I enjoyed the episode immensely, however, it was a bit triggering to know the data in less developed continents, the media coverage regarding women being older than men in marriages, and some of the beliefs behind men picking younger. I'm from South America and my perspective is that some of the numbers connected to the idea of fertility might be related to misogyny that has been nested throughout centuries. It made me feel like women have the only role of procreating through men's lens. Thank you for studying everything meticulously and also using careful language to discuss such delicate topics. You're the best Dr. Kirk!
When I was 15 I was with a man 7 years older than me. At 20 I was with a man 17 years older than me. Both were abusive. I didn’t grow up with abusive parents myself but had a traumatic (non sexual) betrayel happen at around age 6 which I think made me search for someone I thought was older, more mature and could provide calm and security. The first man was emotionally, physically, verbally and sexually abusive. The second one verbally. I don’t say it is because they were older. But this experience and having so many much older men hitting on me, and also going to clubs and having older married men hitting on me make me sad. I also keep seeing other younger women having this experience when they go out. It icks me out now because I feel like often it is about control, I feel like I am devalued as a person everything a man lusts after me because of youth, my body, the way I look, etc. It also make me insecure because I feel like I depend on my look, what do I then have that somebody could want if it/when it one day starts to fade/change. Am I loveable as a person? Will he stay and love me? Or will he start to chase younger models like the men who chase/chased me. I know it is not like that with someone you love and you should try to trust and not think like that, insecurity just has a way of creeping in when you have been made a trophy based on your looks. I am now what a man 3 (2 years and 9 months hahah) years older than me, he is very loving and kind. About the age gap it is also nice to be closer in age, I find there is more similarities and I don’t need to worry as much about being left a widow or as a care taker at a younger age and also hanging out in friend groups. I know anything can happen at any age and you can also have a lot of similarities with someone older, age is not everything, but for me now I think I prefer a age difference 0-5 years in romantic relatiobships. I also want to add that I have also dated other guys that were 10+ years older and some of them very good and I didn’t think about the age gap, have also dated younger (only a few years) and same age. But after all - Love is love.
In terms of children, I'm surprised you didn't talk about the impact of having a parent die when you're still a child, or having a parent who doesn't have the energy to play with you as a child. If you were conceived when your father was 75, and he dies before you're 10, and was never able to sit on the floor to play with you or run around with you, what impact does that have on development and attachment? How stressful is it for the mother to be caring for both a toddler and an ageing or dying partner, and what impact does that have on her ability to parent well?
Joan Collins is going to be 91 years old in 2024 and her husband is 32 years younger than she is. His name is Percy Gibson. Go look it up! Tina Turner was 17 years older than her husband, Erwin Bach. They were together many years. She died last year of course.
This was so interesting as someone in an age gap relationship. I don’t think anybody ever frets over us. I mean maybe they do behind my back but I don’t really care I love my husband he’s such a good man is a great provider and protector and companion. He’s 43 I am 25
With the comparison with BDSM community and trauma... there are very few discussions surrounding this and the advocates of the BDSM community (I'm in Seattle) are not open to discussions about trauma responses as to avoid kink shaming.
Huh, I love the ideas that challenge what a "successful" or "failed" marriage is. I think to me, the success of my relationships hinge around the satisfaction level of the partners and how the relationship ends. If I leave a relationship respectfully, more evolved, more equipped to be a good partner, and/or with a bigger capacity for love, then in the greater context of my life, it was a success.
I'd say we need to stop phrasing age difference itself as the problematic quality. Exploitative power dynaics are the problem. To me this is analogous to sexuality, which isn't problematic in itself: we need education and consent. Similarly people taking advantage of youth inexperience is a problem, like any way someone holds power over another
This rerun couldn’t have popped up at a better time. A friend of mine’s baby daddy (he’s 40 with 3 kids he’s been extremely wishy washy with for 15 years!) suddenly got married to a freshly turned 19 year old girl. It blindsided everyone, including her family who thought she was a missing person, as she suddenly left her college and left the USA for Canada… without telling anyone and shows up here, married to this man. There’s nothing anyone can do because she is technically an adult. The authorities were called and she says she’s happy and wants to stay. The baby daddy, well he’s stonewalled everyone and even blocked her mom (and I’m assuming other friends and family) on social media, without even talking to them! The entire situation is a red flag. Writing this comment before listening to the episode. Will update if I feel necessary!
My friend is in a similar relationship expect he's not married to her yet, they wanna wait a few years but sounds like dude in your scenario just wanted flat out control and marrying her as soon as she turned 19 is a red flag for control cuz even my friends don't wanna marry just yet.
