The PDGA Insurance Problem
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- Опубликовано: 3 июл 2024
- You may already know that the PDGA provides event insurance for all sanctioned tournaments in the United States and Canada. But over the past year, two things happened that brought the PDGA’s event insurance policy under scrutiny. We reviewed the facts of these cases to better understand how PDGA insurance works and discussed what this means for the future of disc golf.
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CHAPTERS
0:00 PDGA Insurance Problem
0:20 Paige Pierce Injury
5:24 Nate Heinold & Ledgestone
7:29 Importance of PDGA Insurance
8:45 My Questions for You
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Chris Clark | PDGA 16694
Matthew Clark | PDGA 143565
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Basic liability car insurance covers more than $25K. If Paige's insurance only covers $80, why even have it?
Curious why Paige's personal insurance only paid out $80...because it happened overseas? Otherwise wouldn't she have a deductible and out of pocket max, etc.?
I was thinking the same thing
Having 2 insurance policies doesn’t help as much as you think. They don’t let you double dip. I learned this when I was on my wife’s insurance as well as my own. The secondary insurance did nothing.
@@erakfishfishfish Maybe it's different for you, but here in Canada we have as many insurance policies as are relevant, but you submit expenses in an "order of operations" to the first, second and third "most relevant" insurance policy. It's a bit convoluted but allows you to get high coverage percentages even if one policy sucks, but maybe your spouses is better.
@@Evan-iq5xf oh it’s definitely different for me. The US healthcare system is a price gouging dumpster fire.
It doesn't make sense. I wish there was more description of that payment but privacy, etc.
I do payroll for 200 employees. Only 6 of them have healthcare coverage and none certainly have enough savings for a surgery. If the Pdga doesn't increase coverage, it will force players who may get injured to sue the courses.
Suing a course in Norway doesn't work like it would work in US court case movies. You know Norway has 1km high cliffs where people can walk to and there's no railings. Yeah... if people aren't careful it's considered their own fault. However, PDGA should be held responsible of having a safe site, and PDGA could make a deal with the course about safety. However, I would say this is just accident and nobody's fault. People slip, accidents happen. That's why there's universal and (almost) free healthcare... in most of the Europe I mean. :D
I'm from Colorado so also very familiar with mountain courses consisting of high cliffs. Our mountains are about double the size of yours, so let's call your mountains, small hills
There are 100s of tournaments, worldwide every weekend. All which are covered by Pdga insurance. I wasn't talking about only tour events. If a player in a c-tier tournament gets severely injured, they won't be able to cover the bill and will be forced to use the course's insurance or file lawsuit to pay it. This causes courses to shut down.
Sounds like she could have sued the pro tour and the course owner. They are fortunate she didn't.
@@michaelmaniloff9297. She would have lost 10/10 times in a Norwegian court if she had sued the corse owner. A Norwegian court would have pointed it to be a risk of participating. The pdga on the other hand, maybe. In Norway we pay cheap “sports insurance” so like a 300kr for a season, so if you get injured while playing official tournaments your good.
we need our valuable input, good stuff as always!!!
Medical bills in this country are out of hand
Wonder why.
Thank Obamacare
Obama ensured that ALL Americans are forced to purchase health insurance whether they can afford it or not. Insurance companies can now charge whatever they want.
Yea, move to Finland. More disc golf and free health care. You pay something like 200-300 € for this type of surgery and rehabilitation. It's just that the season is only 6-8 months long.
@@darrindodson9876dumbass comment of the day goes to this genius
The Pros on tour should have a players union to keep players interests for sure. No other sport that I'm aware of offers this kind of coverage for events, so it's pretty great considering. I am an executive director for two non-profits, and I can tell you we always look for board members that have social equity that we can use to the benefit of the non-profit. It is how we exist.
pretty sure she makes enough to afford her own insurance. its up to you to understand how your own insurance works.
Most of us AM players are relying on our medical insurance from our employers to cover some or all of our medical expenses. This brings up a critical question for each of us - does it?
I’ll be checking mine later today for sure….
Paige, and every other touring professional should have their own coverage. And they need to know the limitations of the coverage. This was a massive oversight on Paige's part, not the PDGA. She makes more than enough money to afford good health insurance. She is a contract employee - the company SHOULD NOT be responsible for insurance coverage.
I wondered about this part. Even the biggest deductible plans are still like 10k, an $80 reimbursement doesn't make sense.
