For me it's kind of a "Holy crap, two cakes!" situation. I absolutely love the og game, but I also was able to see the dlc as it's own thing, a passion project by tons of modders as a love letter to the game. It had it's flaws, like with the dialogue and story (maybe a bit too fan-fictiony at times lol) but it honestly was just a ton of fun and it even made me see the og game in a better way.
I think a big part of the problem, which I only learned after making this video, is that downpour is marketed as an improvement on the first cake and not a separate cake. I remember people getting very passionate about arguing that Downpour was NOT a collection of mods made official, and the fact that it’s an alternate universe with a separate canon was not made clear at all never sat well with me. If the latter fact was well communicated, I would’ve taken the story and character changes more kindly.
@@sorbetcafe this reminds me of a friend saying that downpour probably should have stayed in the oven for a little bit more which i agree, i feel like it could have been part of the main cannon is the downpour devs were told the game lore before launch so they could made it fit in it, and made spearmaster and riv campaign second part more the just a fetch quest, spearmaster especially since the second part of his campaign is kinda annoying with only being able to use one hand and not being able to use one of spearmaster ability to hold two spears
Also the thing about Gourmand is that his story isn’t actually real. If you give moon a firebug egg, she makes it clear that you are just playing as the legend of a slugcat passed down and exaggerated with time. It’s weak, but explains away the unrealistic elements of the campaign.
Yeah I can appreciate what they were going with with gourmand being a story told to slugcats upon returning, but the official stance from the dev commentary being “yeah none of this is real” doesn’t feel great. Feels like a cop out to avoid making the abilities fit with the world.
@@tarot3078 the stories are definitely real but i believe that gourmand isn't that is exaggerating them, it's actually the slugcats that are exaggerating them as what we can see is that gourmand is wise he would never lie to his people, the reason why they exaggerate it is probably because... well, yeah the world is pretty harsh and it rains basically all the time, so for gourmand to return and magically have no scars they think is that he is pretty much G O D, so it would be reasonable to think he is pretty strong
All of your stances are valid, but not something I personally agree with. I think the iterators always had some sort of human elements, from NSH sending Hunter to revive moon and including a joke in his pearl to Moon talking to an animal she can't even be sure can understand her despite it having the mark of communication (I mean, how can they know Slug cats are intelligent enough to comprehend what they're being told). Pebbles in particular felt the most machine in the base game, but he's also the most conscious of his image. In the beginning of the timeline with Spear his more human-like dialogue can be explained from his emotional state. Arti he finds something relatable in her, her anger. He feels a very similar anger to her, having been abandoned by his creators and searching for a way out only to fail. He cannot indulge in his anger, bound in his can, but she can. He encourages her to do what he can't, get revenge. Gourmand, well I have to agree with you on gourmand. His story didn't really need the iterators. Rivulet he's grown past his own ego, so he no longer displays himself as so unknowable. The iterators are much more human than they first appear, and perhaps that's intentional. Their creators never saw them as more than just a tool, although they recognized their intelligence. As per this image, they acted like machines for their creators. With each other, they're able to be much less mechanical. Iterators have always been less mechanical in their talks with each other. I mean, NSH was very human in his pearl to moon in hunter. I get that goes against the original portrayal from when you first play the game, but even in the base game there's still hints at their human-like personalities in the pearls. Spearmaster was raised by an iterator, so it makes sense that he would see them as fairly "human" for lack of a better word. One could say that him understanding they broadcasts is weird since he doesn't have the mark yet, which is completely fair. Although, it could be explained through him reading rather than hearing. In a broadcast Suns says they never gave Spear the mark of communication because they communicated just fine without it, so maybe he was taught to read, maybe? Not the best explanation I know. I do still feel like Spearmaster seeing the Iterators as less of "god-like beings" compared to Survior or Monk makes sense. I feel like the perspective of each Slugcat is largely still immersive, as each has a very different perspective than the three base game Slugcats. Although this is all because I quite like the characterization given to the iterators in downpour, so I'm a little biased. I can completely understand how the difference can feel out of place and contrary to the original game, but perhaps it's less of "the base game iterators weren't nearly that human" and more of "downpour expanded our knowledge of the iterators to show that they aren't as mechanical as we first thought". Anyways I definitely agree with you on the art department. While I thought Arti's dreams were cool, I feel like art similar to the original game would have portrayed her devastation better. The end cutscene art does a good job at this, but the dreams could have benefitted from it as well. Overall I think more cutscenes akin to the original game would have been nice.
Moon's dialog tones definitely changed upon downpour. meeting rivulet, and forgive me for the slang, she is a yapper. monk, who is the closest to rivulet timeline wise, is greeted with: "your shape is familiar to me. [...] He's sick, you know. Being corrupted from the inside by his own experiments. Maybe they all are by now, who knows. We weren't designed to transcend and it drives us mad. Hm... Such a familiar feeling." very iterator of her. In rivulet's campaign, she has two neurons that you can assume were brought by monk, and she says.. " What a strange specimen you are! My memory does not serve me well, but it has been a long time since I've encountered one of your species. And none quite with adaptions such as your own. It appears you can breathe underwater. Amazing!" This really does sound like bad wattpad fic tryharding. Rivulet is far, far into the timeline. Moon forgot an astounding amount in the short time frame between survivor and monk. How good do you thing neurons are, storage wise?
@noctiluca1370 That's true, her dialog tone is definitely different. I dont really dislike the second but I will say downpour did fail at keeping her dialog consistent especially in instances where it can't really be explained by time. I could try to explain away the difference, but it would just be me trying to explain away genuine flaws in downpour. I'm not going to deny that downpour has flaws just because I quite liked downpour, I'll just disagree that it's a detrimental as portrayed in the video. It's really just down to personal preference. Plus, I find it fun trying to think of explanations for these things even if there is no good one. My attempt at trying to explain the dialog shift is just perhaps her neurons become better at holding data over time? After hunter those neurons wouldn't usually be used for holding so much data, it'd normally be divided across thousands. She may have adapted in the time between monk and rivulet to be able to store more data with fewer neurons. A shit explanation I know and it barely makes sense but, ya know, maybe?? Anyways forgive me for, excuse the slang, being a yapper. Hope you have a good day!
spearmaster was taught the ancient equivalent of sign language "I borrowed a coded language authored in the late period of the Yellow hegemonic dynasty. It used gestures and facial expressions as a silent method of communication with the seriously ill." the reasoning was to allow for 2 way communication as well as not drawing attention from other iterators so yeah i dont think theres any actual explanation for why spearmaster can understand the broadcasts
please note: five pebbles may get more annoyed with the slugcats later on the timelline due to the amount of previous slugcats. for example, fp says he ignores his overseers but says he pays attention to his overseers because artificer is earlier on the timeline than hunter.
@@Mroziukz Spoiler Warning: FP Gourmand Dialogue (after hunter): In return I ask that you encourage your community, through whatever method of communication you choose to employ, to also go west. Off into the wastes below, far away from me and my work. FP Monk Dialogue (after survivor and gourmand): I am growing increasingly impatient with the traffic of your kind through me and my premises.
In defense to downpour, I need to remind that the base game took a huge amount of years to develop by a few people. Downpour was developed while rain world was still unknown again by few people with less time. I think downpour succeed to make the game more popular and let people enjoy the base game which is the masterpiece. Without the dlc I think I would have never played the game or be satisfied with only 2 campaigns.
Well, 5P's changing attitude seems pretty normal if you count that the storyline is stretched across thousands of years and they WERE basically a teenager at the start.
I think the Iterators being more humanized makes tons of sense lore wise tbh. They were gods that literally had no agency, to the point where most even gave up the purpose they were built for. Them talking like discords mods is what they quite literally are. Powerful beings beyond purpose and very bored.
I think the biggest tell that Downpour is a fan project first and foremost is how centralized it is around the iterators, who - frankly - did not really need additional stories, but so much fanon was about them because they're the only real "characters" in the game, so... ...also, while I understand the critiques around FP's dialogue, based on comms pearls in the basegame, a lot of the other iterators were already written a lot more human than him - in fact, FP and - what I think escaped the Downpour devs - Moon, have the most stilted and uncanny dialogue, even when talking to other iterators. Moon's actually a lot meaner than downpour wanted to write her, lol. I do think the whole vibe of "iterator to iterator comms as discord chats" was intentional, though I totally agree that the billion and a half spearmaster broadcasts were overkill. But I think downpour shines brightest when it's focusing less on the iterators and more on the slugcats themselves and, especially, the world - hence Saint's campaign generally being the one held in highest regard compared to the others. Also yeah hunter is still the most fun slugcat you are 100% right there.
I think Iterators would have been more interesting if they wrote them to have more flaws/act in a way that reflects an inherently different view of life. Such as spearmaster being a tool to be used, not a beloved pet that SRS loves. That was what I was getting at with the humanization/loss of their alien nature of being. Five Pebbles was the example I chose because he's the only iterator we have large amounts of pre- and post-downpour dialogue for, so comparing the changes felt most appropriate there.
I do appreciate Downpour making the game feel more… mainstream, if that’s the right word. Yes it doesn’t deliver nearly the same kind of experience as the base game, but it also makes it more accessible for much larger of an audience. And though not as frequent, I did have the occasional moment of something 'clicking' without the game having to explicitly state it. For example, after I first ascended Five Pebbles, I died before I could hibernate and save. I was slightly frustrated and went over to do it again, only to find him completely limp. I was confused for a moment before I realized, "Oh, I ASCENDED him. He's GONE." It was a cool, chilling little moment for me. I also enjoy the larger story, though you did bring up a good point with Five Pebbles actually being ultimately useless to some of the campaigns he was essential in. Spearmaster and Rivulet are cool in the way that they're basically lap cats for godlike beings and do actually play a larger part in the story, but neither Artificer nor Gourmand needed that. They're the center focus of their own stories, not that of the larger narrative, and that probably could have been committed to better. I do have to say though that I absolutely loved that Monk and Survivor were given a new ending with the DLC. And gosh, did it get me. The survivor staring blankly at the empty tree where it once lived a simple yet enjoyable life with its parents, where it had assumedly not yet felt the cruelty the world was capable of dealing. All of that security was ripped away in an instant, and the little creature, then all alone, was forced to provide comfort, shelter and food for itself, with every moment of perceived safety capable of being shattered in an instant. There was no more illusion of safety, no more companions to protect it. Even the lizards that can be tamed can only provide so much companionship, that of which doesn't measure up to what it had before. When the survivor does find more of its own kind, (as Monk's cutscene implies it canonically does, at least in this ending), they're just tiny pups. It has companionship now, but IT is now the guardian. IT is now the provider, the one responsible for providing safety and security, for keeping a creature alive, just for it to have the luxury of being carefree. Those same pups are still carefree once they return home; to them, this is a new place to explore. To the survivor, its a husk of a memory, every second spent there a cruel reminder that what he once had, what he had fought so hard to return to, was gone. But then Monk, a character who I find to actually be quite admirable but cursed with an extremely boring campaign, returns as well. He too had faced nearly identical hardships, not out of a tragic accident like his brother, but out of selfless compassion. All along his journey, Survivor truly did have someone looking out for him like he had with his whole family. It was not truly lost. They may be the only ones remaining, but they remain together. Monk got what he wanted by reuniting with his brother. Survivor, although not reuniting with his old family, did still get his desire. He had *A* family. The comfort and familiarity of the past in his brother, and his two new pups, who just like him, had been separated from their original families. All of them lost, and then found in each other. None of which requires interfering with the passing of random gods to achieve. I love it.
I think for this reason it's very important to have people play Rain World as a basic game, and ideally all the base slugcats before even touching downpour. The tonal dissonance is crazy. I personally really enjoy Downpour but I very much understand the dissonance.
@@snezor2783 while I understand saying that they should do all the base slugcats first, honestly doing hunter before any of the dlc slugcats is incredibly rough. I know there’s more impact to doing the hunter campaign earlier but the game knowledge needed to pull off a hunter run is honestly not worth grinding over just playing some of the other dlc scugs and coming back for hunter later.
Great video, very glad the tonal shift is being talked about. Been passionately modding the game for almost 3 years, and I can very much appreciate downpour as a mod. Hard to appreciate it as a DLC. This, however, is not at all the downpour devs' fault. What was originally a mod made with love and passion was rushed by the publisher's deadlines into a janky DLC that is easy to be read as canon, despite the devs stating it is an alternative universe. Mods having a tonal shift is 100% fine, it is, afterall, a mod and not an official extension. Downpour was not made with becoming a DLC in mind, and I do not blame the devs for taking up the opportunity to become a DLC. The state of the DLC is rooted in a series of unfortunate events rather than bad developer decisions. Much respect to the team, and I feel bad that they got their project a little gutted by the publishers. I can't say I have positive experience with downpour, but I respect and appreciate it regardless.
@@sorbetcafeThat's the issue, not many people know this because it isn't really stated anywhere, devs just said it on some social media platforms / forums and that's it I think. It is not meant to be canon to the base game, but the marketing makes it read as such. This also lead to the tonal shift in the whole community, because most believe downpour is canon. Makes it hard for some people (including me) to interact with the new influx of community members that came with downpour, because they see the game completely differently
@@thedarkking6568Sure, if the expansion was to be designed around becoming an official DLC, I agree. They didn't know they're gonna get such an opportunity, and I don't blame them for taking it. Mods usually *are* just extra content. If someone didn't like the mod, they can just not play it and accept it as a mod. It's harder to see an official DLC as an alternative universe. I do agree the stories bring nothing new to the table and only explore either what we knew or answer the questions that were left intentionally ambiguous by the base game, and that's what I found beautiful about it. Barely anything was explained to the player, and that leaves you wondering and thinking, coming up with possible answers yourself, but never knowing if you're even close to the truth. Ambiguity is powerful, rain world took advantage of it, and downpour kinda shut that down
Thanks for commenting, at least they mentioned that it isnt canon. You are being very respectful in these comments, and i appreciate that... Downpour and how the new fanbase overshadows the old one, and their videos on youtube, fill me with such sadness... i would have worded things quite differently. :) On steam, the watcher is called the fourth slugcat, i wonder if that means it will be like the vanilla cats, or that the marketing team is just very clever.
Tbh I really liked the dlc. I learned about the game not so long ago, shortly before the release of downpour, and perhaps due to my lack of maturity, I absorbed all the content with great pleasure and did not see any shortcomings. But after watching the video... I don’t completely agree with the statements, but it opened my eyes to many problems of the Dlc that I had completely ignored, although I still adore the game both before and after the downpour Thanks for sharing your opinion (Sorry if there are mistakes here, I don’t know English very well)
I like Downpour, and agreed with most of your points as well. It is tonally distinct from the base game, the new slugcats are very powerful and not really a part of the ecosystem in the same way the base game slugcats were, and _maybe_ some of Five Pebbles' dialogue could have been more consistent too. I also never even noticed that they forgot to implement the lineage system into all of the new regions, that's probably the biggest problem mentioned in this video that I agree with. That said I still would like to nit-pick for a while, particularly about the iterator dialogue. The human-like style of dialogue that you attribute to Downpour is present in much of Moon's base-game dialogue and in the Sky Islands pearls, and Moon, SRS, and one other unnamed iterator even use tildes. So really all Downpour does is follow what is already established in the base game, it didn't invent anything new. Five Pebbles' dialogue just seems to be an anomaly. Furthermore I would argue that NSH in particular is actually _more_ complex in Downpour than he is in the base game, not less. He does crack many jokes as he does in the base game, but he also clearly shows a lot of care for Moon, even threatening Five Pebbles in one particular broadcast.
I'm glad you can still upkeep your tone of genuine criticism while trying to get across your points. I'll admit, I think you are too attached to the idea of a maximum difficulty experience upholding OG Rainworld's view of vague, hardly visible story points that put off a large number of people from the game; I don't agree with a large portion of the things you say, but what I can agree with fully is that you're aware of what purpose Downpour had in giving more to the community and breathing life into it. You're aware of the purpose it has served to the game, and you enjoyed it with your criticisms in hand. Good takes.
Yeah, it's difficult going from the "best game I wouldn't recommend" to a game that I can have an easier time telling people to play because it's more approachable, but find less enjoyable due to those changes. I know that the perspective I have isn't going to be universal, but I also know I'm not the only person with that perspective and it's something I very rarely see addressed.
@@sorbetcafe Kudos to you for sharing that perspective. As someone who has very little issue with Downpour and more with the base game, I find it legitimately refreshing and enjoyable to see these takes due to how uncommon or often stifled it is. Keep up the good work
I do understand your view, Downpour itself is very different in tone than the base game. It focused on the iterators and the overarching themes of Rainworld, while the base game focused a lot more on atmosphere. I think what is missing in Downpour is the feeling of isolation, and to a lesser extent, the fear of the unknown. We didn't have anyone to talk to. There's only a few pearls that depict any iterators besides Moon and Pebbles. Five Pebbles made himself appear above anything we were concerned with, and like you said, his speech came off as weird, alien, and artificial. Moon was really the only character that we could form a connection with, and first time players likely won't even see any of her dialogue. You have to actively go out of your way from the main goal to talk to Moon in the base game. Hunter is an exception as his story line is specifically designed around going to revive Moon. Even then, it's unlikely you would want to stay around as you don't have the time to go seek pearls to give to her. In Downpour, rather than having to search of this stuff yourself, it's a part of the core story line. Which is probably why they chose to humanize the iterators as they wanted us to connect with them. It's weird because they are the same characters largely, they just don't speak in the same way, like they've been translated differently. It does work, however, maybe something could've been done with Pebbles to make his transition into more casual speech make more sense. Maybe make it that he only talks in the way he does in Downpour only after he's been consumed by rot, and it could tie into his character arch. I don't agree that Seven Red Suns and No Significant Harassment have been flanderized into just one character trait. Especially NSH as he shows a wide array of emotions there. He isn't joking all the time, there's one specific moment where he attempts to message Five Pebbles and he doesn't even act one bit of sarcastic. As for SRS, He has a bit of a character arc revolving around Spearmaster where he grows to see it as something more than a tool to message stuff. In Spearmaster. While yes, he isn't shown as wide of an array of emotions as NSH, but that's due to this major event being partially his fault. He's consumed by not only guilt, but also concern for both Moon, Pebbles, and his growing concern for Spearmaster. We also don't have him really effect any campaign outside of Spearmaster, unlike NSH where he's the driving force for Hunter going out to revive Moon. We don't really get to see how either of them act on an everyday basis between them and other iterators. I don't fully agree with you on the slugcats being overpowered. Sure, you could say we are taking away an element of danger by giving us more ways to fight against the world. However these slugcat's campaigns are mostly balanced around this, to varying levels of success. Spearmaster has unlimited spears and can carry 2 spears at once sure, but they have to deal with by far the hardest version of the map. And for most of your play through, you have one hand dedicated to carrying a pearl, and sometimes you have both hands full as carrying a grapple worm makes multiple regions a whole lot easier. Artificer has explosives and can double jump, and yea there is literally no explaination for why she is this way. However you are constantly having to deal with scavengers, and it can very easily get overwhelming. For gourmand, he can craft stuff and is able to kill things with his weight at the cost of being pretty slow and needing to rest often. It actually makes a lot of sense for him to be powerful as, in the universe of the game, is a figure of legend. He did exist, but his feats were greatly exaggerated by the slugcats. So of course he'd be able to do the stuff he does. Now should this be a valid excuse for making a character capable of such great power, that's up to you. I do feel like you did neglect to talk about the legendary nature of his character. For Rivulet, she's fast and can breathe underwater for a long time. Of course, there's the short cycles that you do have to deal with. And while yes, you don't have to deal with it in the rot, and after you take the rarefaction cell. I'd say that's balanced around the sheer size and amount of rot you have to deal with in the rot, and submerged superstructure being equaliy as massive and labyrinthine as the rot. I've played through Rivulet three times, and I still get lost in Submerged. And I have a pretty good sense of direction, I can get through any other region just fine. Submerged is just so maze like, it can even confused experienced players. Submerged is mostly underwater, and the region is designed perfectly for Rivulet. And finally Saint. I think Saint is actually the most balanced out of any of the downpour slugcats, even with god mode. For most of your run, you are completely defenseless, and have to rely on stuff that isnt meat. You have no way to kill anything in Saint before god mode. Once you do attain god mode, it is rather cumbersome to use. It takes a while to charge up and drains quickly. And there's a whole region designed around god mode. I do have mixed feelings towards god mode itself, and its implementation, but at the very least it doesn't make you overpowered. The point I'm making here is this: While yes, you aren't always nearly as vulnerable as you were in the base game. The world itself is balanced around your move set to make it still very challenging. You are never truly invulnerable in rainworld. Even with saint's god mode, you will be killed if you don't pay good attention to where you are. You are still very much in great danger, and you have to be as alert as you were in the base game. As I said earlier, Downpour was more about expanding upon the world that was set up in Rainworld. It's goal was to not only make us have a deeper connection with the characters, but also to explain a lot of the mysteries hinted at in Rainworld. I do feel this has the unfortunate side effect of not allowing for much room for interpretation now. That aura of mystery just isn't there, and it does take out a certain characteristic that probably drew people into Rainworld. In wake of the announcement of the Watcher, I hope they find a way to expand the lore while also recapturing the uncertainty of the base game. It looks like it's gonna take place in largely the same setting, only serving to canonize fan regions. Hopefully we get to see some brand new regions though. At least it looks like they are striving to recapture that feeling of isolation given some of what we have heard about the Watcher. I feel in order for Rainworld to continue, it will need to at the very least start taking place somewhere other than the area surrounding Moon and Pebbles. Why not have a campaign about SRS, NSH, or even Sliver of Straw. Why not have a campaign that takes place during the time of the ancients. Then again, that would take away a lot of the mystery and room for interpretation so maybe not. But the point is, we can only keep going back to meet with Pebbles and Moon so many times. Their story has already been told, and there is not much else to cover. I can only hope in the future, we find ourselves somewhere entirely new. And hopefully striking a balance between the mystery of base game, but also expanding upon what we've been given so far.
I think it's less that the iterators are cold and emotionless and more that they are very wise and put thought into what they say and do. A good example is what five pebbles says when you meet him as the survivor. If it were a human speaking, you can easily imagine them having formed and rehearsed the lines in their head since long before your arrival, anticipating you. It's very proper and matter of fact, and its clear that he chooses what he says mindfully. Iterators aren't the kind to have emotional outbreaks or act on impulse, because for every action and decision they make there is so much time to have thought about it before.
Rain World is a masterpiece that I was able to discover with the DLC release through a very good friend of mine. I've gotten so immersed, everything that happened to the slugcat happened to me too. I've felt the fear of the unknown, the anxiety of cycles, the joys of making progress and the wonders of learning the world around me and becoming a part of it. I blazed my way through Chimney Canopy and Sky Islands, yet I went back to see every room there was there just to experience it. The game had completely changed me, I've learned a lot about myself, fears I subconsciously had, bad events that happened in the past and how it affects me in the present, how rain world is triggering trauma long forgotten. I can't bring myself to open the game again, the world is too terrifying, too unwelcoming, too alien. No other game and no other media evoked such strong emotions as Rain World did. Yet I still love the game, love every bit of it, to the point where I will likely be getting a tattoo of it in the near future. Now, about the DLC. I haven't experienced them by playing, but rather watching friends, youtubers and reading a wiki. By far the two campaigns I enjoyed the most are Gourmand and Saint. I mostly agree with your criticism of Gourmand campaign, but I don't think any of the problems listed actually affect the first playthrough of the campaign. Dealing with limited stamina forces you to reach intentionally in every move, makes you choose what you want to do with the limited amount of breath you have before exhaustion. The fact that a lot of foods are craftable isnt an issue to me either, as a player doesn't have a wiki open with the crafting table. It's a new dimension for experimentation, it encourages exploration and can lead to a lot of really cool events, even as early as 2 rooms in where my friend crafted a lantern and carried it through the entire citadel. I don't think either of those are the best designed systems, imo Rain World is too unpredictable to limit player's stamina that much, a lot of situations just start feeling completely inescapable and the crafting sometimes gets really weird, spewing out an item that has no relation to either of the two combined items. Saint's campaign is a masterpiece of art. I won't be talking about it much, I think it's *the* campaign to experience for yourself, even if it's just watching and not playing. Taking the common formula of "visit 5p and then go win", Saint completely subverts it, I think you can see how. The power of that one moment, that one room where you don't see what has always been there is irreplicable. The whole campaign forces you to explore the world, the whole world, become attumed with it, become one with it. Do you see the same as me? Beauty continuing to bloom even in a place long forgotten. I did not have the will to depart, nor the desire. This moment, right here! It is where we are meant to be.
