Best educational video I have seen for a long time, made me laugh so much as I have just got out of the trade after 35 years. I gave most of my 16th edition test equipment ( probably now non complaint) to a new apprentice going through the 18th edition who is now having nightmares as he now has to do CAD as well. I worked in Thailand in 1999, tried to get connector blocks for some lighting and the wholesaler said "No not have, just twist and tape, not have connector". I wish good luck to all the new guys taking up this industry in the UK, no fun any more! Before you make a comment I was an electrical inspector under the 16th edition in the commercial world, so I new my stuff then, now just DILLIGAF comes to mind. Happy days.
This is definately your BEST EVER VIDEO if this has been filmed in a fluid state and not scripted, I would definately say that you are wasted pushing bits of wire into holes, maybe at Part 16.39 you could have slowed your speach down, as it did sound like fast waffle from an auto cue, but 10 out of 10 for covering this obscure product and for covering it so well - excellent work! Mr Spence Eng
very keen to get one, often lightning damage here, i suppose you could be unlucky and get a hit then the device blows and there's still some juice left in the hit to damage other devices, or there could be a second surge on same storm. My main concern is protecting an expensive solar inverter.
Low cost,!! I buy these in Spain for 23€ and believe it or not, they are a basic varistor that costs a couple of cents to buy, but they work,! Most quality electronic goods like TVs and Aircon have a varister incorporated on the circuit board near the supply which blows rendering the thing 'broken' and in need of major repair! So by popping in a new 20cent part and charging (sucks in teeth....) 80€ you can clean up quite nicely!😀
The formula would seem to push most households out of the requirement for surge protection devices but the requirement to protect cultural heritage may be significant. UNESCO considers listed buildings to be part of the cultural and historic heritage of the UK and we are UNESCO signatory. There are about 500,000 listed building and structures in the uk and this looks like it makes surge protection a requirement in these buildings.
Great video, thanks. What a surprise to find an equation in 18th Edition that no one will be able to work out ! Who writes these regs? “Hello Mr DNO, an you please tell me the line lengths to my property from the nearest HV tower?......hello ?” Click. 🤬
maybe not that serious i seen a few strikes direct (not that spd can stop that ) but transient voltages can damage expensive equipment maybe not blow it up but just stop working now i never seen this myself so its just a theory in my head, most equipment is rated to 1.5kv , i think this is a manufacturer forcing the reg thro and especially insurance companies maybe the dno know summit we do not at this time
In a-level physics, the calculations where you just make an educated guess for unknown are called "fermi estimates" after someone who was able to calculate the power of a nuclear bomb test by just dropping pieces of ripped paper at the right time.Basically it gives you a result correct to an order of magnitude which may or may not be useful...
It's certainly doesn't seem very useful to figure out for sure if it is needed or not. One would hope the official requirements for when certain devices were needed would be clear!
Brilliant Video David . . Good to see you've reached the same conclusion as I did regarding SPD's i.e practically everywhere will need one. Keep up the good work.
Hi David, another great channel to help us poor strugling sparkys. I'm afraid I have nothing to add but I think you did spark off one of my pet hates. - If I heard correctly; at some point you said an earth conductor of 6mm squared is required. I asume you meant 6sq mm. As the former is six times the size of the later, the difference is significant. Keep up the good work please.
If installing on a TN-C-S / PME supply do you still need a double unit like in the video, Is a single unit (L - E only) ok due to the fact that PE & N are joined together so why do you need a neutral connection? Example of a single unit: www.conrad.com/p/eaton-167593-spct2-2801-surge-arrester-surge-protection-for-switchboards-20-ka-1-pcs-1716860?WT.srch=1&vat=true
Hi David just been to a NAPIT “awareness” road show concerning SPDs and you’ve better explained what’s needed in your vid than the microphone wearing “expert” had to say. I’ll recommend them to customers but it’s up to them, simples. I knew that equation was hooky when he said”contact western power for the information” especially the fact they don’t know if a property is PME or not 😄 might as well ring time team and ask Tony Robinson 🙄 I’m going to ask the client to sign a statement if they don’t want a SPD just to cover myself, you know 😉 One last thing, if your fitting it to the board is it a minor works cert that’s required as technically it’s a new circuit? Brilliant video keep swigging the scotch😊
I'm glad you found my chuntering useful! As far as I'm concerned, I'll let my customers decide whether or not they want to fork out the extra for an SPD. Hopefully, they'll soon start coming as standard with new consumer units, but I can't force people to take them, and the Regs provide that get-out clause for domestic properties. In the end, I have to stay competitive, and I don't want to lose jobs because some cowboy can undercut me by leaving out the SPD while I insist on it being fitted. Regarding the cert, I think if I were to retrofit one I would personally cover it on an EIC as (technically) it is a new circuit and a change to the consumer unit even though the installation may be relatively minor in itself. An EIC will certainly cover your arse.
Excellent video, makes surge protection a little clearer. Would appreciate a video on SPD’s & TT systems. Also a video on the use of types of RCD’s, within a standard installation. I have spoken to the niceic helpline regarding the new regulations concerning RCD types & that didn’t clear anything up either. You also mention that you have used a contactor for the shower & electric vehicle. I would be interested in how you have done this.
Since the varistor module is removable without removing the cu cover, could that allow fingers access to a live busbar? Less a problem if there is a (e.g.) mcb either side. In your setup the spd was the end device and a 2 module gap, a not uncommon scenario. £60++ for a stack of varistors seems a high price. Also the initial high normal-state resistance does drop as they arrest surges, after a number of years they may continuously draw a small amount of current (but this is why there end of life warning lights).
Very good points Peter, and yes, having just yanked my module out, I can confirm that if it was left without replacement then someone could stick their finger around and onto a live busbar if the neighbouring ways are blank.
