Good stuff. I'll just say you guys have gotten really good at presenting to camera. It's not easy, especially when you're presenting data that could easily be boring if done poorly. Good job, I always love seeing what you're up to.
On maxing out the hydraulics: the hydraulic force is based on pressure and area. When the piston is being pushed out of the barrel there is more area engaged, i.e., higher force. I note the hydraulics are used pushing the piston into the barrel so the piston rod is reducing the area over which the pressure is applied, i.e., less force, but mostly more than good enough. So, if the piston force is not enough you will get almost double by flipping the piston and pushing away from the test point, but you will have a more "interesting" rig to setup. 😃 The other thought, on the test bed maybe, is to use the extra force to push a pulley wheel away from the back plate and run the loading line through a 2-to-1 pulley system - essentially the same force as before but twice the distance of that pull. Great work and exellent presentation. Thank you.
the only surface area that matters in a cylinder is the surface area of the piston head, also described by the diameter of the cylinder. that is the area that the force of the fluid pressure is applied to, and it pushes in a direction normal to that surface
@@mattmanmcfee36 agree. And that is what I am saying. Remember the area is different when the fluid is pushed against the full diameter, versus the smaller area when the piston rod occupies some of the pushing area. May be better explained in en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_cylinder check section "retraction force difference"
Something else that should be noted about the positive side of glue ins, especially in sedimentary rock like sandstone, is that they are less likely to create hollow spots under the surface. When rebolting, and this was very much the case with routes I rebolted around Moab, it is common to find the rock is hollow near the original bolt. Assuming the FA'ist did not place in hollow rock, this is, in my opinion, caused by two things: 1)the hole has empty space which allows for water to seep in and then freeze/thaw to weaken that inner part of the hole, and 2) the compression of the rock is actually creating and expansion joint where the mechanical parts widen inside the hole (literally, if you were going to pry off a section of rock, this is how you would do it!). So just one more reason to go with glue ins, especially when rebolting, whenever you can. GUYS.... also psyched to see that Hilti did not hold any better than Liquid Rock. Does Liquid Rock have a similar temperature range to Hilti?
Hi guys, I've been wondering about decomposed granite for a while now. The Sierra Eastside has any amount of that choss, and sometimes you just can't avoid putting an anchor in a bit of rotteneness. I had one unique "test" where on a new ground up route I encountered a detached 1500 pound shard that I carefully climbed around thinking I'd lever it off later. Below that were two really dismal wedge bolts (3/8" X 2 3/4") that just barely tightened in the rotten rock. When I pitched that block off, I watched it slide right over the bolts. I was sure I'd find two empty holes but no, I found two really battered anchors still in the totally crap rock - the hangers were bent flat, the bolts a bit stretched and bent over. I couldn't imagine that rock just not crumbling away. I removed those bolts, put two new ones in nearby, and called it good! Anyway, I'd be happy to show you any amount of rotten granite (near Ridgecrest) for some scientific testing. BTW, I studied geology in a previous life, I know how to make petrographic thin sections and I have a petrographic microscope. I've some thoughts about granite "patina", and the underlying rotteneness.
You should try a test using sandpaper to roughen the surface of the metal to allow for a better bond with the glue. I do dolly pull offs of protective coatings and with a well prepared surface I’ve never had a glue failure from metal to substrate. It would be awesome to see if it does indeed increase the strength of bond in overhanging applications.
I'm curious if a sandblasted surface on one of those boots would increase the grip of the epoxy. I'm sure someone in the biz has tested it by now and concluded it isn't worth it or doesn't matter but I would still like to see the numbers.
Or from an ease of manufatruing standpoint maybe knurl the rod before they twist it? Might add a good amount of surface area for any glue/expoxy to adhere to!
@@karicallegra8194 I think necessarily it needing to be a post processing step for Ryan's content sandblasting was the only thing I could think of to increase surface area.
I don't have data, but I would really doubt it. Rock is sooooooo much more porous than stainless. I can imagine there is some epoxy that's thin enough it would grip "rough" stainless but not "smooth" stainless, but I'd bet it either has lower breaking strength (so LR500 would be better for this application) or it's a two-part that requires actual mixing (and I can just imagine trying to mix your epoxy while on the wall). But at any rate the real question isn't if sandblasted holds better than polished steel wire but if it holds better with a specific epoxy.
