Post-Failure Training for Muscle Growth?
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 31 май 2024
- TIMESTAMPS
00:00 Intro
00:21 What is Failure?
01:34 Post-Failure Training
02:51 Proximity to Failure & Hypertrophy
03:44 Post-Failure Training & Hypertrophy
07:10 Effective Reps?
07:49 How to Implement Post-Failure Training?
12:40 Joint Stress
14:02 Practical Recommendations
STUDIES
sportrxiv.org/index.php/serve...
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37523...
journal.iusca.org/index.php/J...
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31824...
ONLINE COACHING & CONSULTING
www.flowhighperformance.com/s...
BOOKS & TRAINING TEMPLATES
www.flowhighperformance.com/p...
COURSES
www.flowhighperformance.com/c...
SOCIAL MEDIA
Facebook - / flowhighperformance
Instagram - / flow.high.performance
![KFF Singapore Badminton Open 2024 | Alfian/Ardianto (INA) [7] vs. Liang/Wang (CHN) | QF](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/g0QGafkoT2o/mqdefault.jpg)
So google advertised an article to me a few hours ago about and new study on drop sets. Instead of reading it my lazy self searched youtube to see if there were any videos done on this subject. There were none, but one hour later... I respect your grind sir.
🤣
Crazy intensity protocol:
1º Warm up set
2º Hard set until failure;
3º 2 mini sets (myo reps) with 2/3 cheat reps at the end of each mini set.
4º Drop the weight (dropset) and back to step 2
Repeat this until mental breakdown or heart failture
Mental breakdown 😂
It will be intense in case of legs though
@@ssgamer5693 Legs are shitty as f, I usually choose exercise with low probability of injury like single leg presses and lunges because if I would do free weight squat I would kill myself.
Skip the 3rd step -- too high chance of injury! -- and instead replace that with one or more drop sets until you are completely FAIL'd
4:14 - "And none of these differences were considered statistically significant"
4:27 - "So it seems that drop sets training is certainly effective for muscle growth"
As a former data analyst that hits hard for me :D
So often people get statistically insignificant results and still try to force the desired conclusion
I am not a statistics expert, so I am definitely open to criticism here. However, even disregarding statistical significance, results seemed to favour drop sets to a small extent. So I interpret these findings to mean that drop sets appear to be at least somewhat effective fore muscle growth. Let me know if there is something I am not accounting for 👍
@@FlowHighPerformance1 Well if not going too deep, we can't just disregard statistical significance) it is exactly the thing that allows us to interpret the data one way or another.
As the results on 4:14 were not significant - we can't say if the drop sets add anything to muscle growth or not just by looking at the data. Because even though we see the difference on the chart it might not be present in reality.
To be clear I'm talking only about the certain point in the video, where a certain conclusion is made out of insignificant results. There is nothing wrong about the whole point of the video, and other examples shown.
Yes, I definitely agree. The point I was trying to make in the video was that drop sets seem to be effective for muscle growth - not that they are better than traditional training 👍
Excellent food for thought. I'm definitely going to incorporate some of these techniques into my next session to see if it helps me get to failure more efficiently.
Thank you for posting this video and all the your other science based . One of the the best channels on YT.💪🏼
No problem 👍
I’ve been looking for this info for a while, thanks!!!
No problem 👍
Good stuff. As always, we also need to be aware of systemic fatigue.
Doing some post-failure curls at the end of a workout is fine but once we start playing with this a bit too carelessly it can impact our training performance in undesired ways, I think.
Many thanks
My mantra is growth occurs in the area between fatigue and failure
So these methods are artificially extending this zone. More bang for buck.
That's a good way to look at it 👍
First, thanks again for all of your efforts researching.
One of your previous videos referenced a study that suggested the best way to train was traditional sets with at least 3 minutes rest between sets. This takes up so much time. So, it seems the message from this video is that the main benefit of PFT is time efficiency? I'd happily take a slight reduction in effectiveness for better time efficiency and reduced load. I'm already doing some drop sets. Perhaps I'll try some MYO as well.
Yes, this is correct - if you are using post-failure techniques to REPLACE traditional training.
However, if you use these techniques to extend traditional sets, then it would make the overall stimulus superior.