I think the criticisms here are valid, but it doesnt change the fact that I enjoy downpour significantly more than the base game. I think the fact that downpour deviates from the tone of the original game is absolutely a good thing, like you said theres no exploring this world blind and discovering the iterators, echoes, ect for a second time. At the end of the day any work of art needs to evolve over time instead of rehashing the same beats over and over in a futile attempt to recreate the original. I think taking time to explore the story of the iterators was a great direction for rain world's DLC, however i think after downpour its time to somewhat move on from the iterators. I'd like to see future DLCs or mods expand more on the games ecosystem and build up the world more outside of the ancients and iterators. PS Your perspective on the downpour scugs being too overpowered is bcs you are a god gamer 😂
yeah i realized it might be moreso because I can use the slugcats to their full potential, which is MUCH higher than hunter. Artificer's parry, once you know how to use it, is disgusting and makes you nigh unkillable as long as you aren't overheating. As far as enjoyment, I've gotten more playtime out of downpour, but personally the most enjoyable times I've had in the game have been as the 3 base game slugcats. I still have a fun time going back and replaying them, whereas the only times I've replayed the downpour campaigns were for this video and when I did them on a dancepad.
Very well made video and very cathartic for me. I spent hundreds of hours in Rain World pre-Downpour. Speedrunning, doing challenges, lore scavenging and the like. (Now forgive me for complaining but I will get around to some praise at the end) Downpour's tonal and direction changes completely killed my passion for the game after I 100% it. If there is one thing I would say that makes downpour detract in it's emotional power and original direction, besides some very exceptional moments... is that Downpour is way too arcade-y. It feels too much like I'm playing a game and not an incredible emotional and spiritual journey. I played Rain World originally with everything spoiled and yet every single part of the journey had me fully immersed and left me with chills reaching Five Pebbles and the entire depths sequence. It feels like slugcats are the center of this universe and everything revolves around them as their super powered abilities just shatter the naturalist feel of the original despite being in an almost entirely industrial world as we are causes, or a least directly present, for a lot of massive events that really don't matter to the slugcat but matters to the player (more immersion breaking). Saint was phenomenal until it turns out you are basically god, sent to bring about a new age. There could be some really cool exploration of "redeemer" type figures but it just feels like the cherry on top for everything being so op now. The slugcats feel too intelligent at times, even if purposed organisms; beings that really just feel like they are the iterators' favorite pets. It makes no practical sense that they are the iterators chosen messengers now, when you could just send a vulture to deliver something (and Spearmaster's pearl is said to guide the slugcat so the argument of "vultures are too animalistic to work" doesn't make sense (same with saying slugcats *aren't* animalistic)). That heightened intelligence made the line "always the same blank expression" said by Five Pebbles to Rivulet, not work at all. Ecosystem balance was very ??? for me with how much they just orange lizard spammed to make the game more difficult because the slugcats are so op. An egregious example is the Miros Vulture, it just feels so out of place and just added in to have some new great threat that isn't original at all (which is true with a lot of the new creatures). Downpour could be so much better (or at least much more aligned with vanilla Rain World) if it was more focused on exploring new lands and not stuck with Iterator high school angst fanfiction with super powered slugcat pets. A very meme-y way of saying it but I believe it to be true. There is some really good parts Outer Expanse is great, even if the rooms feel very weird (but I can just believe it's terraforming from Ancients/Rain issues) Saint is so well done, especially undergrowth. It's just becoming god that's such an issue to me and I would like to see a *few* less creatures in the world/cold but that's a small thing The actual gameplay of the new slugcats are fun, even at the price they bring in terms of lore and world building issues. Rain World is more talked about, but I just wish the original greatness was highlighted more than "omg cute slugcat" and "iterators ahhhhhhhhhh" Ugh, why does every positive have a caveat, it's so hard to like this dlc Tangent over, probably makes no sense or sounds like elitist og player gatekeeping but yeah. I don't hate the devs or anything, it's understandable when you have modded content being made into official DLC. It's great as a mod but as official content? It's rough. Especially when everyone takes it canon when it's officially not. The shift in the community since Downpour is noticeable and makes it hard to interact with for me when so many new people see the game in a completely different way than I do.
Something that I think really distinguishes the base and downpour slugcats that wasn't brought up in this video is that the downpour slugcats are still very or at least fairly effective using just their body with no items: - Gourmand without items can either cough up random items or use their body as a weapon - Artificer without items can still blast at high speeds and sort of use their body as a weapon through concussive blasts and mauling - Rivulet without items can still go high speeds, being able to ignore the already non-threatening (except for the rain in the first half of the campaign) ecosystem - Spearmaster without items can fairly quickly become Spearmaster with 2 spears (Again body as a weapon) - Saint without items can still swing at high speeds, though this is the least extreme example because items do become more important in close-quarters where Saint's tongue isn't as useful With Base slugcats, whether or not you had access to a spear, rock, cherrybomb, suidcada, etc. would have a large influence on how you went about dealing with a problem, but with Downpour slugcats, you always have an at least fairly strong option to use or fall back on no matter what your inventory or immediate surroundings are. Also, thanks for this video! It really resonated with me, and many of the points made were good ways of wording thoughts that were either consciously or subconsciously in my mind.
I personally think the biggest problem with the Downpour DLC is not about the content itself, but with how the whole thing was handled. More Slugcats is not really special in making the player character too powerful. A lot of old slugcat mods do that before Downpour released (for example Martyr who can one-shot almost everthing, Spookcat who is practically invincible, Wingcat who can literally fly). Humanized iterator is also not really rare in fanart. The problem is it received an "official" title all the while Videocult not really changing that much of MSC, and Akupara being not too eager at making it clear that the DLC is really a modpack. So we end up with an official DLC, that doesn't capture base game's special charm, because why would a modpack that's made by mod authors who were having fun and making their own version of the world replicate the base game's atmosphere? MSC started as a project to see if you can mod slugcats! I don't really expect it to capture the base game. But now it's official, and we have new players who just want to have a fun game to play rushing in. Great for generating revenue because you gotta buy the base game AND DLC for the superpower slugcats, not so great for seeing what the base game was all about.
Very potent video! I agree with the broader points, but I wanted to add my 2 cents on the artificer endings anyways; I've always felt like the ascencion for artificer wasn't the correct path, the actions the scavengers take is clearly overblown for what is clearly a child and the scavengers ARE clearly intelligent, at least, intelligent enough to hopefully understand that children should not be literally KILLED for a misunderstanding such as this, choosing to forgive them has always felt wrong, and I choose violence every time I play her
@@thedarkking6568 Artificer's abilities also seems like the most "they are there just because they are cool" out of all the slugcats. The abilities of Gourmand and Saint are strange too, but I think the environment and story could somewhat excuse it in their cases. I think the karma works well for Artificer's story though. The "intended path" of going after the chieftain shows Artificer becoming completely absorbed by the karma of rage and violence.
Artificer's children were murdered by a single toll tribe in Garbage Wastes, not the entire scavenger species. Do you really believe that they all *deserve to die* because of what one tribe did? Consider that the scavengers probably have children too, and even if Artificer only kills the adults, the children will surely die without their parents' protection. The ones outside Garbage Wastes might not even know why Artificer is attacking them, the Garbage Wastes scavs could have easily kept it a secret out of shame.
@@thedarkking6568 in the game when you lose a slugpup, if they die and you save, you do not get them back. Same thing for tamed lizards even back in the base game if I remember correctly? Could just be a gameplay thing, but since a big theme of the game is reincarnation and seemingly each death is meant to have actually happened in your run, maybe each creature just has its own separate cycle. Doesn’t Moon say something like “our cycles will meet again” to Saint? That may be why Artificer doesn’t see her young again, even if they aren’t fully dead. They just aren’t with her anymore. I also think the overkill is kind of the point. The game doesn’t hide the fact that Artificer is the bad guy. Pebbles of all people is appalled with her way of life. The echo in Metropolis tells her to stop. The ending art of the campaign is done purely in red tones, most of them being dark. That isn’t how you portray a hero. She’s a grieving mother, yes, and her pain is not something to be taken lightly, but she takes it out on EVERYONE. She just keeps going and going. The path she took was a conscious decision. She chose vengeance. She chose to be a monster. And now there is no turning back because the entire scavenger population rightfully sees her as a threat to all of their lives, but she wouldn’t want to go back anyways. She’s morally horrible and I love her.
Honestly for artificer I do think it's a case of both sides being at fault. The scavengers are clearly intelligent as is demonstrated by their graffiti, tolls, crafting etc. However they also do not necessarily have morals that are anywhere near similar to human morals due to the subjectivity of such a thing. They are shown to be very to the point with their loyalties and affections. If you help them you are friend, but if you disrespect their authority kill and steal you are enemy. In terms of justification imo artificer lost theirs when they went on a multi region rampage, bathing the land in scavenger blood. Arti's campaign ends up feeling like they are a tragic villain of sorts, since in response to a painful tragedy they end up taking revenge, and then go on to bring what they experienced hundredfold onto uninvolved innocents to satisfy their own undulating rage.
finally someone with a similar opinion about the tonal shift from the lost, dying, or scared slugcats to the absolutely broken downpour ones. Don't get me wrong, I love all of the new areas besides pipeyards, and I love the new stories. Some of the changes and additions to the map and world make the base slugcats feel more complete. The downpour cats are just so strong in comparison to hunter or survivor, and I dreamed up my own mod as a response to that. While brainstorming for new slugcat traits and abilities I went to Daszombes server to get more creative opinions, but what I really got was feedback that completely missed the point of the original game and the vision for my project, "Your character isn't unique enough, give it actually good abilities." The Mutant is the lone survivor of a mutated and deformed litter, radiation poisoning kills the parents. Out of X mutant slugpups, one is chosen at random as the start of the campaign. Half blind but with super hearing abilities, or an extra, cumbersome, arm that can only hold small objects. These are the only two concepts that I have a complete vision for so far. I was originally only going to have debuffs that would force some new kind of situation or playstyle, but prompted by the feedback I thought up small buffs to make the characters feel slightly more fair. This project actually is in development, but we are still 4 years away from finishing the regions, and we don't have anyone who is currently able to program new enemies or the unique implementations of some of the mutations. There's still a lot of play testing and things that I want to do to ensure the quality of the mod. This is absolutely a pipe dream, and one that I need to finish for my own sake. Your analysis of the way the base game conveys narrative is extremely useful. I want my mod's narrative to be conveyed well, but I lack experience. The only thing I can do is discuss, analyze, and imitate what the base game does so well.
Very interesting video. With more niche communities I think people can be quite enthusiastic about the object of their love and blind to its flaws, plus feeding lovers of human character interaction and such (scugs as iterators' pets) is generally going to get people more hyped as opposed to critical. People really like the "iterators as god-teenagers on Discord" thing and it's a valid concept on its own, but tonally disparate from what others may have loved about (and from what one of the creators intended for) the base game. This reminds me of those few who loved the original No Man's Sky and found that the changes, almost universally praised, drove it away from what they had found good. But forever, vanilla is canon to downpour and downpour is not canon to vanilla. A mod to change some of the game's writing could be interesting, though, although from the looks of it you'd want for some campaigns, like Rivulet's, to be entirely different? Five Pebbles feeling remorse is a tough one-it's narratively satisfying, but perhaps not faithful to his character. I'll think about this. Also thanks for not taking from real iterator RPs (don't know if it actually happens, presumably it does?), your point was still made interestingly without having to harp on some server randoms just passionate about a story. I would call Downpour an AU-and AUs are valid. Downpour is a story of the tragedy of hubris, how if you do not consider others you may bring yourself down along with them, of god-machines obsessed with death and the ultimate humanity they found in the darkest of their moments. I think people find this more compelling than the base game's story, simply about being a creature in a lonely world where they are nothing more than a creature, where life is hard and unforgiving and part of a great cycle. The latter is rare and unique and I think we shall not see something like it for a long time, but I can understand why people love the former-I do too.
The main campaigns I would want to be tweaked are spearmaster, artificer, and gourmand. Rivulet’s story itself isn’t bad at all, for better or worse the role of the slugcat is now what it is. The dialogue feels off, though, and the interesting quirk of short cycles shouldn’t be turned off once you get your most powerful tool. It’s also just hard to balance rivulet’s world with their mobility, the lack of a meaningful ecosystem is kind of unavoidable. Something like spearmaster has bad dialogue and a story that feels meaningless, artificer I felt would be a more impactful journey without an iterator (I had the concept of the scav chieftain instead being a matriarch to echo artificer’s own story, with the final act being killing her children and becoming the tragedy that made artificer in the first place. A point for the player to truly reflect on their actions and decide whether the vengeance is actually worth it), and gourmand getting the mark just to be called fat never sat right with me, especially as a mandatory story event. > Five Pebbles feeling remorse is a tough one It’s not so much that he feels remorse, more so that the way he expresses it doesn’t feel true to his character. The point I was making there was more that Five Pebbles was rewritten to be a very different character in downpour, which isn’t necessarily bad, but he lost the unique traits that made the character more interesting.
Downpour isn’t only the story of hubris, it also shows how not wanting to hate is almost as worse as hating everything. It’s implied Moon had the power to stop FP from stealing the groundwater supply, but she never seemed to wanted to hate him, even if for a bit. Her own kindness was taken advantage of, and she collapsed. She still retains her will to live, because she still has hope in what remains. Five Pebbles desired an escape because he hated the world. And the world hated him back. (seeing as how moon’s broadcast came at the right time, the right place to make him fail) His own animosity towards everything ruined his own world for him, and sparked the decision in the first place. Then the consequences of his actions catch up to him, and he collapses. Unrelated: I’ve had the moon situation happen to an online friend. It’s good to be empathetic. It’s good to be kind, but please set boundaries.
I think a lot of these criticisms are very valid, particularly the bit about 5 pebbles talking less robotic. I never noticed it but I do think that is an issue. Also the lineage system, while I never cared about it personally, is a big issue to leave out of the new areas. However I feel like some of your issues are things that were issues at least to some extent with the base game, particularly hunter, and it’s sort of weird to praise hunter so highly and then criticize downpour for the same things. You say that downpours focus on the slugcats fulfilling iterator storylines rather than the slugcats being the focus is a bad thing, but hunter was a purposed organism sent by NSH. The main goal of their campaign is definitively iterator related. Yes you can choose to ascend instead- so can all of the downpour scugs. And honestly both artificers and gourmands stories are significantly less iterator related than hunter’s. Also you criticize the DLC campaign creatures for basically all just being variations of existing creatures. But again that’s exactly the same as what hunter did. Red lizards, red centipedes, cyan lizards, king vultures, spitter spiders are all just variations of existing enemies, no better nor worse than caramel lizards, mother spiders, aquapedes, or miros vultures. Also as an aside, I think your criticism of mother spiders being mostly passive is just really weird, I really like rain worlds variety of creature behaviors and it makes complete sense that spiders carrying their children wouldn’t want to engage in combat. And while I definitely think completely new creatures in downpour would’ve been cool, even survivor mostly used variations of existing creatures. Past the early game where everything is new, there’s very little completely unique creatures, because the late game mostly reuses enemies from earlier areas. For example, sky islands- reuses blue, white, and yellow lizards, squidcadas, egg bugs, etc, and adds centiwings as a new variation. That’s basically the same as what the DLC areas do, reusing enemies but with a different combination and variations. Since the dlc areas are more different I think completely unique creatures would’ve fit them better though, and still would’ve been cool. I’m just pointing out creature reuse is far from downpour exclusive, but only really gets brought up in the context of downpour.
After watching this video I realised why I stopped playing rainworld after a while. I was looking for the old gameplay form my first play through, But I was looking for something that was blurred and hidden. I think I just found the reason why I have played only really hunter gourmand and spear master after my first play through of downpour. They are the closest to the gameplay of my first play through. Hunter was just a part of original game, it’s very similar to survivors gameplay except with increased difficulty. Gourmand without the extreme abuse of crafting and stomach items is very fun to try and manoeuvre around creatures and obstacles with less then desirable movement is fun and succeeding is satisfying. Spearmaster, like you said is the least overturned of the new slugs making the stronger enemy spawns and new map layout difficult but amazing to figure out and master. I’m not going to say I dislike the other new slugs but I wish it was more of the game I wanted. I hope the next update can improve on this if they add a new campaign.
i still think saint was exactly what the original game was, from its ending, the final region, the somber atmosphere and dialog, saint sure has his tongue ability but it doesn't mean you are invincible and untouchable, plenty of creatures can still out-run saint and the fact that he cant throw spears significantly complicates the task of dealing with enemies in crammed spaces. The first and the main part of saint's campaign effectively involves having to go through every region collecting echoes and only after having done that, you receive the power to "tie loose ends", go to literal hell and finish where you've started. The empty bridge is one of the strongest moments in the entire game and the ending perfectly encapsulates the whole idea of that world.
@@sorbetcafe you have pretty much played through the entire thing by the time you get ur shotgun, u just need to put the final remnants of the old world to rest and go join them yourself in hell.
If i recall, all of the dialouge between Suns and NSH were written by a fan of rainworld, being let onto the team for downpour. I am not saying this in a negative way, i always think its great when fans get to help contribute to media they love.
The mod-turned-dlc itself is written by fans and superficially revised by the devs to fit a mold it was never trying to fill in the first place. The end result is years of community AU fanfiction very hastily attempted to be bent into a vaguely base narrative-coherent shape to appease deadlines
Some gourmand stuff im surprised you didnt mention: The inclusion of the containment wall at all being added to the lore, its such a big new element which shifts the original "you are lost in a vast unknown world" story to just "you are trapped here" not to mention the massive inconsistencies it creates which even the devs agreed to. -Changes monk and survivor campaign to be way less meaningful until OE gate is presented as an arbitrary obstacle -Changes the entiere way the clouds work for the sake of having "avobeskyview" because its pretty -It doesnt rain in there so the survivor intro doesnt make sense anymore (they tried to justify it by adding rain exactly in the cameo room which is very dumb) -Everything regarding "time and distance" between monk and survivor intros to gameplay was lost and impossible to explain now Additionally i dont like the slugcat paintings AT ALL, they look so human, so perfect, so "i used my pro pen with my graphic tablet to do this" are these really meant to be cave paintings? where is the abstraction? Compare slugcat draws with scavenger ones, scavs have that iconic blue and white gibberish drawings with a lot of symbolism and stripes, makes it unique and interesting to look at, meanwhile slugcats just went to an art school and sell their commisions on twitter.
Apparently, downpour is a completely separate canon/an alternate universe, which I learned about an hour ago. So, none of the lore in it is "canon" to the original game. Which is... a decision, to say the least.
@@sorbetcafe yea its an AU because the devs knew it was so different from the original lore they wanted to do anything they could to differenciate themselves but akuparagames was like ""nah, mods? AU? that doesnt sell games, we will make this official DLC and never mention the word "mod" or "community content" in any marketing post regarding downpour""
Hm, if I had known it was an AU beforehand I probably would've been a lot more forgiving, but that lack of communication doesn't sit very well with me @@jevmenyt3422
I think one of the most obvious immersion breaking parts of downpour is literally hitting invisible walls or jumping out of bounds in rooms. This was definitely doable in the regular game but it’s way more frequent and obvious when playing as saint artificer and occasionally rivulet that it sometimes feels like these slug cats don’t even belong in the world they’re in.
The thing is with the iterators, they’re ai, with artificial emotions a d artificial thoughts. They were made to do a specific task but having normal conversations would be expected of something that will get bored. They talk to eachother because they want to, not only to solve the problem they were made to solve
I don't think the iterators way of speaking is caused by them being machines. It just reflects the culture of their creators, the ancients, who are extremely pompous and verbose in their Pearl messages. The iterators are actually less officious than ancients when they talk, although that's probably because the context of communication. Instead of making iterator dialogue more stilted and computer-like like you suggest I'd rather it would be more reflective of ancients alien cultural quirks, like their naming conventions, hemaphroditism, contradictions between their ambition and wanting to escape the cycle, and so on.
TRUE! I think it’s a mix of both, more in that being a machine is bound to cause some disconnect between them and the culture of the ancients, but yessss yes absolutely.
Thank you so much for taking the time to make this. You have perfectly encapsulated so many of my misgivings with Downpour. Like you, I admire it immensely as a work of love and effort, but it's held back by what is simply a lack of understanding of game design that that the original Rain World demonstrated so well: 'Cool' is not as important as restraint. 'Powerful' is only rewarding if you are also sometimes weak. 'Fun' is not always the right choice for every moment, especially if you're trying to make people feel something, and create an experience than stays with someone. What really breaks my heart is how CLOSE some of the aspects got, only to miss the mark. Like, Gourmand would have been a cool 'alt-slugcat' if he just had the increased spear power and stomping attack, in conjunction with his exhaustion mechanic and smaller jump. But to that we add meals..? Crafting...? Gah... In some respects, Downpour's biggest weakness is the same as Elden Ring's: It could be improved so much simply by subtracting things from it. Less dialogue. Fewer directives. Smaller superpowers. So many of Rain World's best moments were when there wasn't anything flashy going on: the long and tense swims in Shoreline, the careful outwitting of a lone lizard, the satisfaction of filling your belly after living on the brink of starvation for several cycles. Give me more space for Rain World to be Rain World.
Around the end of 2022, I sat down to do another playthrough of rain world after not playing for a while. Erased save data, new survivor campaign, let's go. I didn't get out of outskirts before I got bored and quit. The main flaw with rain world is also its main strength. The feeling of your first playthrough is carried SO hard by that sense of wonder and the unknown. It really works to their advantage. The problem is, once you know everything that happens, without that sense of wonder, the game is. Kind of dull if I'm being honest. There's only so many self imposed rule sets and challenges you can do. One thing I will give downpour is that it brought that initial feeling back. As flawed as it is, it really helped in briefly rekindling that curiosity. Now I'm in the same situation as I was before downpour, just burnt out and bored. I hope so much that the rumours of more new content are true (but only if the devs HAVE actually learnt from the downpour mistakes) since mods really aren't the same. Downpour isn't perfect by a long shot, but it managed to make the game feel a bit new for a while, so I still think it's a net win
Also not many people seem to know but downpour was almost entirely fanmade. It was originally meant to be a mod, and only became official towards the end of the development process
on one hand, i would absolutely love another slug which felt like the base game with new wonders. But on the other, i feel as though the entire story of rainworld has been masterfully wrapped up and it would be kind of strange to keep it going.