I can cut 'em some slack on the 79 killanewtents figure. There's no way we can generate anything near that in real climbing situations. The glue information was very interesting and useful. 'Preciate all the hard work guys!
I'd like to see some reviews of the gear you used to get the bolts IN. Drilling into granite is no joke, and you don't want to have oversize or short holes. The bits and methods you use would be cool to see even if you can't endorse Makita or Milwaukee or whoever.
We have made several videos showing new routeing and replacing bolts where we talk about tools. Bobby loves Milwaukee and Ryan uses Makita bc he already had the bateries.
The strength of a composite is determined by the strength percentage of the epoxy and filler. Mixing rock dust into the epoxy would increase the strength of the resulting composite. How well the composite sticks to the bolt & wall of the hole is determined on how well the surface of each are wetted.
I'm not so sure about that. Most concrete anchor epoxies cure stronger on dry surfaces. AC100+, Liquid Roc 500, and HILTI 500 V3 are all reduced by 10-50% in wet base material conditions
@@rfulop I think what rustygardhouse means by "wetted" is how much of the hole and bolt surface is in contact with the wet epoxy when installing it. Dust in the hole may prevent the viscous epoxy not bonding, ie wetting, the bolt hole. You are right though, gluing in actual wet, damp conditions is not ideal and would compromise the curing of the epoxy or vinyl ester.
Having done some climbs around Moab, and specifically in Castle Valley, I would have felt a lot better clipping into these glue-ins than the manky little 3/8" bolts that were there.
Metal deformation at speed creates heat, as work is being put into the metal, work is energy is force times distance is heat. Heat makes metal slightly softer to some degree depending on the metal
I’m not a metalollolloguristathingamajiggy either… but I’m sure there are enough variables that it would be very difficult to pin down to just one that causes failures. For instance, is the barstock all from the same manufacturer? During the manufacturing of the bolts, are there variations in processes that could cause internal stresses to form differently. Heat treated? CNC made vs human made? Quality control in manufacturing? How they have been stored, handled during shipping and even during the day you installed them. Etc etc etc. NASA is a good place to create tests for this 😂 as their budget would be significantly higher and able to run the appropriate tests 😂. Seriously though guys you do excellent work. Thank you!
I wonder if combining the glue with the rock dust in the "dirty" hole made it bond better, almost like a concrete aggregate or epoxy laminate layers. Like I get that you want a clean bond between your glue and the surfaces, but that's usually if the surfaces are relatively close together. Whereas if you have larger gaps, you want a little bit of "filler" to keep bonding "surfaces" closer.
The answer is almost certainly "it depends". Technically "glue" sticks two surfaces together, "epoxy" chemically hardens a resin from a liquid into a solid and structurally fills gaps. That can also stick two surfaces together, but by filling gaps in the surfaces not actually bonding to the surface itself. It's entirely possible the crosslinking in the resin for a particular epoxy is stronger with a pure resin than it is with sandstone dust mixed in. It's also possible it isn't. The reason you're supposed to clean the hole is if the dust packs in to the voids in the rock and makes a semi-polished surface then the epoxy won't fill those voids and it will create a structurally sound solid tube that will pull straight out because it doesn't actually bond to the rock in any real way, it works by bonding to itself and putting part of itself in small voids in the rock (which is also why it doesn't "stick" to metal. there aren't voids big enough for it to flow into)
Super interesting results. Would love to see the performance of various kinds of rock when pulled in tension, particularly the quartz conglomerate here in the Gunks.
So I'm gonna say.... Cleaning the hole is probably a good idea in almost all situations but adding some grit to the glue could increase the strength. It works with mixing concrete.
Recently I climbed in Alaska and saw two of those about 8 inch apart but directly above one another never experienced these so I decided not to try my luck ( Alaska rock is crumbly….) is this a normal way to see these? What about anchors on that stay going vertical?