But in most cases, the former is more relevant 👍
In the pre-fatigue study, isn't it possible that pre fatigue group see more growth only because of additional volume (additional set per session)
yes, this is definitely possible 👍
If we want to change from traditional to myo reps, drop sets, or any other, how to compare the volume with traditional training? also in the myo reps technique, we take only 30 seconds of rest, so the set performed after rest should be considered as a second set or continuation of 1 set? If it is considered as one set, do we have to do like that for every set, like sets of 4?
I would consider each drop set or myo rep set as a set for that muscle group. Eg. 1 straight set + 3 myo rep sets would be considered 4 sets 👍
@@FlowHighPerformance1 So, it's time efficient. But the volume here reduces compared to traditional training. So, is there any thing we have to change about that?
Usually myosets are defined with ~5 s between the sets to distinguish them from more general rest-pause training.
At ~ 6:30 you speak of "higher legpress training volume". But you also would have to count the leg-extention volume, as this also trains the quads. It would still be possible that the pre-exhaust group hat simply more volume (just split on leg extentions and legpress).
Yes, this is very possible 🤔
I have to respectfully disagree. While drop sets may be "effective" they are certainly not efficient. The 5 studies that showed a slight improvement in drop sets over normal didn't take into account volume or time. They have more volume and took a lot more time.
The Amount of time and effort you place on post failure training compared to what little extra gains you're gonna get you could have put on other body parts and received a lot more gains. There's only so much stimulation one muscle can give one brain and only so much it can grow over a certain amount of time. Our body however is designed to survive also and we're built to go beyond the point of just muscle protein synthesis so yeah if you wanted to you could bench press 30 sets... Sure... Tomorrow see how you feel
I feel like drop sets are just increasing recovery time.
Ye u talkin about volume over time but dropsets also have more intensity.
@@Tumensial exactly! It's not the drop set it's the intensity. It's the volume it's the time one group doing more than the other group.
I was a dietetics major. These days you can find a vegan and a carnivore/keto dietitian that went to the same school got taught by the same teacher. When you quote studies to prove your point that don't exactly address what your point is you're missing the point.
He listed all five studies and I looked they all had different protocols. One had more than the other it doesn't matter whether you call it volume time or intensity
I’d have to differ, I love incorporating dropset a, the main focus is intensity
@@thatoneguy1741 now with your point I agree but your point is slightly different. You're using a drop set as a way to increase your intensity. If you like using drop sets as a way to increase your intensity then you're gonna get more gains than you would without. Anyway to make the workout enjoyable so you'll do it is better than not
People keep changing or misunderstanding my original point. Increasing intensity or whatever word anybody else reading this afterward wants to use from the thesaurus... It's great it's wonderful... Drop sets themselves I feel are not efficient for time or volume
Depends how you define efficiency. I was specifically referring to time-efficiency (hypertrophy stimulus vs time). Yes, some of these protocols used more sets compared with the traditional groups, but were still able to be completed in the same or less time.
The meta-analysis reported that the drop-set protocols took around 1/2 - 1/3 of the duration of the traditional groups - on average. And most studies showed a slight superior effect for drop sets 👍
How often would you recommend doing these? Only in the last week of a meso before deload? For some isolation exercises I think I could get away with doing post failure training throughout the meso, without significant accumulated fatigue.
Good question. I personally like to include them throughout the whole mesocycle - mostly for isolation and machine exercises 👍
Ok, I was confused because I didn't know what _"lengthened"_ meant. I finally
got that "lengthened" refereed to *_"the muscle"_* length, not an joint angle or something
i.e. where *the muscle* is longest in a rep. Then everything that followed made sense.
exactly right 👍
Think of lengthened as the opposite of shortened (aka contracted)
hi, if in the programm say 3x8 @8, i need to do the 3 sets in rpe 8? the load tend to drop or not ?
