the whole point of the power levels were that they couldn't be trusted. That's why despite Raditz having a "higher power level" he still lost. Characters reading power levels always end up underestimating their opponents and losing because they rely on the whole number thing.
Not really. At 1:29, it shows Raditz' power level at 1500. Piccolo is shown at 3500, but that's later, and with his special beam cannon, he was apparently at 1480. So we're really comparing a character at 1480, defeating Raditz at 1500 who already had Gohan fly into his chest, was attacked by both Goku and Piccolo (the two adding up to be stronger than Raditz), and then got restrained by a Goku who himself could not do much else, so was left open for the beam from Piccolo. That's not a story about power scaling. Rather, this video is talking about a character not even flinching when punched straight in the face or otherwise attacked by another character (like Cell taking Krillin's kienzan to the neck and the kienzan just falling apart). That's the power scaling problem. No matter how creative Krillin could be, he's not even scratching Cell. Raditz is where power levels started. Later on is when those who could not keep up with the power creep became largely useless (except when the writers needed to completely and illogically do away with it all for the sake of the story, like with Roshi putting up a decent fight in the Tournament of Power in Super).
The entire point of Goku and Piccolo vs. Raditz was to show that skill and determination can overcome gaps in power, same with Goku's fight against Vegeta Then Freeza was there to show that sometimes an opponent who's stronger is just unbeatable without becoming stronger (much like a lightweight boxer fighting a heavyweight) It's not exactly the deepest philosophy, but there's a reason why I personally enjoy power levels at that stage, the only reason they suck is people trying to mathematically prove who's stronger on Twitter Or say smth like "King Vegeta had a power level of 10,000 and destroyed multiple planets meaning 10,000 is solar system level" which is blatantly untrue
@@Rationalific To be randomly fair. the DESTRUCTO disk to the neck was filler as that moves a lot more potent than you'd think. Akira himself stated it can cut most anything and would even harm the likes of beerus if he carelessly touched the blade part of the unique Ki move. so while your point still completely stands. I just want to spread the word that krillins the goat and we should all respect him for making that move up.
@@colddekstar I thought the whole point of Goku and Piccolo vs Raditz was to show 1) People could "Hide" their power levels 2) People could raise their power levels throughout a fight. So you just couldn't rely on the scouter's reading.
Dragon ball originally was supposed to be an adventure comedy with a splash of action and martial arts but he saw that people loved his action and then that’s why we got more fights,
I still feel like we should've gotten a future trunks spin off that allows dragon ball to be much darker than it is he would've the perfect main character
@@AgnesBooth-zu7tw and every single person on earth. and good buu. and king kai. and the namekians, an porunga, and shenron. and the two supreme kai...... the point is there was tons of help to beat kid buu once and for all
@AgnesBooth-zu7tw what does that have to do with him being the big bad of the red ribbon arc? He legit was the biggest threat during that arc. Goku cleaned up the red ribbon army after with no real challenge
Dragon Ball was given a shit analysis. the biggest problem of Emperor Pilaf saga is horrible rampant sexism. it's the biggest problem of the whole of DB until like Tenshinhan appeared, but it's the absolute worst in in the first saga
@@DorkN313 that's fair but than again different times had different standards. Whilst still an issue I wouldn't say toriyama made dragon ball with the idea of series it's just that, that type of humor was very popularized and in the common media
@@markmeeky2651 the point I’m making is it wasn’t a fighting based story at that point, it was a comedy adventure manga. The first arc of dragon ball was a comedy adventure so it having minimal fighting is expected (it’s dumb to judge it in that) Tha namek arc a fighting action shonen, so it having minimal to no romance is expected (it’s dumb to judge it on that)
@@joeruiz1196 I know the point you were making, it is still a stupid comparison as even then, there were still a showcase of fights to the point in which it leaned more towards it in the future.
I would say Cell never returning is only better IF the series ends there. The narrative of sacrifice was unmatched. However, Cell coming back allows Gohan to make things right. To fight against Cell with his father's will behind him. Facing the regrets and growing from his immaturity.
Yep. Goku was basically assigned the defender of the earth title but he realized two things. 1) Gohan is potentially more powerful, so if a REALLY strong villain shows up, he has a better chance of beating them than Goku and 2) He won't always be around. So having Gohan not realize what this role entails despite HATING it is a really cool arc for him to go through, and he pays the ultimate price: Losing his dad after FINALLY getting to spend some quality time with him in the time chamber. I think there are a lot of other weird things about the cell saga. Gero and the other android just feel like filler for example, and the heart virus plotline is...Pretty whatever since it barely goes anywhere. If that had gone more into a "Gohan, no one's immortal here" point then the virus would've been a lot more poignant. If it flared up during the Cell fight and made Goku weaker, maybe that could've convinced Gohan that what his dad told him wasn't just hogwash.
If Cell didn't come back it sets Gohan up for later development. He might not have been so neutered later on if he had to deal with the guilt of dragging things our with Cell, might have given a sort of darker tone going into Buu. Could have been cool
You forgot the Uranai Baba tournament... I think that's the actual conclusion to the "Red Ribbon Army Saga". It started with Goku looking for his grandpa's dragon ball and it ends with him actually seeing his grandpa again, like a reward for all the effort made and people helped along the search.
This is the best Dragon Ball critique I've ever watched! Your reasoning is sound, and I don't really have any substantial disagreements whatsoever. You stated it all very well!
at 4:22 I heard "Vegeta coming to namek and being able to take out QUEEN dodoria is because of a zenkai boost." I honest to god thought that you called dodoria a queen to reference dragon ball z abridged. But then I realized you said "Cui and dodoria.", which makes a lot more sense.
I just watched this whole series of videos by you and you really nailed some great points on this one. I agree there is a lot of low hanging fruit and I appreciate your perspective, especially when considering the multiple sagas, My problem mostly I think was while the delineation between sagas eventually of course was obvious, they didn't break them up with awesome character sagas (like a tournament) to make each saga feel new and separate, which made the entire series feel like a slog. Anyway, thank you for the content, You rock!
The gap between the cell saga and the buu saga was larger than the time difference between end of buu saga and the start of DBS. Yet somehow Gohan loses more power after the Buu saga than the 7 year gap after the Cell saga
This is wrong actually, Gohan never lost any power. Gohan at the end of cell saga is super duper buffed from his anger and his zenkai boost and cell is actively trying to let gohan reach his full potential for a stronger fight, at the start of buu saga gohan remains somewhat strong as he still fights weaklings here and there, but still weaker than perfect cell. At the end of buu saga Gohan has unlocked his secret potential and has become weaker than kid buu but stronger than super buu, at the start of super. Gohan remains at the exact same potential level, but hasn't trained at all since his fight with super buu because of his stupid lame family so he lacks the discipline required to power up to super saiyan (which after his fight with frieza he decides isn't the form for him, but at this point in the timeline super saiyan gohan is still stronger than gohan while he's working towards his beast form). which is why he is weaker than ginyu boosted tagoma. Had he kept up his training he would be able to power up and contend with final form freiza, but still get stomped by golden freiza if he wasn't able to outlast the amount of time frieza takes to keep his golden form going (which is certainly plausible because frieza is an egomaniac and loves to monologue) The point being: Gohan never gets weaker, he just doesn't train, so anywhere between end of cell saga and the start of Dragon Ball Super: Super Hero he is fighting at a fraction of his true power.
Dragon Ball is the best. I actually loved when it wasn't just about fighting but also problem solving. The red ribbon saga was awesome. I loved that I had a lot of bosses cause growing up with it is how I felt: a kid against a bunch of adults. I mean, dragon ball z didn't even exist so there was nothing to compare it to. There was nothing to expect either. Everything was new.
I have such insane respect for this video. Your critiques are well explained, level-headed, focused, and reasoned. Even when I don't agree I fully understand why you came to that conclusion and the value of that perspective. So often when someone tries to make criticism of Dragon Ball they use only one source where you talk about the manga, anime, and movies and the merits and downfalls of each. Maybe the best critique of Dragon Ball out there, fantastic work.
my least favourite arc in the series is the Goku Black arc, the entire arc is just plotholes and retcons and the ending was one of the worst conclusions ive ever seen
Isn't bad to bring Zeno to solve the problem by erasing a whole timeline, and by proxy, eliminating trunks struggle, what did he fight for?!?. All those deaths for nothing. Is like saying goku defeats frieza but the last soldier blows up the every single planet Now we need to time travel to get the dragonballs to fix the situation. In short what's the whole point for Zeno intervention.
