My humble advice is to read the science behind and avoid quick thoughts or criticism regarding CLA, Ecological Dynamics, or Nonlinear Pedagogy. People in a position of authority should be more careful regarding the huge influence they make with misconceptions or lack of understanding. This is one of the reasons our sport is so amateur, generally speaking.
We used to train the old way, learn and drill techniques, and try to hit them in rolls. We switched to the eco method about 2 years ago, and what I noticed is that drilling never made a technique work, no matter the number of times that I drilled it. The other end of it is that while training in the eco method, I don't really know what to try unless I have a knowledge of something that works to try. The eco method of training made me really good at hitting the things I learned during the drilling years. What I can without hesitation say is that new people get better much quicker under the eco method. They get really good at figuring out what I'm doing and stopping it.
Not true, well partially not true. It is a way of teaching Jiu Jitsu. They don't say, put your foot here and grab there, but the move that comes out at the end is the exact same.
@@chrisadmaley We only use the CLA in our beginners class and miraculously, they learn how to grapple in a relatively short amount of time and can even prove themselves at tournaments. It always amazes me how people can make such statements without having used this method (the CLA) over a longer period of time(!) with new students.
I have always taught my classes largely like the CLA suggests. I don’t give a ton of info and get them into mini games quickly with specific broad objectives. I think the ultimate like most things is finding the right balance it shouldn’t be one or the other but a useful mix.
Excellent video outlining the point that adapting your training to whatever you need to improve is the optimal way to train. This is the point I eventually arrived at, realizing there is no one method I should use, and simply calling it adaptive training, that utilizes all of the training tools.
I remember you talking about this at a seminar about 4 years ago at my school. Shortly after that, I took over teaching the 6am class and basically didn’t have any formal instruction from that point on. This methodology is what I credit getting me to black belt. I would also emphasize having a dialogue with your training partner, especially when you are stuck. Ask them what is going through their mind at the points you are stuck. Ask them what they are trying to achieve or prevent. Like in low resistance drilling, ask them how they feel through a series of small adjustments. Just wanted to emphasize that part. It was super helpful for me.
Yeah this mode of conversational specific works is so effective. The ultimate goal is to develop understanding of positions. So you want to use all tools in your arsenal to accomplish that!
I am 2,5 months into BJJ and started with 1 month of drilling and then 1,5 month open mat sparring. Sparring is key for me to understand fundamentals and surviving, but I do find myself in a ton of positions where I know there are great opportunities, but I don't know the techniques to capitalize. Really looking forward to attending the beginners class that starts soon to learn more techniques and offense.
Yes! This is what I've been trying to tell these BJJ Eco zealots that eco training is just another way to improve and not the "be all, end all" of training. I mix it up a lot but what I find helpful is after a couple "Eco rounds" I bring all my students back and ask, did anyone have a specific issue/ scenario in the rounds that they had major problems with. That gets people to reflect more, and we drill specific solutions with increasing resistance.
Yeah 100 percent any form of only do this type of training is limited. I think a lot of this is semantics as well. What I always referred to as specific training is just making your own specific rules for a position or situation to explore around it and learn. Mix all methods together
@JonThomasBJJ absolutely! I find the semantics of it all is where people get confused since many people have different definitions for the same thing and vice versa, and people don't take that 10,000 ft view.
