If you'd like to join a community of writers where you can exchange ideas as well as talk about recent movies and shows, join my discord community: discord.com/invite/aJpYPQX I'm super active there, and have a dedicated channel for questions from you guys. If you want my input on anything, that's the place to reach out to me. Keep writing, - Henry
I had to stop after the first minute and twenty seconds and I caught onto how to write a hateable villain. (Still listening to the video as I write this) They have to express their flaws openly whether it be in their own treatment of others based from their insecurities that is the quintessential rule of thumb to follow. Even genuinely good people can be or do hateable things because they are written inherently as human beings especially if their flaw betrays their otherwise good nature/qualities. Studying people even people you know in real life is one great way to be able to write not only hateable villians but heroes as well. Harlan Ellison had told a story about author L Spraugh Decamp attending a writers get-together and hung around in the background with a pen and notepad and was writing down things most of the night and when Harlan said the other writers were asking what was Decamp jotting down they saw that he was writing down all of the funny things the other writers would say because he wanted to know how humor worked and Harlan stated that Decamp wrote some hilarious stories. There's probably many ways to become a great author but one things for certain doing your homework and understanding people helps tremendously.
The reason people hate her is that we ALL know someone like her, teacher or otherwise. She reminded me SO MUCH of a substitute teacher we had in elementary school. She had her favorites, and I was not one of them. It seemed like everything you did wasn't enough for her. I know I'm not the only one who hoped we never got her again, but she just kept coming back.
I think, at least for Umbridge, what makes her so hatable is the fact that she (a) gets away with her awful behavior, and (b) is so damn smug about it. The hate comes from a place of being unable to fight back, and on top of that, having it rubbed in our faces
Yeah, hard agree. Usually I like people who make rules (as they’re usually required) but what she’s doing is draconian! And she’s so proud about it, reminds me of my old teacher I guess lmao
Interestingly, the only time I felt hatred towards Voldemort was when he started acting through the ministry in the Deathly Hallows. It's definitely the helplessness, which is kind of what Henry was saying with the Citizen thing. External threats are much simpler to deal with.
exactly yes...and many of us have had that kind of abusvive teachers aswell , its the most scary and powerless feeling ever as a child , mine thankfyully finally got fired cause all her abuse came out...there were too many students she abused, dont get me wrong,,,,I got really good a chemistry but I got good at chemistry with abuse and because I was soo damn scared everyday
She is pure, undistilled Karen energy of abusing the system, bolstered her deep belief that she is the only one in the right! She doesn't even fathom the possibility that she IS wrong. The smugness and pink fussiness is great!
I have a different, simpler theory. I read once someone saying "if a dragon refuses to fight, maybe it's just tired, but if it ignores a mosquito, then he is fast asleep". Yeah, what's the most hated animal of all, the one that everyone wants extinct? Not the shark, not the crocodile, not the lion, not even a venomous snake or some other animal that's perceived as a terrible danger, no.... it's the mosquito. And I'm not talking just of the dangerous Anophele, but also our innocuous european mosquitoes, that merely give you a scratch. They are so detestable. Danger is not the reason, as they are not perceived as dangerous and in many cases the are not. So why are they so detestable? They keep pestering you. They are small, they are insigficant, they are stupid, clearly "inferior"... and yet they keep pestering you, they keep biting you, they just won't stop. You often slap your own face trying to hit them, they won't let you sleep in peace, they resist to every attempt at freeing your life of their annoyance, they even buzz in your ears, as if it wasn't enough to bite you, they must also telegraph that they are going to bite you. Why do we hate them so much? Because they are *frustrating* . They are worth nothing, they are small, stupid, and yet they keep winning, and again, we will never be free of them, and they will keep buzzin in our ears as if making fun of us. I personally tested this theory by creating a "mosquito" villain in one of my novels: I made her persistent, almost indestructible, clearly not very intelligent or at least not in a human way: she just kept popping up and flaunting her invulnerability to the heroes while making their life a nightmare. It worked, I had exactly the reaction that I wanted: more than one beta told me that they just couldn't stand her, that it was such a satisfaction to finally see her destroyed. I think I'm on to something.
Yea i see it the same way with like.. hating an annoying manager. There's nothing you can do about them, and that's frustrating. They wouldn't be so hatable if you could get rid of them, but you can't, you're just forced to put up with it. The whole citizen thing is just an overexplanation.
@@HuugTuub exactly. With an evil overlord, at least you'll have that cathartic final battle, your armies will fight to the last soldier, maybe you will challenge him with a sword, or you'll cast spectacular spells, that's going to be satisfying and entertaining, there will be glory, it will be epic. But with the annoying manager... that's not gonna happen. Best case scenario, you find another job, or they fnd another job, and you don't meet again. That's all there is to it. Interestingly, perhaps the most hated of all the villains in the category is literally an annoying manager: nurse Ratched.
@@Twiddle_things maybe it's just me, but personally, I find Wheatley the littlest bit sympathetic. He is a moron, but he was literally built to be a moron and at all times he is reminded of his inadequacy. It must be painful to feel inadequate all the time, to never get one thing right, you end up developing some complexes. Also, he is very funny, it's hard to hate someone that makes you laugh 😆
Yes! It's the unfair power given to otherwise weak characters what makes the situation so frustrating. Like, you know if Umbridge didn't have the Ministry behind her she'd wouldn't dare be like that. Or if Joffrey weren't king or had any social status, nobody would've put up with his crap. It's the shield of burocratic power given to the pettiest person.
I've always felt the reason we hate these types of villains is the inverse of why we love "noble" villains-it's not what the villain does that makes us love or hate them, it's whether their evil comes from a place of weakness/insecurity vs. conviction. People hate Joffrey not just because he's sadistic, but because he's a weak boy who acts like a tyrant to make himself appear strong. On the other hand, a character like Thanos kills trillions of people, but people like his character because he acts from a position of strong ideological conviction-he isn't doing it to make himself appear strong, he already knows he's strong. He does it because he sees a goal beyond himself that he wishes to strive for, and there's something we admire in that, even if we don't agree with the goal itself. It's the same reason we hate Joffrey, because we despise weakness masquerading as strength.
And Thanos also goes on a journey of improving his strength for the task ahead. We see him go through 'trials' like a hero would, which is why a lot of people see Infinity War as Thanos's movie and not the Avengers'.
I think it's because societal villains can't simply be defeated in the same way that monster villains can. If you have the opportunity to kill the Night King, you can take it without worrying about consequences. Harry physically could have beat up Umbridge at any time, but he socially isn't allowed to.
@@charlesevanshughes3638 it’s always the same type of characters that are societal villains in the same type of characters that are monster villains, and people only root and humanize villains, regardless, if they are monster or societal, only if they relate to them and can’t handle that villain and being wrong, but demonize other villains, they can’t relate to
"When you close the book, you know full well the ghosts, demons and man-eating monsters are well sealed inside the book; the narcissists, abusers of power, and believers of 'screw-you-got-mine' however are always there right outside your room."
"The point of the story isn't to tell children that evil is real or that monsters exists; they already know that. The point is to teach them that the tyrant can be overthrown, the dragon can be slain, evil can be defeated."
the "Monster" villains are the goals of a story, the truly hateable villains are the seemingly unnecessary hurdles between the protagonist and those goals
@@thornels this is why I loved Cassandra Nova in Deadpool and Wolverine. The movie is filled with problems and the villain is severely underdeveloped and didn’t get enough screentime, BUT I loved how evil and unhinged she was, for Deadpool and Wolverine, a movie about some of Marvel’s biggest anti heroes, I think the villain needs to be pure evil, threatening, dangerous, despicable
Imagine if an asteroid big enough to cause an extinction event was on a collision course to Earth, and you had groups trying to impede every opportunity and every possibility to stop that asteroid, or at least mitigate its negative effects(by moving to space or underground or something). The big bad guys often feel more similar to "forces of nature" than to human beings that you can talk to.
I think a really easy cheat code to make your villain hateable is to make them a coward. There's just something about cowardly villains that make us hate them even more.
@krislyons2793 gets boring and repetitive after a while, how about villains that are hateable that aren’t cowardly, we need all types of hateable villains ones audiences can relate to, and ones they can’t relate to, some they get redeemed some that don’t
Final villain of practical guide to evil is a ultimate coward and soo much more terrifying because of that. Also hetable given extend he will go to for his cowardnes
I think the best way to write a hateable villain is to get the audience to feel a sense of injustice. Many hateable villains cause the protagonists to deal with issues we would not connect with, but we can connect with the feeling of injustice. While I never had a teacher torture me like Umbridge, I've had a teacher punish me and the rest of the class for the behavior of few of the students. Injustice is everywhere and is very relatable, even if we haven't experienced a specific injustice. We see it on the news, and a lot of the time, we are powerless to do anything about it, only able to hate the people who caused it
A politician always makes for a great villain because the stuff they do is grossly unfair. As an IRL example, i saw the governor of california being mad at a parody post and saying he would "sign a bill to make it illegal" i think we can all agree politicians making stupid laws to serve their own self interest is pretty damn infuriating.
I was about to write the exact same comment, I think that "sadistic" advice actually has its roots on the feeling of injustice. Which is a strong throughline between Umbridge, Joffrey and Denethor for example. They all are unfair in their actions and in their judgements.
This is it. I was waiting the whole video for him to say that it was just a sense of injustice and powelessness to stop it. He overcomplicated the answer.
before you said they're relatable, the main common trait i found between the hateable villains is that they're all traitors to the main characters. they are all in positions where they SHOULD be helpful, and they are given every chance, but they refuse every time. they betray the characters' trust
This is something I've been thinking about. Umbridge doesn't present herself as a dark witch or even as a harsh tyrant. She wants to be seen as a kindly aunt who unfortunately has to be strict sometimes for the greater good. She would really much rather enjoy a nice cup of sugary tea, but the wretched children simply will not behave and submit to good order! Excessive sweetness is more sickening than bitterness. Poison can be thrown away; cake with too much icing makes me think, "But for this, you could have been delicious", and that betrayal is far worse.
Hmm interesting. I guess that there IS a general sense of betrayal when a person expected to act a certain way just... Doesn't, but it's almost *too* general, I think. Like... It comes from the societal ideals/expectations of what you are supposed to be and represent in your capacity in X/Y/Z role, but NOT from the idea of who you actually are, as a person. Betraying the Heroes directly, in a very VERY personal manner, like Peter Pettigrew did in Harry Potter (selling the Potters out to Voldemort AND pinning the whole thing on one of his best friends was particularly egregious), makes one instantly awful, like, 99.99% of the time, I agree, but you cannot tell me that anyone had expected any good to come out of Umbridge showing up on the scene. Like... I don't know if I'm saying it the best, but there's a reason why they say that the saddest thing about betrayal is that it never comes from your enemies; Umbridge didn't lose our Heroes' genuine trust in her, because she simply never had it in the first place. The MOST she had were reluctant expectations stemming from the *position(s)* she held, and not from HER, as a person, which, again, is very 'low' on the totem pole of betrayal (what you are supposed to be and represent vs who you actually are, as a person. Personal >>>> General). I can't easily think of any other 'Citizen'-like villain that actively had the Heroes' genuine trust in them, either. It doesn't seem to be very common at all, from what I've seen, at least.