Wow I am impressed that the folks at Edmundson, gave you time to shrug their shoulders. Normally when I go in they like to let you patiently wait for what feels like forever before they grace you with a glance. And disappointed at the lack of freebie hats you got for the rest of us, shame on you David 😋. Oh and great video by the way 👍🏻
Great videos David. I’ve asked this question on another thread but here goes. I’m thinking what’s the point in spds on the neutral?. Neutral is already grounded to earth in tncs and tns back to the supply transformer. so putting a spd on the neutral in a property is unnecessarily doubling up. Double bonding if you like. Mmmmm
Hi Danny. What I know about surge protection is entirely contained in this video I'm afraid. I'm not sure, but I suppose an indirect lightning strike could affect the neutral, especially on a TNS or TT installation. I'm not clever enough to be able to answer it properly for you though, but do let me know if you find out as it's an interesting point.
@@dsesuk Exactly this is the point. The lightning strike not looks before if the line "blue", "brown" or "yellow/green". BTW: The strike technically starts on earth to the sky, only the "lightning" goes back from sky to earth. Power lines have plus and minus inside, change every 50 or 60 times (That means "Hertz" normally.) So the "neutral" is not "earth" - so they change the name since long time ago. Mean in "neutral" pulsed the + and - every 50 times too - opposite the "life" leg. So it is correct to save both cable legs of course.
Interesting video thanks. I rewired a bungalow following a lightning strike about 20 years ago. The end gable and part of the roof were reduced to a pile of hardcore in the garden where it hit direct and the cables had just been vaporised in places. The consumer unit and the dnos equipment were completely fcuked beyond repair. Don't know as a little plug in SPD would have made a big difference.😂
For direct lightning strikes, you'd need bigger protection such as a lightning rod and a type-1 SPD to save from damage. You're right that my little yellow dongle won't do much if my roof is being blown off, but if an indirect strike occurs close by and some other poor bugger loses their roof, then any surge event introduced locally to the grid should be squashed by my type-2 SPD, unlike for my neighbours who may be ringing up their home insurance companies to report fried electrical goods. I haven't seen first hand the effects of a direct strike, but it sounds interesting (from an electrician's point of view at least!) When I was a kid in the '70's, the only high-end electrical equipment we had was a colour TV in a woodgrain effect cabinet, and accepted wisdom was you unplugged it from the aerial socket when a thunderstorm was in the area: that was about as much protection as you needed!
@@dsesuk Yeah right. My Mom did same at every heavy thunder storm. I make same in my rented appartment all the time till the 90's. Never forget to put in the analog phone line after it - or do you have a quit day later. ;-)) The lightning strike protection is not good here in Germany. The most people want save money costs at the wrong places. :-(
These devices are available from China for pocket change with an extremely similar design. Not that I would trust them, but it makes it cheaper to buy the devices for testing purposes. It would be very interesting to see what would happen if one of the cheap ones was connected to the output of your Jacob's ladder. Would it really divert power to earth or would it just blow up?
Fantastic!!! Entertaining & informative video thank you Mr Savoury. May your nibbles always be cheesy. Have a Happy Christmas; wishing you Peace & Prosperity in 2019 and beyond.
Brilliant video, as always. Surely one could get one of the house staff or better still one of the grounds keepers out to clean the battlements and clear out the moat...Suits you SIR David ELE. CTR. ICI. AN!!! Oh, yes suits you indeed....🤣🤣 Re Lp I'm slightly disappointed that you didn't make a "Wheel of Lp", give it a spin and let the electrical gods decide.... 'course you could just cut out the middle man and make a "Wheel of CRL"
The surge event these Type-2 devices protect against are very short but sharp spikes. When they occur, the suppression components in the SPD dump the excess voltage to earth. It all happens very quickly - we're talking nanoseconds, so nothing prolonged enough to cause trouble for an upstream RCD. Because the overvoltage has been flattened out by being sent to earth, the overall voltage is a spike-free constant and your sensitive devices avoid getting zapped.
Yes, as of 18th Edition Amendment 1 in force at this time, SPDs are recommended but not required. Personally, I fit them as standard as I think they're better to have than not, but then I fit only a handful of consumer units per year.
@@marktime61 Interesting - I haven't been coding them on my reports, although I have been putting them in as a matter of course when replacing consumer units.
14:22 im not a sparky, why would you want to put the SPD on the load side of the RCD? woudln't this trip the RCD? or is that the point? To me with my limited understanding, the SPD will create (allow) a large flow of current through only one of the conductors, so thats going to trip the RCD. Dont we want to do that before the RCD? I woudl imagine we want to send surges to ground without creating more nuiscance trips. Please someone explain in basic terminology. cheers all. edit: im askign in the situation where the surge comes from the grid, not from within the building or premises.
To be honest, it's rare that one would install an SPD in this way, although the SY2D is claimed to be suited to be hanging off an RCD. On most SPD boards you buy, the surge device is installed before any RCDs. We fit only RCBO boards now, so there's no common RCD with the SPD connected to it, although that wasn't the setup I had in my home when I retrofitted this one. A year later, I changed my configuration to one with AFDD/RCBOs, but that's another video! As for your question, the sort of surge transients we're talking about that a Type-2 can protect you from tend to be measured in microseconds and occur within a fraction of an AC cycle, so the overvoltage is dumped and any fault current is too quick and too small for other devices to have time to react.
Hi David them non priority shower units look like a nice bit of kit how do you go about installing those. Can they be feed of a mcb from main c.u or do they need to come direct from mains with 25mm tails and are they plastic or metal
The Garo ones are plastic and you'd usually supply it from a spare fuseway on the main board. Mine is supplied by a 40A MCB on the high integrity side of my board.
