Bead lock great change but what you'll notice is 20 to 40 ft out she will be more sensitive to loosing traction and going up in smoke and it will be more sensitive to track prep and temperature.....with the good comes the bad.....
Yes, for one, I watch Cleetus for entertainment, I watch Steve Morris for knowledge. And entertainment. Yea, there are others but these might be my main two. And KSR.
If you like the deep cut kinda stuff also check out Jafromobile. Totally different, he's not building 4k hp cars but his presentation and methodology is astounding and the depth of information is amazing. Great calming voice, too.
Tire shake like you are experiencing can just as easily be that you are not putting enough power into it. Once you have reached the power range that actually makes the sidewalls on those huge tires do their job, you are in the pocket of traction you want, all be it at the bottom of the pocket. You need that tire to slip all the way till it gets up. When it slips and grabs and slips and grabs, (shaking) that is your tire getting pissed off from too much initial inertia and not enough slip. You can either loosen up the hit with less tire pressure, stage rpm or boost or put more power into it to get the perfect amount of slip. You are now in the range that we top alcohol racers deal with on every pass. You need to play with tire pressures, stage rpm, boost and converter for every pass depending on track conditions. The track is now king, you need to listen to what it tells you. Also fyi, in top alcohol cars they mostly run 34.5 tires, the A-fuel cars run 36s. Bigger roll out doesn't necessarily mean better. It depends on where your engine makes peak power. You might try a 34.5 tire if this experiment doesn't work for you. I'm assuming a turbo methanol car will react similarly to a blown methanol dragster. Also Hoosiers are a lot more greasy on the track then a Good Year in my experience.
"Stretching" the tire like that is also seen in small tire classes. The 275 guys been doing it for years with great success. Never thought of the pro mod/top fuel ratings for wheels before. Thats nutty
Its crazy how the faster drag racing gets the more the cars lean toward a radial tire style setup. No prep cars are running steep bar angles for separation to drive the tire into the ground, now big tire cars are stretching tires for sidewall control. I love it
That's not really true the fastest cars aren't running radials and the prep on a radial track is ridiculous this is only happening because tire height limits and most of the 1/8 mile guy's run this because the run is over at 1/2 track where the 1/4 guy's want that tire to grow and mph ath the top end basically this is not a nhra thing
Love the content Steve. Way back in the day, I was tuner on friends Real Street car in NMRA, 2000-2003, I used an Anderson Ford PMS. Class has been gone for quite a number of years now. But 26x10 slick mandate, 306CI max. Off the shelf heads, intake (had small list of parts allowed, 2.02int 1.6ex max valve, had to run factory camshaft, in this case was a 1989 Mustang)No porting allowed, off the shelf power adder, mandated pulley for dif SC applications, no turbos. Single stage N2O. N2O application were single nozzle before throttle blade wet or dry system. Mandatory 5 speed, proshifted trans mods allowed (no syncros, just blip the gas and yank) but had to be factory style H-type shift (there was a list of allowed trans). We went from a 15x8 rim to a 15x10. Car went from 1.37-1.40 60s to 1.31-1.33. Car went best 9.63 @141.7.
Thanks Steve for just being you!!! It’s great to watch you teach and explain things that we all have questions about. And another thing I respect about you is that you constantly remind us that you can always learn something new!!!
@@Spudstrodamus An "Old Saying" is *Not* a physics equation. I assumed Steve's audience was well enough educated to understand the difference. I'll put this down as a *Teachable Moment*. Rotating mass will effect acceleration more than static mass--and it's clearly not a 16:1 ratio! I thought "Old Saying" would have made clear that it was simply a *realization* that was made long before modern methods of quantifying the actual physics were available to anyone. So 15 people understood the meaning, and for the outliers, you now have a better understanding of the subtleties of the English language! Good Day to all! And now I'm going to play Wordle.
I just love seeing and hearing Steve get all Geeked out about any and every thing that has to do with going faster! As Always, May God Bless you and yours! 😇
That's like people don't understand why a 28 is a small tire and 29 is a big. They don't understand that a taller tire with low pressure makes it have a longer tread patch
@@jeremymackevincaylor5041no that is not the case . A 29 is bigger than a 28 but it’s personal opinion on what constitutes a big tire . I would say over anything 30 inches tall and 12 inches wide is big tire .
@jeremymackevincaylor5041 no offense, but your opinion doesn't matter. Rule sets matter. Promoters and organizations make rules. Almost everywhere than races "small tire" classes has the same rules 28x10.5 non W (275/60 15 if fhey allow radials). Some places in the bread basket go 29x10.5 non W. Show up with anything bigger they are gonna put you in a "big tire" class. Period
In architectural terms, look up the flying buttress wall construction which stabilizes a vertical wall design. The inclined sidewall is doing the same.
Same trick the 275 radial guys use, most were running 10 inch wide rims some running 12 inch wide rims. But all the guys who hook up and set records we're using 14 inch wide double beadlock rims.😎😎😎
@@dr.beardie9894 Right, that's the point of small tire but not no prep. No prep is just stupid, especially combined with small tire, minimum traction "racing".
As you are tightening the bead lock ring, make sure the inner lip of the tire is not being smashed under the lock ring. I usually need to use a flat-blade screw driver to poke the inner tire lip over the raised ledge of the wheel.
Your putting the sidewall under tension with the wider wheel. Not allowing the contact patch to move side to side. Essentially controlling the tire by limiting how much it can move laterally.