Thanks! Videos like these are really great because personally I have no idea why I do Jiu JItsu. It is even harder communicating to gym mates about how to do Jiu Jitsu. A room full of sweaty guys trying to choke you out doesnt allow for deep thought and understanding lol (For me anyways). A couple months ago I had a rough patch and I followed the advice from your video "Advice I wish I had as a white belt" at 5:28 you talk about finding partners outside of class. So I took a break from BJJ reanalyzed everything and as luck would have it. My personal friends chose to join me with Jiu Jitsu. It gave me time to really ask "Why do I even do Jiu Jitsu?" I figured it out and personally Jiu Jitsu is just Fun and Healthy so there is no benefit pushing myself into Physical or Mental overload. In my new free time I finally started working on my channel and things couldn't be better. Its been awhile but im actually excited for Jitsu again! My Jiu Jitsu isnt technically correct but its better than Alcohol and Drugs etc .... Keep making your inspirational techniques and stories they are the best and I look forward to many more! You can see in the comments how many people really appreciate what you do 🙏 The comment section in the video "Advice I wish I had as a white belt" is really inspiring. Jiu Jitsu is really challenging both Mentally and Physically. The comment section on that video is extremely positive and uplifting. Its the Bomb 💣 This 3 year old video at 5:48 is very similar to this video at 9:28. Make friends, have fun and enjoy an amazing day 😀
Wow! Thank you so much for this comment! I’m so happy to hear how much the video impacted you and help you take a good direction in your training and mindset. I think sometimes doing videos all the time you get detached from the real world effect the videos have, and I am so happy it made that kind of difference for you and this motivates me a lot to keep going. Thank you so much for the support and contribution as well. I will do my best to keep upping the quality and making more content. Hold you have a great summer and good luck with all your training
Best comment ever, I have had people tell me I’m missing something on this but I just feel like they are. I’m 100 percent in support of constraints led approach I just think you can mix in to your training other type of tools. I don’t think resitanceless drilling is completely worthless ( I thought so most of my career but you have to have nuance )
Eco is about human behavior and learning. You do eco, without knowing anything about Ecology. What this approach describes is the relationship of the task, individual and environment and how those parameters help aid in retention... because are you really learning without retaining anything? The constraint led approach helps you focus your attention (what you see) and intention (what you do) and more importantly it keeps them coupled.
I resonate with the idea that “aha moments” accelerate your game the most. CLA is great at understanding concepts and movement patterns and developing intuition - I use it often in my classes. But there have been so many times where I see a technique and I think “wow, it didn’t even occur to me that was a thing I could try to do,” and then I start successfully incorporating it into my game. To design a game that leads to a major “aha moment” once you’re pretty experienced, the constraints have to be so specific you’re basically just showing a technique. Imagine designing a game with the intent for a berimbolo to emerge. How could you possibly explain that game? You just have to say things like “knock them on their butt while keep your shoulders on the ground and your butt in the air, and also connect your chest to their back.” Like, that’s just explaining the technique at that point, hardly a constraint led game.
Oh, it's definitly possible to get these moments even as a black belt by manipulating the task or environment in such a way that the existing behaviour is irritated and therefore new movement solutions have to be found. In some cases it is just enough to say "hold him down without touching his head" or "take is back without connecting your own hands". And why do you WANT your students to do berimbolos? Why should they do it and which function does a berimbolo fulfil? You have a very specific movement pattern in mind when you think of berimbolo. But it's actualy just a way to use leverage with your legs to get access to the back. And it isn't that difficult to discover that function in the right set-up (and that is what CLA is all about). Even in our beginners class, crab rides emerged when the right constraints where given.
The fundamental difference between ECO/CLA vs positional drilling is that ECO is an active learning process whereas specific sparring is an application of what you have learned
I think it’s somewhat semantics. All of my specific training or at least what I refer to as specific training has been on positioning I don’t know trying to discover new ideas by playing in the position regardless if you call it specific training or ecological it’s the same concept I set parameters around my specific training and define my wins and losses based up different rules I set to help me evolve my learning. Either way in the end that model of learning is extremely useful.
@@JonThomasBJJfilm some of the games you play. Claiming it is semantics may be accurate. Or maybe not. Would need to see what you do, not hear you talk about what you do.
@@JonThomasBJJ I don't roll after roll after lessons, my body just aged faster than everyone else. At 46 I already have arthritis in my right foot and left arm. I trying to learn the old man BJJ. I hurt my wrist working two on one drills today. That's just life no worries. My training partner knows I'm older and takes it slow.
Ummm I don't think the eco you refer is what eco really is... I'm not an eco guy but I study it quite a while and there are much misunderstanding by the general public 😊 although I personally agree to use each method to an extent. Banger vid none the less
Hey prof. Jhon, In my opinion we need to combine all as you said, drilling, drilling with resistance, positional sparring and specific sparring. Drilling is important especially if I do not know the technique and its movement mechanics yet, drilling without resistance would be in my opinion beneficial here. I also think Prof. Jhon Danaher described this well too, comparing it to weights, you cannot bench 200 lbs straight away but we can start with lower weights till we later reach 200 lbs after a certain time, step by step slowly incresing the weights each time, same with an unfamiliar technique, we start drilling with no resistance, then with resistance and then with resistance and other threats too, slowly increasing the stress step by step similar to weights.
