Slavic paganism is seen by many as basically the continental European version of Norse paganism (with sometimes good reason), so could you make a video about that subject too?
@@DarthFhenix55branches of the same faith, yes. None of the unreformed faiths would be as in sync as, say, Catholicism or any branch of an organized faith, but they're certainly the same religion. The problem is that each tribe would have its variation, and how to render that in game.
@@Northraider123 not quite. Imagine the different branches of Christianity, really Protestantism. The same faith, but different rites, beliefs and practices, instead of different churches (Baptist, Presbyterian, Lutheran and others) you have different tribes. To use the Germanic (Norse) faith as an example, it what's now southwestern Germany, there was a tribe whose holy site was a grove (open air), but the Swedes instead had a temple (actual building) at Uppsala. Similarly, while Thor had the place of honor at Uppsala, it was Seaxneat (possibly Tyr) for the Saxons. All the same gods, but different importance (Imagine the "Patron Gods" tenet, but for the entire tribe), different ways of worship, different types of religious centers. The same gods different feats/names may well be applicable between Norse/Slavic/Baltic gods, however. I don't know as much about Baltic and Slavic beliefs, but I know that Thor/Perun/Perkunas seem to be very similar, with all of their names happening to mean "Thunder". Sadly, I don't believe there are any records of what people in these religions thought of the others.
Lejre, and also Zeeland, supposedly a Norse cult centre, were actually holy sites on release but that was changed to York and Kiev, probably for balance.
I think some of the norse holy sites are more like cultural centers for the norse people (with exception of kiev i guess?) Paradox problably did this cuz since not all religions have the concept and/or practice of pilgrimage they decided to replace "holy sites" with "cultural sites". Even more so since they have so many religions and all of them need at least 3 holy sites
Kyiv was a place , where many norse were , this was trade route to Byzantine. Tho it's strabge that there were no norse holy site in Konstantinople , or even other trade routs like Volga river (norse traded with Persia using Volga river)
While the thumbnail already implied it I'm kinda disappointed that ukonusko isn't covered. It had an intresting relationship with the germanic scandinavians (weren't sami seers still hired by rulers after christianization or am i misremembering that?)
The current title too. Scandinavia is only Sweden, Norway and Denmark. Only later did they expand their rule up north into Sami and east into Finnic lands
The Ásatrú, or more appropriately, Germanic Pagan, Holy Sites in CK3 weren't chosen solely to make interesting gameplay decisions. Paderborn, for example, was almost certainly chosen due to its location not far from the hypothesized location of the Irminsul, a site considered sacred to the Saxon Pagans, who practiced a similar form of paganism to the Vikings. Ranaheim in Norway similarly has historical significance, as it was mentioned in the sagas and was also home to one of the largest heathen hofs in Norway, which was just recently uncovered back in 2010. Jorvik and Kiev, on the other hand, have a more tenuous religious connection, but were likely chosen due to both being important sites of Viking conquest.
Saxon Paganism was as similar to Norse paganism, as Danish Paganism is to Swedish paganism. They were neighbours who spoke similar languages, shared folk traditions and recognised a common heritage. There's even the myth of Angul and Dan, depicting a common mythological ancestor for both the English and Danes. However the continental Angles (English) spoke a language more similar to their Saxon, west Germanic neighbours then they did their Danish North Germanic neighbours showing just how closely linked the Germanic people are. We don't know what the continental Anglic language was like beyound them leaving an impact in England, but it likely would've looked like a gradual transition from the Saxon language, up to the Jutish and Danish one (in crusader kings, the Jutes are accurately depicted as Norse by the Viking age but once spoke the North Sea language of the Saxons, Angles and Frisians).
I always thought that swapping the ck2 Norse holy site in Denmark for the ck3 one in Kiev was an intentional nerf of the Norse faith by PDX that they gave a flimsy justification for. Edit: yeah and the swap from Zeeland to Jorvik was weird, but is probably for gameplay reasons to enable Danelaw Asatru shenanigans.
Both were for gameplay reasons. The holy sites before were to close together so it was easy for the AI to snowball, and for players to reform the faith.
@@Miranda17137quite a few do actually, iirc tengri and taoism have 6 but i could be wrong on that, it just seems like 5 is an arbitary number chosen for no particular reason and i really feel like more faiths should have more holy sites
I personally think they should've placed the Konungardr Asatru holy site in Zeeland but keep the holy site in York. Even before the Viking age, "Asatru" had been practiced in England by the native English. "Asatru" is just widespread Germanic paganism according to the gamefiles. It doesn't make too much sense to overly divide pagan religions anyway. We don't need a different Hellenic faith to represent each and every single Mediterranean city state that ever existed.
@@southronpapist i remember when there was 3 holy sites, uppland, sjaelland and prandheimr, with decent diplomacy and a war with sigurd i could be ready to (minus saving up the piety) reform asatru long before year 900. by the time i form normandy for norman culture, the early medieval age is ready to start. my favorite viking start for a dynasty. granted i learned the game on harald fairhair in 867 so i know how to form norway ( Noregr) from a single county in like 10 years its super easy tbh. love viking playthroughs!