I did this to my road bicycle a few years ago. I went to wider carbon fiber wheels, 25c tires, and lowered the tire pressure, and it improved the tire contact patch as well as reduced rolling resistance, and improved the sidewall bead to rim interface aerodynamics.
The Grin,Kyle Smile, Dewey Cameo, never gets old, makes one pay attention to "The Caution" !! Like watching the mind bending look on Steve's face ,as he ,thinks
these emojis are priceless and spot on brother... Steve is a character and one of my favorite racers. When you get into the meat and potatoes of the data it gets thick lol cant wait for him to try these out
The term your looking for to observe the overall shape is called the profile. The center of the tread area is called the crown/treadface. The edges are shoulders. Your tire heighth is shorter because your stretching the beads. Putting wider wheels on is gonna help with tire shake because your already putting tension against the "slack" of the sidewall, making it not have as much range left to work with as your givin it hell. Love your videos! -Your friendly tire tech 🫡
We did this on our stock eliminator car in 1982. Running on 9" X 29.5" slicks. We went from a 8" wheel to a 10" wheel. It laid the tread flatter on the track, and eliminated tire growth at speed. We actually could get a tiny bit of tire shake even in a stocker... You needed to make a slight change in gear ratio if you still needed the growing tire vs trap engine RPM. When I stepped up to Super Gas in a 2350# small block Opel GT and was running 150MPH in the traps, I was running a 13X30 Goodyear comp eliminator tire on a 13" wheel. got a little bit of tire growth but the recommended wheel for that tire "at the time" was a 10"-12" wheel. Both cars ate up the wider wheels. Yeah, it matters no matter what horsepower you're running. I sure do miss racing... But at 68yo now I won't ever get back to it.
The change in wheel width changes tire sidewall preload. Thats the technical description you seemed to be looking for Steve. I have used this same concept on my own racecar. I run a 245 wide street tire on a 10" wide wheel to maximize preload. Which vastly increased turn in response. Its a more known concept on track cars than drag cars. You can control sidewall deflection to a degree with use of wheel width. Which is pretty cool stuff.
On our mountain motor pro-stock we first started with the Good Year 34.5 X 17X 16. Had major issues with tire roll up. Switched to the Hoosier 34.5 X17X16 and the issue went away. The Hoosier tire has a thicker sidewall and is now as prone to the tire roll up we were experiencing. I can see why the wider rim would help with that as well.
The tracks today are lot more sticky than the past an makes it hard for slick guys to get down with out bunch of challenges. I run 33 10.5 w 3300lbs with 13 to 14 lbs air. I was running 5 to 6 lbs years ago. The tire shake is brutal. Trying to get wheel speed on some tracks surface is rough an takes a lot of changes. Thanks for sharing guys be safe
To me it would be close to the same 8.5ish inches tall because the ID and OD of the tire are pretty well set. But the wider wheel is kinda “pulling” on the side wall already and will in turn create more strength by utilizing the tensile strength of the side wall. Very very cool. I’ve never even thought about any of this. Thanks for making my gears spin!!!! Love the channel.
Back in the day we used to use a wheel that was a few inches wider than the tire just to square off and flatten contact patch. I never gave much thought to the science of tire flex but at the same time, we weren’t running anywhere near the horsepower that you have.
I love learning stuff about your hot rods. They are so sweet. I’m glad you got a huge budget to keep things moving forward. Very fast forward. Stay well !!!!
I think I got all that but...I also have a headache 😂😂😂 I can't wait to see how ti's works. Another great Video. Sending love from our family to yours. Stay Blessed ❤
If you notice most of your faster no prep small tire run the wider bead locks on the 28/10.5 tire to me it makes the tire patch square and flatter to the track as the narrow wheel makes a arch in tire tread patch should have better contact to the surface
Tires are integral to going fast and being safe. Hope this solves your problems and helps you go faster. Just opened my new t-shirt of the world’s fastest steel bodied wagon. Keep up the great job.
I am old and years ago I bought the Direct Connection chassis books. They were big on reducing rotating weight as one of the secrets to going fast. Good Luck Steve and thanks for the great content .
We use this exact same method to adjust our stagger on our dirt race go karts. The wider wheels give us a smaller circumference with the same tire size.
Nice video, very educational. There is a fine line between under powering the tire and not shaking (which is what most of us do) and over powering the tire and spinning. You were running the old tire combination in between these two points and in the shake zone. You needed to add power the prevent the shake, but not so much power that you would spin.
Interesting, one thing to keep an eye on it sidewall getting wore out if it's stiffer. You may need to replace at more frequent intervals. Can't wait to see what difference you feel in the seat if any. I know circle track it made a huge difference in the 90s with those tires I'm kinda a drag racing noob so seeing these tech heavy episodes is really helpful for understanding the why
Our buddy Dewey had us rolling as usual. LOL On the wheel change--Adam D. shared this with us long ago and it was surprising that you didn't run a beadlock. Assumed you did and what you'll also notice with the new wheel is the car will want to break the tires loose down track as more boost is added so you may want to look at adding a wicker bill for downforce but the downside is a dead air zone so your chutes will need some help with blossoming. Cheers!