I would recommend setting a rep range (eg. 6-10) and take each set to RPE 8. You can keep the same load, but allow reps to drop each set 👍
@@FlowHighPerformance1 thank you!!
thank you 🙏
You're welcome 👍
I'm never confident whether I'm truly pushing myself close enough to failure, so I use dropsets and partials to protect against my giving up too soon on a set. If I can perform 10 reps at the target weight, I move up the weight. If I "fail" after fewer than 7 reps, then I do dropsets to failure (normally more than my target 10 reps), and if I "fail" after 7 reps, I do partials to failure. In both cases, I'll keep the weight the same for the next workout and try to get closer to my target 10 reps
yes, post-failure training techniques can be a good way to ensure you are training close to failure 👍
Replacing straight sets with only drop sets can become junk volume if you are just getting a pump without progressive overload.
True. Although you can still apply progressive overload using drop sets 👍
Of course. If a person isn't achieving measurable progress, any lifting regimen is junk volume. However, drop sets, by nature, should result in progressive overload because they are taken to failure which forces muscle adaptation.
@comingverysoon Have you been able to build mass using drop sets only? I ask because I have, it was good for general fitness but not bodybuilding.
@@nboss968 I don't use drop sets only, but regularly mix them in.
I've gotten the best results from doing 2 standard sets and immediately following the 2nd set with a couple of drop sets.
If before the drop set the straight set is High Intensity to failure, followed immediately by drop sets that are also HI to failure, the time under tension is near 100% and the opposite of what you describe
As always, your videos are very informative! If I may ask just two questions : to add a drop set to the end of my regular sets, do I go immediately from regular set to drop set or wait the same amount of rest time as I did regular sets? Secondly, how many more drop sets should I do after my batch of regular sets?
With drop sets, you do not rest. You immediately start reps at the lower weight. You don't need more than two additional drop sets.
Reduce the weight enough each time so all you can do is ~5 additional reps, max. You want each and every additional drop set rep to be an "effective" rep. That is the entire point. Some people drop the weight 50% and pump out another set of 10-12; that is nonsense because it wastes time, wastes reps and metabolic fatigue will start limiting you.
@@comingverysoon thank you for the input, much appreciated!
Agreed. No rest required. Reduce load and begin the next set immediately. You can perform multiple drop sets, but once load reduced too much, the set becomes less effective 👍
@@FlowHighPerformance1 thank you for your reply as always!
특정 저항(중량) 에서 실패까지 몇번이고 반복한다고 해서.
모든 근육타입이 애너지가 고갈되도 피로가 무적되며 재생사이클로 들어가지는 않습니다.
헤메넨 사이즈 hemmen size 에서 타입별(a, b) 근섬유의 분포를 보면
보다 큰 자득에서 활성화 되는 것이 있고 보다큰 eccentric 자극에서 tendon 중심으로 활성화되는 것이 있습니다.
때로는 같은 근육이라 하더라도
자극의 종류(주로 방향과 연결된 운동사슬) 에따라 근육방추‘들이 상이하게 자극을 받고 긴장상태에 이르며 활성화됩니다.
근육운동과 근비대의 관계를 이해하는데 중요한 것이 바로
근육방추와 운동사승 입니다.
I used to train past failure allowing my form to break down way too much.
Now I define momentary muscular failure as a point where the forces in the joints (or fulcrims) cannot overcome the moment that the weight enacts upon the body.
In other words, if you are using external forces; you are already training past (technical) failure and those reps oughta be logged as a mechanical dropset, right after the first working set.
Nice, makes sense 👍
Yeah, if planning on "post-failure" then the best ⏳️time efficiency is likely to immediately stop at first inability to complete full rep with perfect form🙅♂️ -- then immediately go into drop set! No wasted time on slower stretched partial reps or cheat reps (both of which could be higher chance of injury too 🤕)
as a beginner i'm just stopping as closely short of failure as possible but not doing all these additional techniques yet.
I think i'll use them whenever my newbie gains stop after a year of two
That is a very sensible approach. These techniques are definitely more useful as you become more advanced 👍
I have tried this approach for my first few months of training, and i realised later that our (or my) perception of RPE is pretty inaccurate and I was stopping way short of the RPE 8 I was aiming for. I would suggest going to failure as much as possible, since in the beginner phase we aren't generating that much (if any) fatigue to begin with. I promise you will not regret it. GO HARD!!!
