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Loki: Are We Really Free?
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- Опубликовано: 18 авг 2024
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Loki: Can he ever be free?
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Loki may exist in a mindblowing multiverse, but he's unable to escape the boring, petty bureaucracy of the TVA. In this way, Loki is a classic Kafkaesque tragic hero. We'll explain in this Wisecrack Edition on Loki: Are We Really Free?
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00:00 - Intro
02:59 - Kafkaesque
08:10 - Free Will and Society
12:40 - Free Will and The Self
15:38 - Conclusion
Written by Logan Rees
Hosted by Michael Burns
Directed by Michael Luxemburg
Motion Graphics by Jackson Maher
Edited by Brian M Kim
Video Title Card by Amanda Murphy
Produced by Evan Yee
Music courtesy of Epidemic Sound
#loki #marvel #wisecrack
© 2021 Wisecrack / Omnia Media, Inc. / Enthusiast Gaming
What do you think we'll see in Season 2 of Loki?
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Loki uncovering the mysteries of the timelines.
More Lokis and their schemes and betrayals.
Loki destroying that statue in TVA.
Please do on troy
“If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen”.
~Samuel Adams
Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who comes near that precious jewel. Unfortunately, nothing
will preserve it but downright force. When you give up that force, you are ruined.
~ Patrick Henry
David Graeber love! Also, Sylvie's killing of Kang shows that simply removing one individual embedded in the bureaucratic structure, even the individual at the top, will not necessarily get rid the system in the place -- another will simply take over.
Often worst
Hence, terrorist organizations and hacker networks.
Not always
@@MrKabin12345 not always but most of the time people who is hungry for power will fight for it even if they bloodied their hands.
Even the language describes this; it is a system that she seeks to dismantle, but her methods only impact individuals and not the system itself.
I gotta say, it just hit me how many web-series, shows, and channels who change host tend to miss the mark. I thought without Jared I would slowly phase out of watching wisecrack, but Michael has bucked the trend and been an absolute stellar host.
I think its more about who writes the episode, and not about who reads the script. Nevertheless, i agree that Michael is doing good job being the host.
What happened to jared?
@@Unborn8436 he sold the company, he was a co- founder. I guess part of the deal was to step aside
@@Unborn8436
You can hear the story yourself here:
ruclips.net/video/71s2K-e595Y/видео.html
although i miss jared. i agree.
Kang’s last words, “see you soon” with a wink was just perfect.
How did I not see this myself? Loki through the Kafka lens: such a brilliant angle. Congrats.
I applaud this channel for introducing young minds to philosophy. And the Loki series is a great vehicle for doing so.
Don't know how old you are, but I'm in my early twenties and I agree that I've gotten more interested in philosophy thanks to this channel
When I watched loki for the first time and knowing about the whole disney china connection thing, it kinda weirded me out we have a series about absolute control and absolute freedom where absolute control is inevitable. Kinda, y'know.
Well even if Disney owns Marvel Studios, Marvel still is a separate entity. It's like a family where the parent is abusive manipulative parent with a decent child.
tolstoy predicted it like 150 years ago
Loki’s arc was just my existential crisis I had in my teens.
Lol fr
I like this 👏🏾
How did you grow out of it?
@@thompsonnoel it’s hard but my first milestone came from not only accepting that life was meaningless but being ok with it. We find our own meaning in life and although that’s almost more difficult we make it work.
As for lack of freedom? I tend to just have the mentality now that as long as I’m fulfilled and mostly enjoying my life who care?
This all Sounds silly but if you give it less power or think about these things less you tend to enjoy life more.
Hope this helps and you come out of this ok :)
@@kieronfarley1924 came to a similar conclusion - it is very possible to overthink to our own detriment
Both Lokis are doomed to fail because they both define themselves in relation to the bureaucracy. The only difference is how they choose to engage with it.
So how not to doom? How would one ignore the relation to bureaucracy to define oneself when this relationship defines who you have been being?
@@phonesjuda7318 who really truly are has no labels
@@phonesjuda7318 The only way to not fail is to accept the bureaucracy and obey. That was the message of this show. The Loki who accepted it and fled ended up finding freedom from his vices and developing real virtue, but he was punished with execution in the final episodes. You're supposed to walk away from this with the same understanding as Winston at the end of 1984: You LOVE the Bureaucracy.
@@phonesjuda7318 well, just like loki did, abandon your glorious purpose, this will sound cringe but, pursue love and god, thats the only way to escape bureaucrazy and get a bit of free will
@@Kivlor Loki didn't ended like Winston ended...
