Using a forward-mount winch to go backwards - what you don't know
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- Опубликовано: 20 сен 2024
- #reversewinching #winching #snatchblocks #4x4recovery #backwardswinching #LEGO
How can you winch backwards using a forward-pulling winch, how does it work, what are the real-world forces involved, and will it work for a real recovery? How many snatch blocks do you need?
All explained in this guide to Reverse Winching including a LEGO model!
There is a lot more to cover but the video was 25m long already, so will do a follow-up if there's demand. Post questions as comments.
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You have a wonderful presentation style. Technical, in depth, and no bulls. Most informative 4x4 channel out here.
Thanks please share 👍
This video is an excellent tutorial. In order to reduce the amount of work and time this takes I’ve just installed two receiver hitches and my winch can be moved easily front or back.
I just wrote the same thing! :-D
I solved this by putting receivers front and back and battery connections front and back - just need to get myself a big anderson connector set to make it quick to plug in. I can now which in or lower out in both directions and pull other items from either end of my rig. :-) All home built, too, 40x40x4mm winch cradle insert and 50x50x5 receivers. A bit smaller than the industry standard, but very close fitting and once bolted up tight, they work as one with no slop, play, rattles, movement, wear, noise, etc. Very sweet to see it come together - zinc plated 12.9 cap screws and button head cap screws and gloss black set it off a treat :-D Interesting video, though, for those that don't have that option. :)
Nice, but what happens if you can't remove the winch when you need it on the other bumper?
@@NulodPBall I can't imagine that ever happening in my use, but off road, I suppose it could. Pretty unlikely even then though. It sticks out a lot so you wouldn't ho offroading with it installed. It'd be stored in the vehicle and deployed for use as needed. Sub ideal for offroad use. If I was building a rig for serious off road use I'd have two winches permanently installed.
@@fredio54 I'm glad it works for you.
And you're right, most situations - having a second option mount point is hard to beat.
I just have found that you really don't find the downside to anything until you try it.
Like I watched someone learn the hard way: Never let anyone hook up to your front bumper or frame, to give you an assist when trying to unstick someone...the middle person's frame would squat under pressure until something obviously broke. The stuck persons bumper was at, or below ground level in a mud field...so if he was winchable, he just would have had to use a shovel first... but I think he should have used a shovel anyway before getting a pull.
I’m enjoying this. Thank you kid just got a Jeep and I’ve been trying to teach him so he doesn’t get hurt. 19 yr old know it all!
Glad to help, please share!
4 belts, 4 pulleys, 4 trees.. That's a lot of stuff required. The only good advice to prevent this is: don't go off-roading alone.
A winch front and rear would cover it.
Well yeah but some folks travel in the bush for reasons other than 4X4 fun, hunting, camping, working, exploring, impressing ladies, etc
@@Mudder1310 no it doesn’t…. I’ve been stuck for two days in a 4wd that had front/rear winch, anchors, the whole list, sometimes it just does matter how much gear you have. And yes, was my own fault. Got complacent, didn’t have have coffee, etc - plain simple, very avoidable
Your videos on winching and recovery are outstanding. I have shared them with many of my Jeeping friends.
Thank You, Thank You, Thank you
Wow a new Super Thanks record...that'll make a big difference to my earnings for today from this channel! I really appreciate the ST for the money but also the motivation!
Love the lego demonstration! A great idea!
Another way to think of that is that the winch is making the line shorter. The only way to shorten it is by moving the car back.
Now I have a limo. Win win!
Great video! But not practical in the real world.
I learnt this the hard way when I really needed to winch myself backwards up a near vertical hill, realised I didn't have enough pully blocks so I ended up running my winch rope under the vehicle, it worked and got us out of a serious situation but I bent the lip of my steel bar where the rope passes out from the fairlead to under the vehicle, not surprising due the sharp change of direction.
I since repaired and reinforced it with some steel tubing to make for a nice smooth angle for the rope to slide along, it works an absolute treat and makes for easy and safe reverse winch. Also saves having to carry all those extra heavy snatch blocks and gear.
Really enjoyed watching this. The way you explained it, made perfect sense. Another great video Robert!
Thank you very much for this informative video. I literally, completely at random, had an idea 3 days ago whether something like this would be possible and youtube gods dropped this into recommended so I did not even have to search for it. I know folks can use rear winches but that requires a ton of additional money to accomplish so using what you already have to get yourself out of a situation is awesome means of geometry and physics.
