unanimous MVP. But he isn't pitching. He is only hitting. It isn't his fault that he was injured, but he just is only playing 1/3 of the game, while Lindor is excelling at 2/3 of the game. I think Ohtani will win it. And I'll applaud it, but the obnoxious thing about the whole debate is the silly narrative that Lindor doesn't deserve to be in the discussion. If Ohtani wins it, and I think he will ... it will be because he had a historic offensive season. Lindor is the best player ... on offense and defense ... for a team that wouldn't be sniffing the playoffs without him. Give him his due. He's a legit candidate, even though he will likely lose it to Ohtani ... who is an amazing player, and very deserving of MVP.
Look at the 2022 AL MVP. Defense is meaningless in front of a historic offense.
Get real 🤡
@@gzbdkfjgxnxm You are joking, I assume. Judge played excellent OF that year.
Man, Ohtani by himself is making it so all the guys who can't hit a ball to save their lives but have a nice glove can keep their careers alive in the minors. Never in my live I have seen "defense" be so ardently brought up in MVP discussions as in the last 3 years with Ohtani's rivals.
@@ХорхеГарсия-э5е That is because defense was always assumed in the process. There is a reason that a DH has never been MVP. Thinking fans know defense matters. It just does.
@@dashx1103
This argument would carry so much more weight if 25 PITCHERS hadn't won it, and from position players the highest represented position is... oh, so weird, FIRST BASEMAN with 35... dang. Who would have thought the two least "defensive" positions in the game would have won 60 out of... let me check... 2 MVPs per season since 1931... 186 MVPs.
So an almost literal one every 3rd MVP is a dude in the least valuable defensive positions in the entire game. But yeah, "defense was always assumed in the process", got it.
Lindor has one of the best season in his career but that's doesn't change the fact that Shohei is still better than him. MVP must be given base on performance not sympathy feeling.
Bwar includes defense and still ohtani higher. Lol. Fielding is THE easiest aspect of baseball.
Fresh legs lol 😂😂😂😂😂
Who other dh steals like him?
OHTANI doesn't even need to play
defense tohave those numbers!!
Lindor is not mvp
why is this even a conversation? baseball heads have nothing to drama about
His "leadership" so unserious lmao
i remember for the longest time how mets fans were talking about Lindor not being a leader at all in the clubhouse. like remember the lindor vs mcniel fight?
now all of a sudden hes a leader. give me a break.
So leadership is a actual numeric stat now? Come on...
Idc, Lindors defensive presence is worth 10 HRs and 20 SBs, the WAR demonstrates that. Ok, it’s a crazy OFFENSIVE season, that’s why there’s the Hank Aaron Award. To win MVP as a DH you need to break the single season HR record. Getting a bunch of steals in this era isn’t impressive. Rickie Henderson would have more steals than ABs in todays game
Not a chance he’s winning MVP over Shohei
As a mets fan the award will go to Ohtani. Based on the metrics for what a MVP is in baseball there is no actual precedent where the player who is more valuable to a team wins it. Monster/historic seasons = MVP. Trout won 3 and the angels dont compete at all. Shohei same story. Bryce, bonds. The list goes on. The dodgers can be out of playoff contention and Ohtani would win it.
Lindor wasn't even an ALLSTAR lol, not even close good luck. You are literally going against Goliath.
Is this even an argument? Although a DH has never won an MVP, Ortiz (DH) had close batting stats with A-Rod (third baseman) in 2005 but lost by a narrow margin. Lindor and Ohtani's batting stats are not even close.
you're not getting an mvp with a .840 ops. Get to .900 and then we can talk..
Lindor only wins MVP if he maintains his production and defense and we get a MASSIVE Ohtani slump or he gets injured. Season ends rn and Ohtani wins. If Shohei goes 50/50 then he wins a third.
good season for lindor but shohei's is just in another level+ he's making history broo while rehabbing...
