Paul not only do I love the information but your ability to explain a concept in simple terms that can apply to everyone is really helpful. Happy New Year and keep these audios coming
I love your videos.You and Mr Russ Andrews oh and Roy Kimber have taught me a lot on my quest to achieve better audio pleasure from my music and movies
Hi Paul, thank you for your videos as usual. I totally agree with your comments made in this video. There are exceptions to the rule like the JLTi upgraded OPPO BDP Blu Ray player that I have which I prefer the sound of. I still use external DAC’s on my other system for streaming from my computer.
My Denon CD player has a 32 bit Burr Brown DAC with proprietary algorithm interpolation that up-samples the information with 32 bit quality so that the signal closely resembles the original analog signal , it's best sounding unit I ever owned.
Same here , I’m still using my Denon 3520 CD player...and though I’ve used various out board DAC’s....over the years....I haven’t found one that is jaw droppingly better...it’s been over two decades and it’s still rocking!
Yes, my Denon CD player also sound awesome with the DAC inside of it. External DACs make much more sense on PCs where you can isolate the DAC from the noisy PC.
Denon was one of the better sounding all in one units. I still have a DCD-1560 which is a 40lb. (18kg) beast. Sony ES line were also very good. CD's started scraping, now it won't spin, sadly. The Denon has a motorized output volume control, so I used it in the bedroom hooked strait to an Adcom 535 mk II and a set of small ADS speakers.
@@zulumax1 It's funny how digital audio was already great with a 1980s Denon CD player and then in the early 2000s digital music became synonymous with over-compressed MP3 files and vinyl sort of got a second life. In part slow internet a couple of decades ago is to blame for how digital music became frowned upon, but nowadays that is also history with CD (or better) quality streaming. I have left vinyl behind and must admit I've gone all streaming. It's just incredibly awesome that you can pick a song among 60 million songs on Amazon HD Music (Tidal or whatever) and it plays flawlessly bit-perfect in less than a second. And maybe even more awesome is that you don't have to bother with playing a vinyl or CD with only one song you actually like. Building a playlist with your favorite music playing in FLAC 44.1kHz 16 bits or better is super easy. I used to collect a lot of vinyl discs and CDs, but they are now just collecting dust. Some of my discs have scratches that become audible. Streaming is just completely without errors. I also have a big collection of VHS tapes, DVDs and Blu-Ray movies that are in storage boxes. Streaming 4K video with 5.1 surround (or more) now works 100% without errors and has killed physical media providing better quality. The internet killed the physical media...reminds me of a vinyl single I have "Video killed the radio star" from ages ago.
@@ThinkingBetter Problem with streaming service is you have no control over the quality of the original file recording quality of the source file. 192 or MQA doen't heip it to sound any better than the source. I like having my own files on a physical device, not on the cloud. Most CD's made for the general public were compressed for the car and portable devices. Mainstream audio CD's have more limiting and compression than a vinyl record, when it was capable of much more. That is what killed CD's.not MP3. Loudness war, easier to do on digital. Of course there were exceptions like Flim & the BB's - Big Notes - Born to Love You. Probably the most dynamic range of any redbook CD I have, DDD recording. Check that out on your streamer.
@@zulumax1 I don’t use MQA anymore as I switched to Amazon HD music that streams in native FLAC original CD or better quality. Some tracks are 192kHz 24 bits FLAC. Obviously streaming a CD is better than playing it as streaming can happen with zero data errors while CDs often will have some damages causing error compensation to occur that can be audible. MP3 somewhat ruined the image of quality digital music that CD made in the consumer awareness for some while. I agree the problem has been on the CDs themselves also being mastered for mass consumption rather than optimum audiophile qualities.
excellent guidance. Also as you have reported, the DAC is obsoleted very quickly. Sure higher end DACs like PS Directstream can be kept current through software updates, but generally not. Additionally, a separate DAC can be driven by the CD transport and then additionally by a computer. A Rasberry Pi with an I2S reclocker such as Allo Kalli makes an amazing system to play files or stream from the net using your favorite DAC. So the separate DAC is a clear winner.
Spot on Paul! I would still advice to not output the digital files from a CD-player but some playback device like a computer with SSD. There are some nice CD transports but the most cost effective way is to set up a computer with SSD to achieve good sound.
I just bought an external DAC for 2 channel listening. I've been using my AVR for dual duty. It sounds great but not like a true 2 channel system. There is a noticable improvement when I stream through it (though not huge). Haven't tried cds yet. Puts a cleaner edge on the mids and treble. Plus, the DAC has balanced outputs, my amp seemed to really come alive. The receiver is an Onkyo TX RZ820, DAC is a RME ADI-2 FS.
i been looking into the RME ADI-2 FS, got great reviews for features and sound quality. how is the eq and the 2 outputs working? i would like highpass for my main speakers with balanced outputs and some bass eq on my subwoofer on the unbalanced.
@@sudd3660 so far i've only barely messed with the eq, etc. It has a lot of functions. I just got it for X-mas. I did run the RCA outs trough my AVR to compare. And I messed with the eq cutting some room noise, more work on that. Everything seems pretty good. I'll tell you, it sounds great out of the box with a quality source.
Thanks for sharing, I’m also wondering about adding an external DAC to an AV receiver. What were you using for a DAC before, the ones built into the computer sound card & CD player, or one within your receiver?
@@rustyjeep2469 I used my receiver. It does a pretty good job, but I've always found AVRs are a little lacking for 2 channel. I also own the Innomaker bluetooth DAC for my garage stereo, I have a vintage receiver out there. It sounds great for it's purpose.
Agreed. S/PDIF is lossless, it's basically the digits right off the disc (with a tiny protocol budget). Decent DAC circuits reclock the data to eliminate outside jitter and perform high speed smoothing algorithms to deliver an output signal at a fast rate to minimize analog filtering. The signal processing pre and post conversion is the biggest differentiator of sound quality among units; the advantage of having the high accuracy DAC separate from the transport unit is that when the transport fails it can be replaced while keeping the sound high end. Besides, some of these offerings are stupid priced which is unnecessary for excellent sound. Cheers!
I feel that the DAC should be the last component to buy. At that point, if your music can’t sound any better, you may need to look for the component to make it sound better. Plus, so many are being released, it gives the listener more time to purchase the latest and greatest model.
thanks for the video for pointing out a use case .. CD players have DAC. Preamps have DAC and probably are the DACs... the absolute need for external dacs is still too subtle for me to find......
That's the way I want to go too. No LPs, limited number of CDs, a simple CD player and the mainstay will be losless digital files. Investment going to a DAC, not mechanical players.
Best improvement in each of my 2 systems were with DACs. My bedroom system has a Parasound ZDac (v1) and after playing with an ifi Nano iOne in the living room for a month, splurged and bought a Schiit Gungnir multibit DAC, hooked to a Marantz SR7007 running stereo only in "Pure Direct" mode and bi-amping (with the otherwise unused surround back channels) to a pair of Martin Logan Theos. The Gungnir made a HUGE improvement in the soundstage, giving music a holographic presentation. The DAC inside the Marantz SR7007 isn't BAD, it's actually quite good! But it simply can't compete with the Gungnir! Best thing is, there is a DAC for just about every budget. Schiit has their "Modi 3" DAC for $99! Even that would be a HUGE improvement on the DAC in your CD player. Check it out.
@Jingle Nuts it's not the chip per se, it's the implementation of the chip. Otherwise, all dacs with the same chip would sound exactly the same, but they don't! ✋ Cheers. 🎶🎶🎶
This is something I have thought about for sometime. I have been quite happy using my very long in the tooth Marantz SA8001 and CD5001, through their analog outputs. I have had most every OPPO made along the way, and have played around with possible permutations, but prefer the sound using the analog Marantz outputs, even with SACD. I have not been convinced of the possibility of that much greater sound, that would require spending tens of thousands of dollars that I don't have, in experimenting with various drives and outboard DACs, in pursuit of audio nirvana. Perhaps I will make friends with someone who happens to have all that kit lying around, so I can pursue that fool's errand. Thank you for all you efforts Paul.