Brilliant! Thanks for your time and making these videos for the rest of us.
Glad you like them! Please share :-)
This is amazing. If I was caught (with enough rope!), I wouldn't have thought to do the double line at the back, and just ripped things off my car - Whilst making zero progress at the same time.
Try it, you’ll love it. Start a fire too.
I just chose to fit a rear winch one of the best mods I've done.
Fantastic, My father (Ex-military) showed me this set up years ago (I've never had to use this setup but I was always equipped just in case) I guess it was a matter of be sure you can go forward and not be forced to reverse ! Great to have numbers applied to really grasp what is actually happening ! Always great videos (This is the second in a row tonight) Thanks and be safe !
Thanks, appreciate the support, please share!
@@L2SFBC Not a problem, will do.
Great video. I travel solo most of the time and need to do self recovery. I have a Suzuki Grand Vitara and have been able to recover myself with a simple come a long so far. I have been thinking about an electric winch but mounting it as a portable and attaching to a 2 inch receiver front and rear on the rig. Thank you for the video.
Thanks please share!
A winch will save you a lot of time and energy.
Thank you for the scientifical analysis. Very interesting and practical! Looking forward for more material (books and videos).
Thanks Sassan please share 🙏
Great video. It's a topic that comes up regularly, especially when questioning the practicality of a front mounted winch. It's good to see that it is possible, but it certainly takes a lot of kit, knowledge and preperation. I think it is perhaps best to consider all other options first!
Agreed!
Great job, Robert! 4x the force to go backwards! That's going to work the winch. Hopefully, I'm not seriously stuck in the bush!
Fantastic. I have been thinking about this for years and glad you showed it was possible! Cheers.
Very good practical demonstration backed with hard figures.well done
Thank you Chris, would appreciate a share!
Well done Robert and thank you for parting with your knowledge. Cheers
Thank you, please share!
Robert, Thank you so very much in taking the time and money to teach people all over the world to be self- sufficient. Cheers
Thanks, please share :-)
3:35 I was really worried that the scales hook link would let go!!!
Nice demo Robert, and precise explanation as always.
Thanks please share 👍
Nice video. with all the accessories, extra line, shackles, and snatch blocks; probably could have purchased a rear winch and mounted it cheaper. It truly is a good video and a lot of time, money , energy, and thought process went into this video. I had to do a similar pull like your video in Honduras. Definitely was not as pretty. Made me come home to the United States and design a rear winch bumper for my Super Duty and Ford Raptor. Working on one for the Jeep Wrangler and Gladiator.
IMPRESSED WITH THE VIDEO. GOOD JOB
Thanks I agree it isn't something you do every time...but that one time you need it, handy to have in the bag of tricks 👍
Ive been yo Honduras. I can imagine, pretty remote down there.
Thank you appreciate that please share 👌
I'm so glad I found your channel. I'm glad you put a guide together on this topic. Thank you!
New Sub here. I wanted to say thank you for making these informational masterpieces. Very interesting stuff and very useful.
thank you!
You are the nerdiest 4wd guy I have subscribed to. Please take that as a compliment. Looking forward to more videos.
👍👍👍
Conpliment accepted 😄
We practiced the reverse winch on our refresher recovery weekend last week. We practiced your set up on a 15 to 20 degree smooth slope, but were a little unsure when the lines seemed to be very tight but no movement. So we tried it on a flat slope and saw the results. It appears like you say the winch has to generate a lot of force to overcome a little force to move the vehicle. We then decided to see the effect of adding an extra 2 snatch blocks in the rear set up to lessen the load. This made a significant difference and the vehicle moved a lot easier. Would be interesting to see your load examples for a set up with 2 extra snatch blocks at the rear. Reason being in real life you are more likely to be on a 20 degree uneven slope which would most probably be to much for the a winch with 2 rear snatch blocks.
We also did the triple line and Spanish Burton and added extra snatch blocks to reduce winch load to pull a simulated dead load vehicle. Made a huge difference. Roughly Calculated we had a winch to load of 1 to 8 with the Spanish Burton with a couple extra snatch blocks.
Great to hear! 15-20 degrees is a steep slope. Stand by for some friction analysis....