I think downpour did a great job in illustrating the past, present and future of its world, some regions are different from another depend on the timeline. And also, downpour had the best campaign I’ve ever played: Saint :D
this is a really great video that sums up a lot of what was bothering me about the DLC. i especially appreciate the dissection regarding the iterators' dialogue, as it wasn't really something i could put into words or analyze in more than just a general feeling. it's not necessarily the base ideas that were the issue, or that they're emotional at all or even that their fates change, but rather the way they express their personalities and emotions are extremely exaggerated, lacking the detachment and apathy they had in the base game (which obviously comes as a result of endless futile cycles). it just could've used better execution. additionally, there were things that i personally did miss (esp. the lack of lineages in DP regions). i think one of my biggest gripes i didn't see in the vid was the shift away from ascension's moral-greyness/uncaring nature into more of a black-and-white bad concept. the undergrowth echo implying that ascension was forced onto all ancients, the alternate endings for arty, monk, and surv (i think they were good ideas, but for arty it's very unclear what happened to them, it didn't seem like they ascended or became an echo, and for the latter 2, its a pretty nice reunion but they don't take into account which ending you got with surv which was a shame and it seems a lot of people just treat them as the superior ending), etc.. the direction wasn't really the problem, but the way it was done, it doesn't really fit well with the OG narrative/lore/themes or the gameplay loop imo, especially with saint whose motivations feel so opaque. i hope the watcher is an improvement overall in terms of a more cohesive expansion esp. since the original videocult team are going to be far more involved. it's great the game received its flowers thru DP but i think as an artistic experience it's not really close to the same level as the base game.
This is a great video, and I agree with pretty much everything in it! I share your stances and Jimmy McGee’s about the fundamental disconnect between what made the original game such a magical experience and what downpour was. I think he put it best when he said downpour was “about as good as it could have been”, knowing that deviations would happen, but still enjoying it for what it is. It makes me a bit nervous about the upcoming updates to the base game, but I hope videocult hears these critiques and takes them to heart to make the expansion just as magical to new players as the original game.
Yeah, I mostly made this video because more updates are planned, and I'd like to see those updates not make some of the same decisions. I still get emotional reading through Hunter's dialogue, particularly Moon saying "I hope... this was meaningful for you. It was for me." That, to me, is absolutely beautiful, as are her lines immediately after waking up, in a way that nothing in Downpour accomplishes. Downpour ruins a lot of impactful moments with things like the "And as your Big Sis, you know how protective I am of you!~" line. I have no doubt that future updates will be fun. But I want to see more of Rain World, not more of Downpour. I fell in love with art, not a platformer.
The OG game will always be a timeless masterpiece to me, hell I still go back and replay hunter campaign every once and a while. I consider downpour to be a fanmade mod but a heartfelt one at that with a ton of fun features.
Cool video! While playing through downpour I couldn't help but feel something was wrong, and I sympathise quite a lot with this video. Imo, most of the new content added misses the themes of the base game, kinda dumbing rain world down to another platformer with some expansive lore. Before, I felt rain world didn't give you all the answers, and didn't appeal to fan service, leaving a lot of things up to the player to interpret, wheras downpour takes this away. For example, as cool as saint's campaign is, I don't particularly like the finality of it: the base game would've let you interpret what happens in the future, without you being there to see it, which i feel also ties into the theme it set up that the world will move on without you, and that as slugcat, you don't matter. Same with the carefully crafted ecosystem, which was one of the main reasons i first picked this game up: downpour doesn't give much care to it, giving all the new slugcats overpowered abilities as if they're above everything else. Videocult put a lot of effort into making a believable environment that you were apart of, whereas downpour suffers from making the slugcats gods. I appreciate the effort put into downpour from the devs: you can tell the whole team had a lot of love for rain world, and admittedly, I enjoyed a lot of the expansion for a while. But looking back in retrospect, it really steps over a lot of what made rain world truly special. I'm glad (even if they didn't made it obvious) that the team clarified downpour isn't canon to the base game, so I can carry on playing as survivor and hunter without a worry. At the end of the day, it's my opinion tho and everyone has their personal preferences.
spearmaster is so much better experienced when you ignore the broadcasts entirely and are left in the dark as to the context of your journey until meeting moon, when experienced this way i feel as if spearmaster is probably the best downpour campaign, also looks to the moon is an awesome region maybe its just not for you
I feel this video Sometimes i start a new survivor campaign and pretend i know nothing about the game, try to replicate my first time playing it and lay attention more to the background layers and music and sound effects I also really regret that when i got lost inside the massive world after the yellow overseer stopped helping me (because of a certain food accident) i resorted to looking for direction guidance Im also a bit sad that on my first play through i went to pebbles through chimney canopy instead of underhang. The entrance from the top sure was more grand but the one from underhand was more mysterious, terrifying, tragic and alive.
I remember my first playthrough and when I entered 5P from Underhang. When I saw that I was in zero-gravity I was so confused but then I remembered that I have been climbing for a while now so I just thought that I climbed to space. 😂
I very much enjoyed this thoughtful analysis and it brought up many points. However, with regards to Five Pebbles and Looks to the Moon: They are people. They might be very alien, but things are only ever alien until you learn more about them. I acknowledge a few inconsistencies, but overall, I don't see a problem with revealing more of the lore. I do admit that some of the lore is more obvious that it once was, but I like that it reveals things that were previously speculation. It answers some of the questions we had about it, and that allows us to understand more of the situation of the iterators in a way we never could before.
After reading a lot of the comments, I think people didn’t fully understand the lore of the base game before going into downpour. The iterators are exceptionally “human”. The way they communicated with each other was familiar and informal. I loved downpour and yes I loved the story too.
Pretty harsh at times but I agree. To be fair gourmands crafting of a singularity bomb is VERY hard to find and craft, you need two karma flowers to craft one bomb. I loved your restructure of artificer. I have never had much lag or crashes. Mods change that making it pretty unstable. Overall good video, and something that needed to be said.
Amazing video! I agree with you on basicly all of these points. I never really realized how much was lost from the base game in the DLC. I did really like (most) of the new capeigns. It felt like a reward to be able to obliterate the predators that had beaten me down for so long. The ridiculous abilities of the new slugcats were just really, really fun to use. But the story, lore, and feeling of the game definitely diminished. I'd say that 80% of the stuff that i experienced in the new capeigns didn't give the same kind of incredible wonder and awe that Survivor's did. In my opinion, the co-op mode was undoubtedly the best part. I've gotten two friends to purchase and experience the base game through the power of co-op shenanigans. To be honnest, I think playing the gsme with co-op is one of the best ways to experience the game. As long as you let your friends struggle through the game and learn the mechanics without too much interjection, it greatly enhances the experience. If my friends are getting frustrated with something, I can nudge them in the right direction. They're still geting the rainworld experiance, but I can be there to help or give a hint if its too much for them. Good stuff! The DLC music is awesome. Co-op is awesome. Hunter is awesome. Rainworld is awesome.
YES yes yes yes these are near exactly my thoughts. As my own addition to your points: I'm not very fond of is how.. extremely important every Downpour slugcat is. Spearmaster was the catalyst who inadvertently caused Pebbles to contract the Rot & collapse Moon. Artificer singlehandedly sets back the local scavenger population's civilization by an age. Rivulet is responsible for performing Iterator Heart Surgery. Everything about Saint. They're all Integral to the Overarching Iterator Plot in a way the base game slugcats never really were. Sure, Hunter does revive Moon, but the impact of that action is fairly small; you're saving a single life from oblivion, and at the sacrifice of your own. Nothing much happens after that, besides Moon being awake to interact with Survivor and Monk. And those two slugcats can have *very* minimal impact on the world, passing through it almost like ghosts. The DLC's storyline just feels dissonant with how slugcats are presented; as small, waywards creatures of no particular renown, treated the same as the rest of the wildlife by the iterators. I don't know about you, but to me Artificer is not normal wildlife.
i agree with most of what was said… but i feel like this all boils down to- “rain world was perfect for what it was- A+” “downpour fails to meet perfection- A-“
@@Gathsidespoison this is so accurate, downpour does unfortunately fail to meet the perfection that was og rain world and is very different in a lot of ways. But is still a phenomenal addition and one that I feel did alot for the game
@@First_love_late_spring Downpour is the reason I picked up the game- I heard about rainworld's ecosystem but seeing how weakly the suvivor moved through their environment, I decided to pass on the game. Until I saw spearmaster and was like "hell yeah, that looks enjoyable- navigating a world of deadly predators that I can turn the tables on if I am clever and sneaky enough? Perfect." Also the gourmand looked like a fun time too- "brains over armoured and mobile predators? nice" - I can appreciate the suvivor's campaign, but downpour and the story they added sold me on it enough I try to advertise it to others as something special.
I believe the biggest detriment to the original Rain World experience is the inclusion of the in-game tutorials as default in the remix menu. I don’t like the idea of new players not getting a chance to discover the movement tech on their own like a real slugcat would have to. It would have fundamentally changed my first experience of the game and I don’t know if I would have the 1.5k hours I have in it if they were included when I gave the game a shot for the first time…
From my understanding remix is disabled by default and the player needs to turn it on first, which is why I approached it more kindly, but yeah I honestly hate those loading tips and they feel like the antithesis of the base game’s design.
no offense but this is total bullshit. if i wasnt told about them, i would likely have gone through the ENTIRE game not knowing how to backflip, slide, roll, throw boost, downspear, starve, slide spear, etc... these are all wonderful mechanics and the argument of "you need to figure them out on your own" is completely insane to me. lets be honest here, 99% of rain world players are NEVER going to figure out that "move in one direction, change direction, jump, release all keys and only hold down, and then throw" is an actual intended series of inputs. praise base rain world all you want, but the horrible tutorialization is not an issue you can wave away with "its intended"
@@bionicleapple1254 Firstly, it is intended, the devs confirmed as much in an interview with Gamasutra where they expressed that they “wanted the experience to be free from direction and as textless as possible”. Secondly, I’m not saying it’s for everyone, but when you do start grasping the instinctive feel of how your slugcat moves, it’s an incredible experience. I’d recommend reading “Rain World: On Difficulty and Exulting in a Disabled Body” by Thomas Sullivan. It’s a great piece that sums up the triumphs of not conceding tutorials to new players.
I really like how this video talks about the problem with the ecosystem aspect not being played out enough, it made me genuinely sad that they just added some already existing species variations instead of giving the player a new land to explore Fantastic video, by the way. I share a ton of opinions with you about this DLC and it explains the problems with Downpour really well. Its an imperfect DLC for a perfect game, but I still respect it for bringing an passion project to reality
I actualy dont think that the DLC is the pronlem, its more the fact that Rain World is one of those games that are meant to be truely experianced ones (like undertale, one shot, hollow knight, doki doki literature club ect.) they had to make the scugs overpowered because games like Rain World lose a part of their charm ones there is nothing new to learn aboute. So if they made the new scugs with the same mentality as hunter (adding a few minor changes) then the game would become staile as theres realy not mutch to do. They will literaly need to make Rain World 2 with compleatly new founa, locations and lore building on top of everything we already have, to please you with something similar to the original Rain World survivor experiance.
While I agree with some of the stuff you've said, I have a large disagreement on what you've said about the iterators. Especially the five pebbles section. Though it makes little sense for spearmaster to have any idea what's going on with the iterator comms, I still enjoy them and I think the iterator discord chats are mostly in character for everything I understood about the iterators pre-downpour. From what I've heard in relation to Five Pebbles, I believe I've seen a developer mention how pretty much all of the Five Pebbles dialogue in downpour was first sent to Joar, the original writer of Five Pebbles, and essentially given an A+. A large issue of downpour for me is already stated in another comment, the unclear nature of the DLC, its story, and its separation from vanilla rain world, as well as some of the internal development issues I've heard about it. It annoys me to no end that I've seen, and continue to see, a large amount of confusion over Downpour being separate from Rain World, as well as the canon status of a certain challenge. Another issue that feels a bit lesser is my incredible suspicion of akupara games, Buddy, and whatever was going on in the development of Downpour. I recall a time when the server was up in flames with developers claiming about a lack of communication from Akupara and the lead dev, as well as some issue about trading cards being awkward and containing creature spoilers such as Daddy Long Legs, back before or just after downpour released. I'm not sure what to make of it though as I'm not nearly as active in the RW discord anymore, and it all just seems to have been swept under the rug with Buddy going like "This is my reaction to all this: ._.". I've also seen a few others still complain about Akupara Games. EDIT:I'd also agree somewhat on narrative diversity. While I loved downpour and its stories and gameplay, I do dislike how almost every campaign (except saint) ended up being "Go find Five Pebbles." I do dislike how his the entire movement of the story. He gives you the pearl to give to moon as Spearmaster, he fixes your drone and tells you to go kill scavengers as artificer, he opens the gate to outer expanse as gourmand, and he tells you to get the rarefaction cell as Rivulet. I do hope that in any future stories they rekindle the exploration from survivor and saint where the plot isn't just "Go find local iterator and do what they say."
My own thoughts (please note I started playing AFTER downpour released so my arguments are littered with bias): -Downpour is just a bunch of fans making a story for the game, I wouldn’t think of it as definitively canon but most people (including me) tend to gravitate towards it because it adds more to the characters we love -Iterator dialogue in communications broadcasts and data pearls are meant to be silly chats between them, I wouldn’t expect them to be as cold. I do have to agree that as computers they seem too alive, but as biologically engineered creatures it makes sense for them to have personalities. -You seem to push the new slugcat abilities very far out of proportion. Spearmaster has infinite spears, but they can’t store anything, they are forced not to prepare and use battle instincts to survive. Artificer is not just an infinite bomb cat, she is hunted by a creature found almost everywhere and needs her combat and mobility skills to survive that. Gourmand is quite powerful, but struggles to use those abilities due to exhaustion. Rivulet is just more athletic than everyone else, they don’t seem too godlike when you realize they just go fast. Saint’s ending ability is quite overpowered, but before that they are relatively well-balanced in terms of enemy types, going up against ranged enemies like spitter spiders and flying enemies like centiwings. When you think about it these are just interesting gimmicks that are expanded upon. To add to that, -The mystery of the original game was great, but without downpour replayability seems stale after you’ve explored it all. I feel like downpour wanted to create new mystery by opening new paths, for example the ancients, by giving us just a little bit more about them the community has gone wild, I believe there’s an hour long video talking about just the ancients and what their culture could have been like. I do wish they kept more for new players. -I have to agree the “visit pebbles, go somewhere” formula is a LITTLE bland, but it is the same for the vanilla slugcats as well. -Overall, I loved the downpour DLC. The new slugcats are more like new classes to me. I think the environmental storytelling is still great, Saint’s bridge moment the greatest I remember. I’m glad more artists are on the team, but I wish the character select screens’ art styles mirrored the originals better. I loved learning every new thing about the world and each campaign left me with questions I was eager to find the answer to. As a community-driven project it won’t be the same as the original, but they did a good job making their own sort of sequel to rain world. It seems the DLC had more focus on story than gameplay, but I think that’s okay because the gameplay is already great. 11/10 I have played again
Just finished the video. Fantastic retrospective; I’ve found myself feeling similarly after the initial rush of Downpour’s release wore off. You also put what was off about the dialogue into words- I couldn’t figure out why I was so off-put by it. And the lack of lineage in new areas is very telling. A big critique I personally had with downpour is that the new areas (submerged superstructure in particular) did not feel like ecosystems. They are levels designed to put obstacles in the way of the player- I couldnt see myself just stopping and watching the world in these new regions. What do the giant jellyfish interact with? Leviathans eat them sometimes, I suppose. Miros vultures only serve the purpose of killing slugcat. Yeeks eating gooeyducks and then gooeyducks being effective against wormgrass- *that* is what I would have liked to see more of. The ecosystem feels less interconnected and more like everything just hates you specifically, and that was a huge detriment to the DLC, to me. I once heard somebody say that, in expanding the world, downpour has, ironically, made it feel smaller. Good video.
What is exactly your issue with iterators being basically humans operating a giant supercomputer facility? That has always been the case. In one of the Sky Islands pearls (pre-downpour, mind you) Suns reassures Pebbles about *every* iterator being frustrated with the search for the solution to the great problem. Moon tells that many go insane in their cans. I doubt a cold unfeeling machine would be able to experience something like that. Story-wise, iterators being human-like is *integral* to the chain of events that has happened. Pebbles getting frustrated with his predicament and isolating himself or Sig trying to aid his dear friend and creating a messenger. Iterators are individuals who can and do care about each other Iterators have always been kind of silly with each other in the group chats, you either didn't really care about the pearl dialogues or straight up didn't mention them on purpose for whatever reason and your examples feel unnecessarily nitpicky at times, on top of calling them "fanficcy" edit: typo; irrelevant point removed, i was wrong
I haven’t watched the video yet, and I’m about to, but I just want to give my input here, sorry if I bring up a point already mentioned or just a bad one in general. Im usually completely wrong, though. I feel like with the base campaigns, whatever you did, wherever you went, it was YOUR story to be told. You could just not revive moon if you wanted to in Hunter, or if you didn’t know. The campaign didn’t just stop at the iterators. In downpour though, there is a ‘canon’ path for some slugcats, and more emphasis is put into the iterators’ stories. Not really complaining, but I liked the idea of the slugcats’ fates being up to interpretation. :/ All of them end in breaking the cycle. In Monk or Survivor, it’s breaking the cycle of grief. Not sure for Hunter, but to get Karma 10 (in your first play through) you and your slugcat have to work together to break the cycle. It can be anything, to be fair, even an aspect of you as the player. And it’s extremely difficult and time-consuming to even accept change, let alone act on it. Acceptance is the first step to anything. I feel Downpour doesn’t consider that with the new slugcats and their endings. And about the iterators: Remember a character is only as smart as its writer. Keeping things unknown and mysterious allows you to fill in the gaps, and Five Pebbles feels overwhelming as his first impression, so that’s what you make of his character. Downpour subverts the mystery a bit, I guess. Moon’s lore pearls also kept some things up to interpretation, and it’s a hidden mechanic (not scattered around the places players are more likely to visit and disguised as collectibles) so I suppose that’s why it doesn’t feel out of place.
it would have been so much better if downpour never existed and MSC, expedition and jolly coop remained as free content to download, people wouldnt be so harsh on MSC since it was always meant to be a mod so the perception thowards it as not official content would have made it more enjoyable, aditionally without akupara intervention the devs would have made a BETTER more slugcats expansion, since the publisher put so many restrictions to the team. Only downside would be that the game would remain more on the niche side (which i can see some ppl even prefeering), but yea. Also coop being paid content now and the removal of the free mod is just scummy cashgrab from the publisher. But hey, lets increase the main game prize by 5 bucks after doing all we could to paywall QoL changes
Looking back on this after the watcher DLC was announced, I agree with a lot of the criticisms. However I feel if they changed the dialogue and adjusted some of the storylines (And nerfed gourmand), it would be perfect. The power trip is real but that is unavoidable with this kind of content. Hopefully the Watcher campaign stays more faithful to the main game. Given that the old devs are back on the team, I have hope.
despite me absolutely loving downpour, i've gotta agree! although i would have never complained about these stuff because of how much i love the game and the dlc, i still acknowledge these differences only because to me personally, rain world and downpour are two completely different canons if that makes sense. When downpour came out, i was ecstatic because I LOVED (and still do) the lore and everything to do with the iterators and the ancients. I was so happy to finally learn more, and to me, that's what downpour is. it isnt a "sequel" to the game itself, its a series of stories designed specifically to continue or explain the very little we had to work with in the base game's lore. When I played the DLC, i used cheats to get through most of them JUST so i can get to the iterators and find out the story, the gameplay was unique but it did not give me the same kind of feel as when i first played before downpour. Whenever I theorize something, depending on what it is, i separate the base game canon from downpour's canon, favoring the base game when doing research because, as you said, downpour feels more like a fanfiction. I personally love that, dont get me wrong, but only as something for fun or headcanons. knowing that downpour was originally a mod made by fans of the game and the original devs had very little intervention in the production of the DLC only ever changing a few pieces of dialogue and mechanics, the difference is glaring. Additionally, I 100% agree that they had so much potential with the dreams in downpour. I was SO disappointed when i realized most of the more slugcats didnt have dreams. artificer's dreams were satisfying enough for me but some impactful artwork would have DEFINITELY been better. I think what I wouldve loved from downpour is if they sort of continued the story of survivor and monk's family and possibly expanding on the world outside the iterator facilities and slugcat culture by having a campaign where you play as survivor and monk's third sibling. While I LOVE the continuation of the iterators' story, it doesnt do it the same way the base game slugcats do which makes me treat downpour as a completely different canon/universe. We needed more environmental storytelling where things are mainly told to us from the environment or pearls that arent always relevant to the main iterator story. Even if I would have preferred that downpour had at least one campaign that was mostly about the slugcat exploring new environments instead of being a vessel to help tell a story that isnt about them while navigating through the same rooms we already know, I still love downpour for what it is to the death. downpour has its own charm. it may not be the exact same as the base game, but it does have its own qualities that make it very enjoyable even if a bit fan fictiony, which lets be frank, thats what the whole dlc is. A big ol' playable fan-fiction supported by the original devs :)
Well, it’s not just your headcanon, downpour and the base game are apparently completely different universes. This was just poorly communicated from the devs
meh, i dont think artificer is that unbalanced at all. she is literally just a death machine for everything else, but her campaign is pretty heavy in scavenger combat, which to be honest, already has people whining about the difficulty in metropolis, and if it was something like just regular survivor then it would be completely unfair. everything else in this video is super valid though. there's even dev commentary saying writing dialogue for FP was a real struggle. broadcasts as spearmaster are implemented very weirdly yes, but i can't help but feel they were just there as an extra lore dump. like, you encounter like 2 if you're not actively hunting for them. I guess for that they could just add more pearls but i cant imagine the pain of having a region with 7+ colored pearls. I'm shocked this video did not bring up rubicon.
I never really had strong thoughts on rubicon, it was just kinda there, never had much trouble with it and very rarely end up there since it’s not in expedition and I very rarely play Saint. It’s weird for lore and it feels very odd in terms of gameplay, but everything in Saint is a fever dream anyway.
I'd argue artificer is unbalanced, since the only thing to really check your power is scavenger spam, and everything else is just free food. The regions themselves are varying levels of suited to interesting scavenger combat, with some rooms like the garbage industrial transition rooms just being unfair. But metropolis is imo the worst for the scav spam since it is mostly just flat planes and plafforms on various elevations making the combat kind of boring and frustrating. Scavengers being a lesser spammed enemy in the roster would already be interesting while you brave through hunter spawns, atleast if artificer wasn't so busted with their abilities and crafts.
