Fd isn't that counter pick your basically giving him Omega form mat and that uses shovel if there isn't a lylat ban yeah that considered one of the Steve worst stages it literally just all iron
@@ChocolateSoda1 certain@@ChocolateSoda1TOs opted to run their tournaments allowing Meta Knight, and certain top players simply didn’t attend non-Meta Knight tournaments.
Coney's hilarious tweet about banning every character over time until there's no one left and we all just shake hands and are finally free is my favorite response to all the #BanSteve stuff
I find the "kiddie sh!t" argument brought up really dumb. By that logic, half the characters in this game shouldn't be allowed here. Hell, they shouldn't even be playing Smash if they're against "kiddie sh!t". Why is liking something aimed towards kids or that has a primary child audience always seen as bad. Kids are cringe, revolutionary take but they shouldn't take away from Minecraft being an absolute juggernaught. And this is coming from someone who's only played Mindcraft for like a day.
And then when Sora comes those same people freak out. He’s literally in a game with Goofy and Donald the Duck. Smash is a game for all game franchises. I respect any newcomer as long as they play well.
If all of the “kiddie shit” characters were removed from the game, we would only have JRPG sword characters left, and we all know how the smash community feels about those guys/girls.
I think we should ban Steve and Yoshi and Olimar and Kazuya and Wolf and Peach and Pikachu and Joker and Little Mac and Sora and Min Min and Bayonetta and Ryu and Byleth and Snake and Pit and Lucina and Roy and Mr Game and Watch and Pythra and Fox and Samus and Zelda and all characters that aren’t Donkey Kong.
I always hate it when people say shit like "he doesn't belong in the game" because the game is built around all of gaming They're gatekeeping the funny fighting game
I think the issue is not that Steve is broken, he's just really good at camping and walling you out, and his playstyle is literally incentivized around camping with the blocks and mining for resources. I think most smash players are not used to a really campy character being that fucking good because all the other broken top-tier characters in other smash games were rush-down characters that forced interactions and made the opponent guess after getting hit. I know different good characters in smash games have been campy, but I think the only one that's probably on the same level of campyiness is melee Jigglypuff, and really it was only hbox playing her for most tournaments. steve is like one of the most popular characters recently, so you have to deal with multiple in bracket, while in melee, you only had to deal with hbox. While he has a good combo game, Steve forces you to play his game because he's okay with just sitting behind his wall and mining. He's broken in the same way Happy chaos was for a while in a strive, having an excellent keep away, but also having good close combat even if you can pin him down. But not so broken that he ruins the game,
Difference is he can't approach Literally just camp him back BuT hE'Ll GeT dIaMoNd Then continue to camp. Minecart is reactable at mid range and he has no other moves that can hit more than a Lucina jab range in front of him. Edit: I should probably clarify that I don't think he's bad. He has ways of working his way in. But there is counterplay, and I think people are just impatient.
@@sheridan5175 Diamond is better arsene that doesn't go away. What does camping help you do, lose slower? Outcamping steve is like outpunching mike tyson, it's not going to happen.
@@marlinmurrell620 Steve just has great oppression they can't handle being trapped with oppressive moves they call it lame when they praise when the character is flashy and they don't understand other fighting games bc oppression is common in those
lol people just don’t like that a campy character is on top for now. Same thing when hbox was dominating melee with jigglypuff, people tried so much stuff to stop him cause they didn’t like being camped out, because they don’t want to acknowledge that you getting camped out is you getting outplayed or you not having enough character knowledge or patience for a competitive game
The meta is going to revolve around counter-picking. Don’t like engaging with Steve up close and personal? Zone him out with min-min or a projectile based character. So many people also refuse to accept camping and not engaging just because it’s seen as unfun or boring to watch. If you wanna win, you gotta sometimes do the unfortunate strategies when it comes to overtuned characaters with an explosive and wacky kit/wall of strategies. Nobody is willing to accept that reality though, because people just wanna see, “hype plays and hype gameplay”
Id argue the games meta IS counterpicking as is. You get a bad matchup and winning is a crapshoot. Thats why most pros agree you need a pocket. When you didny really in any other game (besides everyones pocket cloud/bayo in sm4sh)
as a fighting game player, I can agree with this, Tekken 7 is good at showing this, and if we didn't have an idea that 1 beats another or your matchup the stage and who the other person is playing. even a lousy matchup could be fixed by a well-picked stage or ya know learning and labbing. Just go and lab.
Me, a former competitive ygo player: Yep, sounds like Japan. I've seen that all the time. Only reason Steve was making waves now is because the Japanese had two years of uncontested labbing in competitive on and off line because of Covid banning international travel that the west was blindsided with what an 'underused' character could do. Once the west gets their chance to lab counterplays this argument will die down.
A lot of effective counterplay showed up in Double Down. The Minmin counter especially seemed really dominant in that matchup, able to pressure and prevent mining, break blocks from safety and beat out minecart.
@@KingR098 Jake and Yonni were the two best Steves other than Acola, who was the notable no show. DDog also showed up. What standard are you using if 2nd 3rd and 4th best aren't good main reps?
@@TheEmperorGulcasa onin and acola are the two most relevant steves, which weren't present. Jake and Yonni have never really gotten top results, so them losing when they did is just par for the course.
@@TheEmperorGulcasa theres steve mains out there that dont even attend tourneys because they cant, but when they get the means to they will and when they do they will most likely 2-0 or 3-0 mkleo and sparg0 incredibly easy.
It’s kinda messed up he used the clip of Max as an example of people being unhappy with his inclusion. Max has a GREAT video about how Steve is a perfect fit for smash, and calls out people on Twitter who were acting “trashy” about it.
@@coach7704 it's a general problem across journalism, unfortunately. When everything is argumentative-style opiniom pieces, without the thoroughness of research, you end with shallow click pieces that use random twitter follower with 3 retweets to suggest there is a mainstream problem. It's ridiculous.
the worst thing about people who say 'actually nana is in front' is that they're wrong... nana means 'second' and popo means 'first' so the climber in front is supposed to always be popo
It’s true Steve is a knowledge check But he is no bayo or meta knight lol I do think Steve (and most of FP2) is going to heavily evolve the counterpick meta. In a game with 90+ characters it’s not insane to think that you might need like 4 or 5 to really be successful
Okay, I really gotta ask, with all this Steve talk, how in the F*CK is no one talking about the ProtoBanham vs Jake set at Double Down 2022? Min Min completely invalidade Steve there, adn I hear that Robin and Hero also have a pretty good match up. the thing about Steve is I feel a lot of his worst match ups aren't against the top tiers, so the top players that only use the more conventional characters are struggling against the best Steves.
