BETA COMPARISON "SILENCE" 9c/5.15d
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- Опубликовано: 21 сен 2022
- Firstly, a massive thank you to Adam Ondra & Stefano Ghisolfi and their respective teams for letting me use their footage to create this video. Here's links to the footage I've used:
Adam Ondra YT Channel:
/ adamondra
Silence | World's Hardest Route 9c | Adam Ondra
• Silence | World's Hard...
Stefano Ghisolfi YT Channel:
/ stefanoghisolfitv
Stefano's Series:
[ First Steps | Silence | Stefano Ghisolfi
• First Steps | Silence ... ]
[ Game On | Silence | Stefano Ghisolfi
• Game On | Silence | St... ]
[ Breaking Beta | Silence | Stefano Ghisolfi
• Breaking Beta | Silenc... ]
[ How are the holds on Silence | Stefano Ghisolfi
• How are the holds on S... ]
Also, thank you to everyone involved in the productions. From filmmaker, to editors, to belayers!
Secondly, in this video we make a comparison between the way Adam Ondra & Stefano Ghisolfi climbed Silence, the hardest route in the world. We break the route down into parts and look at each individual section to see what differs between these two titans of the sport.
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/ emil_abrahamsson_
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Music from Musicbed.com
Those half speed Ondra screams 😆
He sounds like a moose or something hahah
When he finishes, he sounds like a whale😂
Heyo homies.
There's popped up a few comments about it being a bit early to speak and compare beta for the two climbers, so here's my thoughts:
Stefano shows that he's given at least 9 days, possibly up to a few weeks of efforts on the route. In my eyes that means he's started figuring out what really works for him. They are also very different heights, and have incredibly different strengths, which means you can't ever "really" compare the two. What works for Stefano will often not work for Adam, and vice versa.
I still think it's incredibly interesting to see these two climbers side by side!
Arguably, the new beta that Stefano finds is an extension of the time Adam spent on the route, since Stefano must have had an idea what all the moves could be like when he started trying it, unlike Adam. I'm certain he'll optimize things and learn more on the way to doing the route, but I wouldn't be surprised if he's settled very much on the beta, aside from some small potential tweaks, which is why I think it's interesting to compare what they have already!
When he finally goes for the send, I would be more than happy to do an analysis of Stefano pre-send VS Stefano after-send to see just how much has really changed!
EDIT:
There's been some comments about me calling Adam a "dynamic monster". Seems clarification is needed here.. Adam isn't a dyno-monster (there's even a video by Albert OK showcasing when he did a dyno statically in a competition) but his lead climbing is well defined by his extremely efficient dynamic movement, where precision and speed go together constantly. Of all the best lead climbers in the world, his pacing is almost always way way quicker than all the others, hence "dynamic monster" comment!
The fact that the easy part that is not even worth mentioning/showing for Adam and Stefano is 8b is just mind boggling
I couldn’t agree more, it’s absurd when you think about it
Talking about mind blowing, Ghisolfi was bouldering in Val Daone for a couple days this summer. There's a video of him resting and chalking on the worst hold of an 8a, in a place known for the insane stiffness of the grades. I climbed there, seen the boulder and find the notion outrageous.
In my experience recently on working a very long route : you never fully recover, even with a good kneebar, if you "went high in power endurance". I mean, you theorically could, but it would take like 30min to fully recover, if you got really pumped. Which means that in order to go back completely fresh, you have to get to the rest very moderately pumped, so that you stay some 5 or 10 minutes in the rest. Which is, yes, kinda insane for an 8b when you think about it but no so so crazy if you compare that to 9c. I've climbed 8b, but i can imagine that if i'm climbing 8c, and there's a 7b route to begin with, i could get used to do the 7b with very moderate fatigue and rest totally quite quickly on a good kneebar.
Actually, that's a pretty good test to the route : if you can't do the first part with a lot of ease, linking the whole thing is pretty unrealistic.