@BoOb-yd4dk Right lest apply that reasoning to kids and toodlers media Since they are for kids they don't need to bother for a good narrative and a good massage Even if it's a cartoon it's has to put effort on its content.. Or do you buy cars just cause and don't bother to care if they last or not. Because I do care of the quality of the services or products I purchase.
My biggest issue with dragon ball in super particular is how buu kept falling. asleep before every single major fight so we never got to see him compared to everyone else i really wanted to see him in tournament of power
I agree with pretty much all of your points about Z, but disagree massively with your points on OG. I think the worldwide adventure aspect needed to stick around. It kept Dragon Ball about the Dragon Balls. I also think the tournaments were great nonstop action arcs to sit between the adventure arcs. They gave the series a kind of mass appeal that it lost at later points. If you like adventure, you've got it. If you like action, you've got that too. The Red Ribbon Army made for great adventure arc villains, in that they posed a legitimate threat not to Goku himself, but to the Dragon Balls, which were the crux of the narrative. They were like Indiana Jones villains, in that they were rival treasure hunters as opposed to mere combatants.
@ClashBluelight And after the 23rd world tournament The never got any story like the previous arch were we have factions but no major villains Like King Piccolo and it shows that people really liked more the combats over the adventure aspects I agree with you into that regard. My only disagreement with yuor opinion, is if the formulas worked why change it and stuck it with just a big villain fight. Like DBZ did.
@@AgnesBooth-zu7tw They changed so massively for several reasons. For one, Toriyama thought the last tournament should be the one where Goku becomes champion. Honestly, that's a respectable ending point. He even wanted to end the story there, but Jump wouldn't let him. Also, new formats are always interesting, especially when in Dragon Ball. Just as before with the tournament arc, the single villain doomsday saga took shonen by storm. It was a second coming of sorts for Dragon Ball. Lastly, there was substantial editor pressure to change things up in a major way, as the leadership at Jump had recently changed, and they wanted something new. So there were plenty of reasons besides a lack of success for moving away from the adventure/tournament format. If the format really had died, then we wouldn't still be seeing tournament arcs in every new anime today.
@ClashBluelight Thank you for the reply, yes they changed so much stuff and the story had exterior influence that end up changing the story process I appreciate your elaborate explanation and I agree with he point you brought up. Good day.
Power levels were always looked at as inefficient- I don’t believe it was ever written to go past the Namek Saga. In most of every instance of power level being a factor in the manga and anime it’s shown as being faulty or incorrect. Narratively power levels were meant to be the worst/incorrect form of measurement and characters constantly abused that fact because a majority of the enemies looked at power levels and saw it as the end all be all & underestimated who they would perceive as “weak” because their little scouter toys said so. It’s always and consistently shown that sensing the strength of an opponent is more efficient and accurate than using a scouter and seeing power level, frieza even has a weakness of not being able to properly sense ki because he relies on seeing power levels from scouters too much (The scene I’m referring to is when goku is underwater and he shoots a ki blast to fool frieza, which if frieza did know how to properly sense ki it wouldn’t have fooled him, but also another scene where he shot ki beams at a cloud goku was in randomly because he couldn’t sense ki properly) Keep in mind that this is namek saga Frieza. The point of power levels is to show that your strength is beyond statistical values and that focusing on said values not only hinders you but leads to consequences as a fighter. (Which is why vegeta quickly ditched his scouter as he understood this after fighting the Z-Fighters)
Now that you explain it, I realize every DBZ villain was defeated because of reliance on power levels, up until Goku went ssj. Although King Cold could be considered the final victim of that system.
The big problem I have is that during timeskips of literal years, power levels barely change even after constant training, and then a trip to the Hyperbolic time chamber they reach the next level.
Just watched “New Hope” and this recap and the fan made should go hand in hand. Love how you break down the power system and talk about how much it sidelines other “main” characters
I think you’re right on the pl introduction. I think that’s the real reason they pretty quickly pulled scouters from regular use to the more vague “sensing opponents energy”. 1 thing I will say scouters did help amplify though is the impact of intentionally masking 1s energy level has. Definitely wouldn’t have stopped the power creep; it’s actually been ages since they really even referred to a fighters actual power number. They just say stuff like “he’s stronger than his universe’s god of destruction” and what not.
I actually agree with most of these besides Cell shouldn’t of returned and Goku coming back in Buu saga. The Cell saga wanted to shift the attention away from Goku so I think him being the noble sacrifice and the arc ending wouldn’t be satisfying. It also wasn’t just Goku who beat Buu he threw the final attack but you can say Vegeta and Hercule had a bigger impact on that ending.
i actually like the cell coming back partition of the cell saga, because it's the first time in the series a major mechanic that was exclusively in the hands of the saiyans, was used against them: the zenkai boost. i also liked the resurrection of F (movie) because of the same reason. the dragon balls were used against them.
27:30 think you misunderstood the 21st tenkaiichi budikai and what it Stand for. This was the transitional arc the end of og series and the start of “z”. The return to the tournament plus roshi not participating in it symbolized Goku krillen tien and Yamacha all becoming respected martial artists who can stand on thier own with them all fundamentally surpassing roshi. This effectively ended the longest running theme up to this point in time. Then you also have the aging of Goku both physically and mentally further symbolizing this change into this new era. U mentioned how it bring anything new that’s because the arc was meant to ends the all points currently going on in order to set up news 1s that we will later see in the franchise. To your last point the power scaling “problems” we already told from the get go that’s Goku and piccolo rematch was our main focus this arc and their respective fights was to show how us the viewers how both grown up to this point.
Emperor Pilaf saga was supposed to be Dragon Ball. It was supposed to be a "one shot", a "gag manga". That's why it feels so different than the rest of the series.
People look at this, as hatred. Tune loved DB enough to critique it. Thats as real as it gets. Nothing is perfect & nothing is exempt from being critiqued.😂
My major problem with his critic is og dragon ball. I'm sorry it's almost hard to watch since the majority of his critiques felt so unfair towards og. He kept comparing dragon ball to dragon ball z as his major problems when in reality no matter how you look at it, it's completely og dragon ball hands as toriyama wouldn't have been able predict where the series was heading during the beginning of og dragon ball. It make this critiques feel so opinionated as if it's only an issue because it was like dragon ball z that he knows and love when og existed before Z and should be judged separately. That's like comparing a game and it's sequel and calling the og game bad, because the sequel has a some new features or better graphics. It's pretty unfair
Dragonball is flawless....dbz has so many anime issues like padding and focusing on the wrong things...the characters don't feel real they feel like action figures mostly used to make goku look good and make everyone waste time and wait for him as they lose...
arcs that had the biggest problem for each series overall in my opinion: >OG in general: Comedy, i think its not funny but thats just my opinion >Saiyan Saga: power levels >Goku Black: Ending, the arc has problems but the ending is bad in both versions what is the point of having the future trunks timeline be destroyed like you want the heroes to lose ok have future trunks stay and we see some character writing for once of him getting over his failure but his reaction in both versions was very weak and immidiately took the offer to join another timeline where he existed instead of at least using the timeline cell came from (wich is still bad but its a callback to z and it doesnt have 2 trunks and 2 mai in a universe so its slightly better) had this or them retreating and having beerus fight zamasu (who was coming in un7 at the time) would have made this arc an all time great for db >Black Star Dragons: the mini bosses/villains lacked a lot, i am always here for a space journey or a journey in general but the bad guys they fought were lacklaster most of the time
13:24 ok you lost me there... so your complaint about Trunk's strength and comparing him to the other fighter's level... but weren't you complaining about the introduction of power level in the saiyan saga for this same reason??? trying to compare fighters based on their power level rather than on the techniques and the element of surprise and not really knowing who would win in the end ???
The introduction of power levels is why Trunks’s strength in that arc is a problem. It doesn’t really make sense with the rules the series set for itself
@pupulauls so basically the series cant undo the power level shenannigans even if it hasnt beem mentioned in a while? its all about transformations and multipliers that has gone crazy. Power level has not been mentioned in a while. Its transformations now with crazy multipliers. Now, are transformations the only thing that can boost your "power level"? not really, there's rage boost and techniques that can overcome an opponent with higher power.
imo ssj3 doesn't do anything....at all. Yeah its bad ass and cool but its a stamina drainer. Its barely even used. Don't get me wrong love the entire series but Ssj3 is almost a pointless transformation. I also think power levels stopped meaning anything after the cell saga. Gohan going ssj2 against cell is my favorite thing in all of DB. (And beast is incredible just short lived). Just after cell saga power levels where all over the place esp in Super. My gosh super..is just weird with power levels on top of the fact that they keep raising beerus' power level for like no reason (granted I guess no one has fought him since battle of gods).