I personally think the community should consider bring some of these back: -*Hazardless*: - Lylat - Unova pokemon league -*Hazards on*: -Smashville -Duck Hunt -Yoshi's Island Brawl -FOD -Dreamland
I actually looked up the histories of the top 5 Steve mains, I legitimately think they aren’t “carried by Steve” in that their results instantly skyrocketed from Steve Jake used to be known as JTJ, a wifi Mario player with online wins on LeoN and Wadi. Onin used to go by Pocket, and was also a local wifi nightmare with his Joker, Rob, and Robin (the latter of which he’s pulled out this year to win a local as a counterpick in grands) DDee is the most well known to be “not carried” because he was beating top players’ asses on wifi like Samsora with all his characters beforehand Acola was in the top 10 of all of Japan’s wifi rankings using Luigi Yonni is the only one I think that legitimately wasn’t doing very well beforehand, but with how much Yonni is known for being a lab rat and practicing tech skill and punishes, I think he kind of just drastically improved that way, because his neutral is much better now too Most people want to write these things off because they don’t care about wifi results, but these players legitimately just… got better over wifi. They started on it, and came out in full force afterward. That’s why most people always downplay them, because they don’t care about wifi results, so they never paid attention, and only think of them as having JUST started playing the game. The truth is they’ve been steadily improving just like everyone else. It’s basically the same story as Zomba and Quidd, but no one calls them carried or downplays their results because they aren’t playing public enemy number 1
This is definitely close to my thoughts on this. These players were wifi warriors and we're still in the aftermath of a period where our only option was wifi. Characters and players that weren't seeing the same results pre-covid got their playstyles buffed because of wifi and are seeing much better success now compared to before (for example this is a contributing factor to why Rob and Sonic are seeing much more success than they did pre-covid). The meta shifted based around wifi, and we're still seeing a lot of the effects of that. Steve being a character that can translate online playstyle to offline means that its not hard to replicate their success in that regard. Also to add to your point about Yonni being a lab rat, steve is probably the character that stands to gain the most from labbing. All the unique things he can do and character specific tech mean that Steve benefits more from labbing then some of the simpler characters (for example, I imagine that bowser probably doesn't need that much work in the way of labbing). Being able to lab out Steve's strengths and try to bring out some of them in game helps explain at least a little bit of why Yonni was able to rise in this way.
lol, smash ultimate players love to complain. First it was Sonic, then Aegis, now Kazuya and Steve. And the funny thing is the overwhelming majority of people won't ever play someone at the level where this stuff matters.
Facts. I feel like some people think banning Steve in tournament will discourage everyone from playing Steve at all. Like he will just magically disappear from Elite Smash. I wouldn’t be surprised if someone actually thinks like that.
I personally just think we should wait and see. People will get better at the matchup as the steves squeeze out every possible ounce of juice out of the character. He is not a contender for the best character in the game (yet). So untill then i think were fine.
I think a big problem with Steve is that there might be a few underused characters that could counter Steve, but many, many characters aren't optimized to the level of better characters that we may never know
as a smash outsider who mainly plays fighting games 1 Steve seems like the character with the most sauce and I'm really glad a bunch of young ppl are making waves 2 this is just like with melee where ppl have an idea of how the game is but don't realize how open ended things are that allows a variety of play styles and strategies, so than they deny the truth of the game to live in dreamland,
He does have some of the coolest and funniest setups in the game, but the problem with steve is that they aren't necessary for success. You can just use his intuitive up tilt and jab combos and minecart to win without touching any of the saucy stuff. He is funny to watch though
I'm convinced everyone who genuinely complains about Steve and wants him banned without a single hint of irony are all $5 players that literally only play a single character and absolutely refuse to switch for any conceivable reason.
The way I see it, a lot of them are die hard NA fanboys who just hate seeing their favorite players lose. And I know for a fact that some of them are saying “Ban Steve” simply because they don’t like his inclusion in the game. And I’ve seen even worse takes than that. Some people want Kazuya banned. Others want all of Fighter’s Pass 2 to be banned. I even saw a guy say that they should ban or even remove Steve and replace him with Waluigi. He even added the #Waluigi4smash hashtag like it would actually gain traction. That’s not to say there hasn’t been any healthy conversations about banning Steve. I’m kind of on both sides. I like watching Steve do goofy shit in tournaments, but if things do get worse over time (as in 4-5 Steve players dominating every top 8 at every major), then we can take action. And I wouldn’t mind if he did. I just think right now people are blowing this way out of proportion, and it’s almost being treated like cancel culture.
i feel the knowledge check thing but for most characters it is like Samus where you’re just like “do you know how to beat the forward air?” but with steve it’s like “do you know how to deal with every single steve set up?”
Believe it or not, Steve players don't use every single setup, and there's more to samus than just forward air. If a steve player was good enough to mix in every setup to their gameplan, they deserve to win.
@@toowiggly they don’t need to use every set up. you get punished for not knowing the specific set up that this steve likes to use. the point is steve plays in such a unique way that there’s way more “knowledge checks”than anyone else.
people mad about steve "ruining" ultimate but forget such classics as: Melee Fox (and to a lesser extent Marth), Brawl Meta Knight, 4 Bayo. there's always been and always will be a character that just outperforms in the right hands.
If Meta Knight and Bayonetta are not banworthy for their respective reigns of terror, Steve definitely shouldn't be. He's not even unanimously agreed to the be the best, and even if he was, he's not nearly as free as those two.