Hi Robert - I love your pictorial display of forces - we learn the same stuff in orthopaedic surgery for an old fashioned treatment known as traction, which involves string, pulleys, and a weight
Wow so cool to learn from different industries!!
ive always wondered how this was done. everyone puts a winch on the front but whenever ive been stuck ive always needed to be pulled out backwards
most people that put a winch on the front of a vehicle (for use and not looks) intend to go forward.
most people that use their winch do not intend on turning around as soon a the get stuck, the really want to concur the obstacle and keep moving...
FINALLY 😱 iv been trying to explain this for years with a diagram and nobody believes it’s possible 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻 Ps Excellent video well presented great models 👍🏻
Thanks please share :-)
Another great video, thanks Robert
That's just amazing ,thank you for making these videos.
You're welcome please share 😊
First-rate presentation and tutorial. Thank you - it’s very helpful to this winching newbie for sure. Subscribed!
Step 6: Make sure you space out any solid objects that are attached to the line like x blocks, bow shackles, knots, other pulleys... anything attached to the line that could accidentally travel with the line and be forced through your pulleys when the rope moves or even just stretches. This is sometimes referred to as 2 blocking.
Blew my mind. Great video and explanation
Thanks please share!
To reduce winch tensions you can ad another pulley at back (3:1 or 4:1 in place to 2:1) that will reduce a lot of tension and make the overall system a 2:1 pull👍 great video!!!
Yes I can't stop thinking how much better it would be adding the 'Spanish Burton' rig to the rear combination to it as well.
@@maxgood42 yes, it would be great for other video...
Really well done vid. Thanks for posting.
Thanks please share etc!
Quite a brilliant explanation of how the forces work... Thanks for the video! Another good one!
Thank you, very glad it was useful!
Fantastic Vid Robert. Well done. As usual, the detail is the best out there. Thanks for plumbing the depth of reverse winching and educating us all. I've always felt that it was a procedure that was great to know but would never really be used in anger that often. The only time I've used it was for my winching sideways video and at the time I set it up it didn't occur to me that I was actually setting up a reverse winch. Ah well we live and we learn. I want to know what tractive force can be generated by a 4wd in 4 situations. 40PSI tyre pressure on road and good gravel twin locked. Then same at 15PSI.
We shall find out! And for those who haven't seen it, here's Matt's reverse winch:
ruclips.net/video/SAtYKf8zcQw/видео.html
@@L2SFBC Thanks mate
Robert - I’d be keen to see the force difference that tire pressure generate. That is, how much more force can you generate with lower pressures. Love to see that graphed.
Also, the forces involved in snatch recovery. Will the load cells handle that?
Great video. Interesting to know the winch´s backward capability in terms of force.
great vid! much effort put into.👍
Thanks!
I've found it easier with a 3:1 at the back. The key is shortening the distance at the back faster than the distance at the front. Fiddle block at the back would be even better!
Excellent video Robert. I always wondered how that works. Have been in that situation before and had to get pulled out. Thanks again.
Thanks please share 👍
Fantastic video Robert, I learned a lot from this one.
Reverse winching, such a hot topic!
Great video. I'm putting together my kit for my travels. Thank you for your thorough explanation. I also wondered where you got the Lego car, that looks like a fun build.
The LEGO is a custom build. About to work on a video featuring Version 2 of that car and some others.
If you can document how you build the car I’d love to mimic the build? If you start with a kit and what additional pieces you use. I would be eternally grateful. Ciao
Stay tuned...
A good scientific approach to winching
Thanks please share!
Well done, great video, I'm selling all my 4wd stuff and getting some Lego.
Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
My pleasure! Please share :-)
We always ran the cable under the vehicle before going off roading. If you do this, then you don't need the snatch block out to the side of the car. The cable simply runs under the car.
This was very well presented and valuable to see!!!!
Thanks, please share etc!
Mind blown! 🤯
Great info and love your presentation!