I dont really have the same feeling with the OP of slugcats. You still get one shot and the one time you have a double jump you have an entire tribal species praying on your downfall so its balanced. But for rivulet, yeah shes just fuckin op when you remove the energy cell. With gourmand he isnt really a real "Slugcat" and instead is a depection of what the slugcats thought of him (mostly why his entire campaign only opens a gate) Saint is frail and unable to eat meat and cant almost store food for the next cycle. He also has to deal with intenser spawns a cold climate that freezes you to death but because hes "Sorta" fast its balanced (Atleast in my eyes) As for the spearmaster dialoge, I dont mean to start an arguement but you kinda said them in a very VERY annoying voice in order to show how bad there dialouge is, now this isnt bad its just that you used it ALL THE TIME even in the nice dialouge that I liked! and yes they are massive organic supercomputers but that doesnt mean that they dont have personalites if you locked even albert einstin in a room for 500 years he would go insane! The supercomputers talk like this because they are ORGANIC and have a sense of humor mostly because the ancients wanted that. Main reason why he plays his pearl at the end of rivs campaign
I love downpour to death but, the killer to me is the loading tips, they are the worst thing added to this game. Also I feel that each slugcat should have a creature that is common in there caimpaign that completely counters its abilities and makes you more like survivor. Arti has cyans which are just as maneverable though I feel something with explosion resistance would be better. Saint has zooplizards which I think are absolutely perfect for it, besides their rarity. The rest of them however, have nothing to counteract there otherwise kinda broken abilities. Also I think riv should have always had short shelter cycles. And regions like drainage and lower industrial, shaded, and garbage waste should be more flooded. And for the iterator Dialogue, I like it. To me at least, they seemed more human than the game lets on, they are very biological and clearly have personality. The whole point of five pebbles was him not wanting to be a bug, a cog in the machine which is what caused the chaos in the game. Of course, some of the dialogue could be reworked. Like what you mentioned, gourmand could have been, more rude like survivors and moon shouldn’t have as much of an immediate liking to riv and shouldn’t have told them how to get into submerged, that’s what pebbles overseer should have done moon should have told him to try and return it to where they got it and it should have been the player who choose to help her. Artis dialogue is fine imo five pebbles can relate to her a ton having an anger unable to be quenched due to his circumstances arti is like an outlet for his own struggles. And for the general tone throughout the caimpaign makes sense if you think of them as more human than robot. He’s growing as a character, however his growth comes after it matters, if he had his mindset he does in riv in let’s say arti it would have completely changed his fate. And his distain for everything in spear and his general, teenage audited makes sense for one of the youngest iterator with everyone talking down on him. Some things definitely could have gone better like creature spawns and some of the dialogue. Though most of it isn’t that bad and it’s still an amazing update even if what I said was moot.
In all honesty pacing change was needed. Hunter campaign already provides "vanilla but harder" experience. Therefore making slugcats with unusual abilities is necessary for providing sth new and interesting, and not just another hunter. Though i fully agree Slugcat abilities especially gourmand and artificer are absolutely overtuned. Gourmand abilities are just soo goofy, crafting system is weird and feels unreal. At least there is hint gourmand story is just that, an overexagerated story. For artificer idk, it just doesnt feel right. We get terminator of a slugcat with 0 explanation for those insane combat abilities and campaign tries to balance that by drowning player in scavs making everything absolutely chaotic. (large scav groups function really badly from both immersion and their ai standpoint). Definitelly needed some more work here.
I agree with you on some points, but I think you're too harsh on the dlc. Keep in mind you're anything but an average player btw ^v^ I think the dlc slugcats are well made. The difficulties vary, but I think every slug is hard or enjoyable in some way. The double jump of Artificer, unlimited spears of Spearmaster, and tongue of Saint are all very useful movement abilities that don't feel wrong to me in a world where there are lizards with telepathy and explosive propulsion systems that seem to have evolved somewhat naturally. Artificer, Gourmand, and Rivulet have abilities that open up new higher level play. My favorite campaign was Spearmaster, because of the story of the Itorators. I think the characterization of them all is certainly different, but not bad. They're more human, and I think that's good. It's as if after all the time you spent with them in the base game, you get to know them better. Seven Red Suns in particular is interesting. They speak in a foreign way to others. They're more empathetic, in a sense, but still a god that is isolated from socialization. I agree with you about a lot though. Gourmand and Saint do feel like gods at a certain point. Gourmand is a folk hero who is a casual 4th wall break. Saint's ascension powers and whole plot are both unsatisfying and ungrounded. They both feel like utter jokes, and I did not enjoy them. I did however, cry a lot during Saint's campaign lol. Rivulet's rain timer disappearing, and Artificer's cutscenes, were things I didn't love, but didn't hate. Now that you brought them up though, I do agree that they should've been different. I don't think the Artificer cutscenes were up to the downpour team though. It feels like they would've done art if the could. Maybe I'm just crazy though. I wanted to point out that there are some big decisions you can make that the game doesn't tell you about, too. Ascending Pebbles or Moon was an option in Saint's campaign that never even occurred to me honestly. The confrontation between Artificer and the Scavenger Chieftain felt right to me in a similar way too. Finally, I didn't know about the lineage system being completely unutilized! That honestly makes me really mad! Thanks for voicing your opinion! I appreciate it as a fan of the channel ^v^
I didn’t really mean to come off as harsh on the DLC, but I wanted to be able to properly talk about the issues in it without having to sugar coat it. It often feels like there’s a near universal love of everything in downpour and there’s a stigma around criticizing it, which leads to the need to articulate criticisms very clearly and firmly rather than vague “I didn’t really like this,” statements. Most of the video is formatted as “here is a change that was made, here is proof of that change, here is why I don’t like that change.”
your criticisms of saint upset me greatly because they are easily the best DP 'campaign' due to its nature of being a love letter to the game itself rather than a 'story'. At least... to me.
My criticisms of Saint mostly revolved around saints actual mechanics and not the story/world. I didn’t mention Saint much in this video aside from that. Saint’s ascension in particular is REALLY jarring and tonally odd, it’s like playing with dev tools. Is that a necessary part of the love letter? Is saint’s campaign better for having it? Personally, I thought saint’s campaign was all downhill after hitting the last echo. That doesn’t mean Saint is bad, or the campaign is bad. A criticism of something you love isn’t black and white. Finding flaws in a good thing doesn’t make it a bad thing. @@elshelalu2027
@@sorbetcafe - One thing I think a lot about (with sadness) is how much more moving and effective the Saint's ascension mechanic would be if it didn't include the 'fly' and 'sniper scope' elements. You know what would have been perfect? Have the Saint ascend things by grasping onto them. Rather than gunning down Looks to the Moon, you simply embrace her and send her into the next world. It does double duty by allowing the endgame to maintain any sort of challenge.
The saint criticism is dumb because, Even if you have a strong ahh tongue, you still get destroyed until you get the ability. But the path there is pain 😭 Like you need to travel the whole world for the echoes, and then when you get the ability, i still managed to die way too manyand times because the target for saints ability moves slowly and i had to predict where it would go to hit it properly but by then i would get insta killed by a miros vulture. I think the downpour dlc made the slugcats strong, as well as the predators, because in artificier the scavs are sometimes impossible to get through, and pulling spears out of the walls wont help aswell as explosive spears because there will be too many scavs so you will just kill one in a cool way then just get sniped by an elite one. And grenades. Well, those work, but i always forget to make one and always use spears because it's faster. The rivulet is fast, but i wish hell upon who made the rot. The gourmand is a fat mf who gets tired right when i need to fight. And the new creatures that are made to counter these, are annoying. So yeah. No hate
here before the video leaves the target audience or inevitably blows up cuz it's very well made. :D you've pretty much put my general thoughts in video even though there is some stuff i disagree with. i gen think the reason why rain world got so popular with the dlc was due to the main meaning/core message of the game being diluted/overshadowed by the fancontent of the DLC leading people to believe vanilla is "incomplete" and a canvas for "a bigger story"; i wanted to get the dlc because i could support the game, the devs and the modders; i just wish they made it more clear this was an AU and fancontent (not just because of the narrative shift issue but also because the og moders/devs that were brought in deserve literally everything in the world
Overall a very good and balanced critique. I agree with most of your smaller criticisms, though they don’t impact my enjoyment of the mod much. It was intended to be a mod with a separate canon from the base game, and - while I wish they would have made that intention clearer to the community - that clear separation allowed me to be perfectly content with the different goals of the DLC. I must say that I do think your criticism of the story, and particularly the handling of the iterators, was dramatically overblown. Yes, the dialog of the DLC is generally of lower quality than that of the base game, which conveyed its themes far better and generally had superior prose; these are certainly valid critiques. However, you spent a lot of time talking about how the DLC made the iterators into people, when in the base game they were dehumanized supercomputers. This definitely misses the mark. In the base game, the pearl dialog is filled with very human interactions between iterators, some of which you even show on screen but gloss over. I would argue that the iterators were very much intended to have human personalities and dispositions. Pebbles, certainly, acted very high-and-mighty with the slugcats, as you might expect from an inhuman supercomputer, but this was representative of his tragic flaw, the arrogance that had him believe he could escape his fate and ultimately led to his decay and the death of Moon. The DLC didn’t retcon the iterators by giving them personalities, it merely expanded on the slivers of the personalities we were shown in the base game (though whether the directions they took each iterator's character, and the extent to which they developed them, were any good is another story entirely). I would agree, however, that the base game absolutely makes the player _feel_ like they are dealing with an unfathomable alien god when they encounter and speak with Pebbles without diving deeper into the lore, and the DLC does not maintain this feeling in the slightest. Granted, I don't think it would have worked well with the very different goals the DLC had in mind, so that really comes back to whether you agree with those goals in the first place. One thing I'm very surprised you didn't mention was the story change that was the most aggravating to me by far: the idea that Hunter's illness was the Rot, through the introduction of the Hunter Long Legs. This is aggravating to me for many reasons, all exacerbated by the fact that now everyone in the community writes or draws Hunter as having Rot, and I can't stand it. Well, this comment ended up being quite long… sorry about that. Long story short, overall good video, though I do disagree somewhat with your interpretation of the base game.
This might be my brain which has rain world as a core piece of it as of now, but i love downpour so much, of course theres a few flaws, but, i just love it. I've only gotten into rain world in early 2023, thats a good thing about that year for me. Sorry for rambling, i have many thoughts.
god I agree with this so much, especially regarding the tonal differences and gameplay, augh i truly cannot hold downpour to the same standards as basegame in my eyes without getting frustrated, you last point about all the good this game has brought it also very real, but man i have such mixed feelings about it becoming mainstream, i love this game so much but it makes me sad sometimes that the original message has been diluted in favor of becoming more mainstream, the original themes of the game hit me so so hard. i need to deal with my feelings honestly
I also didn't like the writing. It removed any mysteries the game had. Moon in the base game was already odd but only after you get the mark and bring her more stuff to read which is optional, almost secret. Karma and repeating cycles should have been the prime focus of the DLC but I assume the modders never read anything about buddhism
In general I agree with your video. The dialogue is definitely a bit iffy at points, there's a lot of "here's the full context, do exactly this" lines. Though I was mostly ok with Rivulet/SM's story being so iterator focused due to Hunter also being iterator focused. Iterators acting out like members of a Discord server is good but not great, as it is not beyond my own expectations of how hyper intelligent AI stuck in boxes for eternity would act like. For better and worse, Hunter normalized the idea that slugcats can have immense power when dealing with what are essentially gods, and I think all of the DLC campaigns took inspiration mostly from Hunter in terms of narrative. The hardest and most intriguing campaign of them all is Survivor IMO, because it's when you know nothing. Monk and Hunter reusing the regions made sense, they represent easy and hard difficulties. But I think the major flaw of the DLC is that they added all 5 slugcats at once. In a more normal dev cycle, each slugcat would be added one after the other, giving time for each to be tailored with more attention and detail. But because their attention was divided, all of the slugcats reuse the same regions and creatures with very few differences (I'd argue that even the Saint's variants are too similar in most cases). It makes sense to me that they made the DLC slugcats OP, because otherwise the player would have to spend significantly more time retreading through the same base regions just to get to the interesting new regions.
Have you seen the mod for additional hunter endings? Lolight2 did a review recently of the endings and i feel the characterization of NSH is exactly what your looking for. would be interested in your thoughts.
that mod literally turns hunter into another downpour style campaign with a lot of flashbacks into yet another iterator... its the kind of thing this video is complaining about. Art is impressive tho, they are fairly close to Del northern's draws
@@jevmenyt3422 I take your point about the structure of the campaign. my question was about the characterization of the iterator. NSH seemed closer to a supper computer than downpours characterizations. However where the most mystery was the fandom was bound to explore so its unsurprising what we got. (Downpour originally being mods)
i adore both the base game and the dlc, but i think the base game is still better. It is specifically tuned to created an ecosystem, and wildly succeeds in doing so. Downpour is focused on being more of a game, not necessarily throwint away the ecosystem, but noting it down eitherway. they're both still incredible though and i have absolutely no regrets spending the 15 dollars each on them.
@@ranninotfromeldenring2832 each? Wdym I buy the base game for like 25 bucks.. This is why I think the downpour is so worth and fun compared to the base game that only gives you 3
as a long time rain world player, downpour and its affect on the community have only got worse for me as time has gone on. i was so eager to enjoy it, but it was completely kneecapped by akus greed and impatience, and ive lost all faith that theyll bring anything positive to the community
Loved the analysis. Couldn’t agree more. I did not even pick up on the tonal shift in 5P’s communication so this was quite eye-opening. Also, I’ve 100%ed the game and its’ DLC and I still consider Hunter to be my favorite slug… so **fist bump**
I think expanding on the iterators is one of the most relevant choices for a continuation of the rain world story. I mean, they're realistically the most prominent characters in the world. The world is the way it is *because* of the iterators' existence. I think Rain World would be extremely boring with no central plot points like encounters with the iterators to tie the ecosystem and the narrative together.
34:44 Challenges? Absolutely not. These were absolute worst part of entire game. I'm not kidding or exaggerating. These were the most rage inducing and miserable experience with very small exceptions. If anything it reveal so many flaws of game mechanics + controls and lack of play testing. Aimed for most sweatiest players out of there. A lot of them unfair, sadistic or near impossible.And some require wiki or internet search cuz how obscure solutions are
The DLC is like Avatar 2, it tells you everything at the beginning and the sense of surprise disappears. The correct way to do it was leaving more to the player interpretation, to leave the comminity make assumptions or theories about what is happening or why. One thing that rainworld did gorgeously was the ancients. The game only give you hints about them, but does not throws to your face everything about them. The game allowed the community to imagine how do they look, why did they use that architecture, what did they eat, what language did they speak, how did they build their iterators, like, how? I would loved to have seen moon more different than five pebbles in the spearmaster campaign, showing it's deprecated and old technology, with redundant systems or even robots. That moon facility had the tools to repair machines and that the main difference between pebbles and moon would be the use of bio-engineering and robots, respectively. The thing I liked less about rainworld was the dialog between iterators in spearmaster. I would prefered that those weren't in the game. And I hate that the developers leaved a lot of stuff in their discord than on the game, making the casual player unable to know that stuff, even making misinterpretations about the lore, for example, that the challenge 70 was not canon. I liked more about the assumptions that I make on my own about why moon died, how did pebbles kill her, why did he made that such a horrible thing; and not that he was being an annoying emo teenager. Or how pebbles got the rot, something like doctor House applying an alternative way to reconstruct the tissue in his leg knowing the possible consequences and ended up with cancer tumors. I would liked that five pebbles were more like doctor House in behavior, that even fits with the organic supercomputer thing. I don’t know if I can actually apply that changes to the game with a mod or something. It would be pretty cool if I can. (Sorry for the broken english, I tried my best)
I haven’t watched the full vid yet cus work. BUT! I agree with everything so far except, i feel some of characters aren’t OP enough for the DRASTIC difficulty increase there put in. That being Hunter, Artificer, Spear Master. I got no problem with the rest of the characters. But what i call the ‘combat focused’ campaigns are just too harsh for me. In a game of 1 shots, they throw like 3 times the enemies at you, that are all much stronger or more annoying to deal with. Giving near the only option “get gut” & beat the enemies. Also i’ll say. Downpour added laggy or even game crashing situations in the game. That caused COUNTLESS deaths or ‘quits’ that aren’t really my own fault. Where as the base game ran smooth as butter for me. I in a way prefer base game. But i liked what they did with big boy, Riv, & saint. But i also agree. They coulda done things differently.
Halfway through the video and yeah, I mostly agree with your points, as much as I love Downpour. I really don’t like most of the broadcasts, however, there is some neat info in some of them that characterizes SRS and NSH, which I do like (even if it’s written poorly). Maybe they could have like had the broadcast thingy they do in game but when you try to see it it turns into a pearl that you need to bring to Moon? And like, only 5 or so are necessary, not the whole bunch we got. Of course, they would still differ heavily from base game, as we barely got any personality for any other iterators other than Moon and Pebbles, and even then it’s not nearly as in your face as it is in downpour, but I do like seeing the more “human” side of them. Also yes I hate how wall breaky they are which is why I think that would work better. And maybe Rivulet still does the rarefraction cell thing, but is could characterized as more of a nomadic slugcat who likes to go on little journeys instead of just the slugcat that “fixed the bond between two god like entities” or whatever Moon’s dialogue is written as (kind of like how Gourmand and Artificer are characterized?). Oh and maybe they’re slower on land actually but to compensate they’re faster underwater and there are even more floods in than there are in downpour. And the gravity cell can’t actually be used, it’s just like a giant pearl you have to carry (not actually a pearl but like it’s useless to you while moving through the land). And maybe to up the difficulty the floods DO become less frequent after you take the cell and it’s harder for you to navigate because you’re slower on land. Edit 1: Ahhh I saw you dislike the human aspects of them, which I do like, even if I think a lot of the dialogue isn’t great Edit 2: Oh yes, I think the cutscenes should have been art, and I think your Spearmaster Dream idea is better than my broadcast pearl idea. Maybe we could see Suns slowly getting more closer to Spearmaster, and maybe one dream where Spearmaster peers over and sees Suns talking to NSH (because I do like the fact that they are made friends in Downpour) and maybe we see Suns looking somber when inserting the message into Spearmaster’s chest to know yes they do feel *very* guilty but less in your face. And I love the art at the end of Rivulet, if they had more of that in Riv that would’ve been amazing. And cut the Moon broadcast at the end it totally ruins the art cutscene that comes after
It's not that I outright dislike the human aspect, it's just that I preferred the feeling of them being more alien/strange. It's different, which isn't necessarily bad, but I find it less interesting,
@@sorbetcafeFair enough. I feel like there could’ve been away to make them mechanical and “human” at the same time (like how you mentioned Pebbles shows respect for Hunter and a small bit of care for Moon by helping them “aid in their rescue mission” so he definitely does care in base game it’s just not nearly as obvious as they make it in Downpour)
I paused and went frame by frame to read the iterator discord channels that shit was hilarious to read. I need more private dms between NSH and SRS. Good video
This is a nice perspective to get as someone who bought rain world like three or four years before downpour came out, never played it, and then got super into rain world after watching a bunch of let's plays on RUclips
Honestly, I didnt really consider it before, but now that you mention it a lot of Downpour could be improved. I don't exactly relate to the whole 'rain world was better before' thing considering that not only did I join after downpour released, I was also spoiled on the entire thing before I even played, but I get where you're coming from. The DLC feels so different, and honestly would've been better off just being a mod. (Actually, it was going to be a mod before the devs picked it up and made it canon) I don't think the Downpour slugcats are all that OP, but I understand the feeling. Looking at the downpour slugcats vs the base game slugcats side by side just feels odd, like putting a real-world cat and someone's warrior cats Deviant art OC next to each other and trying to argue they come from the same universe. When I was playing Downpour it felt very non-rain world, like a mod instead of an actual piece of the game. (Which, as I stated before, it technically is) Where Downpour failed most for me though is with the hidden slugcat, Inv or whatever people are calling that creature now. It could've been a genuinely cool thing, a new piece of lore hidden away through a puzzle. They could've easily made Nightcat, the abandoned arena slugcat, into the secret campaign and deliver something the fans would love without having to waste 3 YEARS or however long it took on a shitty dating sim with only 5 endings and zero actual substance.
Love the essay! Personally I've always disliked how Downpour became a story about iterators, when my favorite part of the original game was always about the slugcats and the ecosystem they exist in (it's telling that FP was my least favorite region in the og game due to the lack of interesting flora and fauna and ecosystem-like elements I fell in love with) I do appreciate how much replayability Downpour added, but I absolutely agree that Expeditions are the most interesting form of that. The new slugcats are too OP to rlly enjoy just living amongst the ecosystem. Not to mention how most of the campaigns are just fetch quests for... you guessed it, iterators! (Someone make a dialogue skip mod, please...) It's a totally different experience trying to live it out in a region with one of the downpour scugs compared to trying to live it out with Survivor, Monk, and Hunter. And god yeah glad somebody said it. Downpour dialogue is agonizingly cringeworthy, you can tell amazing coders made up the DP team but not great writers... like what is that dialogue when spearmaster comes into pebbles' chamber the first time with MoC. "Hmm SRS sent me a pearl okay I guess I'll read it aloud bc why not?' The blatant fanservice is physically painful sometimes
You are the only person I have ever seen to complain about stability in Downpour. I play on a disgusting potato laptop, i3 with fucking integrated graphics. I have finished the entire game, every campaign, every pearl, every broadcast, every bullshit challenge, I have 200+ hours. I am being %100 honest when I say this: I haven't experienced A SINGLE crash or major lag issue throughout it all. Is this really an important widespread problem like you make it out to be?
I also experience crashes, and quite regularly. Compared to the 1.5 era, when the game never really crashed for me, the stability of 1.9 has not been great. But I never experienced lagging. I also see many experiencing crashing, and they also crash regularly. I find it a surprise to see someone who never had the game crash on 1.9.
rubicon was one of my least favorite regions, and one of the biggest reasons was the fact that guardians and miros vultures on the same screen would cause my game to drop from 60 to like 20 fps. i have an i7 and 3070, so a lot of things were clearly not very well optimized, beyond the more common crashes from my experience.
@@soloraceschannelvery interesting. It's been around a year since I last played the game, so maybe a bad patch came out that messed things up some time? Never had the game before Downpour so I can't say anything about stability for earlier versions.
![[DOKKAN BATTLE] Worldwide Campaign Announcement Video Part 2!](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/JpT5Voak6WA/mqdefault.jpg)
For me it's kind of a "Holy crap, two cakes!" situation. I absolutely love the og game, but I also was able to see the dlc as it's own thing, a passion project by tons of modders as a love letter to the game. It had it's flaws, like with the dialogue and story (maybe a bit too fan-fictiony at times lol) but it honestly was just a ton of fun and it even made me see the og game in a better way.
I think a big part of the problem, which I only learned after making this video, is that downpour is marketed as an improvement on the first cake and not a separate cake.
I remember people getting very passionate about arguing that Downpour was NOT a collection of mods made official, and the fact that it’s an alternate universe with a separate canon was not made clear at all never sat well with me. If the latter fact was well communicated, I would’ve taken the story and character changes more kindly.
@@sorbetcafe this reminds me of a friend saying that downpour probably should have stayed in the oven for a little bit more which i agree, i feel like it could have been part of the main cannon is the downpour devs were told the game lore before launch so they could made it fit in it, and made spearmaster and riv campaign second part more the just a fetch quest, spearmaster especially since the second part of his campaign is kinda annoying with only being able to use one hand and not being able to use one of spearmaster ability to hold two spears
Also the thing about Gourmand is that his story isn’t actually real. If you give moon a firebug egg, she makes it clear that you are just playing as the legend of a slugcat passed down and exaggerated with time. It’s weak, but explains away the unrealistic elements of the campaign.
Yeah I can appreciate what they were going with with gourmand being a story told to slugcats upon returning, but the official stance from the dev commentary being “yeah none of this is real” doesn’t feel great. Feels like a cop out to avoid making the abilities fit with the world.
@@sorbetcafeI don’t think that it’s not real. I think it’s just gourmand who is exaggerating his stories.