In my eyes it devalues the match as a whole. One mistake and you're out. Instead of making a mistake and then making the best of it and trying to adapt to the punish of your opponent and counterplay to it. Instead of it being like a dance with back and forth the name of the game becomes "stay the heck away from me". That's just boring to watch and play for me. You get up-tilted by Steve and you can turn down your controler, get a beer, drink it and come back seeing you get star-KOed. Same with Kazuya. I saw Spargo get decimated after Kazuya grabbed him at 15%. And I doubt pros like Spargo don't know how to DI or SDI properly. So yeah. I don't think they should be banned, but I do think they are pretty broken
The ‘knowledge check’ complaint is hilarious. Every competitive game revolves around knowledge checks. Imagine playing chess and wanting gambits to be banned because you don’t know (refuse to learn) how to counter/play around them
at 1:20 I think he was going for the nana trump but missed. If you land right on the edge, nana will drop and grab ledge and will trump while popo stays on stage and can still react to ledge options or a successful trump. It's much less risky, and I could be wrong about Big D's intention, but I assume that was what his plan was.
The simplest way I can explain the Steve matchup is to outrange him and don’t let him get iron I play Sephiroth and Steve so the main thing is trapping Steve at ledge It’s really hard to do that against a good Steve player though
I feel like the "90 MU checks argument" is a bit flawed in a sense that there's quite a lot of overlap in how one would approach MUs with their character. there's only so many truely unique characters you have to prepare for individually Like Steve, Pac-Man, G&W and such. The others all fall into certain architypes like "Chargeshot characters" or "fast rushdown" or "swordie" and they usually share a lot of counterplay options.
6:50 I love how they chose to show this untrue combo as an example of what Steve can do. Have you SEEN this man's ladder combos with blocks? They are unparalleled. Hit's you with one up tilt and you take like 60%.
Steve isn't metagame warping like MK and Bayo was. Does he make you play the way he wants? Sure. But do other fighting games ban characters that make you use more than 2 braincells? No. They don't.
If we didn't ban Bayo in smash 4, we shouldn't ban Steve. Sincerely, a salty Marth main and formerly someone who cared about playing smash seriously beyond casual play. I will not play Lucina. Oh, btw, we need more tourneys like GimR's, and we need people to play on more stages like FoD and shit. Seriously. The stage list is genuinely a problem. PS2 is great and all but cmon man.
Lots of top players have the same opinion on FGC characters (MkLeo mostly) about how unSmash they are..which sucks cuz they earned their place in that roster, just like Minecraft
I think the problem is that The Smash Community has been gaslit into thinking that only the DLC characters are strong, especially if a non-american uses them (seriously, what's up with japanese players winning US majors with unorthodox picks being at the focus of controversies in every fighting game, it happened with Rangchu and a guy in MvC3 who used Viewtiful Joe). The Smash Community is also the community that has more insecurities regarding making the game spectator-friendly than any other competitive scene. Melee Puff was considered for a ban not because she was overpowered, but because Hbox had a ultra-defensive playstyle, which made tournaments less entertaining to watch if you wanted to see 20XX on display. Wobbling, despite having counterplay and counter-counterplay created around it, was banned mostly because it wasn't exciting to watch two icies pummeling a Fox on a specific rhythm. Other fighting games would only resort to bans whenever the characters were grossly overpowered (with exceptions such as Wyler in Art of Fighting 3)
I swear you could have a character with 100% play rate and 0 to death combo off a frame 1 projectile from full screen and smash players would still be like: idk, not that broken, dont ban.
My big issue with Steve is that Steve can actually prevent a lot of characters from recovering. He can literally build blocks at the ledge to prevent ledge grab which at that point makes the game do not go off stage because if you do, Steve will wall you off. Characters like Mewtwo, Palu, Greninja, Pikachu, Cloud and quit a few more just are not allowed to reciver with Steve and no other character other than Steve can do anything close to ledge trapping or blocking like Steve can. Generally speaking, I definitely do not like to play against Steve or even play as him because I find it campy and boring. When I win with Steve I dont even feel good, I just feel like a child playing Steve and won because of the characters BS mechanics.
personally, I think with the whole steve thing maybe you should learn the matchup or find a counter pick the reason that Bayo and Meta should have been banned was that no one could beat them a long way into the games life
i think as a community we should all just exclusively play min min and cloud against steve so they get mad they have to play there worst matchups every single set and quit
I do think it would be cool to have a tournament, not the main one at an event but a side one, where you can ban characters just for that game like they do with stages. In paladins competitive, there is a 5 minute draft where you take turns picking the overwatch like character and also ban 2-3 characters for each side. Be interesting if they did that for sets, everyone thinking a steve player is just riding him, but then he brings out a really good wolf that no one has seen. It would reward the players that can compete with the most characters. It would make you think, is his paula worse than his cloud???
It's almost like a super unique and fun character based on the biggest game in the world is actually attracting tons new players who are dissecting the character. Meanwhile Smash vets: No Fun, only Fundies.
I think the problem is people wait for it to become a problem and by the time they come up with a solution the games already dying and they're working on the next one.
I think a lot of people have PTSD from bayo and don’t want one character to take over. While Steve isn’t as broken as bayo, however, as coney said himself, YET.
The Steve is no where near meta knight or for Wii U as Steve is just obnoxious to play against because he promotes his opponents to play his own game. Remember when jiggly puff slow campy play style was boring and obnoxious to deal with in Melee and it makes it's fast pace game slow and boring. Because of that many wanted Jigglypuff banned from melee tournaments, as Steve in ultimate is just that, stage counter pick Steve and learn the match up.
A knowledge check isn't "Do you know how to respond to this move". A knowledge check is a character that's really difficult and annoying unless you know how to deal with them, at which point they become useless. A good example of this is Smash 4 Cloud, who was really hard for mid level players to deal with but top players knew how to play around him.
lol I think I'm going to try out Steve for a bit. I have an elite K rool and at the top of the top, the best player I have ever fought was a steve player. He had so much GSP it would not let him go higher. Literally player me over and over and his GSP never moved.
I think it’s incredibly weird that people are taking the possibility of a Steve ban way too seriously. This isn’t cancel culture. Steve didn’t say a racial slur or have a history of abuse. He is just a video game character in a Nintendo crossover children’s party game who has a different playstyle than the rest of the 80+ character roster. Even if he does get banned, what will come of it? Is every #BanSteve#Please advocate gonna run out into the streets and celebrate like it’s the end of World War 2?
This is why I never wanted Steve. I knew he would be annoying as fuck since a big part of his source game is mining materials and crafting tools (both are literally in the name).
