Comparing Thorens vs. Linn vs. AR Vintage Turntables
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- Опубликовано: 10 фев 2025
- If you own an AR-X, AR Turntable, Linn LP12, or any Thorens Used Turntable, this is a must see. Full comparisons of the suspension family of vintage turntables.
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I think that you're the first person on RUclips to discuss damaged bearings in old(er) turntables. Outside of audio dealers, no one talks about this.
Thank you for your comment and taking the time to contribute to this channel. Yes, most people pay no attention to this very critical part.
Rewatching your video this morning made me think of a question: when listening to these older, possibly damaged/more than likely damaged table bearings, what do you listen for and do you use a stethoscope/ mechanics type with a wand. something like that? Oh, one more thing; Merry christmas and all the best in the New Year to you and your family.
I first perfer to do a visual inspection of both the bearing itself and the thrust plate upon which it spins. Under ideal circumstances, you barely see a small spot on the tip of the bearing and that there is no divot in the thrust plate. This is possible on many tables by removing the inner platter. If there is a lot of oil, then you also need to have a change of oil to replace that which is removed to see the thrust plate. So, for example, I have only seen one Thorens turntable in 35 years where there was not both a wear spot on the bearing tip as large as a pin head and a lovely divot in the thrust plate. You do not, by the way, mix oils. Very bad idea.
Visual inspection is rarely possible on direct drive tables with the way they are assembled. Many of them are quite old, generally speaking and I am more suspicious of them than anything. A stethoscope is an interesting idea as I have 5 and the house for both my wife, who is now on her 2nd heart transplant in 4 years and for our horses. The problem with that approach is that you need to have a reference of what should be. I do not have equipment that could measure rumble. I don't have an amplified stethoscope either. That said, one of the tell tale indications on direct drive tables, (a strong indicator) is whether or not the platter itself comes free easily from the motor shaft which is also the spindle. That usually means the platter has been on the table during any move. Not a guarantee, mind you, but a good indicator of care.
At one point, many decades ago when I sold high end audio, we had a customer who purchased a SOTA TT, with (IIRC) a Safire bearing. And, of course, he couldn't leave anything alone, and eventually he broke the bearing.
Then, he tried to get it repaired for free, which SOTA denied, obviously. So then he tried to get his Home Owner's Insurance to cover the repair, and wanted US to sign a "Statement" claiming that the damage was caused by lightning - really. Not because he was an idiot who had to mess with everything.
Once that didn't work, one of my co-workers saw his TT pop up in the Audio Classifieds - with ZERO mention of the damage, of course. Nice guy.
Very sorry to hear about your wife. My wife just passed away very suddenly and I'm about to be evicted, so obviously I'm watching a video about vintage turntables. Cause why not?
Thanks for your frank discussion about this shady world of used turntables, where it is all to common to get burned...
My personal condolences to the loss of your loved one. These events in our lives really put into perspective what is important and that which is not. It is not, however wrong to seek some form of relief and normalcy by watching things like videos. It's important to maintain a sort of mental balance while addressing the challenges of life. With all my trips to Cleveland, I have developed a really wicked sense of medical humor which I use there to make people laugh. It is a most serious of places for most people and a laugh here and there is just the emotional medicine most of them need, particularly the staff.
And yes, we have those who pawn off their problems on others just as what occurs with cars. Most are wary of used cars or expect some sort of issue while audio products are excused from this sort of critical evaluation. Odd, wouldn't you say?
I don't know about any real organized "shady world of used turntables", but more of an issue, a new group of young people getting into audio via vintage gear. I mean, electronics, amps, preamps, receivers can be restored to original specs by competent techs, but turntables , tape decks, are a whole other animal and these new to the process don't understand that. I always get riled(somewhat) about sellers of tape decks that do not work and claim it's just a belt. If that's all it was, why not replace it and get a better price. Hell, I lived through the seventies and eighties, some of the nineties owning several quality decks and all the nylon parts, idler wheels, motors, etc. needing replacement. I have receipts from Studer Revox and Nakamichi, $500.00, one nearly a grand for a Nak. And just recently restoring to new condition a Beocenter 7700. The tape deck required everything! Thankfully I have good connections there(cost me a very good bottle of whiskey). I think I got off topic, sorry.