Hatchbacks are real bad with lift from the turbulence as well. Seen it pick the back end up on the big end in smaller lighter car and throw them into the wall. Always been surprised he runs with no wing
Worked in the tire industry for a few years. We had Logghe Brothers back in early 70's. They were very popular in the NHRA chassis builds. We did there tire and wheels. Inflating my first slick was a definte learning lesson. The 2 ply side wall gave a high velocity pop enough to move the tire machine.
with the sidewalls parallel the car will shift side to side , the wide wheel the side wall are angled opposite which is like adding 2 gussets to a frame it helps control the side to side
Centrifugal force makes the tire get “skinnier” and wrinkle more with the skinnier wheels. That same centrifugal force on the wider wheels is squaring off the sidewalk and contact patch .
The wider wheel stiffens the sidewall by stretching it out wider. It keeps the slick from going into paddle as easy. It lets you keep the softer sidewall in a big tire but act more like a stiff wall and have less paddle and more stability down track
The shortest distance between two points is a straight line. when you put the tire on a wider wheel you are changing the relation of the edge of the tread contact and where the bead falls. 17" wide tire on a 17" wide wheel the bead should be directly straight down from the edge of the tread edge. 17" wide tire on a 20" wheel, from edge of tire to the bead is now at a slight angle making the overall tire shorter. I hope that all came out right... Keep up the awesome content Steve!!
For a person that doesn’t have a race car I sure am soaking up some knowledge that I will probably never use😂. Every video you do is VERY interesting! Thank you Steve! Even though the tires are the same size the new wheels sure do change the whole dynamic of the tire. It’s like Jedi mind tricks on the brain😂
Hello Steve, the considerably new wider rim (+4") with the same size tyre is effectively making both sidewall profiles into a triangle shape, unlike your previous wheel/tyre combo which is more oblong in shape....obviously the triangle shape by stretching the sidewalls out is far stronger & superior to deflection which will be better at limiting your tyre shake scenario... Smaller overall rolling circumference is going to gear everything down so a taller first gear is probably a must...really interested to see you testing this set-up👍🇬🇧.
The sidewall is relaxed with the old rim. The wider wheel puts torsion on the sidewall so it’s stiffer. Can’t wait to see the difference. Please make sure to do a follow up. 🍻
At 17:15 of the video notice the amount of bounce the 17" wheel Goodyear tire produced when struck by the heal of Steves hand. A similar strike on the 20" Hoosier combo appeared to produce far less bounce. Maybe indicitive of each combinations liklihood to shake. Great Video.
Steve I really appreciate the way you are leaping to a (informed) conclusion based on early data. I typically do the same thing while early diagnosing a problem. Sometimes I’m right, sometimes I’m wrong. But, like you, I learn from my mistakes and apply the knowledge downstream.
Thanks for talking about what no one else is talking about, I've already can't remember everything you said so I'm going to have to rewatch after I'm finished
Great tech talk sir. Glad to see you're making the change. Honestly big cheif from street outlaws touched on this very thing about a year ago when he was building a small tire car. Small tire guys claim they can use the sidewalls as a traction advantage. Dont hold me to it but I think the cleeter crew runs stretched sidewalls
I think it will help too by when the wheel spins and the centrifugal force tries to throw the tire off (increases circumference) it will reduce the sidewall narrowing and getting sucked inwards towards the center of the wheel. All over better control.of that rotating mass, awesome video 👍👍👍👍
Awsome content as usual. I have been watching and listening to guys who have had your products and your vids for yrs and yrs . I will have to say there is not many humble professionals with your knowledge I will say I can listen to because of their ego's. You are a icon ( ment as a compliment) who I could listen to all day like Clay Millican. Thank you for the informational videos!
Have you ever played with a tire dyno and take an in depth look at tire load to rate of deflection you can learn even more. It aids in syncing your shocks and spring loads to match the tires even further and help to tune the suspension in that much further. Which in turn will all you to continue to yield better results while pushing the car further. In a world where data is everything knowing how much load your tires can take before deflection would be huge for you.
@slowpoke96Z28 yes calculates out load rates on the tire before tire deflection allows you to dial the springs shocks in to achieve maximum tire scotch.
This was very interesting. Back in the late 90’s I was helping with a IHRA Outlaw Street car. The only thing available was bead lock. I have heard of the liner style setup but didn’t know anything about them. It’s funny how some technology seems to go back and forth.
The biggest change is going with a wider wheel than the tire rather than the smaller wheel than the tire. Using a wheel that is wider than the tire will for sure change the overall diameter at high rpm and control that growth of the tire diameter. I am surprised you did not have rubbing issues with that old tire inside that body somewhere. And that will be your new issue to monitor closely in that you will have to watch out for wheel well clearance with any sway what so ever. Looking good though. Glad to see you got those tire engineers on your side helping. So many HP guys forget all the other parts that go into total performance. Horse power gives you a higher top end performance POTENTIAL but traction is a lot of the game getting to that top end range to use that potential gain.
Hi Steve , I am sure that you will like the beadlock and the extra wide rim . Your thoughts on the wide rim controlling the tire shake is 100 % correct! Use it in our motorcycle powered dragster with a T/F motor at 1800 hp
The internal inflatable liner / beadlock locks both the inner and outer bead. Whilst the inner bead is less likely to come off, with those wide wheels with just the outer bead locked, the risk increases. Love the super slow mo footage!
Two things that might make it easier to understand. a/ the tyre is a spring - both an air spring with the air pressure affecting its spring rate, and the sidewall wrap under load. The both deform undr load and when the load is released they try to return to their natural state. Changing air pressure, tyre construction, and wheel width will affect the way they respond, and the speed range where the affect is strongest. b/ think of the tyre on the rim as an "an isosceles trapezium" (who said I'd never use this after school?), with the base the tread and the top the rim (the parallel sides).