@@dsesuk ok mate. So 10 mm twin and earth cable. So we would need to source a metal one if installed now then. I had never heard of these until I watched your video 👍
I think you misunderstand the term "cowboy". If a person does not install something that is not legally required, but is recommended or can be disregarded under certain conditions means this person can interpret regs not a "cowboy".
Of course, you know what happened there was the age old tale of putting the bugger back together and then realising the busbar cover had been left off necessitating it all having to come apart again!
For a basic explanation: It's a varistor (I imagine), a device whose resistance varies with voltage. At nominal voltage (230, 110, whatever your localised norm is), it sits there doing nothing, but should a voltage surge come down the line, its resistance drops and it shorts out the spike. This is fine for quick surge events (lasting microseconds). A larger surge event may damage the device beyond repair which is why it has indicator windows to show if it's still in service and why it has a removable/replaceable mid-section. It sits in parallel, with the installation and has no effect on RCD's or MCB's.
The risk assessment method is pretty unusable, but Regulation 443.4 allows an exemption for 'single dwelling units where the total value of the installation and equipment therein does not justify such protection'... whatever you want to read into that! The way I see it, I'll offer it as an option on domestic consumer units and leave the client to decide whether or not the value of their installation and equipment is worth protecting!
@@dsesuk thanks for helping me to understand this nonsense.. I will do similar thing for my clients.. however cant see many going for it.. It's not the cheapest upgrade.. Specifically when it's "optional"
@@callimero2409 I guess the more rural the location, and the more tech gadgetry the homeowner has, the better value it will be to them. It depends if they figure a £65+VAT part is worth the peace of mind or not, but that's up to them to decide. Personally, I prefer to have one on my own home than not.
To be honest, for the price, I think they're a good idea although I think the likes of Hager are milking the price a bit. We had one job where their LED lamps kept failing, and after the third visit to replace lamps under warranty we said we'd insist on installing one of these SY2-D's in case it's a local surge event. Since that went in, we haven't been called back for any further failures. We have another such job this Friday which I hope to film and upload.
I can't say for sure Alvin, but it was something that was easy to try. Same with this job tomorrow where we've had three Philips LED lamp failures: I've never seen a Philips lamp fail, and we've fitted hundreds, so three on one site is suspicious. They have a swimming pool there, so maybe it's the pump switching, and they're also in a small village out in the sticks. It was interesting though that in the tech talk at Elex, the subject of premature LED lamp failure was one that came up as a scenario where SPD's can be helpful. Personally, I'd expect a surge event to affect perhaps more of the electronics on site, but it's only the lamps I supply that I'm responsible for and monitoring. As far as I know, it's still functional. These things can take many small hits before breaking down.
I was told by my Edmundsons branch manager that a new Hager board would be out this month with an SPD built in. Not sure if it's true, he promised to call me when it was on the shelves!
Still don't get how it disconnects? Does it cause red to trip or what as nothing goes through it. It's just at the end isn't it. Or am I missing the obvious
@@sandragingercat5990 So is my understanding, but then if I truly knew how such things worked, I wouldn't be scratting a living as a common or garden electrician!
@@sandragingercat5990 Yes, its basically an electronic device that conducts if the voltage exceeds a given value. The component inside is a Varistor (Goto RS Websitre and search Varistor and you will see examples and realise what a rip off these things are) connected to a fusible link and a sprung loaded visual indicator. The Varistor conducts to earth if it sees any voltage transients above its clamping voltage. Too much energy and the link melts changing the flag to red and disconnecting the varistor internally.
Is that the diagram at around the 14 minute mark? If so, that's how the manufacturer shows it connected in their accompanying instructions. Effectively, it's in parallel with all other circuits so should suppress a surge event that would otherwise apply to those circuits. I'd be interested to hear of your concerns though!
@@nickstocker5921 Sorry Nick, I wasn't ignoring you, I was waylaid by Guinness when your last message came in. You are correct, and that is the danger of drunken doodling I'm afraid. Alcohol and art programs do not mix! Sadly, I can't correct it on RUclips, but I have changed the image in the linked article on my website. Cheers!
@@nickstocker5921 Not really. Do you can found different RCDs manufactured. Do you can buy them for one till three phases, "N" at left or right side, and 'go in' on top or down. All depends the regularies of this special country where do you can buy them. So it is sometimes not good to use online trading for electrical things. Exakt for that the companies labelled "N", "L1", "PE", aso. too. In Germany and Thailand the products have a wiring diagramm at the side or at extra card.
SURELY THE OVERHEAD IS FITTED WITH LIGHTNING ARRESTERS YOU CAN SPOT THEM ALL OVER THE PLACE AROUND HERE IN THE FIELDS AND WHEN WE HAVE ANY TROUBLE YOU CAN HEAR THE BANG BECAUSE THEY HAVE A SMALL EXPLOSIVE CHARGE IN THEM IT SEEMS TO ME A LOT OF THE REGULATIONS ARE NOT TO PROTECT PEOPLE BUT TO MAKE THE JOB MORE EXPENSIVE FOR YOU GUYS AND PEOPLE BLAME YOU LADS WHEN YOU QUOTE FOR WORK
Great Video ........I have been doing this Sh*t for 40 years and can't help thinking the people who write this stuff are desperately trying to justify their jobs .....just looking for stuff to change Grrr
Forty years also. Not only to justify their own existence, but they deliberately write them so no one can understand them. This is so they can then sell you a course for £200 and an 'On-Site' guide for another £30. Oh and a set of guidance notes for another £35 EACH. And you just know the first amendment is just around the corner. F**kers!
Funny, the Daily Fail ran a piece saying train drivers were earning about £150,000 as well. I can attest that that most certainly isn't true. Take everything in that paper with a pinch of salt.