A group of Loki’s is a “scheme”.
Or a "scam"
I made a completely different read on the meaning of Loki, rather as a metacomentary on the MCU and what is it like to write fiction under a corporation and under the pressure and expectations of countless spectators. It was about the illusion of artistic freedom (represented by the multitude of Lokii) and the inevitable crystallization of the art piece (represented by the script in the office of the One Who Remains), up to the point where the artist doesn't know what else to write, but to truly embrace chaos.
As for the question, it's all an illusion; the choice doesn't matter. Philosophers are obsessed with the free will debate, and I should know because I am one. This debate is at worst, all about ideologies and egos, at best, a symptom of our need to fit everything into a comfortable box that we can rationalize. Can we stop asking the question "are we free?" and instead start asking the question "how much are we free?".
The real irony is how Loki finally sees the irony of his own self. He tells everyone that they were made to be ruled and yet his own freedom is as much of an illusion as those he tried to rule over.
Love videos like this and nice to see other media looked at rather than just simping for Rick and Morty.
You are free when you help others finding their own freedom. - There is something better than chasing rainbows: realizing that you don’t need to catch a rainbow in order to be happy. I think that's the big lesson Loki learned here.
Yes. Also in a psychological way he finds out the truth of himself (being lonly, missing thor and that his actions are not leading him anywhere ..thats where he is physical .. at the end of the time where nothing can grow) He has just started to set the sails differently.
True freedom is damn near impossible and in some cases, unthinkable.
True freedom means absolutely no responsibilities. Imagine waking up one day and not having to pay bills, not having to go to work, and not having to worry about money.
Sounds cool, right? But apply that to our modern day setting: Within a few weeks, you'd be homeless, broke, and starving.
The simple fact that you are human means that you are aware of your own basic needs and are tasked with the responsibility of fulfilling them.
Is to voluntarily take on a responsibility truly a constraint to freedom? In my opinion, that definition is completely unworldy. If we extend the logic every act is a restriction on freedom as it prevents you from acting in another way.
For example, cooking a meal prevents you from continuing to watch TV. You may not want to do it, but if you don't, you will eventually starve to death. So reality itself prevents you from the ultimate freedom of doing what you want, watching TV forever.
One week of true freedom, and Mad Max would ensue. Then you would be either dead, enslaved, or an oppressor.
If freedom is living in a state of zero responsibility, then being an infant is being free. This concept, which seems to be the modern conception of freedom, idealizes youth to a ridiculous degree.
What if Freedom is being free from vice, and having virtue?
That’s not necessarily true because you could argue that animals have true love free will
_"True freedom means absolutely no responsibilities. Imagine waking up one day and not having to pay bills, not having to go to work, and not having to worry about money."_
Ironic since "responsibility/obligation/duty" is a myth, it never exists outside the imagination. The same goes for "imperatives" (i.e. "have to") and "money". So you DO wake up every morning like that, you just choose not to think about it and instead engage in "the social contract" because it's easier.
_"The simple fact that you are human means that you are aware of your own basic needs and are tasked with the responsibility of fulfilling them."_
"Need/necessity" is yet another myth. The drowning man does not "need" air, he wants air to avoid becoming a corpse because he inherited instincts from his parents and then he becomes a corpse.
When Loki wanted to simply drop out and spent his life with her - i felt that.
Freedom appears to me like not so much a yes/no question as a spectrum. Sometimes you have more freedom, sometimes less, but it's always a range of choices you have within your limitations, whether those limitations come from other people or the needs of our bodies or even just the laws of physics. As the stoics say you have freedom to choose but there's always going to be one best choice that is most conducive to living in harmony with your circumstances and as such facilitates your thriving as an individual being and/or the thriving of society as a whole.
“The Trial”, “Metamorphosis” and “A Hunger Artist” are all in the public domain so you can read them for free.
I like how the main argument of the show Loki is that of every despot and tyrant's, that they are somehow the only thing keeping chaos at bay
Tyrants have alot of power so they can do anything and in order for that to keep happening they keep chaos at bay. Like troyley problem you know. Stop one to stop others.
tyrants always use that excuse to keep their power
Every despot might be a stretch. But some sure
@@guillermoelnino anyone who has power will do anything to keep being powerful. Nobody wants to be weak you know
that is definitely not the main argument. how about Loki taking a back seat to his own show? that's probably a bigger argument among fans.