I too have owned almost every Oppo player from dvd, blu ray to 4k. The Oppo UDP 203 & 205 got measured by Audioholics when they came out. The DAC performance from both was reference and very accurate. Probably what you're hearing with the DAC in you're Marantz SA8001 is the usual Marantz sound signature. The Oppo UDP 203 & 205 are actually less coloured so sound more natural realistic. Some people prefer a boosted sound. And some (not all) of these expensive external DACs measure poorly more colouration than reasonable priced and even cheap DACs.
My cd and dvd and bluray players all have digital outs to my avr. they also have rca outs. I use the rca outs thereby utilizing the dac inside the players rather than the dac in my sony avr which I don't like. But my Denon hdcd and universal dvd players and my Yamaha cd player sound excellent this way. I use my blue ray player to play blue ray music and 5.1 sacds thru hdmi to the sony avr so I am dealing with the sony avr dac there. It might be nice to have a multi input dac that utilized hdcd and sacd codecs/formats?
I have a Blue-Ray Player and have tried it both ways HDMI into my Receiver using the Receiver internal DAC and RCA off the player and it sounds better using my AVR's DAC which is capable of everything for, 24/192, DSD and the Latest encoding for movies.
When the new transport is finished, can you please make a video to demonstrate some of the features of the PS Audio transport and DAC? I know you can't really demonstrate the sound, what with RUclips compression, but just show some of the features on them, please.
Thanks Paul. I'm in UK. I have an old Pioneer DVD DV400 which I currently use as a CD player. I think it sounds great but would wiring up a DAC improve the quality of sound? I think the Pioneer has a good DAC built in. Would love your view. Many thanks for your videos. Very informative. Cheers. John
@@charlescalkins4732 I started with a delta sigma DAC Modi 3 and it was well worth the $100 bucks, although I knew this DAC works in the 3-5 bit range, so I upgraded to a multibit DAC Bifrost2, this one runs at 18 bits and it’s just a beast, well worth the $800 bucks, just make sure your music source it’s of good quality, like Paul says “you can have low quality records labeled as HD”
Cheapaudioman has a video showing a $12 dac on Amazon and says it sounds great. It has optical and digital coax in but I also wanted usb so I got the $110 SMSL Sanskrit Mk ii. Mind blowing.
Amazon has a cheap DAC under the AmazonBasics brand, haven’t seen any review or measurements. But it sounds close to my SMSL m100, sometimes even less clipping.
I have the exterbal Exogal comet plus DAC and l bypass the Saber DAC in my Oppo BD 105 blu ray player and l also bypass the DAC in my Audiolab 6000n streamer Both the BD 105 and Audiolab have good DAC's but l really enjoy the Exogal DAC with its separate power supply
@@ford1546 indeed. While the converters are the heart of a digital system, the loudspeakers will always be the most important aspect of a system I think.
@@elgringoec of course everything is important! My point is that the loudspeakers are the actual point of contact, and are most responsible for the sound on your end.
@@graxjpg That's an interesting turn of phrase, "actual point of contact". Let's clarify and say that the reproducing transducer converts an electrical analog to pressure variations in the air which the ear recognizes as sound. It only seems natural that a person untrained in physics and electronics would pick the largest, most visible part of a system to consider the "most important aspect". But in reality, any single stage along the way from capturing to reproducing can alter and degrade the result. Perhaps it could be said with good degree of credibility that the pressure transducers (mics and loudspeakers) are the hardest to get accurate. That indicates those ends require more resources. But for argument's sake, suppose for a second that it were possible to get those two ends perfect -- then for perfect reproduction, every single stage conveying and converting the electrical analog would also have to be perfect -- also an impossible feat. Any one single stage can degrade the clarity of the sound. Put a few more years into A/B comparisons, design a few power amps, preamps, and converters -- then opine anew. Cheers!
I was thinking about buying Beolab 5's. Do you have experience with these speakers? I've looked all over the Internet for good reviews where they go to the depth of these speakers. If you have experience with these speakers, I would appreciate your thoughts and experience from Beolab 5. Mvh Norway
I’m using an inexpensive ~ 10 year old Sony DVD player as my CD transport, but I do have it connected w/ digital coax to my mid-level Denon AVR receiver. I think CD audio sounds quite good, but I’m very curious to know how the DAC inside the receiver would compare to an entry level external DAC. I.E., I wonder if adding a sub-$100 external DAC would improve sound quality enough to hear the difference.
rustyjeep, I'm kinda in the same boat! I have a much older 6 CD Disc Player / Changer by Onkyo from 1989. I guess now they call these things Transports. It is connected to a NAD 1300 Preamp/ NAD 2600 Amp (1987). With The NAD lioke your Denon and any other Reciever or Integrated Amps of today, there are CD Inputs which connect it to the Built in DAC. Tjis video and some others seem to dictate that a separate DAC of new Vintage may Improve the quality of the CD sound. I may opt to try one at Shiit , the Modi+ for $129 to see (or Hear!) any enhancements.
Chord Qutest DAC for Xmas. Ive loaded my 1000 cd collection onto my laptop hard drive and connected via usb to the dac. Also tv and film sound much better. Anyone have a better way to play my cd collection ?, please any advise welcome.
Hi Paul, I have a Luxman D-08 SACD player which originally retailed for $18,000. Weighs over 50 pounds and built like a tank. Would you assume that has a really good DAC?
I have owned and loved or why DIA CD player for over 20 years now. I also on your DSD DAC/STREAMER. Would you suggest that I not use the deck section of the Wadia in favor of the your FPGA DAC? I've been hesitant in trying this out because I believe my CDs still sound somewhat better than streaming even with Qobuz
Just invest in high quality cd player with digital input to function as a good DAC as well. Dont ignore the role of a good transport to produce smooth streaming of digital data.
Thanks I would like to know to reprove my cd I think I paid 300 yrs ago about 8 yrs or so Onkyo. Like you said a good dac would be better way to go. But what one is the big question 100 dac 300 or even 500 dac I know your dac are out of my league so what you recommend
I guess just like everything else in hifi that even dacs with different chips, layouts and circuits have their own sonic flavours (and positives and negatives). Some are v curved, bright, while others smooth and warm and others neutral. After a while it all gets confusing ...as at one point I had a dac in my bluesound node 2i, Peachtree nova integrated amp and yulong headphone amp (and preamp). They all sounded different (but I wasn't sure it was other factors) . But the peachtree sounded the worst. So as I only stream and play digital files I got a crown power amp and it confirmed the peachtree was no longer needed (although I miss it's looks). But the yulong DAC sounded the best so far.. but ironically for me the best and most noticeable improvement in my digital system was adding a tube preamp...and a very cheap one at that!
@@bassman4632 In the early days of CD, it was pretty common for us audiophile/hobbyists to redesign the output stages of those players. The CD was a fascinating concept at introduction but the sound quality did not quite live up to good vinyl standards then, but we found that upgrading the op-amps, caps, resistors, adding local voltage regulation, and reshaping the output "brick wall" anti-aliasing filter made for a more pleasant listening experience. As digital devices speed capability increased, they were able to increase conversion speed and interpolate samples in between the actual samples, cutting way back on the transient and phase distorting steep analog filter requirements. Conversion improvements drastically improved sound accuracy and clarity and thus pretty much eliminated the need to rework the circuitries for what in comparison would be relatively minor improvements. Today you don't need an expensive transport nor expensive DAC to get excellent sound quality. You just need to pick one (or build one) that uses excellent converter/processor chips, op-amps, power supply, passive components... Today, all that does not add up to a big expense. Cheers!
I just stumbled onto this, and I must say I'm totally confused. Currently I have a mid-1990s JVC RX-770V A/V receiver that I am running output from my Pioneer PL-518 turntable (RCA plugs w/ground) into. No need for a pre-amp. I'm using a much newer (2019) DVD/CD player connected to the CD inputs (RCA plugs). Why would I need a DAC when the receiver must have an internal DAC(s) for the CD player signal? Or the CD player has an internal DAC with the output through the RCA plugs being analog? I realize my setup isn't exactly high-end, and that the JVC receiver isn't the best option, but it's what I have for now. When the PL-518 was new (I bought it in 1979) I had a Technics SU-7300 integrated amp (40W/channel @ 8 ohms) and a separate tuner. I expected the audio output from the JVC unit, being nearly 20 years newer, would sound as good, if not better. I can't say that is the case! Speakers aside, is there benefit to an external DAC , and would the CD output have to be run through the DAC and connected to the JVC CD input RCA connections or into the AUX input? Thanks!