Anybody else seeing the RCD in the wiring diagram shown in middle of the video connected around the wrong way. It's correct on the video still so is this a whiskey joke I'm not getting.
Just spotted that BigClive did a tear down on a clone here: ruclips.net/video/FQXecTM8yuo/видео.html so maybe £5 rather than £64. Only one MOV inside combined with a crude breaker that relies on melting a spring loaded solder joint.
Odd device. Most suspicious. Re LEDs failing due to suspected spikes - clearly these aren't earth spikes - so I'm suggesting wiring this funky device L->L and E->N and not use the N terminal on it. It'll then only function on L-N spikes - which should be the only spikes equipment sees - apart from lightning blowing the gable end out - then who'd give a toss if a LED failed ? The good news - I've found the scope. I'll see what RCD trip times I get - later today, perhaps - after I've been to bed - then maybe leave it monitoring the mains for spikes. I knew you'd like the idea of disconnecting the supply with bolt crops.
This little yellow widget won't protect from a direct strike, a lightning rod and type 1 surge protector would be needed for that. This fellow is supposed to squash small surges on the line that might damage electronic equipment.
David Savery Electrical Services surely even a type 1 doesn’t stop strike? I was under the impression if you’re house is hit by lightening it gets fried regardless of what you have in place. Maybe I’m wrong
@@Callllum Lightning protection isn't something I've ever had to install or work with, so I'm not best placed to answer, but a lightning rod should provide direct protection from the strike itself by channelling it to earth instead of it passing through the building, while the SPD is there to squash the noise induced onto the electrical system to prevent the electrical accessories and building wiring. My understanding is that direct strikes require this two-part protection for the sake of the structure and the devices within.
It followed on from my last video, so perhaps you have to appear with a scruffy haircut, working on a Saturday in a broom cupboard and wearing a free Professional Electrician T-shirt picked up at a trade show for them to take pity on your wardrobe choices!
That calculation makes me laugh. Pretty ignorant of real life, unless aimed exclusively at developers and major overhaul work. It reminds me of a soundness testing procedure for domestic gas that's recently been rolled out by a major company, for permissible leaks where the meter volume has been decreased (which would usually involve capping the installation as dangerous even though it probably isn't). It's expected that you know the length and diameter of all the pipework in the installation, ie that which is buried in walls and ceilings. When I asked how this could possibly be done, I was told to "make a best guestimate." My lord. We're guesstimating whether a situation is dangerous! Exactly the same shortsightedness shown in the 18th Edition thinking that retrofitters could possibly work out the HV length. Unless you have a Grid guy on site with you to work out what HV network you're supplied from, how do you have a hope?! Must have been written by a guy who lives on a farm and can walk the full length of his DNO connection by handrailing pole to pole back to the sub.
It was written by a committee determined to cover it's own back. "look, we're not *forcing* you to do this" they can say, pointing at the get-out equation, while actually forcing you to do it.
Utter waste of money, only people benefitting are manufacturers! Lighting strikes where ever it wants, that map is BS!! If you have height end electrical equipment, fit one. Otherwise don’t bother
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Best educational video I have seen for a long time, made me laugh so much as I have just got out of the trade after 35 years. I gave most of my 16th edition test equipment ( probably now non complaint) to a new apprentice going through the 18th edition who is now having nightmares as he now has to do CAD as well. I worked in Thailand in 1999, tried to get connector blocks for some lighting and the wholesaler said "No not have, just twist and tape, not have connector". I wish good luck to all the new guys taking up this industry in the UK, no fun any more! Before you make a comment I was an electrical inspector under the 16th edition in the commercial world, so I new my stuff then, now just DILLIGAF comes to mind. Happy days.
This is definately your BEST EVER VIDEO if this has been filmed in a fluid state and not scripted, I would definately say that you are wasted pushing bits of wire into holes, maybe at Part 16.39 you could have slowed your speach down, as it did sound like fast waffle from an auto cue, but 10 out of 10 for covering this obscure product and for covering it so well - excellent work!
Mr Spence Eng
Very kind of you sir, thank you for the feedback.
very keen to get one, often lightning damage here, i suppose you could be unlucky and get a hit then the device blows and there's still some juice left in the hit to damage other devices, or there could be a second surge on same storm. My main concern is protecting an expensive solar inverter.
Low cost,!! I buy these in Spain for 23€ and believe it or not, they are a basic varistor that costs a couple of cents to buy, but they work,! Most quality electronic goods like TVs and Aircon have a varister incorporated on the circuit board near the supply which blows rendering the thing 'broken' and in need of major repair! So by popping in a new 20cent part and charging (sucks in teeth....) 80€ you can clean up quite nicely!😀
Thanks David.....my brain has just melted listening to that risk assessment , get the brandy bottle out quick.....😳😳😳
Cheers.....👍
Your a funny man. Really love your entertaining and educational videos. Whoooo those calculations
This was another great video. Thank you for going to such great detail that we can all follow along.
Love the insert of you with the bottle.....summed up the calculation nicely
marky d indeed, he wins the award for “most appropriate use of the squeaky bum sound effect”
It can go in my trophy cabinet next to my 'Massive Prat' award.
SPD should be installed next to main switch i believe, than this way it will protect the circuits
Your an absolute legend, really appreciate the videos, please keep up the good work
Jolly kind of you to say so, thank you James.
The formula would seem to push most households out of the requirement for surge protection devices but the requirement to protect cultural heritage may be significant. UNESCO considers listed buildings to be part of the cultural and historic heritage of the UK and we are UNESCO signatory. There are about 500,000 listed building and structures in the uk and this looks like it makes surge protection a requirement in these buildings.
Nicely done! Thank you for the video, makes a lot more sense than the regs!
Great video, thanks. What a surprise to find an equation in 18th Edition that no one will be able to work out ! Who writes these regs?