Thanks so much! Please share :-)
This is why, after much research and agonising, I decided not to add around 150kg worth of electric winch and compatible steel bull bar and then worry over and pay for upgraded suspension. Instead decided on a 3 tonne pull Wyeth Scott hand winch, alloy snatch ring and X-lock. Yep, all recoveries will be as 'slow as molasses' in winter but the countering benefits are: Using the hooked snatch block supplied with the WS winch and the snatch ring I can pull in any direction in excess of 10 tonnes. Total weight added to vehicle when winch and associated tackle on board is less than one fifth of electric winch and bull bar. Can use the hand winch in numerous none 4wd applications. Finally, part of what I saved by not buying an electric winch, bull bar and suspension upgrade, I spent on two pairs of M@xtr@x which I figure, when used with a shovel, will be my way out in 90% of situations anyway.
Wow! That is what I call confidence in your abilities. To be all alone, and purposely stick yourself on your axles, and have the knowhow to extract your vehicle from a very tough spot.
I want to pull some trees down using a multiple pulley setup (Lets say using 2- 4 sheave pulley blocks, and maybe 6-8 more snatch blocks) and pulling them with a Bobcat skid steer. I have lots of trees to use as anchors, so that is not a problem. Could you give me some examples with the what the MA ratio would be, using say, the 2-4 ways and 2, or 4, or 6 snatch blocks. Just for this example, let's assume the Bobcat will exert 1000 lbs of force on the rope attached to it.
Thanks sincerely, Barry
Great job. The reality problem is the length of cable needed to preform the actual set up and the angles involved laterally and and incline decline. Still a great vid.
Thanks please share 👍
Once again thanks very much. I'd like some advice on recovery bags inflated with the exhaust. I'm sure you've already one so a referal would be great. 👍
I haven't made a video on that topic but I have written about it. I own one but never use it, there's better tools to carry in my view, even in sand.
EXCELLENT. VERY MUCH APPRECIATED.
You are 'GOOD'.
THANK You.
You're welcome!
You should check the load at the side re direct point. The line load will be great.
Works the other way around too :) I have a rear winch and no front winch
The reason why it works has nothing to do with power, it’s as simple as where can be slack taken out of the line
Excellent video! Learned a lot from you. Keep up the good work!
I used to just have my front mounted winch and usually needing to be winched backwards, drape the cable underneath and hook it to the rear hitch, letting it slide under the axles.
*Maybe* this works, but I suspect a small ATV 2500-lb winch that you could put on a receiver hitch would work even better. Maybe even a hand crank winch like you see on boat trailers would even be better than that that reverse winching thing you were trying.
Yes
Very informative. Thank you.
Glad it helped, please share!
Thank you Robert - another excellent video. I’m certainly keen on putting the measurement and science into recovery!
I particularly appreciated that you showed us the force required to pull your car directly with the other car as a baseline for comparing the force involved in the reverse winching. Significantly more force required for reverse winching!
But still a good option to have in the recovery toolbox!
this is awesome. also synthetic haters , recovery tow vehicles for semi recovery have synthetic ropes now and the drivers love them .
I really like these in-depth data-driven videos. Keep up the good work.
I have an idea for another load cell video. I'm not sure how good of data you can get because I think you might need a fairly high logging rate for this.
One thing I've always wondered about is the forces involved in using snatch straps and snatch ropes. Like the forces created at different speeds, ie. 0 kph (static pull) vs 5 kph vs 10 kph vs 15 kph. Also the force profile of different strengths and lengths of ropes and strap. As well as the difference in the force profile of the same length and similar MBS of a strap vs a rope.
Yes log rate is a concern there. But I have plans...
Have you thought of putting together a cheat sheet or a quick reference booklet with different diagrams and winching techniques?
l2sfbc.com/about-the-4wd-handbook/
l2sfbc.com/the-4wd-glovebox-guide/
@@L2SFBC Nice!!
Excellent video!
Thanks, please share!
Brilliant! thanks for the detailed video!
Brilliant video - thank you
Thanks please share 👍
Not sure about how to share( I'm a dinosaur 4wd Tutor that technology has left in its dust) but would love some tuition on how to spread your message.its a great example of figures supporting(or dispelling) theory.would like to talk sometime.Keep up the great tutorials
Ah ok ...copy this and paste it into Facebook and other places!
ruclips.net/video/nVnbPNyLu_c/видео.html
So good, thank you!
and if you have a older jeep without all the junk under it, just need a couple places to "slide" the cable down and under the body of the jeep (if you can one can build up a roller to fit to help guide the cable as needed). and keep on going to the rear. no snatch blocks needed.
Ha nice!
Awesome video thanks for sharing.
Thank you...and can you please share!