I am from the region near Paderborn and we have the "Externsteine" Here, a stone formation, which also has some myths around it and it is being used even today to show and inform about german pagan Tradition. Maybe that also helps the Case for Paderborn being a holy site.
I curious about Slavic christianization. It would nice for a video on how all the Slavs christianized. The forms of Christianity in Slavic kingdoms also vary, it would interesting to learn why some adopted orthodoxy, and some catholic. Then you even have other strange Christian denominations like the bogomils in Bulgaria.
The Bogomils were Gnostics that were not simply just spread to a pagan population. The Bogomils were apparently the Eastern branch of the western Cathars and in fact, the Cathars were likely to have originated from the Bogomils. That's all I know about Bogomils personally.
I reformed Asatru with the tenet "Christian Syncretism". It does provide a unique taste of both diplomacy and warfare, through which you can conquer weaker rulers while maintaining friendly relations with stronger ones. Conversion of the christian lands dramatically slows down, though...
Putting a holy site in Kyiv is still a mystery to me. And the reasoning that it would be too easy to reform kinda falls flat, when you look at the suomenesko faith, that has 3 sites in close proximity. As a dane im still fuming we didn't get a holy site at Lejre lol.
@@dr0g_Oakblood Probably was, tho it makes no sense what so ever. All stories of the Kyivian norsemen have them convert to christian orthodoxy in the early 900's. Making Kyiv more of a 'norse/slav' cultural site rather than a religious one.
As a Swede I will say your pronunciations are perfect! The only (and I mean only) criticism I can give is that the way the Swedish names are pronounced it feels very forced and insecure. Believe more in yourself
Tack så jättemycket! Jag har bott i Göteborg för två ars från 2020, men jag har inte pratat för lite tid. Det var fint att öva svenska med platser och namn för detta video! - Oliver (berättare)
@historyinbits Very cool. If you do not mind me saying, I personally prefer conversations online to be in English so people can understand. But yeah having only been here for two years your pronunciations is superb.
@@historyinbits Very cool. If you do not mind me saying, I personally prefer conversations online to be in English so people can understand. But yeah having only been here for two years your pronunciations is superb.
Concerning the holy sites, I remember when the game first released, there was an Asatru holy site in the Netherlands, I'm pretty sure it was referring to the site of the sacred tree that the Frisian pagans worshipped at until Charlemane cut it down and forcibly converted them to Christianity. So while certainly a holy site for a religion that was related to Asatru, even if the Norse pagans didn't worship there.
9:15 Well yeah it's not the word "Forn sed" that was used in medieval times but I wouldn't call Asatro a new word when SAOB(Swedish dictionary) already mentioned it by 1820.
Great video! I hope you keep these coming, I'd love to see you cover more of the Cultures and faiths! One thing to note on the Patreon gods, while I don't think it'd be a more important aspect than, say, ancestor worship (which Asatru had on launch) it's casually mentioned throughout Norse Sagas, like Egil Skallagrimmson mentioning in his Sonnatorrek that he pledged himself to Odin, indicating that (at least some) people pledged themselves to individual gods. I think I remember reading a mention of this in Saga of the Jomsvikings as well. That said, Egil was a poet, adventurer and warrior, so it kinda falls into his lap that Odin would be his focus, I'm not sure that's special devotion or simply the shoe fits. The special focus could be (as you noted) regionally as well, rather than individual such as with Egil, like in Uppsala with Thor having the place of honor over Odin.
Thanks for sharing that example, that’s just the sort of thing I was looking for when researching this video actually, which is when I stumbled across Hrafinkl. It would be interesting to try to find an example of patron god worship amongst ordinary folk, but considering the lack of sources that may be lost to history. Place names might be our only clue!
@@historyinbits with pleasure! I'm glad you're making these kinds of videos! I would if I knew how. I didn't want to use the example of Hrafinkl because of him holding a religious role (To me, that sounds more like the religious duty of his specific temple than an individual thing like Egil.) On the whole it seems... Unnecessary? Like, the Sagas mention you should call on Ullr in duels, and should carve Tyr's name into your weapons, which makes the idea of a patron just... Off. They were pretty holistic when it came to their pantheon outside of specific temple focus on a few or one god. I don't know what was going on with Egil. If you'd like what he says "I was in league with the 'Lord of spears' pledged myself loyal to believe in him, before he broke off his friendship with me, the guardian of chariots, Architect of victory." I'll have to find what's said about the patron in Jomsvikings, but I think it was a Jotunn, weirdly enough.
An interesting topic would be Zoroastrianism, as CK3 seems to have some weird parts of the religion that I couldn’t find any proof for. Particularly, the Sun Trial. Sounds badass, but it seems really weird for them to have actually done this, and it’d be interesting to see where that comes from.
Very good video, just one detail, "casus belli" isnt a christian value, as the term and political belief in a "just cause" pre-dates christianity and is found instead within old religious legalism
Yes you’re completely right. I guess what would be more accurate to say would be that Christian doctrine limited followers of the faith from indiscriminate warmongering.