And I thought I was nuts using an ancient Sony CD player through Emotiva DC-1 or Aune X8 and wondering how it can sound so damn good. It’s all just 1s and 0s until a proper DAC can do some quality assembly.
question for the community: Got a real nice early 2000s pioneer elite DVD/SACD player, has on board "triple" burr brown DACs (I'm guessing three stereo dacs for six channel output/dvd audio) . But recently got a much newer DAC, the schiit modi 3+ (akm4490 chip)... What would yall think is the better option?
There are a zillion DACs and searching e.g. audiogon audio forum may yield more info. Many people find "R2R ladder DACs" sound better i.e. less fatiguing, more musical, etc. YMMV.
So if my cheap CD player has a throw away DAC in it and I want to use a high quality external DAC with it, how/what is the best way to avoid having the throw away DAC in the signal chain?
What he said, I'm very happy with the schitt modi 3+ for 99$. My CD player has a decent DAC so I don't really know which one is better tbh. But if you know you have a garbage DAC, any external will most likely be better.
I think a more relevant question is do you need an external DAC when you have a mid to upper tier AVR and are streaming music through it? Say, a Denon AVR-X3xxx or X4xxx line of AVRs. Most people I know these days are not playing physical CDs.
Good to see/hear that Paul is keeping his hyperbolic huckster persona in check. There was a time not that many months ago when he declared that 'all CD players are crap', or words to that effect. Various commenters, myself included, called him out on that. The bell curve is still at play here. Some CD players are utter crap; a lot are just okay, nothing special; some are actually quite good; and a few are excellent. You can say exactly the same thing about external DACs.
Hi Paul, Thanks for the videos, I am now having trouble finding your videos that I haven’t seen. I have subscribed to your emails too and find them very interesting and informative. Could you please answer my question? Some streamers like Node2i have DACS too and they cost around $550. So, by the logic you just gave in this video I am assuming and applying the same logic to music streamers selling for $550. Could you please elaborate the difference between an internal DAC in a CD player and an internal DAC in a music streamer selling at $550.
This applies to phones. Instead of listening to bluetooth headphones, go old school quality cabled headphones into a $100 Dragonfly USB DAC, and feed them lightly compressed 320 kbs MP3s or FLAC files and enjoy high end sound while at at the gym ;)
Exactly. That's why I have a good external DAC/headphone amp. Plus, this way you avoid internal interference (e.g. power noise due to the graphics card), if you use an optical connection.
@@freibier There are fantastic internal DACs available. The Lynx E22 is rivals the best external cards, for example. With a $70 motherboard, there really isn't any room in the BOM for a $5 DAC chip, much less a $20 chip. Then you put some really crusty analog circuitry afterwards using a $0.05 op-amp on the same PCB as the high-current switching transients from the CPU.
CD players now are like vinyl or a tape. So, they must look esthetic, but investments must go in DAC first. In case you have a big collection of disks, and for some reasons don’t want to reap them, I think it makes sense to use a device with ARM processor, hard drive, and a simple CD inside. It makes no sense to invest into precise mechanics these days when computers are tiny and silent.
external DAC. has many uses! you can get DAC. as good as the most expensive CD player. You can use a dac. to your PC. and get noise-free transmission to your hifi equipment. You can upgrade the sound with a good DAC!
True though you dilute the signal by having too many devices in the chain all connected to each other. I just use a short signal path Oppo UDP 203 connected through the RCA analogue outputs to a very high quality transparent stereo power amplifier.
@@C--A If you use the sound card that is in. the motherboard then you will not get the best sound quality. There is also a lot of noise inside a computer. If you use a good DAC. then you get less noise and better sound! What kind of amplifier and speakers do you have
Sounds right... But it's not. The pro grade stuff in the mid eighties is shockingly good. The consumer stuff was pathetic then even in comparison to vinyl but the pro digital recorders from back then - you can hear the quality in those recordings. Of course they cost a mint...
I have a newb question, why do so may hifi enthusiasts/ audiophiles listen to music in stereo? Right now my favorite way to listen to my music is on an old 6.2 channel Onkyo receiver. I am currently in the "research stage" getting ready to take the next step into hifi equipment like DACs and tube amps but honestly I don't have much interest in a stereo setup... I'm hoping there is some way I can recreate a 6.2 channel setup but using quality hifi equipment.
Probably because the listening material is in stereo. Changing a stereo recording to play out of all your home theater speaker at once is very wrong for pure fidelity. A stereo recording only has 2 discrete tracks. Converting it to play through multiple speakers creates a flawed reproduction.
Most music is recorded and mastered for 2 channel stereo. While it's possible to mux the audio to a surround setup this wouldn't be the ideal. The mastered stereo image would sound off. That being said, a proper stereo setup in a dedicated listening room could give the stereo image a 3D soundstage that make the speakers disappear. That's the goal!
Two good reasons: 1) five or more mediocre channels for the price of two good ones. 2) it's hard enough to set up two speakers properly, let alone a bunch more.
I also listen to 2.0 music through a surround sound set up but I use the All Channel Stereo setting. I have a 5.1 setup with 4 floor standing tower 4 way speakers with built in subs and 2 separate powered subs. I don’t know why but it just sounds best to me this way over just using the 2 fronts.
I am surprised that a transport system is not as important as a DAC! Anyhow, I've become aware of something more, Paul. However, if the DAC in a CD, SACD system is so important, then why does Denon design, and boast about their very effective transport? What about the very high price of those top 2 Yamaha SACD Players? By the way, those Yamaha CD Players are a single unit. Therefore, even the second most expensive SACD Player by Yamaha is still very expensive; and it is partly because of the CD transport; or is this factor true?
Lets not forget the Analog stage. The last part that leaves a DAC or CD player. You can have the best DAC, but if you do a weak analog stage, all of that DAC work is wasted.
I guess I'm ass backwards. My transport $450. (Cambridge) Dac #1 $99 (Schiit). Dac #2 XtremPro DAC/Headphone amplifier. $32.99. (better than a Dragonfly Black at 1/3 the price).
I love my older Linn Ikemi HDCD Player, but recently got the chance to try out the Chord/Quietist, and then implemented with the Linn, and that was an eyeopener. The Linn Ikemi transport is a really solid one, so ism thinking of trying some different DAC's in the near fure. Because at the end of the day, i really do love my CD collection, and could never go all digital/streaming. Cheers from Denmark
@@thomasandersen1784 Transport/DAC - all good!! I'd personally would love to get rid of that pesky spdif connection. man...the yield of good digital files vs not so good ones is..well...blahh..Cheers
I was wondering if anyone can answer this. I have 2 CD changers 1 is a Harmon Kardon and the other is an Onkyo. I had to take them apart to do a good cleaning on the lens. I basically hook them up with a coax digital connection to my prepro. They both claim to have Burr Brown DACs in them but the HK decodes HDCD while the Onkyo does not. They both do however use the same optical pick up (has the same part number) but the Onkyo plays much louder than the HK does wether I use the player’s DAC by running the RCAs or the digital coax cable to my prepro. This is not to say the Onkyo sounds better but it is louder. The Onkyo is about 15 years old. The HK is older but had the pick up replaced just before I bought the Onkyo to replace it due to skipping issues. If the transport doesn’t matter how can they have much different sound characteristics while using the same optical pick up?
Paul until now i pretty much went with you all the way until today you spoke about DACs - you said that the DAC would be the most important part-now maybe i have misunderstood you that but I always thought the loudspeaker was the most important part in any system again Paul if I have misunderstood you I apologise
Your US$10 iPhone Lightning DAC dongle can beat some US$1000s audiophile DACs from the past. And your iPhone’s A14 SOC has more compute power than giant super computers from the 80s. Anyway, I’m not suggesting to use a US$10 DAC. Agree with Paul, an external DAC is the way to go but state of the art chips cost much less than US$100 and a complete DAC doesn’t need to cost more than US$200 (AKM, ESS etc.).