Oh you’ve climbed 8b huh
@@Kullcans We dont really care about doing 8b, i was taking that as a reference because this reasoning might not apply at lower levels : If you try to do a 6c, and have to do a 5b+ before, there's no way that the 5b+ will be a problem in any way. Same goes for 7c/6b+, i think.
An important detail about the pre-crux knee bar rest that only Adam can do is that he specifically trained his calves for 2 years to hold those rests to recover during the route.
Was gonna say the same thing. Hate when people say “Adam’s knees fit better!” It is definitely a skill
Hearing Adam’s celebration sigh (or moan) at the end of the route at 0,5 speed was (unintentionally?) hilarious 😁
Anyway very well produced video, great content 👍
They should make the next Jurassic Park movie using slo-mo Adam power screams. I'd totally watch that
He checked those holds 100% it is propably just harder/less in his style
Adam unleashes his Wookie @ 11:19 🤣
I appreciate that stefano found a beta for the first crux that looks more natural and i expect if anyone repeats the route they will go with something more akin to that
Adam think Stephanos beta is harder 😂😮
Adams power-screams in half speed sounds like a dying cave troll in LOTR.
Great breakdown!
Great breakdown and great attention to detail!
Really digging this breakdown content!
Thanks Emil - this was a cool breakdown!
This is a great video!!
Well done, Emil!
And thanks :)
Would've liked if some discussion of Pete Whittaker's beta for the crack was included. Especially since Stefano kind of does a hybrid of Pete and Adam's beta.
Stefano called Pete, it's on his channel, they talk about it
That was an amazing comparison of the different speeds between the two!
It's cool to hear your comments on the route, Emil. One note: Stefano's name should be pronounced with the accent on the first syllable (Stéfano). Keep up the great content!
Great video! Thank you.
Super interesting analysis of the 2 climbing styles. Especially Ondra cutting loose to relieve core tension before the inversion.
Cheers mate, happy it entertained
Really interesting video, thanks✨🙂
Thanks!
Great video!
Thanks for putting in this work, was wondering what the exact differences were after following Stefanos videos
Awesome video, thanks
Thanks mate!
Slow motion adam power screams are amazing!
Super nice video!!
Can't wait to see some repeats (and just tries) on Seb Bouin's 9C: DNA!
Could make some nice content as well in this type of format :D
Oh yeah, me too!
Same ! I can’t wait to see more people try it !
Such a good video from a more broad perspective! I hope you decide to make a video after Stefano sends 👀
10:49 had me cracking up!
11:18 when a wale sings
Sent this to my brother just before posting, he said I should’ve re-edited it with a picture of a cow there
@@EmilAbrahamsson that is also a very good idea 💡
I think the powerscreams are more cow-ish the victory-scream is more whale-ish. What does this tell us? 😂
Yo Emil, have you checked out the bouldering in Flatanger? The quality is amazing, and I think the style suits you!
Heyo! Actually not, I've really only been to Lofoten for rock climbing in Norway. Flatanger has been on my list for years though..
I cant believe these guys can even stay up there… what do you think about Pete? Thank you - good video 👍🏼
Lol you did not slow down that last part to show the climbing of adam, but because his scream turned into a complete outerworldly roar
Stephano is ~170cm and Adam is ~185cm. That is a huge difference in height and it has a lot to do with the different beta between the two.
The only dude to send it clearly has best beta
Only one beta has been finished so I'm going with Adam's lol
static monster and dynamic beast hahaha
Cool idea! You should try to find other side by sides. I also like when Eric would compare you and Nikken. It was interesting how you could both send a problem, but both climb it totally different. Which makes me wonder about downgrades. If one climber has to climb it a certain way, because of body size or whatever, and another climbs it different because they are built different; then it would still be a 9C for Adam, even if Stefano found a 9B version for him. So why then would the route be downgraded after just one other send? Now granted there may only be 2 people in the world that can ever climb this, so I can see how grading could be different. Still don't know if I would downgrade a route just because it was easier for a different climber. Now if 100 people climbed it and the general thought was that it should be lowered then okay, but I still think the original grade should be reflected somewhere.
