As a kid in the 80s and 90s, the 3 series, 5 series, 7 series (with the 6 & 8 series alternating in between) had real style and presence on the road. But now they are two a penny, are usually driven by ignoramoses, and have no style at all..... A shame.
When the BangleButt 7 series showed up I was horrified. So I bought my first BMW, a 2003 330i out of fear that he would ruin the 3 series too. Now, twenty years on, I have no interest in current BMWs purely because of the design philosophy. The grills, the shapes, the multitude of different models now, but to me, the loss of the classic interior design and ergonomics. My 2016 F10 535d will be my last BMW ever I feel
Could do a few more years with the G30 generation of 5 after yours or a 3 series if you don't want to go for a huge barge. They are quite handsome still.
From a child, I had a high admiration for BMW. Their designs were elegant and sporty. Fast-forward 2024. Their designs are simply grotesque. There is not a single angle on their range of cars which is attractive.
Really enjoyed this discussion. Having previously owned an E92 M3, F80 M3 and a 1M, I’d have to say that then 1M was the car that I couldn’t stop looking at on the driveway. Those arches just look so good imo!
I almost didn't watch this video because of your comment. I don't understand your comment as there are photos scattered through the video at the appropriate times. Should edit your comment....
I get it, I’m middle aged. And I absolutely adore the E31, E34, E38, E39, E46. I actually love the Bangle Z4 Coupe, convertible and 6 series, always have. But aside from the current gen X5 (which is previous gen design language), and the 8 series and the 3 series - IMO every other available bmw is FUGLY and there’s not a single one I’d buy as a result of the design.
I grew up as BMW guy. My late dad had Beemer's since '70s. I've had E30,E32,E34,E36,E46 and E90. Last one was shit quality. Now I have in my garage Z3 and E36 coupe but daily drive now is Mazda. It looks and feels good and quality is top of the world. E36 era was still that.
What an amazing storyteller. Loved every bit of this. So informed and better than ‘you’re so shouting at each other about toothy grilles’! Very funny!! I am now looking up where I can get an e34 3.8 in Orinoco…
The behind the scenes talk of proportions, designs etc to then produce the horror they have.. the key was in one sentence the 4 series coupe sold well so they continued that grille… it would have sold well with any front due to the dynamics
Hi ! 😃 Great podcast very informative. The fact that pictures of the vehicles talked about really help and add so much to the point of publishing a video. My favourites BMW designs are : the Z8, the E46 3 series, E39 5 series, E38 7 series, 1st gen X5, the E90 330i LCI (especially with the M pack), 2nd gen Z4 ❤, the 1M, the last gen 2 series coupe and M2 (with the N55), F30 3 series & same generation 4 series gran coupe, F80 M3 (a dark metallic blue manual, competition one would be my ultimate daily) and the last gen 5 series. Keep going like this. 😄
I remember being horrified back then, when a friends neighbour turned up in a new Bangle 7 series with its horrible big lardy backside. I couldn’t believe anybody would buy one . I couldn’t believe that nobody at BMW said, wait a minute.. isn’t this fugly !
I’m sorry but BMW is known for their handling, steering, refinement, and last but not least, their designs. When I think of a BMW I think of the designs from the 70’s, 80’s, and 90’s as they look like an evolution from generation to generation. When the “Chris Bangle” designs came out to me it was a major mistake. When you look at a Porsche 911, they have stayed true to that design and BMW should have done the same. BMW peaked with the E46, E39, and E38 generation. Sales of the XM have been horrible and dealerships are discounting them and even then they’re having trouble selling them. Go back to your roots BMW and listen to your loyal fan base.
As a BMW fan, it hurts to see how BMW is doing everything to destroy one of the key brand values: attractive design and excellent ergonomics. How on earth could this happen? I know that esthetics is not an exact science but there is more. In several instances, we actually detect poor quality design, irrespective of esthetics. Lines that do not seem to have any connection, inconsistencies, unbalanced proportions, poor ergonomics, etc. One would almost think that the Chinese are paying the head of design to damage the BMW design image.
A company that relatively recently (in the grand scheme) brought us the e46, e39 and e38. Absolutely unbelievable what the majority of BMW's have become. Latest 7 series is a particular disgrace.