@@Thevikingninja117 people today making the theory the one goku and gotanks used. is not a mastered form. I mean the buffy form slows you down. so it should make sense the SSJ3 version we all know is just another grade sitting next to a new form that goku never did tried out. because the whole god ki thing. speaking of that. I think they did say Beerus is just one of those types that keeps growing in power per minute thing. also goku and vegeta are still new to god ki. they are still basically children with it. they're more used to ki. if they go back and forth with ki and god ki. I sure they would jump real fast. and on top of the fact they rely on there forms to much to win fights.
You say you dont like that Goku came back in the Buu saga, but then you say Gohan isn't main character worthy. That's the exact reason why Goku was brought back. Because readers thought Gohan was boring and not interesting.
In the anime's Goku Black saga it was mentioned that F. Trunks had gone through the same ritual by the old kami as Gohan in the Buu saga to unlock their true power, so that form is most probably his Mystic/Ultimate form, like how Gohan, only he seems to be using differently.
I think what happened with trunks is the same with Gohan, how hybrids get huge powerups based on their emotions, which is why even though super saiyan in unlocked by rage/training, but it especially effects hybrids.
Trunks transformation in dbs is great in terms of emotions and stuff. His rage really makes sense. The problem really is how much power he gains. He jumps from SSJ2 level to around SSB. Like, even Gohan doesn't power up that much. A cool thing would have been if Vegeta refused to go to the future and instead insisted on training Trunks so that he could protect his own world by himself. It fits the character and Goku would have been fine with that considering he did the same in the Buu saga. Vegeta had to learn SSG, and not just get it like Goku so he could have taught Trunks like in the HTC, thinking the huge power gap between SSJ2 and SSG would be enough. During that day of training, Black could still come to this timeline, like the anime, and Goku fights him, since he's the only one here. And then later, Trunks gets mad and gets a power up and why not a new form but starting from SSG. It would have been so much better, we would see Vegeta care for Trunks, we would have learned how Vegeta got SSG in the first place. Trunks rage would have amplified by the powerless despite intense training feeling. And it would grant the arc overall better consistency. Also another problem I see with the saga is that Black is actually more interesting than Zamasu, including fused Zamasu. He's not only about his zero mortal plans, he's obsessed with getting stronger, and the sayian biology.
Its funny how despite never talking about this to myself or thinking about it i knew instantly he was talking about zenkai boosts being what they introduced/explained that was bad
If I remember correctly, particularly the last Dragonball saga, and then each subsequent saga, was supposed to be the last, which is what caused so much inconsistency. If you look at each saga as the end of the series, everything makes a lot more sense and feels more wrapped up.
Not as much of a reload as it is giving what some people want. There are people who prefer long videos, and it gives people to watch 4 videos in one place
One thing to me in Super is in the Goku Black arc. I personally think it would have been nice if they brought back in many of the characters from the original being survivors hiding out in underground shelters.......Suno and Eighter, Upa and Bora, Nam, Ranfan, Bacteria, LAUNCH and even Crane Hermit.
13:36 okay… you were fine up to this part, which compare to other creators is God tier recap 😂 but i digress. he basically killed zamasu because of spirit bomb logic but his sword was the catalyst vs two hands held straight up. goku also addresses this in the anime
You're one of the few db youtubers I have seen try to fairly criticize each series. And I think that's good. You're not picking favorites you're covering each thing. It may not always be perfect agree with some things disaree with others but I get the idea.
My biggest issue with Super was, is, and always will be, the fact that it has no stakes for the main cast. We know it takes place before the epilogue chapter of Z, and therefore, anyone alive in that chapter cannot die permanently. So no matter what, everytime anyone is in danger, you just whip out your final chapter, see if they show up, and know that even if they die, they'll be back. Its the reason that, for all its flaws, GT at least had something going for it. Characters could change permanently, or even die permanently, and that was good, it was a tension not felt since the manga/anime was still in weekly puplication, and is something Super can never regain. Daima is going much the same way, being a prequal to Super even, still taking place before the end of Z. Its one of the reasons I never watched Super. That, and the transformations are way less exciting than SS4, visually at least
8:25 Errr Goku didn't defeat Buu alone. If it had been just him, he would have been screwed. He completely failed to convince the public to share their enegry, as did Vegeta, and it took Mr. Satan stepping in to convince them that finally did the trick. Without Mr. Satan and the wish to restore his energy, Goku, and by extention, the entire universe would have lost.
The biggest problem with the Cell and Buu Saga's is the huge leaps the Saiyans took which sidelined the classic characters that we knew and loved from OG DB. They also dropped the format that mad classic DB so great. Goku gets a new form of training and shows how strong he's become, so the humans do it after. Training with Roshi, climbing Korrin tower, Training under Kami, Tien, Krillin and Yamcha all follwed in Goku's footsteps, either between arcs or during the next arc of the story. Then we get to the Cell arc and the hyperbolic time chamber. Tien's goal of beating Goku is just abandoned and he refuses to even try the chamber because he doesn't think he'll be the one to defeat Cell. Never mind the fact that he can use it to be the best version of himself and that should have motivated him. and I guess they just forgot to mention it to Yamcha and Krillin? The Saiyan saga waiting for Goku was pure gold. Freeza saga was amazing but I would have preferred if Krillin and Gohan had been able to dispatch a few more Freeza soldiers and maybe once they got their power unlocked by Guru they could have taken out Guildo on their own w/out Vegeta's help. Cell had an amazing story and at least everyone did some stuff and participated in someway. Buu made every non saiyan an after thought and really shouldn't have.
7:42 gohan not serving as a decent protagonist is bc he was written that way. Granted, in the the beginning of the saiyan saga, he was afraid to fight but up until the cell saga, gohan was always down to throw hands. Imo, although the cell saga was wen we got one of gohan’s most iconic moments, it was also the saga that ruined him.
Still think it’s funny that Toriyama was influenced heavily by kinnikuman but didn’t learn that power levels don’t work after kinnikuman dropped it in the arc it was introduced it
i know this is a compilation video of other videos you’ve made and i haven’t seen the originals but curious if 14:42 is where u mean to end the goku black critic. it feels very abrupt and i’m shocked u didn’t bring up the zeno button or the convoluted solution for future trunks from Whis. also just my opinion and i promise it’s meant to be constructive next time maybe try to do each series chronologically in these big combo videos going from super to OG DB felt jarring. plus it would make the title seem more accurate and help with presentation much love keep going.
from what I'm getting at. he's bring up the impact of each saga for the series as a whole. rather the plot holes in them. like the power creep example he bring up. it changed the series as a whole. rather tell a story that's meant to be told. the dragon orbs and dragons. they put to much in action rather given answers about the orbs and mostly about the dragons. like where do they come from? the main question that never been straight up answered.
14:29 to be fair, in the manga, Goku never actually fought Goku Black one on one before Black fused with Zamasu so we actually don’t know how manga Goku would’ve faired against Goku Black without perfected SSB
You're right about power levels. This has been a cancer for years, right up until Hit had that time skip thing. The writers should take more of this. People LOVED those fights with Hit. Because it was like OG DB.
I do wonder how the Buu Saga would've played out if Goku and Vegeta stayed dead permanently, Vegeta actually sacrificing himself for good would've been really impactful
3:07 legit man if you consider that vegeta with 18,000 was already strong enough to level a planet. And frieza first form sits at over 500k and can destroy a planet with 1 finger and then we get to like a million then several million. The power creep is nuts
I see a lot of people saying that this is hating on the series. First off, why watch if you feel that way? Secondly and more importantly it’s not a crime to have criticism of something you love. Guess what, even the creator of this series had things he wanted to change after the fact. So why can’t a fan have a valid critique?
To answer your question on trunks form its his version of ultimate. Gohan's draws twards human side while trunks version is one he had to unlock himself and didn't find out until that fight. Both characters get this form by working with the kais meaning if goku stayed with king kai his would have been gold and red since that is how king kai trains plus his god ki was red not Blue meaning he is always hiding rage with comedy
Honestly I think the Buu saga would be fine if we skipped everything with Super Buu. Majin Buu had a really good arc and added a lot of in my opinion, good story direction (other than SSJ3 and Goku stating he could have beaten Majin Buu but didn't because 'he wanted the kids to have a shot') but I also think Kid Buu was a great section. We get iconic character moments such as Vegeta finally admitting Goku's strength, the Spirit Bomb ACTUALLY achieving something, Mr. Satan's character growth to its current point, and a villain that was just evil for the sake of being evil, no ulterior motives attached. Everything that feels sour to me is everything that happens between those moments. Piccolo being reduced to baby sitter, Gotenks being nothing but a gag character, Gohan once more getting great power only to immediately get shafted, and Vegeta's sacrifice being entirely undermined. I feel like there could have been a way better story for the Super Buu section to connect Majin Buu and Kid Buu.