@@didi8360 I don't think they're necessarily talking about direct betrayal of the characters and more of the betrayal of our expectations and of their position of power or trust. For example in Umbridge's case, a teacher should care for her students, and it triggers a sense of injustice in us when she doesn't. As another comment pointed out these characters aren't the real villains of their stories, but they do go out of their way to make it harder of the other characters when they should be helping them. Again for Umbridge, instead of helping her students prepare for the oncoming threat she stays wilfully ignorant, and physically and verbally abuses her students 'for their own good'. Often times there is an aspect of abuse of power in these villains, they can't just not help the heroes, they have to actively hinder them when logic dictates that they should be helping. Not sure if this applies to all hateable villains, but I think it defiantly applies to Umbridge, As its not just that she's a teacher, she's also an adult using her position of power to hurt children, and I think that more than anything is a betrayal of a sort
This is a legit observation. Umbrage is a teacher, who should care about her students, Geoffrey is king who should care about his people and the green mile prison guard should in theory care about his charges. But who can hate Homelander? He’s a villain we love to see betray everything he’s supposed to stand for.
Another trait of hateable villains that I don't think was touched on is that they don't have to do this. They're often confronted in some way with their awful acts and instead of recognizing what they're doing, they just escalate. They don't need to be doing this. The story would still happen without them doing this. They've been presented with an alternative that would make everything better. They're not dark lords with overwhelming villainy. They're people who've willingly decided to make everyone's day that little bit worse.
I think one the most hateable villains in television is Mister Daniel Lumis from the 1960s revival of Dragnet. He doesn't get much screen time, but when he's confronted by Friday and Gannon, he goes off on this spiel of why he committed burglary and bigamy. Oh, and the story is true---it's just the names were changed.
I would offer Baldur from God Of War 2018 as a counterpoint. He doesn't have to do all the evil he does but he's a compelling and intriguing character nonetheless
@@romanticmonkey Wrong, he has to. His pressure comes from the inside rather than the outside, but he absolutely has intense pressure driving all his actions.
@@anjafrohlich1170 then in that case every villain "has to" do the evil they commit and no such villain as the original commenter talks about would exist
It annoys me how much redeemable villains are used nowadays. Sure it doesn't have to be "evil evil mwahaha" but nothing's wrong with someone being born evil or irredeemable. You can even have them be broken by events of the past to still be tragic but they don't have to be redeemable.
It's just the usual cycle in film. Just like how certain genres become all the rage for a bit before it switches, same with the types of heroes and villains as well.
@RyanTheDark I really cant stand people, critics, and audiences, who say that every single villain needs to have a understandable, rational, “depth” , layers, complexity, and believable motives, be sympathetic and complex and ambiguous, and redeemable in order to be realistic, and a compelling character/villain, otherwise according to people who have these demands, and in every single story where their expectations aren’t met and a villain is pure evil and irredeemable, they say that those villains are badly and terribly written, generic, boring, one dimensional, bland, uninteresting, unrealistic, and cartoonish/childish; , and according to them, every single character needs to be three dimensional in order to be good, interesting, “human”, “realistic”, compelling, redeemable, ambiguous, and the only way to be accessible and interesting for “mature adults”. ^ WHEN LITERALLY HATABLE VILLAINS EXISTS AND PROVES ALL OF THAT IS BULLSHIT and I’ve have seen these same people, fans, and audiences preach these demands about needing villains to be , sympathetic , realistic and three dimensional, infantilize other people for liking pure evil characters because they arent “nuanced”, and therefore they deem anyone who wants “one dimensional” characters/villains has boring taste.
Yeah it seems that too many people wants redeemable villains without realizing that redemption is not as easy or even achievable in real life. Some people are just evil, complex maybe, but evil nonetheless, and worse of all, some don't even want redemption because they think they are in the right. And that's far more common than "evil character that turns good in the end"
Another important distinction to bring up is the difference between hatred and fear. Good villains usually focus on instilling one of these two emotions in the reader and don't try to do both at once. Main villains like Sauron or Voldemort usually try to maximize fear. If you want your villain to be maximally hateable, you should ensure that the reader doesn't fear the villain, because fear distracts you from hatred. The reader will only feel the urge to punch the villain in the face, if the reader does not feel the urge to run away.
I don’t think we hate someone because they represent something we hate about ourselves at all. We hate them because they give into the evil things we all put work into not doing. They represent what we never want to be and actively avoid being.
The fact that it takes conscious effort to actively avoid giving in, means that the capacity for evil lives inside you and it _would_ act out if you allowed it. If you hate people who give in to their vices, then you must hate that part of yourself that also _wants_ to give in. It's just as evil at heart, only less free to act out its impulses because you've restrained it. Your restraint is motivated by fear and contempt of that offending part (i.e. hate) just as you feel fear and contempt toward outside evils that ought to be restrained. Now, there are some evil impulses that don't seem to be a universal part of human experience and may not live inside you. When you encounter those evils, you're more likely to first experience confusion before hate. You would question, "How is it possible someone could do this?" because the thought of doing it would not have entered your mind in the first place. In this case, I would agree that the hate you feel is toward something entirely outside yourself. (Or at least a very well hidden part of yourself that has never been activated before.) But if you're constantly at war with yourself to prevent those evil impulses from winning, then yeah, you have to carry a degree of self-hatred in order to keep yourself in check. That's just how it works, in Jungian theory.
A long time ago, I watched a video about why Umbridge is more hatable than Voldemort, and at the end the guy offered a rewrite that made Voldemort just as hatable. He added a scene where V wipes Hermione's memories of all magic she's ever learned, because half bloods don't deserve magic.
Hermione is muggleborn - she has no magical ancestry, she herself just happened to have magic. Harry is the half-blood in the trio, his mother is muggleborn. Ron is a pureblood.
Alien, predator, sauron, the night king, Voldemort... They are within their respectable nature. They are bad, evil, or hunters and so act accordingly. We dont hate wolves for hunting game even if we are the game. We just try to survive. I dont even know if this totally incapaulates what im trying to convey but its what i was thinking throughout the video
Sauron firmly believes himself to be doing good though. His mentor Morgoth may have been nihilistic and wants to break everything to prevent others from enjoying them, but Sauron is imposing his own vision of order and coordination on Middle Earth, which he believes is good for its people in the same way a carpenter believes having four legs of equal length is good for a table (and it's the wood's problem if some of it has to be shaved off, not his).
I do think there is more nuance with Voldemort in the books though. He was a psychopathic pureblood fanatic. What made Voldemort so dangerous wasn't just his power but the ideology behind him that brought out a lot of evil in others. The damage that he did on a more personal level pitted families against each other. In a way he wasn't just a force of nature but a poison.
I think the forces of nature analogy works here. They are consumed by evil they're just fulfilling their role. I feel the citizen villains seem to have a choice and as such could have chosen to be good and didn't
@@kellharris2491 He also unfortunately lacks a presence in the books to everyone BUT Harry. We usually only hear him/encounter some form of him at the end - whereas people like Rita Skeeter, Dolores Umbridge, Snape and Malfoy are interspersed in the chapters frequently and/or heavily so we're bombarded with their nastiness on an almost constant basis. For every part of the individual HP books that Voldemort has attempted to harm someone, we read about Umbridge punishing students/Snape being cruel/Malfoy being a git 20x more.
@@TheCloserLookjust wanna say that you’ve helped me a lot with writing and I’m looking forward to what you’re gonna put out… nothing to do with the comment I just wanna express my gratitude.
I think such types of villains are often also the opposite to what they are supposed to be. For instance, Umbridge is the opposite of a good teacher (punishing, condescending, closed minded, etc.), joffrey the opposite of a good king (impulsive, abbusive, childish, etc.), denethor is the opposite of a good steward (cowardly, uncaring, unwilling to relinquish control to the rightful authority, etc.), Beni is the opposite of a good soldier (disloyal, motivated by greed not moral conviction, exploiting those under his protection rather than defending them), etc.. Having goals opposed to the hero is very important (otherwise they would not be an antagonist) but I think breaking the social contract by incorrectly fullfilling their societal role is crucial to tapping into that everyday hatred which is approached with the (far too) aspecific advice of 'tap into real experiences'. You may not have experienced a teacher like umbridge yourself but everybody regularily experiences the little frustration of people not doing what (you think) they are supposed to do.
I think Peter Pettigrew is a good example of how you can have a villain that is hateable by even the other villains. His cowardice, insecurity, and greed not only get in the way of the protagonist, but also the antagonist. His goals truly align only with himself.
I hadn’t fully made that connection before, but it makes a lot of sense that the most hated characters are ones who have broken their implicit social contracts to the detriment of their group, e.g. Benny abandoning his fellow soldiers to save himself, Umbrage abusing her power over students while refusing to do her actual job (and also being a toady for a government that was also abusing its power over the school-Umbrage is just a walking conglomeration of broken social contracts), etc. They betray their commitments and responsibilities in ways that significantly hurt the people around them. A dark lord or a literal monster or Joker-type villain has no implicit social contracts; they’re explicitly outside the normal social structures. We have no expectations of loyalty, assistance, or benevolence from them based on their position, so they don’t evoke the same feeling of betrayal and scandal that the “citizen” villains can.
I notice as well that the "monster"/"citizen" argument has been used as deconstructions against the titular character and Tighten from Megamind. In the case of the former, he is essentially a faux-monster. He's never malicious or wishes to hurt anyone (he even says so in his eulogy to Metro-Man when he blows up the museum), but he's just "evil" for the fun of it. By contrast, someone like Tighten is not only reminiscent of people you can meet or have met in real life, but the minute he gets powers, he actively becomes a legitimate threat to the city in a way people's lives could actually be hurt. In a way, he's not too dissimilar to characters like Umbridge, Percy, Joffrey, etc. if they were given Tighten's powers. I think Cinema Therapy's video on Megamind explained it better than I ever could, but you get the idea.
I think a big thing about the Umbridge and Tomato guy type villains is that they aren't exactly aligned with the true villain, but they are instead somewhere in the middle, but the important thing is that they are actively trying to counter the heroes' efforts to defeat the villain. We hate Voldemort and Sauron in a passive sense that makes us root for the heroes to defeat them, but we don't actively despise them, because they are making us cheer for the heroes. Umbridge and Denethor are bringing the good guys down in a way that is infuriating and makes us actively hateful. Watching them hinder the good guys evokes a boiling sense of frustration: someone is trying to save you and everyone else from a terrible evil, and you are trying to stop it for whatever selfish reasons. I'd daresay this can reach into real world territory where we often see people trying to address problems in the world, and others combat their efforts for no reason other than politics and power. I think someone with no urge to prevent an overt threat to the whole world actively fighting against those who do have the will to fight back is one of the most frustrating images I can put together in my mind, and I think these villain archetypes work best in stories like LOTR and Harry Potter because they synergize with the pure evil villain archetype.
Yeah like those people who fight against the use of gmo's. It's actively making people's life's better the better the GMO's are, yet people destroy research and hate it
For me it's about contrast. Horrible monsters in a fantasy forest are less scary than in a real-world closet. Darth Vader is sadistic, he kills people, destroys things, but few people really hate him. Umbridge doesn't do all that bad of stuff, but it's the reality of those things that get on our nerves. Umbridge isn't a villain, she's a teacher. She's supposed to be good-natured. Vader is clearly a villain, it's what we expect. Umbridge is contextually a lot closer to people we've experienced dealing with. It's closer to our hearts.
Yup. So many of us have encountered some form of Dolores Umbridge in our lives: be it abusive parents or parental figures, teachers, persons of authority, bosses. I've even had co-workers who were like Umbridge: holier-than-thou narcissists who think bureaucracy = good and find some sense of arrogance on being right all the time. Like, shut the f up Janet. I've rarely, if at all, encountered people like Voldemort and/or Vader.
