How long to do EV batteries last? Lets look at a 6 year old Renault Zoe 22kWh electric car.
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- Опубликовано: 29 сен 2024
- In this video, I plug in our diagnostic scanner into this 6 year old Renault Zoe and show what the BMS (battery management system) reports.
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I bought a 65 plate 22kw i model (non lease battery) and it showed 63% SOH until I got the BMS update. Now it’s showing 98% after 50000 miles. Just passed it’s MOT with no issues. The original SOH of the battery is probably why I got it at a bargain £6k !
Good buy. That's the way to get them.
Yup, you did well. People have paid that much for the car without the battery, which they then need to lease or buy for a large amount of dosh.
Ah the fabled 98%. You know they all do that after the BMS update.... its a lie. You'll soon see the SOH dropping.
Hi. After the bms update your range went up too?
@@suatsert3523 It seems to be calculating the range correctly. It's been getting 3.5 miles/KWh and about 80 miles to a charge which is about right for the 22KWh battery.
Great video Matt. I've got a Zoe ZE80 and absolutely love it. I've never had a proper charging point at home. I've got a £130 charger from Amazon and only ever charge it at 6 or 8 amps every other night and keep it generally between 30 and 70%. We take it on long journeys, but generally use it for commuting to work and back. It's a brilliant car.
Great video. Thanks Matt. Interested to understand more about this topic for my battery leased 35k miles 64 plate. Like others amazed by the range that your vehicle is showing in the cold, interested in the device you have, and wondering how to check for BMS updates. I tried a Konnwei OBD dongle and just couldn't get CanZE to connect. I'll be very glad when there's a decent second hand EV servicing network to tell us these things. Renault dealers pretty useless on Zoe help.
Loving the Zoe after 20 months. A perfect second car (which gets used in preference to the ICE all the time).
I like your summation at the end. Basically battery degradation is overblown. However it’s not just the Gen 1 LEAFs that have issues. Even the current LEAF does not have thermal battery management. Itks on my Don’t Buy list for unwary consumers.
Great video as always.
I've got a 2015 and I've not seen any real degradation. Range changes all the time depending on the weather..
The BMS update is a nightmare to get Renault to do especially from franchise dealers as it takes days to complete. Fortunately videos like this help..
Check the heating works as mine was faulty and fortunately got it fixed under warranty. The the air con heater unit cost £1500. I couldn't believe it failed on a car that was only 4 years old and had 22k on the clock.
Apart from the those first issues it's a brilliant town/second car..
Don't buy it if you intend to use the charging network it's just not good enough..
Open circuit voltage is slightly higher than the voltage you'll get under load. Also, the voltage drops slightly when state of charge drops. I.e. multiplying open circuit voltage with Ah will not yield an accurate number for how much energy the battery can supply.
This has increased my confidence in buying a secondhand ev like the Zoe 👍
Plenty of similar videos on the channel too.
I wasn't aware lower mileage EV's often have slightly higher battery degradation than high mileage EV's. But the way you explained it makes sense. Another informative video!
I tend to disagree on that one. EV's with very good battery temperature and charge management systems, don't show this trend. General Motors Spark EV and Bolt, do have liquid cooling and heating system for the battery pack and the inboard charger never charges the battery passed a threshold that would accelerate its degradation. I own a 2016 Spark EV and it had only 19 000 kilometres when I bought it in 2020 and its battery is in top shape now in March 2022, with 35 000 kilometres. I keep it plugged whenever I don't use it so the battery management system takes good care of its protégé
@@JacquesPPage Yes it’s incorrect. Most modern EVs have a buffer at the top of at least 5% and sensible EV owners only charge to 80% unless they’re planning on a long trip the following day. The Zoe might be an exception being a short range EV. It’s cycles and calendar age that degrade batteries. A 22kWh Zoe with 150,000 miles on the clock is going to be a lot more degraded because that’s a minimum of 1250 cycles of such a small battery. The proof is in the video - this battery is close to 100% after 6 years of. light use. 25,000 miles = about 210 cycles - 250 cycles.
If the cells are type Li 18650 cells or similar construction leaving them at 100% literally destroys. Got lots of experience with lithium packs for rc aircraft and drones.
Cars should have protection to discharge the cells to 3.7v volts as leaving them at 4.2v is not good
Looks like they dont fully charge the cells anyway
So its not really the mileage that is a factor but the user charging routine of the lower mileage vehicle that is the degredation reason for lower mileage cars.
Lower mileage cars that are only normally charged to 80% except when balancing charging or going for a run won't deteriorate any more than a high mileage car?
Thanks for the information and useful videos. We purchased a new 21 plate Zoe 110 Iconic and my wife loves it. She manages 4 miles per kWh with the heating and seat on and it's done 2568 miles with only a tail light getting condensation in it as a fault. We keep it below 80 (and above 20%), unless it's being used, and the information I've read is you get the most cycles between 65-75%, but that would be hard to do in the real world. We're not too concerned that it's lost its NCAP rating...