@@watdanuqta-mf5ms That is principally for whom I am doing these videos. The new. Now, there's plenty of stuff for us oldies to enjoy and maybe, just maybe, learn a thing or two. I have had some wonderful comments adding to or correcting my videos that are deeply appreciated. If it is done constructively, it really adds to the channel. I've had a few that, well reminded me of some manufacturers that I don't do business with any more - their attitude. I also doink people to add links as I can not vouch for how safe those are and am not going down that slippery slope. Yep, I won't touch tape decks, cassette or reel to reel for the very reasons you state.
The Collaro Transcription Units used a 3 point sprung suspension from 1956 as well as a mechanically decoupled arm board. Well before AR or Thorens.
Please send me a link to our website showing this. All I can find is a 1956 Magnavox Collaro Turntable which fails to reveal the 3 point suspension of the table other than the traditional putting the whole table on springs. Most curious.
Yes, I have just learned that from another. Thank you for pointing this out as well. Do you know if it was meant to be tuned?
@@audibleeleganceinc No. Not meant to be tuned as there's no adjustment.
@@may_68 But clearly the rudimentary start. Interesting.
Informative video Lou. I'll stick with belt drive.
Regarding the Thorens TTs - at least the classic TD 125 - replacement Torlon thrust bearings are available and inexpensive. Properly lubricated, these will last essentially "forever" and restore the silent running to a vintage Thorens.
Thank you for that contribution to the video and our channel. The key is not only the bearing, but the thrust plate in the bearing well. Much appreciated addition.
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The Torlon plate IS the thrust bearing
Perfect. Please send me a link to that sight. Is it for the 125 only?
Now, what I was talking about was that improper movement of the table results in damage to both the bearing itself and the thrust plate. It takes various forms and as soon as get another Thorens in for service, like a cartridge, I will use a digital camera to show what I am talking about. Should not be that hard.
I found various links for this product and what confused me was your reference to it as a bearing. It's a pad or plate. One ad properly noted the common dimple in the original plates. Yep. I'll have to play with one. Some of the other advice in one ad made me quiver as many today have little to no mechanical skills. I'll do a article on it. Thanks.
Sounds like the moral of the story is to never buy a used Thorens table. Can you replace the bearings?
The moral of the story is to check all turntable bearings. At least with Thorens you can do that and given they were very popular in the 70s and 80s and are fetching very high prices, they are game. You can not check the bearings on any direct drive table which is why I won't touch them.
I have a Thorens 280 with a signet cartridge
A basic design which often can lead to good results. For awhile they were making fake suspensions that were not on springs but rather bent pieces of metal. No possible way of tuning it but it looked like you could. It was a sham. So, you might very well be getting quite enjoyable music. I have not heard that combination.
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@ signet was a higher end of audiotechnica i believe.. the Thorens 280 isn’t suspended at all it’s bent drive with tp28 tone arm
@@jeffreycurtisjr9195 And that's why I think it has a decent chance at performance!
@ any upgrades or improvements I can do? Any quality repair or techs in Connecticut
@@jeffreycurtisjr9195 I have no idea what is lurking about up in your neck of the woods. There had been some good shops in Boston and you might try calling down to them. I am not much of a modifier or fan of it but there are those who love to tinker. I am personally always skeptical of such things as many ignore the design principals behind the turntable. So, yes, it changes the sound but is it for the better?
very interesting Lou and you didn't even get into the tonearm bearings.
I have to save something for another video! I will show some testing jigs that I have made.
Yes very interesting potted history video. As you already know Linn makes outstanding bearings but that level of engineering is expensive. Rega on the other hand has inexpensive bearings that are very easy to replace and both companies replacements are readily available. I personally own and love both but in my opinion Linn wins hands down on sound quality. Other great reliable British brands to look out for are Systemdek and Revolver similar to Linn and Rega respectively and used prices are far lower with nearly the same level of performance.
@@tonyjedioftheforest1364 Yes, there is definitely a quality difference in bearings. I keep a Linn one handy to show people. Equally important, however, is the thrust plate and that is where many make mistakes using a softer material than the bearing itself.
@@tonyjedioftheforest1364 Equally important, and nearly always overlooked, is the upper sleeve that holds the bearing upright. I often see brass being used, many times without oil, against a steel type bearing. If the platter (and inner platter) are properly balanced and lubricated, I don't see an issue for quite some time. However, that's not always the case and many platters are not carefully balanced. I have often wondered if there is some wobble (however minor) that contributes to bearing wear or inconsistent performance. Obviously, this is long term. The fact that the bearing is vertical rather than horizontal likely helps whereas with a vehicle, it's a quick disaster.