Technically a route isn't downgraded just because another climber says so, and if there's contentions it will remain ambiguous until more people repeat the route. However, the first ascender might agree that the downgrade is fair, for instance because a new beta was found, in which case the consensus grade would be considered to be moved.
I agree that there's something missing in that someone finding a new beta, adding kneepads, or just having slightly different body proportions can diminish the still technically unchanged achievement of a previous ascender. But it's hard to figure out a reasonable solution here that doesn't boil down to completely subjective grading where anyone could claim a 9c "due to circumstances".
@@sebjan180 Exactly. The first ascentionist can only make a "suggestion" of the grade.
And the second, third, fourth etc. ascentionists can also only make a suggestion on if they agree with the grade given or not.
You can only speak of a real "consensus grade" if enough people climbed a route. How many is enough? Hard to say. But, surprisingly, it becomes clear rather quickly, if the first ascensionist was quite right or a bit off...
Really interesting topic! For me, a grade is kind of like a little trophy, and parts of getting that trophy is finding the optimal beta and executing that. If you found the "wrong" beta and did something harder, that's really cool and all, but unfortunately you don't get a bigger trophy for it. To me the optimal beta dictates the grade, and over time that'll be found, as every subsequent ascent is usually made with a better beta than the previous one.
A good example is Bibliographie. Alex probably climbed a 9c route when he did it, but since Stefano and Sean found beta that was more efficient they downgraded it. To me giving the same trophy (9c grade) to Alex as to Adam would be to rob Adam of parts of his efforts!
I think Pete Whittaker's beta is the best. On the hardest part.
I wont be finding out in this lifetime 😀
completely avoids all the mono pocket and little crimp nonsense doesn't he.
10:50 thought I heard a bear 🐻 😂
Adam slowed down sounds like a Wookie...
Seems a bit early to be cementing Stefanos beta in stone after one trip. Will be interested to see if parts get easier or harder for him once he starts doing ground up attempts
Definitely agree, and if things were to change a lot then that'd be a fun comparison too in my eyes :-) After more than 9 days on a project it'd be interesting to see if a lot of things change
Definitely, those extra moves might feel more efficient to him fresh, but might be extremely desperate with some pump.
I guess best beta is the one of who arrived in anchor...
I don't like comparing well optimized, trained and with built muscle memory Adams beta with Stefanos first take on the moves.. It's completely different thing!
To be fair, Stefano has the advantage of seeing Adams beta so he has a starting point that he knows goes.
Have you ever climbed in squamish
For me what seems to be more interesting is that Adam genuinely thinks that Stefano's way of doing the crux is harder. You know, when you get very skilled at using a screwdriver, you can do many things with it: you can put screws in a wall, but also hammer in nails, even open a bottle. But the bottle opener will still be the most efficient in opening bottles. Maybe because he invested so much effort into that sequence (sunk cost fallacy)?
Super good point! In retrospect, I wish I would've touched on that in the video...
I mean, maybe it is harder ? He does like four or fives hard moves, when Adam only did one, wich maybe isn't that hard compared to the alternative, Stefano couldn't do it because it just require crazy flexibility.
So maybe Stefano will have a lot more trouble linking the route because of this (or maybe not)
I reckon that Adam already tried Stefano's beta or something alike while working the route in 7 weeks and since they are very different size/style climbers I believe that for him it might really be easier with the drop knee beta. Interesting for me is that Stefano's beta even if it seems easier for an uneducated viewer makes the boulder V15/V16 for him, but it might also come down to the fact that Adam is arguably stronger boulderer.
Honestly I didn't think that Stefano will be able to do the boulder just looking at Adams beta and their size difference, but than I didn't know that one can climb around it...Anyways with Stefano's recovery potential I believe that he has a reall shot to do the route in the future. Good luck
@@miguelgazquez5717 true! We shall see. But iirc Adam was able to dial that specific move as the last thing in his process, while Stefano was able to do that quite early/soon (first trip). Considering that Pete Wittaker said that Adam was making the crux slightly harder for himself, I wouldn't be 100% sure that Adam's beta would be the easiest (even for him).