Maybe a van next, to convert to a campervan, so we can travel for free...
Thanks, same experience here - 2014 Zoe with 100k km, battery is still at 95% (!!!). Can't believe it.
My Zoe is at 98%. Also keep in mind this is air cooled so is holding well,but new ones liquid cooled should last a lot more do to the advantages of keeping battery at optimal temperature during all external temperature variations
Very informative, a ZE40 60000km 4.5y old car, driver
That also is NOT how the capacity calculation works. It’s not an instantaeneous thing affected by temperature on the day. It’s measured by a shunt across the output that measures the amount of energy the battery delivers while being discharged in amps. It then compares the starting voltage to the end voltage and based on the batteries discharge curve it estimates the full cycle capacity. So at best it’s a calculation based on partial discharges and recharge cycles on the battery measured against voltage. The only way to get an entirely accurate reading is to fully charge the vehicle and then fully discharge it. That will give the BMS a 100% to zero capacity. Which is the true capacity. Disappointing I know but there is no way to measure a battery’s capacity instantly. The capacity can also vary with temperature and load. But only during discharge.
How do you get the BMS update?
great to see good informative content about EVs rather than the usual scaremongering
Yes so much rubbish is published in the mainstream media.
Scaremongering and lies is what msm does.
As hundreds of cars have crashes every week and when EV,'s catch up in build volume. How will the car battery's get recycled. Seems there will be a lot to get rid off.
A good question. Recently, I’ve come across one or two RUclips entries to do with outfits that use various components like traction batteries, motors and so on, that were recovered from “written off” EVs, so as to convert old cars and vans into electric traction in lieu of their old engines. So there appears to be a second hand market for items like that. It’s not clear if EVs are more likely to be written off compared with other things, though.
I had nothing to comment, but this is a useful video and that should be encouraged so this comment is simply to lure the YT statistics analytics code and give it something to chew on 👍
Thanks for that!
Very informative.
I think your figures are correct. They give a total battery capacity of 26.6kWh which, for a 22kWh Z0E, seems about right.
Would be interested to see your mg battery
Great info many thanks.
People complaining about battery degradation whilst driving a 10 year old ICE is interesting.
That's good news. As someone that normally drives cars that are old but in reasonable condition, 10 years or so. I was concerned by what would happen to the sub-£2000 end of the market. If the doom sayers were right and a ten-year-old EV would have depleted their battery pack. What with the cost of replacing it, the sub-£2000 car would disappear. As an EV with a dead battery is useless and a ten-year-old EV with a new battery wouldn't be sub-£2000!
Can any OBD2 scanning device get that battery health % data?
Good video, thanks
What do you think to the Dacia Spring, I think it is an ideal town EV
Just seen my first Dacia Spring on the road yesterday near Poitiers airport (we live in France), they have suddenly started selling well here.
Its not available in the UK and the last reports I saw said they are not making a right hand drive model, so will never be coming, so I've ignored it.
Quick question; does that mean with the older cars without the BMS update that the battery degradation is around 60-70% can have the software update and gain a big percentage in the range?
Or do you mean the damage has already been done to the battery and the update will only slow any further damage?
The original buggy BMS software will (supposedly) correctly calculate the SoH and a battery at around 65% will then be showing around 94% after the update, with an increase in range.
Good information
Nice video. I'm surprised you have so much range in the cold weather. My 2016 Zoe with about the same mileage only gets about 80 miles range in this weather and in summer i can get 107 miles. How do I check I have the latest BMS?
If the car is showing that kind of range, you have the latest BMS. But if you want to double check, you can buy an OBD2 dongle and use the CanZE app to check. Plenty of RUclips videos on this.
do you know what oil i need for the gearbox of a 2015 zoe? please and thanks
Fully synthetic MTF SAE 75W-80, approx 0.6 ltr
@@GoGreenAutos perfect thank you!!!
@@GoGreenAutos what happened was. changed passenger front spring and didn't notice the drive shaft had came out a bit and spilled some oil out.
which vehcles have the best used batteries? Are the chinese EVs (BYD etc) less effective or poorer after used batteries than European?
The only Chinese batteries I've seen in the UK are in Maxus and MG vehicles and none are old enough yet to have a clear picture. But my feeling is that these SAIC Motor batteries will be as good or better than most others. They all are pretty similar anyway and it comes down to cooling and heating systems.
@@GoGreenAutos thank you. i'm thinking of getting an EV to test run its efficiency in my area (W.Africa). Of course due to cost of EVs i will have to get a used and affordable one. From your video i realise i can judge EV mileage as ICEs. 27k seems still good. I cant also ship from UK , closer but we use left hand stairing wheel here. You made a video of Zoe here, have you tested batteries of chevrolet Bolt EV? what can you say about it or any other american battery?
