Loved the first statement “I assume not, cause I’m still here” I wonder how many of us were laughing and thinking the same thing 😂 every time I sharpie a rope I wonder about it and then am like, well it’s all been good so far!
I understand it’s more difficult to do, but it would be interesting to do the break test on a rope that has been marked for a long time (a few years). Chemistry can work slowly ; maybe the ink degrades the fibers over a long period of time…
@@lewan1905 What makes you so sure that what remains is chemically neutral ? And even if it seems obvious, the point of this channel is to put « obvious » knowledge to the test… and sometimes show that it’s not as obvious or true as everybody seems to know…
When testing ropes, cords or webbing, you should consider having "tensionless" fixtures on each end of the piece being tested. For rope testing, manufacturers use a non-rotating thick wall steel pipe that is many times the diameter of the rope. They wrap the rope at least 5 wraps, laid next to each wrap, and then anchor off the end with a knot or clamp. By doing the testing this way, the ultimate tensile strength of the rope is revealed, instead of knot strength, because the bend radius is shallow enough to distribute the load throughout the fibers, and there is enough wraps to reduce the load way down at the final knot or clamp. Thus for your "Sharpie" test, you might be able to see that the chemicals weaken the rope's ultimate tensile strength.
Great comment. As someone who does laboratory research/testing I wholeheartedly agree. Did not know the exact procedure either, that's very smart. The key to most tests is really specifying the restraints.
@@demoman2 Yeah that would produce fantastic labratory results. Thats not what he is going nor is it super helpful, most of the sports industry isnt using frictionless in labratory settings. The practical application of this that with somewhat recently marked rope your rope is much more likely to fail in the knot then where there is a little bit of sharpie. Yes it may degrade the strength ever so slightly when tested in a lab but if its going to fail long before in everday conditions is it really that important? That why you use redundancies.
@@edgarchambersv2020 Came here to say this. While I agree, to find the ultimate strength, use the knotless method, but tbh I don't care. As a climber, I am going to be using knots. As long as the knot remains the braking point, sharpies are a-okay.
As a process engineer i'd like to say that this is a great idea, and also state that material compatibility testing is more comprehensive than this. It would probably involve soaking a rope in either material (sharpie ink or the rope marker material) for different timespans, say 1 hour, 1 day, 1 week, 1 month, and testing at those time intervals. Of course, you also have to perform a measurement systems analysis beforehand and establish your confidence intervals. Based on standard deviation between samples of fresh rope (your control), you can estimate the sample size needed to establish variation in the mean break values. The stress/strain curve will have multiple outputs from tensile strength to elongation &c &c. Thanks! cool video!!!
The dual location is an absolute positive. Gives you a break from presenting, we know you love talking though haha, but I like that you allow others to present their information themselves, and it gives the videos more variety so the backdrop isn't always the same. Seeing Brent's setup was also really cool. either way, you put out great videos. keep having fun and giving us more info than we will really ever need.
I love cavers! I study a lot of their rescue techniques. Its more of a comment about being a little neurotic about gear and easily distracted by shiny things. I think a few of us fall into that category. 😂
What's being attacked by this channel, although inadvertently, are a whole bunch of caving myths previously stated as facts. Personally, I love it. And yes, I am a caver!
You know he wasn't a Caver, an equipment wall covered in strange descenders but I had to look really really carefully to see his one ascender and not one light either ;) I heat shrink plastic on the end of my ropes but his nail polish method looks easier.
You can mark the middle of the rope by taking apart some colorful acessory cord and sewing the threads through the mantle for few inches, Easy to spot also in the dark or when rope gets dirty by feel, and those threads never come off by themselves.
Yes i read about this experiment, they basically proved that the beal stuff (that is actually rebranded Tiflex inkpad ink) do affect the rope a little.
Chemical resistance is a combination of time/temperature so it might be interesting to do something over a period of time at temperatures that simulate a closed up car in the desert. Additionally, it is pretty common to do an accelerated chem res test under strain. The fact that the solvent is essentially gone might negate the effect but this would be more of a real world test for the sharpie. I suspect that sharpies aren't too bad considering they are alcohol-based versus something like acetone in nail polish. Some other ideas on things to test from a chem res perspective would be DEET, picaridin and water, if they haven't been covered in previous videos (there are so many it's hard to keep track)
Ropes have been marked up with Sharpies for decades. People report that ropes break at a knot, a splice, a section change but we haven't heard, AFAIK, about ropes being liable to break where they have been marked. This surely would have drawn attention by now.
I've never seen a write up on the chemical reaction that takes place which would degrade the strength of any part of the rope. Unfortunately, most people don't understand "not recommended" can mean anything from "ours lawyers made us do it" to "you will die".