Does sandblasting the bolt increase the adherence of the epoxy? Might affect the corrosion resistance, so you would only want to do the bottom where the epoxy will seal it
Can you pull test a bunny ear knot with both loops cut into single legs and tied off to two different anchors? As to decrease the amount of rope a two-bolt bunny ear anchor uses. It will probably suck but might make a worthwhile test
Hey have you guys tried gluing mechanical bolts yet? I know it’s probably an outlandish idea but, what happens? Maybe it would make it stronger in certain rocks? 🤷🏻♂️
I would not bother about speed of pulling in climbing affecting anything from rock to metal MBS. The effect is real though but requires a speed of close to the speed of sound in said material and that is simply unattainable even in a freefall.
Would it be beneficial to have a welder attach like a nut or something circular to the hole end of the twisted shanks? That would give the epoxy/glue an additional place to grab onto and you would then basically be pulling against the entire slug of epoxy. Would be interesting to see if it helped.
I’m talking about welding a nut basically sideways to the very bottom of the shank. Use a nut that has a diameter small enough not to require a larger diameter drilled hole in your anchor point. The nut will be welded “sideways” so that the hole in the nut is basically 90 perpendicular to the shaft of the anchor.
You don't even need that. If the last 1/2" of the bolt would be straight intstead of twisted, it would prevent the bolt from turning. In the videos ot's clearly shown, that the bolts start to turn after the rock/concrete arround the straight bit right at the eye failed. Only aftrwards do they start to turn, so having a straight end section would probably increase the mbs significantly without additional costs in manufacturing.
In older videos you were consistently unkind to products that didn't hit their MBS with your non-standard breaking methods, but in this video you certainly changed your tune. Hopefully future videos get a similar treatment.
Has anyone made anchors from stainless wire rope? I'd like to see a twisted 6mm wire rope anchor (swaged at tip and just below the eye to maintain the shape and twist). 6mm stainless wire rope has approx 30kN MBS (so ~60kN for a twisted pair) and would possibly have better surface cohesion with the glue than a twisted solid bar. It would also conform to where the load was, and possibly spread the strain across multiple bend radii (this is one of the advantages of wire rope, and why it's used in cable cars etc). I only have a hydraulic anchor tester at my disposal so I can't generate anywhere near the loads required to break this stuff. Does anyone want to make some of these? I figure it would be even easier to fabricate than the bolts tested in this video. Just get some 6mm stainless wire rope, twist it relatively tightly with an eye in one end, and then compression swage it at the tip and just below the eye. The swages may be the problem as they would increase the nominal hole diameter, but holes are usually over-drilled by a couple of millimeters, and these swages are purely to hold the shape until the anchor is placed. It doesn't need to be a swage at all. It could be a twist of wire rope dipped in glue to hold it's shape. EDIT: This is inspired by the fact that we use wire rope anchors (big ones) when doing geo-stabilisation jobs to hold up rock fall fences etc. It's not an original idea, but I don't know if it's been experimented with in the climbing world.
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Good stuff. I'll just say you guys have gotten really good at presenting to camera. It's not easy, especially when you're presenting data that could easily be boring if done poorly. Good job, I always love seeing what you're up to.
I was thinking the same thing. Very professional and still able to mix in jokes etc.
Great job! Sounds like you guys learned a lot about pull out methods.
On maxing out the hydraulics: the hydraulic force is based on pressure and area. When the piston is being pushed out of the barrel there is more area engaged, i.e., higher force. I note the hydraulics are used pushing the piston into the barrel so the piston rod is reducing the area over which the pressure is applied, i.e., less force, but mostly more than good enough.
So, if the piston force is not enough you will get almost double by flipping the piston and pushing away from the test point, but you will have a more "interesting" rig to setup. 😃
The other thought, on the test bed maybe, is to use the extra force to push a pulley wheel away from the back plate and run the loading line through a 2-to-1 pulley system - essentially the same force as before but twice the distance of that pull.
Great work and exellent presentation. Thank you.
the only surface area that matters in a cylinder is the surface area of the piston head, also described by the diameter of the cylinder. that is the area that the force of the fluid pressure is applied to, and it pushes in a direction normal to that surface
@@mattmanmcfee36 agree. And that is what I am saying.
Remember the area is different when the fluid is pushed against the full diameter, versus the smaller area when the piston rod occupies some of the pushing area.