I think there’s one common trait for any hateable character - they do not live up to our (the viewers’) expectations or hopes. Denethor COULD be a good father, or at least redeemable… but he falls short of this. Joffrey COuLD use his power for good… but refuses to. Bennie COULD help the group evade/defeat the mummy, or show a semblance of common decency, but he can’t quite do it… If you want a character to be hateable, simply have them ‘let the viewer down’ in some way
This might be your best video. You perfectly NAILED the most hateable villains, and gave compelling explanations for why they’re so hated. And as the cherry on top you finish with pro writing aid. I’ve never considered a grammarly type software for myself because frankly I’m smarter than most of them and i find them more frustrating than useful. But this one looks absolutely essential. I’ll have to check it out asap. Thank you for a fantastic video!
Thanks for the high praise! And prowritingaid is the first company I actually reached out to instead of them to me, because I've used them for a while now. They've never actually sponsored anyone before. This is their first time.
I think another reason a character can be hateable is when they are clearly despicable people and yet there are never any ramifications for their actions. Benny sucked because he constantly screwed people over but never was punished for it until the end. Which is why it's so cathardic when they finally do get punished in the end.
yeah to me probably the most hateable villain in all of media is count olaf from a series of unfortunate events, and even though bad things happen to him sometimes it feels like he never really faces true justice for everything he puts the protagonists through
This is an appeal to justice. The audience cares about justice. They care more every time it gets subverted. The real trick is to bother, hinder, hurt or harass something the audience holds dear… and the technique you mentioned is a clever way to make the audience more invested in the sense of justice which increases their emotional response to injustice.
Good video, also Sauron's character flaw is hubris. It allows Isildor the opportunity to remove his hand at the beginning of the movies and it causes him to ignore Frodo and Sam because he is too confident that he knows that Aragorn has the Ring at the end of them.
Man, every time you put out a video I think it’s your best one. And then I watch a previous video and realize that they’re all spectacular rewatches too. Keep up the great work!
I think an interesting connection between all of these villains is that many of them hold a position of 'power' over the characters we are rooting for, and are kept out of reach from learning their lesson; even Percy. Umbridge is untouchable, Beni is protected...
I think one thing common with villains I hate is incompetence. Like... If you're gonna be a villain, be good at it. It's just so cringe-worthy if a villain's goals are so counterintuitive to their actions and personality. Cowardice, ignorance, childishness, lack of self-awareness, all lead to incompetence.
What makes an Antagonist scary is making them the farthest from human, while still being human. What makes one hatable is making them have a position in life you dont think they deserve. Have them exploit that position in the most relatable ways being the perfect scapegoat.
Well you don’t need to make them “while still being human” AT ALL to be scary for an antagonist to be scary and effective as a compelling villain or antagonist but yeah everything else I agree with!
An idea. The strongest negative emotion you can experience is the feeling of unfairnes. If someone is is acting unjust to you or someone else. It can mean using their power to punch someone smaller and take their lunch or punishing a made up "sin". I feel like the emotion is the core and you can get there in many way. You may fear the Alien, Voldemort or tornado, but thats all.
I do think the actor has a lot to do with it also. Like some actors are just great all making you hate them, whether it be because of how they act, or the way they look or behave.
@@officialmonarchmusic I'm still impressed at how Imelda managed to capture the "toadiness" of Umbridge. You look at the film version of Umbridge and you just immediately want to sucker punch her in the face on instinct. And then cut to The Crown where Staunton plays an elderly Queen Elizabeth II and immediately I don't see Umbridge at all.
@@cainyourkidsIt takes real talent to make your character feel “toady” even though YOU don’t look like a toad. She doesn’t at all look like her book description but she nails it so hard to the point where she was physically ill in between scenes because even she despised her character. And yet, as you say, she transformed
I think what makes a person so despised as a villain also relates to the frequency and proximity to our protagonists. Sauron is the greatest threat to all, but from such an unfathomable distance that its imperceptible until his army is at the front door. Denethor is within the same walls as some of our protagonist and a constant immediate and relentless obstacle. You can apply that as well to other villains, King Joffrey vs Night King, Benny vs the Mummy, Professor Umbridge vs Voldemort. They become obstacles or antagonists far sooner and in closer proximity for our antagonists before the real evil comes knocking. Even take a look Far Cry 3, Vaas vs Hoyt. You hate Vaas far more than Hoyt despite it all being the decisions from Hoyt himself for why people are being trafficked or killed. Its also why a lot of the other villains within Far Cry hasnt hit as hard as Vaas. We are introduced to the "Main Villain" at the start but rarely have contact with them making the constant threat seem at such a distance that I dont actually care about Anton Castillo, Pagan Min, Joseph Seed had other villains in his followers but they kind of became a routine rather than a constant threat. Well never get another Vaas, because the story telling emphasizing villains in ubisoft is that they need to be great big bad villains that you can keep interacting with rather than a constant thorn in your side poking and prodding you at every turn.
Well one of the key reasons is that Jack Horner is trying to MOCK sympathetic villains and fully revel in being a pure evil villain in a very cartoonishly entertaining way that makes the audience love him because of just how much fun he is to watch.
I think the answer to its core is just make the characters and the audience feel a sense of injustice and a powerlessness to stop it. Thats it. You can then add flavour by making the villain relish and flaunt their position of power and mocking other for their innability to stop them.
I always thought that hateable characters were the ones who were evil in ways that were socially permissible. Like, they suck, but the characters in the story have no real course of action to fight back. In stories this manifests as living in a world where the hateable characters' actions are not the type which get punished (at least not explicitly for the character traits which are hateable).
A further point that might be interesting to look at: How much 'personal power' does the 'citizen villain' have (as opposed to power invested by institutions, society, etc.)? Because I have the sneaking suspicion that one thing that reliably creates a very hateable villain is not having a satisfying answer to the question "Why THEM? Why do I/we have to suffer THEM in particular?" For the 'monster villains', this is typically answered by their 'personal power' in some form. You have to suffer Voldemort because he is powerfull enough to inflict violence on you as he pleases (until stopped by the heroe at great effort). But Umbridge? She was just put into a position of authority by someone at least as incompetent than herself. Sauron is basically a fallen god and his armies follow him because he is strong and scary (and he created them for that express purpose). Denethor happens to be born to some dude who happened to be born to some dude. Nothing about him justifies his position of power. Particularily infuriating if actually good characters allow the 'citizen villain' to do their evil deeds or even provide set-up (looking at you, Alfrid Lickspittle from the Hobbit movies).
Loved this breakdown. I think there’s one layer deeper to your conclusion. You highlighted that a Citizen Villain weakens society / counters their goals or progress. At a more personal / moral level, all of your examples exhibit the perversion of roles. Denethor is meant to be a courageous steward and wise tactician, but also, he owes allegiance to the true king, and owes love to both his sons without favouritism. He fails in all these without even trying his best, and that failure to even try makes him detestable. Benny is meant to be a dependable ally, a brave explorer, a useful soldier. Umbridge is meant to facilitate the growth and preparedness of her students. Percy is meant to offer prisoners dignity and security. Daniel Plainview crosses the line into his hateable era when he abandons his son, H.W., and thus abdicates his role as a father. I think when we understand the role someone is meant to play, and then see them abdicate or pervert that role, we despise them for it. Not only the other characters, but we the audience are depending on them to succeed in their role, or at least to try their best. The sense of betrayal and moral outrage play a big role in how I come to hate the characters listed here. (Note: depicting literal betrayal is not how to achieve this. I first need to have an expectation of the character that they then betray me on. In one sense, Sauron never betrays me: I am counting on him to be the Dark Lord, and he does so faithfully.) It’s strongly related to your societal goals frame, but I think the language of expected roles helps. Thanks again for the insane amount of work that goes into your content!
One important trait to make villains hateable is to make them pathetic but to have them somehow get away with it. I do not think just having them be a part of society but work against society's goal is enough. If they are very talented, they can still be admirable rather than hateable to some viewers.
Addendum: expectation is a related piece of the puzzle, I think. With a lot of these "citizen" villains, they are more hateable because they are betraying our expectations of camaraderie. Like, they didn't HAVE to do what they did. Some pride or selfishness or ignorance or whatever leads them to act outside of the interests of the group to which they belong.
I also think what makes a villain hateable is making them just unfair, we all hate being treated unfairly and hate seeing that happen to others, so making us watch our protagonists who we are emphasizing with being treated unfairly by the villain makes us hate them because we identify with the heroes
I always had the problem that I would write villains that have plenty of hateable traits and motivations, but I never felt like I would hate them if I read the story myself. I notice now that many of my villains feel more like complicated allies or antagonistic concepts. People who contribute but do so while just being the worst as people and horrors that are threatening or disturbing but can ultimately be defeated. I think I need a clear civilian villain who is disliked regardless of if you agree with them or not. Just people who you don't want to like because of who they are and what they do. And I also think the concept of the villain who's defeat ultimately doesn't change the outcome is great. A dislikable person who hurts others but isn't the problem themselves... amazing I love that idea and will probably obsess over it for a few days. It does make me think, how about a villain who is the worst but putting up with them is necessary because without them the situation is worse. And then you have a scene of someobe threatening them and despite hating them the protagonist or someone similar has to step in because they know they can't antagonize them for the greater good. This video just got me all motivated to work now and for that I thank you.
Oh man, this video is a triumph. Brilliant insights. So glad you took your time with this and released it once you had a deep grasp of what makes us hate. It's us. We're the villain we hate!
It's never explicitly said that it is Voldemorts end goal, yes, but it is the one thing constantly repeated before we even hear about the man who must not be named: create a society only for pure bloods and get rid of all muggles An external enemy is something we defeat by standing all together, which creates a bond between us. An internal enemy splits us in 2 groups because we can imagine (mayne not knowing) a person being alive that has the traits of the hate-able character in the movie/book
I’d say monster villains don’t necessarily have to be a living thing, but can also be a force of nature that the hero needs to defeat, with the citizen villain being an obstacle toward that goal.
I remember way back when the chainsaw man anime was new, people actively despise Kobeni for those very same reasons mentions in this video, basically what a typical person would react in the world of chainsaw man.
I’ve always found this to be an intriguing topic, and to me the villains I tend to hate most are the villains without honor, like the characters who are actually weak but use weapons to seem strong, and think they are great warriors, ticks me off every time
Great video! I think it's also a great technique to make the audience feel that whenever the character makes their deplorable decision, a good option was easily selectable. They just simply chose not to out of whatever emotion drives them to do such deplorable acts.
I don't mean to be reductive, but it seems the synopsis of your analysis is this: the more relatable a villain is, the more potential they have to be hateable. There are villains that are a force of nature that need to be defeated or subdued (monsters), but the hateability of a character is when they resonate with our innate negative human qualities, such as ignorance, greed, obtuseness, willingness to roll over others, etc.
Most main villains/force of nature villains are completely apart from our moral value system, and therefore we don’t judge their behaviour by it. You don’t judge a crocodile as evil for eating a person, or a tornado for destroying a building, or a wasp for stinging, because you can’t apply human morals to something inhuman. The only thing you can do is stop them if your goals are in opposition. e.g. Voldemort, Sauron, Night King, Galbatorix The minor villains are easier to hate because they are human with human goals, but they break many of our morals to achieve their goals in a way which is repulsive to us. They are aware of our societal norms and break them anyway for their own ends, or even for their own entertainment. Umbridge wants power, abuses her position of power and relishes in being needlessly cruel. Benny wants wealth and not only doesn’t care who he hurts, actively tries to hurt the people around him. Denethor (in the films) is hate-able because he jealously guards his power to the detriment of his own people (not calling Rohan for aid), and also despises, tortures, and callously uses his son, who loves him and is devoted to him. The Green Goblin is a great villain that actually manages to be both. He has human goals, but the change that happens to him transforms him into a force of nature villain. Again, our morales cease to really apply to him as he is acting in the goblin’s nature, even though his goals are still human.