Teachers are contacted employees and we get insurance from our employers so you're thinking is off here. The problem isn't that Paige didn't have the courage or money to pay her bills. The problem is, what is it it had been you? A b-tier or lower player, trying to make a start in disc golf or even just doing torments for the fun of it does not have the personal insurance to cover the major medical bills they would have incurred. Could you have handled that burden. It would have bankrupted most people.
@@mylilbostons half the country is one injury away from being homeless
Big big ups on a tour union. If the corporations are getting richer the LEAST they can do is system wide healthcare coverage. Not just for the big names but for all pros.
hahaha, ROTFL... PDGA cannot even supply caddy books in a timely manner for their events.
Insurance in America is a sham. Corporate profits above all else. Form a Union. Unions have collective bargaining rights with healthcare providers, resulting in lower premiums and better benefits. The private sector have been subject to Crooked laws due to corporate lobbying. This has resulted in Americans paying the world's highest premiums and co pay cost. Pathetic really 😢
Unions, now, are a joke.
every industry is like that. housing, food, energy, transportation, etc
Every industry should unionize.
Unions... ROTFL another money grifting scam...
There's a lot of people in these comments that definitely don't understand insurance
I will take your word so I won't bother looking into the comments.
You could blame that on them or on the people who make insurance a shitshow: insurance providers and lawmakers.
People literally aren't supposed to understand how their insurance works, it is by design.
I would assume that normal travel insurance that I buy when I travel internationally wouldn't cover someone who is working for money...but there has to be insurance that players from the US can buy to cover their medical costs. If not or if it's too expensive then they shouldn't travel out of the country as it's too risky. Sucks, but that would be the responsible choice.
Normal travel insurance covers only expenses that happen in the foreign country and only the care that must be performed there. If she could be moved to US for the operation then the travel insurance will cover nothing but the initial cast and maybe extra services needed in plane. But can't one buy sports related insurances in US? Considering the risk, it should be cheap.
I am surprised that sponsors don't want to insure their assets...
Interesting question but they hold the purse over the player. Now life insurance I suspect they have with the sponsor the beneficiary. Most employers do that for valued employees.
you know how companies love to share
UNION ☑ YES
i have insurance with a 1500. deductible so i get it, when i stepped on a three inch big locust thorn this spring it cost me 800 $ with insurance , foot and lower leg swelled up big time , x-rays and 3 antibiotics later along with a week off work. Be careful out there.
Paige needs better insurance.
You gotta take care of your people. Especially if they're on the job making you money.
esp when theyre one of the biggest names in the sport. if it was most of the fpo nobody would even know
We will have no disc golf if the PDGA has to pay out on slips and falls and other injuries that come under the rubric of personal responsibility.
If the players want coverage for that kind of thing, they should pool together and get coverage in a group, which will lower their costs per month.
All of that said, it borders on criminality that a two or three hour surgery costs 73K. It should be maybe 5K max.
25000 should be plenty for a person to get help. its what the medical industry charges thats the actual problem.
I wonder how much PDGA’s health insurance policy has paid out the last 5 years and if the payout is less than or more than they have had to pay out in coverage. I wonder it would be better to just have an insurance fund if the max payout for a bill is too low to cover many health insurance claims.
In Paige’s case, wouldn’t the property owner also be liable? Could there have been some settlement there we don’t know about (I don’t think there would be a way to know for sure unless someone tells us)?
No. In Europe lawyers can't suck money for any stupid reason. She slipped. Others did not. How in the hell can you blame the property owner? That is why you have personal insurance. If it does not cover accidents abroad, you have the wrong insurance.
Release of Liability When You Set Foot on The Course
Out of all the 3 parties being the PDGA, the hospital and the Health insurance provider the PDGA looked out for her interest the most. That being said the insurance should have a higher limit than $25,000 dollars. This is why many countries especially industrialized countries have universal health insurance that’s covered by tax dollars.
we're too busy spending 1T a year on war
Shouldn't Discraft provide their A-team medical insurance? And if not, well, everyone else in this world either has an employer that provides insurance, they get their own or go without....
No they shouldn't. Players should get thier own insurance. Sponsors are not employers.
@@Holycow723 Oh, I agree 100%... but if you have a sponsor such as Discraft paying you a significant amount of money to endorse their products, the player could easily work insurance coverage into their contract. But no, no one should be responsible for it other than the player. A
most people cant afford it and even those that have it can be bankrupted by medical costs. the current system is only working to increase poverty
$78k+ is a lot, even by the standards of orthopedic surgeons.
I doubt she ended up paying the full bill, after explaining the insurance limits to the doctor.