May be better explained in en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_cylinder check section "retraction force difference"
Something else that should be noted about the positive side of glue ins, especially in sedimentary rock like sandstone, is that they are less likely to create hollow spots under the surface. When rebolting, and this was very much the case with routes I rebolted around Moab, it is common to find the rock is hollow near the original bolt. Assuming the FA'ist did not place in hollow rock, this is, in my opinion, caused by two things: 1)the hole has empty space which allows for water to seep in and then freeze/thaw to weaken that inner part of the hole, and 2) the compression of the rock is actually creating and expansion joint where the mechanical parts widen inside the hole (literally, if you were going to pry off a section of rock, this is how you would do it!). So just one more reason to go with glue ins, especially when rebolting, whenever you can. GUYS.... also psyched to see that Hilti did not hold any better than Liquid Rock. Does Liquid Rock have a similar temperature range to Hilti?
Thanks. LR500 SUCKS to squeeze out of the fun when it’s cold. Like 50 degrees F (10C). That’s the only downside
@@HowNOT2 would wrapping the tube with a hot hands back warmer thing keep it warm for long enough?
Hi guys, I've been wondering about decomposed granite for a while now. The Sierra Eastside has any amount of that choss, and sometimes you just can't avoid putting an anchor in a bit of rotteneness. I had one unique "test" where on a new ground up route I encountered a detached 1500 pound shard that I carefully climbed around thinking I'd lever it off later. Below that were two really dismal wedge bolts (3/8" X 2 3/4") that just barely tightened in the rotten rock. When I pitched that block off, I watched it slide right over the bolts. I was sure I'd find two empty holes but no, I found two really battered anchors still in the totally crap rock - the hangers were bent flat, the bolts a bit stretched and bent over. I couldn't imagine that rock just not crumbling away. I removed those bolts, put two new ones in nearby, and called it good!
Anyway, I'd be happy to show you any amount of rotten granite (near Ridgecrest) for some scientific testing.
BTW, I studied geology in a previous life, I know how to make petrographic thin sections and I have a petrographic microscope. I've some thoughts about granite "patina", and the underlying rotteneness.
that sounds like a great test to run, hope they follow up with you
Could be interesting. Tons of variation in granite. Wild story!
You should try a test using sandpaper to roughen the surface of the metal to allow for a better bond with the glue. I do dolly pull offs of protective coatings and with a well prepared surface I’ve never had a glue failure from metal to substrate. It would be awesome to see if it does indeed increase the strength of bond in overhanging applications.
I'm curious if a sandblasted surface on one of those boots would increase the grip of the epoxy. I'm sure someone in the biz has tested it by now and concluded it isn't worth it or doesn't matter but I would still like to see the numbers.
Or from an ease of manufatruing standpoint maybe knurl the rod before they twist it? Might add a good amount of surface area for any glue/expoxy to adhere to!
@@karicallegra8194 I think necessarily it needing to be a post processing step for Ryan's content sandblasting was the only thing I could think of to increase surface area.
I don't have data, but I would really doubt it. Rock is sooooooo much more porous than stainless. I can imagine there is some epoxy that's thin enough it would grip "rough" stainless but not "smooth" stainless, but I'd bet it either has lower breaking strength (so LR500 would be better for this application) or it's a two-part that requires actual mixing (and I can just imagine trying to mix your epoxy while on the wall). But at any rate the real question isn't if sandblasted holds better than polished steel wire but if it holds better with a specific epoxy.
I appreciate the click-bait title. You're becoming quite the master baiter.
Maybe put Twist leg bolt on the title of this video. This is super good info. I am gonna start using these.
I can cut 'em some slack on the 79 killanewtents figure. There's no way we can generate anything near that in real climbing situations. The glue information was very interesting and useful. 'Preciate all the hard work guys!
I'd like to see some reviews of the gear you used to get the bolts IN. Drilling into granite is no joke, and you don't want to have oversize or short holes. The bits and methods you use would be cool to see even if you can't endorse Makita or Milwaukee or whoever.
We have made several videos showing new routeing and replacing bolts where we talk about tools. Bobby loves Milwaukee and Ryan uses Makita bc he already had the bateries.
I would love to see a video of pulling cams out of wet sandstone vs dry sandstone
That title though
Based & red pilled
Thanks capn obvious
😂
The strength of a composite is determined by the strength percentage of the epoxy and filler. Mixing rock dust into the epoxy would increase the strength of the resulting composite. How well the composite sticks to the bolt & wall of the hole is determined on how well the surface of each are wetted.