@@kj4920 that’s exactly how we feel. Especially with isolating her from her entire life. He’s never talked to the mom, so why block her! It’s honestly very scary and super triggering for my friend. Her and I met in a group for women to recover from abuse… so we know he is a predator. Ugh!!!!
@@kj4920 also, forgot to add, sorry to hear your friend is going through similar! Let’s hope that it ends up being a positive experience for them!!! 😬😬😬
two of my best friends are in their late 20s (27 and 29) and are married to people that are 39 and 43 respectively! The older friend got married when she was 23 or 24 and he was 37!
ok but the weird part about woody allen's is not the age gap, it's that he is her step dad lol. Also Jay Z and Beyonce allegedly started dating when she was a teen so that's fishy too imo.
This is one of those episodes where Kirk gets seemingly very irritated by Berto and responds in a asshole-ish way. It’s ok to especulate 😅 I’m glad they you guys have worked your differences out in recent episodes. 😊
@@PsychologyInSeattle or maybe not? Sometimes I can be very sensitive to tone, which I perceive incorrectly at times. But I felt uncomfortable at times during this podcast. I think you both have made improvements over the years!
@PsychologyInSeattle Is there any qualitative research on offspring of large age-gap relationships--how it affected them, how they fare as adults, their resulting attitudes toward their adult relationships, etc.?
I wonder if there's a point at which the age gap is so big that the older person dying during the marriage becomes more likely than divorce. For example if a 45 year old marries an 80 year old, and then the 80 year old dies at 83. Would you consider that relationship to be more successful than younger relationships which divorced after 10 years? In terms of power dynamics, when the older person is so old that they're becoming physically frail, I would worry about whether the younger person might be abusing the older person. If a 22 year old was with a 50 year old, I would worry about the 22 year old. If the 22 year old was with an 80 year old, I might instead be worried about the 80 year old, depending on levels of economic, social, and physical power. I think the important thing in a relationship is are both people in the relationship of their own free will, do they care for each other and treat each other well? A big age gap can increase the probability that one person is being manipulated especially if the young person is very young, but you can also have same-age relationships which are very abusive and controlling. The age gap can be a cause for concern, but it isn't by itself an actual problem.
Humberto (not sure about his age in this one) is okay with dating a girl 20 years younger, but can’t date a woman at 70 which will almost be the same difference. 20 years is a big difference, when the woman is 40 her husband is gonna be 60. There is also a big gap from 25-45. Not saying it is wrong and you can have friends with age gaps and spouses, but there is a gap and some difference imo. Also men can have children all their life, BUT the bigger the age gap between the man and woman then sceince says there is a bigger risk for birth defects. Also in generel the older the man the bigger the risk for mutations etc and fertility is there but it also lowers, so men if they want children for sure ideally shouldn’t wait until 50, 60, 70.
Berto is speculating about societies as if hierarchies are always a part of it. Not hunter gatherer or matriarchal or agrarian. He seems to be assuming that humans will naturally fight for dominance. Hmmmm. Not so.
all of human history is blood and struggle. we are not bonobos, unfortunately. small pockets of isolated societies still have a hierarchy, even if they are not violent within themselves. a matriarchy is by definition a hierarchy. agrarian societies exacerbated the need for bloody competition for land.
I just turned 40, dating a 23 year old. I’m male, she’s female. We’ve been dating for the past 5 years. One of the reasons I date her is for her youth & sexual appetite. Women my age and older (I’ve been married once before) and been dating my entire adult life since I was 16-17 yrs old; lose sexual drive & urge quickly. I also date this woman because she doesn’t have children, which is a big plus as well. Being a step father or dating a woman with kids that aren’t yours is a thankless job. I’ve always dated outside my race as well. I’m half white half Filipino, always dated black women (not sure if that’s even relevant), but wanted to add. Just my 2 cents in this topic.
so youre major reasons are because shes young and she likes sex? not because you guys connect you actually genuinely like her for who she is 😭 youre not helping your case here. stereotypical old man
Women your age don't lose sexual drive, I know it from personal experience.its up to Person,as you haven't try to fuck every women your age on this planet,so its ridiculous to clame: women my age. Good luck.