@@earthtoimani I think it's rather patronising and simplistic to cluster a massive region's tastes in such a way. Look at most chinese EVs now, none of them have a massive grille or even at all.
I've just ordered one. I learned a while ago not to react too emotionally to new BMW designs. We all need a bit of time on the change curve. Plus once you drive the i7 whatever you think of the looks all is forgiven. What a machine.
It is so liberating to see this interview. I agree in almost every single word of Steve Saxty. Now I also have a strong desire for his books, they are on top of my wish list, of course after my dream BMW which includes models from the 60`s/70`s/80`s/90`s/00`s/2010`s/todays and of course Neue Klasse 2.0 :-D My current highest realistic wish for the next BMW to own is a Z4 Coupè! But also hope to own an E3/E36 M3GT/E34 M5 Touring/E46 M3 CSL/F11 550i Touring/i3 and so on, and so on! 🙂
Sometimes cars of course grow on you overtime but I can’t imagine many of the current range ever will, I still don’t like many of the so called Bangle era models .
The E60 looks great with the bigger wheels and M bodykit,my 2007 530d still performs and looks great.E60 looks bland with the smaller wheels a lot of 520d wete used as taxis in Germany.
The 2002 for 2002 model must surely be a stripped down E46 coupe, not E92? It certainly has E46 door handles and predates the E92 by about three years. If it was being proposed for 2002, it must have been a few years before 2002, so 2000 at the latest? Surely too early to be based on the E92 that came out in, what, 2005?
Excellent session, I really enjoyed the subject. Designers need to meet additional packaging requirements for various reasons and perhaps European tastes are given the back burner. I prefer the XM to the iX, don't understand the multi-headlight look of the new 7 series at all. The new 5 series is interesting (not attractive though) but it is really too big and therefore compromised. If you take the mid-range sector e.g E-Class, can we say we have seen a real attractive model for some time? It's more evolution than revolution. As a car enthusiast, I am racking my head to think of a real attractive looking new model from our favourite makers, e.g. Huracan replacement is too samey, Ferraris (are out of my league but) a bit outrageous. Perhaps the Lotus Emira gets my vote. The last visually appealing BMW to me was the 5 Series (E39) but I would probably go for the E30 M3 or the M1 (Supercar).
34:18 Unfortunately in today’s world people prefer that what is outside and don’t care that much about how the car is inside, handling and other. But it’s the same everywhere. Like when People rather look rich than being rich. Everything just a gimmick on social media 😓
I’m in the minority but I love the what bmw is doing now and I loved the bangle era. If you are a lifestyle brand that happens to sell cars, you need step out on the ledge sometimes and see what sticks.
But if so many are disparaging what you're doing maybe it's time to have a rethink, which they have. They just played too into the Chinese market, who like to buy the most garish and blingy cars possible
@PrinceOfHavendale, I am also in the minority, and love what they've done with the 7 Series. It reminds me of the E23 and E65, both of which preceded a much toned down and executive design language found in the E32, E38, the F01& F02, as well as, the G11 and G12. I expect the G70's LCI to be brought in line with the G60 5 Series, on the frontal end's design language, in the same way the E65's LCI was tidied up in 2005.
I find most of the new designs awful and i still maintain that the Bangle era 6&7 look flawed, the 3 looks good in form but not quite in detail (very generic head&tail lights) i think the suvs of that era look good, so does the 3 coupe, z4 and the 5 if not poverty specced (the designer being an Italian it all makes sense now!)
The e39 was not as good as the e34 though IMO. It was more bland, less interesting face graphics, softer, less sporty, less shark nose etc. That and the E90 were all worse than their predecessors. The Z3 was considered a joke at the time. This guy was part of the problem.
@@jonathanbowen3640z3 was not a looker at all but the E39 is pure understated handsomeness. The e34 was prettier for sure but the 39 was just so right
@@adams7405 That's fine but not related to the styling. It's simply not as good as a design. It's more rounded and conventional. It also doesn't have any amazing wheels like the E34 had. (Though the M5s were pretty good) It lost sharpness that even the E34 lost of its predecessor and resulted in the inflated blob (specifically the face) that is the E60.
