Yep, according to that tradition in John. But critics will just respond that this story is made up, and since John was written after Paul, they will discount it.
@@jeeshhh If it is the case that the story was written AFTER Paul - which it is - then the likelihood is that it was made up by "John", many decades later. It is not about deciding "what's made up and what isn't". I will tell you something that IS made up: almost everything about the "Jesus" character.
An important point of correction. Paul was not quoting the Gospel of Luke relating to the Eucharist, Luke was quoting Paul. Paul wrote before Luke's Gospel.
There was more revelation which the Lord couldn't give while He was still on the earth because they weren't ready for them, and he let His disciples know quite clearly so. But He promised that the Holy Spirit will take from what He has prepared and give to them. (John 16 : 12 - 14) Many of this were "mysteries" which the Apostle Paul always referred to. And thus he was given these mysteries by revelation from the Lord and the Holy Spirit at the right time, and we now have them in scriptures. So Paul never contradicted the Lord Jesus, instead, he spoke the things which he had received from the Lord which He (the Lord) couldn't speak as the time wasn't right for them when He was still on earth. Oh the beautiful harmony of scriptures and the timeliness of God's plans, purposes and revelations!
oswald etc: You are just making it up as you go along. First, demonstrate, with good, credible evidence, that this "Lord" exists. Your preferred book of stories will not do. Lots of people have a preferred book of stories.
The claim that Paul invented Christianity is a historical misconception. Here's a breakdown of the facts and possibilities: Facts Against Paul Inventing Christianity: Early Christianity: Christianity existed before Paul. Jesus' disciples and followers spread the message of his teachings and resurrection shortly after his death, likely in the 30s AD. Paul's conversion occurred several years later, around 33-36 AD. Jesus as Foundation: The core beliefs of Christianity, such as the divinity of Jesus, his sacrifice, and his resurrection, were established before Paul's ministry. Paul himself refers to these core beliefs as already being accepted by the early church (1 Corinthians 15:1-7). Other Early Leaders: Figures like Peter, James, and John the Baptist played crucial roles in the early church alongside Paul. The New Testament portrays them carrying on Jesus' teachings.
Samson etc: You are quite correct to say that Paul did not "invent" Christianity, for some of the reasons you give. The most significant of these reasons is that Christianity already existed in some nascent form. However, I think there is an equivocation going on here. No sceptic would assert that Paul INVENTED Christianity ab initio, ex nihilo, unless that sceptic was using "invented" in a rather loose sense. What happened, in my view, was that Paul was trying to get rid of these folk who were claiming the divinity of "Jesus" and his messiahship, but, like so many desperate Jews at the time, he fell under the spell of the notion that the Messiah had finally arrived. He was seduced by the stories told by the people he was sent to "persecute", and the rest is history. Of course, it is all nonsense. Virgins giving birth, people walking on water, turning water into wine, feeding thousands from tiny resources, dying and rising ... Anybody who was not already invested in believing all this would look at it and, frankly, laugh. If you, for example, are some stripe of Christian, what do you think about Mohammed receiving a visit from the angel, Gabriel? What about riding on a winged horse or splitting the moon? I doubt very much that you believe any of it. Why not? Is it because you have a book and you like your book better?
I think more of the issue is was the original Jesus more of a prophet/messiah or was he as Christians believe a divine demi-god. the NT seems to have aspects where it doesn't seem like he is actually a demi-god but has the spirit of god in him as many other prophets, judges, and Jewish heroes have had in the past. So is it with Paul that we get things that are far more anti-judaic and more, dare I say pro pagan. So both things can be true. Yes the way forward could be as Jesus taught the Jews that it's not just the law but the reason for the law (Jesus does not ever want to break any of the convent, and as far as I understand even Jeremiahs I will make a new convent with you doesn't mean the law ends but instead god renews it) but Paul takes it to a whole new place where he is entirely against the old law, and deifies Jesus it seems that at this point the path forward isn't through the teachings of Jesus but through accepting Jesus as god. Big difference.
With regard to your question: "... is there evidence that Jesus is the key thinker behind Christianity?" No. There is no good, credible evidence at all. There is no good, credible, extra-biblical, contemporary evidence that the "Jesus" character, as described in the NT, existed. None. You would have to demonstrate that he DID exist first, then we could talk about whether he was a "key thinker behind Christianity".
Thomas called Jesus God long before Paul. ("My Lord and my God")
Yep, according to that tradition in John. But critics will just respond that this story is made up, and since John was written after Paul, they will discount it.