@@tumininuadebambo We don't get the Bolt in the UK so have no experience of them. The only US cars we get is Teslas and recently the Ford Mustang Mach-e, which is made in Mexico. But EV batteries are all pretty similar tech, so there's no difference really, apart from the Nissan Leaf, as this has no active cooling and generally suffer worse degradation.
@@GoGreenAutos thank you. Cheers
Hello! Thanks! for a good Video. Could you please write and tell me exactly what your Diagnostic Tool that you use in the Video is called. And if you know anything about this, which I am sending you, I would be VERY GRATEFUL if you would share some of your knowledge. READ THE TEXT INSIDE PARENTS Thank you! From Tommy Bertilsson from Sweden. (((Hello! Thanks for the great video. Do you know if you have to use a diagnostic tool when removing the electric motor from a Renault Zoe. I have bought a Repair and Service manual for the Renault Zoe. It says this at the beginning of the work on removing the electric motor. (Apply the Before repair procedure using the Diagnostic tool: Use: -Computer concerned by the After repair procedure:
"BCB",
-Component controlled by this computer concerned by the After repair procedure:
"electric vehicle charger//calculator BCB".
Apply the Before repair procedure using the Diagnostic toolDiagnostic tool : Use : -Computer concerned by the After repair procedure:
"PEB",
-Component controlled by this computer concerned by the After repair procedure:
"electric traction reduction gear assembly"). Is this with the Diagnostic Tool an important part of the work?))).
Comment #133
Thanks for easing my mind over battery degradation, my family keep asking how long my battery will last, they think buying an electric car means that I’ve been duped out of my money.
Great video Matt thank you. We live in France also have a 2014 22kwh Zoé that I purchased from Renault Poitiers with just 7000km on the clock. It's been faultless over the last year and 11,000 km driving in all weathers, including a regular 110 km long commute. The 2 pedal reset shows a max theoretical range of 203 km / 123 miles - interestingly this has increased slightly since I collected the car, due in my opinion to the pack rebalancing after a long period of inactivity. This is our 2nd Zoé and it's proving to be the perfect frugal hackabout, but we are on the hunt for something bigger and longer range now. Please keep the content coming!
Sounds like we live a bit south of you in the Deux-Sevres. Good to hear the Zoe has performed well. Renault generally have not had a great reputation for reliability of their ICE powered cars, the Zoe seems to be repairing that and the new Megan e-tech looks great and is getting favourable reviews. We’ve had a Kia e-Niro since March 2019, so one of the first batch into France. We got it from the main dealer in Niort (Cachet Giraud) who subsequently dropped Kia but this hasn’t been a problem as Groupe Barbier (La Rochelle) opened a Kia dealership in Niort next door to their Hyundai franchise. The car has been great with only the passenger side wing mirror being replaced under warranty when it failed to fold back on locking the car. I am taking the car in for its 60,000 km service this afternoon. If you are looking for something a bit bigger and longer range then I can recommend the Kia...You are welcome to look at Kia e-Niro Diaries Encore on RUclips where I record the long term ownership experience..on road trips around France, to UK and Germany.
Hy! Do you want to sell the car?
Good information expelling some of the battery myths. My 30kWh Leaf according to leafspy is at 96.5% after 27000 miles and 5years old. It has a 3.3kw onboard charger and I try to keep within 20-80%SOC. If I have a long trip then I do charge to 100% but drive as soon as the charge has stopped.
Most battery myths come from those with zero EV ownership experience, and can be debunked easily.
@@Brian-om2hh Like?
@@Brian-om2hhbut so much bs from ev enthusiasts.
I'm hoping to go electric at some point in the future, and information of this kind is invaluable. The Zoe seems a great car if you can live with the limited range.
ZE 40 has 150 miles plus or minus 20 miles. If you can get a 3-5 year old one, battery-owned (ZE40i) you will have enjoyable and inexpensive motoring. Just remember that many of them will only charge at maximum of 22kW, so if you go on a long journey, it is 1 hour charging for every 60 miles range you need.
This video isnt quite correct as it misses a crucial point. Nearly all EV batteries have some level of over provisioning, so the original battery was around 24kwh with only 22kwh available for use. This means the real degradation is more like 15-20%.
Just thought I'd comment as I own a 2016 22kw Zoe that has done 53k miles have had her from new battery helth is between 97% and 95% depending on SOC and temperature when you measure the helth according to CanZE
Thank you so much, Matt, for yet another great video! Just to get some more stats here in the comments field: I own a 2019 ZE40 R110 with 11K miles and it’s at 96% (I always charge it to 100% but never leave it there for days)
I'm not upset, means I'll be able to get a decent secondhand car from you! 😂
Diesel driver here (yeah, i know...) I'm thinking about a second-hand EV as a local runabout (and use the diesel for long journeys). This is certainly useful information about battery life. The cost still scares me, a lot...
Don't be scared. Have an EV since ten months, basically I switched from paying to the petrol company to paying to the bank but the grand total is definitely less (on 28000 km/year). The running cost is ridiculously low. Longer journeys is more of a hassle than with a petrol car, but in no way unbearable. The worst part is the payment for fast charging (you need one solution per company, generally you can't simply pay with a bank card) and the rate of broken fast chargers.