Diminishing returns come into play at those prices. Do I get as much enjoyment out of my system as you do? Perchance... even though my soundstage may not be as large, or as absorbing, the intense pleasure I get is immeasurable. Congrats on having such a covetable system!
@@graxjpg truth be told my friend... diminishing returns start at a $100 USB stick DAC... don't fool yourself, anything that measures average and costs $500 or so will be hardly noticeable from a $115000 Vivaldi or MSB DAC... you're paying for build quality, country of origin, and other non-audibles when you climb into this realm.
@@Sams911 Delightful reply mate. Nice one. Someone who spends, or can spend that kind of poke and still be a reasonable, down to earth bloke. Kudos man. I'm down at the more bargain end of the whole deal. Though I enjoy tweaking and pissing around. A Happy New Year too. All the best everyone.
There are plenty of opinions about the importance of DACs in many audio forums. I don’t claim any special knowledge on the subject, but a number of blind listening test have (IMHO) shown the specific DAC to not be as important as most think. However, it is acknowledged that expensive external DACs can have useful convenience features, and that post DAC circuitry and filters can color the output sound. If the output is neutral, then, it doesn’t get any better than that. Sometimes spending more money doesn’t buy better audio no matter how much we wish it were so. But it’s difficult to convince someone who does not want to be convinced; data be damned. Do your own research before buying new equipment.
I recently conducted an experiment. I have a 1989 Pioneer CD player and a 1990 Pioneer amp (not really top of the range even in the day), and a pair of 2020 Magnat speakers. I used this set-up to play a 1961 recording of Doris Day and André Previn (issued on CD in 2000). I used a pair of 1965 Aures Hominum audio analysers to measure the audio qualilty, and it seemed just fine to me. When I closed my eyes, it was like being in the studio with Doris, and I felt like reaching out to try and cop a feel. I just can't imagine anything would make the sound better.
That is the general agreement of the entire market what he says. But I don't agree. If you focus more on the DAC sound which most manufactors want to do, then it has to be extremely expensive to build to save the sound before it is sent to the amp. Whereas, if you can make the sound so good that the DAC only has to do a fraction of the job, you in general save a lot of money as a consumer. But yeah, it is a reality they want to keep real, it keeps everything at a certain level so you HAVE to have a good DAC and use a lot of money on it. But yea, easier said than done.
@@thisisnev Think about it, if you fix the problem before the DAC, then the DAC does not have to be so good, plus you create a bigger positive impact on the sound. I did a video about it on my channel. I believe most manufactors are doing this in a way that makes gear way to expensive.
@@RealHIFIHelp What exactly is this "Problem" of which you speak? What is it doing? HOW does this impact the DAC? The DAC is merely sampling voltage levels of a signal. What "fraction of the job" exactly? As Nev said. It makes no sense to me at all either.
@@rationalmartian I am just saying that, all the manufactors should use more energy on fixing the source signal (streamer, CD player) so the user does not depend on having a super good DAC to save the sound. The more you can fix the signal at the root, the bigger effect it has on the sound. Every time, you instead move closer to the end signal, you will have to use more money on improving the signal. Simply because you are amplifying the error. Whereas doing it right from the start, at such a high level, before the signal travels to the DAC, makes the whole production and the end product that the user gets in the store, just a lot cheaper. The company that can do that, wins. My friends was basically the only person in the world that did this. And because of that, his circa 100 dollars DAC beats mine, even though, my DAC is 10x better than his, and my amp is 3x better, and speakers are 5x better. Source signal means everything.
Hi Paul what I’ve found out about CD players now is that less and less company are making cheap CD player because less people are buying stand alone CD player,so you are getting some excellent CD player with really good built inDACs from people that are bothered and at a reasonable price.thanks Tony.
Yes, its true they can be pricey. Cheapest ones start at more than their Blu-ray and DVD player counterparts that go dirt cheap. They can reach several thousand, with models from Rega, Vincent, Naim, Atoll etc. Also, there are more models of cd players in the market, than the other two formats combined. Not many new models though. Many are a few years old. Good ones from Marantz, NAD, Cambridge Audio Yamaha for the sub $500 and the $1000 category.
Наука
I stayed at a really nice hotel once (I mean *really* nice ) and the hotel staff always left a courtesy DAC on the pillow every night.
🤣🤣🤣
Paul, you’re like everyone’s favorite teacher they had in school.
Absolutely agree!
A good video is informative in a short amount of time. So informative that i had to watch it twice just to get it.
Paul not only do I love the information but your ability to explain a concept in simple terms that can apply to everyone
is really helpful. Happy New Year and keep these audios coming
Thx Paul for your insights and Happy NY to you and family
I love your videos.You and Mr Russ Andrews oh and Roy Kimber have taught me a lot on my quest to achieve better audio pleasure from my music and movies
Hi Paul, thank you for your videos as usual. I totally agree with your comments made in this video. There are exceptions to the rule like the JLTi upgraded OPPO BDP Blu Ray player that I have which I prefer the sound of. I still use external DAC’s on my other system for streaming from my computer.
I listened to this video through my old PS Audio Digital Link III DAC. It sounded really good!
What an extremely honest summation. Thank you, Sir.
Remember... an “external” DAC includes one in a fine integrated amp. It doesn’t need to be a completely separate item.
I'd say most DACs in integrated amps are courtesy DACs as well.
Thanks Paul for the video, see you in 2021, tomorrow.
My Denon CD player has a 32 bit Burr Brown DAC with proprietary algorithm interpolation that up-samples the information with 32 bit quality so that the signal closely resembles the original analog signal , it's best sounding unit I ever owned.
yep.i own one of yours and it sounds great.
I bought a nice DAC last year to get away from my PC soundcard and never looked back! My ears love it!
Any nice Dacs and headphone amps for shure 1440
Which dac did you buy?
@@ramipo1 I curretnly have the Schiit Modi 3E. Great price and it works great.
@@VinylRescue do you conect it to your amp? Do you feel the sound better?
@@ramipo1 it's connected from my computer to my headphone amp.
Same here , I’m still using my Denon 3520 CD player...and though I’ve used various out board DAC’s....over the years....I haven’t found one that is jaw droppingly better...it’s been over two decades and it’s still rocking!
Yes, my Denon CD player also sound awesome with the DAC inside of it. External DACs make much more sense on PCs where you can isolate the DAC from the noisy PC.
Denon was one of the better sounding all in one units. I still have a DCD-1560 which is a 40lb. (18kg) beast. Sony ES line were also very good. CD's started scraping, now it won't spin, sadly. The Denon has a motorized output volume control, so I used it in the bedroom hooked strait to an Adcom 535 mk II and a set of small ADS speakers.
@@zulumax1 It's funny how digital audio was already great with a 1980s Denon CD player and then in the early 2000s digital music became synonymous with over-compressed MP3 files and vinyl sort of got a second life. In part slow internet a couple of decades ago is to blame for how digital music became frowned upon, but nowadays that is also history with CD (or better) quality streaming. I have left vinyl behind and must admit I've gone all streaming. It's just incredibly awesome that you can pick a song among 60 million songs on Amazon HD Music (Tidal or whatever) and it plays flawlessly bit-perfect in less than a second. And maybe even more awesome is that you don't have to bother with playing a vinyl or CD with only one song you actually like. Building a playlist with your favorite music playing in FLAC 44.1kHz 16 bits or better is super easy. I used to collect a lot of vinyl discs and CDs, but they are now just collecting dust. Some of my discs have scratches that become audible. Streaming is just completely without errors. I also have a big collection of VHS tapes, DVDs and Blu-Ray movies that are in storage boxes. Streaming 4K video with 5.1 surround (or more) now works 100% without errors and has killed physical media providing better quality. The internet killed the physical media...reminds me of a vinyl single I have "Video killed the radio star" from ages ago.