@@tarot3078 the stories are definitely real but i believe that gourmand isn't that is exaggerating them, it's actually the slugcats that are exaggerating them as what we can see is that gourmand is wise he would never lie to his people, the reason why they exaggerate it is probably because... well, yeah the world is pretty harsh and it rains basically all the time, so for gourmand to return and magically have no scars they think is that he is pretty much G O D, so it would be reasonable to think he is pretty strong
@@tarot3078 plague knight be like
All of your stances are valid, but not something I personally agree with. I think the iterators always had some sort of human elements, from NSH sending Hunter to revive moon and including a joke in his pearl to Moon talking to an animal she can't even be sure can understand her despite it having the mark of communication (I mean, how can they know Slug cats are intelligent enough to comprehend what they're being told). Pebbles in particular felt the most machine in the base game, but he's also the most conscious of his image. In the beginning of the timeline with Spear his more human-like dialogue can be explained from his emotional state. Arti he finds something relatable in her, her anger. He feels a very similar anger to her, having been abandoned by his creators and searching for a way out only to fail. He cannot indulge in his anger, bound in his can, but she can. He encourages her to do what he can't, get revenge. Gourmand, well I have to agree with you on gourmand. His story didn't really need the iterators. Rivulet he's grown past his own ego, so he no longer displays himself as so unknowable. The iterators are much more human than they first appear, and perhaps that's intentional.
Their creators never saw them as more than just a tool, although they recognized their intelligence. As per this image, they acted like machines for their creators. With each other, they're able to be much less mechanical. Iterators have always been less mechanical in their talks with each other. I mean, NSH was very human in his pearl to moon in hunter. I get that goes against the original portrayal from when you first play the game, but even in the base game there's still hints at their human-like personalities in the pearls.
Spearmaster was raised by an iterator, so it makes sense that he would see them as fairly "human" for lack of a better word. One could say that him understanding they broadcasts is weird since he doesn't have the mark yet, which is completely fair. Although, it could be explained through him reading rather than hearing. In a broadcast Suns says they never gave Spear the mark of communication because they communicated just fine without it, so maybe he was taught to read, maybe? Not the best explanation I know. I do still feel like Spearmaster seeing the Iterators as less of "god-like beings" compared to Survior or Monk makes sense.
I feel like the perspective of each Slugcat is largely still immersive, as each has a very different perspective than the three base game Slugcats. Although this is all because I quite like the characterization given to the iterators in downpour, so I'm a little biased. I can completely understand how the difference can feel out of place and contrary to the original game, but perhaps it's less of "the base game iterators weren't nearly that human" and more of "downpour expanded our knowledge of the iterators to show that they aren't as mechanical as we first thought".
Anyways I definitely agree with you on the art department. While I thought Arti's dreams were cool, I feel like art similar to the original game would have portrayed her devastation better. The end cutscene art does a good job at this, but the dreams could have benefitted from it as well. Overall I think more cutscenes akin to the original game would have been nice.
You put my thoughts into words. Thanks!
Moon's dialog tones definitely changed upon downpour. meeting rivulet, and forgive me for the slang, she is a yapper. monk, who is the closest to rivulet timeline wise, is greeted with: "your shape is familiar to me. [...] He's sick, you know. Being corrupted from the inside by his own experiments. Maybe they all are by now, who knows. We weren't designed to transcend and it drives us mad. Hm... Such a familiar feeling." very iterator of her. In rivulet's campaign, she has two neurons that you can assume were brought by monk, and she says.. "
What a strange specimen you are! My memory does not serve me well, but it has been a long time since I've encountered one of your species. And none quite with adaptions such as your own. It appears you can breathe underwater. Amazing!" This really does sound like bad wattpad fic tryharding. Rivulet is far, far into the timeline. Moon forgot an astounding amount in the short time frame between survivor and monk. How good do you thing neurons are, storage wise?
@noctiluca1370 That's true, her dialog tone is definitely different. I dont really dislike the second but I will say downpour did fail at keeping her dialog consistent especially in instances where it can't really be explained by time. I could try to explain away the difference, but it would just be me trying to explain away genuine flaws in downpour. I'm not going to deny that downpour has flaws just because I quite liked downpour, I'll just disagree that it's a detrimental as portrayed in the video. It's really just down to personal preference. Plus, I find it fun trying to think of explanations for these things even if there is no good one.
My attempt at trying to explain the dialog shift is just perhaps her neurons become better at holding data over time? After hunter those neurons wouldn't usually be used for holding so much data, it'd normally be divided across thousands. She may have adapted in the time between monk and rivulet to be able to store more data with fewer neurons. A shit explanation I know and it barely makes sense but, ya know, maybe?? Anyways forgive me for, excuse the slang, being a yapper. Hope you have a good day!
spearmaster was taught the ancient equivalent of sign language
"I borrowed a coded language authored in the late period of the Yellow hegemonic dynasty. It used gestures and facial expressions as a silent method of communication with the seriously ill."
the reasoning was to allow for 2 way communication as well as not drawing attention from other iterators
so yeah i dont think theres any actual explanation for why spearmaster can understand the broadcasts
please note: five pebbles may get more annoyed with the slugcats later on the timelline due to the amount of previous slugcats.
for example, fp says he ignores his overseers but says he pays attention to his overseers because artificer is earlier on the timeline than hunter.
and he gets more annoyed with survivor than with hunter due to hunter being way, way before survivor.
Your point doesnt make sense
@@Mroziukz wouldn’t you get annoyed if the same guy showed up at your door 8 times
@@Mroziukz
Spoiler Warning:
FP Gourmand Dialogue (after hunter):
In return I ask that you encourage your community, through whatever method of communication you choose to employ, to also go west. Off into the wastes below, far away from me and my work.
FP Monk Dialogue (after survivor and gourmand):
I am growing increasingly impatient with the traffic of your kind through me and my premises.
In defense to downpour, I need to remind that the base game took a huge amount of years to develop by a few people. Downpour was developed while rain world was still unknown again by few people with less time. I think downpour succeed to make the game more popular and let people enjoy the base game which is the masterpiece. Without the dlc I think I would have never played the game or be satisfied with only 2 campaigns.
Well, 5P's changing attitude seems pretty normal if you count that the storyline is stretched across thousands of years and they WERE basically a teenager at the start.
thank you
thank you
thank you
thank you
We technically don’t know how long it’s been, since cycles don’t have concrete canon lengths, but it HAS clearly been a long time
I think the Iterators being more humanized makes tons of sense lore wise tbh. They were gods that literally had no agency, to the point where most even gave up the purpose they were built for. Them talking like discords mods is what they quite literally are. Powerful beings beyond purpose and very bored.
I think the biggest tell that Downpour is a fan project first and foremost is how centralized it is around the iterators, who - frankly - did not really need additional stories, but so much fanon was about them because they're the only real "characters" in the game, so...
...also, while I understand the critiques around FP's dialogue, based on comms pearls in the basegame, a lot of the other iterators were already written a lot more human than him - in fact, FP and - what I think escaped the Downpour devs - Moon, have the most stilted and uncanny dialogue, even when talking to other iterators. Moon's actually a lot meaner than downpour wanted to write her, lol. I do think the whole vibe of "iterator to iterator comms as discord chats" was intentional, though I totally agree that the billion and a half spearmaster broadcasts were overkill.
But I think downpour shines brightest when it's focusing less on the iterators and more on the slugcats themselves and, especially, the world - hence Saint's campaign generally being the one held in highest regard compared to the others.
Also yeah hunter is still the most fun slugcat you are 100% right there.
I think Iterators would have been more interesting if they wrote them to have more flaws/act in a way that reflects an inherently different view of life. Such as spearmaster being a tool to be used, not a beloved pet that SRS loves. That was what I was getting at with the humanization/loss of their alien nature of being.
Five Pebbles was the example I chose because he's the only iterator we have large amounts of pre- and post-downpour dialogue for, so comparing the changes felt most appropriate there.
hunter IS the best campaign, hell yeah
“These slugcats are, if you’ll excuse me, godlike in comparison” i giggled . yeah literally
I do appreciate Downpour making the game feel more… mainstream, if that’s the right word. Yes it doesn’t deliver nearly the same kind of experience as the base game, but it also makes it more accessible for much larger of an audience. And though not as frequent, I did have the occasional moment of something 'clicking' without the game having to explicitly state it. For example, after I first ascended Five Pebbles, I died before I could hibernate and save. I was slightly frustrated and went over to do it again, only to find him completely limp. I was confused for a moment before I realized, "Oh, I ASCENDED him. He's GONE." It was a cool, chilling little moment for me.
I also enjoy the larger story, though you did bring up a good point with Five Pebbles actually being ultimately useless to some of the campaigns he was essential in. Spearmaster and Rivulet are cool in the way that they're basically lap cats for godlike beings and do actually play a larger part in the story, but neither Artificer nor Gourmand needed that. They're the center focus of their own stories, not that of the larger narrative, and that probably could have been committed to better.
I do have to say though that I absolutely loved that Monk and Survivor were given a new ending with the DLC. And gosh, did it get me. The survivor staring blankly at the empty tree where it once lived a simple yet enjoyable life with its parents, where it had assumedly not yet felt the cruelty the world was capable of dealing. All of that security was ripped away in an instant, and the little creature, then all alone, was forced to provide comfort, shelter and food for itself, with every moment of perceived safety capable of being shattered in an instant. There was no more illusion of safety, no more companions to protect it. Even the lizards that can be tamed can only provide so much companionship, that of which doesn't measure up to what it had before. When the survivor does find more of its own kind, (as Monk's cutscene implies it canonically does, at least in this ending), they're just tiny pups. It has companionship now, but IT is now the guardian. IT is now the provider, the one responsible for providing safety and security, for keeping a creature alive, just for it to have the luxury of being carefree. Those same pups are still carefree once they return home; to them, this is a new place to explore. To the survivor, its a husk of a memory, every second spent there a cruel reminder that what he once had, what he had fought so hard to return to, was gone.
But then Monk, a character who I find to actually be quite admirable but cursed with an extremely boring campaign, returns as well. He too had faced nearly identical hardships, not out of a tragic accident like his brother, but out of selfless compassion. All along his journey, Survivor truly did have someone looking out for him like he had with his whole family. It was not truly lost. They may be the only ones remaining, but they remain together. Monk got what he wanted by reuniting with his brother. Survivor, although not reuniting with his old family, did still get his desire. He had *A* family. The comfort and familiarity of the past in his brother, and his two new pups, who just like him, had been separated from their original families. All of them lost, and then found in each other. None of which requires interfering with the passing of random gods to achieve. I love it.
Completely agree, couldn't have said it better.
I think for this reason it's very important to have people play Rain World as a basic game, and ideally all the base slugcats before even touching downpour. The tonal dissonance is crazy. I personally really enjoy Downpour but I very much understand the dissonance.
@@snezor2783 while I understand saying that they should do all the base slugcats first, honestly doing hunter before any of the dlc slugcats is incredibly rough. I know there’s more impact to doing the hunter campaign earlier but the game knowledge needed to pull off a hunter run is honestly not worth grinding over just playing some of the other dlc scugs and coming back for hunter later.
Ugh. Such a liberating video to watch. You convey things I've been saying for over a year in 37 minutes. Brilliant work!!!!
Great video, very glad the tonal shift is being talked about. Been passionately modding the game for almost 3 years, and I can very much appreciate downpour as a mod. Hard to appreciate it as a DLC. This, however, is not at all the downpour devs' fault. What was originally a mod made with love and passion was rushed by the publisher's deadlines into a janky DLC that is easy to be read as canon, despite the devs stating it is an alternative universe. Mods having a tonal shift is 100% fine, it is, afterall, a mod and not an official extension. Downpour was not made with becoming a DLC in mind, and I do not blame the devs for taking up the opportunity to become a DLC. The state of the DLC is rooted in a series of unfortunate events rather than bad developer decisions. Much respect to the team, and I feel bad that they got their project a little gutted by the publishers. I can't say I have positive experience with downpour, but I respect and appreciate it regardless.
Downpour is canonically an AU? This is the first I’ve heard of this
@@sorbetcafeThat's the issue, not many people know this because it isn't really stated anywhere, devs just said it on some social media platforms / forums and that's it I think. It is not meant to be canon to the base game, but the marketing makes it read as such. This also lead to the tonal shift in the whole community, because most believe downpour is canon. Makes it hard for some people (including me) to interact with the new influx of community members that came with downpour, because they see the game completely differently
@@thedarkking6568Sure, if the expansion was to be designed around becoming an official DLC, I agree. They didn't know they're gonna get such an opportunity, and I don't blame them for taking it. Mods usually *are* just extra content. If someone didn't like the mod, they can just not play it and accept it as a mod. It's harder to see an official DLC as an alternative universe. I do agree the stories bring nothing new to the table and only explore either what we knew or answer the questions that were left intentionally ambiguous by the base game, and that's what I found beautiful about it. Barely anything was explained to the player, and that leaves you wondering and thinking, coming up with possible answers yourself, but never knowing if you're even close to the truth. Ambiguity is powerful, rain world took advantage of it, and downpour kinda shut that down
Thanks for commenting, at least they mentioned that it isnt canon. You are being very respectful in these comments, and i appreciate that... Downpour and how the new fanbase overshadows the old one, and their videos on youtube, fill me with such sadness... i would have worded things quite differently. :)
On steam, the watcher is called the fourth slugcat, i wonder if that means it will be like the vanilla cats, or that the marketing team is just very clever.
Tbh I really liked the dlc. I learned about the game not so long ago, shortly before the release of downpour, and perhaps due to my lack of maturity, I absorbed all the content with great pleasure and did not see any shortcomings. But after watching the video... I don’t completely agree with the statements, but it opened my eyes to many problems of the Dlc that I had completely ignored, although I still adore the game both before and after the downpour
Thanks for sharing your opinion
(Sorry if there are mistakes here, I don’t know English very well)
I like Downpour, and agreed with most of your points as well. It is tonally distinct from the base game, the new slugcats are very powerful and not really a part of the ecosystem in the same way the base game slugcats were, and _maybe_ some of Five Pebbles' dialogue could have been more consistent too.
I also never even noticed that they forgot to implement the lineage system into all of the new regions, that's probably the biggest problem mentioned in this video that I agree with.
That said I still would like to nit-pick for a while, particularly about the iterator dialogue. The human-like style of dialogue that you attribute to Downpour is present in much of Moon's base-game dialogue and in the Sky Islands pearls, and Moon, SRS, and one other unnamed iterator even use tildes. So really all Downpour does is follow what is already established in the base game, it didn't invent anything new. Five Pebbles' dialogue just seems to be an anomaly.
Furthermore I would argue that NSH in particular is actually _more_ complex in Downpour than he is in the base game, not less. He does crack many jokes as he does in the base game, but he also clearly shows a lot of care for Moon, even threatening Five Pebbles in one particular broadcast.
In my opinion, downpour made rainworld less... of an echosystem and more a normal game due to all the new tips and stuff
it turn people into killing machine
Me when the echoes form a system:
it really makes rain world less weird and more gamey. Charm of the vanilla is how unconventional it is in relation to your average video game design
Me when I yell something through an empty system:
why are you mad more people can ejoy it???
I'm glad you can still upkeep your tone of genuine criticism while trying to get across your points. I'll admit, I think you are too attached to the idea of a maximum difficulty experience upholding OG Rainworld's view of vague, hardly visible story points that put off a large number of people from the game; I don't agree with a large portion of the things you say, but what I can agree with fully is that you're aware of what purpose Downpour had in giving more to the community and breathing life into it. You're aware of the purpose it has served to the game, and you enjoyed it with your criticisms in hand.
Good takes.
Yeah, it's difficult going from the "best game I wouldn't recommend" to a game that I can have an easier time telling people to play because it's more approachable, but find less enjoyable due to those changes.
I know that the perspective I have isn't going to be universal, but I also know I'm not the only person with that perspective and it's something I very rarely see addressed.
@@sorbetcafe Kudos to you for sharing that perspective. As someone who has very little issue with Downpour and more with the base game, I find it legitimately refreshing and enjoyable to see these takes due to how uncommon or often stifled it is. Keep up the good work
I do understand your view, Downpour itself is very different in tone than the base game. It focused on the iterators and the overarching themes of Rainworld, while the base game focused a lot more on atmosphere. I think what is missing in Downpour is the feeling of isolation, and to a lesser extent, the fear of the unknown. We didn't have anyone to talk to. There's only a few pearls that depict any iterators besides Moon and Pebbles. Five Pebbles made himself appear above anything we were concerned with, and like you said, his speech came off as weird, alien, and artificial. Moon was really the only character that we could form a connection with, and first time players likely won't even see any of her dialogue. You have to actively go out of your way from the main goal to talk to Moon in the base game. Hunter is an exception as his story line is specifically designed around going to revive Moon. Even then, it's unlikely you would want to stay around as you don't have the time to go seek pearls to give to her. In Downpour, rather than having to search of this stuff yourself, it's a part of the core story line. Which is probably why they chose to humanize the iterators as they wanted us to connect with them. It's weird because they are the same characters largely, they just don't speak in the same way, like they've been translated differently. It does work, however, maybe something could've been done with Pebbles to make his transition into more casual speech make more sense. Maybe make it that he only talks in the way he does in Downpour only after he's been consumed by rot, and it could tie into his character arch.
I don't agree that Seven Red Suns and No Significant Harassment have been flanderized into just one character trait. Especially NSH as he shows a wide array of emotions there. He isn't joking all the time, there's one specific moment where he attempts to message Five Pebbles and he doesn't even act one bit of sarcastic. As for SRS, He has a bit of a character arc revolving around Spearmaster where he grows to see it as something more than a tool to message stuff. In Spearmaster. While yes, he isn't shown as wide of an array of emotions as NSH, but that's due to this major event being partially his fault. He's consumed by not only guilt, but also concern for both Moon, Pebbles, and his growing concern for Spearmaster. We also don't have him really effect any campaign outside of Spearmaster, unlike NSH where he's the driving force for Hunter going out to revive Moon. We don't really get to see how either of them act on an everyday basis between them and other iterators.
I don't fully agree with you on the slugcats being overpowered. Sure, you could say we are taking away an element of danger by giving us more ways to fight against the world. However these slugcat's campaigns are mostly balanced around this, to varying levels of success. Spearmaster has unlimited spears and can carry 2 spears at once sure, but they have to deal with by far the hardest version of the map. And for most of your play through, you have one hand dedicated to carrying a pearl, and sometimes you have both hands full as carrying a grapple worm makes multiple regions a whole lot easier. Artificer has explosives and can double jump, and yea there is literally no explaination for why she is this way. However you are constantly having to deal with scavengers, and it can very easily get overwhelming. For gourmand, he can craft stuff and is able to kill things with his weight at the cost of being pretty slow and needing to rest often. It actually makes a lot of sense for him to be powerful as, in the universe of the game, is a figure of legend. He did exist, but his feats were greatly exaggerated by the slugcats. So of course he'd be able to do the stuff he does. Now should this be a valid excuse for making a character capable of such great power, that's up to you. I do feel like you did neglect to talk about the legendary nature of his character. For Rivulet, she's fast and can breathe underwater for a long time. Of course, there's the short cycles that you do have to deal with. And while yes, you don't have to deal with it in the rot, and after you take the rarefaction cell. I'd say that's balanced around the sheer size and amount of rot you have to deal with in the rot, and submerged superstructure being equaliy as massive and labyrinthine as the rot. I've played through Rivulet three times, and I still get lost in Submerged. And I have a pretty good sense of direction, I can get through any other region just fine. Submerged is just so maze like, it can even confused experienced players. Submerged is mostly underwater, and the region is designed perfectly for Rivulet. And finally Saint. I think Saint is actually the most balanced out of any of the downpour slugcats, even with god mode. For most of your run, you are completely defenseless, and have to rely on stuff that isnt meat. You have no way to kill anything in Saint before god mode. Once you do attain god mode, it is rather cumbersome to use. It takes a while to charge up and drains quickly. And there's a whole region designed around god mode. I do have mixed feelings towards god mode itself, and its implementation, but at the very least it doesn't make you overpowered. The point I'm making here is this: While yes, you aren't always nearly as vulnerable as you were in the base game. The world itself is balanced around your move set to make it still very challenging. You are never truly invulnerable in rainworld. Even with saint's god mode, you will be killed if you don't pay good attention to where you are. You are still very much in great danger, and you have to be as alert as you were in the base game.
As I said earlier, Downpour was more about expanding upon the world that was set up in Rainworld. It's goal was to not only make us have a deeper connection with the characters, but also to explain a lot of the mysteries hinted at in Rainworld. I do feel this has the unfortunate side effect of not allowing for much room for interpretation now. That aura of mystery just isn't there, and it does take out a certain characteristic that probably drew people into Rainworld. In wake of the announcement of the Watcher, I hope they find a way to expand the lore while also recapturing the uncertainty of the base game. It looks like it's gonna take place in largely the same setting, only serving to canonize fan regions. Hopefully we get to see some brand new regions though. At least it looks like they are striving to recapture that feeling of isolation given some of what we have heard about the Watcher. I feel in order for Rainworld to continue, it will need to at the very least start taking place somewhere other than the area surrounding Moon and Pebbles. Why not have a campaign about SRS, NSH, or even Sliver of Straw. Why not have a campaign that takes place during the time of the ancients. Then again, that would take away a lot of the mystery and room for interpretation so maybe not. But the point is, we can only keep going back to meet with Pebbles and Moon so many times. Their story has already been told, and there is not much else to cover. I can only hope in the future, we find ourselves somewhere entirely new. And hopefully striking a balance between the mystery of base game, but also expanding upon what we've been given so far.
I think it's less that the iterators are cold and emotionless and more that they are very wise and put thought into what they say and do. A good example is what five pebbles says when you meet him as the survivor. If it were a human speaking, you can easily imagine them having formed and rehearsed the lines in their head since long before your arrival, anticipating you. It's very proper and matter of fact, and its clear that he chooses what he says mindfully. Iterators aren't the kind to have emotional outbreaks or act on impulse, because for every action and decision they make there is so much time to have thought about it before.
Rain World is a masterpiece that I was able to discover with the DLC release through a very good friend of mine.
I've gotten so immersed, everything that happened to the slugcat happened to me too.
I've felt the fear of the unknown, the anxiety of cycles, the joys of making progress and the wonders of learning the world around me and becoming a part of it.
I blazed my way through Chimney Canopy and Sky Islands, yet I went back to see every room there was there just to experience it.
The game had completely changed me, I've learned a lot about myself, fears I subconsciously had, bad events that happened in the past and how it affects me in the present, how rain world is triggering trauma long forgotten. I can't bring myself to open the game again, the world is too terrifying, too unwelcoming, too alien. No other game and no other media evoked such strong emotions as Rain World did. Yet I still love the game, love every bit of it, to the point where I will likely be getting a tattoo of it in the near future.
Now, about the DLC.
I haven't experienced them by playing, but rather watching friends, youtubers and reading a wiki.
By far the two campaigns I enjoyed the most are Gourmand and Saint.
I mostly agree with your criticism of Gourmand campaign, but I don't think any of the problems listed actually affect the first playthrough of the campaign.
Dealing with limited stamina forces you to reach intentionally in every move, makes you choose what you want to do with the limited amount of breath you have before exhaustion.
The fact that a lot of foods are craftable isnt an issue to me either, as a player doesn't have a wiki open with the crafting table. It's a new dimension for experimentation, it encourages exploration and can lead to a lot of really cool events, even as early as 2 rooms in where my friend crafted a lantern and carried it through the entire citadel.
I don't think either of those are the best designed systems, imo Rain World is too unpredictable to limit player's stamina that much, a lot of situations just start feeling completely inescapable and the crafting sometimes gets really weird, spewing out an item that has no relation to either of the two combined items.
Saint's campaign is a masterpiece of art.