The driving experience - you realize how it must have been on the railways when the steam locomotives were phased out... you won't regret going electric! No way I'm going back.
@@altoclef6688 Thank you for this reasoned reply. I still feel I would keep the dinosaur burner for the longer journeys, and use an EV as a local runabout.
Aside: Are you a viola player?
@@Soruk42 I am a very bad viola player but yes, I play the viola. Main instrument is the piano. But I want to promote the viola, it's an often overlooked instrument with a very pleasant sound.
Haha you’ll not want to go back to diesel after driving an ev!
The cost diesel scared me, driving EV since Nov 2023 after my old diesel failed beyond economic repair. So far in 8 months and 12000 miles I have had 1/3 “fuel” costs and that’s with public charging as well as about 50% peak rate home charging. Literally a game changer! Oh and so much more enjoyable to drive.
Top explanation! A degradation is prevented by one magic rule of the manufacturers BMS: Never discharge or fully charge to 0 or 100%. That is what keeps them alive for a very very long time! The usable range is somehow always set between 5% and 95%. Also 100% SOC Status means ~95% charged. But even without owning a car you can experience this effect: With your personal electronics! I had now 2 Thinpad Computers for the last 15 years: The integrated Battery Management has allowed to set the max. charge percentager; I have always set it to 90%. I had never replaced any battery on both computers during this long period of time. And their battery capacities are still fine. Even on my 2006 Model.
It needs to be user settable for us geeks. So for example i could set my ev charger to only charge to 90% unless I'm going on a long journey. True the manufacturers BMS will not go to actual 100% but its always a compromise between battery life and headline range.
Can you set it so it switches off at a certain level of capacity? (eg 90%)
Why o why don't Renault and other EV manufacturers give advice on how to minimize battery degradation. And in particular a setting in the charging system to not charge the battery to full charge unless the user specificly wants max range for a long journey. Or just simply advice to owners to not charge or to interrupt charging unless the vehicle is about to be used. This goes for all equipment such as phones etc that have a Li-ion battery. The guy I bought my Kangoo EV from thought it was a good idea to run the battery flat whenever possible!!😬
It’s one of those mysteries in life along with why instruction manuals are incomprehensible to human beings! 🤷♂️
I wondered why the battery on my 2016 Zoe 40 failed after 5 years with just 14k on the clock. Seems likely the previous owner kept it charged up fully and hardly used it (it had less than 10k on the clock when I bought it at 4yrs old) I wasn't impressed by the Renault dealer charging me £300 to upgrade the BMS (especially now I know it was to fix a bug that was Renault's responsibility) and then £120 to tell me what the dash display had already said i.e. that the traction battery would no longer charge. On the plus side it was a leased battery so I got a replacement free, and Renault agreed to refund most of my costs ... and provided a leased car while mine was being fixed, horrible to drive an ICE again !!
This is unusual to need a new battery on a ZE40. But yes, leaving the car for long periods at 100% SoC is the worst thing you can do to a pack. That is why I always buy high mileage EVs for my own use - they're cheaper and have better packs.
@@GoGreenAutos that's really good to know that higher mileage is probably better (if SOC is still high)
As I am unsure how long my car is going to last (turbo oil feed pipe had cracked and let all the oil out was driven for shot time with no oil, I had engine wiring loom problem a the time as well didn't alert me of the low/oil low pressure condition until my brake booster assist stopped working because the vacuum pump wasn't to happy not having oil, all fixed for now but no oil for short time is still isn't very good for a engine and can destroy it self at a later date as the bearings eat away if they got damaged when there was no oil)
so looking at an ev car to reduce fuel costs and impeding "emission 50 yard zones £12 day when you cross into different areas" so need a car that can do 100-130miles a day ideally from one charge (ideally with heater use included if needed) i got a bit of research ahead I guess
Battery's usually have slightly more capacity than what they actually sell them as (the lower end of the battery is usually reserved so not to discharge the battery to much and damage it)
What about having a Webasto heater installed to help with the winter range decrease ?
Thank you.
There are a few RUclips videos posted by Mitsubishi iMIEV owners who have fitted a heater with good results. Sounds like a sensible idea for a 22kWh Zoë but not seen it done yet.
ive heard a renault Zoe 22kwh has done 600,000 miles on original battery- not sure how true that is. I had a 40kwh zoe and I did 50,000 miles in 2 years and it was 97% SOC
I like these videos. It's good to see what the batteries are like
Just found your channel,it’s great.
I have a Honda e for which there is very little tech
info from Honda and as a retired Fleet Transport Engineer I find this a bit frustrating.
Battery life is often referred to in total number of cycles. I have never seen the definition of a cycle, ie is it one full cycle from 0% to 100% or can it be any charge and discharge cycle say from 50% to 80%.
Any ideas? Honda don’t mention cycle in their warranties, just 8 years.