I've been doing martial arts on and off 30 years. Karate,BJJ,Boxing,Kali,Aikido, Judo, I've done a bit of everything. Drilling is extremely important, especially in the beginning when learning the basics. You have to condition your body for those movements and get fundamentals into muscle memory. It's only after those basics have been mastered that the ability to freestyle can happen effectively. Modern day example Deontay Wilder, heavy weight champ very powerful man. But when he is tested his poor fundamentals leave him unable to defend himself. You have to drill until you are sick of drilling and then drill some more.
No, that's not true. Or fundamentals class is completly free of drilling prescriptive moves and they are learning the "basics" or "fundamentals" of our sport much faster than previous cohorts. Because fundamentals are not "armbar from guard", "knee/elbow escape" or "hip bump sweep" but rather holding someone down, stand up, fight for dominant grips or inside position etc. and those are not bound to specific moves that can or should be drilled.
I think this is an excellent way to learn quick, I just also think that mixing in different types of training is optimal. To a man with a hammer every problem looks like a nail. You need different tools to develop different things. Probably 70 to 80 percent or my training is as you described but I also mix in other types as well for certain issues.
@@JonThomasBJJ The reason why I have a problem with the "mixing" argument is that both coaching styles contradict each other. Of course, you can play your games (which is only the visible surface of the CLA) and mix it with some drilling of prescriptive moves. But than it has nothing to do with CLA . Which is also fine but one cannot say "I have always done CLA". And I think that is the reason why the discussions are so heated - it is the incomplete understanding of EcoD/CLA. Alex Samar explains it much better than me: ruclips.net/user/clipUgkxhtFqM93nrGnNc9gWLdtolxmMvXe02xYG?si=7-xrOf6c5Qad0vHY
@@RogerRabbit123 cla and eco are not the same thing, at least not what Greg claims in his videos, he says he doesnt show any moves he gives them specific goals. Me and every coach i have trained with since i started in 2003 have used a form of CLA. Most places call it postitional or situational sparring or drills, for example we start bottom guy in mount and he has to escape and top guy hold position or submit. The difference is if i have a brand new person i at least sow them a kipping and knee elbow escape have them practice the motion 5 to 10 times before doing positional round. Telling them to escape without showing good habits is just practicing bad habits and creates a sink or swim enviroment.
ruclips.net/video/_msAd21YRRA/видео.html&ab_channel=KitDale yeah buddy putting a brand new studen to play a game is comical compared to showing a specific technique.
@@timothycarey3883 EcoD is the theoretical Model behind the CLA. You can't use the EcoD in Xlass because its not a method, and you can't use the CLA without applying EcoD principles. period. And yeah, you still have no idea about the CLA because not giving them movement solutions and Exploration and self-organization ARE the key principles of the CLA! if you Show them a solution first you have internal focus of attention =/= CLA. playing Games is just the surface of the CLA. just because you use specific sparring its not automatical the CLA!
My humble advice is to read the science behind and avoid quick thoughts or criticism regarding CLA, Ecological Dynamics, or Nonlinear Pedagogy. People in a position of authority should be more careful regarding the huge influence they make with misconceptions or lack of understanding. This is one of the reasons our sport is so amateur, generally speaking.
We used to train the old way, learn and drill techniques, and try to hit them in rolls. We switched to the eco method about 2 years ago, and what I noticed is that drilling never made a technique work, no matter the number of times that I drilled it. The other end of it is that while training in the eco method, I don't really know what to try unless I have a knowledge of something that works to try. The eco method of training made me really good at hitting the things I learned during the drilling years.
What I can without hesitation say is that new people get better much quicker under the eco method. They get really good at figuring out what I'm doing and stopping it.
eco only works that well for people that already know jiu jitsu
Not true, well partially not true. It is a way of teaching Jiu Jitsu. They don't say, put your foot here and grab there, but the move that comes out at the end is the exact same.
@@chrisadmaley We only use the CLA in our beginners class and miraculously, they learn how to grapple in a relatively short amount of time and can even prove themselves at tournaments. It always amazes me how people can make such statements without having used this method (the CLA) over a longer period of time(!) with new students.