@5:09 You have no idea how happy that makes me, to know that someone as talented as you had a great childhood. We need more of this for all of our children! Count your blessings and you'll never be ungrateful. Great video as always, sir!
I think it's a fundamental misunderstanding of Denethors character. Denethor was never supposed to be a villain or evil - he represents a person that lost faith and fell into desperation.
as someone who only started watching game of thrones after the final season was announced Ihaveto say I loved every moment Geoffrey was on screen with him and Tywin gone, theshow was completely bereft of its greatest villains after season 4
I think what makes Umbridge a great villian is that while none of us have never had to fuel a magical dark lord we've all had to deal with nasty teachers, white collar bureaucratic pricks, or some kind of unpleasant authority figure in our lives. Umbridge is a perfect embodiment of the actual nastiness most people have faced at one time or another
I think the thing that makes us hate a character is that we feel that what they do feels unjust. That is why monsters or supernatural beings are not as hateable, they are more like forces of nature. But when a human(oid) character gets away with doing things we feel are wrong and see the characters we relate to be powerless in the situation, the injustice is what makes us hate them. Why do they get away with that? How is it that that society (in the world of the story) allows for that to happen, why is the world structured in such a way that they cannot be easily stopped? It's not that we are reminded of people or experiences we experienced directly, it is that they remind us of the injustice we notice in the world, it's a reminder of the powerlessness we've felt in other situations.
My perfect movie villain would be Vincent from Collateral. He's a perfect mix of relatable, tragic, and asshole qualities, Cruise really nailed the role.
We honestly need more Villains like Joffery, Krell, Umbridge and Uncle Jack, I mean redeemable villains can definitely work but it’s always great to have a villain you love to hate
@@Sol_Badguy_GGI think the way he built a rift between Walt and Jesse and constantly manipulated Jesse made him kind of hateable but honestly the most hateable character in Breaking Bad is probably someone like Uncle Jack(Or Ted lol)
@@kingDowahs Jack and Tod are way more hateable than Gus. Gus is actually in my opinion a pretty likeable villain because despite doing terrible things and being a pretty horrible human being, his motives behind why he does the things he does, his methods, and his respect to others make him worthy of our respect. We understand and can sympathise with him in certain ways, and can respect his intelligence and strategy even when its being used against the main characters. And he never truly hurts the main cast personally. He's a threat, but he never truly harms them. Jack on the other hand has none of those redeeming qualities (besides maybe intelligence but even that's lesser than Gus'). Where Gus' motivations are sympathetic, Jack is driven purely by greed and self interest. Where Gus almost always has some form of brilliant strategy, Jack kinda just shoots shit with his minor militia. Where Gus is respectful, Jack is insulting, dismissive and arrogant. And on top of all that he's also a white supremacist, so yeah they definitely didn't want him to be likeable. *Spoilers for breaking bad season 5* And to cap it all off, Jack hurts the characters far more personally. He kills Hank like its nothing, he orders Andrea killed just to make Jesse cook him meth, he ruins everything Walt has built, he tortures and enslaves Jesse and mocks him all the while. He's way more hateable because he does worse shit and for incredibly unsympathetic reasons. Fucking great character though.
@@ASmartNameForMe Yeah Jack is definitely more hateable than Gus, Which I why I think he works well as the final antagonist of the show(Apart from Walter’s ego obviously)
@@kingDowahs this is why I loved Cassandra Nova in Deadpool and Wolverine. The movie is filled with problems and the villain is severely underdeveloped and didn’t get enough screentime, BUT I loved how evil and unhinged she was, for Deadpool and Wolverine, a movie about some of Marvel’s biggest anti heroes, I think the villain needs to be pure evil, threatening, dangerous, despicable
Great points! 2 things: - I think what makes us hate more relatable villains is not just that "they display the traits we don't like about ourselves", like they remind us what we try to bury and distance ourselves from; but less selfishly so, we hate them because they don't seem to even try to hold those traits back. It's not that they make us uncomfortable because "deep down, we could maybe be similar" - it's rather that we know that the options they choose (betrayal, torture, exploiting other etc) are things you yourself could do, *technically* - but how WICKED must another HUMAN; not monster, alien, otherworldly being etc...; BE to carry out those actions and behaviors? I think for many of us, we don't have the slightest desire to do what they do, there's no hidden selfishness we try to hold back; a lot of those terrible actions we see the villains do we can't even imagine ourselves do at gunpoint. And this villain PLANS for it, does it willingly, and with *satisfaction*. While they also (we suppose at least) share the same psyche, brain, and reality that we do, because they're just humans. I think that's the disparity that triggers a lot of these feelings about those villains. - Secondly, I think it is also because oftentimes (not always), the otherworldly or main villain do what they do out of a "greater good" brain wash. Voldemort somewhere thinking the world would be better with only pureblood wizards, Magneto wanting to help mutants - or they're just insane, like Wild Bill (which goes back to the previous point). The hateable villains, however, don't have a higher purpose or a hint of misconception that their means will justify a meaningful end. They just make life miserable for others without purpose, or for their ego, because they were contradicted, their pride was hurt, they like feeling dominance, etc.
I just watched the video and it has given me a lot to think about since I'm just getting started in writing. Considering I have a lot of citizen type villains that I am definitely going to be working on with this advice in mind. Thank you! Also will defin😢 be checking out that sponsor, that seems like an extraordinary huge life saver for me since I don't have many people to critique my technical writing on a level that I've been looking for.
Great video and a very interesting take, I really like your distinction between the two types of villains and I mostly agree. I'd only add 1 thing: citizen villains might be awful bc they threaten our society but even more, they threaten our self-perception. They are the Jung's SHADOW, the parts of ourselves that we disown bc we, our concept of who we are, cannot survive accepting and integrating them. We all have our shadows and we hate any manifestation of them we see in others. No none wants to be reminded of that time they acted cowardly, or they were mean to someone weaker than them, or they got a bit drunk on the sense of power. And we all have these moments in our lives and we hate what we think it means about our characters, so we push it into the shadows, and hate these traits in villains. Because noone wants a reminder that they, too, can be a villain.
I don't think the main task of the villain is to be hated. The villain's function is to be an obstacle for the protagonist and raise the stakes. The best villains induce fear and and a kind of respect in the sense that the villain is a worthy nemesis. The catharsis when the villain is beaten usually has more to do with the gratification of watching the protagonist succeed, than spite for the villain. At least that is my opinion. That is why the villains' sidekick is a perfect option for being hateable.
Great video! I love the concept of "citizen villain", I think it's very effective. The Denethor example made me think of, in contrast, Ser Alliser, the commander of the Night Watch in GOT when the wildlings threaten the Wall: unpleasant, scornful, arrogant and biased, Ser Alliser resents Jon Snow and dismisses his suggestions, thus making Castle Black more vunerable to the enemy. He seems to possess all the traits of a typical "citizen villain" that we saw in many war movies (and in some actual wars history): the arrogant and incompetent leader blinded by his own pride, ready to sacrifice everything rather than admitting he was wrong - but then... he surprises you. When he realises his terrible mistake, he is wise enough to acknowledge it and he does all he can to fix the situation: he even shares his power with Jon, putting him in charge of the men on top of the wall, and leads the rest to battle. And he proves to be a genuinely great leader, competent, courageous and inspiring, loyal to his men and ready to fight bravely with them to the end. I loved the writing of this charachter.
Now that you’ve explained the whole concept of the Monster Villain and the Citizen Villain, I can recognize it in a lot of other fictional content where there’s a primary villain that’s a threat to the heroes plain and simple and a secondary villain who’s more hatable because they make it harder for the heroes to overcome the primary one.
Kentaro Miura used this principle to great effect by making griffith a citizen first, monster later. A person you can believably see existing in this world, to a supernatural threat who poses direct opposition to the protagonist. Great stuff!
Here are my thoughts on perhaps a few things that may make a villain hateable: -I think there is an element of either being unreasonable or unacceptably ignorant with their choices, especially in an unnecessary manner. -Being in a position where they SHOULD be good, but CHOOSE not to. This is different than when someone has a different moral code, or believes they are acting in the right. -Being in a position where they SHOULD be someone to be relied upon, but are not. -Displaying oneself as being good despite not being so -Betraying someone, in exchange for something of little value. Being betrayed is one thing, but being valued so little is much more hurtful, and hateable
This reminds me of the analysis OSP did on Mary Sues. It's the function of the character that matters, not the traits, but people latch onto the character traits and point to those as identifiers while completely missing the point.
If you'd like to join a community of writers where you can exchange ideas as well as talk about recent movies and shows, join my discord community: discord.com/invite/aJpYPQX
I'm super active there, and have a dedicated channel for questions from you guys. If you want my input on anything, that's the place to reach out to me.
Keep writing,
- Henry
I had to stop after the first minute and twenty seconds and I caught onto how to write a hateable villain. (Still listening to the video as I write this)
They have to express their flaws openly whether it be in their own treatment of others based from their insecurities that is the quintessential rule of thumb to follow. Even genuinely good people can be or do hateable things because they are written inherently as human beings especially if their flaw betrays their otherwise good nature/qualities.
Studying people even people you know in real life is one great way to be able to write not only hateable villians but heroes as well. Harlan Ellison had told a story about author L Spraugh Decamp attending a writers get-together and hung around in the background with a pen and notepad and was writing down things most of the night and when Harlan said the other writers were asking what was Decamp jotting down they saw that he was writing down all of the funny things the other writers would say because he wanted to know how humor worked and Harlan stated that Decamp wrote some hilarious stories.
There's probably many ways to become a great author but one things for certain doing your homework and understanding people helps tremendously.
It's a testament to Imelda Staunton's acting skills that even she detested Umbridge with a burning passion.
Fr she was the best part of the movie ngl
The reason people hate her is that we ALL know someone like her, teacher or otherwise. She reminded me SO MUCH of a substitute teacher we had in elementary school. She had her favorites, and I was not one of them. It seemed like everything you did wasn't enough for her. I know I'm not the only one who hoped we never got her again, but she just kept coming back.
@@DrgnLdyLizzie2001 Did... Did you watch the video?
She was also the voice of Bunty in chicken run.
@@DrgnLdyLizzie2001, considering how she’s described in the book too, my guess is that Umbridge is trying to compensate for something.
I think, at least for Umbridge, what makes her so hatable is the fact that she (a) gets away with her awful behavior, and (b) is so damn smug about it. The hate comes from a place of being unable to fight back, and on top of that, having it rubbed in our faces
Agreed. It's her whole "I'm right you're wrong" attitude combined with her being a total busy-body.
Yeah, hard agree. Usually I like people who make rules (as they’re usually required) but what she’s doing is draconian! And she’s so proud about it, reminds me of my old teacher I guess lmao
Interestingly, the only time I felt hatred towards Voldemort was when he started acting through the ministry in the Deathly Hallows. It's definitely the helplessness, which is kind of what Henry was saying with the Citizen thing. External threats are much simpler to deal with.
exactly yes...and many of us have had that kind of abusvive teachers aswell , its the most scary and powerless feeling ever as a child , mine thankfyully finally got fired cause all her abuse came out...there were too many students she abused, dont get me wrong,,,,I got really good a chemistry but I got good at chemistry with abuse and because I was soo damn scared everyday
She is pure, undistilled Karen energy of abusing the system, bolstered her deep belief that she is the only one in the right! She doesn't even fathom the possibility that she IS wrong. The smugness and pink fussiness is great!
I have a different, simpler theory.
I read once someone saying "if a dragon refuses to fight, maybe it's just tired, but if it ignores a mosquito, then he is fast asleep".