The e is rated at 35Kwh with a useable rate of 28.5Kwh. I charge it when I reach about 20% and charge to 100%. I assume that the 100% will actually be about 95%. Am I correct?
As the battery is liquid cooled there can be quite a lot of range used controlling the battery temperature.If I need the full range I normally leave the car plugged in until I use it as I assume that this will keep battery topped up during any battery management activity. Is this correct?
Please keep the videos coming 👍🏻🥳
Glad you found the channel. I've been making hundreds of videos over years now and some only get a few hundred views. Its very frustrating how the channel hasn't grown.
I've not had a Honda e in yet, but yes when you charge to 100%, the battery will be at something like 95% SoC.
The liquid cooling on your pack probably isn't used too much (in the UK), as batteries run hotter than you'd imagine. Its probably only cooled when doing a DC rapid charge or on the occasional hot summer day. Most of the time, its probably warming the pack (if it has a heating function).
But yes, if you leave the car plugged in, it will be at 100% SoC when you disconnect. If anything used power, the charge will be called for, if its plugged in.
As for what is a battery cycle, its not when known or documented. But I really wouldn't worry about it. Far too many people worry about battery degradation and battery health. The car has a BMS which looks after the battery for you, so you just need to plug in and forget about it. The majority of people will not keep a vehicle long enough to ever experience any battery degradation, yet spend far too much effort trying to look after the battery for little or no gain. But because most fear change or are weary of things that are new, there is too much emphasis given to degrading battery packs when its not really an issue. Engines have a lifespan and on average it is looking like its less than an EV battery pack, yet most people are quite slack with oil changes (if its out of warranty) and don't obsess with its wear and degrading.
I'm not saying you're like this...but this is how generally EVs are perceived and how new EV drivers treat their EVs. The worst thing to get is a app to track the battery SoH. I know many Leaf owners who do this and then get completely obsessed with their battery health.
@@GoGreenAutos Thanks for your reply it. Was very useful. I chose the Honda because of the conservative
approach they have always had to their design and their reliability. The car is over engineered in every respect.
I know what you mean about Nissan Leaf owners.
Everything depends on BMS and cooling. Tesla is the only company that so far has shown they know how to give batteries a long life. Liquid cooling / heating is the only way to go. Every day driving charge 80% as this the fastest way to get charged both for every day use and for long road trips.
I want to know how you got 78 miles left on 63% battery!
average of 20.9kWh/100 miles looks really good.
~160 km on one charge - not bad for a city car of this price.
Had 2014 Dec 22.4 kw hour , 43 kw ac max charging motor . On sale in sept 2020 had 45 000 miles approx , had no noticeable degradation , despite being 43 ac charged and 22 Kwan charged for most of its life . Actually believe had better range when sold than when new as Renault did bms update which allowed better range when updated in third year at service
I do wonder if the updated BMS is just unlocking some extra capacity of the battery to save Renault having to replace under the battery lease agreement?
I think that's OK- they were probably being cautious and waiting to see how real world use would affect batteries. Now they have more data, they have the confidence to unlock a bit more capacity, which is helpful for us as owners.
i have q210 from 2013. SoH 91%
You have to use the nominal voltage of the cells which is 3.6V which makes it a 345V battery. Which makes it roughly 24.36kWh but Zoe is probably keeping 10% - 15% in reserve so roughly 22kWh capacity.
That isn't a reserve....
That was a most interesting and informative video. 2% degradation seems to be bucking the trend but is in line with my Zoe experience which was a 2014 car that I recently traded in . That was indistinguishable from when I bought it four years earlier and I would estimate that it had only degraded a similar amount to the one you are looking at. I would never have seen 70odd miles at 63% charge without resetting though, so I assume you had done that. I have heard that you can recover a mistreated battery. If it has been abused like you said and shows some degradation, treating it well can sometimes see it recover to some extent. Thanks, Tim
Gom isn't a good indicator of much. Don't rely on it
If 70.6 would really be the max capacity in Ah of those types of Zoes each of your Zoes of the same type must have that same value there what you easily could check out.
And btw the name of the value is Total capacity and not max capacity.
CanZe for instance reports a usable charge and an actual charge value in % what ever that means.
The difference between these two value is inversely proportional to the pack temperature and, from my observations, is higher at lower temperatures.
4:20 Therefore I assume that 63.1% may correspond to the real charge and the value 70.6 could be the usable charge in %, but by no means the max capacity of the pack.
5:31 Not to apply a unit to a number btw is useless and a nogo to my opinion and only gives room for speculations.
Fact is, when fully charged the battery has 395V which equals 4.115V/cell.
The max capacity of the pack is 22kWh which means 22000VAh/395V=55.7Ah and *by no means 70.6Ah.*
So I think it might be better for the lower mileage driver to charge the car to 80% and charge a few times more. Same usage for the driver but less stress for the battery?