I'm not so sure about that. Most concrete anchor epoxies cure stronger on dry surfaces. AC100+, Liquid Roc 500, and HILTI 500 V3 are all reduced by 10-50% in wet base material conditions
@@rfulop I think what rustygardhouse means by "wetted" is how much of the hole and bolt surface is in contact with the wet epoxy when installing it. Dust in the hole may prevent the viscous epoxy not bonding, ie wetting, the bolt hole. You are right though, gluing in actual wet, damp conditions is not ideal and would compromise the curing of the epoxy or vinyl ester.
Love your work! Comenting for the algorithm 🌻
Love the result on Liquid Rock 500, as it has been my choice. $$, simple caulking gun, strength
Having done some climbs around Moab, and specifically in Castle Valley, I would have felt a lot better clipping into these glue-ins than the manky little 3/8" bolts that were there.
Excellent material. Thankyou
Super good enough pull out game.
I enjoyed this and got a lot out of it. I bolt using RE500. Remember though that a concrete driveway is not rock.
Your Poured Concrete slabs.
What psi of concrete?
3500
4000
5000
6000
12,000 ?
Good question. 30+ year old un reinforced driveway.
Have you tried sanding a bolt to get better adhesion
Metal deformation at speed creates heat, as work is being put into the metal, work is energy is force times distance is heat.
Heat makes metal slightly softer to some degree depending on the metal
I’m not a metalollolloguristathingamajiggy either… but I’m sure there are enough variables that it would be very difficult to pin down to just one that causes failures. For instance, is the barstock all from the same manufacturer? During the manufacturing of the bolts, are there variations in processes that could cause internal stresses to form differently. Heat treated? CNC made vs human made? Quality control in manufacturing? How they have been stored, handled during shipping and even during the day you installed them. Etc etc etc. NASA is a good place to create tests for this 😂 as their budget would be significantly higher and able to run the appropriate tests 😂. Seriously though guys you do excellent work. Thank you!
Big bolts big drills deep holes lots of glue and you'll be fine. Was there any small stuff like "how tiny can we go?"
I wonder if combining the glue with the rock dust in the "dirty" hole made it bond better, almost like a concrete aggregate or epoxy laminate layers. Like I get that you want a clean bond between your glue and the surfaces, but that's usually if the surfaces are relatively close together. Whereas if you have larger gaps, you want a little bit of "filler" to keep bonding "surfaces" closer.
The answer is almost certainly "it depends". Technically "glue" sticks two surfaces together, "epoxy" chemically hardens a resin from a liquid into a solid and structurally fills gaps. That can also stick two surfaces together, but by filling gaps in the surfaces not actually bonding to the surface itself. It's entirely possible the crosslinking in the resin for a particular epoxy is stronger with a pure resin than it is with sandstone dust mixed in. It's also possible it isn't. The reason you're supposed to clean the hole is if the dust packs in to the voids in the rock and makes a semi-polished surface then the epoxy won't fill those voids and it will create a structurally sound solid tube that will pull straight out because it doesn't actually bond to the rock in any real way, it works by bonding to itself and putting part of itself in small voids in the rock (which is also why it doesn't "stick" to metal. there aren't voids big enough for it to flow into)
Super interesting results. Would love to see the performance of various kinds of rock when pulled in tension, particularly the quartz conglomerate here in the Gunks.
So I'm gonna say....
Cleaning the hole is probably a good idea in almost all situations but adding some grit to the glue could increase the strength.
It works with mixing concrete.
Recently I climbed in Alaska and saw two of those about 8 inch apart but directly above one another never experienced these so I decided not to try my luck ( Alaska rock is crumbly….) is this a normal way to see these? What about anchors on that stay going vertical?
Wow, super duper good enough!
Does sandblasting the bolt increase the adherence of the epoxy? Might affect the corrosion resistance, so you would only want to do the bottom where the epoxy will seal it
I wonder if an appropriate primer on the bolts would increase glue strength?