If America and Australia have shown anything in the last year it’s that you only are free if you have lots of money and don’t try to rock the authority boat.
Or is it? :-)
just a fancy way of saying your free until you get caught
And if you keep following authority you'll keep losing your freedoms and be blamed for it under this endless war on a bs hyped up pandemic
The scumbags say to comply or you'll not get your freedoms.
Kafkaesque to the max
The severmonitor someone needs to read up on virology and pandemic response.
@@xXRickTrolledXx before 2020, asymptomatic transmission with respiratory viruses were proven false. Same with masks for Asymptomatic people. Addition: PCR tests have a high false positive rate and we never tested healthy people for sicknesses before... Kafka would be proud
And lockdowns increase deaths by inciting fear. Sweden was demonized for having a voluntary lockdown of the vulnerable and not everyone, and guess what? Overall they have done as well if not better than their neighbors.
So maybe YOU need to stop believing in the experts that have conflicts of interest and think for yourself based on the real data, not what pmsnbc, fauxnews etc tells you. That's the point of Kafkaesque societies, the think it's normal despite the bad results received.
Sylvie and Loki, are "lokis" but are far from the same person. Loki doesn't just fall in love with Sylvie, he learns to love in general. He admired his brother, his father, and his mother. The major character development was him learning to love. "Love is the death of duty" ... I didn't know that was George RR Martin. Still it works here. Props to George.
That last phrase of “do it because you want to, not because I told you to” really fucked with my mind
Lol for real tho x)
Ohh, what's really going to bake your noodle later on is, would you still have done it if he hadn't said anything
We got so meta and satirical that the only sensible thing to do is laugh at everything forever 🙃
Like how they explored the market capitalising on male wellness just a few days ago and then proceeds to promote that exact market behaviour with their sponsorship
Has it become meta now? DOOM
When you find a way to reach an audience and simultaneously break free of capitalism, let me know!
Society 😔
Everyone needs to eat
This has mad “Yet you participate in society, curious! I am very intelligent” meme vibes.
“If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen”.
~Samuel Adams
most of humanity: freedom? yuck!
@@guillermoelnino What made Adams' quote here so great is he did not tell those who love wealth more than liberty that they were his enemy, or that they should hurt themselves. He told them to go home in peace. Perhaps he held a bit of anger for such people, but his animosity clearly stopped short of hatred. He saved his hatred for those who deserved it.
It reminds me of that one scene in 300. Adams didn't want carpenters and shepherds; he wanted warriors.
@@scrotiemcb5858 i know what the what meant. its just that since 2020 I've been made aware of the overwhelming majority who have zero desire to be free and just want to be told what to do. its quite demoralising.
@@guillermoelnino Economic specialization makes only a tiny minority of the population competent at any one job, and the vast majority shit at it.
I don't know how you managed to avoid swallowing that pill for so long, but if you say you're choking on a blackpill right now, I guess I'll believe you. For me, it was so long ago I can't remember what it was like.
I think Loki is the safe and conservative choice. Sylvie on the otherhand is more radical and risky. Both have merits but i think its about what do u think is better, trying to fix a faulty system which you know will sacrifice more people in the process or take it all down and hopefully utter chaos will be better.
I would argue a bit of both approaches. Not all bureaucracy is useless or heartless; sometimes it helps to keep the machine in running order. And burning down the stuff you dislike should be done. This is why a lot of people should consider Pragmatism more often. What works, works. What doesn't work, gets axed.
I'm so glad you decided to tackle Loki I can't believe this is a superhero show I found it truly profound and interesting to me the best Marvel show by far
This show reminds me of The Good Place in its themes and sense of humor. Such a great show 😊
Aah, because both the shows have an out of time and space corporate system.
I always love different media portray some cosmic metaphorical bizarre locations in their own ways
Honestly one of my favorite Owen Wilson roles.
He played it fantastically. He has definately matured with age x)
Sure, do away with bureaucracy, dismantle the structures of society, revolt against the man (or “the machine”). Reap the benefits of your newfound freedom in a brave new world, characterized by its lawlessness and free will. To eventually
Set up new structures and processes to ensure productivity, efficiency, and long term survival of your new society… cyclically returning to…
Bureaucracy.
Gotta love the Soviet Union and their bureaucratic middle class, the middle class to end all middle classes.
that's the gag.
🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯😜🙃😜🙃😜🙃
Anarchy simply creates a power vacuum. Something else is bound to take it's place and chances are what comes along next will be even worse than before.