If you would like your rope ends to be even brighter, put on a base coat of white and then just before it loses all of it’s tackiness, apply your color choice. Full disclosure…..I’ve done this to several items but never rope. See if you can find fluorescent orange (yellow, whatever contrasts the rope color) and apply a thin coat so the white can glow through. I was amazed at how much brighter the white base makes the top coat. Might take some experimentation on rope. EDIT: I’m back with a highly visible bizarre idea. LED lighted nocks for hunting arrows super glued inside the end of the rope. The power switch is at the bottom of the string notch so still accessible. Yeah, twisted mind here, but it would be BRIGHT. 👊😎
In canyoning is useful to mark the end of the rope with marks signaling the length of the rope. Example 6 stripes for a 60 Mt. Rope etc. Or a personal coded mark
marked all my ropes for years although i use edelrid industrial super static which is apparently resistant to chemicals etc i have been told that it is bad but i would worry about human error in the rigging before worrying about that
I'd be interested in similar for dyneema slings, some manufacturers would advise to chuck them if they have had tape on them, which seems a bit overly cautious! I'd offer to send you one but I'm in the UK so it's a bit of a trek...
The beal stuff is actually rebranded Tiflex inkpad ink. If you go to pro office shop in europe you can find it for about half the price. It's exactly the same with the roller and all.
Seeing the creep in the end of that rope makes me wonder why folks have gotten away from whipping the ends like used to be done. You can even use hi-vis thread to make a very easily seen end. While I can't say that whipping would stop the rope creep, I think it would certainly help. Relying on the "butane backsplice" or super glue is great, but even a common whipping would add yet another layer of insurance and is easy to do. Also, painting the ends is great, but if you want a real bright finish, paint the rope with white paint first. When you go over that white with the prettier red or orange, you'll see a huge difference in how bright the topcoat is. Old trick used to paint rifle and bow sights.
@HowNOT2 pro tip, you don’t need to wait for the super glue to dry. If you sprinkle just a very small amount of baking soda on the super glue infused rope (or any super glue joint) it will instantly harden due to a chemical reaction between the two components.
Now I'm not a climber, but the subject of climbing interests me. So I think out the box per say. Can you use fabric dye? Since your taking the time to locate the center of the rope, it shouldn't take too much longer to use a sacrificial container, and dip the center of the rope in fabric dye. This way not just the outer sheath would dye, but all the way through, as a more complete marking.
Box stores tend to have only one viscosity of superglue. I wonder if you’d find it any easier to soak the ends with a thinner glue. I’ve found that hobby shops tend to have cyanoacrylates by Bob Smith Industries. Woodworking shops tend to have products by FastCap. Both have at least four viscosities. Both also sell accelerators that nearly instantly set the glue, with the supposed detriment of a marginally reduced strength. They sell conventionally sized bottles and significantly larger bottles, which could be a benefit if you’re doing large batches. If not, it’s kind of a liability because the bottle can get pretty crusty, despite the higher quality glue being more stable over time. Cheers.
I seriously doubt the pugment would do anything, it's the solvent you should worry about. Another way of testing this would be to just use a tiny offcut and put it in a container of the solvent and see if it disolves or changes the material in some other way. If it doesn't you should be fine not matter how you apply it. Or if you want to be extra safe you could make a test length like this a completely soak the test portion before letting it dry and performing this test to determine if any amount would cause an issue.
@@TheAkashicTraveller The solvent used in Sharpies is, according to the MSDS, composed of Butanol, Propanol, Diacetone and Ethanol Alcohols. It is also, again according to the MSDS, not chemically incompatible with anything, and will not cause hazardous polymerization. So it's probably safe.
I’m starting to think, and this is purely my suspicion, we don’t really care what format you do. Just make interesting videos! On the upside, you can have unrestrained creative freedom! The downside is, you have very little direction from us since we will always just think it was a good video.
Excellent video! I can't even complain about the length b/c of ALL the great content. Love the magic teleporting Sharpie! And excellent comments as well. Wow, a lot of really great suggestions! Hope you can pursue them. Correct me (silently, gently, kindly?) if I misunderstand, but just because the knot broke doesn't mean there was NO decrease in strength due to either rope marker, it just means the knot was weaker than the marked and unmarked, unknotted sections of the rope, correct? But the good news is that any decrease in strength (based on this very limited sample size of two, as you wisely point out, thank you!) was not less than the weakness presented by the knot (ROM 50%-ish). As for nail polish or anything that stiffens the end of a rope, possibly not a good idea for ice climbers who may thread their ropes through an A- or V-thread and need the ends to be flexible. Again, thanks to you AND to commenters who "learnt" me a thing or two! (Hmmm.... chemical reactions over time AND temp, good to know!)