@@ThinkingBetter Problem with streaming service is you have no control over the quality of the original file recording quality of the source file. 192 or MQA doen't heip it to sound any better than the source. I like having my own files on a physical device, not on the cloud.
Most CD's made for the general public were compressed for the car and portable devices. Mainstream audio CD's have more limiting and compression than a vinyl record, when it was capable of much more. That is what killed CD's.not MP3. Loudness war, easier to do on digital.
Of course there were exceptions like Flim & the BB's - Big Notes - Born to Love You. Probably the most dynamic range of any redbook CD I have, DDD recording. Check that out on your streamer.
@@zulumax1 I don’t use MQA anymore as I switched to Amazon HD music that streams in native FLAC original CD or better quality. Some tracks are 192kHz 24 bits FLAC. Obviously streaming a CD is better than playing it as streaming can happen with zero data errors while CDs often will have some damages causing error compensation to occur that can be audible. MP3 somewhat ruined the image of quality digital music that CD made in the consumer awareness for some while. I agree the problem has been on the CDs themselves also being mastered for mass consumption rather than optimum audiophile qualities.
excellent guidance.
Also as you have reported, the DAC is obsoleted very quickly. Sure higher end DACs like PS Directstream can be kept current through software updates, but generally not.
Additionally, a separate DAC can be driven by the CD transport and then additionally by a computer. A Rasberry Pi with an I2S reclocker such as Allo Kalli makes an amazing system to play files or stream from the net using your favorite DAC. So the separate DAC is a clear winner.
Spot on Paul! I would still advice to not output the digital files from a CD-player but some playback device like a computer with SSD. There are some nice CD transports but the most cost effective way is to set up a computer with SSD to achieve good sound.
What a relief! I just ordered one. Have yet to try it out.
if you ordered a DirectStream DAC, prepare yourself.
it will shatter every notion youve previously held.
I wish. Had to settle for Pro-Ject RS 2...
@@johanlarsson3777 , oh ... best of luck.
I just bought an external DAC for 2 channel listening. I've been using my AVR for dual duty. It sounds great but not like a true 2 channel system. There is a noticable improvement when I stream through it (though not huge). Haven't tried cds yet. Puts a cleaner edge on the mids and treble. Plus, the DAC has balanced outputs, my amp seemed to really come alive. The receiver is an Onkyo TX RZ820, DAC is a RME ADI-2 FS.
i been looking into the RME ADI-2 FS, got great reviews for features and sound quality. how is the eq and the 2 outputs working? i would like highpass for my main speakers with balanced outputs and some bass eq on my subwoofer on the unbalanced.
@@sudd3660 so far i've only barely messed with the eq, etc. It has a lot of functions. I just got it for X-mas. I did run the RCA outs trough my AVR to compare. And I messed with the eq cutting some room noise, more work on that. Everything seems pretty good. I'll tell you, it sounds great out of the box with a quality source.
Thanks for sharing, I’m also wondering about adding an external DAC to an AV receiver. What were you using for a DAC before, the ones built into the computer sound card & CD player, or one within your receiver?
@@rustyjeep2469 I used my receiver. It does a pretty good job, but I've always found AVRs are a little lacking for 2 channel. I also own the Innomaker bluetooth DAC for my garage stereo, I have a vintage receiver out there. It sounds great for it's purpose.
Agreed. S/PDIF is lossless, it's basically the digits right off the disc (with a tiny protocol budget). Decent DAC circuits reclock the data to eliminate outside jitter and perform high speed smoothing algorithms to deliver an output signal at a fast rate to minimize analog filtering. The signal processing pre and post conversion is the biggest differentiator of sound quality among units; the advantage of having the high accuracy DAC separate from the transport unit is that when the transport fails it can be replaced while keeping the sound high end. Besides, some of these offerings are stupid priced which is unnecessary for excellent sound. Cheers!
I feel that the DAC should be the last component to buy.
At that point, if your music can’t sound any better, you may need to look for the component to make it sound better.
Plus, so many are being released, it gives the listener more time to purchase the latest and greatest model.
straight talk, thank you
I just learned something new today.
Happy New Year! :)
thanks for the video for pointing out a use case ..
CD players have DAC. Preamps have DAC and probably are the DACs...
the absolute need for external dacs is still too subtle for me to find......
the transport (CD or HD server) is very important to achieve great sound.
TEAC VRDS-10 is what I own.
Is there a specific recommended DAC?
That's the way I want to go too. No LPs, limited number of CDs, a simple CD player and the mainstay will be losless digital files. Investment going to a DAC, not mechanical players.
Yup if don't have cd or lps, still get an external dac, for high res audio files from pc ect
I have had a DCS Puccini, Esoteric K-01XS, and now an Esoteric K-O1XD. I think these are good single transport/DAC players.
Great timing, I was just wondering about this only yesterday ! My CD player has a Burr-Brown but also optical and coax outputs.
I like the Burr Brown sound thru rca outs.
Best improvement in each of my 2 systems were with DACs. My bedroom system has a Parasound ZDac (v1) and after playing with an ifi Nano iOne in the living room for a month, splurged and bought a Schiit Gungnir multibit DAC, hooked to a Marantz SR7007 running stereo only in "Pure Direct" mode and bi-amping (with the otherwise unused surround back channels) to a pair of Martin Logan Theos. The Gungnir made a HUGE improvement in the soundstage, giving music a holographic presentation. The DAC inside the Marantz SR7007 isn't BAD, it's actually quite good! But it simply can't compete with the Gungnir!
Best thing is, there is a DAC for just about every budget. Schiit has their "Modi 3" DAC for $99! Even that would be a HUGE improvement on the DAC in your CD player. Check it out.
@@johnnemesh5459
I heard and read that Schitt makes very good products.
@Jingle Nuts it's not the chip per se, it's the implementation of the chip.
Otherwise, all dacs with the same chip would sound exactly the same, but they don't! ✋
Cheers. 🎶🎶🎶
This is something I have thought about for sometime. I have been quite happy using my very long in the tooth Marantz SA8001 and CD5001, through their analog outputs. I have had most every OPPO made along the way, and have played around with possible permutations, but prefer the sound using the analog Marantz outputs, even with SACD. I have not been convinced of the possibility of that much greater sound, that would require spending tens of thousands of dollars that I don't have, in experimenting with various drives and outboard DACs, in pursuit of audio nirvana. Perhaps I will make friends with someone who happens to have all that kit lying around, so I can pursue that fool's errand. Thank you for all you efforts Paul.
I agree with you 100%
I too have owned almost every Oppo player from dvd, blu ray to 4k. The Oppo UDP 203 & 205 got measured by Audioholics when they came out. The DAC performance from both was reference and very accurate.
Probably what you're hearing with the DAC in you're Marantz SA8001 is the usual Marantz sound signature. The Oppo UDP 203 & 205 are actually less coloured so sound more natural realistic.
Some people prefer a boosted sound. And some (not all) of these expensive external DACs measure poorly more colouration than reasonable priced and even cheap DACs.
Yep !! Quite agree 😀
My cd and dvd and bluray players all have digital outs to my avr. they also have rca outs. I use the rca outs thereby utilizing the dac inside the players rather than the dac in my sony avr which I don't like. But my Denon hdcd and universal dvd players and my Yamaha cd player sound excellent this way. I use my blue ray player to play blue ray music and 5.1 sacds thru hdmi to the sony avr so I am dealing with the sony avr dac there. It might be nice to have a multi input dac that utilized hdcd and sacd codecs/formats?
I have a Blue-Ray Player and have tried it both ways HDMI into my Receiver using the Receiver internal DAC and RCA off the player and it sounds better using my AVR's DAC which is capable of everything for, 24/192, DSD and the Latest encoding for movies.
When the new transport is finished, can you please make a video to demonstrate some of the features of the PS Audio transport and DAC? I know you can't really demonstrate the sound, what with RUclips compression, but just show some of the features on them, please.
Upmarket DACs sound better because they have a better analog output stage - and since the 1990s, "better" analog output stages aren't cheap.