It's either order or chaos. Oppressive bureaucracy or nothing at all.
there's usually a pecking order even in chaos
This assumes that humanity has both fully explored all it's current options and wont continue to evolve. Turn your eye to speculations such as Star Trek, then realize even that is a stepping stone and one conceived many decades ago. One day humanity may learn intrinsic responsibility, good will, and above all the ability to truly understand and impart these things on others.
True peace and society wide enlightenment can be achieved once everyone can be trusted with not only a gun or a nuke, but the soul of another. Something not nearly as far off as it seems. For all it takes is society to become masterful teachers of what matters. In order to do that, we must simply pass through the phase of learning ourselves first. That's what we are doing here after all. The tools to learn (the internet) is very new, yet already we are exploring these things by the millions, where as before it was but a few dozen philosophers who's bickering has lasted through history.
It may sound grand but just as nearly all in the world have learned murder is wrong, so too will future evolutions in morality become just as ubiquitous.
Thank you for the literary analysis of "Loki" ... and free will. Its really enlightening : )
That last line on looking and subscribing only if you want to is brilliant 👏
Wise crack can turn milk spilling into a philosophical video
love, family, one's own vanity.
shelter, protection of one's self and things
This one was definitely a good one. I made this clan once on this game that i own. And i made a powerpoint and a whole group chat. I made events, I gave away prizes. I created new ideas on my journey of being a clan leader. And it was amazing in the beginning but the only problem was "rules". When I made the rules I made it in a way the only that the rules only apply is ranking up within the clan. Not something you have to in order to keep from getting kick out of the clan. Meaning you do not have to do what i create in the powerpoint in order to stay in the clan. The clan was full of life, organization, and was very fun. But it got to a point were people stop doing anything that involve the powerpoint. So it basically just turned into a chat room. Which is kinda hard for me to take in. I put in so much so much time into bringng more to the game then the game had to offer. But it all came and went. Now it's a chat. I don't people they have to do these things. only because it comes off as being a dictator. I don't recruit a lot of people because we have initiations in order to join and people are scared to try out. So the clan just continued without my input anymore. What I am trying to say is. In order for me to be happy with my creation, I had to accept that my creation was never under my control. It was just something I made that brought people together to have fun. Which I did. I went a full year of spreading my clan through the playstation community. I am grateful for how it came out. Do I speak out within the clan of inputs now. No I don't. But then again It's okay. i don't control the clan. They are what make it possible. So can i be mad about that. I no longer act as clan leader to the game. I am now just a player of the game. I decided that.
You answered your own end question by having an athletics greens sponsorship on a video titled "are we really free?".
Slartibartfast nailed it: "Perhaps I'm old and tired, but I think that the chances of finding out what's actually going on are so absurdly remote that the only thing to do is to say, "Hang the sense of it," and keep yourself busy. I'd much rather be happy than right any day."
I wish I could be that ignorant
Freedom is subjective. Some believe they have it, others think they don’t.
Bureaucracy acts as a form of insurance, helping to ensure things we, or at least those that set it up, want and prevent things that are unwanted, and is paid for with our time, energy, freedom, and whatever other resources get put into it. It's something that we do want some of in our lives but in the right amount and with the right intent and thoughtfulness.
You're asinine; and completely missed the point; even though it carefully laid before you. You don't understand anything.
@@JackSparrow-re4ql Why you so mad bro? Your mom take away your xbox?
@@EMAngel2718 It figures you're a child; probably think you're smart too. People like you end up working for organisations and governments that abuse human rights. You make the world hell for us all; because your simple minded.
Keep blindly following the rules; you'll see where this world ends up in twenty years time.
@@JackSparrow-re4ql See I responded to you the way I did because you responded to me having a take that wasn't the obvious, straightforward takeaway from the video by calling me asinine and essentially an idiot. Kind of ironic for you to call me a simple minded child that just follows the rules considering that, btw.
Frankly I owe you nothing, but I'll spell out the nuance of what I was saying anyway.
Yes, extreme bureaucracy is a terrible thing, but complete lack of it makes for an easy path for literal tyrants, among other things that can easily be missed by employing only moment-to-moment thinking. Today's world is on the extreme end and it should be scaled back, but complete removal of it is only going to put as back at square 1 in terms of human power structures.
Now if you had actually read and practiced reading comprehension on my second sentence you would have understood that I was calling for a balanced, non-extreme amount which is thoughtfully put together with the right intentions in mind.