I enjoyed the episode immensely, however, it was a bit triggering to know the data in less developed continents, the media coverage regarding women being older than men in marriages, and some of the beliefs behind men picking younger. I'm from South America and my perspective is that some of the numbers connected to the idea of fertility might be related to misogyny that has been nested throughout centuries. It made me feel like women have the only role of procreating through men's lens. Thank you for studying everything meticulously and also using careful language to discuss such delicate topics. You're the best Dr. Kirk!
When I was 15 I was with a man 7 years older than me. At 20 I was with a man 17 years older than me. Both were abusive. I didn’t grow up with abusive parents myself but had a traumatic (non sexual) betrayel happen at around age 6 which I think made me search for someone I thought was older, more mature and could provide calm and security. The first man was emotionally, physically, verbally and sexually abusive. The second one verbally. I don’t say it is because they were older.
But this experience and having so many much older men hitting on me, and also going to clubs and having older married men hitting on me make me sad. I also keep seeing other younger women having this experience when they go out. It icks me out now because I feel like often it is about control, I feel like I am devalued as a person everything a man lusts after me because of youth, my body, the way I look, etc. It also make me insecure because I feel like I depend on my look, what do I then have that somebody could want if it/when it one day starts to fade/change. Am I loveable as a person? Will he stay and love me? Or will he start to chase younger models like the men who chase/chased me. I know it is not like that with someone you love and you should try to trust and not think like that, insecurity just has a way of creeping in when you have been made a trophy based on your looks.
I am now what a man 3 (2 years and 9 months hahah) years older than me, he is very loving and kind. About the age gap it is also nice to be closer in age, I find there is more similarities and I don’t need to worry as much about being left a widow or as a care taker at a younger age and also hanging out in friend groups.
I know anything can happen at any age and you can also have a lot of similarities with someone older, age is not everything, but for me now I think I prefer a age difference 0-5 years in romantic relatiobships. I also want to add that I have also dated other guys that were 10+ years older and some of them very good and I didn’t think about the age gap, have also dated younger (only a few years) and same age.
But after all - Love is love.
In terms of children, I'm surprised you didn't talk about the impact of having a parent die when you're still a child, or having a parent who doesn't have the energy to play with you as a child. If you were conceived when your father was 75, and he dies before you're 10, and was never able to sit on the floor to play with you or run around with you, what impact does that have on development and attachment? How stressful is it for the mother to be caring for both a toddler and an ageing or dying partner, and what impact does that have on her ability to parent well?
Joan Collins is going to be 91 years old in 2024 and her husband is 32 years younger than she is. His name is Percy Gibson. Go look it up!
Tina Turner was 17 years older than her husband, Erwin Bach. They were together many years. She died last year of course.
This was so interesting as someone in an age gap relationship. I don’t think anybody ever frets over us. I mean maybe they do behind my back but I don’t really care I love my husband he’s such a good man is a great provider and protector and companion. He’s 43 I am 25
With the comparison with BDSM community and trauma... there are very few discussions surrounding this and the advocates of the BDSM community (I'm in Seattle) are not open to discussions about trauma responses as to avoid kink shaming.
Huh, I love the ideas that challenge what a "successful" or "failed" marriage is. I think to me, the success of my relationships hinge around the satisfaction level of the partners and how the relationship ends. If I leave a relationship respectfully, more evolved, more equipped to be a good partner, and/or with a bigger capacity for love, then in the greater context of my life, it was a success.
1:23:27 "we're stupid as humans my god we're so dumb" was the best bit of this episode 😂
I'd say we need to stop phrasing age difference itself as the problematic quality. Exploitative power dynaics are the problem. To me this is analogous to sexuality, which isn't problematic in itself: we need education and consent.
Similarly people taking advantage of youth inexperience is a problem, like any way someone holds power over another
This rerun couldn’t have popped up at a better time. A friend of mine’s baby daddy (he’s 40 with 3 kids he’s been extremely wishy washy with for 15 years!) suddenly got married to a freshly turned 19 year old girl. It blindsided everyone, including her family who thought she was a missing person, as she suddenly left her college and left the USA for Canada… without telling anyone and shows up here, married to this man.
There’s nothing anyone can do because she is technically an adult. The authorities were called and she says she’s happy and wants to stay.
The baby daddy, well he’s stonewalled everyone and even blocked her mom (and I’m assuming other friends and family) on social media, without even talking to them! The entire situation is a red flag.
Writing this comment before listening to the episode. Will update if I feel necessary!
My friend is in a similar relationship expect he's not married to her yet, they wanna wait a few years but sounds like dude in your scenario just wanted flat out control and marrying her as soon as she turned 19 is a red flag for control cuz even my friends don't wanna marry just yet.