If steve always had iron tools and didn't spend 70% of the game mining and building his own house I wouldnt hate him. But watching a steve sit there and mine for 70% of the game to then kill someone for approaching at 0% is not fun. It's the same story as with Sonic players. They have the fastest character in the game, and all they use that speed for is running away. It's just awful to watch
Steve doesn't spend 70% of the match mining. If he did, he'd just be mining for resources he already has most of the time. And he doesn't kill people at 0 most of the time. He does get 60-80% combos, but that's entirely different from killing.
@@toowiggly i've seen plenty 0 to death true combos from steve, or 50/50's that lead to death from 0. And okay they atill don't approach after mining. They throw out a minecart and keep mining straight after
So basically this is jigglypuff 2.0. "Our game is fast and fun and has cool neutral and combo game, and this *THING* is an antithesis for what *WE* decided the game *SHOULD* be! All they do is sit over yonder and not engage and I have to adapt to it!" Jesus Christ, as long as Steve and Jigglypuff and whatever other dumb ass character your game has is present and is most likely not gonna be changed, you just have to accept them as a part of the game and do something about it! Adapt and overcome or perish like a dog, your choice.
MkLeo's final form will be him maining Steve one day, if that guy could make Rob look god-like its only a matter of time he gets tired of trying to stop Steve mains and instead joins their ranks, that truly will be the bad ending for Smash ultimate.
Hey Coney, as funny as the “knowledge check” segment was, it was actually very useful info for a newbie. Do you have/know of a video that goes through each of these counter strategies?
If you wait a year to ban Steve it'll just be Bayonetta all over again. People will have learned it and people will cry when the banhammer falls on Steve. If you're gonna ban him, you gotta do it now, otherwise, he'll stay, and another Zack will show up. Fuck Zack.
I just find it funny that the guy in the video said Steve players haven't fought "top players like Leo spargo and Tweek" and I'm pretty sure Tweek has a negative record against Steve players lmao It doesn't really mean anything just funny to think about. He was one of the first victims lol
it really doesnt matter if steve is hard to play or not.. the game is in a healthy state if it is fun to play and fun to watch. Its helping if a character is really toxic to fight against, only because its not easy.
People will adapt to Steve like they do to everything. Just learn the matchup. I’m not saying it’s easy. I don’t know the matchup but it’s possible. People just need to switch it up
I think we should all start playing Ultimate the way it was meant to be played: non-competitively. The quicker we can accept that the quicker we can have fun with the game instead of ragging Sakurai to give competitive balances to the game when it wasn't meant to be competitive
Honestly a bad take, sorry. People like competition. That will never change. With this mindset we could just eliminate all sports competitions because "playing basketball was never about winning, but having fun =)"
Smash community cant even decide if FD is a neutral or counterpick stage. They are never banning a character.
Ta-roo-hoo-hooo
Fd isn't that counter pick your basically giving him Omega form mat and that uses shovel if there isn't a lylat ban yeah that considered one of the Steve worst stages it literally just all iron
@@nothingherezero7182 lylat is so fun, Smash fans ban all the best stages smh
Brawl metaknight tho
@@ChocolateSoda1 certain@@ChocolateSoda1TOs opted to run their tournaments allowing Meta Knight, and certain top players simply didn’t attend non-Meta Knight tournaments.
Coney where's that skate 3 video you mentioned forever ago? As it's something you said at one point in history, I can't let it go.
:)
I would love a skate 3 video CONEY
Yes!
I forgot he mentioned that
The internet never forgets…
Is it this one
ruclips.net/video/UmNrCmaWpng/видео.html
Coney's hilarious tweet about banning every character over time until there's no one left and we all just shake hands and are finally free is my favorite response to all the #BanSteve stuff
I find the "kiddie sh!t" argument brought up really dumb. By that logic, half the characters in this game shouldn't be allowed here. Hell, they shouldn't even be playing Smash if they're against "kiddie sh!t". Why is liking something aimed towards kids or that has a primary child audience always seen as bad. Kids are cringe, revolutionary take but they shouldn't take away from Minecraft being an absolute juggernaught. And this is coming from someone who's only played Mindcraft for like a day.
And then when Sora comes those same people freak out. He’s literally in a game with Goofy and Donald the Duck. Smash is a game for all game franchises. I respect any newcomer as long as they play well.
If all of the “kiddie shit” characters were removed from the game, we would only have JRPG sword characters left, and we all know how the smash community feels about those guys/girls.
Its the same people that beg for ganon to be good, which aint a bad thing, but i think it just says they want the game to look like mortal kombat
Yeah, that was a stupid as hell argument.
I think we should ban Steve and Yoshi and Olimar and Kazuya and Wolf and Peach and Pikachu and Joker and Little Mac and Sora and Min Min and Bayonetta and Ryu and Byleth and Snake and Pit and Lucina and Roy and Mr Game and Watch and Pythra and Fox and Samus and Zelda and all characters that aren’t Donkey Kong.
based
I think we should ban everyone but little mac
Every Donkey kong main be like.
you know...that wouldnt be the worst timeline to live in
Fuck it let's ban everything except random
I always hate it when people say shit like "he doesn't belong in the game" because the game is built around all of gaming
They're gatekeeping the funny fighting game
I think the issue is not that Steve is broken, he's just really good at camping and walling you out, and his playstyle is literally incentivized around camping with the blocks and mining for resources. I think most smash players are not used to a really campy character being that fucking good because all the other broken top-tier characters in other smash games were rush-down characters that forced interactions and made the opponent guess after getting hit. I know different good characters in smash games have been campy, but I think the only one that's probably on the same level of campyiness is melee Jigglypuff, and really it was only hbox playing her for most tournaments. steve is like one of the most popular characters recently, so you have to deal with multiple in bracket, while in melee, you only had to deal with hbox. While he has a good combo game, Steve forces you to play his game because he's okay with just sitting behind his wall and mining. He's broken in the same way Happy chaos was for a while in a strive, having an excellent keep away, but also having good close combat even if you can pin him down. But not so broken that he ruins the game,
I see... Steve is just an army of Hbox's...
@@davidgoldammer348 👁️👄👁️
Difference is he can't approach
Literally just camp him back
BuT hE'Ll GeT dIaMoNd
Then continue to camp. Minecart is reactable at mid range and he has no other moves that can hit more than a Lucina jab range in front of him.