You could have argued that such is unsustainable, which I would disagree with, but could respect as a validly crafted argument. You could have argued that there are other ways to accomplish the goal of insurance as I spoke of it which I would have been willing to listen to. You could have presented an counterargument that I haven't thought of.
You did none of those things. You called me asinine and stupid.
That is why I made fun of you and essentially called you a child.
You clearly have nothing to contribute to a conversation of this nature and I genuinely hope you don't subject anyone to any more of your thoughtless vitriol. I even hope that you learn to actually comprehend people's arguments, think through them, and put together actual counterarguments, but frankly if you simply ceased participating I'd be fine with that at this point.
What happens when we’re totally free? What’s the thing we’re reaching for and why? And are we really reaching for it?
There is no such thing as a total freedom, only differing freedoms. In order to assure that one freedom is protected, another freedom must be restrained. You can't have the freedom to say what you like without restraining the freedom of others to censor you. You can't have the freedom to private property without restraining the freedom to steal. These restraints require the credible threat of physical violence to enforce, and that means they require human time and effort to maintain. So, to recap, no total freedom, only a series of trading some freedoms for other freedoms, and having to pay someone else's salary to make even that happen.
freedom is an illusion. you reach for it when you don't have it, u are enslaved to the idea of having it. once you have it you have to defend it to keep, and u become enslaved to the defense of it. everybody is a slave to something. So if you have to be a slave to something, let that thing be something worthy and good.
free doom ie. freedom
Or maybe the universe is ultimately indifferent to our existence and whatever we reach for is whatever we choose. Along the way I can hopefully get to eat the next day.
seeming like a simulation
feed that algorithm, not because we want to but because we must.
Last time i was this early, jared was still with wisecrack
jared
"Two favorite Lokis." But you didn't mention Florida Loki at all.
Is that who you call Crocodile Loki (or Croki)? I liked Classic Loki the best.
I started watching the show, didn't get much from it, and stopped. I am going to pick it again after watching this video.
You didn't miss much. They scraped almost all they could from it into this video. A very ham-handed attempt at asking the question of free will, and a weird pseudo-critique of oppressive bureaucracy that is crafted to make its audience love bureaucracy and cry out for its defense.
a man can do whatever he wants, but he cant want what he wants, something like that is the phrase
Yeah right. You tell me: are we participating in our own destiny, making choices? Or are we just reacting to things that happen?
Well, it's both. The universe began a certain way and that led the only way it could to Adolf Hitler's birth and all the circumstances of his life and his death but all the choices he made were the choices he made. Everything we did yesterday happened the only way it could happen and today is happening the only way it can happen. The choices we have made and will make is our story.
8:05 "im not a bad girl, im just drawn that way" - jessica rabbit
wisecrack pls. You're selling snake oil now? How bout you test your products in an episode
This channels AD reads have always been pretty borderline but this one had me 🤬
@@vzacage yeah it sucks because I still take them kinda seriously, but it feels like there's some kind of narrative dissonance up in here
@@Karl_Marksman exactly, especially since Greg just shat all over the whole male wellness industry like a month ago.
Snake oil could be more benefitial to your nutrition than this green powder XD
I have not heard a satisfying definition of freedom yet. We are determined in many ways by the karma (causality and variation) that precedes us. Freedom is from my persective, a trap. It is a goal with no goal posts that we run to blindly, and in the process create havoc and war.
There's an Australian film called "The Castle" about a simple, Australian, man who fails to understand how he can be forced to sell the land his house is on through bureaucratic mechanisms and, through blind luck, manages to attract a pro bono QC and win a court case against the developers.
I never found out if that's an intentional reference to "Das Schloss". Makes sense though, and it actually kind of makes me like the movie (for whatever reason I can just barely tolerate Australian media, I imagine that we're like that as tourists too; barely tolerable).
I thought that Wandavision would be the weirdest thing Marvel ever did. And then Loki said hold my beer
You can only kill or remove the leader but not the system from which the public is used to.
glad to see the return of analysis to this channel
Great video as always Wisecrack. But I've got to say I'm a little disappointed with the sponsor choice. It's impossible for a consumer to adequately assess the potential truth to their claims for the efficacy of the Athletic Greens product because most of it is hidden behind proprietary complexes on the label. They do offer some ratios of some components but there is deliberate obfuscation of specific quantities. I understand the commercial interests behind why this is a common practice by supplement companies but it does not change the unethical and anti-free market qualities of the action. Don't claim this offer, stop supporting a business practice that allows supplement companies to sell you lies and rip you off.