Can you let one of the sharpie marks sit for some time as my concern with sharpie was degradation an chemical weakening of the sheath/core. Love the info and data you provide, its my jam. Knowledge and understanding dispels fear!
I've used ropes that were marked with a sharpie that we used for SAR training. We kept good logs for each rope and would get 7 years of use out of a rope with loads far higher than a climber or canyoneer would ever see. But that is with proper storage and maintaining the ropes. I will say that you should follow the rope manufacturer's advice for marking ropes.
I never put ink on my rope. I've used a sail maker needle to add a colored nylon cord for various purposes. Such as warning me the slack end is 25 and 10 feet away. As in caves one can't always see where rope protection ends. .
One think more. Lets assume that knot you use have strength of 80%, so if for example sharpie reduce strength to 90% you can not discover it. I think it is time to find a way to fix a rope without knots. Something like capstan maybe?
Conclusion: A knot reduces the strength of the rope more than a sharpie. We already know a knot reduces rope strength by 25-50% or more. No way shapie ink will.
You should mark whole long sections with sharpie and tie the knots there, and compare that to unmarked knots! As of now you're marking the strongest sections, which would require quite large amounts of strength reductions to show up in the tests.
As someone who has been using Sharpies on all sorts of materials for a great many years, I wouldn't expect them to damage anything non-porous...it's all surface marking, and doesn't change the underlying material. That's why it comes off some materials very easily. I have used markers that are genuinely permanent...as a kid, I marked some toys with such a marker, and have regretted it ever since...but Sharpies don't do that.
I bought a black diamond rope marker and it almost seemed like a sharpie but didn't have a strong smell like a Sharpie does...I have used a Sharpie on some things and sometimes it does slightly eat away at some adhesives, so I'm guessing it's slightly acidic, but not enough to damage modern ropes
I just simply use some thread to mark the middle. Wrap it around and it holds pretty well. It has to be redone every year or so, also sometimes it can catch on stuff if you do it incorrectly. Otherwise I find it very astetic
Hi @HowNOT2, I think edelrid did a lot of research, the DAV(German Alpine) club and the Berg&steigen too. They found out that the abrasion resistance is lower after marking the Rope, about 50% is lost of your MB-Strength. So in the case of lowering f.E. a higher load (like 2People in an emergency) over an edge, it could potentially fail at the marking! Maybe you could verify this somehow, cheers!
Hey guys, what about using tattoo ink instead of sharpie ink, reputable tattoo ink is made of natural components that in theory suppose not to negatively affect as other chemical ink will do.
could there be a UV component confounding things? black absorbs radiation, but the two compositions may be differently absorbent in the ultraviolet part of the electomagnetic spectrum
22:46 Strength tests of solvent dyed ropes using knots to attach the tensiometer only tells us the dye does not weaken it more than the attachment knots! (Duh!) To test the rope body strength (including the dye patch), you must use a "tree wrap" attachment rather than knots.
I was told that sharpies cause the rope to degrade faster, so perhaps the issues would be a few years down the line. Not sure if there's any truth in that, though.
Sharpies have been used as long as Sharpie has been around and there has never been an incident where a rope broke or the sheath deteriorated from its use. I think the myth that it will destroy ropes was propagated by companies that make rope markers.
@@kevinmokracek5078 The biggest concern is affecting the UV resistance of the rope. Also, black ink means it would soak up more heat, potentially causing issues. But the chemicals themselves are nonreactive with nylon, or really any other material that ropes are made out of
I'm digging the intro scene change ups on occasion, even just a different interior location 👍 also 100% support the name change, I think its the absolute best way to widen the audience and viewer base, you can now how not to: literally anything! even cooking eggs or cleaning out airless sprayers 😉 everyone out there better subscribe or ill track you down and force you to watch shawn snyders youtube videos! You've been warned!🤣👍
are wet ropes weaker? I feel like it cant be the case, otherwise rain=death... thus, unless there's a chemical reaction between the plastic of the rope and the ink, there shouldn't be a noticeable change in strength, that's my guess
Awesome video as always. Just wondering why you didn't use a friction knot? It wouldn't compromise the rope at the knot then. Is supposed to take it alot closer to it's real breaking strength. Also I like the multi location of this..... You need to up your gear wall 😉
Perhaps let some samples hang out with the sharpie for a while? Or figure out what the "Concerning" Chemical is in the sharpie and just pour that on a rope and see if that hurts it
i would worry about the end of the rope getting stuck in a mallion rap! maybe just a quarter inch or so of paint on the ends, not as much as in the video!