Edit: I should probably clarify that I don't think he's bad. He has ways of working his way in. But there is counterplay, and I think people are just impatient.
@@sheridan5175 really depends on the character because Steve has no incentive to approach unless he's already losing
@@sheridan5175 Diamond is better arsene that doesn't go away. What does camping help you do, lose slower? Outcamping steve is like outpunching mike tyson, it's not going to happen.
Bruh literally this character has been winning for what, a month? A whole ass month? Oh wow shit yeah such domination
smash fanbase try not to cry broken and call for bans the moment a character places challenge (impossible)
@@smallsoul2374 I'll cry about a character being broken, but I wont call for bans. People just need to get good.
"BAN INKLING"
if that sounds stupid
then so does asking to ban steve and kazuya.
flavor of the month =/= game ending play
@@marlinmurrell620 Steve just has great oppression they can't handle being trapped with oppressive moves they call it lame when they praise when the character is flashy and they don't understand other fighting games bc oppression is common in those
lol people just don’t like that a campy character is on top for now. Same thing when hbox was dominating melee with jigglypuff, people tried so much stuff to stop him cause they didn’t like being camped out, because they don’t want to acknowledge that you getting camped out is you getting outplayed or you not having enough character knowledge or patience for a competitive game
The meta is going to revolve around counter-picking. Don’t like engaging with Steve up close and personal? Zone him out with min-min or a projectile based character. So many people also refuse to accept camping and not engaging just because it’s seen as unfun or boring to watch. If you wanna win, you gotta sometimes do the unfortunate strategies when it comes to overtuned characaters with an explosive and wacky kit/wall of strategies. Nobody is willing to accept that reality though, because people just wanna see, “hype plays and hype gameplay”
Id argue the games meta IS counterpicking as is. You get a bad matchup and winning is a crapshoot. Thats why most pros agree you need a pocket. When you didny really in any other game (besides everyones pocket cloud/bayo in sm4sh)
as a fighting game player, I can agree with this, Tekken 7 is good at showing this, and if we didn't have an idea that 1 beats another or your matchup the stage and who the other person is playing. even a lousy matchup could be fixed by a well-picked stage or ya know learning and labbing. Just go and lab.
@@clowngamin Same, i grew up playing Mostly Tekken and a lot of Street Fighter, that’s just how it was.
Me, a former competitive ygo player: Yep, sounds like Japan. I've seen that all the time.
Only reason Steve was making waves now is because the Japanese had two years of uncontested labbing in competitive on and off line because of Covid banning international travel that the west was blindsided with what an 'underused' character could do. Once the west gets their chance to lab counterplays this argument will die down.
A lot of effective counterplay showed up in Double Down. The Minmin counter especially seemed really dominant in that matchup, able to pressure and prevent mining, break blocks from safety and beat out minecart.
At the same time, it's not like the really good Steves were at Double Down lol
@@KingR098 Jake and Yonni were the two best Steves other than Acola, who was the notable no show. DDog also showed up. What standard are you using if 2nd 3rd and 4th best aren't good main reps?
@@TheEmperorGulcasa onin and acola are the two most relevant steves, which weren't present. Jake and Yonni have never really gotten top results, so them losing when they did is just par for the course.
@@TheEmperorGulcasa theres steve mains out there that dont even attend tourneys because they cant, but when they get the means to they will and when they do they will most likely 2-0 or 3-0 mkleo and sparg0 incredibly easy.
The only downside is that Min Min is in the top three most cringe characters in this game.
It’s kinda messed up he used the clip of Max as an example of people being unhappy with his inclusion. Max has a GREAT video about how Steve is a perfect fit for smash, and calls out people on Twitter who were acting “trashy” about it.
yeah, the examples are extremely cherry-picked. This person doesn't know how to do research.
@@Reapehify that’s a trend I’ve noticed recently with the score
@@coach7704 it's a general problem across journalism, unfortunately. When everything is argumentative-style opiniom pieces, without the thoroughness of research, you end with shallow click pieces that use random twitter follower with 3 retweets to suggest there is a mainstream problem. It's ridiculous.
The only person who actually acted "trashy" about Steve in Smash is the idiot himself Shokio!
Which video? I’d like to watch
the worst thing about people who say 'actually nana is in front' is that they're wrong... nana means 'second' and popo means 'first' so the climber in front is supposed to always be popo
It’s true Steve is a knowledge check
But he is no bayo or meta knight lol
I do think Steve (and most of FP2) is going to heavily evolve the counterpick meta. In a game with 90+ characters it’s not insane to think that you might need like 4 or 5 to really be successful
Okay, I really gotta ask, with all this Steve talk, how in the F*CK is no one talking about the ProtoBanham vs Jake set at Double Down 2022? Min Min completely invalidade Steve there, adn I hear that Robin and Hero also have a pretty good match up. the thing about Steve is I feel a lot of his worst match ups aren't against the top tiers, so the top players that only use the more conventional characters are struggling against the best Steves.
the video he is reacting to (thescore esports: moreso a Team Based Shooter specialist channel in Canada) made that vudeo likely befire Double Down
I personally think the community should consider bring some of these back:
-*Hazardless*:
- Lylat
- Unova pokemon league
-*Hazards on*:
-Smashville
-Duck Hunt
-Yoshi's Island Brawl
-FOD
-Dreamland
Steve on duck hunt would make me literally kill myself
@@ventdra Facts.
And of course Hazardless Wuhu Island and Warioware.
I actually looked up the histories of the top 5 Steve mains, I legitimately think they aren’t “carried by Steve” in that their results instantly skyrocketed from Steve
Jake used to be known as JTJ, a wifi Mario player with online wins on LeoN and Wadi.