This is a good one.
The video should have nodded to the show's influence by The Adjustment Bureau (film) / Adjustment Team (story) as well as Predestination (film) / All You Zombies (story).
It's good that Loki got to costar in a show named after him. It's refreshing how different Sylvie is from the Marvel mold. She escaped as a child by stomping on someone's foot and then developed so much in her character line.
I read Frank Kafka's "The Metamorphosis" as a teenager and I loved it.
We aren't free at all. And even less nowadays with all our life being watched by the "big brother".
Who else has been waiting for this wisecraxk episode.
1:38 that's sounds like unnecessary product at best and pseudocientific scam at worst, just eat vegetables dude
you shouldn't take extra vitamins unless a doctor tells to you based on a blood exam
@@funkysagancat3295 Nah you can take whatever vitamin you want. If u have surplus (ofc there is max) it will just end up in your pee. Ofc in Murica (fuck yeah) it is kinda different in that u could buy some deadly amounts of FDA unapproved shit.
I know, right? XD
@@patrikburda only water soluble supplements end in your pee, fat soluble ones will accumulate in your body
@@funkysagancat3295 There are like 4-6 of them (fat solutable vitamins).. Just don't take tens of thousands percent of DD. But my point stands. You can take reasonable amounts of vitamins a day without asking a doctor. The fact that u can overdose in Murica on anything because u don't have to ask anyone for permission to sold that shit is Muricas fault. I certainly won't pay absurd kind of money for blood tests every week so I can take vitamin suplements :D :D
This was such a great video omg
Now I want to see the series. Thanks for this.
You should. Its funny, adventurous and full of Lokis.
You've literally been spoiled the whole show now XD
@@maxmustermann2197 Ya, but I like the idea and now I want to see it.
Would love to see a comparison of Loki and Devs on their ideas on free will.
Devs could’ve ended a little better…actually I would’ve preferred 3 or four seasons
The fact of the matter is, bureaucracy will always exist in one form or another. It all depends on how oppressive it is. It tends to follow that it gets more oppressive over time, up until people can not take it anymore and push for the polar opposite.
Anybody else know that episode of the Young Indiana Jones Adventures where Indy has to navigate a bureaucracy to get a new phone installed so he can receive an important phone call? I liked that one.
I think it all hinges on matrix 4.
Everything does
Freedom is the illusion we all aspire towards, only to realize, much like a mirage, its location has shifted to the unreachable limits of our determinations.
Freedom is always a fantasy that people have to forget how little control they have over everything.
@@biswasbudhathoki8144 i think the relinquishment of the notion of freedom is freeing. At least you can see your chains and try to do something about it.
@@lokismischief2512 trying to do something about it in order to be free is the perfect illusion. It is a never ending process you know.
@@biswasbudhathoki8144 touche
I feel like as our society grows, it's inevitable. Just look at the healthcare system, we need so much documentation and paperwork done before anything proceeds, or that it happens simultaneously, one procedure cannot be without papers, and without papers, there cannot be a procedure. Of course, not all the time but 95% of the time. And I think this is due to evolving field, we knew what was wrong before and we try to fix it, or amend it, but unfortunately, the way to do so is through bureaucracy
Noooooo, wE NeEd to BRing DoWN CapiTAlISMS!!
Kafka is a great comparison.
Discussions like this always remind me of a great line from Boardwalk Empire: "All a dream to begin with. Ain't nobody ever been free." There's a ton of racial subtext there about which I'm not qualified to speak, but the basic idea has still resonated with me for years. Bureaucracy, though constraining, is just one of many social, biological and physical systems that control us. We never really have free will, but we're able to FEEL like we do because we can neither see nor fully understand the mechanisms underlying our own decision-making processes.
I'm not sure I can agree. We inherit instincts from our parents, grow up learning lessons from our environment and prioritize accordingly.
@@Mansplainer2099-jy8ps I'm not saying environmental factors aren't important, just that biology and chemistry are what cause us to react to those environmental factors the way we do. Learning requires electrical and chemical reactions in your brain to form new neural pathways and connections, and further reactions are necessary in order for that information to be accessed again. Exactly how efficiently and accurately all of this happens is determined by chemical, genetic and physical factors ranging all the way down to the behaviors of subatomic particles. Theoretically, with a thorough-enough understanding of those factors, accurate-enough measurements and a fast-enough computer, you could predict exactly what any person would choose to do in any situation.