@@jhead6833 Totally, they have very different body sizes. But in my experience, it happened so many times to me that I try a move in a certain way and my crusher friends suggest me another. The way I do it feels incredibly easier at first because it's my natural style of climbing (i.e. what I'm used to), but if I just get some work into those types of moves the suggestion feels incredibly easy after just a bit of practice.
You didn't mention Pete Whittaker beta for the crack
That’s because it’s an artificial beta; he started upside down already with his foot jammed and as Stefano mentioned it looks like getting your foot up is actually the hardest part of this crux. Pete was also wearing miuras on both feet for the crack.
Is it still the same climb if he's going to the right of the crack or is that allowed & not classed as a new route ?
Haha a very philosophical climbing question to be honest. In my book it's 100% the same route, but a different difficulty. Perhaps and probably the same grade, but a different type of difficulty!
@@EmilAbrahamsson Adam Ondra has talked about it and mentioned that he was aware of the holds right of the crack but found it harder and decided not to use it. For me the comparison to indoor would be if someone skipps a hold because it is easier or undoable to use them and someone else uses it, it is still the same route, same quickdraws, same anchor but different beta. Otherwise we wouldn't be able to grade at all because then each beta would have their own grade, routename etc. Different beta in this case means to use different path on the same route.
@@lovricsports yeah same can be said for body type/build at that point. Some people can reach and do things static where others have to do things dynamic.
Honestly i feel like if it was significantly easier it would damage the validity of the original line all together.
I sometimes climb a 5 using clearly the wrong holds/line either because the movement looks fun or the holds feel pretty cool so i want to use them instead of the obvious jugs.
That doesnt make the 5, 7a either, so yes following a line is important but unlike bouldering, in sportclimbing there is a naturally imposed line which follows logic along side the desire to climb hard. If there is no grade difference between the two, they are both the same route, if there is it might be morpho, and if it isnt then the lowest grade is the main line. Thats just how i feel, but im not pushing the 8s and 9s so idk if that logic even applies here.
I think in outdoor climbing we have to live with this ambiguity, since we have no black tape 😉. There has been the same discussion on Bibliography, where Stefano used a crack just left of Alex’s route, avoiding one of the hardest moves. Alex was fine with the downgrade because he admitted that he just didn’t see this possibility. In the end Alex climbed harder than Stefano, but it doesn’t matter for grading.
Aram ondra
The difference in beta is most likely due to Adam Ondras inability to hold a front lever. It is his biggest weakness. So instead of a front lever beta, however cleaner, its harder for Adam. This is why he developed a human flag type beta instead, and likely didnt even consider doing it in the way Ghisolfi did it, simply because it was too hard for him.
11:10 whales incoming
Emil you tried this route? I can't imagine from these videos what it's really like. Adam and Stefano also have different styles and something suits everyone. in any case, they both climb terribly. I don't really understand your post.
Make sure to check out Stefano's last video, which is the greatest of all times, far above Silence. It's not everyday that you see 9b boulder problems being flashed !
Don’t say static monster and dynamic beast again lol
I do feel like Ondra just missed or too quickly discounted Stefano's beta and now doesn't really want to admit it and therefore says that stefano's version is more tiring. however, stefano still hasn't linked the full first crux, much less sent the whole route, so we can't really tell yet. But I do have a feeling that next year, with specific training for it, silence will go down quite quickly for stefano
I disagree, I feel that Adam guy knows a lot about rock climbing
@@minime453 haha that's of course true. We'll have to see what happens next season...
The problem is that Stefano's video suggests he is close to sending Crux 1. But in reality, it sounds like he has only held on to the slot once and has not done the inversion from the start of the crux. This is at least what I can tell from the videos. There are still so many links missing that I am not even sure his beta will work for the entirely of Crux 1, and that is not to mention that if he doesn't get a full rest before the crux 1 it may be impossible.