“Hello Mr DNO, an you please tell me the line lengths to my property from the nearest HV tower?......hello ?” Click. 🤬
We used this system on our wind turbines back in the 90's.
How did we ever get by without them ,or indeed 443.4 I mean were buildings blowing up all over the place cant say I have noticed
maybe not that serious i seen a few strikes direct (not that spd can stop that ) but transient voltages can damage expensive equipment maybe not blow it up but just stop working now i never seen this myself so its just a theory in my head, most equipment is rated to 1.5kv , i think this is a manufacturer forcing the reg thro and especially insurance companies maybe the dno know summit we do not at this time
In a-level physics, the calculations where you just make an educated guess for unknown are called "fermi estimates" after someone who was able to calculate the power of a nuclear bomb test by just dropping pieces of ripped paper at the right time.Basically it gives you a result correct to an order of magnitude which may or may not be useful...
Known outside of physics circles as "pissing in the wind!"
It's certainly doesn't seem very useful to figure out for sure if it is needed or not. One would hope the official requirements for when certain devices were needed would be clear!
Brilliant Video David . . Good to see you've reached the same conclusion as I did regarding SPD's i.e practically everywhere will need one. Keep up the good work.
Hi David, another great channel to help us poor strugling sparkys. I'm afraid I have nothing to add but I think you did spark off one of my pet hates. - If I heard correctly; at some point you said an earth conductor of 6mm squared is required. I asume you meant 6sq mm. As the former is six times the size of the later, the difference is significant. Keep up the good work please.
Good point. As the wife will attest, I'm always exaggerating sizes.
If installing on a TN-C-S / PME supply do you still need a double unit like in the video, Is a single unit (L - E only) ok due to the fact that PE & N are joined together so why do you need a neutral connection?
Example of a single unit: www.conrad.com/p/eaton-167593-spct2-2801-surge-arrester-surge-protection-for-switchboards-20-ka-1-pcs-1716860?WT.srch=1&vat=true
Just came across your site, loving it fun & informative 👍
Made more sense than regs good video👍👍👍
Great video dave 7:52 😂
Thanks. Both informative, and entertaining!
Great info and I must admit I had the same reaction to the formula 😄
Why are some SPD's two module and others 1-module?
Hi David just been to a NAPIT “awareness” road show concerning SPDs and you’ve better explained what’s needed in your vid than the microphone wearing “expert” had to say.
I’ll recommend them to customers but it’s up to them, simples.
I knew that equation was hooky when he said”contact western power for the information” especially the fact they don’t know if a property is PME or not 😄 might as well ring time team and ask Tony Robinson 🙄
I’m going to ask the client to sign a statement if they don’t want a SPD just to cover myself, you know 😉
One last thing, if your fitting it to the board is it a minor works cert that’s required as technically it’s a new circuit?
Brilliant video keep swigging the scotch😊
I'm glad you found my chuntering useful! As far as I'm concerned, I'll let my customers decide whether or not they want to fork out the extra for an SPD. Hopefully, they'll soon start coming as standard with new consumer units, but I can't force people to take them, and the Regs provide that get-out clause for domestic properties. In the end, I have to stay competitive, and I don't want to lose jobs because some cowboy can undercut me by leaving out the SPD while I insist on it being fitted. Regarding the cert, I think if I were to retrofit one I would personally cover it on an EIC as (technically) it is a new circuit and a change to the consumer unit even though the installation may be relatively minor in itself. An EIC will certainly cover your arse.
Excellent video, makes surge protection a little clearer. Would appreciate a video on SPD’s & TT systems. Also a video on the use of types of RCD’s, within a standard installation. I have spoken to the niceic helpline regarding the new regulations concerning RCD types & that didn’t clear anything up either. You also mention that you have used a contactor for the shower & electric vehicle. I would be interested in how you have done this.
Funnily enough, someone else was asking about the shower/car charger contactor, so I'll put a vid together soon on that!
Since the varistor module is removable without removing the cu cover, could that allow fingers access to a live busbar? Less a problem if there is a (e.g.) mcb either side. In your setup the spd was the end device and a 2 module gap, a not uncommon scenario.
£60++ for a stack of varistors seems a high price.
Also the initial high normal-state resistance does drop as they arrest surges, after a number of years they may continuously draw a small amount of current (but this is why there end of life warning lights).
Very good points Peter, and yes, having just yanked my module out, I can confirm that if it was left without replacement then someone could stick their finger around and onto a live busbar if the neighbouring ways are blank.
Dear sir.l loved your video.the tech was great,and loved your humer.keep up the superb work and bids.Cher's Steve.
Very kind, thank you Stephen.
Wow I am impressed that the folks at Edmundson, gave you time to shrug their shoulders. Normally when I go in they like to let you patiently wait for what feels like forever before they grace you with a glance. And disappointed at the lack of freebie hats you got for the rest of us, shame on you David 😋. Oh and great video by the way 👍🏻
I have been looking for that map can you pop a link on thanks
Great videos David. I’ve asked this question on another thread but here goes. I’m thinking what’s the point in spds on the neutral?. Neutral is already grounded to earth in tncs and tns back to the supply transformer. so putting a spd on the neutral in a property is unnecessarily doubling up. Double bonding if you like. Mmmmm
Hi Danny. What I know about surge protection is entirely contained in this video I'm afraid. I'm not sure, but I suppose an indirect lightning strike could affect the neutral, especially on a TNS or TT installation. I'm not clever enough to be able to answer it properly for you though, but do let me know if you find out as it's an interesting point.
@@dsesuk Exactly this is the point. The lightning strike not looks before if the line "blue", "brown" or "yellow/green". BTW: The strike technically starts on earth to the sky, only the "lightning" goes back from sky to earth. Power lines have plus and minus inside, change every 50 or 60 times (That means "Hertz" normally.) So the "neutral" is not "earth" - so they change the name since long time ago. Mean in "neutral" pulsed the + and - every 50 times too - opposite the "life" leg.