@@Inscriptions37 _"I'm not saying environmental factors aren't important"_
"Importance" is a myth, it never exists outside the imagination.
_"just that biology and chemistry are what cause us to react to those environmental factors the way we do."_
What? That's possibly the silliest thing I've ever heard. We inherit instincts and we learn things from our environment (how things work, how other people work, what we think might make us happy etc.) and we prioritize accordingly. I myself for example am a 40 year old virgin, never even held another person's hand in the romantic sense, with no intention of leaving offspring, that is not purely biology and chemistry, that is mostly due to my personal lifetime interaction with my environment.
_"Learning requires electrical and chemical reactions in your brain to form new neural pathways and connections, and further reactions are necessary in order for that information to be accessed again."_
Not exactly, "requiring/needing" is another myth. "Requirement/need/necessity" never exists outside the imagination. As for the brain, sure, it's electrical and chemical but that's beside the point: You genetically inherit instincts from your parents (self-preservation etc.) and you learn as you go and you prioritize based on those two things (hang out at the saloon again or stock up for winter today? hit the gym or hit the library? break up with your girlfriend or try to work out the relationship problems? go for health food and daily exercise or live hard?).
_"Exactly how efficiently and accurately all of this happens is determined by chemical, genetic and physical factors ranging all the way down to the behaviors of subatomic particles."_
Efficiently and accurately to what exact end? Survival? Nobody lives forever so that can't be it. Be of use to your fellow humans? Babies don't just pop out of their mothers and start building you a better mousetrap so that can't be it either.
_"Theoretically, with a thorough-enough understanding of those factors, accurate-enough measurements and a fast-enough computer, you could predict exactly what any person would choose to do in any situation."_
Not really, those would only be simulations, informed guesswork, since a computer can't factor in itself.
I really hate how so many people think Kafka only talked about governments when he talked about all of modern society.
You guys ALWAYS seem to have the best take on all these things
The fact I watched Loki on mushrooms made it way trippier it all made sense 😭
Describing Kafka as czech felt wrong to me on all the levels, having studied his work as part of my uni courses studying german literature. It is true that he lived in Prague and that the country of his youth blew up after WW1, I think it still makes more sense to describe him with one of the following:
- "austrian" or "austro-hungarian" because his themes, ideas and context for his work stem from his life in the Austro-Hungarian empire. Where do you think all the bureaucracy came from if not the mastodont of that gigantic nonsensical multi-ethnic beast?
- "german speaking" because his literature is obviously part of german, not czech literature because that's the language he used.
- "bohemian" because he lived in the region of Bohemia, so it's geographically accurate regardless of the early-life empire or later-life nation he lived in.
It obviously depends what part of him you find important, but any of those terms would be more relevant when talking about the man or his literature. This is in no way an insult to the nation(s) of Czechoslovakia who's got lots of great thinkers and writers in its culture, but it just rings so wrong to me to have an author whose formative years were spent in the Austro-Hungarian empire and whose language was german described as czech...
Imagine getting RUclips premium and all the channels you are subscribed too, and still have adds that are announced by the host.
95% of all bureaucracy is designed to protect you from your neighbor or vice versa. The remaining 5% is designed to protect you from yourself. And if you think people don't need a nanny, have you looked around recently? The only reason why we can have ANY nice things, is because of bureaucracy.
Freedom is an illusion between those you have power and those who don't.
I will buy lifetime supply of athletic greens as soon as I see a video of someone chug their bottle.
All of this talk of bureaucracy, you guys should do an episode on Brazil 1985 or Ikiru!
The Prisoner is probably my favorite depiction of a Kafkaesque world
I, for one, welcome our new Loki overlords.
I feel like I'm the only person who sees all of the theological (particularly fundamentalist Christian) themes and parallels in Loki, especially the final episode. Am I alone here?
A show exploring Free Will inherently evokes Christianity because it is one of the core tenants (Unless you are Calvinist).
Literally doing paperwork on another computer while watching this
What would life be like without struggle? What would happen to humanity if all we had to do all day was anything we want? I think we would go crazy and invent struggle.
The wants of some will always be at odds with the wants of others, thus struggle is inevitable and a permanent state of man.
I smash that like button, because you told me, that I should do it, if I wanted to.