First time in my life I've heard Adam being called a 'dyinamic monster'. Is he the king of turning dynos into static moves?!?!?!?
he is not a monster at doing big, dynamic moves, but he has a style of climbing one more "normal" moves where he go really fast, using momentum in every move. So he is not a monster at dyno, or big coordination moves, but when you look at him climbing, he really use momentum everywhere, at lot more than other climbers (and very efficiently too). The fact that he climb so fast is linked too, he can do a lot of moves in one single "push", conserving the momentum from move to move. Just look at him climbig the 8b intro of silence, he goes mindblowingly fast.
@@miguelgazquez5717 Thanks Miguel for explaining!
Does anybody else think that the edited beta video by Stefano sets a potentially bad precedent for climbing media?. I mean who knows, Stefano’s beta may not even be doable for him or anyone else as linking even small sections look to be at his limit in the individual videos, but all looked casual when the very best attempts were spliced together. Stefano needs to be honest about what links he actually did and did not do. He does not owe this to us, but he does owe this to Adam because the current video undermines the actual difficulty of the route and suggests a repeat is near. In my opinion, what Stefano has given the climbing community with these videos is a breakdown of a truly visionary route and highlighted the genius of 24 year old peak Adam Ondra to find its solution. It also highlights how fearless Stefano is in trying the route so publicly (I am now a huge fan!) and how masterfully his team can document the attempt. Anything more is speculation.
Adam Ondra a dynamic beast? What???? Lost me there chief. They use different beta because of their size difference.
dynamic beast not meaning a beast at dyno and coordination moves, but a beast at moving dynamically, wich he is. If you watch him climb, he is almost always using momentum, and conserving it moves to moves. He also climb very fast thanks to that.
@@miguelgazquez5717 but a “dynamic beast?” Lol……I know that he doesn’t pride himself on being precise and that he’d rather move through the movements quickly in order to conserve energy (which makes him a master of efficiency) so I guess so. Just to hear someone refer to him as a “dynamic beast” left me laughing.
surely until Stefano sends it this comparison is futile? Can we not just appreciate it as neutrals
To a degree, but this to me is such a fun part of the sport. You have one climber who has shown the way, and proven something’s possible. Another one comes along and is given all the absurd details that made it possible from the beginning, and find new ways to either optimise or change the way to fit them. I think it’s rad :-) what I’ll say, and like I mentioned in the video, is that their respective pace at which they climb at isn’t something to really comment on as Stefano hasn’t given the route as much time. But for me, the difference in beta is fascinating!
very poor analysis, not hating, but you could have gone into a lot more detail...
dont want to be rude but, i admit i have not/ i will not look an beta compare about an possible v15/16 if its not made by a v16 crusher, and atm there is less than 10/15 ppl in the world that can do that, not you atm.
Heyo mate, I don't find your comment rude at all, just a bit ignorant! Here's a few reasons why: 1. The person with the most analytical mindset towards climbing and movement that I've ever met wasn't a climber, being a climber is quite far from a pre-requisite. It should also be mentioned that I've met most of the top-level climbers in my days, yet I stand by that... 2. Large parts of this video could be made by a computer with zero knowledge about climbing.. it's literally a side-by-side comparison with a bit of extra commentary. Food for thought, as they call it. 3. If you ABSOLUTELY have to care about grades and what people have climbed: my max boulder grade is the same as Stefano's currently, would you listen to him talk about beta? I sure hope so..
I think you could benefit from opening your eyes a bit! Not to say you have to watch this video for it, but maybe chat with people around you who climb lower grades than you, and perhaps you'll learn something! It's always good to keep an open mind :-)
Peace homie
Wth😂😂😂
Even the best computer, will not have all spec, length and holds configuration to set an realistic beta. And i m physic teacher. And an other thing about grade is same as mathematics or science, if u have the adam ondra boulders list or daniel Wood u may have enough data to deal with a grade. And at end. Trying it real and not on a board or a replica is the only way to have a real idea/point of view. And i came from the first climbing area around the world with first replica made by Edlinger and Yuji hirayama. So i have some exemple of how far from reality replica can be.
At end, thats hard to have a point of view on our own beta, so trying to compare two beta from 2 climbers who climb a line with 4 years between try is like no sense.