With all of the good, used Linn Cirkus and black liner bearings & matching inner platters circulating on the market for sale, I wonder if anyone has attempted to fit one to the Thorens?
Whatever happened to the magnetic design with no bearing whatsoever? This always seemed like an obvious idea to me. A floating spindle on an air gap, with a reverse magnetic design should be even easier with today's very strong magnets.
Vintage Direct Drive turntables are just a bad idea. We know unquestionably that the rubber drive wheel develops a flat spot over time.
And that's not even considering the fact that Direct Drive turntables can't help but transfer motor noise to the amplification of the needle and cartridge. It's just a reality of the design. I always am marveled by the people who glorify these decks...
You certainly raise an interesting point about magnetic designs. It may well come down to cost. I am not sure. As for direct drive, the first ones were really designed for the radio industry with their instant start up which avoided dead air time for all other tables. 1/4 revolution and you were playing. Certainly the lack of necessary maintenance played a part as well not to mention their innovative styling. Even Denon recognized the issues of DC motors with their AC designs yet even today we see tables like Music Hall using DC motors on belt drive tables. Few could innovate with strobes like Thorens did with their flagship table where it was standard fair on many Japanese table designs.
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What you mean by tuning what are you actually tuning?
Well a turntable isn't shot if the bearing is worn in the Thorens there's three approaches you can take the easiest is to put a knob of ball bearing grease or yellow lithium grease on the tip of the spindle size of a pea. Secondly you can take the shim thrust bearing out from the top by removing the bronze side bearings sleeves make sure you rotate these when putting back and flip the thrust bearing over but you need to polish it to a glass finish first this will wear down quicker and probably cause a hole but you should get many years use it's kept oil or greased. Best approaches to put a motorbike valve lifter titanium shim these come in different sizes but still needs to be ground down and polished on one side you don't want any thicker than two and a half millimetres ideally 2 millimeters is what it is. But the grease is the easiest and will be effective you have to lift the bearing off the bottom if you measure the inner platter to the suspension plinth then putting in the grease you should know after settling down it will be high at first if it's riding above it's friction point you put too much grease in you're gonna find it hard to pull out and you're probably need to use some isoproponel to dilute it so be careful how much you put in usually a large pea size is about right.
The original thrust bearing shim is only steel. It has a plastic shim and a cork shim as well for dampening. I wouldn't use anything harder than titanium the spindle is only stainless steel can be ground and polished if ring of wear but just make sure you use a knob of grease and you won't get any wear, oil on the sides I like using 70 w 90 manual gearbox oil GL4 suitable for yellow metals or machinist oil.
As for the bearing, I completely disagree. Once a bearing is worn that's it. Sure lubrication might help but it is out of spec and that's it. Then, when you look at what you suggest, which actually might be very good, do you think the average buyer is going to do this? Finally, add onto it the completely absurd high prices now being asked for turntable and what you have is a poor value. Most people peddling used Thorens are thrift shop buyers looking to turn a quick buck on the unwary.
As for tuning, the Thorens can be tuned, much like a Linn turntable so that it's bounce is completely vertical when dealing with vibrations. Does anyone teach this? Of course not. So, if Linn turntables are "fussy", then the typical Thorens turntable is trashed. At one point, they used the exact same springs and the exact same grommets. Later on, they went to a "fake" suspension with bent pieces of metal.
Notwithstanding how I have responded, I do thank you for your comments and ideas. I am sure someone will give it a go.
one is tuning the resonant frequency of the suspended mass, in an effort to keep spurious room noise energy from linking up in frequencies that might interact with any generated energy from the cartridge.
I would hesitate to use machines oil for lubrication , for although it does lubricate, it is primarily designed to remove heat, not friction. my brass table bearing uses 30 weight synthetic, with an oil change every five years. I can only easily get car oil, a factory approved substitute, so I change once a year, because additives spoil to ineffective after a year.
I have cleaned and restored the AR XA /XB, a couple of Rek O Kut’s, etc., but I only consider them as a cool industrial art display piece rather than being functional. I rely on a reasonably updated LP12 for the actual information retrieval and musical experience.
Restoring the original AR turntable is a labor of love and respect. I have done it. So, no knocks on the table as it was well ahead of its time. So, kudos for your efforts. Thank you for taking the time to comment. Most appreciated.