Thanks Paul. I'm in UK. I have an old Pioneer DVD DV400 which I currently use as a CD player. I think it sounds great but would wiring up a DAC improve the quality of sound? I think the Pioneer has a good DAC built in. Would love your view. Many thanks for your videos. Very informative. Cheers. John
Timely. I ordered a multibit dac and hope it sounds interesting in my stereo system.
Nick:
Let us know the results. I for one am curious.
@@charlescalkins4732
I started with a delta sigma DAC Modi 3 and it was well worth the $100 bucks, although I knew this DAC works in the 3-5 bit range, so I upgraded to a multibit DAC Bifrost2, this one runs at 18 bits and it’s just a beast, well worth the $800 bucks, just make sure your music source it’s of good quality, like Paul says “you can have low quality records labeled as HD”
@@georgemoraleswork and the Grungnir from Schitt is also great
@@johnf6288 indeed
Cheapaudioman has a video showing a $12 dac on Amazon and says it sounds great. It has optical and digital coax in but I also wanted usb so I got the $110 SMSL Sanskrit Mk ii. Mind blowing.
That's a fantastic dac, the measurements prove this !!!! It's way beyond human hearing, that's for sure.
Amazon has a cheap DAC under the AmazonBasics brand, haven’t seen any review or measurements. But it sounds close to my SMSL m100, sometimes even less clipping.
I have the exterbal Exogal comet plus DAC and l bypass the Saber DAC in my Oppo BD 105 blu ray player and l also bypass the DAC in my Audiolab 6000n streamer Both the BD 105 and Audiolab have good DAC's but l really enjoy the Exogal DAC with its separate power supply
Teac vrds 25 to a lampizator balanced Golden Gate. Happy as happy can be.
Good converters seem to be the heart of a digital system, whether it’s home recording or Hifi.
It is absolutely true.
But without good speakers it does not matter how good DAC? you have!!
@@ford1546 indeed. While the converters are the heart of a digital system, the loudspeakers will always be the most important aspect of a system I think.
Everything counts.
From mic to speaker.
@@elgringoec of course everything is important! My point is that the loudspeakers are the actual point of contact, and are most responsible for the sound on your end.
@@graxjpg
That's an interesting turn of phrase, "actual point of contact". Let's clarify and say that the reproducing transducer converts an electrical analog to pressure variations in the air which the ear recognizes as sound.
It only seems natural that a person untrained in physics and electronics would pick the largest, most visible part of a system to consider the "most important aspect". But in reality, any single stage along the way from capturing to reproducing can alter and degrade the result.
Perhaps it could be said with good degree of credibility that the pressure transducers (mics and loudspeakers) are the hardest to get accurate. That indicates those ends require more resources. But for argument's sake, suppose for a second that it were possible to get those two ends perfect -- then for perfect reproduction, every single stage conveying and converting the electrical analog would also have to be perfect -- also an impossible feat.
Any one single stage can degrade the clarity of the sound. Put a few more years into A/B comparisons, design a few power amps, preamps, and converters -- then opine anew.
Cheers!
I was thinking about buying Beolab 5's. Do you have experience with these speakers? I've looked all over the Internet for good reviews where they go to the depth of these speakers.
If you have experience with these speakers, I would appreciate your thoughts and experience from Beolab 5.
Mvh
Norway
I am wondering if you would be willing to go out on a limb and send links to those that you recommend. Thanks.
I’m using an inexpensive ~ 10 year old Sony DVD player as my CD transport, but I do have it connected w/ digital coax to my mid-level Denon AVR receiver. I think CD audio sounds quite good, but I’m very curious to know how the DAC inside the receiver would compare to an entry level external DAC. I.E., I wonder if adding a sub-$100 external DAC would improve sound quality enough to hear the difference.
rustyjeep, I'm kinda in the same boat! I have a much older 6 CD Disc Player / Changer by Onkyo from 1989. I guess now they call these things Transports. It is connected to a NAD 1300 Preamp/ NAD 2600 Amp (1987). With The NAD lioke your Denon and any other Reciever or Integrated Amps of today, there are CD Inputs which connect it to the Built in DAC. Tjis video and some others seem to dictate that a separate DAC of new Vintage may Improve the quality of the CD sound. I may opt to try one at Shiit , the Modi+ for $129 to see (or Hear!) any enhancements.
Chord Qutest DAC for Xmas. Ive loaded my 1000 cd collection onto my laptop hard drive and connected via usb to the dac. Also tv and film sound much better.
Anyone have a better way to play my cd collection ?, please any advise welcome.
I bought a Cambridge transport this year and run it through my preamps DAC, now I hardly listen to FLAC files anymore,quite a revelation in sound q
Very true. I never listen to my digital files now. I have the same Cambridge cxc v2
Hi Paul, I have a Luxman D-08 SACD player which originally retailed for $18,000. Weighs over 50 pounds and built like a tank. Would you assume that has a really good DAC?
I have owned and loved or why DIA CD player for over 20 years now. I also on your DSD DAC/STREAMER. Would you suggest that I not use the deck section of the Wadia in favor of the your FPGA DAC? I've been hesitant in trying this out because I believe my CDs still sound somewhat better than streaming even with Qobuz
I use an integrated amp with pass thru capability. Would I plug the CD player to the dac to the integrated amp to the amp?
Just invest in high quality cd player with digital input to function as a good DAC as well. Dont ignore the role of a good transport to produce smooth streaming of digital data.
Thanks I would like to know to reprove my cd I think I paid 300 yrs ago about 8 yrs or so Onkyo. Like you said a good dac would be better way to go. But what one is the big question 100 dac 300 or even 500 dac I know your dac are out of my league so what you recommend
Quick and dirty... cheers from Italy . Have a nice 2021!!!
I guess just like everything else in hifi that even dacs with different chips, layouts and circuits have their own sonic flavours (and positives and negatives). Some are v curved, bright, while others smooth and warm and others neutral. After a while it all gets confusing ...as at one point I had a dac in my bluesound node 2i, Peachtree nova integrated amp and yulong headphone amp (and preamp).
They all sounded different (but I wasn't sure it was other factors) . But the peachtree sounded the worst. So as I only stream and play digital files I got a crown power amp and it confirmed the peachtree was no longer needed (although I miss it's looks).
But the yulong DAC sounded the best so far..
but ironically for me the best and most noticeable improvement in my digital system was adding a tube preamp...and a very cheap one at that!
So do I need a external DAC for my Stellar GCD preamp?
I think I would be hard pressed to better the DAC in my Halcro logic EC800 SACD player. But I would expect that from a AU$7,300 player.
Yeah. LOL. I sort'a doubt that is the kind of built in "courtesy" DAC that Paul was talking about.
Agreed, and not only that but I've found once you have an external DAC, upgrading the external one can be a worthwhile exercise too.
You mean buying a better external DAC, or modifying the internals of one you already bought?
@@elgringoec I meant buying a "better" external DAC, but what you propose sounds interesting
@@bassman4632
In the early days of CD, it was pretty common for us audiophile/hobbyists to redesign the output stages of those players. The CD was a fascinating concept at introduction but the sound quality did not quite live up to good vinyl standards then, but we found that upgrading the op-amps, caps, resistors, adding local voltage regulation, and reshaping the output "brick wall" anti-aliasing filter made for a more pleasant listening experience.
As digital devices speed capability increased, they were able to increase conversion speed and interpolate samples in between the actual samples, cutting way back on the transient and phase distorting steep analog filter requirements. Conversion improvements drastically improved sound accuracy and clarity and thus pretty much eliminated the need to rework the circuitries for what in comparison would be relatively minor improvements.
Today you don't need an expensive transport nor expensive DAC to get excellent sound quality. You just need to pick one (or build one) that uses excellent converter/processor chips, op-amps, power supply, passive components... Today, all that does not add up to a big expense.
Cheers!
@@elgringoec very cool!