@@L2SFBC will do.
Excellent video.
Thanks please share!
Future video, the effect on rope stretch. Rope vs cable. Stretch vs effect on forces.
Excellent info
Thank you please share :-)
Thanks. I have wondered how to do this but couldn't visualize it.
Glad I could help! Please share :-)
Nice presentation. Prefer to drive 4x4 as opposed to 4x2. Add in the differential lockers and you can almost forget about the winch. Almost 😊
Thanks for the detailed vide, may help one day
Glad it helped!
Well done
Good video. A hand winch is also helpful
Sure is!
The more people pulling together the better the strength. Trees are us.
perfect example Y fixtures should be on both end for movable wenches
Love your job man 🍻
great videos. I'm just getting things gathered for the "just in case", ordered a winch as well. Maybe it'll never get used. better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it
Definitely!!!
@@L2SFBC I’ve watched 5 or more videos of yours today. Learning a lot and getting great ideas and “tools for my toolbox”
I'm so pleased to hear you find my work useful!
@@L2SFBC where can I get extra rope, maybe winch rope instead of snatch rope or straps? Just in case I need to fairlead a longer distance than my winch, straps and snatch rope will get me? thank you
Any rope supplier should be able to supply spliced lengths to order
My winch mounts via hitch. I got a set of 2/0 cables and posts on my battery for claiming. Just move the winch back and fourth.. good vid tho. Always wondered how it could be done if in a pinch.
That is by far the better way!
Hey Rob, great vid. Did my head in seeing a forward winch pulling the vehicle backwards. Would love to see the loads required to move a bogged vehicle via winch and snatch. And if you can test vehicles of differing weights as well would be awesome.
Stay tuned....
it depends on breaking strain of the rope/wire cable in use
base weight of vehicle is 2.5 ton, your gvm most likely see you at 4.5-6 ton
your breaking strain is 13.5 ton to 18 ton whether you are bogged or in your example beached on something!!! you typically times the weight 3 times to get your dead weight, yes you got yourself unstuck this time next time you might not be so lucky...
you generally have good info though like most people get stuff wrong when doing examples or stating something is base when you are talking about modification of a vehicle
at base weight 2.5 ton your recovery gear must be a min of 7.5 ton
Oh! Can you make a video about lifting vs pulling using your new tools!? 👍🏻👍🏻
"not used for lifting"
Oh and how many "kg" you need to pull different cars out of holes, mud, upphill and so on!
Yes, that's coming! Stay tuned...
Amazing info
Excellent thank you
Thanks please share 👍
I have finally acquired all the blocks, rope, shackles for this reverse pull, still need the X block.
X lock not essential just useful
Some really interesting information there, the only reverse winch method I had seen done before was the one demonstrated by Mad Matt on his channel, where you throw the line straight under the vehicle. To be honest I would never carry enough pulley's to use the method you have shown, if I was in a convoy with enough pulley's, chances are someone would be in a better position to winch me. That said, it is a valuable insight into the way the line loads up under a complicated rig, similar setups might be used to right a vehicle when you can't winch from the high side or something like that, so it's good to know.
Yes, here's Matt's video:
ruclips.net/video/SAtYKf8zcQw/видео.html
It looks like any movement that you are getting is just from stretching the rope and it being disproportionate between the front and rear.
Yes. It can't get any longer.
@@L2SFBC -- So, if you continued that for any distance, you would have a rope being broken... Less trouble to buy a cheap winch and install on a receiver hitch plate that you can put on the rear of the vehicle when necessary. Hell, I would guess that a 2500 lb ATV winch would give you more rear winching capability than that front and rear configuration...
i just run two winches... never have used the front honestly.
how you have enough line to do that is pretty crazy..
Mine has 150' of cable. Been on it since 1974.
What if you flip flop the pulley arrangement? Double pulley on the winch end and single on the other? Slow down the in speed but speed up the pull on the other end. I would think that would remove some resistance
Very interesting to see a scientific approach to the issues with figures obtained in a manner that are easily absorbed, which is very much helped by the excellent graphics and your model 4WD.
This has given me a lot to think about with our truck running 5.76 Tonne as weighed a few days ago. Still learning and now having seen this clip, I have a far greater understanding of what is needed.
Is it possible to contact you?
Thanks! Yes -> l2sfbc.com/contact/