@@qcsocials Well how convenient.. I guess they can win any argument if they decide what's made up and what isn't.
@@jeeshhh If it is the case that the story was written AFTER Paul - which it is - then the likelihood is that it was made up by "John", many decades later.
It is not about deciding "what's made up and what isn't".
I will tell you something that IS made up: almost everything about the "Jesus" character.
Paul even himself says that non of his teachings come from any man, which is the only way he could have gotten it if it came from Jesus.
An important point of correction.
Paul was not quoting the Gospel of Luke relating to the Eucharist, Luke was quoting Paul.
Paul wrote before Luke's Gospel.
There was more revelation which the Lord couldn't give while He was still on the earth because they weren't ready for them, and he let His disciples know quite clearly so. But He promised that the Holy Spirit will take from what He has prepared and give to them. (John 16 : 12 - 14)
Many of this were "mysteries" which the Apostle Paul always referred to. And thus he was given these mysteries by revelation from the Lord and the Holy Spirit at the right time, and we now have them in scriptures.
So Paul never contradicted the Lord Jesus, instead, he spoke the things which he had received from the Lord which He (the Lord) couldn't speak as the time wasn't right for them when He was still on earth.
Oh the beautiful harmony of scriptures and the timeliness of God's plans, purposes and revelations!
oswald etc: You are just making it up as you go along. First, demonstrate, with good, credible evidence, that this "Lord" exists. Your preferred book of stories will not do. Lots of people have a preferred book of stories.
The claim that Paul invented Christianity is a historical misconception. Here's a breakdown of the facts and possibilities:
Facts Against Paul Inventing Christianity:
Early Christianity: Christianity existed before Paul. Jesus' disciples and followers spread the message of his teachings and resurrection shortly after his death, likely in the 30s AD. Paul's conversion occurred several years later, around 33-36 AD.
Jesus as Foundation: The core beliefs of Christianity, such as the divinity of Jesus, his sacrifice, and his resurrection, were established before Paul's ministry. Paul himself refers to these core beliefs as already being accepted by the early church (1 Corinthians 15:1-7).
Other Early Leaders: Figures like Peter, James, and John the Baptist played crucial roles in the early church alongside Paul. The New Testament portrays them carrying on Jesus' teachings.
Samson etc: You are quite correct to say that Paul did not "invent" Christianity, for some of the reasons you give. The most significant of these reasons is that Christianity already existed in some nascent form.
However, I think there is an equivocation going on here. No sceptic would assert that Paul INVENTED Christianity ab initio, ex nihilo, unless that sceptic was using "invented" in a rather loose sense. What happened, in my view, was that Paul was trying to get rid of these folk who were claiming the divinity of "Jesus" and his messiahship, but, like so many desperate Jews at the time, he fell under the spell of the notion that the Messiah had finally arrived. He was seduced by the stories told by the people he was sent to "persecute", and the rest is history.
Of course, it is all nonsense. Virgins giving birth, people walking on water, turning water into wine, feeding thousands from tiny resources, dying and rising ... Anybody who was not already invested in believing all this would look at it and, frankly, laugh.
If you, for example, are some stripe of Christian, what do you think about Mohammed receiving a visit from the angel, Gabriel? What about riding on a winged horse or splitting the moon? I doubt very much that you believe any of it. Why not? Is it because you have a book and you like your book better?
I think more of the issue is was the original Jesus more of a prophet/messiah or was he as Christians believe a divine demi-god. the NT seems to have aspects where it doesn't seem like he is actually a demi-god but has the spirit of god in him as many other prophets, judges, and Jewish heroes have had in the past. So is it with Paul that we get things that are far more anti-judaic and more, dare I say pro pagan. So both things can be true. Yes the way forward could be as Jesus taught the Jews that it's not just the law but the reason for the law (Jesus does not ever want to break any of the convent, and as far as I understand even Jeremiahs I will make a new convent with you doesn't mean the law ends but instead god renews it) but Paul takes it to a whole new place where he is entirely against the old law, and deifies Jesus it seems that at this point the path forward isn't through the teachings of Jesus but through accepting Jesus as god. Big difference.
Christians viewing God as a demi-God?
With regard to your question: "... is there evidence that Jesus is the key thinker behind Christianity?"
No. There is no good, credible evidence at all. There is no good, credible, extra-biblical, contemporary evidence that the "Jesus" character, as described in the NT, existed. None. You would have to demonstrate that he DID exist first, then we could talk about whether he was a "key thinker behind Christianity".
Surely Mark I invented Jesus as God