The keyword here is "Valuable" at the end they're going to have to see if Shohei's extra offensive stats are worth more than Lindor's defensive stat's.
I'm a Dodger fan and still think Ohtani should win MVP, but what I never see mentioned is how god awful he's been with runners in scoring position. As I'm writing this comment he's batting .218 with an OPS of .681 with RISP.
The Dodgers 5-9 hitters have been terrible this whole season, and as a leadoff hitter, Ohtani has to be able to seize those rare opportunities when those 5-9 hitters get in scoring position if the Dodgers don't want to blow it in the playoffs again.
At no point during this discussion was it mentioned that Ron Darling works for and is paid by the New York Mets.
I have never heard a good shortstop player with 830OPS gets MVP. If he gets MVP with this stats, Ohtani should get MVP for next 10 years if he both pitch and hit.
Official definition of MVP:
Dear Voter:
There is no clear-cut definition of what Most Valuable means. It is up to the individual voter to decide who was the Most Valuable Player in each league to his team. The MVP need not come from a division winner or other playoff qualifier.
The rules of the voting remain the same as they were written on the first ballot in 1931:
1. Actual value of a player to his team, that is, strength of offense and DEFENSE.
2. Number of games played.
3. General character, disposition, loyalty and effort.
4. Former winners are eligible.
5. Members of the committee may vote for more than one member of a team.
The best player on the Mets vs the best player of NL league chasing 50/50, which no one has ever achieved before.
Would people really choose a player baded on their WAR? Did anyone care that John Olerud had a higher WAR than Mark McGuire in 1998 when he hit 70 home runs? Did anyone think Kevin Kiermaier was the second best player in the league when he hit .260 with 10 home runs and great defense? I Don't think people are going to talk about Lindor's memorable 2024 season that he hit ,270 with 32 home runs and 90 RBI. I don't know if people are delusional or just biased
What is Lindors batting average
To bat 300 pts less, have 15ish less homers and SB....To probably not make the playoffs....Lindor has been suuuuuper cold at times...Ohtani no
Ohtani should win he has the best season, if he loses then MLB is fraudalent
Ohtani if he goes 50/50
Whatever, if the Sho marks 50/50 end of discussion.
This wouldn’t even be an argument if Ohtani was out there pitching (competitively) every 5 days while also putting up these number at the plate. If that were the case, then there’s no question! Ohtani is MVP! But since it isn’t the case and Francisco Lindor has had games where he’s 0-4 and still contributed to his team’s W significantly. Simply due to his defense.
It brings up the real question about the numbers and the MVP consideration. There hasn’t been a single game this season where Ohtani has gone of 0-ANYTHING and still contributed to his teams win. Maybe with Sac flies or walks etc. However, he hasn’t played a single inning defensively or on the mound, Which ultimately will take a toll on your body over the span of an entire season (assuming he stays healthy while being an “Ace” pitcher; pitching regularly) and also the best hitter on your team.
1) he would’ve had less ABs because of rest days in between outings.
2) he wouldn’t be stealing as much to protect his legs for pitching.
3) he wouldn’t have the privilege of just hitting and not worrying about absolutely anything else as an MLB player. (Compared to Lindor who’s playing such a demanding position both physically and mentally).
Personally, (and it may be my own biased choice due to the fact that I’m a Mets fan (although it probably has nothing to do with it)). I think Lindor is More deserving right now.
You put some of those numbers into context and compare them with an everyday (defensive) player and Lindor would be ahead. Lindor has player over 135 games inning in and inning out.
I think that there’s more value in a grade A defensive player with grade potential batting than a grade A+ batting player with 0 defensive value during an entire season.
Just a personal preference, however.
If Mets make the playoffs then it should go to Lindor because Ohtani has Freemen and Betts in the lineup with him. It’s the award for the biggest difference maker for their team. Without Lindor the Mets are not in contention at all. Same can’t be said for Ohtani.