Just because elder kai knows what a super saiyan 4 is, still doesnt undermine the fact that we dont know what its gonna look like the first time around. The same critique can literally be applied to the regular super saiyan. It was foreshadowed the whole saga, we knew goku would become a super saiyan.
The tournament of power should’ve been a more traditional anime tournament style. Like if you’re going to have a huge team up of fighters from power houses like Goku and Vegeta to someone as weak as master Roshi make it make sense. Theres bo logical reason that the humans shouldn’t have been one shot so quickly. If they had differnt challenges like maybe characters having to capture something or whoever hits the most targets, or escaping a maze or impress a judge with a specific technique or be creative beyond just the initial battle Royal kick out the enemy thing it would be better. Because if you’re going to add tons of humans and weaker characters give them a way to shine that makes sense. I mean what was the point of the rules if it just ended up as a one on one between goku and Jiren the main enemy just like every arc. Like none of the kicking people out the arena or anything mattered at all really .
I get why they brought Frieza back and super due to him having history with the saiyans though I feel like cell not coming back was a missed opportunity. They could have maybe even have revived Radditz and had him come back as good. That probably would have created some distrust between Vegeta and him as to whom The better Uncle figure is to Gohan all while Piccolo smiles off in the corner knowing he is full good and well the better of the three.
Toriyama kind of pushed himself into the corner with the end of Cell saga, Goku sacrifice was a big deal, Gohan taking up the mantle paved the way for the future and Vegeta's role in it was left unresolved. That's why Buu saga was necessary, but due to studio interference and the problems he faced in writing Gohan as the main lead it didn't finish in a satisfying way. Majin Vegeta's arc is one of the best in the series, I don't know if it could have worked without Goku's ressurection, but that's the thing though, Vegeta's and Gohan's arc resolutions were mutually exclusive. In the end, though flawed, Buu saga was an epilogue to DB and it should have stayed that way. What happens after that with DBS, well, it's a lot of spectacle, but for character arcs, it doesn't amount to much, it's trivial, contrived and it keeps treading the paths that were already paved. New transformations, new power levels, threats, it's all just meaningless.
While I agree with you on the Z problems I wholeheartedly disagree on everything you said on the original. You probably started with Z and not with the OG and it shows. I grew up with the OG and missed the light-heartedness and smaller adventures in Z. It was perfectly raising the stakes from saga to saga and ended on the positive note of goku not killing piccolo and finally winning the tournament.
Dude don't make assumptions of someone and then try to use them as counter arguments, like saying, you don't understand or you don't know. Use real arguments fam.
@@AgnesBooth-zu7twwell, but that's his main complaint here. It doesn't have as many fights and isn't as full of tension as Z. And that's exactly what it sets out to be. It's a kid on a whimsical journey and toriyama himself admittedly needed especially in the first arc his time to find his footing. However, the stakes are much lower, there's more emphasis on comedy and apart from OG piccolo there's not really a big baddy but on purpose. It's about the small adventures and scale and that's exactly what he's criticizing. He's criticizing it for what it exactly wants to be and I do believe Goku's character arc is better here than anybody's in Z. And because he's criticizing it for what it is and isn't yet in Z it's a very fair assessment that he started with Z and not with the OG Manga/ Anime.
I’m really hoping a bunch of people collaborate to rewrite all of DBZ and make a fan manga. Toriyama already stated that all the stuff in DBZ wasn’t planned out, so it’d be cool to see how it would play out without all the issues like “power levels”
yeah smarts and skills should also matter in fights. the whole power level thing is the same issue with the whole "brute power" thing. hell that was even talked about in DB and Z there and there once in awhile. dc and marvel ironically enough knows everything matters in a fight not just energy and brute power all the time.
@@rickydiscord7671 Yet marvel and Dc devolve in to power scaling just as easy (looking at you xmen power leveling like pokemon and the justice unlimited comics when superman is involved.)
@@vonshroom2068 that's what I just said. "not just energy and brute power all the time." but yeah there some characters just don't give a damn about skill or power scaling. just like Death Battle sometimes.
@@rickydiscord7671 I just miss the times when writers would think around issues of brains vs brawn. Magic has the same issues in that regards because of poor forward planning.
@@vonshroom2068 I soo agree. I pointed out somewhere. "if a person's power level is 1000 and has a hard body vs a person is just a power level of 2000. who would you think well win?" and most would say "well the highest power level daaah!" than I would ask "how?" than boom no answer. 70% of the time.
Great video but one critique. Power levels were meant to mean nothing and while everyone loves power scaling, they were made useless in the freeza saga. Even Vegeta realized this when he destroyed his scouter on Namek. The reason the Freeza Force used scouters is because they never trained, they assumed that’s what the average is and thats where you were placed in the caste system of the empire. Gokus level was so low yet he is top fighter in his universe. Tien was able to push back Cell with his skill. Roshi vs Jiren. The fanbase is what made power levels seem important. Whats the Gods power level if their ki cant even be sensed
![Noob To Max With DRAGON REWORK In Blox Fruits [FULL MOVIE]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/LnBMOinoOvA/mqdefault.jpg)
![How Every Saiyan Unlocked Super Saiyan [Full Story]](/img/1.gif)
25 years later and I still have no idea why my Vegeta toy had a gun
Bro he uses the Galick gun 😂
@@backtoyougo he means an actual gun lol
@GoranAkuto yeah man the Galick Gun gun. Why focus ki when you can pull a trigger
Galick glock 😂
@@GoranAkuto remember he may be out of ki but he's not out of options
the whole point of the power levels were that they couldn't be trusted. That's why despite Raditz having a "higher power level" he still lost. Characters reading power levels always end up underestimating their opponents and losing because they rely on the whole number thing.
Not really. At 1:29, it shows Raditz' power level at 1500. Piccolo is shown at 3500, but that's later, and with his special beam cannon, he was apparently at 1480. So we're really comparing a character at 1480, defeating Raditz at 1500 who already had Gohan fly into his chest, was attacked by both Goku and Piccolo (the two adding up to be stronger than Raditz), and then got restrained by a Goku who himself could not do much else, so was left open for the beam from Piccolo. That's not a story about power scaling. Rather, this video is talking about a character not even flinching when punched straight in the face or otherwise attacked by another character (like Cell taking Krillin's kienzan to the neck and the kienzan just falling apart). That's the power scaling problem. No matter how creative Krillin could be, he's not even scratching Cell. Raditz is where power levels started. Later on is when those who could not keep up with the power creep became largely useless (except when the writers needed to completely and illogically do away with it all for the sake of the story, like with Roshi putting up a decent fight in the Tournament of Power in Super).
The entire point of Goku and Piccolo vs. Raditz was to show that skill and determination can overcome gaps in power, same with Goku's fight against Vegeta
Then Freeza was there to show that sometimes an opponent who's stronger is just unbeatable without becoming stronger (much like a lightweight boxer fighting a heavyweight)
It's not exactly the deepest philosophy, but there's a reason why I personally enjoy power levels at that stage, the only reason they suck is people trying to mathematically prove who's stronger on Twitter
Or say smth like "King Vegeta had a power level of 10,000 and destroyed multiple planets meaning 10,000 is solar system level" which is blatantly untrue
@@Rationalific To be randomly fair.
the DESTRUCTO disk to the neck was filler as that moves a lot more potent than you'd think.
Akira himself stated it can cut most anything and would even harm the likes of beerus if he carelessly touched the blade part of the unique Ki move.
so while your point still completely stands. I just want to spread the word that krillins the goat and we should all respect him for making that move up.
@@vixenxia2475 Hehe. Fair enough with that specific example. 😄
@@colddekstar I thought the whole point of Goku and Piccolo vs Raditz was to show 1) People could "Hide" their power levels 2) People could raise their power levels throughout a fight. So you just couldn't rely on the scouter's reading.
Dragon ball originally was supposed to be an adventure comedy with a splash of action and martial arts but he saw that people loved his action and then that’s why we got more fights,
Yeah..comparing OG Dragon Ball to the ToP is kind of wild
@Th1sIsMyLegacy tbf you start seeing the roots of what made the series super popular relatively early in the story
Yet you people still want to use Roshi to scale the entire series from when it was still a gag manga. Can’t have it both ways.
I still feel like we should've gotten a future trunks spin off that allows dragon ball to be much darker than it is he would've the perfect main character
@@thatguy-lo3cnbesides the andriods, babidis arrival, and goku black, trunks timeline has been peaceful
Saying Goku “beat buu alone with a spirit bomb” is a pretty glaring oxymoron
He got vegeta, Mr Satan and Dende help
For that.