I was looking for a guide for a older Renault Zoe and your video is very informative, thankyou so now I know what to look for in a 2nd hand Zoe.
Glad it helped. Other Zoe videos you may find useful ruclips.net/user/GoGreenAutossearch?query=zoe
Also www.gogreenautos.co.uk/buyers-guide/renault-zoe-guide
Great clip - Has former CEO of Renault-Nissan-Mitsubishi Alliance, Carlos Ghosn faced Court for the fraud charges? Asking for a friend.
Other than Nissan batteries are very reliable as long as you look after them
You stated that reality is EV batteries don't degrade" Then what would be he purpose for that diagnostic tool? Next: this results do not show noticeable degradation, at least You did not mention it's degradation. . And You said that it was seldom used and cold around and that if they are seldom used they degrade more than those frequently used .Could it be that those frequently used after six years may improve in compare to new battery condition ?
Good info.
My Q90 ZE 40 new in June 2017 ( 4 years 8 months old ) has done 57,000 miles and the SOH is 91%.
I never charge more than 100% unless on a long trip , So the car sits around 50%- 60% most of the time.
Looking at mileage and other comments from owners I know on a Zoe forum it seems that maybe more miles driven add to a lower state of health over time.
Then owners that have done less miles over the same time period.
Well that's interesting and goes against what makes sense. I charge my model 3 to 90 once or twice a week but often wonder if that's a bit hight especially when leaving it at 90 for over 24 hrs sometimes
@@hibbs79
The battery chemistry & cooling on the model 3 is different to the Zoe , plus the Zoe only has air cooling to cool the battery.
Tesla say charging up to 90% on the Model 3 is ok.
But Renault do not give any information on what to charge up to at all on the Zoe.
That's probably why they went down the battery rental route when the Zoe first came out .
And the battery degradation effects of long term usage was still not known back then.
I know other Zoe's owners with same age car but low mileage like Matt's shown in the video above don't seem to suffer much battery degradation over time.
When the Zoe first came out the battery was leased and the battery warranty for a battery leased Zoe was covered all the time the battery was leased.
My Zoe is battery owned so comes with a 100,000 mile warranty or until the SOH goes below 66%.
I purchased it to drive it till it dies or I win a Tesla model 3.
( Driving till it dies is more likely)👍
Your formula is right. P=UI (Power=Voltage*Current) and E=Pt (Energy=Power*time). So yeah, Voltage*Current*Time = V*A*h = Wh. the you Divide by 1000 to get kWh.
I know and talk to a small few e car owners, two have had battery failure a testa s and merc hybrid. merc owner told me merc said 10% degradation per year is acceptable and won,t help anything less.
The amount of high speed charging will also have an effect degradation. The size of the buffers is also a factor.
The vast majority of EV owners will charge at home 95% of the time, mainly because it's cheaper and more convenient. Rapid charging usually only gets used on those longer trips, which happen 2 or 3 times a year for most.
The reality is that for the vast majority of cars (i.e. in the real world), rapid charging makes no measurable difference. I know of ex-taxi EVs that have had over 6,000 rapid charges and their packs are no worse others.
@@GoGreenAutos But what about Teslas, Porches etc. that the owners charge in 350kw chargers from 80 to 100 percent because of “range-anxiety” on their way home from work? Surely that would have a larger impact?
@@joelcarterramadge183 Yes that probably would have an impact. Only time will tell. But owners shouldn't be rapid charging over 80% SoC as that is just inefficient use of time and also blocks the charger for others.
@@Brian-om2hh big generalisation going on there. I commuted 320mi round trip each weekend for 3 years, plenty of rapid charging 😁
I genuinely think that ev’s around towns a cities are a good idea
But give it 10 years and the cost to replace the batteries will just mean there will be loads of them about the place due to not economically viable to replace batteries
Given the fact that chine are building 80 new coal fired power stations it is a drop in the ocean
BMS software upgrade sounds suspicious to me. So all batteries report they are healthier after the 'upgrade'? Sounds useful if you are about to sell your car.
2013 plate nissan leaf 110000 miles on the clock and 11 bars left on the battery with range of 70-80 miles in summer. Not bad to be honest, there are a good few years left in my car yet.
Yes that is good for an older Leaf...but its because yours has had more use than the typical.
@@GoGreenAutos Yes it is my main car, I use it for work and going out to town shopping etc etc. It gets charged to 100% everyday and goes down to about 30-40% battery everyday.
You're statement: low mileage cars are charged up to 100% and are barely used. But I don't see in the video where you can read out this parameters.
Great information, thank you.
What is Renault's warranty on owned battery packs?
Thanks Matt, good to know. We have the same year Zoe, is there a simple way to determine which version of the BMS software is running on the car, for example using the OBD?
I'm not not sure. With my scanner I can read the firmware level/ID, but then I've kept no records of others so don't know what code is the updated version. I've always done it by doing a two pedal reset which resets the driving economy and then can judge it from the displayed range and also looking at the battery SoH.