Im really missing testing of EDK on this channel. It's actually used to join the 2 ends of a cordelette or abseil line quite some times. (Especially if you want to tie in a prusik directly into a closed carabiner)
Sharpie is an alcohol based dye stain. Alcohol doesn’t damage plastics. In reality you would have to soak a piece of rope for a long time in a bucket of aggressive chemicals to permanently weaken the fibres.The knot weakens the rope by up to 40% anyways, which is obviously the limiting factor.
I don't know anything and didn't even watch the whole video so forgive me if this was addressed but my understanding is that a knot takes away 50% of the ropes strength, so unless the sharpie outright melted the rope the knot is still the weakest point. I feel like the sharpie should have been applied to the rope inside the knot, right where the rope is stressed most. Please feel free to light me up if I'm wrong.
You aren’t wrong, but basically the perspective being if this was a legitimate concern to the rope then the damage would have to be severe else… yeah the knot is still the weakest point in this whole system. Would be nice to have a large redirect for the rope to see if there is any change, but this is a test for practical purposes.
I'd love to use Beal on my static rope...but they seem to have discontinued the Beal Rope Marker. My research shows Epping 3000 is approved by many rope manufacturers and Black Diamond has their water based marker pen but it and the Epping are sharp pointed applicators and it would take a lot to do 8-10" at dark enuff to see in low light or other. I see some folks seem to think that water based laundry markers would not degrade rope and provide a reliable mark for ??? Any suggestions on this thorny issue?
If you think marking ropes with sharpie is suspect I have seen a sailing channel slather a Dymeema shroud shackle in boat soup (boiled linseed oil, pine tar and mineral turpentine).
Would a better way to test for loss of strength after marking the rope be to ensure it breaks at the marked rope? We learned that knots seem to reduce rope strength more than a sharpie or rope marker. Could you pull both ends of the rope at one end of your test bed while passing the rope over a very narrow carabiner and expect the rope to predictably break at the sharp bend?
Check out our canyoning gear! hownot2.com/collections/all-canyoning
Loved the first statement “I assume not, cause I’m still here” I wonder how many of us were laughing and thinking the same thing 😂 every time I sharpie a rope I wonder about it and then am like, well it’s all been good so far!
I understand it’s more difficult to do, but it would be interesting to do the break test on a rope that has been marked for a long time (a few years).
Chemistry can work slowly ; maybe the ink degrades the fibers over a long period of time…
yeah this would be interesting!
My thoughts too...
Its not the ink that you have to worry about. Its the solvents in which the colour is dissolved in. And those evaporate fully in minutes to hours
@@lewan1905 that was my thought. I don't know any situation where a marked rope over time has been the cause of a accident.
@@lewan1905 What makes you so sure that what remains is chemically neutral ?
And even if it seems obvious, the point of this channel is to put « obvious » knowledge to the test… and sometimes show that it’s not as obvious or true as everybody seems to know…
thank you for panning on the squirrel, we all needed that.
I couldn’t help it
When testing ropes, cords or webbing, you should consider having "tensionless" fixtures on each end of the piece being tested. For rope testing, manufacturers use a non-rotating thick wall steel pipe that is many times the diameter of the rope. They wrap the rope at least 5 wraps, laid next to each wrap, and then anchor off the end with a knot or clamp. By doing the testing this way, the ultimate tensile strength of the rope is revealed, instead of knot strength, because the bend radius is shallow enough to distribute the load throughout the fibers, and there is enough wraps to reduce the load way down at the final knot or clamp. Thus for your "Sharpie" test, you might be able to see that the chemicals weaken the rope's ultimate tensile strength.
Yeah that would get you more consistent results. Don't know if the sharpie would affect it though
Great comment. As someone who does laboratory research/testing I wholeheartedly agree. Did not know the exact procedure either, that's very smart. The key to most tests is really specifying the restraints.
@@demoman2 Yeah that would produce fantastic labratory results. Thats not what he is going nor is it super helpful, most of the sports industry isnt using frictionless in labratory settings. The practical application of this that with somewhat recently marked rope your rope is much more likely to fail in the knot then where there is a little bit of sharpie. Yes it may degrade the strength ever so slightly when tested in a lab but if its going to fail long before in everday conditions is it really that important? That why you use redundancies.
@@edgarchambersv2020 Came here to say this. While I agree, to find the ultimate strength, use the knotless method, but tbh I don't care. As a climber, I am going to be using knots. As long as the knot remains the braking point, sharpies are a-okay.
Would be interesting but kinda irrelevant because if the painted part is stronger than a knot it's super good enough
As a process engineer i'd like to say that this is a great idea, and also state that material compatibility testing is more comprehensive than this. It would probably involve soaking a rope in either material (sharpie ink or the rope marker material) for different timespans, say 1 hour, 1 day, 1 week, 1 month, and testing at those time intervals. Of course, you also have to perform a measurement systems analysis beforehand and establish your confidence intervals. Based on standard deviation between samples of fresh rope (your control), you can estimate the sample size needed to establish variation in the mean break values. The stress/strain curve will have multiple outputs from tensile strength to elongation &c &c. Thanks! cool video!!!