@@kj4920 that’s exactly how we feel. Especially with isolating her from her entire life. He’s never talked to the mom, so why block her! It’s honestly very scary and super triggering for my friend. Her and I met in a group for women to recover from abuse… so we know he is a predator. Ugh!!!!
@@kj4920 also, forgot to add, sorry to hear your friend is going through similar! Let’s hope that it ends up being a positive experience for them!!! 😬😬😬
two of my best friends are in their late 20s (27 and 29) and are married to people that are 39 and 43 respectively! The older friend got married when she was 23 or 24 and he was 37!
ok but the weird part about woody allen's is not the age gap, it's that he is her step dad lol. Also Jay Z and Beyonce allegedly started dating when she was a teen so that's fishy too imo.
This is one of those episodes where Kirk gets seemingly very irritated by Berto and responds in a asshole-ish way. It’s ok to especulate 😅
I’m glad they you guys have worked your differences out in recent episodes. 😊
Did I? Oof.
@@PsychologyInSeattle or maybe not? Sometimes I can be very sensitive to tone, which I perceive incorrectly at times. But I felt uncomfortable at times during this podcast. I think you both have made improvements over the years!
@PsychologyInSeattle Is there any qualitative research on offspring of large age-gap relationships--how it affected them, how they fare as adults, their resulting attitudes toward their adult relationships, etc.?
There is a bigger risk of different birth defects.
I wonder if there's a point at which the age gap is so big that the older person dying during the marriage becomes more likely than divorce. For example if a 45 year old marries an 80 year old, and then the 80 year old dies at 83. Would you consider that relationship to be more successful than younger relationships which divorced after 10 years?
In terms of power dynamics, when the older person is so old that they're becoming physically frail, I would worry about whether the younger person might be abusing the older person. If a 22 year old was with a 50 year old, I would worry about the 22 year old. If the 22 year old was with an 80 year old, I might instead be worried about the 80 year old, depending on levels of economic, social, and physical power.
I think the important thing in a relationship is are both people in the relationship of their own free will, do they care for each other and treat each other well? A big age gap can increase the probability that one person is being manipulated especially if the young person is very young, but you can also have same-age relationships which are very abusive and controlling. The age gap can be a cause for concern, but it isn't by itself an actual problem.
Humberto (not sure about his age in this one) is okay with dating a girl 20 years younger, but can’t date a woman at 70 which will almost be the same difference. 20 years is a big difference, when the woman is 40 her husband is gonna be 60. There is also a big gap from 25-45. Not saying it is wrong and you can have friends with age gaps and spouses, but there is a gap and some difference imo. Also men can have children all their life, BUT the bigger the age gap between the man and woman then sceince says there is a bigger risk for birth defects. Also in generel the older the man the bigger the risk for mutations etc and fertility is there but it also lowers, so men if they want children for sure ideally shouldn’t wait until 50, 60, 70.
Lol is Berto still using that hotmail account?
I think she does matter but so does personality
32-55?
Can we have an anthropologist in the chat to confirm or deny? 😅
Berto is speculating about societies as if hierarchies are always a part of it. Not hunter gatherer or matriarchal or agrarian. He seems to be assuming that humans will naturally fight for dominance. Hmmmm. Not so.
all of human history is blood and struggle. we are not bonobos, unfortunately. small pockets of isolated societies still have a hierarchy, even if they are not violent within themselves. a matriarchy is by definition a hierarchy. agrarian societies exacerbated the need for bloody competition for land.
There have been matriarchal societies.
I just turned 40, dating a 23 year old. I’m male, she’s female. We’ve been dating for the past 5 years. One of the reasons I date her is for her youth & sexual appetite. Women my age and older (I’ve been married once before) and been dating my entire adult life since I was 16-17 yrs old; lose sexual drive & urge quickly. I also date this woman because she doesn’t have children, which is a big plus as well. Being a step father or dating a woman with kids that aren’t yours is a thankless job. I’ve always dated outside my race as well. I’m half white half Filipino, always dated black women (not sure if that’s even relevant), but wanted to add. Just my 2 cents in this topic.
so youre major reasons are because shes young and she likes sex? not because you guys connect you actually genuinely like her for who she is 😭 youre not helping your case here. stereotypical old man
Women your age don't lose sexual drive, I know it from personal experience.its up to Person,as you haven't try to fuck every women your age on this planet,so its ridiculous to clame: women my age.
Good luck.
Yikes, because of her youth and blackness? Sincerely, a young black woman (but with children lol)