This is why I have not sold my F82 M4 heritage edition. I think Bmw thought they were going to capture China with the digital driving cars with no soul, overweight and shaved front end.
Good design has always had just one central mantra 'form follows function'... and grills are the single part of a car to be obsolete in the EV transition, they serve no function in an EV powertrain. So when BMW choose the grill of all things as the primary conceit in their 'new' design language, it was not just a fail in terms of aesthetics, it was a total lack of forethought in terms of longevity... it wasn't just the new cars were ugly, or even that the designs horrified fans, it was the fact all that pain, was in vain, The first new 'built from the ground up' EV's were always destined to have zero need for a massive air intake like a grill... so as a design language, it was always destined for a shelf life shorter than a bulb of garlic...
Even just a single generation ago, BMWs were some of the nicest looking cars on the road. Now they are (mostly) among the ugliest. Holdouts are the Z4, 8 series and non-snouted 3-series. They pass by and I wince.
Some Bangle-era designs like the E85 were hard to process when new but look fantastic now. In fact, arguably, most cars on sale today are heavily influenced by those Bangle-era flame surface cars. Turns out those cars were brilliant and forward looking. What BMW is doing now is also hard to process, it's just hard to imagine it will age as well or be as influential. Maybe that's wrong, it's just so hard to see.
I bet the design reviews for those past few years must have been a scene out of the Emperor's new clothes tale. Everybody seeing it but nobody wanting to be dubbed negative or impolite or "backwards". I struggle to believe all these people don't have functioning eyeballs. Also regarding the "it's better to stand for something than to stand for nothing" statement explaining the M4 front - i think it ahows the root of the problem. The truth is the exact opposite if you stand for something objectively wrong. You could literally try to explain the Nazis away by saying "they stood for something". 🙃
KIA are going down the same kid with lego bricks design as well with their EV cars. Why are all EV wheels terrible also? Getting back to BMW I think they have become obsessed with aggressive looks and it has gone too far. I think the genesis was with Audi and big front grilles and now it has gone too far for BMW with that and the front bumper.
Blob like SUVs, now EVs are paving the way for characterless unindividual transport so people will happily book a driverless uber instead of running their own car
Thanks for the interview/discussion but the content here is politically correct and wastes time skirting around any definitive opinion. Its like all the latest designs are explained and explained.. as if to gaslight everything the constructive parts of public criticism is going on about. I didn’t come here seeking negativity, only critical thoughts. We have already heard everything domagoj dukec/hoydonk had to say in their defence.. this had no added value at all (personal opinion).
As a kid in the 80s and 90s, the 3 series, 5 series, 7 series (with the 6 & 8 series alternating in between) had real style and presence on the road. But now they are two a penny, are usually driven by ignoramoses, and have no style at all..... A shame.
When the BangleButt 7 series showed up I was horrified. So I bought my first BMW, a 2003 330i out of fear that he would ruin the 3 series too.
Now, twenty years on, I have no interest in current BMWs purely because of the design philosophy. The grills, the shapes, the multitude of different models now, but to me, the loss of the classic interior design and ergonomics.
My 2016 F10 535d will be my last BMW ever I feel
After forty years of BMW ownership, I have finally spent my pennies elsewhere.
Could do a few more years with the G30 generation of 5 after yours or a 3 series if you don't want to go for a huge barge. They are quite handsome still.
The G series 5 series lci and the current 8 series are still very very nice BMW designs
From a child, I had a high admiration for BMW. Their designs were elegant and sporty. Fast-forward 2024. Their designs are simply grotesque. There is not a single angle on their range of cars which is attractive.
Really enjoyed this discussion. Having previously owned an E92 M3, F80 M3 and a 1M, I’d have to say that then 1M was the car that I couldn’t stop looking at on the driveway. Those arches just look so good imo!
Photos showing the cars being discussed would have been nice.
Would’ve been demonetized if they showed those grotesque images
@@Fc-cb3tn😂
@@Fc-cb3tn 😅
I almost didn't watch this video because of your comment. I don't understand your comment as there are photos scattered through the video at the appropriate times. Should edit your comment....