Yeah, what's the most hated animal of all, the one that everyone wants extinct? Not the shark, not the crocodile, not the lion, not even a venomous snake or some other animal that's perceived as a terrible danger, no.... it's the mosquito. And I'm not talking just of the dangerous Anophele, but also our innocuous european mosquitoes, that merely give you a scratch. They are so detestable.
Danger is not the reason, as they are not perceived as dangerous and in many cases the are not. So why are they so detestable?
They keep pestering you. They are small, they are insigficant, they are stupid, clearly "inferior"... and yet they keep pestering you, they keep biting you, they just won't stop. You often slap your own face trying to hit them, they won't let you sleep in peace, they resist to every attempt at freeing your life of their annoyance, they even buzz in your ears, as if it wasn't enough to bite you, they must also telegraph that they are going to bite you.
Why do we hate them so much?
Because they are *frustrating* . They are worth nothing, they are small, stupid, and yet they keep winning, and again, we will never be free of them, and they will keep buzzin in our ears as if making fun of us.
I personally tested this theory by creating a "mosquito" villain in one of my novels: I made her persistent, almost indestructible, clearly not very intelligent or at least not in a human way: she just kept popping up and flaunting her invulnerability to the heroes while making their life a nightmare.
It worked, I had exactly the reaction that I wanted: more than one beta told me that they just couldn't stand her, that it was such a satisfaction to finally see her destroyed. I think I'm on to something.
Yea i see it the same way with like.. hating an annoying manager.
There's nothing you can do about them, and that's frustrating.
They wouldn't be so hatable if you could get rid of them, but you can't, you're just forced to put up with it.
The whole citizen thing is just an overexplanation.
Wheatley, is that you?
@@HuugTuub exactly. With an evil overlord, at least you'll have that cathartic final battle, your armies will fight to the last soldier, maybe you will challenge him with a sword, or you'll cast spectacular spells, that's going to be satisfying and entertaining, there will be glory, it will be epic. But with the annoying manager... that's not gonna happen. Best case scenario, you find another job, or they fnd another job, and you don't meet again. That's all there is to it.
Interestingly, perhaps the most hated of all the villains in the category is literally an annoying manager: nurse Ratched.
@@Twiddle_things maybe it's just me, but personally, I find Wheatley the littlest bit sympathetic. He is a moron, but he was literally built to be a moron and at all times he is reminded of his inadequacy. It must be painful to feel inadequate all the time, to never get one thing right, you end up developing some complexes.
Also, he is very funny, it's hard to hate someone that makes you laugh 😆
Yes! It's the unfair power given to otherwise weak characters what makes the situation so frustrating. Like, you know if Umbridge didn't have the Ministry behind her she'd wouldn't dare be like that. Or if Joffrey weren't king or had any social status, nobody would've put up with his crap. It's the shield of burocratic power given to the pettiest person.
I've always felt the reason we hate these types of villains is the inverse of why we love "noble" villains-it's not what the villain does that makes us love or hate them, it's whether their evil comes from a place of weakness/insecurity vs. conviction. People hate Joffrey not just because he's sadistic, but because he's a weak boy who acts like a tyrant to make himself appear strong. On the other hand, a character like Thanos kills trillions of people, but people like his character because he acts from a position of strong ideological conviction-he isn't doing it to make himself appear strong, he already knows he's strong. He does it because he sees a goal beyond himself that he wishes to strive for, and there's something we admire in that, even if we don't agree with the goal itself. It's the same reason we hate Joffrey, because we despise weakness masquerading as strength.
I think Commodus from Gladiator is a great example of that, especially when you compare him to Maximus.
And Thanos also goes on a journey of improving his strength for the task ahead. We see him go through 'trials' like a hero would, which is why a lot of people see Infinity War as Thanos's movie and not the Avengers'.
I think it's because societal villains can't simply be defeated in the same way that monster villains can. If you have the opportunity to kill the Night King, you can take it without worrying about consequences. Harry physically could have beat up Umbridge at any time, but he socially isn't allowed to.
@@RauchenWir Thanos in the comics is a better character
@@charlesevanshughes3638 it’s always the same type of characters that are societal villains in the same type of characters that are monster villains, and people only root and humanize villains, regardless, if they are monster or societal, only if they relate to them and can’t handle that villain and being wrong, but demonize other villains, they can’t relate to
"When you close the book, you know full well the ghosts, demons and man-eating monsters are well sealed inside the book; the narcissists, abusers of power, and believers of 'screw-you-got-mine' however are always there right outside your room."
"The point of the story isn't to tell children that evil is real or that monsters exists; they already know that. The point is to teach them that the tyrant can be overthrown, the dragon can be slain, evil can be defeated."
This quote made me think of the trope where a demon gets out when you open an evil book.
the "Monster" villains are the goals of a story, the truly hateable villains are the seemingly unnecessary hurdles between the protagonist and those goals
oh ho ho when i make my main villain in my comic yall finna be PISSED >:)
@@thornels this is why I loved Cassandra Nova in Deadpool and Wolverine. The movie is filled with problems and the villain is severely underdeveloped and didn’t get enough screentime, BUT I loved how evil and unhinged she was, for Deadpool and Wolverine, a movie about some of Marvel’s biggest anti heroes, I think the villain needs to be pure evil, threatening, dangerous, despicable
Imagine if an asteroid big enough to cause an extinction event was on a collision course to Earth, and you had groups trying to impede every opportunity and every possibility to stop that asteroid, or at least mitigate its negative effects(by moving to space or underground or something).
The big bad guys often feel more similar to "forces of nature" than to human beings that you can talk to.
The "unnecessary" part is key. It's the fact that there's nothing stopping them from simply cooperating but they actively choose to be a problem.
@@WanderTheNomad and?
You had every right to put Umbridge as the thumbnail
just seeing her face in the thumbnail made my blood rise lmao, Imelda Staunton is a great actress
Agreed. She is one of the poster-children for hatable side-villains.
The video needed a shout-out to Bev Keane from Midnight Mass, because she's certainly in the same league as Umbridge.
I think a really easy cheat code to make your villain hateable is to make them a coward. There's just something about cowardly villains that make us hate them even more.
@krislyons2793 gets boring and repetitive after a while, how about villains that are hateable that aren’t cowardly, we need all types of hateable villains ones audiences can relate to, and ones they can’t relate to, some they get redeemed some that don’t
@@Seasonal-Shadow_4674then how come most of the most hated villains all one of cowardly trait that helps us hate them
How about cowardly heroes?
@@levievil9220 why can’t we have variety?
Final villain of practical guide to evil is a ultimate coward and soo much more terrifying because of that. Also hetable given extend he will go to for his cowardnes
I think the best way to write a hateable villain is to get the audience to feel a sense of injustice. Many hateable villains cause the protagonists to deal with issues we would not connect with, but we can connect with the feeling of injustice. While I never had a teacher torture me like Umbridge, I've had a teacher punish me and the rest of the class for the behavior of few of the students. Injustice is everywhere and is very relatable, even if we haven't experienced a specific injustice. We see it on the news, and a lot of the time, we are powerless to do anything about it, only able to hate the people who caused it
A politician always makes for a great villain because the stuff they do is grossly unfair. As an IRL example, i saw the governor of california being mad at a parody post and saying he would "sign a bill to make it illegal" i think we can all agree politicians making stupid laws to serve their own self interest is pretty damn infuriating.
Exactly.
I was about to write the exact same comment, I think that "sadistic" advice actually has its roots on the feeling of injustice. Which is a strong throughline between Umbridge, Joffrey and Denethor for example. They all are unfair in their actions and in their judgements.
This is it. I was waiting the whole video for him to say that it was just a sense of injustice and powelessness to stop it. He overcomplicated the answer.
@@Ricardo57492ricardo
before you said they're relatable, the main common trait i found between the hateable villains is that they're all traitors to the main characters. they are all in positions where they SHOULD be helpful, and they are given every chance, but they refuse every time. they betray the characters' trust
This is something I've been thinking about. Umbridge doesn't present herself as a dark witch or even as a harsh tyrant. She wants to be seen as a kindly aunt who unfortunately has to be strict sometimes for the greater good. She would really much rather enjoy a nice cup of sugary tea, but the wretched children simply will not behave and submit to good order! Excessive sweetness is more sickening than bitterness. Poison can be thrown away; cake with too much icing makes me think, "But for this, you could have been delicious", and that betrayal is far worse.
Hmm interesting. I guess that there IS a general sense of betrayal when a person expected to act a certain way just... Doesn't, but it's almost *too* general, I think. Like... It comes from the societal ideals/expectations of what you are supposed to be and represent in your capacity in X/Y/Z role, but NOT from the idea of who you actually are, as a person. Betraying the Heroes directly, in a very VERY personal manner, like Peter Pettigrew did in Harry Potter (selling the Potters out to Voldemort AND pinning the whole thing on one of his best friends was particularly egregious), makes one instantly awful, like, 99.99% of the time, I agree, but you cannot tell me that anyone had expected any good to come out of Umbridge showing up on the scene. Like... I don't know if I'm saying it the best, but there's a reason why they say that the saddest thing about betrayal is that it never comes from your enemies; Umbridge didn't lose our Heroes' genuine trust in her, because she simply never had it in the first place. The MOST she had were reluctant expectations stemming from the *position(s)* she held, and not from HER, as a person, which, again, is very 'low' on the totem pole of betrayal (what you are supposed to be and represent vs who you actually are, as a person. Personal >>>> General).
I can't easily think of any other 'Citizen'-like villain that actively had the Heroes' genuine trust in them, either. It doesn't seem to be very common at all, from what I've seen, at least.
@@didi8360 I don't think they're necessarily talking about direct betrayal of the characters and more of the betrayal of our expectations and of their position of power or trust. For example in Umbridge's case, a teacher should care for her students, and it triggers a sense of injustice in us when she doesn't. As another comment pointed out these characters aren't the real villains of their stories, but they do go out of their way to make it harder of the other characters when they should be helping them. Again for Umbridge, instead of helping her students prepare for the oncoming threat she stays wilfully ignorant, and physically and verbally abuses her students 'for their own good'. Often times there is an aspect of abuse of power in these villains, they can't just not help the heroes, they have to actively hinder them when logic dictates that they should be helping. Not sure if this applies to all hateable villains, but I think it defiantly applies to Umbridge, As its not just that she's a teacher, she's also an adult using her position of power to hurt children, and I think that more than anything is a betrayal of a sort
This is a legit observation. Umbrage is a teacher, who should care about her students, Geoffrey is king who should care about his people and the green mile prison guard should in theory care about his charges. But who can hate Homelander? He’s a villain we love to see betray everything he’s supposed to stand for.
Good observation!!
Another trait of hateable villains that I don't think was touched on is that they don't have to do this. They're often confronted in some way with their awful acts and instead of recognizing what they're doing, they just escalate. They don't need to be doing this. The story would still happen without them doing this. They've been presented with an alternative that would make everything better. They're not dark lords with overwhelming villainy. They're people who've willingly decided to make everyone's day that little bit worse.
I think one the most hateable villains in television is Mister Daniel Lumis from the 1960s revival of Dragnet. He doesn't get much screen time, but when he's confronted by Friday and Gannon, he goes off on this spiel of why he committed burglary and bigamy. Oh, and the story is true---it's just the names were changed.
I would offer Baldur from God Of War 2018 as a counterpoint. He doesn't have to do all the evil he does but he's a compelling and intriguing character nonetheless
Yes, I agree
@@romanticmonkey Wrong, he has to. His pressure comes from the inside rather than the outside, but he absolutely has intense pressure driving all his actions.