@@bassman4632
"What a long strange trip it's been"! 😆
I just stumbled onto this, and I must say I'm totally confused. Currently I have a mid-1990s JVC RX-770V A/V receiver that I am running output from my Pioneer PL-518 turntable (RCA plugs w/ground) into. No need for a pre-amp. I'm using a much newer (2019) DVD/CD player connected to the CD inputs (RCA plugs). Why would I need a DAC when the receiver must have an internal DAC(s) for the CD player signal? Or the CD player has an internal DAC with the output through the RCA plugs being analog? I realize my setup isn't exactly high-end, and that the JVC receiver isn't the best option, but it's what I have for now. When the PL-518 was new (I bought it in 1979) I had a Technics SU-7300 integrated amp (40W/channel @ 8 ohms) and a separate tuner. I expected the audio output from the JVC unit, being nearly 20 years newer, would sound as good, if not better. I can't say that is the case! Speakers aside, is there benefit to an external DAC , and would the CD output have to be run through the DAC and connected to the JVC CD input RCA connections or into the AUX input? Thanks!
And I thought I was nuts using an ancient Sony CD player through Emotiva DC-1 or Aune X8 and wondering how it can sound so damn good. It’s all just 1s and 0s until a proper DAC can do some quality assembly.
I've got a cheap Sony running spidf into my Schiit Gungnir Multibit. It works a treat.
So does my OPPO 205 have a cheap dac or something more on order of the newest ones being reviewed recently?
It has a good DAC!
question for the community:
Got a real nice early 2000s pioneer elite DVD/SACD player, has on board "triple" burr brown DACs (I'm guessing three stereo dacs for six channel output/dvd audio) . But recently got a much newer DAC, the schiit modi 3+ (akm4490 chip)...
What would yall think is the better option?
No responses, Lame community
Paul have you listened to a DCS Bartok DAC? Thinking of adding that as a next piece to my system. Right now have Prima Luna tube DAC
There are a zillion DACs and searching e.g. audiogon audio forum may yield more info. Many people find "R2R ladder DACs" sound better i.e. less fatiguing, more musical, etc. YMMV.
Can you please recommend a few external dacs. Thank you.
How is the DAC on the Marantz AV8805? Is it better than the Node 2i ?
So if my cheap CD player has a throw away DAC in it and I want to use a high quality external DAC with it, how/what is the best way to avoid having the throw away DAC in the signal chain?
If your cheap cd player has a digital output, it will bypass the throw away dac when using an 'external' dac.
What he said, I'm very happy with the schitt modi 3+ for 99$. My CD player has a decent DAC so I don't really know which one is better tbh. But if you know you have a garbage DAC, any external will most likely be better.
I think a more relevant question is do you need an external DAC when you have a mid to upper tier AVR and are streaming music through it? Say, a Denon AVR-X3xxx or X4xxx line of AVRs. Most people I know these days are not playing physical CDs.
But what if you have a nice ps preamp? Do you need a external dac? I mean two great dacs?
Is that book not out yet?
Good to see/hear that Paul is keeping his hyperbolic huckster persona in check. There was a time not that many months ago when he declared that 'all CD players are crap', or words to that effect. Various commenters, myself included, called him out on that. The bell curve is still at play here. Some CD players are utter crap; a lot are just okay, nothing special; some are actually quite good; and a few are excellent. You can say exactly the same thing about external DACs.
Hi Paul, Thanks for the videos, I am now having trouble finding your videos that I haven’t seen. I have subscribed to your emails too and find them very interesting and informative. Could you please answer my question? Some streamers like Node2i have DACS too and they cost around $550. So, by the logic you just gave in this video I am assuming and applying the same logic to music streamers selling for $550. Could you please elaborate the difference between an internal DAC in a CD player and an internal DAC in a music streamer selling at $550.
Apply this video to streamers.
So many of my favorite CDs sound so lousy I could use a Walkman and phone plug and it wouldn't make a difference...
This applies to phones. Instead of listening to bluetooth headphones, go old school quality cabled headphones into a $100 Dragonfly USB DAC, and feed them lightly compressed 320 kbs MP3s or FLAC files and enjoy high end sound while at at the gym ;)
Hi, for best possible sound from a stand alone cd player,which is best, analog output or digital output?
Digital if you have a good external dac.
@@pbarach1 thanks..would you assume/consider a £1000 av receiver a good amp with a good dac? It's got an AK4458 384 kHz/32-bit DAC
I have a Krell preamp and a Sumo power amp, do I need a DAC while I use a SAMSUNG CD player that cost $380?
Burr brown is throw away?
Same goes for PCs and their built-in DACs. You're often better off getting a separate DAC than to use the built-in one.
Indeed, having high quality converters is really important for using a computer for audio. Whether it’s reproduction or recording
Exactly. That's why I have a good external DAC/headphone amp. Plus, this way you avoid internal interference (e.g. power noise due to the graphics card), if you use an optical connection.
The DAC in phones suck also.
@@freibier There are fantastic internal DACs available. The Lynx E22 is rivals the best external cards, for example. With a $70 motherboard, there really isn't any room in the BOM for a $5 DAC chip, much less a $20 chip. Then you put some really crusty analog circuitry afterwards using a $0.05 op-amp on the same PCB as the high-current switching transients from the CPU.
I tried a transport and external Dac. Did not sound as good as my Marantz SACD player.
@ Charles...perhaps you tried a poor pairing or perhaps your ears weren't used to the different sound?
Either way, if you're happy, then so be it. 😎
Marantz, make seriously good SACD players. It's all about the engineering after all, and they are good !!!.
CD players now are like vinyl or a tape. So, they must look esthetic, but investments must go in DAC first.
In case you have a big collection of disks, and for some reasons don’t want to reap them, I think it makes sense to use a device with ARM processor, hard drive, and a simple CD inside. It makes no sense to invest into precise mechanics these days when computers are tiny and silent.
external DAC. has many uses! you can get DAC. as good as the most expensive CD player.
You can use a dac. to your PC. and get noise-free transmission to your hifi equipment.
You can upgrade the sound with a good DAC!
True though you dilute the signal by having too many devices in the chain all connected to each other.
I just use a short signal path Oppo UDP 203 connected through the RCA analogue outputs to a very high quality transparent stereo power amplifier.
@@C--A If you use the sound card that is in. the motherboard then you will not get the best sound quality. There is also a lot of noise inside a computer. If you use a good DAC. then you get less noise and better sound!
What kind of amplifier and speakers do you have
TO be fair Now days the DAC in your phone is better than what was used in most studios until the mid 2000's
Sounds right... But it's not. The pro grade stuff in the mid eighties is shockingly good. The consumer stuff was pathetic then even in comparison to vinyl but the pro digital recorders from back then - you can hear the quality in those recordings. Of course they cost a mint...
yes, yes, yes
I have a newb question, why do so may hifi enthusiasts/ audiophiles listen to music in stereo? Right now my favorite way to listen to my music is on an old 6.2 channel Onkyo receiver. I am currently in the "research stage" getting ready to take the next step into hifi equipment like DACs and tube amps but honestly I don't have much interest in a stereo setup... I'm hoping there is some way I can recreate a 6.2 channel setup but using quality hifi equipment.
Probably because the listening material is in stereo. Changing a stereo recording to play out of all your home theater speaker at once is very wrong for pure fidelity. A stereo recording only has 2 discrete tracks. Converting it to play through multiple speakers creates a flawed reproduction.
Most music is recorded and mastered for 2 channel stereo. While it's possible to mux the audio to a surround setup this wouldn't be the ideal. The mastered stereo image would sound off. That being said, a proper stereo setup in a dedicated listening room could give the stereo image a 3D soundstage that make the speakers disappear. That's the goal!
Two good reasons:
1) five or more mediocre channels for the price of two good ones.
2) it's hard enough to set up two speakers properly, let alone a bunch more.
Thank you everyone so much that definitely helps put things in a different perspective. Obviously I have a lot to learn.
I also listen to 2.0 music through a surround sound set up but I use the All Channel Stereo setting. I have a 5.1 setup with 4 floor standing tower 4 way speakers with built in subs and 2 separate powered subs. I don’t know why but it just sounds best to me this way over just using the 2 fronts.
I use my marantz sa15s2 as transport to a musical fidelity m1dac. much, much better.
My TAD D1000 doesn’t have a courtesy DAC!
Good info, as always! Also, Paul, please write a novel called "Port Noise Complaint."