So it is correct to save both cable legs of course.
Interesting video thanks. I rewired a bungalow following a lightning strike about 20 years ago. The end gable and part of the roof were reduced to a pile of hardcore in the garden where it hit direct and the cables had just been vaporised in places. The consumer unit and the dnos equipment were completely fcuked beyond repair. Don't know as a little plug in SPD would have made a big difference.😂
For direct lightning strikes, you'd need bigger protection such as a lightning rod and a type-1 SPD to save from damage. You're right that my little yellow dongle won't do much if my roof is being blown off, but if an indirect strike occurs close by and some other poor bugger loses their roof, then any surge event introduced locally to the grid should be squashed by my type-2 SPD, unlike for my neighbours who may be ringing up their home insurance companies to report fried electrical goods. I haven't seen first hand the effects of a direct strike, but it sounds interesting (from an electrician's point of view at least!) When I was a kid in the '70's, the only high-end electrical equipment we had was a colour TV in a woodgrain effect cabinet, and accepted wisdom was you unplugged it from the aerial socket when a thunderstorm was in the area: that was about as much protection as you needed!
@@dsesuk Well surely your SPD will protect all neighbouring houses on the same phase as well.... won't it ? ;)
@@dsesuk Yeah right. My Mom did same at every heavy thunder storm. I make same in my rented appartment all the time till the 90's. Never forget to put in the analog phone line after it - or do you have a quit day later. ;-))
The lightning strike protection is not good here in Germany. The most people want save money costs at the wrong places. :-(
These devices are available from China for pocket change with an extremely similar design. Not that I would trust them, but it makes it cheaper to buy the devices for testing purposes. It would be very interesting to see what would happen if one of the cheap ones was connected to the output of your Jacob's ladder. Would it really divert power to earth or would it just blow up?
Hmm.... that might be interesting. I'm not sure I'd want to be anywhere near it though!
@@dsesuk Can't say I would either :)
Fantastic!!! Entertaining & informative video thank you Mr Savoury. May your nibbles always be cheesy.
Have a Happy Christmas; wishing you Peace & Prosperity in 2019 and beyond.
Brilliant video, as always.
Surely one could get one of the house staff or better still one of the grounds keepers out to clean the battlements and clear out the moat...Suits you SIR David ELE. CTR. ICI. AN!!! Oh, yes suits you indeed....🤣🤣
Re Lp I'm slightly disappointed that you didn't make a "Wheel of Lp", give it a spin and let the electrical gods decide.... 'course you could just cut out the middle man and make a "Wheel of CRL"
How does it actually protect your board/ components it doesn't turn off your main switch or rcd when there's a surge ?
The surge event these Type-2 devices protect against are very short but sharp spikes. When they occur, the suppression components in the SPD dump the excess voltage to earth. It all happens very quickly - we're talking nanoseconds, so nothing prolonged enough to cause trouble for an upstream RCD. Because the overvoltage has been flattened out by being sent to earth, the overall voltage is a spike-free constant and your sensitive devices avoid getting zapped.
So as of May 2021 are these still advisory (as opposed to mandatory) on Domestic houses and Rental properties?
Yes, as of 18th Edition Amendment 1 in force at this time, SPDs are recommended but not required. Personally, I fit them as standard as I think they're better to have than not, but then I fit only a handful of consumer units per year.
@@dsesuk thanks David. It’s just the EIRC report on a rental dwelling flagged as C3 and now tenant wants one :-)
@@marktime61 Interesting - I haven't been coding them on my reports, although I have been putting them in as a matter of course when replacing consumer units.
Are you sure?
SPD, which can be disconnected because RCD tripped?
14:22 im not a sparky, why would you want to put the SPD on the load side of the RCD? woudln't this trip the RCD? or is that the point? To me with my limited understanding, the SPD will create (allow) a large flow of current through only one of the conductors, so thats going to trip the RCD. Dont we want to do that before the RCD? I woudl imagine we want to send surges to ground without creating more nuiscance trips. Please someone explain in basic terminology. cheers all. edit: im askign in the situation where the surge comes from the grid, not from within the building or premises.
To be honest, it's rare that one would install an SPD in this way, although the SY2D is claimed to be suited to be hanging off an RCD. On most SPD boards you buy, the surge device is installed before any RCDs. We fit only RCBO boards now, so there's no common RCD with the SPD connected to it, although that wasn't the setup I had in my home when I retrofitted this one. A year later, I changed my configuration to one with AFDD/RCBOs, but that's another video! As for your question, the sort of surge transients we're talking about that a Type-2 can protect you from tend to be measured in microseconds and occur within a fraction of an AC cycle, so the overvoltage is dumped and any fault current is too quick and too small for other devices to have time to react.
@@dsesuk hey david thanks for taking the time to explain.
very good
Hi David them non priority shower units look like a nice bit of kit how do you go about installing those. Can they be feed of a mcb from main c.u or do they need to come direct from mains with 25mm tails and are they plastic or metal
The Garo ones are plastic and you'd usually supply it from a spare fuseway on the main board. Mine is supplied by a 40A MCB on the high integrity side of my board.
@@dsesuk ok mate. So 10 mm twin and earth cable. So we would need to source a metal one if installed now then. I had never heard of these until I watched your video 👍
But this is HOW I get my insurance company to replace all my electrical goods every few years ;)
I think you misunderstand the term "cowboy". If a person does not install something that is not legally required, but is recommended or can be disregarded under certain conditions means this person can interpret regs not a "cowboy".
Did you ever up the 16 mcb to a 32amp?