@@anjafrohlich1170 then in that case every villain "has to" do the evil they commit and no such villain as the original commenter talks about would exist
It annoys me how much redeemable villains are used nowadays. Sure it doesn't have to be "evil evil mwahaha" but nothing's wrong with someone being born evil or irredeemable. You can even have them be broken by events of the past to still be tragic but they don't have to be redeemable.
I'm glad to see evil villains having a comeback. Jack Horner was fantastic in Puss In Boots 2.
It's just the usual cycle in film. Just like how certain genres become all the rage for a bit before it switches, same with the types of heroes and villains as well.
Take foundry has a really good video that recently came out about redeemable villains
@RyanTheDark I really cant stand people, critics, and audiences, who say that every single villain needs to have a understandable, rational, “depth” , layers, complexity, and believable motives, be sympathetic and complex and ambiguous, and redeemable in order to be realistic, and a compelling character/villain, otherwise according to people who have these demands, and in every single story where their expectations aren’t met and a villain is pure evil and irredeemable, they say that those villains are badly and terribly written, generic, boring, one dimensional, bland, uninteresting, unrealistic, and cartoonish/childish; , and according to them, every single character needs to be three dimensional in order to be good, interesting, “human”, “realistic”, compelling, redeemable, ambiguous, and the only way to be accessible and interesting for “mature adults”.
^ WHEN LITERALLY HATABLE VILLAINS EXISTS AND PROVES ALL OF THAT IS BULLSHIT
and I’ve have seen these same people, fans, and audiences preach these demands about needing villains to be , sympathetic , realistic and three dimensional, infantilize other people for liking pure evil characters because they arent “nuanced”, and therefore they deem anyone who wants “one dimensional” characters/villains has boring taste.
Yeah it seems that too many people wants redeemable villains without realizing that redemption is not as easy or even achievable in real life. Some people are just evil, complex maybe, but evil nonetheless, and worse of all, some don't even want redemption because they think they are in the right. And that's far more common than "evil character that turns good in the end"
Another important distinction to bring up is the difference between hatred and fear.
Good villains usually focus on instilling one of these two emotions in the reader and don't try to do both at once.
Main villains like Sauron or Voldemort usually try to maximize fear.
If you want your villain to be maximally hateable, you should ensure that the reader doesn't fear the villain, because fear distracts you from hatred. The reader will only feel the urge to punch the villain in the face, if the reader does not feel the urge to run away.
I don’t think we hate someone because they represent something we hate about ourselves at all.
We hate them because they give into the evil things we all put work into not doing.
They represent what we never want to be and actively avoid being.
The fact that it takes conscious effort to actively avoid giving in, means that the capacity for evil lives inside you and it _would_ act out if you allowed it.
If you hate people who give in to their vices, then you must hate that part of yourself that also _wants_ to give in. It's just as evil at heart, only less free to act out its impulses because you've restrained it. Your restraint is motivated by fear and contempt of that offending part (i.e. hate) just as you feel fear and contempt toward outside evils that ought to be restrained.
Now, there are some evil impulses that don't seem to be a universal part of human experience and may not live inside you. When you encounter those evils, you're more likely to first experience confusion before hate. You would question, "How is it possible someone could do this?" because the thought of doing it would not have entered your mind in the first place. In this case, I would agree that the hate you feel is toward something entirely outside yourself. (Or at least a very well hidden part of yourself that has never been activated before.)
But if you're constantly at war with yourself to prevent those evil impulses from winning, then yeah, you have to carry a degree of self-hatred in order to keep yourself in check. That's just how it works, in Jungian theory.
Yeah. I don't think I react more strongly to vices which I myself possess. Cowardice and faithlessness are inherently repulsive.
A long time ago, I watched a video about why Umbridge is more hatable than Voldemort, and at the end the guy offered a rewrite that made Voldemort just as hatable. He added a scene where V wipes Hermione's memories of all magic she's ever learned, because half bloods don't deserve magic.
link, stat.
Oooooohhhh... 🤔 😤
Damn that pissed me off so fast
she’s not half blooded, she has no “magic blood”.
Hermione is muggleborn - she has no magical ancestry, she herself just happened to have magic.
Harry is the half-blood in the trio, his mother is muggleborn.
Ron is a pureblood.
Alien, predator, sauron, the night king, Voldemort... They are within their respectable nature. They are bad, evil, or hunters and so act accordingly. We dont hate wolves for hunting game even if we are the game. We just try to survive.
I dont even know if this totally incapaulates what im trying to convey but its what i was thinking throughout the video
Sauron firmly believes himself to be doing good though. His mentor Morgoth may have been nihilistic and wants to break everything to prevent others from enjoying them, but Sauron is imposing his own vision of order and coordination on Middle Earth, which he believes is good for its people in the same way a carpenter believes having four legs of equal length is good for a table (and it's the wood's problem if some of it has to be shaved off, not his).
I do think there is more nuance with Voldemort in the books though. He was a psychopathic pureblood fanatic. What made Voldemort so dangerous wasn't just his power but the ideology behind him that brought out a lot of evil in others. The damage that he did on a more personal level pitted families against each other. In a way he wasn't just a force of nature but a poison.
I think the forces of nature analogy works here. They are consumed by evil they're just fulfilling their role. I feel the citizen villains seem to have a choice and as such could have chosen to be good and didn't
@@kellharris2491 He also unfortunately lacks a presence in the books to everyone BUT Harry. We usually only hear him/encounter some form of him at the end - whereas people like Rita Skeeter, Dolores Umbridge, Snape and Malfoy are interspersed in the chapters frequently and/or heavily so we're bombarded with their nastiness on an almost constant basis. For every part of the individual HP books that Voldemort has attempted to harm someone, we read about Umbridge punishing students/Snape being cruel/Malfoy being a git 20x more.
Better if you made the title "How to Write a proper B*tch" loll
Anyway great video as always
That may have gotten me demonetised 😂
@@TheCloserLookjust wanna say that you’ve helped me a lot with writing and I’m looking forward to what you’re gonna put out… nothing to do with the comment I just wanna express my gratitude.
@@TheCloserLook lmao Ig so😭
@@Thegoobywooby ikr, this guy's great. If you can thank him from this comment, I'm glad.
I think such types of villains are often also the opposite to what they are supposed to be. For instance, Umbridge is the opposite of a good teacher (punishing, condescending, closed minded, etc.), joffrey the opposite of a good king (impulsive, abbusive, childish, etc.), denethor is the opposite of a good steward (cowardly, uncaring, unwilling to relinquish control to the rightful authority, etc.), Beni is the opposite of a good soldier (disloyal, motivated by greed not moral conviction, exploiting those under his protection rather than defending them), etc..
Having goals opposed to the hero is very important (otherwise they would not be an antagonist) but I think breaking the social contract by incorrectly fullfilling their societal role is crucial to tapping into that everyday hatred which is approached with the (far too) aspecific advice of 'tap into real experiences'. You may not have experienced a teacher like umbridge yourself but everybody regularily experiences the little frustration of people not doing what (you think) they are supposed to do.
I think Peter Pettigrew is a good example of how you can have a villain that is hateable by even the other villains. His cowardice, insecurity, and greed not only get in the way of the protagonist, but also the antagonist. His goals truly align only with himself.
I hadn’t fully made that connection before, but it makes a lot of sense that the most hated characters are ones who have broken their implicit social contracts to the detriment of their group, e.g. Benny abandoning his fellow soldiers to save himself, Umbrage abusing her power over students while refusing to do her actual job (and also being a toady for a government that was also abusing its power over the school-Umbrage is just a walking conglomeration of broken social contracts), etc. They betray their commitments and responsibilities in ways that significantly hurt the people around them.
A dark lord or a literal monster or Joker-type villain has no implicit social contracts; they’re explicitly outside the normal social structures. We have no expectations of loyalty, assistance, or benevolence from them based on their position, so they don’t evoke the same feeling of betrayal and scandal that the “citizen” villains can.
I notice as well that the "monster"/"citizen" argument has been used as deconstructions against the titular character and Tighten from Megamind.
In the case of the former, he is essentially a faux-monster. He's never malicious or wishes to hurt anyone (he even says so in his eulogy to Metro-Man when he blows up the museum), but he's just "evil" for the fun of it.
By contrast, someone like Tighten is not only reminiscent of people you can meet or have met in real life, but the minute he gets powers, he actively becomes a legitimate threat to the city in a way people's lives could actually be hurt. In a way, he's not too dissimilar to characters like Umbridge, Percy, Joffrey, etc. if they were given Tighten's powers.
I think Cinema Therapy's video on Megamind explained it better than I ever could, but you get the idea.
I think a big thing about the Umbridge and Tomato guy type villains is that they aren't exactly aligned with the true villain, but they are instead somewhere in the middle, but the important thing is that they are actively trying to counter the heroes' efforts to defeat the villain.
We hate Voldemort and Sauron in a passive sense that makes us root for the heroes to defeat them, but we don't actively despise them, because they are making us cheer for the heroes. Umbridge and Denethor are bringing the good guys down in a way that is infuriating and makes us actively hateful.
Watching them hinder the good guys evokes a boiling sense of frustration: someone is trying to save you and everyone else from a terrible evil, and you are trying to stop it for whatever selfish reasons.
I'd daresay this can reach into real world territory where we often see people trying to address problems in the world, and others combat their efforts for no reason other than politics and power. I think someone with no urge to prevent an overt threat to the whole world actively fighting against those who do have the will to fight back is one of the most frustrating images I can put together in my mind, and I think these villain archetypes work best in stories like LOTR and Harry Potter because they synergize with the pure evil villain archetype.
@angrychickengod3831 I mean I cheered when Ron’s mom killed Bellatrix
on the nose!!!
Yeah like those people who fight against the use of gmo's.
It's actively making people's life's better the better the GMO's are, yet people destroy research and hate it
For me it's about contrast. Horrible monsters in a fantasy forest are less scary than in a real-world closet. Darth Vader is sadistic, he kills people, destroys things, but few people really hate him. Umbridge doesn't do all that bad of stuff, but it's the reality of those things that get on our nerves. Umbridge isn't a villain, she's a teacher. She's supposed to be good-natured. Vader is clearly a villain, it's what we expect. Umbridge is contextually a lot closer to people we've experienced dealing with. It's closer to our hearts.
I think the "supposed to be" is a key element here
@@mr_clean575 Definitely.
Yup. So many of us have encountered some form of Dolores Umbridge in our lives: be it abusive parents or parental figures, teachers, persons of authority, bosses. I've even had co-workers who were like Umbridge: holier-than-thou narcissists who think bureaucracy = good and find some sense of arrogance on being right all the time. Like, shut the f up Janet.
I've rarely, if at all, encountered people like Voldemort and/or Vader.
I think there’s one common trait for any hateable character - they do not live up to our (the viewers’) expectations or hopes.
Denethor COULD be a good father, or at least redeemable… but he falls short of this. Joffrey COuLD use his power for good… but refuses to. Bennie COULD help the group evade/defeat the mummy, or show a semblance of common decency, but he can’t quite do it…
If you want a character to be hateable, simply have them ‘let the viewer down’ in some way
9:53 loved how you included Thanos' snap as well as Voldemort dusting away in the next shot XD
This might be your best video. You perfectly NAILED the most hateable villains, and gave compelling explanations for why they’re so hated. And as the cherry on top you finish with pro writing aid. I’ve never considered a grammarly type software for myself because frankly I’m smarter than most of them and i find them more frustrating than useful. But this one looks absolutely essential. I’ll have to check it out asap.
Thank you for a fantastic video!
Thanks for the high praise! And prowritingaid is the first company I actually reached out to instead of them to me, because I've used them for a while now. They've never actually sponsored anyone before. This is their first time.
Fantastic discussion and examples here! Also, that IT crowd clip at around 1:06 was very appreciated
I think you meant it was Brie-liant.