@@AgnesBooth-zu7tw and every single person on earth. and good buu. and king kai. and the namekians, an porunga, and shenron. and the two supreme kai......
the point is there was tons of help to beat kid buu once and for all
"spirit bomb" lmao
@@matheus91_ my bad brother! it’s the genkidama! 🥷🏻🥷🏻🥷🏻🎌🎌🎌
Should have been Gohan defeating Buu
Tao Pai Pai was literally the big bad of the Red Ribbon Arc. He had a build up and almost killed Goku.
He had a power of 120.
@AgnesBooth-zu7tw what does that have to do with him being the big bad of the red ribbon arc? He legit was the biggest threat during that arc. Goku cleaned up the red ribbon army after with no real challenge
@@AgnesBooth-zu7twOozaru Goku had a power level of 100 so Tao could’ve killed a great ape
@@BigHuskyGGthat doesn’t mean he was the main antagonist
dragon ball was not given a fair analysis, you can’t judge it off of what you know it’s gonna become, you gotta judge it on its own
Dragon Ball was given a shit analysis. the biggest problem of Emperor Pilaf saga is horrible rampant sexism. it's the biggest problem of the whole of DB until like Tenshinhan appeared, but it's the absolute worst in in the first saga
@DorkN313 Its only a problem if you care
@@DorkN313who cares about sexism, grow up
@@DorkN313 that's fair but than again different times had different standards. Whilst still an issue I wouldn't say toriyama made dragon ball with the idea of series it's just that, that type of humor was very popularized and in the common media
@@anthonyontvtold somebody else to grow up after saying who cares about sexism 💀
“My problem with the first saga is there isn’t enough action”
Yeah dude, my problem with the namek saga is the romantic relationships aren’t explored
😂😂😂
Stupid comparison but okay.
@@markmeeky2651 the point I’m making is it wasn’t a fighting based story at that point, it was a comedy adventure manga.
The first arc of dragon ball was a comedy adventure so it having minimal fighting is expected (it’s dumb to judge it in that)
Tha namek arc a fighting action shonen, so it having minimal to no romance is expected (it’s dumb to judge it on that)
@@joeruiz1196 I know the point you were making, it is still a stupid comparison as even then, there were still a showcase of fights to the point in which it leaned more towards it in the future.
I would say Cell never returning is only better IF the series ends there. The narrative of sacrifice was unmatched. However, Cell coming back allows Gohan to make things right. To fight against Cell with his father's will behind him. Facing the regrets and growing from his immaturity.
To to mention goku still saved the whole planet
Yep. Goku was basically assigned the defender of the earth title but he realized two things. 1) Gohan is potentially more powerful, so if a REALLY strong villain shows up, he has a better chance of beating them than Goku
and 2) He won't always be around. So having Gohan not realize what this role entails despite HATING it is a really cool arc for him to go through, and he pays the ultimate price: Losing his dad after FINALLY getting to spend some quality time with him in the time chamber.
I think there are a lot of other weird things about the cell saga. Gero and the other android just feel like filler for example, and the heart virus plotline is...Pretty whatever since it barely goes anywhere. If that had gone more into a "Gohan, no one's immortal here" point then the virus would've been a lot more poignant. If it flared up during the Cell fight and made Goku weaker, maybe that could've convinced Gohan that what his dad told him wasn't just hogwash.
If Cell didn't come back it sets Gohan up for later development. He might not have been so neutered later on if he had to deal with the guilt of dragging things our with Cell, might have given a sort of darker tone going into Buu. Could have been cool
Need perfect cell back instead Freiza lol
This sounds like a horrible fucking idea.
You forgot the Uranai Baba tournament...
I think that's the actual conclusion to the "Red Ribbon Army Saga". It started with Goku looking for his grandpa's dragon ball and it ends with him actually seeing his grandpa again, like a reward for all the effort made and people helped along the search.
I respect the fact that you’re not just calling the Dragon Ball franchise “perfect”. All the critics are valid
Critiques.
Spelling is valid
Goku vs. Freiza was peak DBZ.
Love you for acknowledging this.
100% accurate, exactly what i think as well.
love how clear and concise your dialogue is man
This is the best Dragon Ball critique I've ever watched! Your reasoning is sound, and I don't really have any substantial disagreements whatsoever. You stated it all very well!
Yeah I subbed because of this video.
@@ThunderChunky101 Me, too.👍
So...for you, the biggest problem OG Dragon Ball have is ...that USA people got it after Z ?
at 4:22 I heard "Vegeta coming to namek and being able to take out QUEEN dodoria is because of a zenkai boost." I honest to god thought that you called dodoria a queen to reference dragon ball z abridged. But then I realized you said "Cui and dodoria.", which makes a lot more sense.
Omg I heard that too lol
good points man and great vid! keep ‘em coming
I just watched this whole series of videos by you and you really nailed some great points on this one. I agree there is a lot of low hanging fruit and I appreciate your perspective, especially when considering the multiple sagas, My problem mostly I think was while the delineation between sagas eventually of course was obvious, they didn't break them up with awesome character sagas (like a tournament) to make each saga feel new and separate, which made the entire series feel like a slog. Anyway, thank you for the content, You rock!
The first saga of dragon ball is amazing. What are you smoking.
Agreed, that is such an L take for any DB fan to have. First saga is absolutely magical
He never said it was bad he just simply had to pick a problem for each saga and decided to choose that one
@@notfunny1384 He did not type out it was bad, but video creator said it was boring, and that's on what we don't agree
The gap between the cell saga and the buu saga was larger than the time difference between end of buu saga and the start of DBS. Yet somehow Gohan loses more power after the Buu saga than the 7 year gap after the Cell saga
This is wrong actually, Gohan never lost any power. Gohan at the end of cell saga is super duper buffed from his anger and his zenkai boost and cell is actively trying to let gohan reach his full potential for a stronger fight, at the start of buu saga gohan remains somewhat strong as he still fights weaklings here and there, but still weaker than perfect cell. At the end of buu saga Gohan has unlocked his secret potential and has become weaker than kid buu but stronger than super buu, at the start of super. Gohan remains at the exact same potential level, but hasn't trained at all since his fight with super buu because of his stupid lame family so he lacks the discipline required to power up to super saiyan (which after his fight with frieza he decides isn't the form for him, but at this point in the timeline super saiyan gohan is still stronger than gohan while he's working towards his beast form). which is why he is weaker than ginyu boosted tagoma. Had he kept up his training he would be able to power up and contend with final form freiza, but still get stomped by golden freiza if he wasn't able to outlast the amount of time frieza takes to keep his golden form going (which is certainly plausible because frieza is an egomaniac and loves to monologue) The point being: Gohan never gets weaker, he just doesn't train, so anywhere between end of cell saga and the start of Dragon Ball Super: Super Hero he is fighting at a fraction of his true power.
Dragon Ball is the best. I actually loved when it wasn't just about fighting but also problem solving. The red ribbon saga was awesome. I loved that I had a lot of bosses cause growing up with it is how I felt: a kid against a bunch of adults. I mean, dragon ball z didn't even exist so there was nothing to compare it to. There was nothing to expect either. Everything was new.
I have such insane respect for this video. Your critiques are well explained, level-headed, focused, and reasoned. Even when I don't agree I fully understand why you came to that conclusion and the value of that perspective. So often when someone tries to make criticism of Dragon Ball they use only one source where you talk about the manga, anime, and movies and the merits and downfalls of each. Maybe the best critique of Dragon Ball out there, fantastic work.
my least favourite arc in the series is the Goku Black arc, the entire arc is just plotholes and retcons and the ending was one of the worst conclusions ive ever seen
Like what?
Isn't bad to bring Zeno to solve the problem by erasing a whole timeline, and by proxy, eliminating trunks struggle, what did he fight for?!?.
All those deaths for nothing.
Is like saying goku defeats frieza but the last soldier blows up the every single planet
Now we need to time travel to get the dragonballs to fix the situation.
In short what's the whole point for Zeno intervention.
@@AgnesBooth-zu7twit’s a cartoon
@BoOb-yd4dk
Right lest apply that reasoning to kids and toodlers media
Since they are for kids they don't need to bother for a good narrative and a good massage
Even if it's a cartoon it's has to put effort on its content..
Or do you buy cars just cause and don't bother to care if they last or not.
Because I do care of the quality of the services or products I purchase.