And if she did, she likely could have had the procedure from any number of competent doctors for 1/2-1/3 of the surgery cost.
To me it sounds like the players are making a stand and the more people that stand up the more we will see a change for the people.
Professional sports need unions to represent the not only the players but in the end - the TD’s. Once that is completed - there will be clearly defined aspects of the game that are lacking in our sport right now. Standards and support will get out in place that benefit all. There is no other path open to our sport in the end. Paige has felt the pain and cost of the path the sport is on now. Others will sooner or later. My guess- at least another 2 to 5 years before this path is taken.
a non profit organization (Pdga) who would be audited and managed by another non profit organization (potential union) defending independent contractors (tour players)..... Yea bud how would that ever work.
Thankfully i dont live in the US and would have been covered in medical costs, rehab and loss of income
Always nice to hear from the socialists
I have a million dollars policy for liability and 5ktool/equipment insurance for about 900 a month... Why is it so expensive for the pdga again?
The kid that got shot at a PDGA event in KC, is driving around in a brand new corvette now......
It’s also unfortunate that other companies were going to charge PDGA more than double the price for poorer coverage.
doesnt sound believable to me. they just wanted to switch to ledgestone the whole time
Will there ever be a players union?
No. The Pdga is a non-profit organization. The players are independent contractors. No one is forcing the players to compete. Also the Pdga can't even afford to pay attorneys to fight Natalie Ryan? You think they can afford benefits, healthcare, and higher pay for players?
Had this happened to a Norwegian athlete the operation would cost almost nothing. Happy I live here and the government use my taxes for good healthcare.
Not sure how PDGA pays for insurance but it should be paid by many sources. Whom ever is making the most money out of the events should pay the most.
Any kind of insurance here in the U.S. is a scam to take as much money from people and then fight like hell to give nothing back. It needs a complete overhaul.
If the PDGA calls them employees then they could have workers comp coverage. Due to the fact of ‘while at work-even practice’ they would have coverage for such an injury. Provides medical and financial benefits. I suspect they are all 1099.
the pdga isn't their employer, it's the sanctioning body of the sport. the insurance shouldn't be their responsibility at all and be on the people their sponsors. Most of these kids need agents to lobby for these benefits before they are hired on as a sponsored player. That's why gannon had contract issues...he's a teenager trying to negotiate a contract with no practical experience on the matter.
wait, 80 dollars??? how is that even possible, did i hear thst correctly?
For one reason or another, the secondary insurance didn’t cover the bulk of the bill. Maybe some procedures weren’t included or were out of network. I can only speculate.
players union would be awesome, help younger pros not get taken advantage of.
Wouldn't it be nice if societies treated accidental injuries without fees, unless you choose to go to a private hospital?
Here in New Zealand, we have a "No Fault"-based Accident Compensation system. They are funded by income taxes, so that when an NZ resident is injured (for whatever reason) they receive free medical and health care, and 80% of their normal wage, while they recover. Overseas visitors still require insurance however, and Paige's lack of it, considering her income level ($500K p.a. base salary), is truly baffling, and quite irresponsible.
Isn't the owner of the property liable for injuries?
Because of 1 slip? Stop.
Why is the pro tour itself never the responsible party?
She slipped on a bridge… How’s that their fault
@@vargothrows Organized event on grounds that had slippery bridge. That's how they're kinda responsible. They should improve their insurance policy (and increase license fees).
@vargothrows why was she there again? Oh yeah, a pdga sanctioned event.
The comments on this video are crazy.
Is the average disc golf player really this uneducated and has this little understanding of how the world works? Holy shit
@@vargothrows Your answer explains how pro disc golf will never get taken seriously.
Professional disc golfers should have an insurance policy included with their main disc sponsorship. End of story, especially for touring pros. Also, as an athlete, I would make damn sure I had the absolute highest policy I could get for myself so that if I did get injured, I’d only be charged a copay not a percentage of the cost. Yes the policy could run up to $1000 per month, but it’s better than getting a $75000 bill from the hospital
Why the fuck should a sponsor cover a medical bill????
there's not that much money in disc golf.......they get sponsors for individual tournaments yea, but there's nothing nationally that brings more money in....until TV gets involved or ESPN featuring lead cards on sundays, there isn't enough money being brought in to support this. and NOBODY THAT PLAYS PRO DISC IS GOING TO BE ABLE TO AFFORD PAYING $1000 A MONTH OUT OF POCKET THAT'S ASSININE.