Tire manufacturers can vary there size by 3% ,so if you have all three manufacturers same size,doesn't equal the same height and width .always measure the roll out so the car doesn't turn due to diameter difference.
I'm very interested to see if the new wider wheel will allow the tire to grow in diameter at higher speeds. I would think the new wider wheel wouldn't allow the tire to grow as much as with the narrower wheel. This is such an interesting topic! Also your video editing and audio overlay is Great!!!! Thanks Steve! I defiantly learned something on wheel power ratings and other things
Weve been doing this for years on race bikes. On round face tyres, it alters the cross section circumference, giving you a greater contact patch when leant over in the wet.
Good video Steve. I've seen alot of the small tire guys doing this because they are 1000 - 2000 hp on smalls. I would also think you can control wheel speed with this setup. You know everyone will be changing as soon as you are successful in testing.
If I were you, I would do a few passes with the current setup, but with the new tires. Just to see what it does before changing anything else. I understand you can do all the nessasary math and get a pretty good idea what it will do with the new wheels alone. But it is always nice to confirm your calculations so you know exactly what to change to get the results you want.
I noticed you touched on the growth of the tire at the end here, my mind went right to the initial deflection shock into the suspension. So I guess the only way I can think to put it your controlled sidewall theory seems spot on. But assuming the shock of the hit will feel the same down to 100 feet on the same pressure is you wishful thinking. when I do that wishful thinking of "I shouldn't have to mess with it" usually means I mess with it lol keep doing what you're doing Steve and cant wait to see the data you pull from the runs. I'm placing a bet it stands up sooner/firmer on the but dyno at the old pressure, the shock travel on the hit could need some fiddling over pressures if it hooks and then don't. Love the shop pup!!!! I've got a brindle but he just hunts for mice instead of supervise like yours. PS don't forget to floor it
That's the ticket beadlocked, lighter, wider rim pulling the tread down to a shorter height changing the effective gear ratio to a higher numerical number lower gear is going to even take your number higher when you wrinkle it also so your really going to come out of the hole and cut a good light super fast then getting out and rolling the tire will start to stand up a little more and firm getting rid of tire shake out further as you go out and that 20 " wheel keeping your tread in the center instead Of walking left and walking right like it did on your old narrow rim so much more control going to make you grin from ear to ear. Oh you'll be happy bro ! I am glad seeing you do this. I see so many more advantages !
“ At a very minimum, it changes everything.” -Steve Morris
That's a shirt quote if I've ever seen one.
Ha! I got a kick out of that one too.
Agreed! @ the very minimum we need the T-Shirt and maybe Steve needs his own bottled Wadder!
Bead lock great change but what you'll notice is 20 to 40 ft out she will be more sensitive to loosing traction and going up in smoke and it will be more sensitive to track prep and temperature.....with the good comes the bad.....
And don’t forget; Orlando has some really flat walls!
Out of everyone we all watch Steve Morris to me is the best. So down to earth.
Yes, for one, I watch Cleetus for entertainment, I watch Steve Morris for knowledge. And entertainment. Yea, there are others but these might be my main two.
And KSR.
Steve has a way of explaining complex motor functions in a way that a beginner could follow.
I'm just here for the dog.
If you like the deep cut kinda stuff also check out Jafromobile. Totally different, he's not building 4k hp cars but his presentation and methodology is astounding and the depth of information is amazing. Great calming voice, too.
between steve morris and KSR
Only a man that has dedicated his life to building engines and decking heads would be so impressed with how flat something is.
Tire shake like you are experiencing can just as easily be that you are not putting enough power into it. Once you have reached the power range that actually makes the sidewalls on those huge tires do their job, you are in the pocket of traction you want, all be it at the bottom of the pocket. You need that tire to slip all the way till it gets up. When it slips and grabs and slips and grabs, (shaking) that is your tire getting pissed off from too much initial inertia and not enough slip. You can either loosen up the hit with less tire pressure, stage rpm or boost or put more power into it to get the perfect amount of slip. You are now in the range that we top alcohol racers deal with on every pass. You need to play with tire pressures, stage rpm, boost and converter for every pass depending on track conditions. The track is now king, you need to listen to what it tells you. Also fyi, in top alcohol cars they mostly run 34.5 tires, the A-fuel cars run 36s. Bigger roll out doesn't necessarily mean better. It depends on where your engine makes peak power. You might try a 34.5 tire if this experiment doesn't work for you. I'm assuming a turbo methanol car will react similarly to a blown methanol dragster. Also Hoosiers are a lot more greasy on the track then a Good Year in my experience.
Dewey always has the look of- When your done I need a treat...lmao
Definitely needs some ear scratches.
@@porkrindwhat i was thinking too. 😄
"Stretching" the tire like that is also seen in small tire classes. The 275 guys been doing it for years with great success. Never thought of the pro mod/top fuel ratings for wheels before. Thats nutty
275... I don't know metric, what's that in freedom units?
@@_BangDroid_ about half a cow's body width per tire
Its crazy how the faster drag racing gets the more the cars lean toward a radial tire style setup. No prep cars are running steep bar angles for separation to drive the tire into the ground, now big tire cars are stretching tires for sidewall control. I love it
That's not really true the fastest cars aren't running radials and the prep on a radial track is ridiculous this is only happening because tire height limits and most of the 1/8 mile guy's run this because the run is over at 1/2 track where the 1/4 guy's want that tire to grow and mph ath the top end basically this is not a nhra thing
Small thing but if you put the rim inside the tire before mounting beadlock then there is no need to use pry bars and dent the wheels.