Just because you are right doesn't mean you can hurt me this way lmao
So many hate comments eesh. Cut this guy some slack, he is just sharing his opinions, and honestly? It's a good video, keep it up :)
I'm just upset he effectively skipped the entire 22nd WT. Best arc of the whole story and it's just lumped in with DKP, sad to see.
I don't know why people are complaining, I agree with a lot of his takes about power levels, zenkai boost, and his takes about Super and GT.
My biggest issue with dragon ball in super particular is how buu kept falling. asleep before every single major fight so we never got to see him compared to everyone else i really wanted to see him in tournament of power
I agree with pretty much all of your points about Z, but disagree massively with your points on OG. I think the worldwide adventure aspect needed to stick around. It kept Dragon Ball about the Dragon Balls. I also think the tournaments were great nonstop action arcs to sit between the adventure arcs. They gave the series a kind of mass appeal that it lost at later points. If you like adventure, you've got it. If you like action, you've got that too. The Red Ribbon Army made for great adventure arc villains, in that they posed a legitimate threat not to Goku himself, but to the Dragon Balls, which were the crux of the narrative. They were like Indiana Jones villains, in that they were rival treasure hunters as opposed to mere combatants.
@ClashBluelight
And after the 23rd world tournament
The never got any story like the previous arch were we have factions but no major villains
Like King Piccolo
and it shows that people really liked more the combats over the adventure aspects
I agree with you into that regard.
My only disagreement with yuor opinion, is if the formulas worked why change it and stuck it with just a big villain fight.
Like DBZ did.
@@AgnesBooth-zu7tw They changed so massively for several reasons. For one, Toriyama thought the last tournament should be the one where Goku becomes champion. Honestly, that's a respectable ending point. He even wanted to end the story there, but Jump wouldn't let him. Also, new formats are always interesting, especially when in Dragon Ball. Just as before with the tournament arc, the single villain doomsday saga took shonen by storm. It was a second coming of sorts for Dragon Ball. Lastly, there was substantial editor pressure to change things up in a major way, as the leadership at Jump had recently changed, and they wanted something new.
So there were plenty of reasons besides a lack of success for moving away from the adventure/tournament format. If the format really had died, then we wouldn't still be seeing tournament arcs in every new anime today.
@ClashBluelight
Thank you for the reply, yes they changed so much stuff and the story had exterior influence that end up changing the story process
I appreciate your elaborate explanation and I agree with he point you brought up.
Good day.
Power levels were always looked at as inefficient- I don’t believe it was ever written to go past the Namek Saga. In most of every instance of power level being a factor in the manga and anime it’s shown as being faulty or incorrect. Narratively power levels were meant to be the worst/incorrect form of measurement and characters constantly abused that fact because a majority of the enemies looked at power levels and saw it as the end all be all & underestimated who they would perceive as “weak” because their little scouter toys said so.
It’s always and consistently shown that sensing the strength of an opponent is more efficient and accurate than using a scouter and seeing power level, frieza even has a weakness of not being able to properly sense ki because he relies on seeing power levels from scouters too much
(The scene I’m referring to is when goku is underwater and he shoots a ki blast to fool frieza, which if frieza did know how to properly sense ki it wouldn’t have fooled him, but also another scene where he shot ki beams at a cloud goku was in randomly because he couldn’t sense ki properly)
Keep in mind that this is namek saga Frieza.
The point of power levels is to show that your strength is beyond statistical values and that focusing on said values not only hinders you but leads to consequences as a fighter. (Which is why vegeta quickly ditched his scouter as he understood this after fighting the Z-Fighters)
Now that you explain it, I realize every DBZ villain was defeated because of reliance on power levels, up until Goku went ssj. Although King Cold could be considered the final victim of that system.
Peak video concept deserves 1 million views
I love the content, the fact this video isn’t in chronological order is hurting my brain
The big problem I have is that during timeskips of literal years, power levels barely change even after constant training, and then a trip to the Hyperbolic time chamber they reach the next level.
Great job 🔥🔥
Just watched “New Hope” and this recap and the fan made should go hand in hand. Love how you break down the power system and talk about how much it sidelines other “main” characters
I think you’re right on the pl introduction. I think that’s the real reason they pretty quickly pulled scouters from regular use to the more vague “sensing opponents energy”. 1 thing I will say scouters did help amplify though is the impact of intentionally masking 1s energy level has. Definitely wouldn’t have stopped the power creep; it’s actually been ages since they really even referred to a fighters actual power number. They just say stuff like “he’s stronger than his universe’s god of destruction” and what not.
That first take on OG DB is simply TRASH. My god, it felt like someone poisoning my ears.
How so?
I actually agree with most of these besides Cell shouldn’t of returned and Goku coming back in Buu saga. The Cell saga wanted to shift the attention away from Goku so I think him being the noble sacrifice and the arc ending wouldn’t be satisfying. It also wasn’t just Goku who beat Buu he threw the final attack but you can say Vegeta and Hercule had a bigger impact on that ending.
i actually like the cell coming back partition of the cell saga, because it's the first time in the series a major mechanic that was exclusively in the hands of the saiyans, was used against them: the zenkai boost. i also liked the resurrection of F (movie) because of the same reason. the dragon balls were used against them.
Good video.
The endless chase for higher power levels is a good representation of "The Will"
27:30 think you misunderstood the 21st tenkaiichi budikai and what it Stand for. This was the transitional arc the end of og series and the start of “z”. The return to the tournament plus roshi not participating in it symbolized Goku krillen tien and Yamacha all becoming respected martial artists who can stand on thier own with them all fundamentally surpassing roshi. This effectively ended the longest running theme up to this point in time. Then you also have the aging of Goku both physically and mentally further symbolizing this change into this new era. U mentioned how it bring anything new that’s because the arc was meant to ends the all points currently going on in order to set up news 1s that we will later see in the franchise. To your last point the power scaling “problems” we already told from the get go that’s Goku and piccolo rematch was our main focus this arc and their respective fights was to show how us the viewers how both grown up to this point.
Red ribbon army there is a good main antagonist
Calling the Namek saga the Freeza saga is like instead of calling the granola arc the strongest in the universe arc you call it the granola arc
Rip Akira Toriyama thank you for making my childhood-adulthood special I will forever hold these memories in my heart!
Emperor Pilaf saga was supposed to be Dragon Ball. It was supposed to be a "one shot", a "gag manga". That's why it feels so different than the rest of the series.
People look at this, as hatred. Tune loved DB enough to critique it. Thats as real as it gets. Nothing is perfect & nothing is exempt from being critiqued.😂
Some people just don't understand, they stick to their POV and they fight back if their gets threatened
Like some religious groups.
My major problem with his critic is og dragon ball. I'm sorry it's almost hard to watch since the majority of his critiques felt so unfair towards og. He kept comparing dragon ball to dragon ball z as his major problems when in reality no matter how you look at it, it's completely og dragon ball hands as toriyama wouldn't have been able predict where the series was heading during the beginning of og dragon ball. It make this critiques feel so opinionated as if it's only an issue because it was like dragon ball z that he knows and love when og existed before Z and should be judged separately. That's like comparing a game and it's sequel and calling the og game bad, because the sequel has a some new features or better graphics. It's pretty unfair
11:34 i didn't agree with almost everything you said, but this, changed my whole view on you
Dragonball is flawless....dbz has so many anime issues like padding and focusing on the wrong things...the characters don't feel real they feel like action figures mostly used to make goku look good and make everyone waste time and wait for him as they lose...
No show us flawless, dbz is good every anime has filler.
My god that Pokémon beat drop at 14:43 🔥🔥🔥
arcs that had the biggest problem for each series overall in my opinion:
>OG in general: Comedy, i think its not funny but thats just my opinion
>Saiyan Saga: power levels
>Goku Black: Ending, the arc has problems but the ending is bad in both versions what is the point of having the future trunks timeline be destroyed like you want the heroes to lose ok have future trunks stay and we see some character writing for once of him getting over his failure but his reaction in both versions was very weak and immidiately took the offer to join another timeline where he existed instead of at least using the timeline cell came from (wich is still bad but its a callback to z and it doesnt have 2 trunks and 2 mai in a universe so its slightly better) had this or them retreating and having beerus fight zamasu (who was coming in un7 at the time) would have made this arc an all time great for db
>Black Star Dragons: the mini bosses/villains lacked a lot, i am always here for a space journey or a journey in general but the bad guys they fought were lacklaster most of the time
That Hunter x Hunter music during the Piccolo Jr portion...yeah you got me 🙏🏾
What’s the song playing on the piano? It sounds familiar but I have forgotten the name.
13:24 ok you lost me there... so your complaint about Trunk's strength and comparing him to the other fighter's level... but weren't you complaining about the introduction of power level in the saiyan saga for this same reason??? trying to compare fighters based on their power level rather than on the techniques and the element of surprise and not really knowing who would win in the end ???