I have always taught my classes largely like the CLA suggests. I don’t give a ton of info and get them into mini games quickly with specific broad objectives. I think the ultimate like most things is finding the right balance it shouldn’t be one or the other but a useful mix.
Excellent video outlining the point that adapting your training to whatever you need to improve is the optimal way to train. This is the point I eventually arrived at, realizing there is no one method I should use, and simply calling it adaptive training, that utilizes all of the training tools.
Fantastic points and explanations here! Very clear and understandable!
Valid points, good job Jon,! Hope you're doing well !
Great video sir. Thank you so much for this!
No problem happy to weigh in
looking forward for the sweep and pass video 🙂
I remember you talking about this at a seminar about 4 years ago at my school. Shortly after that, I took over teaching the 6am class and basically didn’t have any formal instruction from that point on. This methodology is what I credit getting me to black belt. I would also emphasize having a dialogue with your training partner, especially when you are stuck. Ask them what is going through their mind at the points you are stuck. Ask them what they are trying to achieve or prevent. Like in low resistance drilling, ask them how they feel through a series of small adjustments. Just wanted to emphasize that part. It was super helpful for me.
Yeah this mode of conversational specific works is so effective. The ultimate goal is to develop understanding of positions. So you want to use all tools in your arsenal to accomplish that!
I am 2,5 months into BJJ and started with 1 month of drilling and then 1,5 month open mat sparring. Sparring is key for me to understand fundamentals and surviving, but I do find myself in a ton of positions where I know there are great opportunities, but I don't know the techniques to capitalize. Really looking forward to attending the beginners class that starts soon to learn more techniques and offense.
Yes! This is what I've been trying to tell these BJJ Eco zealots that eco training is just another way to improve and not the "be all, end all" of training. I mix it up a lot but what I find helpful is after a couple "Eco rounds" I bring all my students back and ask, did anyone have a specific issue/ scenario in the rounds that they had major problems with. That gets people to reflect more, and we drill specific solutions with increasing resistance.
Yeah 100 percent any form of only do this type of training is limited. I think a lot of this is semantics as well. What I always referred to as specific training is just making your own specific rules for a position or situation to explore around it and learn. Mix all methods together
@JonThomasBJJ absolutely! I find the semantics of it all is where people get confused since many people have different definitions for the same thing and vice versa, and people don't take that 10,000 ft view.
@@JonThomasBJJ exactly, you have to find the right balance of training methods its like training with light weights or heavy weights when lifting,
Thank you, i agree
Thanks! Videos like these are really great because personally I have no idea why I do Jiu JItsu. It is even harder communicating to gym mates about how to do Jiu Jitsu. A room full of sweaty guys trying to choke you out doesnt allow for deep thought and understanding lol (For me anyways). A couple months ago I had a rough patch and I followed the advice from your video "Advice I wish I had as a white belt" at 5:28 you talk about finding partners outside of class. So I took a break from BJJ reanalyzed everything and as luck would have it. My personal friends chose to join me with Jiu Jitsu. It gave me time to really ask "Why do I even do Jiu Jitsu?" I figured it out and personally Jiu Jitsu is just Fun and Healthy so there is no benefit pushing myself into Physical or Mental overload. In my new free time I finally started working on my channel and things couldn't be better. Its been awhile but im actually excited for Jitsu again! My Jiu Jitsu isnt technically correct but its better than Alcohol and Drugs etc .... Keep making your inspirational techniques and stories they are the best and I look forward to many more! You can see in the comments how many people really appreciate what you do 🙏
The comment section in the video "Advice I wish I had as a white belt" is really inspiring. Jiu Jitsu is really challenging both Mentally and Physically. The comment section on that video is extremely positive and uplifting. Its the Bomb 💣
This 3 year old video at 5:48 is very similar to this video at 9:28. Make friends, have fun and enjoy an amazing day 😀
Wow! Thank you so much for this comment! I’m so happy to hear how much the video impacted you and help you take a good direction in your training and mindset. I think sometimes doing videos all the time you get detached from the real world effect the videos have, and I am so happy it made that kind of difference for you and this motivates me a lot to keep going. Thank you so much for the support and contribution as well. I will do my best to keep upping the quality and making more content. Hold you have a great summer and good luck with all your training
@JonThomasBJJ Your very welcome you have more than earned it. I will keep growing and you keep growing 2 😃
How dare you have a fair and even-handed take on this.