The dual location is an absolute positive. Gives you a break from presenting, we know you love talking though haha, but I like that you allow others to present their information themselves, and it gives the videos more variety so the backdrop isn't always the same. Seeing Brent's setup was also really cool. either way, you put out great videos. keep having fun and giving us more info than we will really ever need.
100% agree x million
Caving feels personally attacked by Canyoneering's sly little comments about clean and shiny gear...
😭
I love cavers! I study a lot of their rescue techniques. Its more of a comment about being a little neurotic about gear and easily distracted by shiny things. I think a few of us fall into that category. 😂
What's being attacked by this channel, although inadvertently, are a whole bunch of caving myths previously stated as facts. Personally, I love it. And yes, I am a caver!
You know he wasn't a Caver, an equipment wall covered in strange descenders but I had to look really really carefully to see his one ascender and not one light either ;) I heat shrink plastic on the end of my ropes but his nail polish method looks easier.
@@bd1saul I think the caving comments was joking!
@@tomtom4405 that’s because the crolls and basics are all on my harnesses. 😉 I don’t have a Pantin yet and would like to learn to rope-walk.
You can mark the middle of the rope by taking apart some colorful acessory cord and sewing the threads through the mantle for few inches, Easy to spot also in the dark or when rope gets dirty by feel, and those threads never come off by themselves.
I've seen it done with dental floss.
This sounds like it would cause much more damage than any Sharpie ever could...
@@DavideFossati You're only really sewing between the strands of the sheath. If done right it doesn't damage anything.
@@DavideFossati I'm no chemist, but if it is the solvents and their effects we are not sure about, then this is definitely a better way...
german DAV and mammut recommend the edding 3000 pen, easy to find in europe
That’s classic. And a nice fetish to have.
Yes i read about this experiment, they basically proved that the beal stuff (that is actually rebranded Tiflex inkpad ink) do affect the rope a little.
Best jump cut today and TOTALLY appropriate.
Can’t wait to see some more canyoning content. Would love to hear more about the different ropes Brent has been testing.
Chemical resistance is a combination of time/temperature so it might be interesting to do something over a period of time at temperatures that simulate a closed up car in the desert. Additionally, it is pretty common to do an accelerated chem res test under strain. The fact that the solvent is essentially gone might negate the effect but this would be more of a real world test for the sharpie. I suspect that sharpies aren't too bad considering they are alcohol-based versus something like acetone in nail polish. Some other ideas on things to test from a chem res perspective would be DEET, picaridin and water, if they haven't been covered in previous videos (there are so many it's hard to keep track)
Ropes have been marked up with Sharpies for decades. People report that ropes break at a knot, a splice, a section change but we haven't heard, AFAIK, about ropes being liable to break where they have been marked. This surely would have drawn attention by now.
I've never seen a write up on the chemical reaction that takes place which would degrade the strength of any part of the rope. Unfortunately, most people don't understand "not recommended" can mean anything from "ours lawyers made us do it" to "you will die".
I was scrolling through to find out why anyone thought this would be an issue. I still don't really think it is.
If you would like your rope ends to be even brighter, put on a base coat of white and then just before it loses all of it’s tackiness, apply your color choice.
Full disclosure…..I’ve done this to several items but never rope. See if you can find fluorescent orange (yellow, whatever contrasts the rope color) and apply a thin coat so the white can glow through.
I was amazed at how much brighter the white base makes the top coat.
Might take some experimentation on rope.
EDIT: I’m back with a highly visible bizarre idea. LED lighted nocks for hunting arrows super glued inside the end of the rope. The power switch is at the bottom of the string notch so still accessible. Yeah, twisted mind here, but it would be BRIGHT. 👊😎
Oh yeah I use the technique with spray paint
I liked this! Any format with your channel seems to work
In canyoning is useful to mark the end of the rope with marks signaling the length of the rope. Example 6 stripes for a 60 Mt. Rope etc. Or a personal coded mark
marked all my ropes for years although i use edelrid industrial super static which is apparently resistant to chemicals etc i have been told that it is bad but i would worry about human error in the rigging before worrying about that
I'd be interested in similar for dyneema slings, some manufacturers would advise to chuck them if they have had tape on them, which seems a bit overly cautious! I'd offer to send you one but I'm in the UK so it's a bit of a trek...