The introduction of power levels is why Trunks’s strength in that arc is a problem. It doesn’t really make sense with the rules the series set for itself
@pupulauls so basically the series cant undo the power level shenannigans even if it hasnt beem mentioned in a while? its all about transformations and multipliers that has gone crazy. Power level has not been mentioned in a while. Its transformations now with crazy multipliers. Now, are transformations the only thing that can boost your "power level"? not really, there's rage boost and techniques that can overcome an opponent with higher power.
Anyone who thinks dragonball z is flawless clearly never grew up
yeah even when I was young. even I was going like "wait a damn minute" in some eps. the wishes from each dragon are good examples for those moments.
imo ssj3 doesn't do anything....at all. Yeah its bad ass and cool but its a stamina drainer. Its barely even used. Don't get me wrong love the entire series but Ssj3 is almost a pointless transformation. I also think power levels stopped meaning anything after the cell saga. Gohan going ssj2 against cell is my favorite thing in all of DB. (And beast is incredible just short lived). Just after cell saga power levels where all over the place esp in Super. My gosh super..is just weird with power levels on top of the fact that they keep raising beerus' power level for like no reason (granted I guess no one has fought him since battle of gods).
@@Thevikingninja117 people today making the theory the one goku and gotanks used. is not a mastered form. I mean the buffy form slows you down. so it should make sense the SSJ3 version we all know is just another grade sitting next to a new form that goku never did tried out. because the whole god ki thing.
speaking of that. I think they did say Beerus is just one of those types that keeps growing in power per minute thing. also goku and vegeta are still new to god ki. they are still basically children with it. they're more used to ki. if they go back and forth with ki and god ki. I sure they would jump real fast. and on top of the fact they rely on there forms to much to win fights.
@@rickydiscord7671 ooo definitely good points!
Flawless no. Iconic? yes.
That Iconic scene... was not the Sabat version, but Brian Drummond's original change and voiceover display!
You say you dont like that Goku came back in the Buu saga, but then you say Gohan isn't main character worthy. That's the exact reason why Goku was brought back. Because readers thought Gohan was boring and not interesting.
In the anime's Goku Black saga it was mentioned that F. Trunks had gone through the same ritual by the old kami as Gohan in the Buu saga to unlock their true power, so that form is most probably his Mystic/Ultimate form, like how Gohan, only he seems to be using differently.
12:50 WE SAIYANS HAVE NO LIMITS!!!
I’m glad we have all come to the conclusion that the last great arc was the Cell saga
No.
@@SkateBoardingCow695 yes
@@davidtavares705 no
I think what happened with trunks is the same with Gohan, how hybrids get huge powerups based on their emotions, which is why even though super saiyan in unlocked by rage/training, but it especially effects hybrids.
Trunks transformation in dbs is great in terms of emotions and stuff. His rage really makes sense. The problem really is how much power he gains. He jumps from SSJ2 level to around SSB. Like, even Gohan doesn't power up that much.
A cool thing would have been if Vegeta refused to go to the future and instead insisted on training Trunks so that he could protect his own world by himself. It fits the character and Goku would have been fine with that considering he did the same in the Buu saga.
Vegeta had to learn SSG, and not just get it like Goku so he could have taught Trunks like in the HTC, thinking the huge power gap between SSJ2 and SSG would be enough. During that day of training, Black could still come to this timeline, like the anime, and Goku fights him, since he's the only one here.
And then later, Trunks gets mad and gets a power up and why not a new form but starting from SSG. It would have been so much better, we would see Vegeta care for Trunks, we would have learned how Vegeta got SSG in the first place. Trunks rage would have amplified by the powerless despite intense training feeling. And it would grant the arc overall better consistency.
Also another problem I see with the saga is that Black is actually more interesting than Zamasu, including fused Zamasu. He's not only about his zero mortal plans, he's obsessed with getting stronger, and the sayian biology.
Its funny how despite never talking about this to myself or thinking about it i knew instantly he was talking about zenkai boosts being what they introduced/explained that was bad
If I remember correctly, particularly the last Dragonball saga, and then each subsequent saga, was supposed to be the last, which is what caused so much inconsistency.
If you look at each saga as the end of the series, everything makes a lot more sense and feels more wrapped up.
Re-upload?
Not as much of a reload as it is giving what some people want. There are people who prefer long videos, and it gives people to watch 4 videos in one place
@@ItsBigTune for you Goku has more won or lost these count the all fights db dbz dbgt dbs and movies dbz?
@@ItsBigTune appreciate the clarification brotha!👊🏿
One thing to me in Super is in the Goku Black arc. I personally think it would have been nice if they brought back in many of the characters from the original being survivors hiding out in underground shelters.......Suno and Eighter, Upa and Bora, Nam, Ranfan, Bacteria, LAUNCH and even Crane Hermit.
What song is playing through the beginning segment?
13:36 okay… you were fine up to this part, which compare to other creators is God tier recap 😂 but i digress. he basically killed zamasu because of spirit bomb logic but his sword was the catalyst vs two hands held straight up. goku also addresses this in the anime
This is a very good video. I can’t believe you don’t have more subscribers, BUT can you PLEASE ADD CHAPTERS FOR THIS all ❤ tho all w
You are absolutely right, I normally do that for videos like these.
You're one of the few db youtubers I have seen try to fairly criticize each series. And I think that's good. You're not picking favorites you're covering each thing. It may not always be perfect agree with some things disaree with others but I get the idea.
Everyone criticizes dragon ball Whatchu mean 😭
My biggest issue with Super was, is, and always will be, the fact that it has no stakes for the main cast. We know it takes place before the epilogue chapter of Z, and therefore, anyone alive in that chapter cannot die permanently. So no matter what, everytime anyone is in danger, you just whip out your final chapter, see if they show up, and know that even if they die, they'll be back. Its the reason that, for all its flaws, GT at least had something going for it. Characters could change permanently, or even die permanently, and that was good, it was a tension not felt since the manga/anime was still in weekly puplication, and is something Super can never regain. Daima is going much the same way, being a prequal to Super even, still taking place before the end of Z. Its one of the reasons I never watched Super. That, and the transformations are way less exciting than SS4, visually at least
8:25 Errr Goku didn't defeat Buu alone. If it had been just him, he would have been screwed. He completely failed to convince the public to share their enegry, as did Vegeta, and it took Mr. Satan stepping in to convince them that finally did the trick. Without Mr. Satan and the wish to restore his energy, Goku, and by extention, the entire universe would have lost.
I appreciate the piano cover of Pokemon Gen 2 bgm.
I agree 💯 with everything you said. I remembered Akira he was just going with the flow mostly. And sometimes he would forget stuff.
I be telling ppl saga is a real word!!! Ppl always tell me it’s called an arc and not a saga.
It's just a different choice of words.
I loved power levels and I miss them tbh.
Power Levels were always there. We just didn't know the numbers at the time from an audience perspective
I get that, but honestly, it was a really fun character piece to use.
The biggest problem with the Cell and Buu Saga's is the huge leaps the Saiyans took which sidelined the classic characters that we knew and loved from OG DB. They also dropped the format that mad classic DB so great. Goku gets a new form of training and shows how strong he's become, so the humans do it after. Training with Roshi, climbing Korrin tower, Training under Kami, Tien, Krillin and Yamcha all follwed in Goku's footsteps, either between arcs or during the next arc of the story. Then we get to the Cell arc and the hyperbolic time chamber. Tien's goal of beating Goku is just abandoned and he refuses to even try the chamber because he doesn't think he'll be the one to defeat Cell. Never mind the fact that he can use it to be the best version of himself and that should have motivated him. and I guess they just forgot to mention it to Yamcha and Krillin? The Saiyan saga waiting for Goku was pure gold. Freeza saga was amazing but I would have preferred if Krillin and Gohan had been able to dispatch a few more Freeza soldiers and maybe once they got their power unlocked by Guru they could have taken out Guildo on their own w/out Vegeta's help. Cell had an amazing story and at least everyone did some stuff and participated in someway. Buu made every non saiyan an after thought and really shouldn't have.
7:42 gohan not serving as a decent protagonist is bc he was written that way. Granted, in the the beginning of the saiyan saga, he was afraid to fight but up until the cell saga, gohan was always down to throw hands. Imo, although the cell saga was wen we got one of gohan’s most iconic moments, it was also the saga that ruined him.