@@jean-fy9io it's not that hard to just go to failure to see what it feels like and then see what 1 or 2 before failure feels like, it's usually pretty obvious (to me) when i can do exactly 1 more with almost clean technique.
jeff nippard has an old video on that, basically when your rep concentric slows down significantly by like 1,5 to 2x it's usually either 1 RIR or 2 RIR which is the perfect sweet spot
but for sure it's true, in order to get that feeling you should learn how to push to failure first, but better at a rep range of around 15 than injuring yourself with like a 80% 1 RM
Do you think is ok to do insanity workouts after lifting weights 6days a week?
I don't know what insanity workouts are
@@FlowHighPerformance1 insanity is a 30 min non stop hitt
Isn't Post-Failure Training just adding volume to the training? Like adding an additional set to an exercise. Would be nice to compare the effect of dropsets with additional "normal" sets.
Kind of. Post-failure methods can be used to either:
1. Make traditional sets more effective.
2. Add volume in a time-efficient manner
@@FlowHighPerformance1 Thank you for replying
I reccommend post failure techniques on smaller musclegroups you hit less often with less weight. Dropsets and mechanical dropsets.
Definitely not reccomendable for bench squat and deadlift because these exercises already cause a lot of fatigue.
Yes, definitely more appropriate for isolation lifts 👍
Linear leg press machine, this week I tried adding a 75% drop set after my normal HIT-to-failure set, and OUCH it sure seemed to work even more than usual. 48 hours later still feeling good DOMS
I always reach ECCENTRIC failure when training.
I would like to see this
drop sets and partial are how I grew my biceps literally my only muscle that wouldn't grow no matter what before that haha had arm genetics but at least my legs grow with little effort 😢
now if only chest would grow 😩 manifesting 🙏
@@isabellecross2742check out: team 3d alpha. His nuclei overload videos.
Try doing some isometric holds for like 10 seconds at the fully contracted point of the exercise (e.g. pec fly) halfway through
@@DarrenJohn10X ohh I'll try that!
Myoreps rule. Timesafer and same muscle building effect.
But 10 seconds not 30 lol
We all want a face reveal and full workout vlog with FHP.
Nahhhhhhhhhh
I make my own imaginary face, shape, body and personality on a youtuber who hasn't shown irl versions of this
I don't want it to be broken, i choose ignorant bliss here
I have a little of my own training footage in this playlist ruclips.net/p/PLshkNGRYLVSZwDgXebsd5D08ldLgpCx6M
I still have no idea what this bloke is talking about, and am still finding these vids great for quickly falling asleep to, but I do have one suggestion based on the very little I've comprehended prior to falling asleep. Seems like there is way, way too much info here. I believe the topic is how to muscle-up. That should almost go without saying. Lift weights progressively - meaning increase the load and the "reps" as much as you can and in due course your muscles will grow - simple as that. Now I have to go to sleep - just got back from the gym.
I'm impressed you managed to comment while asleep. Nice work 👍
5 - 10 partial reps after failure is the best, it really gets the last bit of strength out of your muscles
No failure uploaded here.
Have you researched the principles of performing very slow reps?
Example....
Lat pulldown...
6 seconds to the chest then.. pause followed by 12 seconds back to the starting position and repeating without ever locking out until no more can be done.
Cheers.
Thank you for uploading and sharing.
In general, slower eccentric tempos with moderate-fast concentric tempos appear to be best for muscle growth 👍
@@FlowHighPerformance1 Thank you for the reply. 🔁
Pre-failure is dumb. It's better to do compound exercises before isolation exercises imo
It can be beneficial if you are injured, or want to reduce joint stress for any other reason 👍
Dorian Yates and Lee Haney both advocate pre fatigue techniques for this reason.
Not really...
Pre-Failure or Pre-Exhaust aka Isolation exercise followed by a Compound exercise is effective at further targeting the muscle you are trying to achieve a growth stimulus/taking to failure.
So, you go from a set of bicep isolation exercise, superset with a palms facing pulldown or pull up (usually a static hold followed by a slow + controlled eccentric) for an example.
So, as the biceps were cooked by the bicep exercise, you further turn it into charcoal through the use of the other muscles assisting the biceps in that movement to further degrees of failure.