Sharpie ink uses an alcohol blend as the solvent, and I can't think of any rope that would have issues. Testing various solvents would be neat though
I have always used water-based latex or acrylic paints. Needs to be redone after a while, but no solvents that might weaken the rope.
The beal stuff is actually rebranded Tiflex inkpad ink. If you go to pro office shop in europe you can find it for about half the price. It's exactly the same with the roller and all.
Seeing the creep in the end of that rope makes me wonder why folks have gotten away from whipping the ends like used to be done. You can even use hi-vis thread to make a very easily seen end. While I can't say that whipping would stop the rope creep, I think it would certainly help. Relying on the "butane backsplice" or super glue is great, but even a common whipping would add yet another layer of insurance and is easy to do.
Also, painting the ends is great, but if you want a real bright finish, paint the rope with white paint first. When you go over that white with the prettier red or orange, you'll see a huge difference in how bright the topcoat is. Old trick used to paint rifle and bow sights.
I want to see more of Brent's cat...
@HowNOT2 pro tip, you don’t need to wait for the super glue to dry. If you sprinkle just a very small amount of baking soda on the super glue infused rope (or any super glue joint) it will instantly harden due to a chemical reaction between the two components.
Atwood ropes out Ohio! Great company and family to another big RUclipsr Roman Atwood! Time to take Roman climbing!
Now I'm not a climber, but the subject of climbing interests me. So I think out the box per say. Can you use fabric dye? Since your taking the time to locate the center of the rope, it shouldn't take too much longer to use a sacrificial container, and dip the center of the rope in fabric dye. This way not just the outer sheath would dye, but all the way through, as a more complete marking.
I have always wondered how to find out the effects of suncream on ropes and harnesses. Are you able to please show us that?
Box stores tend to have only one viscosity of superglue. I wonder if you’d find it any easier to soak the ends with a thinner glue. I’ve found that hobby shops tend to have cyanoacrylates by Bob Smith Industries. Woodworking shops tend to have products by FastCap. Both have at least four viscosities. Both also sell accelerators that nearly instantly set the glue, with the supposed detriment of a marginally reduced strength.
They sell conventionally sized bottles and significantly larger bottles, which could be a benefit if you’re doing large batches. If not, it’s kind of a liability because the bottle can get pretty crusty, despite the higher quality glue being more stable over time. Cheers.
Maybe you should wait more time, so the sharpie´s ink would act and could compromise the rope strength.
I seriously doubt the pugment would do anything, it's the solvent you should worry about. Another way of testing this would be to just use a tiny offcut and put it in a container of the solvent and see if it disolves or changes the material in some other way. If it doesn't you should be fine not matter how you apply it.
Or if you want to be extra safe you could make a test length like this a completely soak the test portion before letting it dry and performing this test to determine if any amount would cause an issue.
@@TheAkashicTraveller The solvent used in Sharpies is, according to the MSDS, composed of Butanol, Propanol, Diacetone and Ethanol Alcohols. It is also, again according to the MSDS, not chemically incompatible with anything, and will not cause hazardous polymerization. So it's probably safe.
I’m starting to think, and this is purely my suspicion, we don’t really care what format you do. Just make interesting videos!
On the upside, you can have unrestrained creative freedom!
The downside is, you have very little direction from us since we will always just think it was a good video.
The duel locations was 👍🏾🤟🏻
The best way of finishing a cut Kermantle rope end, is to use a bunsen burner and a glass test tube.
I actually used the beal marker but i found that the rope got stiffed. The carabiner trick is great. Thank you
Hi Brent! Nice to see you again.
Excellent video! I can't even complain about the length b/c of ALL the great content. Love the magic teleporting Sharpie! And excellent comments as well. Wow, a lot of really great suggestions! Hope you can pursue them. Correct me (silently, gently, kindly?) if I misunderstand, but just because the knot broke doesn't mean there was NO decrease in strength due to either rope marker, it just means the knot was weaker than the marked and unmarked, unknotted sections of the rope, correct? But the good news is that any decrease in strength (based on this very limited sample size of two, as you wisely point out, thank you!) was not less than the weakness presented by the knot (ROM 50%-ish). As for nail polish or anything that stiffens the end of a rope, possibly not a good idea for ice climbers who may thread their ropes through an A- or V-thread and need the ends to be flexible. Again, thanks to you AND to commenters who "learnt" me a thing or two! (Hmmm.... chemical reactions over time AND temp, good to know!)
Fun fact, nail polish also is a quick and dirty substitute for whipping the ends of your ropes.
“Please don’t die and blame me.”
You heard it here first. Ghosts exist!
13:40 "uh oh Holly, you're gonna get a mustache!" :D these dudes were fun to learn from.