I'm amazed to see that a ZE22 with a charge status of 63% at 3 degrees (room temperature) is showing a range of 78 miles. I have a 65 plate ZE22 with just over 20k miles and at this time of year I'm lucky if I get an 80 mile range at 100%. Am I right in assuming that only a dealer can easily tell if my car has had the BMS update? I love my car but it would be so much better if I could get the range that your car shows.
Mine never dropped below 97 miles on the GOM but rearly would only get about 80 miles to a charge, but I live in a rural area and zoe rearly goes above 50mph and I only drive in eco
@@simonupton-millard I too do mainly rural roads in eco for 90% of the time, so it's looking like I need to get my car checked out. I've just checked it today and it's showing a range of 41 miles at 60% charge. By my reckoning, that works out at 68 miles for a full charge.
I have a 2013 22kw Zoe and this time of year the max I have is 68 miles range on a full charge. When I had it from mew it would be around 95 miles range. Had the battery checked by a main dealer and they said it was still at 100% capacity.
@@gr6075 That is strange. If the main dealer is right, it seems to defy logic! I definitely think I will visit my dealer and see if they can offer any advice. I was intending to upgrade to the ZE40, but they scarce at the moment and prices are high.
@@gr6075 there is an app called CanZE with a Bluetooth dongle it can read the battery SOH might be worth a look as that is deferentially not right
Very informative - thanks.
Each cell have 36Ah and 3.75V nominal voltage, there are 192 cells so 25.92 kWh.
There are two cells in parallel, when new it should have 72Ah. That 98% seems the real SOH and not the one that uses 23.3kWh like the SOH shown CanZE.
Now you have 70.6*3.75*96=25.416 kWh
You dont account for unusable capacity... lol
@@samusaran7317 my comment is about comparing total capacity and not usable.
_"Each cell have 36Ah and 3.75V nominal voltage, there are 192 cells so 25.92 kWh."_
How do you know that?
_"Now you have 70.6*3.75*96=25.416 kWh"_
What do you mean by that? He has a SOC of 63.1%.
From CanZe (2325 partial and 832 full loads) I know that
- when fully charged the pack voltage is 396V (4.125V/cell) and the available energy at around 20-22kWh.
- with a pack voltage of 360V (3.75V/cell) the SOC is at around 30% and the available energy 6kWh.
- when empty at around SOC of 0% the pack voltage is at around 330V (3.44V/cell).
Are you suggesting here that the Zoe pack has 72Ah*396V=28.512kWh max capacity and only providing 77% of it when new?
I don't quite get your reasoning.
Please clarify.
@@kullatnunu2087 Each cell have 36Ah of capacity and 3.75V nominal. Nominal Voltage is what is used to calculate energy.
Each cell have 135Wh of energy.
When new the energy is around 72Ah*360V=25.920kWh.
Renault choose that when voltage is 3.44V/cell it shows 0%, in reality the cell have some more energy, as they can go to to 3.0V.
@@ringone31 I'm sorry I don't get your reasoning.
You wrote _"When new the energy is around 72Ah*360V=25.920kWh."_
First of all where did you get that information from?
That means a new battery that has a voltage of 360V has an energy content of 25.92kWh and would mean a new battery that has a voltage of 310V which is dangerously low still would have an energy content of 22.32kWh according to your calculation?
That would also mean that an aged battery that has 360V but has a SOC of 30% and an available energy of 6kWh as I wrote above has just 23% of it's nominal capacity?
I don't think that's correct?
I know for a fact that once the battery is at 100% SOC the voltage is 396V.
Why does Renault show a SOC of 100% and 22kWh of available energy when according to your calculation the stored energy in the battery E=396V*72Ah=28.5kWh if it's new?
Is that the case?
The battery voltage is at least a function of the energy stored in a battery or vice versa and in case of the Zoe this function is V(E)=28ln(E)+310 or E(V)=e^(V-310/28).
That means for a given energy level say 10kWh the voltage is 28ln(10)+310=375V or 6kWh the voltage is 28ln(6)+310=360V or 22kWh the voltage is 28ln(22)+310=396V.
_"Renault choose that when voltage is 3.44V/cell it shows 0%, in reality the cell have some more energy, as they can go to to 3.0V."_
I get that ..... but below 3.44V/cell the voltage because of the logarithmical function drops very fast when energy is drawn from it which means there is not much energy to draw anymore (maybe 1kWh).
How is it managing to show 78 miles at 63% SoC in these temperatures? Did you do a 2 pedal reset before this video?
It could be that owners drove it really slow ...
Yes this had a two pedal reset when it came in as I do this to judge if the BMS has been updated.
What is the model of diagnostic tool you have, Matt? I have a Zoe and would really like a tool like that. Cheers
Its a £1,000 Autel scanner, so you wont want that! You can do the same with the CanZE app and a ODB2 dongle or buy an iCarsoft scanner with Renault software loaded. I have two of these for sale and they both work very well on the Zoe and the Kangoo ZE. Email me on matt@gogreenautos.co.uk and I'll give you the details on Monday.