Best comment ever, I have had people tell me I’m missing something on this but I just feel like they are. I’m 100 percent in support of constraints led approach I just think you can mix in to your training other type of tools. I don’t think resitanceless drilling is completely worthless ( I thought so most of my career but you have to have nuance )
I unsubscribed because he didn’t create a false dichotomy and then pick one side. I am not here for a nuanced take! 😂
Eco is about human behavior and learning. You do eco, without knowing anything about Ecology.
What this approach describes is the relationship of the task, individual and environment and how those parameters help aid in retention... because are you really learning without retaining anything? The constraint led approach helps you focus your attention (what you see) and intention (what you do) and more importantly it keeps them coupled.
I resonate with the idea that “aha moments” accelerate your game the most. CLA is great at understanding concepts and movement patterns and developing intuition - I use it often in my classes. But there have been so many times where I see a technique and I think “wow, it didn’t even occur to me that was a thing I could try to do,” and then I start successfully incorporating it into my game.
To design a game that leads to a major “aha moment” once you’re pretty experienced, the constraints have to be so specific you’re basically just showing a technique. Imagine designing a game with the intent for a berimbolo to emerge. How could you possibly explain that game? You just have to say things like “knock them on their butt while keep your shoulders on the ground and your butt in the air, and also connect your chest to their back.” Like, that’s just explaining the technique at that point, hardly a constraint led game.
Oh, it's definitly possible to get these moments even as a black belt by manipulating the task or environment in such a way that the existing behaviour is irritated and therefore new movement solutions have to be found. In some cases it is just enough to say "hold him down without touching his head" or "take is back without connecting your own hands". And why do you WANT your students to do berimbolos? Why should they do it and which function does a berimbolo fulfil? You have a very specific movement pattern in mind when you think of berimbolo. But it's actualy just a way to use leverage with your legs to get access to the back. And it isn't that difficult to discover that function in the right set-up (and that is what CLA is all about). Even in our beginners class, crab rides emerged when the right constraints where given.
The fundamental difference between ECO/CLA vs positional drilling is that ECO is an active learning process whereas specific sparring is an application of what you have learned
I think it’s somewhat semantics. All of my specific training or at least what I refer to as specific training has been on positioning I don’t know trying to discover new ideas by playing in the position regardless if you call it specific training or ecological it’s the same concept I set parameters around my specific training and define my wins and losses based up different rules I set to help me evolve my learning. Either way in the end that model of learning is extremely useful.
@@JonThomasBJJfilm some of the games you play. Claiming it is semantics may be accurate. Or maybe not. Would need to see what you do, not hear you talk about what you do.
@@JonThomasBJJ they can look the same and I used to carry the same opinion - however the purpose is different
Drilling is great. The key is to then be committed to using what you've drilled in sparring - even when it fails.
You cannot force a position
@@flyffreak93 Yes and no. If I want to work my guard passing, I'll ask my partner to play guard and work from there.
I keep getting hurt every time I drill. Its because I'm 46 and my body is broken
If you want to roll when you're 75, start rolling like you're 75 right now... I'm 54.
What you doing wrong? I'm 50, been training for 3 years with virtually no injuries(my biggest was a dislocated pinky). I drill and roll all week.
My first month I broke two toes, had a nasty hamstring pull, high ankle sprain and dislocated shoulder. Most during drills not open mat.
You shouldn’t be getting hurt during drilling, that should be relatively light and easy it sounds like you are sparring more?
@@JonThomasBJJ I don't roll after roll after lessons, my body just aged faster than everyone else. At 46 I already have arthritis in my right foot and left arm. I trying to learn the old man BJJ. I hurt my wrist working two on one drills today. That's just life no worries. My training partner knows I'm older and takes it slow.
Ummm I don't think the eco you refer is what eco really is... I'm not an eco guy but I study it quite a while and there are much misunderstanding by the general public 😊 although I personally agree to use each method to an extent. Banger vid none the less
He's one of the smartest RUclips coaches, everything he says is so true and tested.