Onin used to go by Pocket, and was also a local wifi nightmare with his Joker, Rob, and Robin (the latter of which he’s pulled out this year to win a local as a counterpick in grands)
DDee is the most well known to be “not carried” because he was beating top players’ asses on wifi like Samsora with all his characters beforehand
Acola was in the top 10 of all of Japan’s wifi rankings using Luigi
Yonni is the only one I think that legitimately wasn’t doing very well beforehand, but with how much Yonni is known for being a lab rat and practicing tech skill and punishes, I think he kind of just drastically improved that way, because his neutral is much better now too
Most people want to write these things off because they don’t care about wifi results, but these players legitimately just… got better over wifi. They started on it, and came out in full force afterward. That’s why most people always downplay them, because they don’t care about wifi results, so they never paid attention, and only think of them as having JUST started playing the game. The truth is they’ve been steadily improving just like everyone else. It’s basically the same story as Zomba and Quidd, but no one calls them carried or downplays their results because they aren’t playing public enemy number 1
Wifi is drastically different from offline though. Remember when WhiteNova beat Samsora with f*cking Ganondorf?
This is definitely close to my thoughts on this. These players were wifi warriors and we're still in the aftermath of a period where our only option was wifi. Characters and players that weren't seeing the same results pre-covid got their playstyles buffed because of wifi and are seeing much better success now compared to before (for example this is a contributing factor to why Rob and Sonic are seeing much more success than they did pre-covid). The meta shifted based around wifi, and we're still seeing a lot of the effects of that. Steve being a character that can translate online playstyle to offline means that its not hard to replicate their success in that regard.
Also to add to your point about Yonni being a lab rat, steve is probably the character that stands to gain the most from labbing. All the unique things he can do and character specific tech mean that Steve benefits more from labbing then some of the simpler characters (for example, I imagine that bowser probably doesn't need that much work in the way of labbing). Being able to lab out Steve's strengths and try to bring out some of them in game helps explain at least a little bit of why Yonni was able to rise in this way.
This player named Shokio actually thought that Steve carries players...
lol, smash ultimate players love to complain. First it was Sonic, then Aegis, now Kazuya and Steve. And the funny thing is the overwhelming majority of people won't ever play someone at the level where this stuff matters.
Facts. I feel like some people think banning Steve in tournament will discourage everyone from playing Steve at all. Like he will just magically disappear from Elite Smash. I wouldn’t be surprised if someone actually thinks like that.
I personally just think we should wait and see.
People will get better at the matchup as the steves squeeze out every possible ounce of juice out of the character.
He is not a contender for the best character in the game (yet). So untill then i think were fine.
I think a big problem with Steve is that there might be a few underused characters that could counter Steve, but many, many characters aren't optimized to the level of better characters that we may never know
I really just think Steve has a mu chart similar to g&w. He's just really damn good at countering top tiers which is why people are freaking out
He used to be like that ( mid tier )
"most write steve off as kiddy shit" My brother in christ it is a nintendo party fighter on the switch.
I love how coney always finds a way to make clickbait that lies to me but somehow doesn’t leave me disappointed
its funny watching this not even a year later lmao
as a smash outsider who mainly plays fighting games
1 Steve seems like the character with the most sauce and I'm really glad a bunch of young ppl are making waves
2 this is just like with melee where ppl have an idea of how the game is but don't realize how open ended things are that allows a variety of play styles and strategies, so than they deny the truth of the game to live in dreamland,
He does have some of the coolest and funniest setups in the game, but the problem with steve is that they aren't necessary for success. You can just use his intuitive up tilt and jab combos and minecart to win without touching any of the saucy stuff. He is funny to watch though
Saucy and Steve in the same sentence do not work
Melee's gotten better when it comes to how they see defensive playstyles. Give them some credit at least.
@@Greenietheotaku Right? How is camping sauce?
@@Greenietheotaku yet you just put them in the same sentence curious 🧐
I'm convinced everyone who genuinely complains about Steve and wants him banned without a single hint of irony are all $5 players that literally only play a single character and absolutely refuse to switch for any conceivable reason.
The way I see it, a lot of them are die hard NA fanboys who just hate seeing their favorite players lose. And I know for a fact that some of them are saying “Ban Steve” simply because they don’t like his inclusion in the game. And I’ve seen even worse takes than that. Some people want Kazuya banned. Others want all of Fighter’s Pass 2 to be banned. I even saw a guy say that they should ban or even remove Steve and replace him with Waluigi. He even added the #Waluigi4smash hashtag like it would actually gain traction.
That’s not to say there hasn’t been any healthy conversations about banning Steve. I’m kind of on both sides. I like watching Steve do goofy shit in tournaments, but if things do get worse over time (as in 4-5 Steve players dominating every top 8 at every major), then we can take action. And I wouldn’t mind if he did. I just think right now people are blowing this way out of proportion, and it’s almost being treated like cancel culture.
@@gabrielabrera9966
And then we have the scrub himself Shokio!
mom we gotta move, Steve is banned in my super smash brothers ultimate tournament near by.
Steve is a god amongst men and it’s so fucking funny
i feel the knowledge check thing but for most characters it is like Samus where you’re just like “do you know how to beat the forward air?” but with steve it’s like “do you know how to deal with every single steve set up?”
Believe it or not, Steve players don't use every single setup, and there's more to samus than just forward air. If a steve player was good enough to mix in every setup to their gameplan, they deserve to win.
@@toowiggly they don’t need to use every set up. you get punished for not knowing the specific set up that this steve likes to use. the point is steve plays in such a unique way that there’s way more “knowledge checks”than anyone else.
I think Min Min is a good Steve killer. Just gotta see more games
We’re really relying on min-min now to kill the steves 💀 smash is over
Sephiroth and Cloud also have a pretty good matchup as well.
Mostly seph
Oh you just wait steve would just be looking for tech against most his bad mu yes Steve Saving grace are his material his neutral b and his tech
"Guys, don't worry. Just use the 2nd most lame and campy character to beat the most lame and campy character!"
Can't wait to "watch" those sets...
"Bro this has no updoots"
Though updoots is a cute way to say it. It's cause there's worse threats to the game
people mad about steve "ruining" ultimate but forget such classics as: Melee Fox (and to a lesser extent Marth), Brawl Meta Knight, 4 Bayo. there's always been and always will be a character that just outperforms in the right hands.
Keef is really cool. His skits are hilarious 😆
It’s time bois.
Boy that's just crazy
If Meta Knight and Bayonetta are not banworthy for their respective reigns of terror, Steve definitely shouldn't be. He's not even unanimously agreed to the be the best, and even if he was, he's not nearly as free as those two.
Man, this whole controversy is so stupid I love it.
A funny square man leaves every top Smash player in tears.