Love the content Steve. Way back in the day, I was tuner on friends Real Street car in NMRA, 2000-2003, I used an Anderson Ford PMS. Class has been gone for quite a number of years now. But 26x10 slick mandate, 306CI max. Off the shelf heads, intake (had small list of parts allowed, 2.02int 1.6ex max valve, had to run factory camshaft, in this case was a 1989 Mustang)No porting allowed, off the shelf power adder, mandated pulley for dif SC applications, no turbos. Single stage N2O. N2O application were single nozzle before throttle blade wet or dry system. Mandatory 5 speed, proshifted trans mods allowed (no syncros, just blip the gas and yank) but had to be factory style H-type shift (there was a list of allowed trans). We went from a 15x8 rim to a 15x10. Car went from 1.37-1.40 60s to 1.31-1.33. Car went best 9.63 @141.7.
Thanks Steve for just being you!!! It’s great to watch you teach and explain things that we all have questions about. And another thing I respect about you is that you constantly remind us that you can always learn something new!!!
An old saying from Bicycle racing is "An Ounce off the wheel is worth a Pound off the frame".
So 11 lbs off the wheel dam yea I did the math 176 lol
X2 @@Spudstrodamus
@@Spudstrodamus An "Old Saying" is *Not* a physics equation. I assumed Steve's audience was well enough educated to understand the difference. I'll put this down as a *Teachable Moment*. Rotating mass will effect acceleration more than static mass--and it's clearly not a 16:1 ratio! I thought "Old Saying" would have made clear that it was simply a *realization* that was made long before modern methods of quantifying the actual physics were available to anyone.
So 15 people understood the meaning, and for the outliers, you now have a better understanding of the subtleties of the English language! Good Day to all! And now I'm going to play Wordle.
@@llewellynquay9463 So what is the ratio then?
@@bobbygetsbanned6049 In a car ive always heard taking 1 pound off a wheel (or unsprung weight) is equal to 10 sprung pounds.
I just love seeing and hearing Steve get all Geeked out about any and every thing that has to do with going faster! As Always, May God Bless you and yours! 😇
Wider wheel, creates lower side wall profile, and creates a wider and more controlled contact patch with the same tire. Deep shiz. Good stuff.
That's like people don't understand why a 28 is a small tire and 29 is a big. They don't understand that a taller tire with low pressure makes it have a longer tread patch
@@jeremymackevincaylor5041no that is not the case . A 29 is bigger than a 28 but it’s personal opinion on what constitutes a big tire . I would say over anything 30 inches tall and 12 inches wide is big tire .
@@jkfonyi- Anything bigger than a 28x10.5 is not a “small” tire.
A wider wheel also limits your tire growth at speed
@jeremymackevincaylor5041 no offense, but your opinion doesn't matter. Rule sets matter. Promoters and organizations make rules. Almost everywhere than races "small tire" classes has the same rules 28x10.5 non W (275/60 15 if fhey allow radials). Some places in the bread basket go 29x10.5 non W. Show up with anything bigger they are gonna put you in a "big tire" class. Period
In architectural terms, look up the flying buttress wall construction which stabilizes a vertical wall design. The inclined sidewall is doing the same.
Same trick the 275 radial guys use, most were running 10 inch wide rims some running 12 inch wide rims. But all the guys who hook up and set records we're using 14 inch wide double beadlock rims.😎😎😎
Small tire No Prep racers are doing the same thing.
@@danmyers9372 Small tire no prep lmao, is there a dumber way to race?
@@bobbygetsbanned6049 lower power means its easier to get into racing, not everyone owns a race engine shop
@@dr.beardie9894 Right, that's the point of small tire but not no prep. No prep is just stupid, especially combined with small tire, minimum traction "racing".
As you are tightening the bead lock ring, make sure the inner lip of the tire is not being smashed under the lock ring. I usually need to use a flat-blade screw driver to poke the inner tire lip over the raised ledge of the wheel.
I was watching that and thinking he got really lucky. And then thought he’d get it with one tire spoon lol. Now he knows though.
Your putting the sidewall under tension with the wider wheel. Not allowing the contact patch to move side to side. Essentially controlling the tire by limiting how much it can move laterally.
I did this to my road bicycle a few years ago. I went to wider carbon fiber wheels, 25c tires, and lowered the tire pressure, and it improved the tire contact patch as well as reduced rolling resistance, and improved the sidewall bead to rim interface aerodynamics.
Not only do you sound like a cool guy, you look like one too.
The Grin,Kyle Smile, Dewey Cameo, never gets old, makes one pay attention to "The Caution" !! Like watching the mind bending look on Steve's face ,as he ,thinks
these emojis are priceless and spot on brother... Steve is a character and one of my favorite racers. When you get into the meat and potatoes of the data it gets thick lol cant wait for him to try these out
Love the growth your going through steve, thanks for bringing us along for the ride. Technically speaking 😊
That is a nice-looking wagon wheel.
Looks more like a SpaceX Starship rocket nozzle! Lol That rim is a beast!
Momma rock me like a wagon wheel. Rock me any way you feel. Heyyyyy momma rock me
I never saw the entire car flex like that during the tire shake until the slow motion. Can't imagine how violent that is.
Tire shake actually killed Funny Car racer Eric Medlin back in 2007. Have heard it actually ripped his brain stem loose.