I think another reason a character can be hateable is when they are clearly despicable people and yet there are never any ramifications for their actions. Benny sucked because he constantly screwed people over but never was punished for it until the end. Which is why it's so cathardic when they finally do get punished in the end.
yeah to me probably the most hateable villain in all of media is count olaf from a series of unfortunate events, and even though bad things happen to him sometimes it feels like he never really faces true justice for everything he puts the protagonists through
This is an appeal to justice. The audience cares about justice. They care more every time it gets subverted. The real trick is to bother, hinder, hurt or harass something the audience holds dear… and the technique you mentioned is a clever way to make the audience more invested in the sense of justice which increases their emotional response to injustice.
Exactly they‘ve got to succeed in some way without facing consequences.
Like Umbridge, who gained almost full control over Hogwarts.
Exactly they‘ve got to succeed in some way without facing consequences.
Like Umbridge, who gained almost full control over Hogwarts.
Anton Chigur is a villan that you can't hate, you can only really fear him. No Country for Old Men really nailed the book's horrifying antagonist.
Good video,
also Sauron's character flaw is hubris.
It allows Isildor the opportunity to remove his hand at the beginning of the movies and it causes him to ignore Frodo and Sam because he is too confident that he knows that Aragorn has the Ring at the end of them.
Here here! Seems like some good stuff was missed in this video or glossed over to artificially strengthen the thesis.
I always have pure joy whenever I see The Closer Look uploads another video
Man, every time you put out a video I think it’s your best one. And then I watch a previous video and realize that they’re all spectacular rewatches too. Keep up the great work!
a true villan that is hated is a everyman someone you might see in real life. while a monster is just a threat. i agree with you on that
@@TheAngelofBaal we need more variety in true villains in all sorts of genres
I think an interesting connection between all of these villains is that many of them hold a position of 'power' over the characters we are rooting for, and are kept out of reach from learning their lesson; even Percy. Umbridge is untouchable, Beni is protected...
I think one thing common with villains I hate is incompetence. Like... If you're gonna be a villain, be good at it. It's just so cringe-worthy if a villain's goals are so counterintuitive to their actions and personality. Cowardice, ignorance, childishness, lack of self-awareness, all lead to incompetence.
What makes an Antagonist scary is making them the farthest from human, while still being human. What makes one hatable is making them have a position in life you dont think they deserve. Have them exploit that position in the most relatable ways being the perfect scapegoat.
Well you don’t need to make them “while still being human” AT ALL to be scary for an antagonist to be scary and effective as a compelling villain or antagonist but yeah everything else I agree with!
An idea. The strongest negative emotion you can experience is the feeling of unfairnes. If someone is is acting unjust to you or someone else. It can mean using their power to punch someone smaller and take their lunch or punishing a made up "sin". I feel like the emotion is the core and you can get there in many way. You may fear the Alien, Voldemort or tornado, but thats all.
Yes, this is a key ingredient to someone truly despicable. Someone who is unfair and cannot be reasoned with.
I do think the actor has a lot to do with it also. Like some actors are just great all making you hate them, whether it be because of how they act, or the way they look or behave.
Yes, but she was already like this in the books. Imelda Staunton succeeded at emulating exactly what it felt like to be in her presence in the books
@@officialmonarchmusic I'm still impressed at how Imelda managed to capture the "toadiness" of Umbridge. You look at the film version of Umbridge and you just immediately want to sucker punch her in the face on instinct.
And then cut to The Crown where Staunton plays an elderly Queen Elizabeth II and immediately I don't see Umbridge at all.
@@cainyourkidsIt takes real talent to make your character feel “toady” even though YOU don’t look like a toad. She doesn’t at all look like her book description but she nails it so hard to the point where she was physically ill in between scenes because even she despised her character. And yet, as you say, she transformed
This is a fantastic essay and has really made me think twice about my own writing. That's why I love this channel so much!
Thanks dude!
I think what makes a person so despised as a villain also relates to the frequency and proximity to our protagonists. Sauron is the greatest threat to all, but from such an unfathomable distance that its imperceptible until his army is at the front door. Denethor is within the same walls as some of our protagonist and a constant immediate and relentless obstacle. You can apply that as well to other villains, King Joffrey vs Night King, Benny vs the Mummy, Professor Umbridge vs Voldemort. They become obstacles or antagonists far sooner and in closer proximity for our antagonists before the real evil comes knocking. Even take a look Far Cry 3, Vaas vs Hoyt. You hate Vaas far more than Hoyt despite it all being the decisions from Hoyt himself for why people are being trafficked or killed. Its also why a lot of the other villains within Far Cry hasnt hit as hard as Vaas. We are introduced to the "Main Villain" at the start but rarely have contact with them making the constant threat seem at such a distance that I dont actually care about Anton Castillo, Pagan Min, Joseph Seed had other villains in his followers but they kind of became a routine rather than a constant threat. Well never get another Vaas, because the story telling emphasizing villains in ubisoft is that they need to be great big bad villains that you can keep interacting with rather than a constant thorn in your side poking and prodding you at every turn.
1:53 all the traits were applied to Jack Horner in Puss in Boots the Last Wish and everyone love him hahhahahaha
Well one of the key reasons is that Jack Horner is trying to MOCK sympathetic villains and fully revel in being a pure evil villain in a very cartoonishly entertaining way that makes the audience love him because of just how much fun he is to watch.
I think the answer to its core is just make the characters and the audience feel a sense of injustice and a powerlessness to stop it. Thats it. You can then add flavour by making the villain relish and flaunt their position of power and mocking other for their innability to stop them.
This was a fabulous video. It should help any of my future villain writing.
11:00 those friggin scarabs probably gave nightmares to everyone.
I always thought that hateable characters were the ones who were evil in ways that were socially permissible. Like, they suck, but the characters in the story have no real course of action to fight back. In stories this manifests as living in a world where the hateable characters' actions are not the type which get punished (at least not explicitly for the character traits which are hateable).
A further point that might be interesting to look at: How much 'personal power' does the 'citizen villain' have (as opposed to power invested by institutions, society, etc.)? Because I have the sneaking suspicion that one thing that reliably creates a very hateable villain is not having a satisfying answer to the question "Why THEM? Why do I/we have to suffer THEM in particular?"
For the 'monster villains', this is typically answered by their 'personal power' in some form. You have to suffer Voldemort because he is powerfull enough to inflict violence on you as he pleases (until stopped by the heroe at great effort). But Umbridge? She was just put into a position of authority by someone at least as incompetent than herself. Sauron is basically a fallen god and his armies follow him because he is strong and scary (and he created them for that express purpose). Denethor happens to be born to some dude who happened to be born to some dude. Nothing about him justifies his position of power.
Particularily infuriating if actually good characters allow the 'citizen villain' to do their evil deeds or even provide set-up (looking at you, Alfrid Lickspittle from the Hobbit movies).
Loved this breakdown. I think there’s one layer deeper to your conclusion. You highlighted that a Citizen Villain weakens society / counters their goals or progress. At a more personal / moral level, all of your examples exhibit the perversion of roles.
Denethor is meant to be a courageous steward and wise tactician, but also, he owes allegiance to the true king, and owes love to both his sons without favouritism. He fails in all these without even trying his best, and that failure to even try makes him detestable.
Benny is meant to be a dependable ally, a brave explorer, a useful soldier.
Umbridge is meant to facilitate the growth and preparedness of her students.
Percy is meant to offer prisoners dignity and security.
Daniel Plainview crosses the line into his hateable era when he abandons his son, H.W., and thus abdicates his role as a father.
I think when we understand the role someone is meant to play, and then see them abdicate or pervert that role, we despise them for it. Not only the other characters, but we the audience are depending on them to succeed in their role, or at least to try their best. The sense of betrayal and moral outrage play a big role in how I come to hate the characters listed here. (Note: depicting literal betrayal is not how to achieve this. I first need to have an expectation of the character that they then betray me on. In one sense, Sauron never betrays me: I am counting on him to be the Dark Lord, and he does so faithfully.)
It’s strongly related to your societal goals frame, but I think the language of expected roles helps. Thanks again for the insane amount of work that goes into your content!
16:37 I hated Saruman more than Denethor when I read the lotr books, and Saruman fits into your formula nicely considering he's the traitor wizard
THE RETURN! Finally...
I released a Deadpool video last week 🙃
@@TheCloserLookBut this video makes it a proper return and not just a one off🎉
One important trait to make villains hateable is to make them pathetic but to have them somehow get away with it.
I do not think just having them be a part of society but work against society's goal is enough. If they are very talented, they can still be admirable rather than hateable to some viewers.
Addendum: expectation is a related piece of the puzzle, I think. With a lot of these "citizen" villains, they are more hateable because they are betraying our expectations of camaraderie. Like, they didn't HAVE to do what they did. Some pride or selfishness or ignorance or whatever leads them to act outside of the interests of the group to which they belong.
I also think what makes a villain hateable is making them just unfair, we all hate being treated unfairly and hate seeing that happen to others, so making us watch our protagonists who we are emphasizing with being treated unfairly by the villain makes us hate them because we identify with the heroes
Yes! A person who is unfair and cannot be reasoned with causes a lot of frustration. It gets under our skin.
I always had the problem that I would write villains that have plenty of hateable traits and motivations, but I never felt like I would hate them if I read the story myself.
I notice now that many of my villains feel more like complicated allies or antagonistic concepts.
People who contribute but do so while just being the worst as people and horrors that are threatening or disturbing but can ultimately be defeated.
I think I need a clear civilian villain who is disliked regardless of if you agree with them or not. Just people who you don't want to like because of who they are and what they do.
And I also think the concept of the villain who's defeat ultimately doesn't change the outcome is great. A dislikable person who hurts others but isn't the problem themselves... amazing I love that idea and will probably obsess over it for a few days.
It does make me think, how about a villain who is the worst but putting up with them is necessary because without them the situation is worse. And then you have a scene of someobe threatening them and despite hating them the protagonist or someone similar has to step in because they know they can't antagonize them for the greater good.
This video just got me all motivated to work now and for that I thank you.
Oh man, this video is a triumph. Brilliant insights. So glad you took your time with this and released it once you had a deep grasp of what makes us hate. It's us. We're the villain we hate!
It's never explicitly said that it is Voldemorts end goal, yes, but it is the one thing constantly repeated before we even hear about the man who must not be named: create a society only for pure bloods and get rid of all muggles
An external enemy is something we defeat by standing all together, which creates a bond between us. An internal enemy splits us in 2 groups because we can imagine (mayne not knowing) a person being alive that has the traits of the hate-able character in the movie/book
I’d say monster villains don’t necessarily have to be a living thing, but can also be a force of nature that the hero needs to defeat, with the citizen villain being an obstacle toward that goal.
I remember way back when the chainsaw man anime was new, people actively despise Kobeni for those very same reasons mentions in this video, basically what a typical person would react in the world of chainsaw man.
I’ve always found this to be an intriguing topic, and to me the villains I tend to hate most are the villains without honor, like the characters who are actually weak but use weapons to seem strong, and think they are great warriors, ticks me off every time
Wow what amazing video!!!
For me it is also the emotional trauma that the citizen villains enflict upon our protagonists
Great video! I think it's also a great technique to make the audience feel that whenever the character makes their deplorable decision, a good option was easily selectable. They just simply chose not to out of whatever emotion drives them to do such deplorable acts.
Hits the right notes but it needn't take twenty minutes to say;
The one thing worse than an honest enemy is a traitor.
