Some points not mentioned: - the artificer’s tool restriction while casting Arty spells - the artificer’s access to Magic Stone - if your table bans the peace and twilight cleric, they may also ban the chronurgist
I played a Harengon ArtiChron (Art 1/Wiz X) in a short-lived Strahd game and it is *so* much fun. At low levels, the BA hop came in clutch for escaping enemies, and the overall feel of the build is super slick. I will always love my lil Bucky Scorsby.
One thing unmentioned is that artificer gets magic stone. Which when paired with tiny servants can net you (1d6+5)x3 on a bonus action!!! Also thorn whip for forced movement on arti uses int instead of wisdom!
I thought the Artificers Spellcasting restrictions (I.e. having to hold tools in your hand to cast artificer spells) would come into play here as a negative for the artificer.
I agree - makes taking Warcaster necessary, or, conversely, only prepping out-of-combat spells (or just juggling tools). I agree with you, though, that's a definite negative. Clerics can get away with a shield as their holy symbol, keeping your other hand free for your wizard focus.
Perfectly timed video as usual. I’m rolling up a Chronorgy Wizard for session 0 tonight! Excited for the build video. One question tho, I’ll be doing a peace cleric dip. Should I start with it at level 1 or wait til level 2? The campaign is starting at level 3
I look forward to the full video. I'm currently playing an Artichron on a westmarch server, and he does great every game I play. I'm level 10, so just one more level until I can really have some fun with arcane abeyance.
I just don't think any feature matches up to the racial bonuses provided by playing a yuan-ti pureblood or an eladrin/shadar-kai so I usually consider my racial slot spoken for
I've been running some math on peace cleric dips recently, and they are just disgusting. Like...I was calculating whether the party damage suffered more if you didn't have someone with a peace dip, or if gloomstalker ranger was banned at your table, and...it did depend on party composition and level, and how often you would get hints of upcoming combat to put up emboldening bond in advance, but the scenarios where peace cleric meant more damage were not outlandish--pretty much just involved two power attackers in the party. (And this is before considering the arguably bigger peace dip benefits like saving throws and skill checks). So...yeah, if the DM actually allows Peace dips, someone should take one (DMs, if you ban one thing for power level, Peace dip is a good candidate). Another interesting question with Cleric dips is whether you want your first level to be in Cleric or Wizard. Primarily this is a choice between proficiency in INT saves or CHA saves (but taking level 1 in Cleric does also give you 1 more net HP). I've been coming around to the idea that a decent amount of the time you will generally want the better INT saves than CHA saves. Chances are there are other people in the party good at CHA saves. Chances are there are not other people in the party good at INT saves, and if your party gets hit by, for example, a Mindflayer's Mind Blast (60 foot cone) you really want at least one person to make the saving throw. Do check with the party, though, as there are a couple unexpected classes with INT saves. (Druid and Rogue are the ones that might catch you off-guard). Usually there will be a lot more party members with high CHA saves, however.
I've long felt that the focus on Constitution saving throw proficiency over Wisdom saving throw proficiency for casters is a bit miscalculated. Protecting concentration is the ultimate goal. My experience is that protecting concentration through solid positioning and tactics is much easier in earlier levels compared to higher levels when enemies have access to more ranged options, stronger spells, and legendary actions. In my mind this makes Constitution saving throw proficiency much more important in later tiers of play. Debilitating Wisdom saving throws are prevalent throughout play. That being said the leveling format for full casters that I follow looks something like this: 4th level = half-feat with bump to primary casting stat (18), 8th level = ASI for +2 to primary casting stat (20), 12th level = Resilient Con or Wis. Having both Constitution and Wisdom saving throw proficiency and a maxed casting stat by level 12 is ideal. A deficiency in either is highly problematic in higher levels. This makes Constitution saving throw proficiency at level 1 less important, and why I think class/subclass features are more important when determining which dip is better, especially for Wizards. Ultimately I think this one comes down to what subclasses are available at your table and preference.
Hi Mike, I’m currently making a build which uses the stars druid as a dip for wizards to become an extremely reliable concentrator and counterspeller (starry form’s dragon giving reliable tallent for those checks). idk if that would be a good option for this build or if its too niche for its talent to shine. Could I have your input on how to make it work?
I know 1 level dips are super popular among optimizers, but I've always really struggled to see them as optimal for Wizards. Being behind on spell level progression is particularly punishing unless you have an equally powerful way to upcast lower level spells (conjure animals, spirit guardians). Wizards get back to back to back super powerful spells, and putting those off feels like too much of a sacrifice. At levels 3, 5, 7, 9, etc., you're going to feel significantly weaker. That being said, Peace is dumb, and I consider it off limits personally. But if you are playing with other optimizers, someone will probably have it if its allowed, and having a second Peace cleric is way less impactful.