Tire shake on high HP cars is violent as hell, it destroys everything.
Imagine half + of that horsepower being changed Into a reciprocating force with no balance. Of course it's violent!
The term your looking for to observe the overall shape is called the profile.
The center of the tread area is called the crown/treadface.
The edges are shoulders.
Your tire heighth is shorter because your stretching the beads.
Putting wider wheels on is gonna help with tire shake because your already putting tension against the "slack" of the sidewall, making it not have as much range left to work with as your givin it hell.
Love your videos!
-Your friendly tire tech 🫡
We did this on our stock eliminator car in 1982. Running on 9" X 29.5" slicks. We went from a 8" wheel to a 10" wheel. It laid the tread flatter on the track, and eliminated tire growth at speed. We actually could get a tiny bit of tire shake even in a stocker... You needed to make a slight change in gear ratio if you still needed the growing tire vs trap engine RPM. When I stepped up to Super Gas in a 2350# small block Opel GT and was running 150MPH in the traps, I was running a 13X30 Goodyear comp eliminator tire on a 13" wheel. got a little bit of tire growth but the recommended wheel for that tire "at the time" was a 10"-12" wheel. Both cars ate up the wider wheels. Yeah, it matters no matter what horsepower you're running. I sure do miss racing... But at 68yo now I won't ever get back to it.
Don't say that not a dam thing bad about 68 get back into it before it's to late go for it
The change in wheel width changes tire sidewall preload. Thats the technical description you seemed to be looking for Steve. I have used this same concept on my own racecar. I run a 245 wide street tire on a 10" wide wheel to maximize preload. Which vastly increased turn in response. Its a more known concept on track cars than drag cars. You can control sidewall deflection to a degree with use of wheel width. Which is pretty cool stuff.
On our mountain motor pro-stock we first started with the Good Year 34.5 X 17X 16. Had major issues with tire roll up. Switched to the Hoosier 34.5 X17X16 and the issue went away. The Hoosier tire has a thicker sidewall and is now as prone to the tire roll up we were experiencing. I can see why the wider rim would help with that as well.
The wider rim stretches out and stiffens the sidewall even more.
For a minute it looked like Dewey was thanking you for getting him a billet dog dish.
The tracks today are lot more sticky than the past an makes it hard for slick guys to get down with out bunch of challenges. I run 33 10.5 w 3300lbs with 13 to 14 lbs air. I was running 5 to 6 lbs years ago. The tire shake is brutal. Trying to get wheel speed on some tracks surface is rough an takes a lot of changes. Thanks for sharing guys be safe
Yeah, some tracks are tending to prep more for radial tires which is way too sticky for slicks to get any wheel speed.
Love watching Steve process new info. As always thanks for sharing.
To me it would be close to the same 8.5ish inches tall because the ID and OD of the tire are pretty well set. But the wider wheel is kinda “pulling” on the side wall already and will in turn create more strength by utilizing the tensile strength of the side wall. Very very cool. I’ve never even thought about any of this. Thanks for making my gears spin!!!! Love the channel.
Back in the day we used to use a wheel that was a few inches wider than the tire just to square off and flatten contact patch. I never gave much thought to the science of tire flex but at the same time, we weren’t running anywhere near the horsepower that you have.
Bless your heart Steve. Fresh off a wreck and you still want to go faster.
I love learning stuff about your hot rods. They are so sweet. I’m glad you got a huge budget to keep things moving forward. Very fast forward. Stay well !!!!
Steve this is all so interesting. Thanks for sharing all of this new knowledge. God Bless you and yours.
I think I got all that but...I also have a headache 😂😂😂
I can't wait to see how ti's works.
Another great Video.
Sending love from our family to yours.
Stay Blessed ❤
If you notice most of your faster no prep small tire run the wider bead locks on the 28/10.5 tire to me it makes the tire patch square and flatter to the track as the narrow wheel makes a arch in tire tread patch should have better contact to the surface
Tires are integral to going fast and being safe. Hope this solves your problems and helps you go faster. Just opened my new t-shirt of the world’s fastest steel bodied wagon. Keep up the great job.
I am old and years ago I bought the Direct Connection chassis books. They were big on reducing rotating weight as one of the secrets to going fast. Good Luck Steve and thanks for the great content .
The smile on your face says a thousand words. :) Just love your channel. The No.1 channel to go to every week. 😛🙃😛
We use this exact same method to adjust our stagger on our dirt race go karts. The wider wheels give us a smaller circumference with the same tire size.
Nice video, very educational. There is a fine line between under powering the tire and not shaking (which is what most of us do) and over powering the tire and spinning. You were running the old tire combination in between these two points and in the shake zone. You needed to add power the prevent the shake, but not so much power that you would spin.
Interesting, one thing to keep an eye on it sidewall getting wore out if it's stiffer. You may need to replace at more frequent intervals. Can't wait to see what difference you feel in the seat if any. I know circle track it made a huge difference in the 90s with those tires I'm kinda a drag racing noob so seeing these tech heavy episodes is really helpful for understanding the why
Our buddy Dewey had us rolling as usual. LOL On the wheel change--Adam D. shared this with us long ago and it was surprising that you didn't run a beadlock. Assumed you did and what you'll also notice with the new wheel is the car will want to break the tires loose down track as more boost is added so you may want to look at adding a wicker bill for downforce but the downside is a dead air zone so your chutes will need some help with blossoming. Cheers!