Can you pull test a bunny ear knot with both loops cut into single legs and tied off to two different anchors? As to decrease the amount of rope a two-bolt bunny ear anchor uses. It will probably suck but might make a worthwhile test
It's pretty cool that you can pull a plastic rope through what is essentially a steel pin.
Is there a way to get those twisted glue ins in the US?
Yes, Team-Tough is a USA distributor of Bolt Products' Twist Bolts.
Just out of curiosity, have you ever used JB Weld?
This one will break your back before it breaks, and this one, and this one, and that one, and that one too...
10:20 ish...so is not cleaning the hole better???
Hey have you guys tried gluing mechanical bolts yet? I know it’s probably an outlandish idea but, what happens? Maybe it would make it stronger in certain rocks? 🤷🏻♂️
They should sandblast the twisted part to give the glue some tooth to grab on to.
@3.55 That 4 inches looked 6 inches to me too.
Jim needs to downrate the MBS on his bolts.
Wait Ryan, is wet sandstone stronger?
who cares about bolts. Bobby hair is amazing!
The main difference in break strength of this steel has to do with prior unknown of what a dee twenty will do on your saving throw.
thanks !! interesting !
They should reverse the twist like halfway down the shaft
If they changed the twist radius as they twisted it, it couldn't rotate out without breaking the cement.
You gotta put a glue-in in glue and give it away just for the memes
I would not bother about speed of pulling in climbing affecting anything from rock to metal MBS.
The effect is real though but requires a speed of close to the speed of sound in said material and that is simply unattainable even in a freefall.
I agree that welds have no place in climbing equipment
#pulloutking 🤴
At this point are you testing bolts or rocks?
Interesting
Would it be beneficial to have a welder attach like a nut or something circular to the hole end of the twisted shanks? That would give the epoxy/glue an additional place to grab onto and you would then basically be pulling against the entire slug of epoxy. Would be interesting to see if it helped.
I’m talking about welding a nut basically sideways to the very bottom of the shank. Use a nut that has a diameter small enough not to require a larger diameter drilled hole in your anchor point. The nut will be welded “sideways” so that the hole in the nut is basically 90 perpendicular to the shaft of the anchor.
You don't even need that. If the last 1/2" of the bolt would be straight intstead of twisted, it would prevent the bolt from turning.
In the videos ot's clearly shown, that the bolts start to turn after the rock/concrete arround the straight bit right at the eye failed. Only aftrwards do they start to turn, so having a straight end section would probably increase the mbs significantly without additional costs in manufacturing.
👍
come on dont do my mom like that.
You should test glue In bolts pulled in shear at a 90 degree angle
I never did see the video that discloses what the buttplug on the gear wall is for. Please holler,been curious for years.😂
Hey brother, last minute invite, we are dropping ellisons next weekend, we had a couple people bail out, would you like to join us.? If so hit us up,
In older videos you were consistently unkind to products that didn't hit their MBS with your non-standard breaking methods, but in this video you certainly changed your tune. Hopefully future videos get a similar treatment.
*that's what she said.
Has anyone made anchors from stainless wire rope? I'd like to see a twisted 6mm wire rope anchor (swaged at tip and just below the eye to maintain the shape and twist). 6mm stainless wire rope has approx 30kN MBS (so ~60kN for a twisted pair) and would possibly have better surface cohesion with the glue than a twisted solid bar. It would also conform to where the load was, and possibly spread the strain across multiple bend radii (this is one of the advantages of wire rope, and why it's used in cable cars etc).
I only have a hydraulic anchor tester at my disposal so I can't generate anywhere near the loads required to break this stuff. Does anyone want to make some of these? I figure it would be even easier to fabricate than the bolts tested in this video. Just get some 6mm stainless wire rope, twist it relatively tightly with an eye in one end, and then compression swage it at the tip and just below the eye. The swages may be the problem as they would increase the nominal hole diameter, but holes are usually over-drilled by a couple of millimeters, and these swages are purely to hold the shape until the anchor is placed. It doesn't need to be a swage at all. It could be a twist of wire rope dipped in glue to hold it's shape.
EDIT: This is inspired by the fact that we use wire rope anchors (big ones) when doing geo-stabilisation jobs to hold up rock fall fences etc. It's not an original idea, but I don't know if it's been experimented with in the climbing world.
First
Um...