Ha!
Stole it from Guttenberg!
I am surprised that a transport system is not as important as a DAC! Anyhow, I've become aware of something more, Paul. However, if the DAC in a CD, SACD system is so important, then why does Denon design, and boast about their very effective transport? What about the very high price of those top 2 Yamaha SACD Players?
By the way, those Yamaha CD Players are a single unit. Therefore, even the second most expensive SACD Player by Yamaha is still very expensive; and it is partly because of the CD transport; or is this factor true?
Wadia......hold my beer!!! 🍺
Lets not forget the Analog stage. The last part that leaves a DAC or CD player. You can have the best DAC, but if you do a weak analog stage, all of that DAC work is wasted.
I guess I'm ass backwards. My transport $450. (Cambridge) Dac #1 $99 (Schiit). Dac #2 XtremPro DAC/Headphone amplifier. $32.99. (better than a Dragonfly Black at 1/3 the price).
What about using a UHD BLUERAY PLAYER for CDs🤔
I find that these make great transports for a good DAC
@@graxjpg ive got an external toroidal linear psu for my sony ubp-x700 it really does improve sound output i was surprised
My Sony DVD player sounds much better than my 2 previous CD players from Philips and Cambridge.
The best way I can describe it as more spacious.
@@montynorth3009 you using the dvd player with a separate dac or just its internal dac.
@@markclancy5371 Just its own internal dac.
It has stereo phonos out, also coax. digital.
Sony CD/DVD player Model No.DVP-SR760H.
High-end integrated Cd players are the way to go.
I love my older Linn Ikemi HDCD Player, but recently got the chance to try out the Chord/Quietist, and then implemented with the Linn, and that was an eyeopener. The Linn Ikemi transport is a really solid one, so ism thinking of trying some different DAC's in the near fure. Because at the end of the day, i really do love my CD collection, and could never go all digital/streaming. Cheers from Denmark
@@thomasandersen1784 Transport/DAC - all good!! I'd personally would love to get rid of that pesky spdif connection. man...the yield of good digital files vs not so good ones is..well...blahh..Cheers
@@thomasandersen1784 ruclips.net/video/aSn1g-6h1OQ/видео.htmlm45s
I was wondering if anyone can answer this. I have 2 CD changers 1 is a Harmon Kardon and the other is an Onkyo. I had to take them apart to do a good cleaning on the lens. I basically hook them up with a coax digital connection to my prepro. They both claim to have Burr Brown DACs in them but the HK decodes HDCD while the Onkyo does not. They both do however use the same optical pick up (has the same part number) but the Onkyo plays much louder than the HK does wether I use the player’s DAC by running the RCAs or the digital coax cable to my prepro. This is not to say the Onkyo sounds better but it is louder. The Onkyo is about 15 years old. The HK is older but had the pick up replaced just before I bought the Onkyo to replace it due to skipping issues. If the transport doesn’t matter how can they have much different sound characteristics while using the same optical pick up?
Paul until now i pretty much went with you all the way until today you spoke about DACs - you said that the DAC would be the most important part-now maybe i have misunderstood you that but I always thought the loudspeaker was the most important part in any system again Paul if I have misunderstood you I apologise
Your US$10 iPhone Lightning DAC dongle can beat some US$1000s audiophile DACs from the past. And your iPhone’s A14 SOC has more compute power than giant super computers from the 80s. Anyway, I’m not suggesting to use a US$10 DAC. Agree with Paul, an external DAC is the way to go but state of the art chips cost much less than US$100 and a complete DAC doesn’t need to cost more than US$200 (AKM, ESS etc.).
they'd better be worth the money... I just dropped $35000 on a dCS Rossini with Clock.... I'd say that "money"
Nobody asked.
Diminishing returns come into play at those prices. Do I get as much enjoyment out of my system as you do? Perchance... even though my soundstage may not be as large, or as absorbing, the intense pleasure I get is immeasurable. Congrats on having such a covetable system!
@@graxjpg truth be told my friend... diminishing returns start at a $100 USB stick DAC... don't fool yourself, anything that measures average and costs $500 or so will be hardly noticeable from a $115000 Vivaldi or MSB DAC... you're paying for build quality, country of origin, and other non-audibles when you climb into this realm.
@@Wombat86dkdk the internet is always asking
@@Sams911 Delightful reply mate. Nice one. Someone who spends, or can spend that kind of poke and still be a reasonable, down to earth bloke. Kudos man.
I'm down at the more bargain end of the whole deal. Though I enjoy tweaking and pissing around.
A Happy New Year too. All the best everyone.
There are plenty of opinions about the importance of DACs in many audio forums. I don’t claim any special knowledge on the subject, but a number of blind listening test have (IMHO) shown the specific DAC to not be as important as most think. However, it is acknowledged that expensive external DACs can have useful convenience features, and that post DAC circuitry and filters can color the output sound. If the output is neutral, then, it doesn’t get any better than that. Sometimes spending more money doesn’t buy better audio no matter how much we wish it were so. But it’s difficult to convince someone who does not want to be convinced; data be damned. Do your own research before buying new equipment.
Aliexpress has many great dacs under $20 CAD so yee
Easy answer, yes they are.
I recently conducted an experiment. I have a 1989 Pioneer CD player and a 1990 Pioneer amp (not really top of the range even in the day), and a pair of 2020 Magnat speakers. I used this set-up to play a 1961 recording of Doris Day and André Previn (issued on CD in 2000). I used a pair of 1965 Aures Hominum audio analysers to measure the audio qualilty, and it seemed just fine to me. When I closed my eyes, it was like being in the studio with Doris, and I felt like reaching out to try and cop a feel.
I just can't imagine anything would make the sound better.
That is the general agreement of the entire market what he says.
But I don't agree. If you focus more on the DAC sound which most manufactors want to do, then it has to be extremely expensive to build to save the sound before it is sent to the amp.
Whereas, if you can make the sound so good that the DAC only has to do a fraction of the job, you in general save a lot of money as a consumer. But yeah, it is a reality they want to keep real, it keeps everything at a certain level so you HAVE to have a good DAC and use a lot of money on it. But yea, easier said than done.
"The DAC only has to do a fraction of the job" makes no sense at all.
@@thisisnev Think about it, if you fix the problem before the DAC, then the DAC does not have to be so good, plus you create a bigger positive impact on the sound. I did a video about it on my channel. I believe most manufactors are doing this in a way that makes gear way to expensive.
@@RealHIFIHelp
What exactly is this "Problem" of which you speak? What is it doing?
HOW does this impact the DAC? The DAC is merely sampling voltage levels of a signal. What "fraction of the job" exactly?
As Nev said. It makes no sense to me at all either.
@@rationalmartian I am just saying that, all the manufactors should use more energy on fixing the source signal (streamer, CD player) so the user does not depend on having a super good DAC to save the sound.
The more you can fix the signal at the root, the bigger effect it has on the sound.
Every time, you instead move closer to the end signal, you will have to use more money on improving the signal. Simply because you are amplifying the error.
Whereas doing it right from the start, at such a high level, before the signal travels to the DAC, makes the whole production and the end product that the user gets in the store, just a lot cheaper.
The company that can do that, wins.
My friends was basically the only person in the world that did this. And because of that, his circa 100 dollars DAC beats mine, even though, my DAC is 10x better than his, and my amp is 3x better, and speakers are 5x better. Source signal means everything.
2020 has been a bad year, covid lockdowns, bushfires and floods here in Australia, can only get better. Have a happy 2021
Hi Paul what I’ve found out about CD players now is that less and less company are making cheap CD player because less people are buying stand alone CD player,so you are getting some excellent CD player with really good built inDACs from people that are bothered and at a reasonable price.thanks Tony.
Yes, its true they can be pricey. Cheapest ones start at more than their Blu-ray and DVD player counterparts that go dirt cheap. They can reach several thousand, with models from Rega, Vincent, Naim, Atoll etc. Also, there are more models of cd players in the market, than the other two formats combined. Not many new models though. Many are a few years old. Good ones from Marantz, NAD, Cambridge Audio Yamaha for the sub $500 and the $1000 category.