"Snotty McButtface" is what I call them these days. I had bmw from 1985-2008 exclusively, loved them.
I get it, I’m middle aged. And I absolutely adore the E31, E34, E38, E39, E46. I actually love the Bangle Z4 Coupe, convertible and 6 series, always have. But aside from the current gen X5 (which is previous gen design language), and the 8 series and the 3 series - IMO every other available bmw is FUGLY and there’s not a single one I’d buy as a result of the design.
I grew up as BMW guy. My late dad had Beemer's since '70s. I've had E30,E32,E34,E36,E46 and E90. Last one was shit quality. Now I have in my garage Z3 and E36 coupe but daily drive now is Mazda. It looks and feels good and quality is top of the world. E36 era was still that.
What an amazing storyteller. Loved every bit of this. So informed and better than ‘you’re so shouting at each other about toothy grilles’! Very funny!!
I am now looking up where I can get an e34 3.8 in Orinoco…
I loved the mid 2000s cars, the e92 was elegant and well proportioned
The behind the scenes talk of proportions, designs etc to then produce the horror they have.. the key was in one sentence the 4 series coupe sold well so they continued that grille… it would have sold well with any front due to the dynamics
Hi ! 😃 Great podcast very informative. The fact that pictures of the vehicles talked about really help and add so much to the point of publishing a video.
My favourites BMW designs are : the Z8, the E46 3 series, E39 5 series, E38 7 series, 1st gen X5, the E90 330i LCI (especially with the M pack), 2nd gen Z4 ❤, the 1M, the last gen 2 series coupe and M2 (with the N55), F30 3 series & same generation 4 series gran coupe, F80 M3 (a dark metallic blue manual, competition one would be my ultimate daily) and the last gen 5 series.
Keep going like this. 😄
The BMW e30 still remains one of my favourite looking cars. My dad had one and always remember the quality of the car
I had three over the years. One standard 325i and two MTECH 2 Sports. All beautiful cars
1986 325i SE was a special car at that time...did 300 000 miles in 15 years in mine
@@adams7405 : I have owned five 3 series BMW's... for me, my 1986 325i was the one that I rate the most satisfying.
Proud owner of an F80 M3. Absolutely love the design 🔥
Wonderful car
I remember being horrified back then, when a friends neighbour turned up in a new Bangle 7 series with its horrible big lardy backside.
I couldn’t believe anybody would buy one . I couldn’t believe that nobody at BMW said, wait a minute.. isn’t this fugly !
I’m sorry but BMW is known for their handling, steering, refinement, and last but not least, their designs. When I think of a BMW I think of the designs from the 70’s, 80’s, and 90’s as they look like an evolution from generation to generation. When the “Chris Bangle” designs came out to me it was a major mistake. When you look at a Porsche 911, they have stayed true to that design and BMW should have done the same. BMW peaked with the E46, E39, and E38 generation. Sales of the XM have been horrible and dealerships are discounting them and even then they’re having trouble selling them. Go back to your roots BMW and listen to your loyal fan base.
They have lost the plot I bit. The new M5 weighing 2.4 tonnes just beggar's belief as well
As a BMW fan, it hurts to see how BMW is doing everything to destroy one of the key brand values: attractive design and excellent ergonomics. How on earth could this happen? I know that esthetics is not an exact science but there is more. In several instances, we actually detect poor quality design, irrespective of esthetics. Lines that do not seem to have any connection, inconsistencies, unbalanced proportions, poor ergonomics, etc. One would almost think that the Chinese are paying the head of design to damage the BMW design image.
A company that relatively recently (in the grand scheme) brought us the e46, e39 and e38. Absolutely unbelievable what the majority of BMW's have become.
Latest 7 series is a particular disgrace.
@@earthtoimani I think it's rather patronising and simplistic to cluster a massive region's tastes in such a way. Look at most chinese EVs now, none of them have a massive grille or even at all.
I've just ordered one. I learned a while ago not to react too emotionally to new BMW designs. We all need a bit of time on the change curve. Plus once you drive the i7 whatever you think of the looks all is forgiven. What a machine.
@@XJRSuperI’d never forgive its looks, there are no redeeming features. Sometimes designs are just crap and BMW churn out plenty these days.