@@pigs6486 asset protection dipshit!
is it better if you dont get hurt for more than 6 years?
@@pigs6486 for one thing, disc craft wont be making money off of paige if she cant play
Yes, it's their fault she's clumsy. Unless the bridge cracked, she shouldn't have gotten a dime.
Paige’s personal health insurance only covered $80 dollars out of the 72 thousand dollar bill? What? It should be illegal to offer a policy that only covers $80.00 for an injury that the doctors recommended surgery for. Now maybe the insurance thought it was not necessary to have that surgery but that’s what the doctor recommended so the insurance should except that diagnosis unless the they it’s a scam.
yes insurance and medical care are scams
Seems like she might need to sue the course.
I don't really care what really happens to Paige I'm surprised she's not suing them I'm pretty sure she's not hurting for money I'm pretty sure she's smart enough to ensure yourself just in case she gets hurt Lake Lodge of London
What typew of insurance did Paige have that reimbursed her for $80 dollars? She needs to go insurance shopping.
You sign a waiver before every tournament just so you can't sue.
that waiver wont stop a lawsuit.
really? i've played hundreds and never signed any waiver
Just another example of disc golf getting too big too quickly and some companies are taking full advantage. I’m looking at you DGPT! What a joke that they have no coverage for their so called athletes. What does Jeff Springs paycheck look like?
Welcome to the real world.
union is the only way!!!
Paige must be on Obama Care!
a lawyer telling us to trust an insurance salesman
They are people. They are not automatically the incarnation of the stereotype. I don’t remember him saying “you should trust Nic” he just gave an analysis of the legality of the procedure with an inconclusive result due to lack of research. In Nic’s case it looks like he was working to follow the law and that he provided significant value to the PDGA. Both look good to me.
Almost any pro athlete has 50 k in the bank😂 What are you talking about Chris?
do pro disc golfers count? i would think only a few of the men and 2 of the women have 50k laying around unless they come from rich families, which i suspect is often the case. how else do these players that barely cash drive around the country in an rv?
As a professional athlete, under contract with a major manufacturer, it is unfathomable that any personal injury would not be covered by insurance. THE PDGA IS A COMPLETE FAILURE AND MUST BE REPLACED (.)
Then manufacturer should pay full medical bill, not PDGA.
@@terot8341they aren't employees. They are athletes with small royalty deals.
People should have their own healthcare policy. Paige is ridiculous not to have proper insurance. Obamacare gives people no excuse not to have health insurance.
Poor PP....I Owe I Owe.... Disc Golf Sponsorship Here We Go
Such a Drag When All You Do Is Rag
Lucky PP got The 25k PPI is a standard policy amount
PP can sue in Civil Court to Re Coop any and all financial losses ... she should to set precedent for future injured Players or Spectators
Paige is the root of all evil in Fpo
Sounds like she doesn't have insurance. If she has to pay out of pocket. Thats the life of a subcontractor. She needs to get her own insurance. Its called rolling the dice, nothing will ever happen to you .
She did have insurance. It literally says so in the video. They just didn’t cover the injury.
@@selfawarepotassium So $78k for surgery, PDGA paid $25k, sounds like she has crappie insurance they paid out $80 . So she is stuck with the left over. Saw a post PP said she was jumping over a fence. So not sure we're slipped on a bridge came from. She had insurance but sounds like not very good, the whole you pay to what insurance pays. So like they say if you want the truth ask the person. Know we both know the facts.
@@michaelr1397yeah she said she had bad insurance. She also said it was her fault for not doing enough due diligence.
It was never in question how she hurt her ankle. It was on a slippery bridge. Internet dweebs on the internet are the ones that fabricated that narrative.
Where is the analysis of the fine print in the contract? C'mon Chris, we enjoy watching your sleuth attorney skills. With regard to the insurance policy, if the limit is $25,000, why bother with insurance? Surely the PDGA has $25k in the bank. The PDGA should self insure. In general, insurance is a racket. Most insurance companies take 25 percent or more of the paid premium to cover salaries and expenses. Seriously.... self insure.
they got insurance from the board members former employer. does that sound like a racket?
Good Ole muricsn freedom
dont forget about illiteracy
Health Finance Manager here, I can help clear a few things up. Paige did not pay ~$50K for her surgery. She was likely sent a bill amounting to a few hundred dollars, if that. Her insurance would likely have paid a tiny fraction of the total, perhaps only a few dollars. The largest actual payment would have been made from the third-party insurance, in this case, the PDGA insurance. Who gets the bill for the other ~$50K? No one. The hospital where her surgery was performed absorbs the cost. That is because the hospital is able to write off the full amount of this loss as tax deductions. In the end, taxpayers paid for it.