Still think it’s funny that Toriyama was influenced heavily by kinnikuman but didn’t learn that power levels don’t work after kinnikuman dropped it in the arc it was introduced it
i know this is a compilation video of other videos you’ve made and i haven’t seen the originals but curious if 14:42 is where u mean to end the goku black critic. it feels very abrupt and i’m shocked u didn’t bring up the zeno button or the convoluted solution for future trunks from Whis. also just my opinion and i promise it’s meant to be constructive next time maybe try to do each series chronologically in these big combo videos going from super to OG DB felt jarring. plus it would make the title seem more accurate and help with presentation much love keep going.
from what I'm getting at. he's bring up the impact of each saga for the series as a whole. rather the plot holes in them. like the power creep example he bring up. it changed the series as a whole. rather tell a story that's meant to be told. the dragon orbs and dragons. they put to much in action rather given answers about the orbs and mostly about the dragons. like where do they come from? the main question that never been straight up answered.
14:29 to be fair, in the manga, Goku never actually fought Goku Black one on one before Black fused with Zamasu so we actually don’t know how manga Goku would’ve faired against Goku Black without perfected SSB
17:57 whis said that ultra instinct gives to instinct not only to dodge but also to know the best way to beat your opponent
You're right about power levels.
This has been a cancer for years, right up until Hit had that time skip thing.
The writers should take more of this. People LOVED those fights with Hit.
Because it was like OG DB.
I do wonder how the Buu Saga would've played out if Goku and Vegeta stayed dead permanently, Vegeta actually sacrificing himself for good would've been really impactful
3:07 legit man if you consider that vegeta with 18,000 was already strong enough to level a planet. And frieza first form sits at over 500k and can destroy a planet with 1 finger and then we get to like a million then several million. The power creep is nuts
Fried, a first form is 540,000
The rets of his form re double the base form.
Fair points you brought up, but NOBODY CAN BEAT ME WHEN I'M SUPER 17
I see a lot of people saying that this is hating on the series. First off, why watch if you feel that way? Secondly and more importantly it’s not a crime to have criticism of something you love. Guess what, even the creator of this series had things he wanted to change after the fact. So why can’t a fan have a valid critique?
I have to disagree with you on a lot of things, but it was a nice video, and I enjoyed listening to your take on the series.
To answer your question on trunks form its his version of ultimate. Gohan's draws twards human side while trunks version is one he had to unlock himself and didn't find out until that fight. Both characters get this form by working with the kais meaning if goku stayed with king kai his would have been gold and red since that is how king kai trains plus his god ki was red not Blue meaning he is always hiding rage with comedy
6:40 Apparently the fans didnt want Gohan to take up the Main Character role.
I watched DB in 92 and dbz in 94. Makes more sense to get into it in that order
Honestly I think the Buu saga would be fine if we skipped everything with Super Buu.
Majin Buu had a really good arc and added a lot of in my opinion, good story direction (other than SSJ3 and Goku stating he could have beaten Majin Buu but didn't because 'he wanted the kids to have a shot') but I also think Kid Buu was a great section. We get iconic character moments such as Vegeta finally admitting Goku's strength, the Spirit Bomb ACTUALLY achieving something, Mr. Satan's character growth to its current point, and a villain that was just evil for the sake of being evil, no ulterior motives attached.
Everything that feels sour to me is everything that happens between those moments. Piccolo being reduced to baby sitter, Gotenks being nothing but a gag character, Gohan once more getting great power only to immediately get shafted, and Vegeta's sacrifice being entirely undermined.
I feel like there could have been a way better story for the Super Buu section to connect Majin Buu and Kid Buu.
Just because elder kai knows what a super saiyan 4 is, still doesnt undermine the fact that we dont know what its gonna look like the first time around. The same critique can literally be applied to the regular super saiyan. It was foreshadowed the whole saga, we knew goku would become a super saiyan.
The tournament of power should’ve been a more traditional anime tournament style. Like if you’re going to have a huge team up of fighters from power houses like Goku and Vegeta to someone as weak as master Roshi make it make sense. Theres bo logical reason that the humans shouldn’t have been one shot so quickly. If they had differnt challenges like maybe characters having to capture something or whoever hits the most targets, or escaping a maze or impress a judge with a specific technique or be creative beyond just the initial battle Royal kick out the enemy thing it would be better. Because if you’re going to add tons of humans and weaker characters give them a way to shine that makes sense. I mean what was the point of the rules if it just ended up as a one on one between goku and Jiren the main enemy just like every arc. Like none of the kicking people out the arena or anything mattered at all really .
I get why they brought Frieza back and super due to him having history with the saiyans though I feel like cell not coming back was a missed opportunity. They could have maybe even have revived Radditz and had him come back as good. That probably would have created some distrust between Vegeta and him as to whom The better Uncle figure is to Gohan all while Piccolo smiles off in the corner knowing he is full good and well the better of the three.
Toriyama kind of pushed himself into the corner with the end of Cell saga, Goku sacrifice was a big deal, Gohan taking up the mantle paved the way for the future and Vegeta's role in it was left unresolved. That's why Buu saga was necessary, but due to studio interference and the problems he faced in writing Gohan as the main lead it didn't finish in a satisfying way. Majin Vegeta's arc is one of the best in the series, I don't know if it could have worked without Goku's ressurection, but that's the thing though, Vegeta's and Gohan's arc resolutions were mutually exclusive.
In the end, though flawed, Buu saga was an epilogue to DB and it should have stayed that way. What happens after that with DBS, well, it's a lot of spectacle, but for character arcs, it doesn't amount to much, it's trivial, contrived and it keeps treading the paths that were already paved. New transformations, new power levels, threats, it's all just meaningless.
While I agree with you on the Z problems I wholeheartedly disagree on everything you said on the original. You probably started with Z and not with the OG and it shows. I grew up with the OG and missed the light-heartedness and smaller adventures in Z. It was perfectly raising the stakes from saga to saga and ended on the positive note of goku not killing piccolo and finally winning the tournament.
Dude don't make assumptions of someone and then try to use them as counter arguments, like saying, you don't understand or you don't know.
Use real arguments fam.
@@AgnesBooth-zu7twwell, but that's his main complaint here. It doesn't have as many fights and isn't as full of tension as Z. And that's exactly what it sets out to be. It's a kid on a whimsical journey and toriyama himself admittedly needed especially in the first arc his time to find his footing. However, the stakes are much lower, there's more emphasis on comedy and apart from OG piccolo there's not really a big baddy but on purpose. It's about the small adventures and scale and that's exactly what he's criticizing. He's criticizing it for what it exactly wants to be and I do believe Goku's character arc is better here than anybody's in Z. And because he's criticizing it for what it is and isn't yet in Z it's a very fair assessment that he started with Z and not with the OG Manga/ Anime.
I’m really hoping a bunch of people collaborate to rewrite all of DBZ and make a fan manga. Toriyama already stated that all the stuff in DBZ wasn’t planned out, so it’d be cool to see how it would play out without all the issues like “power levels”
yeah smarts and skills should also matter in fights. the whole power level thing is the same issue with the whole "brute power" thing. hell that was even talked about in DB and Z there and there once in awhile. dc and marvel ironically enough knows everything matters in a fight not just energy and brute power all the time.
@@rickydiscord7671 Yet marvel and Dc devolve in to power scaling just as easy (looking at you xmen power leveling like pokemon and the justice unlimited comics when superman is involved.)
@@vonshroom2068 that's what I just said. "not just energy and brute power all the time." but yeah there some characters just don't give a damn about skill or power scaling. just like Death Battle sometimes.
@@rickydiscord7671 I just miss the times when writers would think around issues of brains vs brawn. Magic has the same issues in that regards because of poor forward planning.
@@vonshroom2068 I soo agree. I pointed out somewhere.
"if a person's power level is 1000 and has a hard body vs a person is just a power level of 2000. who would you think well win?" and most would say "well the highest power level daaah!" than I would ask "how?" than boom no answer. 70% of the time.
As someone who loved classic db, i 100% agree with power levels.
3:30 should've played the ocean dub
It’s over nine THOUUUUSAAAAND
Great video but one critique. Power levels were meant to mean nothing and while everyone loves power scaling, they were made useless in the freeza saga. Even Vegeta realized this when he destroyed his scouter on Namek. The reason the Freeza Force used scouters is because they never trained, they assumed that’s what the average is and thats where you were placed in the caste system of the empire.
Gokus level was so low yet he is top fighter in his universe. Tien was able to push back Cell with his skill. Roshi vs Jiren. The fanbase is what made power levels seem important.
Whats the Gods power level if their ki cant even be sensed
Freeza is my favorite as well. I agree w a lot of your points. Didn’t like cell ark much. I also think it should’ve concluded there.
Opinions are everywhere. One mans trash and all that.