I don't mean to be reductive, but it seems the synopsis of your analysis is this: the more relatable a villain is, the more potential they have to be hateable. There are villains that are a force of nature that need to be defeated or subdued (monsters), but the hateability of a character is when they resonate with our innate negative human qualities, such as ignorance, greed, obtuseness, willingness to roll over others, etc.
Scariest villain I’ve ever seen was Andrew Scott’s Moriarty in Sherlock.
I hated Umbredge but I was scared to death by Scott’s performance.
I needed this video today. If my book ever gets anywhere I hope you know that you’ve made the rival antagonist a better character.
Thanks. Good luck with the book!
Good to have you back Henry :)
9:52 that editing is crazy
Pong Krell: look at what they need to mimic a fraction of my power!
Most main villains/force of nature villains are completely apart from our moral value system, and therefore we don’t judge their behaviour by it. You don’t judge a crocodile as evil for eating a person, or a tornado for destroying a building, or a wasp for stinging, because you can’t apply human morals to something inhuman. The only thing you can do is stop them if your goals are in opposition.
e.g. Voldemort, Sauron, Night King, Galbatorix
The minor villains are easier to hate because they are human with human goals, but they break many of our morals to achieve their goals in a way which is repulsive to us. They are aware of our societal norms and break them anyway for their own ends, or even for their own entertainment. Umbridge wants power, abuses her position of power and relishes in being needlessly cruel. Benny wants wealth and not only doesn’t care who he hurts, actively tries to hurt the people around him.
Denethor (in the films) is hate-able because he jealously guards his power to the detriment of his own people (not calling Rohan for aid), and also despises, tortures, and callously uses his son, who loves him and is devoted to him.
The Green Goblin is a great villain that actually manages to be both. He has human goals, but the change that happens to him transforms him into a force of nature villain. Again, our morales cease to really apply to him as he is acting in the goblin’s nature, even though his goals are still human.
You should make a video about making your story more interesting… also Great Video! Keep uploading please!
Very excited for this video! I love hateable villains and characters, and I'd love to be better at writimg them
4:31 Fun fact Calvin Candie from Django Unchained is the only character that Quentin Tarantino created that he also hated.
I agree, but I think Stephen was even more detestable.
@@invisibleman4827I guess but he’s also more likeable, I like both of them ngl
@5:09 You have no idea how happy that makes me, to know that someone as talented as you had a great childhood. We need more of this for all of our children! Count your blessings and you'll never be ungrateful. Great video as always, sir!
I think it's a fundamental misunderstanding of Denethors character. Denethor was never supposed to be a villain or evil - he represents a person that lost faith and fell into desperation.
as someone who only started watching game of thrones after the final season was announced Ihaveto say I loved every moment Geoffrey was on screen
with him and Tywin gone, theshow was completely bereft of its greatest villains after season 4
I think what makes Umbridge a great villian is that while none of us have never had to fuel a magical dark lord we've all had to deal with nasty teachers, white collar bureaucratic pricks, or some kind of unpleasant authority figure in our lives. Umbridge is a perfect embodiment of the actual nastiness most people have faced at one time or another
I think the thing that makes us hate a character is that we feel that what they do feels unjust. That is why monsters or supernatural beings are not as hateable, they are more like forces of nature. But when a human(oid) character gets away with doing things we feel are wrong and see the characters we relate to be powerless in the situation, the injustice is what makes us hate them. Why do they get away with that? How is it that that society (in the world of the story) allows for that to happen, why is the world structured in such a way that they cannot be easily stopped?
It's not that we are reminded of people or experiences we experienced directly, it is that they remind us of the injustice we notice in the world, it's a reminder of the powerlessness we've felt in other situations.
My perfect movie villain would be Vincent from Collateral. He's a perfect mix of relatable, tragic, and asshole qualities, Cruise really nailed the role.
One of my favorite scripts you have ever written. Well done!
We honestly need more Villains like Joffery, Krell, Umbridge and Uncle Jack, I mean redeemable villains can definitely work but it’s always great to have a villain you love to hate
How was Gus a hatable villain ??
@@Sol_Badguy_GGI think the way he built a rift between Walt and Jesse and constantly manipulated Jesse made him kind of hateable but honestly the most hateable character in Breaking Bad is probably someone like Uncle Jack(Or Ted lol)
@@kingDowahs Jack and Tod are way more hateable than Gus. Gus is actually in my opinion a pretty likeable villain because despite doing terrible things and being a pretty horrible human being, his motives behind why he does the things he does, his methods, and his respect to others make him worthy of our respect. We understand and can sympathise with him in certain ways, and can respect his intelligence and strategy even when its being used against the main characters. And he never truly hurts the main cast personally. He's a threat, but he never truly harms them.
Jack on the other hand has none of those redeeming qualities (besides maybe intelligence but even that's lesser than Gus'). Where Gus' motivations are sympathetic, Jack is driven purely by greed and self interest. Where Gus almost always has some form of brilliant strategy, Jack kinda just shoots shit with his minor militia. Where Gus is respectful, Jack is insulting, dismissive and arrogant. And on top of all that he's also a white supremacist, so yeah they definitely didn't want him to be likeable.
*Spoilers for breaking bad season 5* And to cap it all off, Jack hurts the characters far more personally. He kills Hank like its nothing, he orders Andrea killed just to make Jesse cook him meth, he ruins everything Walt has built, he tortures and enslaves Jesse and mocks him all the while. He's way more hateable because he does worse shit and for incredibly unsympathetic reasons. Fucking great character though.
@@ASmartNameForMe Yeah Jack is definitely more hateable than Gus, Which I why I think he works well as the final antagonist of the show(Apart from Walter’s ego obviously)
@@kingDowahs this is why I loved Cassandra Nova in Deadpool and Wolverine. The movie is filled with problems and the villain is severely underdeveloped and didn’t get enough screentime, BUT I loved how evil and unhinged she was, for Deadpool and Wolverine, a movie about some of Marvel’s biggest anti heroes, I think the villain needs to be pure evil, threatening, dangerous, despicable
Every Henry video is like pure gold
Ahh yes... The Closer Look, the greatest writing advice channel on yt
your videos always give me nostalgia. Remember watching you all day everyday in highschool.
11:57 Harry Potter and the Malicious Compliance.
Great points!
2 things:
- I think what makes us hate more relatable villains is not just that "they display the traits we don't like about ourselves", like they remind us what we try to bury and distance ourselves from; but less selfishly so, we hate them because they don't seem to even try to hold those traits back. It's not that they make us uncomfortable because "deep down, we could maybe be similar" - it's rather that we know that the options they choose (betrayal, torture, exploiting other etc) are things you yourself could do, *technically* - but how WICKED must another HUMAN; not monster, alien, otherworldly being etc...; BE to carry out those actions and behaviors? I think for many of us, we don't have the slightest desire to do what they do, there's no hidden selfishness we try to hold back; a lot of those terrible actions we see the villains do we can't even imagine ourselves do at gunpoint. And this villain PLANS for it, does it willingly, and with *satisfaction*. While they also (we suppose at least) share the same psyche, brain, and reality that we do, because they're just humans. I think that's the disparity that triggers a lot of these feelings about those villains.
- Secondly, I think it is also because oftentimes (not always), the otherworldly or main villain do what they do out of a "greater good" brain wash. Voldemort somewhere thinking the world would be better with only pureblood wizards, Magneto wanting to help mutants - or they're just insane, like Wild Bill (which goes back to the previous point).
The hateable villains, however, don't have a higher purpose or a hint of misconception that their means will justify a meaningful end. They just make life miserable for others without purpose, or for their ego, because they were contradicted, their pride was hurt, they like feeling dominance, etc.
12:39 Sauron's character flaws are vainity and pride.
Which version? Rings of power? No one really considers that garbage as canon lol
@@KingSlayer_. No. As seen in the Silmarillion. Of course not rings of power. That's fanfic.
I just watched the video and it has given me a lot to think about since I'm just getting started in writing. Considering I have a lot of citizen type villains that I am definitely going to be working on with this advice in mind. Thank you!
Also will defin😢 be checking out that sponsor, that seems like an extraordinary huge life saver for me since I don't have many people to critique my technical writing on a level that I've been looking for.
Great video and a very interesting take, I really like your distinction between the two types of villains and I mostly agree. I'd only add 1 thing: citizen villains might be awful bc they threaten our society but even more, they threaten our self-perception. They are the Jung's SHADOW, the parts of ourselves that we disown bc we, our concept of who we are, cannot survive accepting and integrating them. We all have our shadows and we hate any manifestation of them we see in others. No none wants to be reminded of that time they acted cowardly, or they were mean to someone weaker than them, or they got a bit drunk on the sense of power. And we all have these moments in our lives and we hate what we think it means about our characters, so we push it into the shadows, and hate these traits in villains. Because noone wants a reminder that they, too, can be a villain.
I don't think the main task of the villain is to be hated. The villain's function is to be an obstacle for the protagonist and raise the stakes. The best villains induce fear and and a kind of respect in the sense that the villain is a worthy nemesis. The catharsis when the villain is beaten usually has more to do with the gratification of watching the protagonist succeed, than spite for the villain. At least that is my opinion. That is why the villains' sidekick is a perfect option for being hateable.
Great video! I love the concept of "citizen villain", I think it's very effective. The Denethor example made me think of, in contrast, Ser Alliser, the commander of the Night Watch in GOT when the wildlings threaten the Wall: unpleasant, scornful, arrogant and biased, Ser Alliser resents Jon Snow and dismisses his suggestions, thus making Castle Black more vunerable to the enemy. He seems to possess all the traits of a typical "citizen villain" that we saw in many war movies (and in some actual wars history): the arrogant and incompetent leader blinded by his own pride, ready to sacrifice everything rather than admitting he was wrong - but then... he surprises you. When he realises his terrible mistake, he is wise enough to acknowledge it and he does all he can to fix the situation: he even shares his power with Jon, putting him in charge of the men on top of the wall, and leads the rest to battle. And he proves to be a genuinely great leader, competent, courageous and inspiring, loyal to his men and ready to fight bravely with them to the end. I loved the writing of this charachter.
august 12, 2036
What happens on that date?
👀👀👀
Now that you’ve explained the whole concept of the Monster Villain and the Citizen Villain, I can recognize it in a lot of other fictional content where there’s a primary villain that’s a threat to the heroes plain and simple and a secondary villain who’s more hatable because they make it harder for the heroes to overcome the primary one.
How nice of Rowling to write herself into the story, to serve as an example for this video to draw from.
Kentaro Miura used this principle to great effect by making griffith a citizen first, monster later. A person you can believably see existing in this world, to a supernatural threat who poses direct opposition to the protagonist. Great stuff!
Based on the thumbnail…
Step one: Be a hateable person, and write what you know.
Lmao yes
Here are my thoughts on perhaps a few things that may make a villain hateable:
-I think there is an element of either being unreasonable or unacceptably ignorant with their choices, especially in an unnecessary manner.
-Being in a position where they SHOULD be good, but CHOOSE not to. This is different than when someone has a different moral code, or believes they are acting in the right.
-Being in a position where they SHOULD be someone to be relied upon, but are not.
-Displaying oneself as being good despite not being so
-Betraying someone, in exchange for something of little value. Being betrayed is one thing, but being valued so little is much more hurtful, and hateable
You've forgotten one of life's most hatable villains. jK Rowling
9:04 I certainly didn't expect this sort of holy inquisition
This was brilliant! ❤ I love it that you Look Behind the Common advice and dig deeper until you are satisfied with the complete truth 🎉
This reminds me of the analysis OSP did on Mary Sues. It's the function of the character that matters, not the traits, but people latch onto the character traits and point to those as identifiers while completely missing the point.
So glad to see you again! I missed your videos.
you're like doshdoshington - you pop up every once in a while and it's really nice