I know I’m in the minority but I enjoy fighting touch of death characters like Luigi, icies, Steve, and Kazuya because neutral feels more impactful
fighting a good kazuya is just fighting a fucking elden ring boss and i live for it
@@hunbi1875 exactly
In my eyes it devalues the match as a whole.
One mistake and you're out.
Instead of making a mistake and then making the best of it and trying to adapt to the punish of your opponent and counterplay to it.
Instead of it being like a dance with back and forth the name of the game becomes "stay the heck away from me".
That's just boring to watch and play for me.
You get up-tilted by Steve and you can turn down your controler, get a beer, drink it and come back seeing you get star-KOed.
Same with Kazuya.
I saw Spargo get decimated after Kazuya grabbed him at 15%. And I doubt pros like Spargo don't know how to DI or SDI properly.
So yeah.
I don't think they should be banned, but I do think they are pretty broken
The ‘knowledge check’ complaint is hilarious. Every competitive game revolves around knowledge checks. Imagine playing chess and wanting gambits to be banned because you don’t know (refuse to learn) how to counter/play around them
at 1:20 I think he was going for the nana trump but missed. If you land right on the edge, nana will drop and grab ledge and will trump while popo stays on stage and can still react to ledge options or a successful trump. It's much less risky, and I could be wrong about Big D's intention, but I assume that was what his plan was.
The simplest way I can explain the Steve matchup is to outrange him and don’t let him get iron
I play Sephiroth and Steve so the main thing is trapping Steve at ledge
It’s really hard to do that against a good Steve player though
Aged like fine wine
I feel like the "90 MU checks argument" is a bit flawed in a sense that there's quite a lot of overlap in how one would approach MUs with their character. there's only so many truely unique characters you have to prepare for individually Like Steve, Pac-Man, G&W and such. The others all fall into certain architypes like "Chargeshot characters" or "fast rushdown" or "swordie" and they usually share a lot of counterplay options.
Yea but you get the idea
Dude, after watching Double Wown, Acola is the only real threatning Steve, the other top players destroyed really easy American Steves.
imagine if you went back in time and told Sakurai that his casual party game's competitive scene would be being dominated by minecraft steve
Do you mean Sakurai? Lol
@@marlinmurrell620 nah he meant miyamoto
Miyamoto???
He would be like スティーブは誰ですか？ あなたは誰？ 英語は話せません
@@marlinmurrell620 lmao oops
Steve actually looks fun to watch it's sad pro players always want to ban a character before learning counter play
This is me 8 months later. Everyone wants him banned and no consistent counterplay has been formed yet.
The counterplay is being Sparg0 lmao
I'm 100% convinced that Coney's Big Gulps are filled with alcoholic beverages.
"He even hasn't gone up against Leo or Maister yet"
Uh oh
absolutely didn't expect the duel links background music, had to check if I had the game open
6:50 I love how they chose to show this untrue combo as an example of what Steve can do. Have you SEEN this man's ladder combos with blocks? They are unparalleled. Hit's you with one up tilt and you take like 60%.
Half of the combo characters can do that in their sleep.
Steve isn't metagame warping like MK and Bayo was. Does he make you play the way he wants? Sure. But do other fighting games ban characters that make you use more than 2 braincells? No. They don't.
If we didn't ban Bayo in smash 4, we shouldn't ban Steve. Sincerely, a salty Marth main and formerly someone who cared about playing smash seriously beyond casual play. I will not play Lucina.
Oh, btw, we need more tourneys like GimR's, and we need people to play on more stages like FoD and shit. Seriously.
The stage list is genuinely a problem. PS2 is great and all but cmon man.
Lots of top players have the same opinion on FGC characters (MkLeo mostly) about how unSmash they are..which sucks cuz they earned their place in that roster, just like Minecraft
I think the problem is that The Smash Community has been gaslit into thinking that only the DLC characters are strong, especially if a non-american uses them (seriously, what's up with japanese players winning US majors with unorthodox picks being at the focus of controversies in every fighting game, it happened with Rangchu and a guy in MvC3 who used Viewtiful Joe). The Smash Community is also the community that has more insecurities regarding making the game spectator-friendly than any other competitive scene. Melee Puff was considered for a ban not because she was overpowered, but because Hbox had a ultra-defensive playstyle, which made tournaments less entertaining to watch if you wanted to see 20XX on display. Wobbling, despite having counterplay and counter-counterplay created around it, was banned mostly because it wasn't exciting to watch two icies pummeling a Fox on a specific rhythm. Other fighting games would only resort to bans whenever the characters were grossly overpowered (with exceptions such as Wyler in Art of Fighting 3)
I swear you could have a character with 100% play rate and 0 to death combo off a frame 1 projectile from full screen and smash players would still be like: idk, not that broken, dont ban.
Coney? On a Tuesday? That's crazy!
My big issue with Steve is that Steve can actually prevent a lot of characters from recovering. He can literally build blocks at the ledge to prevent ledge grab which at that point makes the game do not go off stage because if you do, Steve will wall you off. Characters like Mewtwo, Palu, Greninja, Pikachu, Cloud and quit a few more just are not allowed to reciver with Steve and no other character other than Steve can do anything close to ledge trapping or blocking like Steve can. Generally speaking, I definitely do not like to play against Steve or even play as him because I find it campy and boring. When I win with Steve I dont even feel good, I just feel like a child playing Steve and won because of the characters BS mechanics.
Does it deserves a ban tho
personally, I think with the whole steve thing maybe you should learn the matchup or find a counter pick the reason that Bayo and Meta should have been banned was that no one could beat them a long way into the games life
14:38
Tweek has lost to Yonni Ddog and Steffen all with Sephiroth 💀💀💀
i think as a community we should all just exclusively play min min and cloud against steve so they get mad they have to play there worst matchups every single set and quit
I do think it would be cool to have a tournament, not the main one at an event but a side one, where you can ban characters just for that game like they do with stages. In paladins competitive, there is a 5 minute draft where you take turns picking the overwatch like character and also ban 2-3 characters for each side.
Be interesting if they did that for sets, everyone thinking a steve player is just riding him, but then he brings out a really good wolf that no one has seen. It would reward the players that can compete with the most characters. It would make you think, is his paula worse than his cloud???