Hatchbacks are real bad with lift from the turbulence as well. Seen it pick the back end up on the big end in smaller lighter car and throw them into the wall. Always been surprised he runs with no wing
More sidewall stretch. Even at lower pressures, the sidewall will be more stiff on a wider rim.
Worked in the tire industry for a few years. We had Logghe Brothers back in early 70's. They were very popular in the NHRA chassis builds. We did there tire and wheels. Inflating my first slick was a definte learning lesson. The 2 ply side wall gave a high velocity pop enough to move the tire machine.
Thanks Steve you help bring understanding to the masses. Now we can watch and understand the how and why things happen.
With the wider rim it forces the side walls out to put more tension on the tire to prevent the tire hopping
with the sidewalls parallel the car will shift side to side , the wide wheel the side wall are angled opposite which is like adding 2 gussets to a frame it helps control the side to side
We won't tell Nasa you stole a rocket nozzle and turned it in to a wheel.
That looks more like a SpaceX Starship rocket nozzle! Lol
@@Hoaxer51I thought it was a fancy flower pot.
It looked like a bar stool to me! It might need to be a tad taller, maybe with an old SMX crank for a center support and pivot.
😂 fr!
@@CGT80 That would be pretty metal ngl
Centrifugal force makes the tire get “skinnier” and wrinkle more with the skinnier wheels. That same centrifugal force on the wider wheels is squaring off the sidewalk and contact patch .
“Orlando your wall is really flat - it’s amazing” 😂
Great content Steve. Extremely interesting. Can't wait to see the wagon back on track!!!
The wider wheel stiffens the sidewall by stretching it out wider. It keeps the slick from going into paddle as easy. It lets you keep the softer sidewall in a big tire but act more like a stiff wall and have less paddle and more stability down track
First time I've seen anybody do anything about about tires always informative.👍
You may want to check the roll out also, and stretch accordingly. I think that the wider rim tightens the side wall.
Pretty cool stuff here. Looking forward to see and here the results of the testing.
The shortest distance between two points is a straight line. when you put the tire on a wider wheel you are changing the relation of the edge of the tread contact and where the bead falls. 17" wide tire on a 17" wide wheel the bead should be directly straight down from the edge of the tread edge. 17" wide tire on a 20" wheel, from edge of tire to the bead is now at a slight angle making the overall tire shorter. I hope that all came out right... Keep up the awesome content Steve!!
Just loving the editing these days. From the little note about Dewey always chewing stuff to the celebration when Steve got the tire on the rim
Great explanation and demonstration with videos mixed in. Thanks Steve.
For a person that doesn’t have a race car I sure am soaking up some knowledge that I will probably never use😂. Every video you do is VERY interesting! Thank you Steve!
Even though the tires are the same size the new wheels sure do change the whole dynamic of the tire. It’s like Jedi mind tricks on the brain😂
Easily solved by trading your financial stability for a race car. Don't ask your wife.
Hello Steve, the considerably new wider rim (+4") with the same size tyre is effectively making both sidewall profiles into a triangle shape, unlike your previous wheel/tyre combo which is more oblong in shape....obviously the triangle shape by stretching the sidewalls out is far stronger & superior to deflection which will be better at limiting your tyre shake scenario...
Smaller overall rolling circumference is going to gear everything down so a taller first gear is probably a must...really interested to see you testing this set-up👍🇬🇧.
The sidewall is relaxed with the old rim. The wider wheel puts torsion on the sidewall so it’s stiffer. Can’t wait to see the difference. Please make sure to do a follow up. 🍻
At 17:15 of the video notice the amount of bounce the 17" wheel Goodyear tire produced when struck by the heal of Steves hand. A similar strike on the 20" Hoosier combo appeared to produce far less bounce. Maybe indicitive of each combinations liklihood to shake. Great Video.
Steve I really appreciate the way you are leaping to a (informed) conclusion based on early data. I typically do the same thing while early diagnosing a problem. Sometimes I’m right, sometimes I’m wrong. But, like you, I learn from my mistakes and apply the knowledge downstream.
The explosions, bald eagle and jet made my drink come out my nose... Keep it up, good stuff.
😂😂
@@stevemorrisracinghi
Thanks for talking about what no one else is talking about, I've already can't remember everything you said so I'm going to have to rewatch after I'm finished
Steve's brain gears were almost smoking! Great info!
It’s so cool watching those gears turn in Steve’s head. 💪
Great tech talk sir. Glad to see you're making the change. Honestly big cheif from street outlaws touched on this very thing about a year ago when he was building a small tire car. Small tire guys claim they can use the sidewalls as a traction advantage. Dont hold me to it but I think the cleeter crew runs stretched sidewalls
I think it will help too by when the wheel spins and the centrifugal force tries to throw the tire off (increases circumference) it will reduce the sidewall narrowing and getting sucked inwards towards the center of the wheel. All over better control.of that rotating mass, awesome video 👍👍👍👍
Awesome tech, and congrats to all the art winners !😊
Awsome content as usual. I have been watching and listening to guys who have had your products and your vids for yrs and yrs . I will have to say there is not many humble professionals with your knowledge I will say I can listen to because of their ego's. You are a icon ( ment as a compliment) who I could listen to all day like Clay Millican. Thank you for the informational videos!
This is a great teaching lesson when you can show the results of what can go wrong.
Have you ever played with a tire dyno and take an in depth look at tire load to rate of deflection you can learn even more. It aids in syncing your shocks and spring loads to match the tires even further and help to tune the suspension in that much further. Which in turn will all you to continue to yield better results while pushing the car further. In a world where data is everything knowing how much load your tires can take before deflection would be huge for you.