@@XJRSuperdon't lie, you brought one due to tax return combined with a fragile ego.
that 2002 revival would have been sublime!, 1000 kgs, rwd, manual and 2-300 hp; driving bliss!
Awesome insight!
E24 635 is the ultimate especially in highline or M635csi form. Closely followed by the E9 CSL that preceded it.
Better combining photos introductions in between would be perfect
great car chat video guys
The e46 was a very beautiful design
It is so liberating to see this interview. I agree in almost every single word of Steve Saxty. Now I also have a strong desire for his books, they are on top of my wish list, of course after my dream BMW which includes models from the 60`s/70`s/80`s/90`s/00`s/2010`s/todays and of course Neue Klasse 2.0 :-D My current highest realistic wish for the next BMW to own is a Z4 Coupè! But also hope to own an E3/E36 M3GT/E34 M5 Touring/E46 M3 CSL/F11 550i Touring/i3 and so on, and so on! 🙂
Sometimes cars of course grow on you overtime but I can’t imagine many of the current range ever will, I still don’t like many of the so called Bangle era models .
Was the XM in the video thumbnail clickbait? I didn't hear them talking about the XM at all. Perhaps I missed that part of the video?
I too expected from them to hear their opinion about the xm
The E60 looks great with the bigger wheels and M bodykit,my 2007 530d still performs and looks great.E60 looks bland with the smaller wheels a lot of 520d wete used as taxis in Germany.
The 2002 for 2002 model must surely be a stripped down E46 coupe, not E92? It certainly has E46 door handles and predates the E92 by about three years. If it was being proposed for 2002, it must have been a few years before 2002, so 2000 at the latest? Surely too early to be based on the E92 that came out in, what, 2005?
Excellent session, I really enjoyed the subject. Designers need to meet additional packaging requirements for various reasons and perhaps European tastes are given the back burner. I prefer the XM to the iX, don't understand the multi-headlight look of the new 7 series at all. The new 5 series is interesting (not attractive though) but it is really too big and therefore compromised. If you take the mid-range sector e.g E-Class, can we say we have seen a real attractive model for some time? It's more evolution than revolution. As a car enthusiast, I am racking my head to think of a real attractive looking new model from our favourite makers, e.g. Huracan replacement is too samey, Ferraris (are out of my league but) a bit outrageous. Perhaps the Lotus Emira gets my vote. The last visually appealing BMW to me was the 5 Series (E39) but I would probably go for the E30 M3 or the M1 (Supercar).
34:18 Unfortunately in today’s world people prefer that what is outside and don’t care that much about how the car is inside, handling and other. But it’s the same everywhere. Like when People rather look rich than being rich. Everything just a gimmick on social media 😓
BMW have butchered pretty much the whole series as things stand 😢
Who is tapping on the table or the microphone. OMG it's disturbing😂
I’m in the minority but I love the what bmw is doing now and I loved the bangle era. If you are a lifestyle brand that happens to sell cars, you need step out on the ledge sometimes and see what sticks.
But if so many are disparaging what you're doing maybe it's time to have a rethink, which they have. They just played too into the Chinese market, who like to buy the most garish and blingy cars possible
@PrinceOfHavendale, I am also in the minority, and love what they've done with the 7 Series. It reminds me of the E23 and E65, both of which preceded a much toned down and executive design language found in the E32, E38, the F01& F02, as well as, the G11 and G12. I expect the G70's LCI to be brought in line with the G60 5 Series, on the frontal end's design language, in the same way the E65's LCI was tidied up in 2005.
I find most of the new designs awful and i still maintain that the Bangle era 6&7 look flawed, the 3 looks good in form but not quite in detail (very generic head&tail lights) i think the suvs of that era look good, so does the 3 coupe, z4 and the 5 if not poverty specced (the designer being an Italian it all makes sense now!)
YOU DO NOT NEED 900 INDIVIDUAL DESIGNERS. PERIOD.
I met this guy at a bmw meet in va capital area bmw club
BMW should honestly think about bringing back the Master automotive designner of the E39 5 series, Joji Nagashima.