2:05
Honestly, In terms of smash: Keef, Coney, and Choctopus. Literally the only good ones.
fav bit for goml, is yes there's a steve, but ice climbers are there too
kirby with blocks is actually freaking terrifying
NIL uptilt and NIL fsmash confirms while being a multijumper
Only good in twos otherwise he facing against Steve in singles
I think this is just left over PTSD from Smash 4 Bayo 😂
Hearing good things about Keef Crew Makes me so happy
It's almost like a super unique and fun character based on the biggest game in the world is actually attracting tons new players who are dissecting the character.
Meanwhile Smash vets: No Fun, only Fundies.
I think the problem is people wait for it to become a problem and by the time they come up with a solution the games already dying and they're working on the next one.
I think a lot of people have PTSD from bayo and don’t want one character to take over. While Steve isn’t as broken as bayo, however, as coney said himself, YET.
Lol the knowledge check bit. Had me DEAD.
I remember when young Steven just came out and the only sets I could find of him were Salem playing him
The Steve is no where near meta knight or for Wii U as Steve is just obnoxious to play against because he promotes his opponents to play his own game. Remember when jiggly puff slow campy play style was boring and obnoxious to deal with in Melee and it makes it's fast pace game slow and boring. Because of that many wanted Jigglypuff banned from melee tournaments, as Steve in ultimate is just that, stage counter pick Steve and learn the match up.
Because of keef, my friend group cant hear "under night in birth" the same
Coney is right, get your ass of ps2 and go anywhere else.
Steven Minecraft is just busy playing his own game
Minekart is like mechakoopa if bowser jr was top tier
A knowledge check isn't "Do you know how to respond to this move". A knowledge check is a character that's really difficult and annoying unless you know how to deal with them, at which point they become useless. A good example of this is Smash 4 Cloud, who was really hard for mid level players to deal with but top players knew how to play around him.
smash 4 cloud or steve are not useless when you learn the matchups wtf
theScore eSports (specifically the dude whos in this vid) is known for terrible/biased/incorrect takes. Suprised he still has a job.
Steve isn't an iconic character from an iconic game, not like a bear and bird from two mid platformers and a knex set
lol I think I'm going to try out Steve for a bit. I have an elite K rool and at the top of the top, the best player I have ever fought was a steve player. He had so much GSP it would not let him go higher. Literally player me over and over and his GSP never moved.
As we saw this weekend, I minmin did pretty well against steve
I think it’s incredibly weird that people are taking the possibility of a Steve ban way too seriously. This isn’t cancel culture. Steve didn’t say a racial slur or have a history of abuse. He is just a video game character in a Nintendo crossover children’s party game who has a different playstyle than the rest of the 80+ character roster. Even if he does get banned, what will come of it? Is every #BanSteve#Please advocate gonna run out into the streets and celebrate like it’s the end of World War 2?
This is why I never wanted Steve. I knew he would be annoying as fuck since a big part of his source game is mining materials and crafting tools (both are literally in the name).
If steve always had iron tools and didn't spend 70% of the game mining and building his own house I wouldnt hate him. But watching a steve sit there and mine for 70% of the game to then kill someone for approaching at 0% is not fun. It's the same story as with Sonic players. They have the fastest character in the game, and all they use that speed for is running away.
It's just awful to watch
Steve doesn't spend 70% of the match mining. If he did, he'd just be mining for resources he already has most of the time. And he doesn't kill people at 0 most of the time. He does get 60-80% combos, but that's entirely different from killing.
@@toowiggly i've seen plenty 0 to death true combos from steve, or 50/50's that lead to death from 0. And okay they atill don't approach after mining. They throw out a minecart and keep mining straight after
So basically this is jigglypuff 2.0.
"Our game is fast and fun and has cool neutral and combo game, and this *THING* is an antithesis for what *WE* decided the game *SHOULD* be! All they do is sit over yonder and not engage and I have to adapt to it!"
Jesus Christ, as long as Steve and Jigglypuff and whatever other dumb ass character your game has is present and is most likely not gonna be changed, you just have to accept them as a part of the game and do something about it!
Adapt and overcome or perish like a dog, your choice.
MkLeo's final form will be him maining Steve one day, if that guy could make Rob look god-like its only a matter of time he gets tired of trying to stop Steve mains and instead joins their ranks, that truly will be the bad ending for Smash ultimate.
Also people always talk about Smash 4 Bayo when Smash 4 Diddy was a thing
Steve beats the top tier characters but loses to characters like Min Min and Sephiroth that can consistently out range him.
Many people:Ban Steve he is too op we can't win against him
Me that destroy Steve with Donkey Kong:Hold My Spikes
Reflect button fully counters Steve
Coney do I have good news for you
Hey Coney, as funny as the “knowledge check” segment was, it was actually very useful info for a newbie. Do you have/know of a video that goes through each of these counter strategies?
Some good tunes in this ep.
4:26
I've always wanted mementos to be legalized. That stage is cool af.
If you wait a year to ban Steve it'll just be Bayonetta all over again.
People will have learned it and people will cry when the banhammer falls on Steve.
If you're gonna ban him, you gotta do it now, otherwise, he'll stay, and another Zack will show up.
Fuck Zack.
Why find a specific character you'd need to play to compete against Steve, when you could just play another game?
Coney rlly just said updoots eh
I just find it funny that the guy in the video said Steve players haven't fought "top players like Leo spargo and Tweek" and I'm pretty sure Tweek has a negative record against Steve players lmao
It doesn't really mean anything just funny to think about. He was one of the first victims lol
Duck Hunt can is best counter to minecart recovery
it really doesnt matter if steve is hard to play or not.. the game is in a healthy state if it is fun to play and fun to watch. Its helping if a character is really toxic to fight against, only because its not easy.
People will adapt to Steve like they do to everything. Just learn the matchup. I’m not saying it’s easy. I don’t know the matchup but it’s possible. People just need to switch it up
I think we should all start playing Ultimate the way it was meant to be played: non-competitively. The quicker we can accept that the quicker we can have fun with the game instead of ragging Sakurai to give competitive balances to the game when it wasn't meant to be competitive
Honestly a bad take, sorry.
People like competition. That will never change.
With this mindset we could just eliminate all sports competitions because "playing basketball was never about winning, but having fun =)"