Great video... Do you not have a busbar cover for that model CU? 🤔⚠️
Of course, you know what happened there was the age old tale of putting the bugger back together and then realising the busbar cover had been left off necessitating it all having to come apart again!
Fucking hilarious and informative. Maybe see you on the comedy channel soon. Subscribed. Thanks.
Thanks for the sub!
No ones explained to me yet how the device protects the connected equipment? Do the rcds trip, what if you have rcbos ?
For a basic explanation: It's a varistor (I imagine), a device whose resistance varies with voltage. At nominal voltage (230, 110, whatever your localised norm is), it sits there doing nothing, but should a voltage surge come down the line, its resistance drops and it shorts out the spike. This is fine for quick surge events (lasting microseconds). A larger surge event may damage the device beyond repair which is why it has indicator windows to show if it's still in service and why it has a removable/replaceable mid-section. It sits in parallel, with the installation and has no effect on RCD's or MCB's.
Thx David that makes it all very clear !!!
Hi, just to make sure i understand this right,
It is not forced to install spd in domestic DB.. unless your risk assessment will give you high number?
The risk assessment method is pretty unusable, but Regulation 443.4 allows an exemption for 'single dwelling units where the total value of the installation and equipment therein does not justify such protection'... whatever you want to read into that! The way I see it, I'll offer it as an option on domestic consumer units and leave the client to decide whether or not the value of their installation and equipment is worth protecting!
@@dsesuk thanks for helping me to understand this nonsense..
I will do similar thing for my clients.. however cant see many going for it..
It's not the cheapest upgrade..
Specifically when it's "optional"
Also found this video.. fairly helpful for installation
ruclips.net/video/iHFMB5orgk8/видео.html
@@callimero2409 I guess the more rural the location, and the more tech gadgetry the homeowner has, the better value it will be to them. It depends if they figure a £65+VAT part is worth the peace of mind or not, but that's up to them to decide. Personally, I prefer to have one on my own home than not.
@@dsesuk that's not bad for whole home protection if you consider individual surge protector extensions can be £20-30+ for a decent brand.
This needed in the Philippines I have seen problem with surge. .there they also have no earth. .bad news. .
i am new to your channel but good on you.
And you're most welcome here Darren!
More clarity is needed for when SPD's are required. The CRL formula will almost always dictate an SPD is needed. The word cash cow comes to mind.
To be honest, for the price, I think they're a good idea although I think the likes of Hager are milking the price a bit. We had one job where their LED lamps kept failing, and after the third visit to replace lamps under warranty we said we'd insist on installing one of these SY2-D's in case it's a local surge event. Since that went in, we haven't been called back for any further failures. We have another such job this Friday which I hope to film and upload.
@@dsesuk So you think the overvoltage was shortening the lamp life, is the SPD still functional?
I can't say for sure Alvin, but it was something that was easy to try. Same with this job tomorrow where we've had three Philips LED lamp failures: I've never seen a Philips lamp fail, and we've fitted hundreds, so three on one site is suspicious. They have a swimming pool there, so maybe it's the pump switching, and they're also in a small village out in the sticks. It was interesting though that in the tech talk at Elex, the subject of premature LED lamp failure was one that came up as a scenario where SPD's can be helpful. Personally, I'd expect a surge event to affect perhaps more of the electronics on site, but it's only the lamps I supply that I'm responsible for and monitoring. As far as I know, it's still functional. These things can take many small hits before breaking down.
I can see the price dropping quickly on these and being included in the consumer units in the near future. Bet there call then 18th edition boards 😂
I was told by my Edmundsons branch manager that a new Hager board would be out this month with an SPD built in. Not sure if it's true, he promised to call me when it was on the shelves!
Yep. On the shelves now by Hager.
please I need help to connect this
Siemens - TPS3A1220VX02-1 Phase Surge Protection Device, 120/240VAC can you please help me....
Sorry Larry, I have no familiarity with this particular kit. Maybe someone here in the comments can assist?
Still don't get how it disconnects? Does it cause red to trip or what as nothing goes through it. It's just at the end isn't it. Or am I missing the obvious
It doesn't disconnect anything, it reduces an overvoltage when such is presented to the installation.
David Savery Electrical Services so it dumps to earth ?
@@sandragingercat5990 So is my understanding, but then if I truly knew how such things worked, I wouldn't be scratting a living as a common or garden electrician!
@@sandragingercat5990 Yes, its basically an electronic device that conducts if the voltage exceeds a given value. The component inside is a Varistor (Goto RS Websitre and search Varistor and you will see examples and realise what a rip off these things are) connected to a fusible link and a sprung loaded visual indicator. The Varistor conducts to earth if it sees any voltage transients above its clamping voltage. Too much energy and the link melts changing the flag to red and disconnecting the varistor internally.
Pls send wirings diagram
Is the diagram showing type 2 spd correct? I don’t think this would work?
Is that the diagram at around the 14 minute mark? If so, that's how the manufacturer shows it connected in their accompanying instructions. Effectively, it's in parallel with all other circuits so should suppress a surge event that would otherwise apply to those circuits. I'd be interested to hear of your concerns though!
Yes, perhaps being a bit facetious but the connections don’t look quite right?
Main switch should go to top of rcd, then bottom of rcd to mcb?
@@nickstocker5921 Sorry Nick, I wasn't ignoring you, I was waylaid by Guinness when your last message came in. You are correct, and that is the danger of drunken doodling I'm afraid. Alcohol and art programs do not mix! Sadly, I can't correct it on RUclips, but I have changed the image in the linked article on my website. Cheers!
@@nickstocker5921 Not really. Do you can found different RCDs manufactured. Do you can buy them for one till three phases, "N" at left or right side, and 'go in' on top or down. All depends the regularies of this special country where do you can buy them. So it is sometimes not good to use online trading for electrical things. Exakt for that the companies labelled "N", "L1", "PE", aso. too. In Germany and Thailand the products have a wiring diagramm at the side or at extra card.