Heinhold prob gonna get commission on the future payments. Just forgoe the initial bonus.
ya or he'll go back to ledgestone and get a fat board member check. i dont trust the lawyer telling us to trust an insurance salesman for a second
dont mention unions.. we might not hear from Paige anymore...
Its nice to see heinold doing something positive for a change. Im glad hes no longer hung up on chasing legally dubious culture war nonsense
so drafting a shady deal with his former employer is positive and protecting the womens division is legally dubious?
Sounds like Paige needs some education on how to buy good health insurance. There is no excuse for a professional athlete to not cover themselves for situations like this. Controversy does seem to follow Paige where ever she goes though.
Riiiight. A dg pro can easily afford thousands of dollars per month for a medical insurance premium. You sound like someone that doesn’t buy his own insurance.
I don’t see how this is even a little controversial.
Does your healthcare cover injuries in Europe Ron? You most likely have a $7500 deductible with 30% co-insurance IN NETWORK in the USA. You think they'll pay a dime for you internationally?
@@vJackaRooYour wrong I pay for my insurance. What do you think all the self employed people do for insurance?
@@InbredJed82060Sorry you are wrong.
Play at your own risk.
That’s not how any other professional sport works. Even amateur sport in my country is covered. We should be bringing Disc Golf up to the expected standard.
Can you afford a $75k surgery? Do you still play?
@@selfawarepotassium We?
@@Flint_Hyzermaticyep we all have to play a part to make positive change.
@@Flint_Hyzermatic ya you got a turd in your pocket
Moral of the story... dont pay for medical insurance. If they only pay a fraction of a month's insurance cost to the customer, wtf are you even paying for?
hahahaha. Good luck with that one.
Certainly, if a players union forms, the future of the sport is doomed.
Can't hurt yourself and definitely cant go to the doctor. Thanks Obama.
If there's any intelligence at all they'll start a union
78 grand for surgery? America is a complete joke
If you're a McDonalds employee - sure. It's not the US - it's insurance in general. And insurance is a fraud in all countries.
a snake bite is even more
What 3rd world country is Paige from that they don’t have government/tax payer funded healthcare that’s free at the point of use?
Why should the pdga be responsible for insurance? First, get a real job. Throwing Frisbees is not one unless you are mcbeth, lizzotte or, tarter sauce. That is going away as well. Frolf will always be frolf, regardless how much ya'll want to make a sport of it
I'm sick of this mindset, that because she slipped and got injured someone owes her money. Sometimes "shit happens". Was it the property owner's or PDGA's fault that she got injured crossing a bridge that THOUSANDS of other people were able to cross without incident?
Yes. Because when they assume the liability of covering an event with insurance you are forced to have that we all pay for with our membership, they bare the responsibility of paying for it.
They assume the liability of making sure the course is safe. They assume player safety.
That's what the insurance is for. Otherwise what benefit do we get from them?
"shit happens" is the exact and sole purpose of insurance. think again
@@stuartautr3441 Wrong. PDGA or course owner is not responsible for injuries caused by slipping, or i.e tripping to tree branch.
Yeah, personal responsibility has flown out the door. Disc golf should be played on a level plain with cushioned ground and no bridges, water or trees.
The real problem is the horrific profiteering, on all levels, of the American health care system. Sorry, my opinion.
Is Heinhold jewish?
Talking like a lawyer, bending the truth to make a desired point. Dissregarding honesty and facts doesnt make a good case. When the news came out it was said that the accident happened when paige played catch in a field near her accomodation not the pcs dgpark. The bridge you talk about was wet loggs over some wetland. So it was not on pdga training, not on pdga dgpark, not playing discgolf but friendly frisbee catch. I was at PCS Aalesund to see the elite dg players and followed news closely.
Yep, and she's pity party everyone to get more money.
why didn't heinold take the $15k and give it to Paige? oh because he kept it and then lied about not keeping it! guy is disgusting
Have you even met, or do you even know the guy 😂. Seems like you're just jealous of successful people and believe they are evil.
@@InbredJed82060 not all successful people, but def former insurance employees that make shady deals with their former companies. not jealous tho. i wouldnt sell my soul for money
@InbredJed82060 I tend to not have people like him in my circle.. he's leading the pdga into ruin and halt about it. so no thanks