Thanks for the reply. I have the OBD 2 scanner and use CANZE app but I have some issues, for one it does not give the sort of detail on battery condition that yours does, and, as I have seen others comment, incorrectly calculates the State of Health (it underreads). I would like to better monitor the battery on my Zoe than is possible with the OBD2 set up. I will email you later. Cheers, Chris
I have a 63 Reg Zoe Expression and it has done 24500, and has a battery state of health of 98%, I checked it today.
Thanks for such a clear and informative video. We have a 2017 Zoé and it is a real workhorse, at the moment it's on 135000k and certainly feeling as good as ever. I hope we can find someone to do a diagnostic like this when we come to change it up. We are in France also, and currently awaiting delivery of a Tesla model 3. So now I'm going to search through your list of video and see what you think of it. Than mes again.
thanks ...lots of really useful info there. clears up some of the myths around EV batteries.
I have now a Renault Fluence ZE. My car look like its imported from Denmark. The Fluence 2012 is a half Leaf you might say. Engine and and traction battery is Leaf. But how is it with the electronics or the BMS monitor system is there any similarity here ?
Sorry, I have no experience of the Fluence.
Can you still buy out the battery lease on order cars.
Yes you can. RCI are very slow to respond to enquires and it is currently taking them 4-5 weeks to give you a buy out price.
How to check life of battery in % - with OBD 2 scanner ? Another way ?
And how to check iif battery is under lease or is owned?
To check if the battery is leased, you need to do a HPI type check on the vehicle and the battery lease will show as secured finance against the vehicle. Or you call RCI Finance and asked them to check.
As for checking the battery, yes you need to read the BMS with a scanner or app.
Or I can offer a rental of the equipment and provide instructions, see www.gogreenautos.co.uk/renault-scanner-hire
Vdry interesting and informative video thanks
You need to use the nominal voltage (3,6v) and you'll get correct kwh.
What make & model diagnosis scanner where you using ?
Thanks P
Its a Autel MX808TSC - see www.autel.uk/diagnostics/tpms/mx808tsc/
You can do the same with the CanZE app and a ODB2 dongle or buy an iCarsoft scanner with Renault software loaded. I have two used iCarSoft Renault scanners for sale and they both work very well on the Zoe and the Kangoo ZE. If you're in the UK, email me on matt@gogreenautos.co.uk and I'll give you the details on Monday.
Very interesting about battery degradation
Thanks for another informative video
Another brilliant informative video. Thank you
This is now our car featured here. Great to hear and see this, although in fairness to Matt he had already shown us this information before we purchased it.
I can also add that with 0 miles showing and flashing many flashing lights and beeps there's still 3% left in the battery pack.
Hi John. Been pushing the Zoe to the limit then!
@@GoGreenAutos just the once. Rolled onto our driveway with 0 miles 🥴
Is the drive unit itself subject to degradation?
What kind of software/OBD are you using?
I'm using a (professional) Autel scanner, but you can do the same with a cheaper iCarsoft scanner or the CanZE app and a ODB dongle.
Is there a way for consumer like myself to check the battery health without a diagnostic tool? Does anyone offer it as a service?
Yes I can come out to you if you're in South/Central England or offer hire for a DIY, see www.gogreenautos.co.uk/renault-scanner-hire
We like our Zoe very much,would recommend.Get about 150 - 180 miles on full charge - real world driving.
The Zoe has good and bad points - just like any other car 😅
Watch out for water ingress into driver side foot well - design fault - the sill area (under the wipers area) has drainage holes which must be kept clear and free of debris.
I suspect you've seen, but I did do a video about solving the water ingress issue with the Zoe, see ruclips.net/video/5Fhj1nY2-Uc/видео.htmlsi=YlgLddcpLSI6WHOu
@@GoGreenAutos
Yes I’ve seen it - thanks.
Is it possible to get a State of health reading for older Volkswagen EVs?
I can't remember as its been a long time since I've seen one. I do remember that the BMS doesn't record a SoH figure, but I can't remember if it records a Ah figure. If it did, you then have to do the maths and compare it with what the Ah was when new.
@@GoGreenAutos thanks I’ll look for that.
Thank you for posting the indepth on battery charging
On your high mileage ioniq 28kw do you know of the range you was getting on average if you charge it to maximum
Only I've seen some high ranges that I've never achieved in the past 5 years with my own
My partner drives the Ioniq, so I rarely see the range now. But its about 125 in the winder and about 150 in the summer.
As with all vehicles (ICE & EV) the range is due to your driving economy. Look at the mpkWh figure. I expect your driving style has room for improvement. I have been meaning to make an efficient EV driving video one day.
Thank you Matt
I've never bothered using ev mode as it wasn't a function I was interested in
I do find the placing of the mode and brake hold a bother for me
It seems fine if you are just sitting there but on the move with a big coat on I usually end up putting the seat or steering heating on