I appreciate the squirell cam xD
Can you let one of the sharpie marks sit for some time as my concern with sharpie was degradation an chemical weakening of the sheath/core. Love the info and data you provide, its my jam.
Knowledge and understanding dispels fear!
I've used ropes that were marked with a sharpie that we used for SAR training. We kept good logs for each rope and would get 7 years of use out of a rope with loads far higher than a climber or canyoneer would ever see. But that is with proper storage and maintaining the ropes. I will say that you should follow the rope manufacturer's advice for marking ropes.
I never put ink on my rope. I've used a sail maker needle
to add a colored nylon cord for various purposes. Such
as warning me the slack end is 25 and 10 feet away. As
in caves one can't always see where rope protection ends. .
One think more. Lets assume that knot you use have strength of 80%, so if for example sharpie reduce strength to 90% you can not discover it. I think it is time to find a way to fix a rope without knots. Something like capstan maybe?
The transition to the lab got me😂
Good stuff in this one. Yeah the two seperate locations were nicely done.Thanks for learning :)
18:30 Savage!!!
Great transition BTW
Sharpie actually makes TEC markers (Trace Element Controled) which are safe for marking ropes. (source on this is PMI Dynamics). About 10$ a POP...
Good to see me and Ryan have the same attention span. Notices squirrel instantly starts following it lol
Conclusion: A knot reduces the strength of the rope more than a sharpie.
We already know a knot reduces rope strength by 25-50% or more. No way shapie ink will.
Haha exactly! I’ve marked my ropes for years. But it’s cool to know the science
You should try applying the superglue then right away apply baking soda to chemically harden the glue.
You should mark whole long sections with sharpie and tie the knots there, and compare that to unmarked knots! As of now you're marking the strongest sections, which would require quite large amounts of strength reductions to show up in the tests.
ouuu i like the split screen breaks!
« Don’t do it, die and then blame me »
As someone who has been using Sharpies on all sorts of materials for a great many years, I wouldn't expect them to damage anything non-porous...it's all surface marking, and doesn't change the underlying material. That's why it comes off some materials very easily. I have used markers that are genuinely permanent...as a kid, I marked some toys with such a marker, and have regretted it ever since...but Sharpies don't do that.
7:40ishh
@Squirrel
I bought a black diamond rope marker and it almost seemed like a sharpie but didn't have a strong smell like a Sharpie does...I have used a Sharpie on some things and sometimes it does slightly eat away at some adhesives, so I'm guessing it's slightly acidic, but not enough to damage modern ropes
Its probably not acidic but has organic solvents in it (which is where the strong smell comes from)
I just simply use some thread to mark the middle. Wrap it around and it holds pretty well. It has to be redone every year or so, also sometimes it can catch on stuff if you do it incorrectly. Otherwise I find it very astetic
I liked how you did the magic trick with the sharpie teleportation back to your lab. Haha. I did like the dual location video.
Hi @HowNOT2,
I think edelrid did a lot of research, the DAV(German Alpine) club and the Berg&steigen too.
They found out that the abrasion resistance is lower after marking the Rope, about 50% is lost of your MB-Strength.
So in the case of lowering f.E. a higher load (like 2People in an emergency) over an edge, it could potentially fail at the marking!
Maybe you could verify this somehow,
cheers!
After the stretch test it looks like the spots with the ink are thinner than the rest of the sheath. Is that real or just an optical illusion? 21:38
This is why women wear black clothes.
I've been wondering about this for a long time!
"Don't die and then blame me"
lol
I just run fluro floss through the loops of the mantle in a spiral. Visible enough, and kind classy.
Nice to include experts
Entertaining and insightful 👏 keep up the great work Ryan and the team
It would be nice to see the results from sharpy applied say a couple of months or longer ago...
Can you do sharpie on a belay loop, please? A friend wrote her name on the inside of the belay loop of her climbing harness 🤦♂️
Your Videos! are @mazing! Thanks for the fun and educational videos. You have a Demolition Ranch vibe recently!
Be nice to test it after the ink has been on for a few weeks to see if it degrades the fibre over time.
Hey guys, what about using tattoo ink instead of sharpie ink, reputable tattoo ink is made of natural components that in theory suppose not to negatively affect as other chemical ink will do.
could there be a UV component confounding things? black absorbs radiation, but the two compositions may be differently absorbent in the ultraviolet part of the electomagnetic spectrum
fun fact: Atwood rope company, is owned by Roman Atwoods family. so it's a fun little youtube connection.
22:46 Strength tests of solvent dyed ropes using knots to attach the tensiometer only tells us the dye does not weaken it more than the attachment knots! (Duh!) To test the rope body strength (including the dye patch), you must use a "tree wrap" attachment rather than knots.