I won't be talking about it much, I think it's *the* campaign to experience for yourself, even if it's just watching and not playing.
Taking the common formula of "visit 5p and then go win", Saint completely subverts it, I think you can see how. The power of that one moment, that one room where you don't see what has always been there is irreplicable.
The whole campaign forces you to explore the world, the whole world, become attumed with it, become one with it.
Do you see the same as me?
Beauty continuing to bloom even in a place long forgotten.
I did not have the will to depart, nor the desire.
This moment, right here! It is where we are meant to be.
Shattered Glass, my favorite echo
@@soniaserval454 Really summarizes the whole experience, not only of the slugcat but the player too
I think the criticisms here are valid, but it doesnt change the fact that I enjoy downpour significantly more than the base game. I think the fact that downpour deviates from the tone of the original game is absolutely a good thing, like you said theres no exploring this world blind and discovering the iterators, echoes, ect for a second time. At the end of the day any work of art needs to evolve over time instead of rehashing the same beats over and over in a futile attempt to recreate the original.
I think taking time to explore the story of the iterators was a great direction for rain world's DLC, however i think after downpour its time to somewhat move on from the iterators. I'd like to see future DLCs or mods expand more on the games ecosystem and build up the world more outside of the ancients and iterators.
PS Your perspective on the downpour scugs being too overpowered is bcs you are a god gamer 😂
yeah i realized it might be moreso because I can use the slugcats to their full potential, which is MUCH higher than hunter. Artificer's parry, once you know how to use it, is disgusting and makes you nigh unkillable as long as you aren't overheating.
As far as enjoyment, I've gotten more playtime out of downpour, but personally the most enjoyable times I've had in the game have been as the 3 base game slugcats. I still have a fun time going back and replaying them, whereas the only times I've replayed the downpour campaigns were for this video and when I did them on a dancepad.
Very well made video and very cathartic for me.
I spent hundreds of hours in Rain World pre-Downpour. Speedrunning, doing challenges, lore scavenging and the like.
(Now forgive me for complaining but I will get around to some praise at the end)
Downpour's tonal and direction changes completely killed my passion for the game after I 100% it.
If there is one thing I would say that makes downpour detract in it's emotional power and original direction, besides some very exceptional moments... is that Downpour is way too arcade-y. It feels too much like I'm playing a game and not an incredible emotional and spiritual journey. I played Rain World originally with everything spoiled and yet every single part of the journey had me fully immersed and left me with chills reaching Five Pebbles and the entire depths sequence. It feels like slugcats are the center of this universe and everything revolves around them as their super powered abilities just shatter the naturalist feel of the original despite being in an almost entirely industrial world as we are causes, or a least directly present, for a lot of massive events that really don't matter to the slugcat but matters to the player (more immersion breaking). Saint was phenomenal until it turns out you are basically god, sent to bring about a new age. There could be some really cool exploration of "redeemer" type figures but it just feels like the cherry on top for everything being so op now.
The slugcats feel too intelligent at times, even if purposed organisms; beings that really just feel like they are the iterators' favorite pets. It makes no practical sense that they are the iterators chosen messengers now, when you could just send a vulture to deliver something (and Spearmaster's pearl is said to guide the slugcat so the argument of "vultures are too animalistic to work" doesn't make sense (same with saying slugcats *aren't* animalistic)). That heightened intelligence made the line "always the same blank expression" said by Five Pebbles to Rivulet, not work at all.
Ecosystem balance was very ??? for me with how much they just orange lizard spammed to make the game more difficult because the slugcats are so op. An egregious example is the Miros Vulture, it just feels so out of place and just added in to have some new great threat that isn't original at all (which is true with a lot of the new creatures).
Downpour could be so much better (or at least much more aligned with vanilla Rain World) if it was more focused on exploring new lands and not stuck with Iterator high school angst fanfiction with super powered slugcat pets. A very meme-y way of saying it but I believe it to be true.
There is some really good parts
Outer Expanse is great, even if the rooms feel very weird (but I can just believe it's terraforming from Ancients/Rain issues)
Saint is so well done, especially undergrowth. It's just becoming god that's such an issue to me and I would like to see a *few* less creatures in the world/cold but that's a small thing
The actual gameplay of the new slugcats are fun, even at the price they bring in terms of lore and world building issues.
Rain World is more talked about, but I just wish the original greatness was highlighted more than "omg cute slugcat" and "iterators ahhhhhhhhhh"
Ugh, why does every positive have a caveat, it's so hard to like this dlc
Tangent over, probably makes no sense or sounds like elitist og player gatekeeping but yeah.
I don't hate the devs or anything, it's understandable when you have modded content being made into official DLC. It's great as a mod but as official content? It's rough. Especially when everyone takes it canon when it's officially not. The shift in the community since Downpour is noticeable and makes it hard to interact with for me when so many new people see the game in a completely different way than I do.
Something that I think really distinguishes the base and downpour slugcats that wasn't brought up in this video is that the downpour slugcats are still very or at least fairly effective using just their body with no items:
- Gourmand without items can either cough up random items or use their body as a weapon
- Artificer without items can still blast at high speeds and sort of use their body as a weapon through concussive blasts and mauling
- Rivulet without items can still go high speeds, being able to ignore the already non-threatening (except for the rain in the first half of the campaign) ecosystem
- Spearmaster without items can fairly quickly become Spearmaster with 2 spears (Again body as a weapon)
- Saint without items can still swing at high speeds, though this is the least extreme example because items do become more important in close-quarters where Saint's tongue isn't as useful
With Base slugcats, whether or not you had access to a spear, rock, cherrybomb, suidcada, etc. would have a large influence on how you went about dealing with a problem, but with Downpour slugcats, you always have an at least fairly strong option to use or fall back on no matter what your inventory or immediate surroundings are.
Also, thanks for this video! It really resonated with me, and many of the points made were good ways of wording thoughts that were either consciously or subconsciously in my mind.
In a sense, Saint's campaign somewhat loops back to the desolation of the base game. Man, the ending is a hell of a surprise.
I personally think the biggest problem with the Downpour DLC is not about the content itself, but with how the whole thing was handled.
More Slugcats is not really special in making the player character too powerful. A lot of old slugcat mods do that before Downpour released (for example Martyr who can one-shot almost everthing, Spookcat who is practically invincible, Wingcat who can literally fly). Humanized iterator is also not really rare in fanart.
The problem is it received an "official" title all the while Videocult not really changing that much of MSC, and Akupara being not too eager at making it clear that the DLC is really a modpack. So we end up with an official DLC, that doesn't capture base game's special charm, because why would a modpack that's made by mod authors who were having fun and making their own version of the world replicate the base game's atmosphere? MSC started as a project to see if you can mod slugcats! I don't really expect it to capture the base game. But now it's official, and we have new players who just want to have a fun game to play rushing in. Great for generating revenue because you gotta buy the base game AND DLC for the superpower slugcats, not so great for seeing what the base game was all about.
Very potent video! I agree with the broader points, but I wanted to add my 2 cents on the artificer endings anyways; I've always felt like the ascencion for artificer wasn't the correct path, the actions the scavengers take is clearly overblown for what is clearly a child and the scavengers ARE clearly intelligent, at least, intelligent enough to hopefully understand that children should not be literally KILLED for a misunderstanding such as this, choosing to forgive them has always felt wrong, and I choose violence every time I play her
@@thedarkking6568 Artificer's abilities also seems like the most "they are there just because they are cool" out of all the slugcats. The abilities of Gourmand and Saint are strange too, but I think the environment and story could somewhat excuse it in their cases.
I think the karma works well for Artificer's story though. The "intended path" of going after the chieftain shows Artificer becoming completely absorbed by the karma of rage and violence.
Artificer's children were murdered by a single toll tribe in Garbage Wastes, not the entire scavenger species. Do you really believe that they all *deserve to die* because of what one tribe did? Consider that the scavengers probably have children too, and even if Artificer only kills the adults, the children will surely die without their parents' protection. The ones outside Garbage Wastes might not even know why Artificer is attacking them, the Garbage Wastes scavs could have easily kept it a secret out of shame.
@@thedarkking6568 in the game when you lose a slugpup, if they die and you save, you do not get them back. Same thing for tamed lizards even back in the base game if I remember correctly? Could just be a gameplay thing, but since a big theme of the game is reincarnation and seemingly each death is meant to have actually happened in your run, maybe each creature just has its own separate cycle. Doesn’t Moon say something like “our cycles will meet again” to Saint? That may be why Artificer doesn’t see her young again, even if they aren’t fully dead. They just aren’t with her anymore.
I also think the overkill is kind of the point. The game doesn’t hide the fact that Artificer is the bad guy. Pebbles of all people is appalled with her way of life. The echo in Metropolis tells her to stop. The ending art of the campaign is done purely in red tones, most of them being dark. That isn’t how you portray a hero. She’s a grieving mother, yes, and her pain is not something to be taken lightly, but she takes it out on EVERYONE. She just keeps going and going. The path she took was a conscious decision. She chose vengeance. She chose to be a monster. And now there is no turning back because the entire scavenger population rightfully sees her as a threat to all of their lives, but she wouldn’t want to go back anyways. She’s morally horrible and I love her.
@@thedarkking6568respawns are not canon, outside of in their own timelines. Her children would have been reborn somehow but not in Arti’s timeline
Honestly for artificer I do think it's a case of both sides being at fault. The scavengers are clearly intelligent as is demonstrated by their graffiti, tolls, crafting etc. However they also do not necessarily have morals that are anywhere near similar to human morals due to the subjectivity of such a thing. They are shown to be very to the point with their loyalties and affections. If you help them you are friend, but if you disrespect their authority kill and steal you are enemy. In terms of justification imo artificer lost theirs when they went on a multi region rampage, bathing the land in scavenger blood. Arti's campaign ends up feeling like they are a tragic villain of sorts, since in response to a painful tragedy they end up taking revenge, and then go on to bring what they experienced hundredfold onto uninvolved innocents to satisfy their own undulating rage.
finally someone with a similar opinion about the tonal shift from the lost, dying, or scared slugcats to the absolutely broken downpour ones. Don't get me wrong, I love all of the new areas besides pipeyards, and I love the new stories. Some of the changes and additions to the map and world make the base slugcats feel more complete. The downpour cats are just so strong in comparison to hunter or survivor, and I dreamed up my own mod as a response to that. While brainstorming for new slugcat traits and abilities I went to Daszombes server to get more creative opinions, but what I really got was feedback that completely missed the point of the original game and the vision for my project, "Your character isn't unique enough, give it actually good abilities."
The Mutant is the lone survivor of a mutated and deformed litter, radiation poisoning kills the parents. Out of X mutant slugpups, one is chosen at random as the start of the campaign. Half blind but with super hearing abilities, or an extra, cumbersome, arm that can only hold small objects. These are the only two concepts that I have a complete vision for so far. I was originally only going to have debuffs that would force some new kind of situation or playstyle, but prompted by the feedback I thought up small buffs to make the characters feel slightly more fair.
This project actually is in development, but we are still 4 years away from finishing the regions, and we don't have anyone who is currently able to program new enemies or the unique implementations of some of the mutations. There's still a lot of play testing and things that I want to do to ensure the quality of the mod. This is absolutely a pipe dream, and one that I need to finish for my own sake.
Your analysis of the way the base game conveys narrative is extremely useful. I want my mod's narrative to be conveyed well, but I lack experience. The only thing I can do is discuss, analyze, and imitate what the base game does so well.
Very interesting video. With more niche communities I think people can be quite enthusiastic about the object of their love and blind to its flaws, plus feeding lovers of human character interaction and such (scugs as iterators' pets) is generally going to get people more hyped as opposed to critical. People really like the "iterators as god-teenagers on Discord" thing and it's a valid concept on its own, but tonally disparate from what others may have loved about (and from what one of the creators intended for) the base game. This reminds me of those few who loved the original No Man's Sky and found that the changes, almost universally praised, drove it away from what they had found good.
But forever, vanilla is canon to downpour and downpour is not canon to vanilla. A mod to change some of the game's writing could be interesting, though, although from the looks of it you'd want for some campaigns, like Rivulet's, to be entirely different?
Five Pebbles feeling remorse is a tough one-it's narratively satisfying, but perhaps not faithful to his character. I'll think about this.
Also thanks for not taking from real iterator RPs (don't know if it actually happens, presumably it does?), your point was still made interestingly without having to harp on some server randoms just passionate about a story.
I would call Downpour an AU-and AUs are valid. Downpour is a story of the tragedy of hubris, how if you do not consider others you may bring yourself down along with them, of god-machines obsessed with death and the ultimate humanity they found in the darkest of their moments. I think people find this more compelling than the base game's story, simply about being a creature in a lonely world where they are nothing more than a creature, where life is hard and unforgiving and part of a great cycle. The latter is rare and unique and I think we shall not see something like it for a long time, but I can understand why people love the former-I do too.
The main campaigns I would want to be tweaked are spearmaster, artificer, and gourmand.
Rivulet’s story itself isn’t bad at all, for better or worse the role of the slugcat is now what it is. The dialogue feels off, though, and the interesting quirk of short cycles shouldn’t be turned off once you get your most powerful tool. It’s also just hard to balance rivulet’s world with their mobility, the lack of a meaningful ecosystem is kind of unavoidable.
Something like spearmaster has bad dialogue and a story that feels meaningless, artificer I felt would be a more impactful journey without an iterator (I had the concept of the scav chieftain instead being a matriarch to echo artificer’s own story, with the final act being killing her children and becoming the tragedy that made artificer in the first place. A point for the player to truly reflect on their actions and decide whether the vengeance is actually worth it), and gourmand getting the mark just to be called fat never sat right with me, especially as a mandatory story event.
> Five Pebbles feeling remorse is a tough one
It’s not so much that he feels remorse, more so that the way he expresses it doesn’t feel true to his character. The point I was making there was more that Five Pebbles was rewritten to be a very different character in downpour, which isn’t necessarily bad, but he lost the unique traits that made the character more interesting.
Downpour isn’t only the story of hubris, it also shows how not wanting to hate is almost as worse as hating everything.
It’s implied Moon had the power to stop FP from stealing the groundwater supply, but she never seemed to wanted to hate him, even if for a bit. Her own kindness was taken advantage of, and she collapsed. She still retains her will to live, because she still has hope in what remains.
Five Pebbles desired an escape because he hated the world. And the world hated him back. (seeing as how moon’s broadcast came at the right time, the right place to make him fail)
His own animosity towards everything ruined his own world for him, and sparked the decision in the first place.
Then the consequences of his actions catch up to him, and he collapses.
Unrelated:
I’ve had the moon situation happen to an online friend. It’s good to be empathetic. It’s good to be kind, but please set boundaries.
I think a lot of these criticisms are very valid, particularly the bit about 5 pebbles talking less robotic. I never noticed it but I do think that is an issue. Also the lineage system, while I never cared about it personally, is a big issue to leave out of the new areas.
However I feel like some of your issues are things that were issues at least to some extent with the base game, particularly hunter, and it’s sort of weird to praise hunter so highly and then criticize downpour for the same things. You say that downpours focus on the slugcats fulfilling iterator storylines rather than the slugcats being the focus is a bad thing, but hunter was a purposed organism sent by NSH. The main goal of their campaign is definitively iterator related. Yes you can choose to ascend instead- so can all of the downpour scugs. And honestly both artificers and gourmands stories are significantly less iterator related than hunter’s.
Also you criticize the DLC campaign creatures for basically all just being variations of existing creatures. But again that’s exactly the same as what hunter did. Red lizards, red centipedes, cyan lizards, king vultures, spitter spiders are all just variations of existing enemies, no better nor worse than caramel lizards, mother spiders, aquapedes, or miros vultures. Also as an aside, I think your criticism of mother spiders being mostly passive is just really weird, I really like rain worlds variety of creature behaviors and it makes complete sense that spiders carrying their children wouldn’t want to engage in combat. And while I definitely think completely new creatures in downpour would’ve been cool, even survivor mostly used variations of existing creatures. Past the early game where everything is new, there’s very little completely unique creatures, because the late game mostly reuses enemies from earlier areas. For example, sky islands- reuses blue, white, and yellow lizards, squidcadas, egg bugs, etc, and adds centiwings as a new variation. That’s basically the same as what the DLC areas do, reusing enemies but with a different combination and variations. Since the dlc areas are more different I think completely unique creatures would’ve fit them better though, and still would’ve been cool. I’m just pointing out creature reuse is far from downpour exclusive, but only really gets brought up in the context of downpour.
After watching this video I realised why I stopped playing rainworld after a while. I was looking for the old gameplay form my first play through, But I was looking for something that was blurred and hidden. I think I just found the reason why I have played only really hunter gourmand and spear master after my first play through of downpour. They are the closest to the gameplay of my first play through. Hunter was just a part of original game, it’s very similar to survivors gameplay except with increased difficulty. Gourmand without the extreme abuse of crafting and stomach items is very fun to try and manoeuvre around creatures and obstacles with less then desirable movement is fun and succeeding is satisfying. Spearmaster, like you said is the least overturned of the new slugs making the stronger enemy spawns and new map layout difficult but amazing to figure out and master. I’m not going to say I dislike the other new slugs but I wish it was more of the game I wanted. I hope the next update can improve on this if they add a new campaign.
i still think saint was exactly what the original game was, from its ending, the final region, the somber atmosphere and dialog, saint sure has his tongue ability but it doesn't mean you are invincible and untouchable, plenty of creatures can still out-run saint and the fact that he cant throw spears significantly complicates the task of dealing with enemies in crammed spaces. The first and the main part of saint's campaign effectively involves having to go through every region collecting echoes and only after having done that, you receive the power to "tie loose ends", go to literal hell and finish where you've started.
The empty bridge is one of the strongest moments in the entire game and the ending perfectly encapsulates the whole idea of that world.
I agree with you up until you become ascended saint
@@sorbetcafe you have pretty much played through the entire thing by the time you get ur shotgun, u just need to put the final remnants of the old world to rest and go join them yourself in hell.
If i recall, all of the dialouge between Suns and NSH were written by a fan of rainworld, being let onto the team for downpour. I am not saying this in a negative way, i always think its great when fans get to help contribute to media they love.
And that's why it's called fanfiction
The mod-turned-dlc itself is written by fans and superficially revised by the devs to fit a mold it was never trying to fill in the first place. The end result is years of community AU fanfiction very hastily attempted to be bent into a vaguely base narrative-coherent shape to appease deadlines
Some gourmand stuff im surprised you didnt mention:
The inclusion of the containment wall at all being added to the lore, its such a big new element which shifts the original "you are lost in a vast unknown world" story to just "you are trapped here" not to mention the massive inconsistencies it creates which even the devs agreed to.
-Changes monk and survivor campaign to be way less meaningful until OE gate is presented as an arbitrary obstacle
-Changes the entiere way the clouds work for the sake of having "avobeskyview" because its pretty
-It doesnt rain in there so the survivor intro doesnt make sense anymore (they tried to justify it by adding rain exactly in the cameo room which is very dumb)
-Everything regarding "time and distance" between monk and survivor intros to gameplay was lost and impossible to explain now
Additionally i dont like the slugcat paintings AT ALL, they look so human, so perfect, so "i used my pro pen with my graphic tablet to do this" are these really meant to be cave paintings? where is the abstraction?
Compare slugcat draws with scavenger ones, scavs have that iconic blue and white gibberish drawings with a lot of symbolism and stripes, makes it unique and interesting to look at, meanwhile slugcats just went to an art school and sell their commisions on twitter.
Apparently, downpour is a completely separate canon/an alternate universe, which I learned about an hour ago. So, none of the lore in it is "canon" to the original game.
Which is... a decision, to say the least.
@@sorbetcafe yea its an AU because the devs knew it was so different from the original lore they wanted to do anything they could to differenciate themselves but akuparagames was like ""nah, mods? AU? that doesnt sell games, we will make this official DLC and never mention the word "mod" or "community content" in any marketing post regarding downpour""
Hm, if I had known it was an AU beforehand I probably would've been a lot more forgiving, but that lack of communication doesn't sit very well with me @@jevmenyt3422
@@sorbetcafe Just out of curiosity, where can you access the information that Downpour is an AU?
AndrewFM sent a message stating it as such on the rain world discord before downpour launched, that’s the only official statement I’ve seen on it.
I think one of the most obvious immersion breaking parts of downpour is literally hitting invisible walls or jumping out of bounds in rooms. This was definitely doable in the regular game but it’s way more frequent and obvious when playing as saint artificer and occasionally rivulet that it sometimes feels like these slug cats don’t even belong in the world they’re in.
The thing is with the iterators, they’re ai, with artificial emotions a d artificial thoughts. They were made to do a specific task but having normal conversations would be expected of something that will get bored. They talk to eachother because they want to, not only to solve the problem they were made to solve
I don't think the iterators way of speaking is caused by them being machines. It just reflects the culture of their creators, the ancients, who are extremely pompous and verbose in their Pearl messages. The iterators are actually less officious than ancients when they talk, although that's probably because the context of communication.
Instead of making iterator dialogue more stilted and computer-like like you suggest I'd rather it would be more reflective of ancients alien cultural quirks, like their naming conventions, hemaphroditism, contradictions between their ambition and wanting to escape the cycle, and so on.
TRUE! I think it’s a mix of both, more in that being a machine is bound to cause some disconnect between them and the culture of the ancients, but yessss yes absolutely.
Thank you so much for taking the time to make this. You have perfectly encapsulated so many of my misgivings with Downpour. Like you, I admire it immensely as a work of love and effort, but it's held back by what is simply a lack of understanding of game design that that the original Rain World demonstrated so well: 'Cool' is not as important as restraint. 'Powerful' is only rewarding if you are also sometimes weak. 'Fun' is not always the right choice for every moment, especially if you're trying to make people feel something, and create an experience than stays with someone.
What really breaks my heart is how CLOSE some of the aspects got, only to miss the mark. Like, Gourmand would have been a cool 'alt-slugcat' if he just had the increased spear power and stomping attack, in conjunction with his exhaustion mechanic and smaller jump. But to that we add meals..? Crafting...? Gah...
In some respects, Downpour's biggest weakness is the same as Elden Ring's: It could be improved so much simply by subtracting things from it. Less dialogue. Fewer directives. Smaller superpowers.
So many of Rain World's best moments were when there wasn't anything flashy going on: the long and tense swims in Shoreline, the careful outwitting of a lone lizard, the satisfaction of filling your belly after living on the brink of starvation for several cycles. Give me more space for Rain World to be Rain World.
Around the end of 2022, I sat down to do another playthrough of rain world after not playing for a while. Erased save data, new survivor campaign, let's go.
I didn't get out of outskirts before I got bored and quit.
The main flaw with rain world is also its main strength. The feeling of your first playthrough is carried SO hard by that sense of wonder and the unknown. It really works to their advantage.
The problem is, once you know everything that happens, without that sense of wonder, the game is. Kind of dull if I'm being honest. There's only so many self imposed rule sets and challenges you can do.
One thing I will give downpour is that it brought that initial feeling back. As flawed as it is, it really helped in briefly rekindling that curiosity. Now I'm in the same situation as I was before downpour, just burnt out and bored.
I hope so much that the rumours of more new content are true (but only if the devs HAVE actually learnt from the downpour mistakes) since mods really aren't the same.
Downpour isn't perfect by a long shot, but it managed to make the game feel a bit new for a while, so I still think it's a net win
Also not many people seem to know but downpour was almost entirely fanmade. It was originally meant to be a mod, and only became official towards the end of the development process
on one hand, i would absolutely love another slug which felt like the base game with new wonders. But on the other, i feel as though the entire story of rainworld has been masterfully wrapped up and it would be kind of strange to keep it going.