Does it matter what size mcb feeds the spd?
16 - 32A is usually the size used. Not that it would pull anything like that unless it breaks down and fails short circuit.
You make me laugh, I like the bottle and the fart.
SURELY THE OVERHEAD IS FITTED WITH LIGHTNING ARRESTERS YOU CAN SPOT THEM ALL OVER THE PLACE AROUND HERE IN THE FIELDS
AND WHEN WE HAVE ANY TROUBLE YOU CAN HEAR THE BANG BECAUSE THEY HAVE A SMALL EXPLOSIVE CHARGE IN THEM
IT SEEMS TO ME A LOT OF THE REGULATIONS ARE NOT TO PROTECT PEOPLE BUT TO MAKE THE JOB MORE EXPENSIVE FOR YOU GUYS
AND PEOPLE BLAME YOU LADS WHEN YOU QUOTE FOR WORK
I like this guy
Me too.
Good vids David 👀😂
Great Video ........I have been doing this Sh*t for 40 years and can't help thinking the people who write this stuff are desperately trying to justify their jobs .....just looking for stuff to change Grrr
Forty years also. Not only to justify their own existence, but they deliberately write them so no one can understand them. This is so they can then sell you a course for £200 and an 'On-Site' guide for another £30. Oh and a set of guidance notes for another £35 EACH. And you just know the first amendment is just around the corner. F**kers!
Mark ....what can I say 😂😂😂
Thanks Dave
Funny, the Daily Fail ran a piece saying train drivers were earning about £150,000 as well. I can attest that that most certainly isn't true. Take everything in that paper with a pinch of salt.
lmao, Fantastic video David 👍
Since when has electrical regulations been Law
Since never. BS7671 is non-statutory, although following it keeps you on the right side of EAWR which does wield the ol' law-hammer.
So you just take a 6mm earth to your met that right
Yes, that's correct.
cheers .....
Anybody else seeing the RCD in the wiring diagram shown in middle of the video connected around the wrong way. It's correct on the video still so is this a whiskey joke I'm not getting.
Just spotted that BigClive did a tear down on a clone here: ruclips.net/video/FQXecTM8yuo/видео.html so maybe £5 rather than £64. Only one MOV inside combined with a crude breaker that relies on melting a spring loaded solder joint.
👍👍👍👍👍
Odd device. Most suspicious. Re LEDs failing due to suspected spikes - clearly these aren't earth spikes - so I'm suggesting wiring this funky device L->L and E->N and not use the N terminal on it. It'll then only function on L-N spikes - which should be the only spikes equipment sees - apart from lightning blowing the gable end out - then who'd give a toss if a LED failed ?
The good news - I've found the scope. I'll see what RCD trip times I get - later today, perhaps - after I've been to bed - then maybe leave it monitoring the mains for spikes.
I knew you'd like the idea of disconnecting the supply with bolt crops.
Thumb up for 7:53! ROLF
Not a member of the local golfing set? Pish! What rot.
8:07 hahahah yeah this days apparently any trade
I’m at a loss? Absolute zero device will protect a home if it’s hit by a lightning strike
This little yellow widget won't protect from a direct strike, a lightning rod and type 1 surge protector would be needed for that. This fellow is supposed to squash small surges on the line that might damage electronic equipment.
David Savery Electrical Services surely even a type 1 doesn’t stop strike? I was under the impression if you’re house is hit by lightening it gets fried regardless of what you have in place. Maybe I’m wrong
@@Callllum Lightning protection isn't something I've ever had to install or work with, so I'm not best placed to answer, but a lightning rod should provide direct protection from the strike itself by channelling it to earth instead of it passing through the building, while the SPD is there to squash the noise induced onto the electrical system to prevent the electrical accessories and building wiring. My understanding is that direct strikes require this two-part protection for the sake of the structure and the devices within.
like i said i am new but you dont take know s... and say how it is
Lolol....thanks.
I've haven't received anything free from the NICEIC? and I talk about them quite a bit on my channel.. 🤔 😈😈😈😈
It followed on from my last video, so perhaps you have to appear with a scruffy haircut, working on a Saturday in a broom cupboard and wearing a free Professional Electrician T-shirt picked up at a trade show for them to take pity on your wardrobe choices!
Lol
Hahahaha
That calculation makes me laugh. Pretty ignorant of real life, unless aimed exclusively at developers and major overhaul work. It reminds me of a soundness testing procedure for domestic gas that's recently been rolled out by a major company, for permissible leaks where the meter volume has been decreased (which would usually involve capping the installation as dangerous even though it probably isn't). It's expected that you know the length and diameter of all the pipework in the installation, ie that which is buried in walls and ceilings. When I asked how this could possibly be done, I was told to "make a best guestimate." My lord. We're guesstimating whether a situation is dangerous! Exactly the same shortsightedness shown in the 18th Edition thinking that retrofitters could possibly work out the HV length. Unless you have a Grid guy on site with you to work out what HV network you're supplied from, how do you have a hope?!
Must have been written by a guy who lives on a farm and can walk the full length of his DNO connection by handrailing pole to pole back to the sub.
It was written by a committee determined to cover it's own back. "look, we're not *forcing* you to do this" they can say, pointing at the get-out equation, while actually forcing you to do it.
Sad thing is some sad persons worked out this worthless academic nonsense. May as well fit them and save ageing prematurely.
Utter waste of money, only people benefitting are manufacturers! Lighting strikes where ever it wants, that map is BS!! If you have height end electrical equipment, fit one. Otherwise don’t bother
Get to the point mate!!
Get fucked mate.
@@dsesuk 😆😆😆😆
😕👎👎👎