Bureaucracy is a great way at diluting fault to the point no one is responsible of the ills that seem to necessarily follow bureaucracy's creation. It is the leaderless tyranny that is policy: ever oppressive yet no one to blame.
We might not be bound by fear of violence, but of the things other than violence. Getting fired isn't getting disintegrated.
How is "Time" equal Multiverse?
Probably if different timelines had various incarnations of Loki then it's different timeline.
One where Loki was born a Girl, Gator & etc.
Multiverse is Wanda, Strange & Spiderman...
Why do people just confuse this?
ATHLETIC GREENS ARE PEOPLE!
In this marvelous Loki's tv-serie, we will still find what the big scheme of things are. It purposely ended there to let we go wild in speculating.
But in real life, the critique I saw that the series made was this: a lot of what we call "freedom" it really isn't. Just in our mind, more than 90% of our actions are already made in unconscious level. That's not really freedom. And if we really, really dig into ourselves asking "do I really want freedom?", the common answer will be "no", because as Sartre said (and I do not quote him because I don't remember the exact words), to be free means to make a choice, and to make a choice means that WE 100% are responsible by any consequences we receive. It is easier for us to say "the system is to blame for me not being able to..." or "I did that because he/she did (thing)...". And with that I definitely don't want to meant that meritocracy do exists, because it doesn't.
Even after the age of slavery may have ended, it still persists in a very, very, very subtle ways, and the sublest of all is the one that is inside of us: ourselves. The majority of what happens to us are our responsability, in other words, we ourselves paved the way for a lot of things that we live, and the minority of it is what I call misfortune (and I think Sartre too); things that simply happened to us and the only freedom we get is how we respond to it.
Just as death is always an option so is outright rebellion. Just as suicide is commonplace, so is revolution and terrorism throughout history. We are condemned to these fundamental choices or to seek the happy serenity of acquiescence to the relevant authority. This is freedom.
I subbed when this was called thug notes
We are as free as the parents we choose.
this makes total sense... if we think about how much bureaucracy protects corrupt politicians(keep them in their place NO MATTER WHAT).. we can see how this system is a bonafide prison.
Great take on the show
Reminds me of how bureaucracy is reflected in Hitchickers Guide To The Galaxy and the Watchowski's movie Jupiter Ascending
Is it bureaucracy that's the problem, or capitalism? I've grown to believe it's capitalism. We've drifted from thinking that compassion for each other, a sense of society that's important to thinking that the mad scramble for stuff is what we need.
The very fact that we are in limited bodies means we are not free. We are shackled with needs and desires. Even the desire to be desireless is a desire. So although no matter how many bureaucracies we overthrow, we will always have desires. The problems is this concept we have adopted. That we are entitled to pain free lives. That joy can exist without suffering. The we are inherently good and not inherently evil. Or even that these two concepts can exist without one another. In this physical universe we occupy, it's not possible. Freedom is only found within. A burdened family man and husband can be thrown in jail. Society considers him not free, while he is freed from his burdens. Death is the real freedom we all strive for.
The question of Free Will has never fascinated me, and I found myself rolling my eyes at the constant questioning of it in Loki. No one, even those who profess determinism really believes they don't have free will. It's a cope.
The question of the value of bureaucracy and the consequences of its destruction was far more interesting. Worth it or not? Now that was a question to address for a modern audience. What was most interesting was the social conditioning in the choice to depict the protagonist choosing to save it.
In the end, the dilemma was designed to sway you to think that the bureaucracy you live under is necessary, for you to side with protecting it at all costs. If it falls, all of civilization in the universe will burn in fire, so accept the Paper Panopticon not merely as necessary, but as your savior.
_"The question of the value of bureaucracy and the consequences of its destruction was far more interesting. Worth it or not?"_
Nothing is ever "worth" anything, "value" is a myth, figmentary, it never exists outside the imagination. So that's a trick question you're asking.
_"In the end, the dilemma was designed to sway you to think that the bureaucracy you live under is necessary, for you to side with protecting it at all costs. If it falls, all of civilization in the universe will burn in fire, so accept the Paper Panopticon not merely as necessary, but as your savior."_
No, it doesn't. It might turn out fighting Kang is the better world.
Would say the only way to defeat a corporate structure who soul ambition is predicting, surviving changes is to change it from the inside though it’s culture and direction however we can never predict how the corporate structure will shape and change those attempting to act upon it, which may be the greatest irony of Loki, he may though attempting change become changed beyond recognition
And this is ditto for anyone seeking to change their own company’s culture
This was a good one!
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