I agree with 5, but at 7 there are several nice things to upcast into the 4th level slot: Hold Person 3 targets, Tashas Mind Whip 3 targets, making 3 Tiny Servants instead of 1, and honestly Hypnotic Pattern is still good as a 4th level spell even with no upcasting benefits. Later, things like Summon Greater Demon Scale nicely, as does the duration of e.g. planar binding
I don't think I've ever heard of a DM banning Peace and Twilight Clerics but not Chronugists. It's one of the only subclasses that can easily be argued is more broken than Peace and Twilight.
Adding a 2 lvl of Artificer with the mind sharpener infusion makes con saves all but irrelevant. Something most players would add with Warcaster at some point.
I would look for solutions that don't require multiclassing, even if they're not as good so long as they're good enough. Points 1 and 2 are like two sides of the same coin in that they both address AC. I would take one of the races that have natural armor. Cast Blur at low levels or if I was planning on being in melee. What have wizards usually done with low AC... keep their distance. Point 3 just take the Resilient Feat and add CON saves. Point 4 take the Hermit background or any other that gives you the Herbalism Kit prof. and make healing potions during your downtime.
I don't understand the single level dip. Unless you really like Spell Mastery you can go 4 levels in either Cleric or Artificer and not only have the ASI you'd get but also the sub-class features for Artificer and access to entire spell list of both. Taking 4 levels of either doesn't stop your spell progression and there is nothing tied to your Wizard level other than slightly less spells you could prepare. I'm pretty sure there isn't much difference between preparing 19 spells or 23 spells when a few of them are Rituals you don't need to prepare. Heck you can even go just 2 levels in either and get Infusions for Artificers or the entire spell for Cleric but you do lose an ASI which could be worth it.
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Some points not mentioned:
- the artificer’s tool restriction while casting Arty spells
- the artificer’s access to Magic Stone
- if your table bans the peace and twilight cleric, they may also ban the chronurgist
I played a Harengon ArtiChron (Art 1/Wiz X) in a short-lived Strahd game and it is *so* much fun. At low levels, the BA hop came in clutch for escaping enemies, and the overall feel of the build is super slick. I will always love my lil Bucky Scorsby.
One thing unmentioned is that artificer gets magic stone. Which when paired with tiny servants can net you (1d6+5)x3 on a bonus action!!!
Also thorn whip for forced movement on arti uses int instead of wisdom!
Thorn whip is mentioned along with the intelligence vs wisdom
People come back because you have a 10/10 voice for commentary format videos. Melt butter with that gruff tone my man
I hate my voice, so thank you
@@cmccbuilds8229 the classic example of not knowing what you have if you've always had it. It is a very easy masculine voice to listen to.
Appreciate so much your approach to content and Gauntlet iniciativa, Mike, many thanks to your and the team.
Yet another FANTASTIC build. Keep up the great work.
I thought the Artificers Spellcasting restrictions (I.e. having to hold tools in your hand to cast artificer spells) would come into play here as a negative for the artificer.
Yeah good call
I agree - makes taking Warcaster necessary, or, conversely, only prepping out-of-combat spells (or just juggling tools). I agree with you, though, that's a definite negative. Clerics can get away with a shield as their holy symbol, keeping your other hand free for your wizard focus.
If you use a weapon along with the shield then yes, there's an issue but if you normally don't then put your tools into your spell component pouch
Can't wait for a detailed video about the build. I like graviturgy wizard, but never played chronurgy.
Perfectly timed video as usual. I’m rolling up a Chronorgy Wizard for session 0 tonight! Excited for the build video. One question tho, I’ll be doing a peace cleric dip. Should I start with it at level 1 or wait til level 2? The campaign is starting at level 3
Are you playing lvl 1? If so, I’d go cleric. If not, you need to weigh intelligence vs charisma saves.
I look forward to the full video. I'm currently playing an Artichron on a westmarch server, and he does great every game I play. I'm level 10, so just one more level until I can really have some fun with arcane abeyance.
Which server
@@cmccbuilds8229The New Dawn Coalition
It's a discord server, but I doubt I can post a link of it
Yeah I’m part of it. Just haven’t played in forever
@cmccbuilds8229 Nice, it's the main way I get to play DND as my in person group has been on hold since December.
id imagine a table that has problems with peace/twilight would be against chronurgist as well
Ha good point
Yep. They do, at least at the table I`m playing at.
I just don't think any feature matches up to the racial bonuses provided by playing a yuan-ti pureblood or an eladrin/shadar-kai so I usually consider my racial slot spoken for
Artificer allows for this
(On a spellcaster, as you aren't as desperate for feats to power and BA attack)
I've been running some math on peace cleric dips recently, and they are just disgusting. Like...I was calculating whether the party damage suffered more if you didn't have someone with a peace dip, or if gloomstalker ranger was banned at your table, and...it did depend on party composition and level, and how often you would get hints of upcoming combat to put up emboldening bond in advance, but the scenarios where peace cleric meant more damage were not outlandish--pretty much just involved two power attackers in the party. (And this is before considering the arguably bigger peace dip benefits like saving throws and skill checks).