Thanks so much I appreciate it buddy!
Not one tool makes the tool shed.
It depends on skill level and what technique....
I agree it’s case dependent on what I want to develop in how I train.
Hey prof. Jhon,
In my opinion we need to combine all as you said, drilling, drilling with resistance, positional sparring and specific sparring.
Drilling is important especially if I do not know the technique and its movement mechanics yet, drilling without resistance would be in my opinion beneficial here.
I also think Prof. Jhon Danaher described this well too, comparing it to weights, you cannot bench 200 lbs straight away but we can start with lower weights till we later reach 200 lbs after a certain time, step by step slowly incresing the weights each time, same with an unfamiliar technique, we start drilling with no resistance, then with resistance and then with resistance and other threats too, slowly increasing the stress step by step similar to weights.
Common sense prevails!!
I've been doing martial arts on and off 30 years. Karate,BJJ,Boxing,Kali,Aikido,
Judo, I've done a bit of everything. Drilling is extremely important, especially in the beginning when learning the basics. You have to condition your body for those movements and get fundamentals into muscle memory. It's only after those basics have been mastered that the ability to freestyle can happen effectively. Modern day example Deontay Wilder, heavy weight champ very powerful man. But when he is tested his poor fundamentals leave him unable to defend himself. You have to drill until you are sick of drilling and then drill some more.
No, that's not true. Or fundamentals class is completly free of drilling prescriptive moves and they are learning the "basics" or "fundamentals" of our sport much faster than previous cohorts. Because fundamentals are not "armbar from guard", "knee/elbow escape" or "hip bump sweep" but rather holding someone down, stand up, fight for dominant grips or inside position etc. and those are not bound to specific moves that can or should be drilled.
I think this is an excellent way to learn quick, I just also think that mixing in different types of training is optimal. To a man with a hammer every problem looks like a nail. You need different tools to develop different things. Probably 70 to 80 percent or my training is as you described but I also mix in other types as well for certain issues.
@@JonThomasBJJ The reason why I have a problem with the "mixing" argument is that both coaching styles contradict each other. Of course, you can play your games (which is only the visible surface of the CLA) and mix it with some drilling of prescriptive moves. But than it has nothing to do with CLA . Which is also fine but one cannot say "I have always done CLA". And I think that is the reason why the discussions are so heated - it is the incomplete understanding of EcoD/CLA.
Alex Samar explains it much better than me: ruclips.net/user/clipUgkxhtFqM93nrGnNc9gWLdtolxmMvXe02xYG?si=7-xrOf6c5Qad0vHY
First
first
You rock!
Eco is good for high level grapplers, but telling a brand new guy to pass the guard without showing any passes compared drilling passes is comical.
you definitely have no idea how to apply the CLA...
@@RogerRabbit123 cla and eco are not the same thing, at least not what Greg claims in his videos, he says he doesnt show any moves he gives them specific goals. Me and every coach i have trained with since i started in 2003 have used a form of CLA. Most places call it postitional or situational sparring or drills, for example we start bottom guy in mount and he has to escape and top guy hold position or submit. The difference is if i have a brand new person i at least sow them a kipping and knee elbow escape have them practice the motion 5 to 10 times before doing positional round. Telling them to escape without showing good habits is just practicing bad habits and creates a sink or swim enviroment.
ruclips.net/video/_msAd21YRRA/видео.html&ab_channel=KitDale
yeah buddy putting a brand new studen to play a game is comical compared to showing a specific technique.
@@timothycarey3883 EcoD is the theoretical Model behind the CLA. You can't use the EcoD in Xlass because its not a method, and you can't use the CLA without applying EcoD principles. period. And yeah, you still have no idea about the CLA because not giving them movement solutions and Exploration and self-organization ARE the key principles of the CLA! if you Show them a solution first you have internal focus of attention =/= CLA. playing Games is just the surface of the CLA. just because you use specific sparring its not automatical the CLA!
@@RogerRabbit123 long winded way of saying nothing.
Coach! I can't find your email. Where can I send some RUclips Shorts We edited for You?
second
the absolutely worst thing is dead rote drilling.
I have said that my whole career, but I think in certain specific scenarios it can be useful just most of the time it is not a good way to learn