The e39 was not as good as the e34 though IMO. It was more bland, less interesting face graphics, softer, less sporty, less shark nose etc. That and the E90 were all worse than their predecessors. The Z3 was considered a joke at the time. This guy was part of the problem.
@@jonathanbowen3640z3 was not a looker at all but the E39 is pure understated handsomeness. The e34 was prettier for sure but the 39 was just so right
@@jonathanbowen3640E39 was a major advance on the E34...as safe as a modern car and much more advanced
@@adams7405 That's fine but not related to the styling. It's simply not as good as a design. It's more rounded and conventional. It also doesn't have any amazing wheels like the E34 had. (Though the M5s were pretty good) It lost sharpness that even the E34 lost of its predecessor and resulted in the inflated blob (specifically the face) that is the E60.
BMW - when Beemers become Beevers.
This is why I have not sold my F82 M4 heritage edition. I think Bmw thought they were going to capture China with the digital driving cars with no soul, overweight and shaved front end.
Good design has always had just one central mantra 'form follows function'... and grills are the single part of a car to be obsolete in the EV transition, they serve no function in an EV powertrain. So when BMW choose the grill of all things as the primary conceit in their 'new' design language, it was not just a fail in terms of aesthetics, it was a total lack of forethought in terms of longevity... it wasn't just the new cars were ugly, or even that the designs horrified fans, it was the fact all that pain, was in vain,
The first new 'built from the ground up' EV's were always destined to have zero need for a massive air intake like a grill... so as a design language, it was always destined for a shelf life shorter than a bulb of garlic...
Even just a single generation ago, BMWs were some of the nicest looking cars on the road. Now they are (mostly) among the ugliest. Holdouts are the Z4, 8 series and non-snouted 3-series. They pass by and I wince.
Some Bangle-era designs like the E85 were hard to process when new but look fantastic now. In fact, arguably, most cars on sale today are heavily influenced by those Bangle-era flame surface cars. Turns out those cars were brilliant and forward looking. What BMW is doing now is also hard to process, it's just hard to imagine it will age as well or be as influential. Maybe that's wrong, it's just so hard to see.
BMW has always been the leader in ugly designs. 90s were the last time they did good looking cars. After that all their designs went downhill
I bet the design reviews for those past few years must have been a scene out of the Emperor's new clothes tale. Everybody seeing it but nobody wanting to be dubbed negative or impolite or "backwards". I struggle to believe all these people don't have functioning eyeballs.
Also regarding the "it's better to stand for something than to stand for nothing" statement explaining the M4 front - i think it ahows the root of the problem. The truth is the exact opposite if you stand for something objectively wrong. You could literally try to explain the Nazis away by saying "they stood for something". 🙃
KIA are going down the same kid with lego bricks design as well with their EV cars.
Why are all EV wheels terrible also?
Getting back to BMW I think they have become obsessed with aggressive looks and it has gone too far. I think the genesis was with Audi and big front grilles and now it has gone too far for BMW with that and the front bumper.
Blob like SUVs, now EVs are paving the way for characterless unindividual transport so people will happily book a driverless uber instead of running their own car
Seems to me the only defenders of the designs will say "they look ok in all black with the black pack" - so when you can't see the design.
45:18 they should make this instead of XM or other ugly beasts.
BMW hired Chinese to design their new cars. There I said it. Bring back the Germans!!
I absolutely wish they’d gone with the I16 concept car with a B58 instead of that XM 🤮
B58 wouldn't have worked with the adapted i8 platform. Would have been the B48 4 cylinder
Funny how he can't simply answer the question of whether BMW messed up
They’re lost. It’s so bad they’ll lose customers in short order.
That has been said for years but their sales numbers are up
@@7ludi because the baby boomer population is large and as they age, and have more money, they can afford these cars.
Much loved? LMAO Nobody talks about the E60s. Nobody cares.
Your opinion is wrong
Thanks for the interview/discussion but the content here is politically correct and wastes time skirting around any definitive opinion. Its like all the latest designs are explained and explained.. as if to gaslight everything the constructive parts of public criticism is going on about. I didn’t come here seeking negativity, only critical thoughts. We have already heard everything domagoj dukec/hoydonk had to say in their defence.. this had no added value at all (personal opinion).
Boo hoo