I think downpour did a great job in illustrating the past, present and future of its world, some regions are different from another depend on the timeline.
And also, downpour had the best campaign I’ve ever played: Saint :D
FINALLY someone talking about this
I think downpour is cool as a mod, but not so much as a part of Rain World
Yeah, it’s something I’ve realized over the past couple months, but I expect a lot of people to misunderstand what I’m saying out of blind love for it
@@sorbetcafeYeah :( It's not like you're saying you hate it either, just that it just doesn't really fit as a DLC for the og
this is a really great video that sums up a lot of what was bothering me about the DLC. i especially appreciate the dissection regarding the iterators' dialogue, as it wasn't really something i could put into words or analyze in more than just a general feeling. it's not necessarily the base ideas that were the issue, or that they're emotional at all or even that their fates change, but rather the way they express their personalities and emotions are extremely exaggerated, lacking the detachment and apathy they had in the base game (which obviously comes as a result of endless futile cycles). it just could've used better execution. additionally, there were things that i personally did miss (esp. the lack of lineages in DP regions).
i think one of my biggest gripes i didn't see in the vid was the shift away from ascension's moral-greyness/uncaring nature into more of a black-and-white bad concept. the undergrowth echo implying that ascension was forced onto all ancients, the alternate endings for arty, monk, and surv (i think they were good ideas, but for arty it's very unclear what happened to them, it didn't seem like they ascended or became an echo, and for the latter 2, its a pretty nice reunion but they don't take into account which ending you got with surv which was a shame and it seems a lot of people just treat them as the superior ending), etc.. the direction wasn't really the problem, but the way it was done, it doesn't really fit well with the OG narrative/lore/themes or the gameplay loop imo, especially with saint whose motivations feel so opaque.
i hope the watcher is an improvement overall in terms of a more cohesive expansion esp. since the original videocult team are going to be far more involved. it's great the game received its flowers thru DP but i think as an artistic experience it's not really close to the same level as the base game.
This is a great video, and I agree with pretty much everything in it! I share your stances and Jimmy McGee’s about the fundamental disconnect between what made the original game such a magical experience and what downpour was. I think he put it best when he said downpour was “about as good as it could have been”, knowing that deviations would happen, but still enjoying it for what it is. It makes me a bit nervous about the upcoming updates to the base game, but I hope videocult hears these critiques and takes them to heart to make the expansion just as magical to new players as the original game.
Yeah, I mostly made this video because more updates are planned, and I'd like to see those updates not make some of the same decisions. I still get emotional reading through Hunter's dialogue, particularly Moon saying "I hope... this was meaningful for you. It was for me."
That, to me, is absolutely beautiful, as are her lines immediately after waking up, in a way that nothing in Downpour accomplishes. Downpour ruins a lot of impactful moments with things like the "And as your Big Sis, you know how protective I am of you!~" line.
I have no doubt that future updates will be fun. But I want to see more of Rain World, not more of Downpour. I fell in love with art, not a platformer.
@@sorbetcafe that last line is really what it’s all about
The OG game will always be a timeless masterpiece to me, hell I still go back and replay hunter campaign every once and a while. I consider downpour to be a fanmade mod but a heartfelt one at that with a ton of fun features.
Cool video! While playing through downpour I couldn't help but feel something was wrong, and I sympathise quite a lot with this video.
Imo, most of the new content added misses the themes of the base game, kinda dumbing rain world down to another platformer with some expansive lore. Before, I felt rain world didn't give you all the answers, and didn't appeal to fan service, leaving a lot of things up to the player to interpret, wheras downpour takes this away. For example, as cool as saint's campaign is, I don't particularly like the finality of it: the base game would've let you interpret what happens in the future, without you being there to see it, which i feel also ties into the theme it set up that the world will move on without you, and that as slugcat, you don't matter.
Same with the carefully crafted ecosystem, which was one of the main reasons i first picked this game up: downpour doesn't give much care to it, giving all the new slugcats overpowered abilities as if they're above everything else. Videocult put a lot of effort into making a believable environment that you were apart of, whereas downpour suffers from making the slugcats gods.
I appreciate the effort put into downpour from the devs: you can tell the whole team had a lot of love for rain world, and admittedly, I enjoyed a lot of the expansion for a while. But looking back in retrospect, it really steps over a lot of what made rain world truly special. I'm glad (even if they didn't made it obvious) that the team clarified downpour isn't canon to the base game, so I can carry on playing as survivor and hunter without a worry.
At the end of the day, it's my opinion tho and everyone has their personal preferences.
spearmaster is so much better experienced when you ignore the broadcasts entirely and are left in the dark as to the context of your journey until meeting moon, when experienced this way i feel as if spearmaster is probably the best downpour campaign, also looks to the moon is an awesome region maybe its just not for you
I feel this video
Sometimes i start a new survivor campaign and pretend i know nothing about the game, try to replicate my first time playing it and lay attention more to the background layers and music and sound effects
I also really regret that when i got lost inside the massive world after the yellow overseer stopped helping me (because of a certain food accident) i resorted to looking for direction guidance
Im also a bit sad that on my first play through i went to pebbles through chimney canopy instead of underhang. The entrance from the top sure was more grand but the one from underhand was more mysterious, terrifying, tragic and alive.
I remember my first playthrough and when I entered 5P from Underhang. When I saw that I was in zero-gravity I was so confused but then I remembered that I have been climbing for a while now so I just thought that I climbed to space. 😂
I very much enjoyed this thoughtful analysis and it brought up many points. However, with regards to Five Pebbles and Looks to the Moon: They are people. They might be very alien, but things are only ever alien until you learn more about them. I acknowledge a few inconsistencies, but overall, I don't see a problem with revealing more of the lore. I do admit that some of the lore is more obvious that it once was, but I like that it reveals things that were previously speculation. It answers some of the questions we had about it, and that allows us to understand more of the situation of the iterators in a way we never could before.
37:13 Thats what a scug sees when a lizard is catching up to them in a pipe
After reading a lot of the comments, I think people didn’t fully understand the lore of the base game before going into downpour. The iterators are exceptionally “human”. The way they communicated with each other was familiar and informal. I loved downpour and yes I loved the story too.
Pretty harsh at times but I agree. To be fair gourmands crafting of a singularity bomb is VERY hard to find and craft, you need two karma flowers to craft one bomb. I loved your restructure of artificer. I have never had much lag or crashes. Mods change that making it pretty unstable. Overall good video, and something that needed to be said.
You only need 1 karma flower, spicy egg + grenade = singularity bomb
@@sorbetcafe oh right, still though not the easiest out figure out.
Amazing video!
I agree with you on basicly all of these points. I never really realized how much was lost from the base game in the DLC. I did really like (most) of the new capeigns. It felt like a reward to be able to obliterate the predators that had beaten me down for so long. The ridiculous abilities of the new slugcats were just really, really fun to use. But the story, lore, and feeling of the game definitely diminished. I'd say that 80% of the stuff that i experienced in the new capeigns didn't give the same kind of incredible wonder and awe that Survivor's did.
In my opinion, the co-op mode was undoubtedly the best part. I've gotten two friends to purchase and experience the base game through the power of co-op shenanigans. To be honnest, I think playing the gsme with co-op is one of the best ways to experience the game. As long as you let your friends struggle through the game and learn the mechanics without too much interjection, it greatly enhances the experience. If my friends are getting frustrated with something, I can nudge them in the right direction. They're still geting the rainworld experiance, but I can be there to help or give a hint if its too much for them.
Good stuff!
The DLC music is awesome.
Co-op is awesome.
Hunter is awesome.
Rainworld is awesome.
you can skip the radar dialog lol, just hold jump (i think)
YES yes yes yes these are near exactly my thoughts. As my own addition to your points: I'm not very fond of is how.. extremely important every Downpour slugcat is. Spearmaster was the catalyst who inadvertently caused Pebbles to contract the Rot & collapse Moon. Artificer singlehandedly sets back the local scavenger population's civilization by an age. Rivulet is responsible for performing Iterator Heart Surgery. Everything about Saint. They're all Integral to the Overarching Iterator Plot in a way the base game slugcats never really were.
Sure, Hunter does revive Moon, but the impact of that action is fairly small; you're saving a single life from oblivion, and at the sacrifice of your own. Nothing much happens after that, besides Moon being awake to interact with Survivor and Monk. And those two slugcats can have *very* minimal impact on the world, passing through it almost like ghosts.
The DLC's storyline just feels dissonant with how slugcats are presented; as small, waywards creatures of no particular renown, treated the same as the rest of the wildlife by the iterators. I don't know about you, but to me Artificer is not normal wildlife.
i agree with most of what was said… but i feel like this all boils down to- “rain world was perfect for what it was- A+” “downpour fails to meet perfection- A-“
@@Gathsidespoison this is so accurate, downpour does unfortunately fail to meet the perfection that was og rain world and is very different in a lot of ways. But is still a phenomenal addition and one that I feel did alot for the game
@@First_love_late_spring Downpour is the reason I picked up the game- I heard about rainworld's ecosystem but seeing how weakly the suvivor moved through their environment, I decided to pass on the game. Until I saw spearmaster and was like "hell yeah, that looks enjoyable- navigating a world of deadly predators that I can turn the tables on if I am clever and sneaky enough? Perfect." Also the gourmand looked like a fun time too- "brains over armoured and mobile predators? nice" - I can appreciate the suvivor's campaign, but downpour and the story they added sold me on it enough I try to advertise it to others as something special.
I believe the biggest detriment to the original Rain World experience is the inclusion of the in-game tutorials as default in the remix menu. I don’t like the idea of new players not getting a chance to discover the movement tech on their own like a real slugcat would have to. It would have fundamentally changed my first experience of the game and I don’t know if I would have the 1.5k hours I have in it if they were included when I gave the game a shot for the first time…
From my understanding remix is disabled by default and the player needs to turn it on first, which is why I approached it more kindly, but yeah I honestly hate those loading tips and they feel like the antithesis of the base game’s design.
no offense but this is total bullshit. if i wasnt told about them, i would likely have gone through the ENTIRE game not knowing how to backflip, slide, roll, throw boost, downspear, starve, slide spear, etc... these are all wonderful mechanics and the argument of "you need to figure them out on your own" is completely insane to me. lets be honest here, 99% of rain world players are NEVER going to figure out that "move in one direction, change direction, jump, release all keys and only hold down, and then throw" is an actual intended series of inputs. praise base rain world all you want, but the horrible tutorialization is not an issue you can wave away with "its intended"
@@bionicleapple1254 Firstly, it is intended, the devs confirmed as much in an interview with Gamasutra where they expressed that they “wanted the experience to be free from direction and as textless as possible”. Secondly, I’m not saying it’s for everyone, but when you do start grasping the instinctive feel of how your slugcat moves, it’s an incredible experience. I’d recommend reading “Rain World: On Difficulty and Exulting in a Disabled Body” by Thomas Sullivan. It’s a great piece that sums up the triumphs of not conceding tutorials to new players.
I really like how this video talks about the problem with the ecosystem aspect not being played out enough, it made me genuinely sad that they just added some already existing species variations instead of giving the player a new land to explore
Fantastic video, by the way. I share a ton of opinions with you about this DLC and it explains the problems with Downpour really well. Its an imperfect DLC for a perfect game, but I still respect it for bringing an passion project to reality
idk, I feel like “sliver of slaw L” does a much better job of explaining the problems with downpour
I actualy dont think that the DLC is the pronlem, its more the fact that Rain World is one of those games that are meant to be truely experianced ones (like undertale, one shot, hollow knight, doki doki literature club ect.) they had to make the scugs overpowered because games like Rain World lose a part of their charm ones there is nothing new to learn aboute. So if they made the new scugs with the same mentality as hunter (adding a few minor changes) then the game would become staile as theres realy not mutch to do. They will literaly need to make Rain World 2 with compleatly new founa, locations and lore building on top of everything we already have, to please you with something similar to the original Rain World survivor experiance.
While I agree with some of the stuff you've said, I have a large disagreement on what you've said about the iterators. Especially the five pebbles section. Though it makes little sense for spearmaster to have any idea what's going on with the iterator comms, I still enjoy them and I think the iterator discord chats are mostly in character for everything I understood about the iterators pre-downpour. From what I've heard in relation to Five Pebbles, I believe I've seen a developer mention how pretty much all of the Five Pebbles dialogue in downpour was first sent to Joar, the original writer of Five Pebbles, and essentially given an A+.
A large issue of downpour for me is already stated in another comment, the unclear nature of the DLC, its story, and its separation from vanilla rain world, as well as some of the internal development issues I've heard about it. It annoys me to no end that I've seen, and continue to see, a large amount of confusion over Downpour being separate from Rain World, as well as the canon status of a certain challenge.
Another issue that feels a bit lesser is my incredible suspicion of akupara games, Buddy, and whatever was going on in the development of Downpour. I recall a time when the server was up in flames with developers claiming about a lack of communication from Akupara and the lead dev, as well as some issue about trading cards being awkward and containing creature spoilers such as Daddy Long Legs, back before or just after downpour released. I'm not sure what to make of it though as I'm not nearly as active in the RW discord anymore, and it all just seems to have been swept under the rug with Buddy going like "This is my reaction to all this: ._.". I've also seen a few others still complain about Akupara Games.
EDIT:I'd also agree somewhat on narrative diversity. While I loved downpour and its stories and gameplay, I do dislike how almost every campaign (except saint) ended up being "Go find Five Pebbles." I do dislike how his the entire movement of the story. He gives you the pearl to give to moon as Spearmaster, he fixes your drone and tells you to go kill scavengers as artificer, he opens the gate to outer expanse as gourmand, and he tells you to get the rarefaction cell as Rivulet. I do hope that in any future stories they rekindle the exploration from survivor and saint where the plot isn't just "Go find local iterator and do what they say."
My own thoughts (please note I started playing AFTER downpour released so my arguments are littered with bias):
-Downpour is just a bunch of fans making a story for the game, I wouldn’t think of it as definitively canon but most people (including me) tend to gravitate towards it because it adds more to the characters we love
-Iterator dialogue in communications broadcasts and data pearls are meant to be silly chats between them, I wouldn’t expect them to be as cold. I do have to agree that as computers they seem too alive, but as biologically engineered creatures it makes sense for them to have personalities.
-You seem to push the new slugcat abilities very far out of proportion. Spearmaster has infinite spears, but they can’t store anything, they are forced not to prepare and use battle instincts to survive. Artificer is not just an infinite bomb cat, she is hunted by a creature found almost everywhere and needs her combat and mobility skills to survive that. Gourmand is quite powerful, but struggles to use those abilities due to exhaustion. Rivulet is just more athletic than everyone else, they don’t seem too godlike when you realize they just go fast. Saint’s ending ability is quite overpowered, but before that they are relatively well-balanced in terms of enemy types, going up against ranged enemies like spitter spiders and flying enemies like centiwings. When you think about it these are just interesting gimmicks that are expanded upon. To add to that,
-The mystery of the original game was great, but without downpour replayability seems stale after you’ve explored it all. I feel like downpour wanted to create new mystery by opening new paths, for example the ancients, by giving us just a little bit more about them the community has gone wild, I believe there’s an hour long video talking about just the ancients and what their culture could have been like. I do wish they kept more for new players.
-I have to agree the “visit pebbles, go somewhere” formula is a LITTLE bland, but it is the same for the vanilla slugcats as well.
-Overall, I loved the downpour DLC. The new slugcats are more like new classes to me. I think the environmental storytelling is still great, Saint’s bridge moment the greatest I remember. I’m glad more artists are on the team, but I wish the character select screens’ art styles mirrored the originals better. I loved learning every new thing about the world and each campaign left me with questions I was eager to find the answer to. As a community-driven project it won’t be the same as the original, but they did a good job making their own sort of sequel to rain world. It seems the DLC had more focus on story than gameplay, but I think that’s okay because the gameplay is already great. 11/10 I have played again
Just finished the video. Fantastic retrospective; I’ve found myself feeling similarly after the initial rush of Downpour’s release wore off. You also put what was off about the dialogue into words- I couldn’t figure out why I was so off-put by it. And the lack of lineage in new areas is very telling. A big critique I personally had with downpour is that the new areas (submerged superstructure in particular) did not feel like ecosystems. They are levels designed to put obstacles in the way of the player- I couldnt see myself just stopping and watching the world in these new regions. What do the giant jellyfish interact with? Leviathans eat them sometimes, I suppose. Miros vultures only serve the purpose of killing slugcat. Yeeks eating gooeyducks and then gooeyducks being effective against wormgrass- *that* is what I would have liked to see more of. The ecosystem feels less interconnected and more like everything just hates you specifically, and that was a huge detriment to the DLC, to me. I once heard somebody say that, in expanding the world, downpour has, ironically, made it feel smaller. Good video.
What is exactly your issue with iterators being basically humans operating a giant supercomputer facility? That has always been the case.
In one of the Sky Islands pearls (pre-downpour, mind you) Suns reassures Pebbles about *every* iterator being frustrated with the search for the solution to the great problem. Moon tells that many go insane in their cans. I doubt a cold unfeeling machine would be able to experience something like that. Story-wise, iterators being human-like is *integral* to the chain of events that has happened. Pebbles getting frustrated with his predicament and isolating himself or Sig trying to aid his dear friend and creating a messenger. Iterators are individuals who can and do care about each other
Iterators have always been kind of silly with each other in the group chats, you either didn't really care about the pearl dialogues or straight up didn't mention them on purpose for whatever reason and your examples feel unnecessarily nitpicky at times, on top of calling them "fanficcy"
edit: typo; irrelevant point removed, i was wrong
What dialogue did I alter?
@@sorbetcafemy bad i was sure one of the 4 examples had different wording, that's on me
I hope the next DLC captures the feeling of the first game again!
I haven’t watched the video yet, and I’m about to, but I just want to give my input here, sorry if I bring up a point already mentioned or just a bad one in general. Im usually completely wrong, though.
I feel like with the base campaigns, whatever you did, wherever you went, it was YOUR story to be told.
You could just not revive moon if you wanted to in Hunter, or if you didn’t know. The campaign didn’t just stop at the iterators. In downpour though, there is a ‘canon’ path for some slugcats, and more emphasis is put into the iterators’ stories. Not really complaining, but I liked the idea of the slugcats’ fates being up to interpretation. :/
All of them end in breaking the cycle. In Monk or Survivor, it’s breaking the cycle of grief. Not sure for Hunter, but to get Karma 10 (in your first play through) you and your slugcat have to work together to break the cycle. It can be anything, to be fair, even an aspect of you as the player. And it’s extremely difficult and time-consuming to even accept change, let alone act on it. Acceptance is the first step to anything.
I feel Downpour doesn’t consider that with the new slugcats and their endings.
And about the iterators: Remember a character is only as smart as its writer. Keeping things unknown and mysterious allows you to fill in the gaps, and Five Pebbles feels overwhelming as his first impression, so that’s what you make of his character. Downpour subverts the mystery a bit, I guess.
Moon’s lore pearls also kept some things up to interpretation, and it’s a hidden mechanic (not scattered around the places players are more likely to visit and disguised as collectibles) so I suppose that’s why it doesn’t feel out of place.
it would have been so much better if downpour never existed and MSC, expedition and jolly coop remained as free content to download, people wouldnt be so harsh on MSC since it was always meant to be a mod so the perception thowards it as not official content would have made it more enjoyable, aditionally without akupara intervention the devs would have made a BETTER more slugcats expansion, since the publisher put so many restrictions to the team. Only downside would be that the game would remain more on the niche side (which i can see some ppl even prefeering), but yea.
Also coop being paid content now and the removal of the free mod is just scummy cashgrab from the publisher.
But hey, lets increase the main game prize by 5 bucks after doing all we could to paywall QoL changes
Looking back on this after the watcher DLC was announced, I agree with a lot of the criticisms. However I feel if they changed the dialogue and adjusted some of the storylines (And nerfed gourmand), it would be perfect. The power trip is real but that is unavoidable with this kind of content. Hopefully the Watcher campaign stays more faithful to the main game. Given that the old devs are back on the team, I have hope.
despite me absolutely loving downpour, i've gotta agree! although i would have never complained about these stuff because of how much i love the game and the dlc, i still acknowledge these differences only because to me personally, rain world and downpour are two completely different canons if that makes sense.
When downpour came out, i was ecstatic because I LOVED (and still do) the lore and everything to do with the iterators and the ancients. I was so happy to finally learn more, and to me, that's what downpour is. it isnt a "sequel" to the game itself, its a series of stories designed specifically to continue or explain the very little we had to work with in the base game's lore. When I played the DLC, i used cheats to get through most of them JUST so i can get to the iterators and find out the story, the gameplay was unique but it did not give me the same kind of feel as when i first played before downpour.
Whenever I theorize something, depending on what it is, i separate the base game canon from downpour's canon, favoring the base game when doing research because, as you said, downpour feels more like a fanfiction. I personally love that, dont get me wrong, but only as something for fun or headcanons. knowing that downpour was originally a mod made by fans of the game and the original devs had very little intervention in the production of the DLC only ever changing a few pieces of dialogue and mechanics, the difference is glaring.
Additionally, I 100% agree that they had so much potential with the dreams in downpour. I was SO disappointed when i realized most of the more slugcats didnt have dreams. artificer's dreams were satisfying enough for me but some impactful artwork would have DEFINITELY been better. I think what I wouldve loved from downpour is if they sort of continued the story of survivor and monk's family and possibly expanding on the world outside the iterator facilities and slugcat culture by having a campaign where you play as survivor and monk's third sibling. While I LOVE the continuation of the iterators' story, it doesnt do it the same way the base game slugcats do which makes me treat downpour as a completely different canon/universe. We needed more environmental storytelling where things are mainly told to us from the environment or pearls that arent always relevant to the main iterator story.
Even if I would have preferred that downpour had at least one campaign that was mostly about the slugcat exploring new environments instead of being a vessel to help tell a story that isnt about them while navigating through the same rooms we already know, I still love downpour for what it is to the death. downpour has its own charm. it may not be the exact same as the base game, but it does have its own qualities that make it very enjoyable even if a bit fan fictiony, which lets be frank, thats what the whole dlc is. A big ol' playable fan-fiction supported by the original devs :)
Well, it’s not just your headcanon, downpour and the base game are apparently completely different universes. This was just poorly communicated from the devs
Thank you very much…
meh, i dont think artificer is that unbalanced at all. she is literally just a death machine for everything else, but her campaign is pretty heavy in scavenger combat, which to be honest, already has people whining about the difficulty in metropolis, and if it was something like just regular survivor then it would be completely unfair. everything else in this video is super valid though. there's even dev commentary saying writing dialogue for FP was a real struggle.
broadcasts as spearmaster are implemented very weirdly yes, but i can't help but feel they were just there as an extra lore dump. like, you encounter like 2 if you're not actively hunting for them. I guess for that they could just add more pearls but i cant imagine the pain of having a region with 7+ colored pearls.
I'm shocked this video did not bring up rubicon.
I never really had strong thoughts on rubicon, it was just kinda there, never had much trouble with it and very rarely end up there since it’s not in expedition and I very rarely play Saint. It’s weird for lore and it feels very odd in terms of gameplay, but everything in Saint is a fever dream anyway.
@@sorbetcafe I think this is the issue; it's just kinda there. it was supposed to be really weird. its only like 50% weird.