A tire dyno?
@slowpoke96Z28 yes calculates out load rates on the tire before tire deflection allows you to dial the springs shocks in to achieve maximum tire scotch.
This was very interesting. Back in the late 90’s I was helping with a IHRA Outlaw Street car. The only thing available was bead lock. I have heard of the liner style setup but didn’t know anything about them. It’s funny how some technology seems to go back and forth.
You should do a side by side slow mo comparison between the tire to prove your point to the viewers!!! Thank you for all you do
The biggest change is going with a wider wheel than the tire rather than the smaller wheel than the tire. Using a wheel that is wider than the tire will for sure change the overall diameter at high rpm and control that growth of the tire diameter. I am surprised you did not have rubbing issues with that old tire inside that body somewhere. And that will be your new issue to monitor closely in that you will have to watch out for wheel well clearance with any sway what so ever. Looking good though. Glad to see you got those tire engineers on your side helping. So many HP guys forget all the other parts that go into total performance. Horse power gives you a higher top end performance POTENTIAL but traction is a lot of the game getting to that top end range to use that potential gain.
I wonder how often people blame tire manufacturers for their own bad setups. Great video, Steve! I learned a lot.
Hi Steve , I am sure that you will like the beadlock and the extra wide rim . Your thoughts on the wide rim controlling the tire shake is 100 % correct! Use it in our motorcycle powered dragster with a T/F motor at 1800 hp
That’s an insane amount of power for a motorcycle! Wholly cow!
nice new wheels Steve. I used to keep an old square of carpet to do all my tyre changing on, used to stop any scuff marks nicely
The internal inflatable liner / beadlock locks both the inner and outer bead. Whilst the inner bead is less likely to come off, with those wide wheels with just the outer bead locked, the risk increases. Love the super slow mo footage!
Thanks for another great video. Never knew there was that much science behind wheel and tire choice.
Two things that might make it easier to understand.
a/ the tyre is a spring - both an air spring with the air pressure affecting its spring rate, and the sidewall wrap under load. The both deform undr load and when the load is released they try to return to their natural state. Changing air pressure, tyre construction, and wheel width will affect the way they respond, and the speed range where the affect is strongest.
b/ think of the tyre on the rim as an "an isosceles trapezium" (who said I'd never use this after school?), with the base the tread and the top the rim (the parallel sides).
Could not look away. Mind blown on the tire tech!! Great stuff 👏
Yeah, it looks like you were hitting a 6 inch curb over and over and I am so glad that you changed tires and are trying something different
Tire manufacturers can vary there size by 3% ,so if you have all three manufacturers same size,doesn't equal the same height and width .always measure the roll out so the car doesn't turn due to diameter difference.
You know, I kinda dig that song during the tire mount. Great content as always Steve.
Can't wait to see what the new tires do. Good luck Steve!
Godspeed Steve. 2024 the year of the Wagon. Take care.
I'm very interested to see if the new wider wheel will allow the tire to grow in diameter at higher speeds. I would think the new wider wheel wouldn't allow the tire to grow as much as with the narrower wheel. This is such an interesting topic! Also your video editing and audio overlay is Great!!!! Thanks Steve! I defiantly learned something on wheel power ratings and other things
Weve been doing this for years on race bikes. On round face tyres, it alters the cross section circumference, giving you a greater contact patch when leant over in the wet.
Good video Steve. I've seen alot of the small tire guys doing this because they are 1000 - 2000 hp on smalls. I would also think you can control wheel speed with this setup. You know everyone will be changing as soon as you are successful in testing.
love these insights Steve! I'm all ears whenever someone is nerding out on something their passionate about 🤙
If I were you, I would do a few passes with the current setup, but with the new tires. Just to see what it does before changing anything else. I understand you can do all the nessasary math and get a pretty good idea what it will do with the new wheels alone. But it is always nice to confirm your calculations so you know exactly what to change to get the results you want.
I noticed you touched on the growth of the tire at the end here, my mind went right to the initial deflection shock into the suspension. So I guess the only way I can think to put it your controlled sidewall theory seems spot on. But assuming the shock of the hit will feel the same down to 100 feet on the same pressure is you wishful thinking. when I do that wishful thinking of "I shouldn't have to mess with it" usually means I mess with it lol keep doing what you're doing Steve and cant wait to see the data you pull from the runs. I'm placing a bet it stands up sooner/firmer on the but dyno at the old pressure, the shock travel on the hit could need some fiddling over pressures if it hooks and then don't. Love the shop pup!!!! I've got a brindle but he just hunts for mice instead of supervise like yours. PS don't forget to floor it
Thank you for your knowledge
Great channel Steve.
Always something interesting to watch . Godspeed to you and yours.
Vids are still coming out great. Nice work Steve and team.
That's the ticket beadlocked, lighter, wider rim pulling the tread down to a shorter height changing the effective gear ratio to a higher numerical number lower gear is going to even take your number higher when you wrinkle it also so your really going to come out of the hole and cut a good light super fast then getting out and rolling the tire will start to stand up a little more and firm getting rid of tire shake out further as you go out and that 20 " wheel keeping your tread in the center instead Of walking left and walking right like it did on your old narrow rim so much more control going to make you grin from ear to ear. Oh you'll be happy bro ! I am glad seeing you do this. I see so many more advantages !
😁 every fuse you fix brings out the next one!