So...yeah, if the DM actually allows Peace dips, someone should take one (DMs, if you ban one thing for power level, Peace dip is a good candidate).
Another interesting question with Cleric dips is whether you want your first level to be in Cleric or Wizard. Primarily this is a choice between proficiency in INT saves or CHA saves (but taking level 1 in Cleric does also give you 1 more net HP). I've been coming around to the idea that a decent amount of the time you will generally want the better INT saves than CHA saves. Chances are there are other people in the party good at CHA saves. Chances are there are not other people in the party good at INT saves, and if your party gets hit by, for example, a Mindflayer's Mind Blast (60 foot cone) you really want at least one person to make the saving throw.
Do check with the party, though, as there are a couple unexpected classes with INT saves. (Druid and Rogue are the ones that might catch you off-guard). Usually there will be a lot more party members with high CHA saves, however.
I've long felt that the focus on Constitution saving throw proficiency over Wisdom saving throw proficiency for casters is a bit miscalculated. Protecting concentration is the ultimate goal. My experience is that protecting concentration through solid positioning and tactics is much easier in earlier levels compared to higher levels when enemies have access to more ranged options, stronger spells, and legendary actions. In my mind this makes Constitution saving throw proficiency much more important in later tiers of play. Debilitating Wisdom saving throws are prevalent throughout play. That being said the leveling format for full casters that I follow looks something like this: 4th level = half-feat with bump to primary casting stat (18), 8th level = ASI for +2 to primary casting stat (20), 12th level = Resilient Con or Wis. Having both Constitution and Wisdom saving throw proficiency and a maxed casting stat by level 12 is ideal. A deficiency in either is highly problematic in higher levels. This makes Constitution saving throw proficiency at level 1 less important, and why I think class/subclass features are more important when determining which dip is better, especially for Wizards. Ultimately I think this one comes down to what subclasses are available at your table and preference.
Dude I know you dropped the super hero builds but I would love to see How you build The X-Men
Maybe I’ll bring them back for their incorporation into the MCU
Hi Mike, I’m currently making a build which uses the stars druid as a dip for wizards to become an extremely reliable concentrator and counterspeller (starry form’s dragon giving reliable tallent for those checks). idk if that would be a good option for this build or if its too niche for its talent to shine. Could I have your input on how to make it work?
Requires 2+ levels. I’m only looking at 1 level dips.
I know 1 level dips are super popular among optimizers, but I've always really struggled to see them as optimal for Wizards. Being behind on spell level progression is particularly punishing unless you have an equally powerful way to upcast lower level spells (conjure animals, spirit guardians). Wizards get back to back to back super powerful spells, and putting those off feels like too much of a sacrifice. At levels 3, 5, 7, 9, etc., you're going to feel significantly weaker.
That being said, Peace is dumb, and I consider it off limits personally. But if you are playing with other optimizers, someone will probably have it if its allowed, and having a second Peace cleric is way less impactful.
I agree with 5, but at 7 there are several nice things to upcast into the 4th level slot: Hold Person 3 targets, Tashas Mind Whip 3 targets, making 3 Tiny Servants instead of 1, and honestly Hypnotic Pattern is still good as a 4th level spell even with no upcasting benefits. Later, things like Summon Greater Demon Scale nicely, as does the duration of e.g. planar binding
I don't think I've ever heard of a DM banning Peace and Twilight Clerics but not Chronugists. It's one of the only subclasses that can easily be argued is more broken than Peace and Twilight.
Adding a 2 lvl of Artificer with the mind sharpener infusion makes con saves all but irrelevant.
Something most players would add with Warcaster at some point.
Hi Mike
i love the time wizard, but is way too banned, the the scribe wizard is the superior option
I would look for solutions that don't require multiclassing, even if they're not as good so long as they're good enough.
Points 1 and 2 are like two sides of the same coin in that they both address AC. I would take one of the races that have natural armor. Cast Blur at low levels or if I was planning on being in melee. What have wizards usually done with low AC... keep their distance.
Point 3 just take the Resilient Feat and add CON saves.
Point 4 take the Hermit background or any other that gives you the Herbalism Kit prof. and make healing potions during your downtime.
Why are you trying to be in melee as a wizard?
I don't understand the single level dip. Unless you really like Spell Mastery you can go 4 levels in either Cleric or Artificer and not only have the ASI you'd get but also the sub-class features for Artificer and access to entire spell list of both. Taking 4 levels of either doesn't stop your spell progression and there is nothing tied to your Wizard level other than slightly less spells you could prepare. I'm pretty sure there isn't much difference between preparing 19 spells or 23 spells when a few of them are Rituals you don't need to prepare. Heck you can even go just 2 levels in either and get Infusions for Artificers or the entire spell for Cleric but you do lose an ASI which could be worth it.
Uhh you’ll be 4 levels behind straight casters. That’s massively behind.
yeah and even when talking about ready lv20 builds it means no lv9 spells