I'd argue artificer is unbalanced, since the only thing to really check your power is scavenger spam, and everything else is just free food. The regions themselves are varying levels of suited to interesting scavenger combat, with some rooms like the garbage industrial transition rooms just being unfair. But metropolis is imo the worst for the scav spam since it is mostly just flat planes and plafforms on various elevations making the combat kind of boring and frustrating. Scavengers being a lesser spammed enemy in the roster would already be interesting while you brave through hunter spawns, atleast if artificer wasn't so busted with their abilities and crafts.
all fair, downpour was literally a collection of mods made by the community, so that's why they seem so disconnected
I dont really have the same feeling with the OP of slugcats. You still get one shot and the one time you have a double jump you have an entire tribal species praying on your downfall so its balanced. But for rivulet, yeah shes just fuckin op when you remove the energy cell. With gourmand he isnt really a real "Slugcat" and instead is a depection of what the slugcats thought of him (mostly why his entire campaign only opens a gate) Saint is frail and unable to eat meat and cant almost store food for the next cycle. He also has to deal with intenser spawns a cold climate that freezes you to death but because hes "Sorta" fast its balanced (Atleast in my eyes) As for the spearmaster dialoge, I dont mean to start an arguement but you kinda said them in a very VERY annoying voice in order to show how bad there dialouge is, now this isnt bad its just that you used it ALL THE TIME even in the nice dialouge that I liked! and yes they are massive organic supercomputers but that doesnt mean that they dont have personalites if you locked even albert einstin in a room for 500 years he would go insane! The supercomputers talk like this because they are ORGANIC and have a sense of humor mostly because the ancients wanted that. Main reason why he plays his pearl at the end of rivs campaign
I love downpour to death but, the killer to me is the loading tips, they are the worst thing added to this game. Also I feel that each slugcat should have a creature that is common in there caimpaign that completely counters its abilities and makes you more like survivor. Arti has cyans which are just as maneverable though I feel something with explosion resistance would be better. Saint has zooplizards which I think are absolutely perfect for it, besides their rarity. The rest of them however, have nothing to counteract there otherwise kinda broken abilities. Also I think riv should have always had short shelter cycles. And regions like drainage and lower industrial, shaded, and garbage waste should be more flooded.
And for the iterator Dialogue, I like it. To me at least, they seemed more human than the game lets on, they are very biological and clearly have personality. The whole point of five pebbles was him not wanting to be a bug, a cog in the machine which is what caused the chaos in the game. Of course, some of the dialogue could be reworked. Like what you mentioned, gourmand could have been, more rude like survivors and moon shouldn’t have as much of an immediate liking to riv and shouldn’t have told them how to get into submerged, that’s what pebbles overseer should have done moon should have told him to try and return it to where they got it and it should have been the player who choose to help her. Artis dialogue is fine imo five pebbles can relate to her a ton having an anger unable to be quenched due to his circumstances arti is like an outlet for his own struggles.
And for the general tone throughout the caimpaign makes sense if you think of them as more human than robot. He’s growing as a character, however his growth comes after it matters, if he had his mindset he does in riv in let’s say arti it would have completely changed his fate. And his distain for everything in spear and his general, teenage audited makes sense for one of the youngest iterator with everyone talking down on him. Some things definitely could have gone better like creature spawns and some of the dialogue. Though most of it isn’t that bad and it’s still an amazing update even if what I said was moot.
I don't like the fact that tips are activated by default when enabling Remix but you can turn them off
In all honesty pacing change was needed. Hunter campaign already provides "vanilla but harder" experience. Therefore making slugcats with unusual abilities is necessary for providing sth new and interesting, and not just another hunter.
Though i fully agree Slugcat abilities especially gourmand and artificer are absolutely overtuned. Gourmand abilities are just soo goofy, crafting system is weird and feels unreal. At least there is hint gourmand story is just that, an overexagerated story.
For artificer idk, it just doesnt feel right. We get terminator of a slugcat with 0 explanation for those insane combat abilities and campaign tries to balance that by drowning player in scavs making everything absolutely chaotic. (large scav groups function really badly from both immersion and their ai standpoint). Definitelly needed some more work here.
Great video! I never looked downpour through this viewpoint 🤔
I agree with you on some points, but I think you're too harsh on the dlc. Keep in mind you're anything but an average player btw ^v^
I think the dlc slugcats are well made. The difficulties vary, but I think every slug is hard or enjoyable in some way. The double jump of Artificer, unlimited spears of Spearmaster, and tongue of Saint are all very useful movement abilities that don't feel wrong to me in a world where there are lizards with telepathy and explosive propulsion systems that seem to have evolved somewhat naturally. Artificer, Gourmand, and Rivulet have abilities that open up new higher level play. My favorite campaign was Spearmaster, because of the story of the Itorators. I think the characterization of them all is certainly different, but not bad. They're more human, and I think that's good. It's as if after all the time you spent with them in the base game, you get to know them better. Seven Red Suns in particular is interesting. They speak in a foreign way to others. They're more empathetic, in a sense, but still a god that is isolated from socialization.
I agree with you about a lot though. Gourmand and Saint do feel like gods at a certain point. Gourmand is a folk hero who is a casual 4th wall break. Saint's ascension powers and whole plot are both unsatisfying and ungrounded. They both feel like utter jokes, and I did not enjoy them. I did however, cry a lot during Saint's campaign lol.
Rivulet's rain timer disappearing, and Artificer's cutscenes, were things I didn't love, but didn't hate. Now that you brought them up though, I do agree that they should've been different. I don't think the Artificer cutscenes were up to the downpour team though. It feels like they would've done art if the could. Maybe I'm just crazy though.
I wanted to point out that there are some big decisions you can make that the game doesn't tell you about, too. Ascending Pebbles or Moon was an option in Saint's campaign that never even occurred to me honestly. The confrontation between Artificer and the Scavenger Chieftain felt right to me in a similar way too.
Finally, I didn't know about the lineage system being completely unutilized! That honestly makes me really mad!
Thanks for voicing your opinion! I appreciate it as a fan of the channel ^v^
I didn’t really mean to come off as harsh on the DLC, but I wanted to be able to properly talk about the issues in it without having to sugar coat it. It often feels like there’s a near universal love of everything in downpour and there’s a stigma around criticizing it, which leads to the need to articulate criticisms very clearly and firmly rather than vague “I didn’t really like this,” statements.
Most of the video is formatted as “here is a change that was made, here is proof of that change, here is why I don’t like that change.”
@@sorbetcafe I completely agree with you when it comes to that stigma. I'm glad you made this video!
your criticisms of saint upset me greatly because they are easily the best DP 'campaign' due to its nature of being a love letter to the game itself rather than a 'story'. At least... to me.
My criticisms of Saint mostly revolved around saints actual mechanics and not the story/world. I didn’t mention Saint much in this video aside from that. Saint’s ascension in particular is REALLY jarring and tonally odd, it’s like playing with dev tools. Is that a necessary part of the love letter? Is saint’s campaign better for having it? Personally, I thought saint’s campaign was all downhill after hitting the last echo.
That doesn’t mean Saint is bad, or the campaign is bad. A criticism of something you love isn’t black and white. Finding flaws in a good thing doesn’t make it a bad thing. @@elshelalu2027
@@sorbetcafe - One thing I think a lot about (with sadness) is how much more moving and effective the Saint's ascension mechanic would be if it didn't include the 'fly' and 'sniper scope' elements. You know what would have been perfect? Have the Saint ascend things by grasping onto them. Rather than gunning down Looks to the Moon, you simply embrace her and send her into the next world. It does double duty by allowing the endgame to maintain any sort of challenge.
The saint criticism is dumb because,
Even if you have a strong ahh tongue, you still get destroyed until you get the ability.
But the path there is pain 😭
Like you need to travel the whole world for the echoes, and then when you get the ability, i still managed to die way too manyand times because the target for saints ability moves slowly and i had to predict where it would go to hit it properly but by then i would get insta killed by a miros vulture.
I think the downpour dlc made the slugcats strong, as well as the predators, because in artificier the scavs are sometimes impossible to get through, and pulling spears out of the walls wont help aswell as explosive spears because there will be too many scavs so you will just kill one in a cool way then just get sniped by an elite one.
And grenades. Well, those work, but i always forget to make one and always use spears because it's faster.
The rivulet is fast, but i wish hell upon who made the rot.
The gourmand is a fat mf who gets tired right when i need to fight.
And the new creatures that are made to counter these, are annoying.
So yeah.
No hate
here before the video leaves the target audience or inevitably blows up cuz it's very well made. :D
you've pretty much put my general thoughts in video even though there is some stuff i disagree with. i gen think the reason why rain world got so popular with the dlc was due to the main meaning/core message of the game being diluted/overshadowed by the fancontent of the DLC leading people to believe vanilla is "incomplete" and a canvas for "a bigger story"; i wanted to get the dlc because i could support the game, the devs and the modders; i just wish they made it more clear this was an AU and fancontent (not just because of the narrative shift issue but also because the og moders/devs that were brought in deserve literally everything in the world
Overall a very good and balanced critique. I agree with most of your smaller criticisms, though they don’t impact my enjoyment of the mod much. It was intended to be a mod with a separate canon from the base game, and - while I wish they would have made that intention clearer to the community - that clear separation allowed me to be perfectly content with the different goals of the DLC.
I must say that I do think your criticism of the story, and particularly the handling of the iterators, was dramatically overblown. Yes, the dialog of the DLC is generally of lower quality than that of the base game, which conveyed its themes far better and generally had superior prose; these are certainly valid critiques. However, you spent a lot of time talking about how the DLC made the iterators into people, when in the base game they were dehumanized supercomputers. This definitely misses the mark. In the base game, the pearl dialog is filled with very human interactions between iterators, some of which you even show on screen but gloss over. I would argue that the iterators were very much intended to have human personalities and dispositions. Pebbles, certainly, acted very high-and-mighty with the slugcats, as you might expect from an inhuman supercomputer, but this was representative of his tragic flaw, the arrogance that had him believe he could escape his fate and ultimately led to his decay and the death of Moon. The DLC didn’t retcon the iterators by giving them personalities, it merely expanded on the slivers of the personalities we were shown in the base game (though whether the directions they took each iterator's character, and the extent to which they developed them, were any good is another story entirely).
I would agree, however, that the base game absolutely makes the player _feel_ like they are dealing with an unfathomable alien god when they encounter and speak with Pebbles without diving deeper into the lore, and the DLC does not maintain this feeling in the slightest. Granted, I don't think it would have worked well with the very different goals the DLC had in mind, so that really comes back to whether you agree with those goals in the first place.
One thing I'm very surprised you didn't mention was the story change that was the most aggravating to me by far: the idea that Hunter's illness was the Rot, through the introduction of the Hunter Long Legs. This is aggravating to me for many reasons, all exacerbated by the fact that now everyone in the community writes or draws Hunter as having Rot, and I can't stand it.
Well, this comment ended up being quite long… sorry about that. Long story short, overall good video, though I do disagree somewhat with your interpretation of the base game.
This might be my brain which has rain world as a core piece of it as of now, but i love downpour so much, of course theres a few flaws, but, i just love it. I've only gotten into rain world in early 2023, thats a good thing about that year for me. Sorry for rambling, i have many thoughts.
this really changed my persepective wow
god I agree with this so much, especially regarding the tonal differences and gameplay, augh i truly cannot hold downpour to the same standards as basegame in my eyes without getting frustrated, you last point about all the good this game has brought it also very real, but man i have such mixed feelings about it becoming mainstream, i love this game so much but it makes me sad sometimes that the original message has been diluted in favor of becoming more mainstream, the original themes of the game hit me so so hard. i need to deal with my feelings honestly
I also didn't like the writing. It removed any mysteries the game had. Moon in the base game was already odd but only after you get the mark and bring her more stuff to read which is optional, almost secret. Karma and repeating cycles should have been the prime focus of the DLC but I assume the modders never read anything about buddhism
In general I agree with your video. The dialogue is definitely a bit iffy at points, there's a lot of "here's the full context, do exactly this" lines. Though I was mostly ok with Rivulet/SM's story being so iterator focused due to Hunter also being iterator focused. Iterators acting out like members of a Discord server is good but not great, as it is not beyond my own expectations of how hyper intelligent AI stuck in boxes for eternity would act like. For better and worse, Hunter normalized the idea that slugcats can have immense power when dealing with what are essentially gods, and I think all of the DLC campaigns took inspiration mostly from Hunter in terms of narrative.
The hardest and most intriguing campaign of them all is Survivor IMO, because it's when you know nothing. Monk and Hunter reusing the regions made sense, they represent easy and hard difficulties. But I think the major flaw of the DLC is that they added all 5 slugcats at once. In a more normal dev cycle, each slugcat would be added one after the other, giving time for each to be tailored with more attention and detail. But because their attention was divided, all of the slugcats reuse the same regions and creatures with very few differences (I'd argue that even the Saint's variants are too similar in most cases). It makes sense to me that they made the DLC slugcats OP, because otherwise the player would have to spend significantly more time retreading through the same base regions just to get to the interesting new regions.
Have you seen the mod for additional hunter endings? Lolight2 did a review recently of the endings and i feel the characterization of NSH is exactly what your looking for. would be interested in your thoughts.
that mod literally turns hunter into another downpour style campaign with a lot of flashbacks into yet another iterator... its the kind of thing this video is complaining about. Art is impressive tho, they are fairly close to Del northern's draws
@@jevmenyt3422 I take your point about the structure of the campaign. my question was about the characterization of the iterator. NSH seemed closer to a supper computer than downpours characterizations. However where the most mystery was the fandom was bound to explore so its unsurprising what we got. (Downpour originally being mods)
Dude I hate DP Iterator Dialogue so much, good video
Edit update: there is a tilde in non-Downpour dialogue by LTTM, when she recieves a second neuron
Downpour for me is more new players friendly imo because it makes the game feels like a game instead of a failure simulator
i adore both the base game and the dlc, but i think the base game is still better. It is specifically tuned to created an ecosystem, and wildly succeeds in doing so. Downpour is focused on being more of a game, not necessarily throwint away the ecosystem, but noting it down eitherway. they're both still incredible though and i have absolutely no regrets spending the 15 dollars each on them.
@@ranninotfromeldenring2832 each? Wdym I buy the base game for like 25 bucks.. This is why I think the downpour is so worth and fun compared to the base game that only gives you 3
8:40 because she is just that angry
as a long time rain world player, downpour and its affect on the community have only got worse for me as time has gone on. i was so eager to enjoy it, but it was completely kneecapped by akus greed and impatience, and ive lost all faith that theyll bring anything positive to the community
Loved the analysis. Couldn’t agree more. I did not even pick up on the tonal shift in 5P’s communication so this was quite eye-opening.
Also, I’ve 100%ed the game and its’ DLC and I still consider Hunter to be my favorite slug… so **fist bump**
I think expanding on the iterators is one of the most relevant choices for a continuation of the rain world story. I mean, they're realistically the most prominent characters in the world. The world is the way it is *because* of the iterators' existence. I think Rain World would be extremely boring with no central plot points like encounters with the iterators to tie the ecosystem and the narrative together.
Ur so fucking real for this btw
34:44 Challenges? Absolutely not. These were absolute worst part of entire game. I'm not kidding or exaggerating. These were the most rage inducing and miserable experience with very small exceptions. If anything it reveal so many flaws of game mechanics + controls and lack of play testing. Aimed for most sweatiest players out of there. A lot of them unfair, sadistic or near impossible.And some require wiki or internet search cuz how obscure solutions are
The DLC is like Avatar 2, it tells you everything at the beginning and the sense of surprise disappears. The correct way to do it was leaving more to the player interpretation, to leave the comminity make assumptions or theories about what is happening or why. One thing that rainworld did gorgeously was the ancients. The game only give you hints about them, but does not throws to your face everything about them. The game allowed the community to imagine how do they look, why did they use that architecture, what did they eat, what language did they speak, how did they build their iterators, like, how?
I would loved to have seen moon more different than five pebbles in the spearmaster campaign, showing it's deprecated and old technology, with redundant systems or even robots. That moon facility had the tools to repair machines and that the main difference between pebbles and moon would be the use of bio-engineering and robots, respectively.
The thing I liked less about rainworld was the dialog between iterators in spearmaster. I would prefered that those weren't in the game. And I hate that the developers leaved a lot of stuff in their discord than on the game, making the casual player unable to know that stuff, even making misinterpretations about the lore, for example, that the challenge 70 was not canon.
I liked more about the assumptions that I make on my own about why moon died, how did pebbles kill her, why did he made that such a horrible thing; and not that he was being an annoying emo teenager. Or how pebbles got the rot, something like doctor House applying an alternative way to reconstruct the tissue in his leg knowing the possible consequences and ended up with cancer tumors. I would liked that five pebbles were more like doctor House in behavior, that even fits with the organic supercomputer thing.
I don’t know if I can actually apply that changes to the game with a mod or something. It would be pretty cool if I can.
(Sorry for the broken english, I tried my best)
I haven’t watched the full vid yet cus work. BUT! I agree with everything so far except, i feel some of characters aren’t OP enough for the DRASTIC difficulty increase there put in. That being Hunter, Artificer, Spear Master.
I got no problem with the rest of the characters. But what i call the ‘combat focused’ campaigns are just too harsh for me. In a game of 1 shots, they throw like 3 times the enemies at you, that are all much stronger or more annoying to deal with. Giving near the only option “get gut” & beat the enemies.
Also i’ll say. Downpour added laggy or even game crashing situations in the game. That caused COUNTLESS deaths or ‘quits’ that aren’t really my own fault. Where as the base game ran smooth as butter for me. I in a way prefer base game. But i liked what they did with big boy, Riv, & saint. But i also agree. They coulda done things differently.
Halfway through the video and yeah, I mostly agree with your points, as much as I love Downpour. I really don’t like most of the broadcasts, however, there is some neat info in some of them that characterizes SRS and NSH, which I do like (even if it’s written poorly). Maybe they could have like had the broadcast thingy they do in game but when you try to see it it turns into a pearl that you need to bring to Moon? And like, only 5 or so are necessary, not the whole bunch we got. Of course, they would still differ heavily from base game, as we barely got any personality for any other iterators other than Moon and Pebbles, and even then it’s not nearly as in your face as it is in downpour, but I do like seeing the more “human” side of them. Also yes I hate how wall breaky they are which is why I think that would work better. And maybe Rivulet still does the rarefraction cell thing, but is could characterized as more of a nomadic slugcat who likes to go on little journeys instead of just the slugcat that “fixed the bond between two god like entities” or whatever Moon’s dialogue is written as (kind of like how Gourmand and Artificer are characterized?). Oh and maybe they’re slower on land actually but to compensate they’re faster underwater and there are even more floods in than there are in downpour. And the gravity cell can’t actually be used, it’s just like a giant pearl you have to carry (not actually a pearl but like it’s useless to you while moving through the land). And maybe to up the difficulty the floods DO become less frequent after you take the cell and it’s harder for you to navigate because you’re slower on land.
Edit 1: Ahhh I saw you dislike the human aspects of them, which I do like, even if I think a lot of the dialogue isn’t great
Edit 2: Oh yes, I think the cutscenes should have been art, and I think your Spearmaster Dream idea is better than my broadcast pearl idea. Maybe we could see Suns slowly getting more closer to Spearmaster, and maybe one dream where Spearmaster peers over and sees Suns talking to NSH (because I do like the fact that they are made friends in Downpour) and maybe we see Suns looking somber when inserting the message into Spearmaster’s chest to know yes they do feel *very* guilty but less in your face. And I love the art at the end of Rivulet, if they had more of that in Riv that would’ve been amazing. And cut the Moon broadcast at the end it totally ruins the art cutscene that comes after
It's not that I outright dislike the human aspect, it's just that I preferred the feeling of them being more alien/strange. It's different, which isn't necessarily bad, but I find it less interesting,
@@sorbetcafeFair enough. I feel like there could’ve been away to make them mechanical and “human” at the same time (like how you mentioned Pebbles shows respect for Hunter and a small bit of care for Moon by helping them “aid in their rescue mission” so he definitely does care in base game it’s just not nearly as obvious as they make it in Downpour)
I paused and went frame by frame to read the iterator discord channels that shit was hilarious to read. I need more private dms between NSH and SRS. Good video
This is a nice perspective to get as someone who bought rain world like three or four years before downpour came out, never played it, and then got super into rain world after watching a bunch of let's plays on RUclips
Honestly, I didnt really consider it before, but now that you mention it a lot of Downpour could be improved. I don't exactly relate to the whole 'rain world was better before' thing considering that not only did I join after downpour released, I was also spoiled on the entire thing before I even played, but I get where you're coming from. The DLC feels so different, and honestly would've been better off just being a mod. (Actually, it was going to be a mod before the devs picked it up and made it canon)
I don't think the Downpour slugcats are all that OP, but I understand the feeling. Looking at the downpour slugcats vs the base game slugcats side by side just feels odd, like putting a real-world cat and someone's warrior cats Deviant art OC next to each other and trying to argue they come from the same universe. When I was playing Downpour it felt very non-rain world, like a mod instead of an actual piece of the game. (Which, as I stated before, it technically is)
Where Downpour failed most for me though is with the hidden slugcat, Inv or whatever people are calling that creature now. It could've been a genuinely cool thing, a new piece of lore hidden away through a puzzle. They could've easily made Nightcat, the abandoned arena slugcat, into the secret campaign and deliver something the fans would love without having to waste 3 YEARS or however long it took on a shitty dating sim with only 5 endings and zero actual substance.
Love the essay! Personally I've always disliked how Downpour became a story about iterators, when my favorite part of the original game was always about the slugcats and the ecosystem they exist in (it's telling that FP was my least favorite region in the og game due to the lack of interesting flora and fauna and ecosystem-like elements I fell in love with)
I do appreciate how much replayability Downpour added, but I absolutely agree that Expeditions are the most interesting form of that. The new slugcats are too OP to rlly enjoy just living amongst the ecosystem. Not to mention how most of the campaigns are just fetch quests for... you guessed it, iterators! (Someone make a dialogue skip mod, please...) It's a totally different experience trying to live it out in a region with one of the downpour scugs compared to trying to live it out with Survivor, Monk, and Hunter.
And god yeah glad somebody said it. Downpour dialogue is agonizingly cringeworthy, you can tell amazing coders made up the DP team but not great writers... like what is that dialogue when spearmaster comes into pebbles' chamber the first time with MoC. "Hmm SRS sent me a pearl okay I guess I'll read it aloud bc why not?' The blatant fanservice is physically painful sometimes
Now I understand why after 2000 hours I still only play hunter 😂😂😂😂
You are the only person I have ever seen to complain about stability in Downpour. I play on a disgusting potato laptop, i3 with fucking integrated graphics. I have finished the entire game, every campaign, every pearl, every broadcast, every bullshit challenge, I have 200+ hours. I am being %100 honest when I say this: I haven't experienced A SINGLE crash or major lag issue throughout it all. Is this really an important widespread problem like you make it out to be?
I also experience crashes, and quite regularly. Compared to the 1.5 era, when the game never really crashed for me, the stability of 1.9 has not been great. But I never experienced lagging. I also see many experiencing crashing, and they also crash regularly. I find it a surprise to see someone who never had the game crash on 1.9.
rubicon was one of my least favorite regions, and one of the biggest reasons was the fact that guardians and miros vultures on the same screen would cause my game to drop from 60 to like 20 fps. i have an i7 and 3070, so a lot of things were clearly not very well optimized, beyond the more common crashes from my experience.
@@soloraceschannelvery interesting. It's been around a year since I last played the game, so maybe a bad patch came out that messed things up some time? Never had the game before Downpour so I can't say anything about stability for earlier versions.