I was told that sharpies cause the rope to degrade faster, so perhaps the issues would be a few years down the line. Not sure if there's any truth in that, though.
Sharpies have been used as long as Sharpie has been around and there has never been an incident where a rope broke or the sheath deteriorated from its use. I think the myth that it will destroy ropes was propagated by companies that make rope markers.
@@kevinmokracek5078 likely true. But to test it, one would have to use a rope that was marked a while ago.
@@kevinmokracek5078 The biggest concern is affecting the UV resistance of the rope. Also, black ink means it would soak up more heat, potentially causing issues. But the chemicals themselves are nonreactive with nylon, or really any other material that ropes are made out of
Great video, awesome information!
I'm digging the intro scene change ups on occasion, even just a different interior location 👍 also 100% support the name change, I think its the absolute best way to widen the audience and viewer base, you can now how not to: literally anything! even cooking eggs or cleaning out airless sprayers 😉 everyone out there better subscribe or ill track you down and force you to watch shawn snyders youtube videos! You've been warned!🤣👍
are wet ropes weaker? I feel like it cant be the case, otherwise rain=death... thus, unless there's a chemical reaction between the plastic of the rope and the ink, there shouldn't be a noticeable change in strength, that's my guess
I'm wondering how should I mark the middle of my *black* rope...
Wish you would have done a rope that had been marked for a season or two...
Im still here too.
Edit: I don't soak the hell out of my ropes with the sharpie though.....
How about using tensionless knots?
More cat !!!
Awesome video as always. Just wondering why you didn't use a friction knot? It wouldn't compromise the rope at the knot then. Is supposed to take it alot closer to it's real breaking strength. Also I like the multi location of this..... You need to up your gear wall 😉
Where can I find those alien looking figure 8 belay devices he has on his wall? They look amazing :D
Found it. One is called CRITR2
Perhaps let some samples hang out with the sharpie for a while? Or figure out what the "Concerning" Chemical is in the sharpie and just pour that on a rope and see if that hurts it
How long did you wait between saturating the rope and testing it? Also, I liked the dual-location format.
Now I'm wondering off the marker affects desheathing strength. Could maybe be an issue in a two rope rappel?
i would worry about the end of the rope getting stuck in a mallion rap! maybe just a quarter inch or so of paint on the ends, not as much as in the video!
Im really missing testing of EDK on this channel. It's actually used to join the 2 ends of a cordelette or abseil line quite some times. (Especially if you want to tie in a prusik directly into a closed carabiner)
We test one in the video coming out Wednesday. We will probably test it more on the Drop tower
@@HowNOT2 AWESOME!
Sharpie is an alcohol based dye stain. Alcohol doesn’t damage plastics. In reality you would have to soak a piece of rope for a long time in a bucket of aggressive chemicals to permanently weaken the fibres.The knot weakens the rope by up to 40% anyways, which is obviously the limiting factor.
SQUIRREL!! 🐿️
Saturate the knot with sharpie?
I don't know anything and didn't even watch the whole video so forgive me if this was addressed but my understanding is that a knot takes away 50% of the ropes strength, so unless the sharpie outright melted the rope the knot is still the weakest point. I feel like the sharpie should have been applied to the rope inside the knot, right where the rope is stressed most. Please feel free to light me up if I'm wrong.
You aren’t wrong, but basically the perspective being if this was a legitimate concern to the rope then the damage would have to be severe else… yeah the knot is still the weakest point in this whole system. Would be nice to have a large redirect for the rope to see if there is any change, but this is a test for practical purposes.
when you talk about climbing stuff and the best climber in the world (with build in fall protection) walks by 😂
I'd love to use Beal on my static rope...but they seem to have discontinued the Beal Rope Marker. My research shows Epping 3000 is approved by many rope manufacturers and Black Diamond has their water based marker pen but it and the Epping are sharp pointed applicators and it would take a lot to do 8-10" at dark enuff to see in low light or other. I see some folks seem to think that water based laundry markers would not degrade rope and provide a reliable mark for ??? Any suggestions on this thorny issue?
Can you guys test home made slings? Like tied with waterknot or even home sewn. Asking for a friend😉
Would love to see tests with prussics in series instead of knots.
If you think marking ropes with sharpie is suspect I have seen a sailing channel slather a Dymeema shroud shackle in boat soup (boiled linseed oil, pine tar and mineral turpentine).
What about PlastiDip? Much more aggressive solvents, but then again it evaporates out pretty quick.
Would a better way to test for loss of strength after marking the rope be to ensure it breaks at the marked rope? We learned that knots seem to reduce rope strength more than a sharpie or rope marker. Could you pull both ends of the rope at one end of your test bed while passing the rope over a very narrow carabiner and expect the rope to predictably break at the sharp bend?