Shoutout to Ångermanland, one of my favourite places in Sweden. Also great pronounciation honestly! Modern swedish is hard and old swedish is even harder lol
That's my take on paganism in Crusader Kings as a whole. It's absolute bullshit but really fucking fun to play, there's something narratively awesome about "native pagans unite under a single religious tradition to throw foreign Christians out of their lands".
The ahistorical holy sites really is to nerf the AI, and annoying players as a side effect. Asatru is, probably for obvious reasons, the most played pagan faith by the players, so maybe PDX thought it would make things more interesting to scatter three of the five holy sites very far away. Doing so virtually guarantees the AI never reforms it into an organized faith because it's difficult for the AI to create and keep a realm encompassing three holy sites, so they are much more likely to convert to Catholicism like they did in history.
The Baltic would be an interesting place to look at, with Vidilism being the easiest Faith to reform (4 counties as a chieftain, or 6 counties continuous), not to mention the old Baltic Prussian, Pomeranian (and by extension Polabian), and Lithuanian & Latvian (latargelian, forgot how to type it) cultures, and Estonian having Varangian adventures for some reason.
Its weird to hear things like the idea of pilgrimages not being a thing at all to the Norse people given their penchant for traveling and going "a viking" even though none of that has anything to do with each other. It does make sense though.
I personally think pagan "pilgrimage" was kind of like the opposite of an abrahamic pilgrimage. You go away from familiarity, instead of towards it, in order to achieve more closeness to divinity.
The only problem i have with the norse is that they NEVER convert in 867 start date and you always have to deal with 10k Swedish (and estonian for some reason) death stack always coming to raid your shit
Why are you saying Könugarör? The name in game and I believe in Scandinavian languages is Könugardr (sorry I can't find this type of d that used in game). Nice video btw
I hope you do a video on Ukonusko and Vidilism cuz I've never heard of them before the game. Hell I thought the Sapmi had a different religion from the Fins
Awesome I suggested a video about the 1066 asatru Vikings a while back nice to see you make a video on it. I’m wonder will you be covering the new Persia dlc and it’s historical characters anytime soon?
I think the pagan groups being divided into smaller groups isn't entirely helpful, many of them where very similar but practiced in degrees differently but the reformation is an attempt to consolidate the religion into a solid baseline. Also without having many actual holy sights in the religion, a holy sight in the region of another group could also be shown as a show of force to achieve to make a statement, "Our Religion is great and mighty look how far our gods have gotten us, now take this consolidated book of our whole beliefs and follow me!." So it can be treated as showing off how serious you are in your pursuit of reformation and show your validity.
i don’t get why PDX doesn’t make holy sites fluid and able to be made or destroyed, some mods like EK2 do it and it’ll make a lot of sense for the Asatru as the HRE holy site can be made if it’s liberated
I'm really confused, I remember playing ck3 and having the Holy sites be in different locations, more like the ck2 map. Did they change the locations since launch?
Before the “Northern Lords” DLC, Zealand was actually a holy site of Ásatrú, after Northern Lords, they moved it to Paderborn. Still don’t get Kyiv though
OK, so the justification is flimsy and it was definitely for game balance, but I think I know why Kyiv was picked - it's believed that the Kievan Rus was ruled by Viking descendants and Kyiv was originally settled by a mix of native Slavs and Viking settlers. So it was picked more as a cultural site than a true holy site.
I hope the mention of Thor Olsens gate in Oslo was a joke, because it has nothing at all to do with the old gods and everything to do with a 19th century merchant by the name of Thor Olsen.
About the Holly Sites, the only 2 that are defendable are Sigtuna and the one in Germany, the Germanic religion was a Precurser to the North Religion however that german holly site would not hold any weight for the Norse.
Well instead of just taking it with a pinch of salt, you can also compare what they wrote to other indo-european mythologies and see if these beliefs repeat or have equivalents. Although yes there's things to question, for example, the Norse passed down their oral traditions through musicians, which is probably why we find Odin depicted as the king of the gods as Odin was a god associated with Skalds (musicians). However in the temple of uppsala, Thor was given the central position, seated on a throne and depicted like a king visually. Odin being associated with sound, and Thor associated with light, Thor being the "Son" (an equivalent?) of Odin and with the equivalent of Thor often being the king of the gods in other myths (such as Jupiter. Odin associated with Mercury) this has some very fascinating implications that Odin was King over sound, but Thor over light. Both sound and light is energy interpreted in a particular way by the senses.
Very good video, though I must leave many of my personal opinions & observations for this one "Christianisation of Scandinavia happened from top to bottom" This is only somewhat true. The process happened just like everywhere else. First it's popular with the slave population, and then it jumps up to the powerful positions themselves. "These elites did not need to be Christian as feared and respected Vikings" But not elites were not bands of outcasted raiders. A Norse elite did not raid any more then their ancestral ancient Germanic elite. In fact, when the Anglo-Saxons first arrived in Britain, which could be said to be the first Vikings speaking a similar language and the same religion; the constant raids and eventual settlement was even more extreme then the Norse Vikings. The Romans had to actually build a network of fortresses called the "Saxon Shore" because of it. It's worth pointing out that during the time the saga's were wrote, people were still very familiar with their ancestral pagan beliefs and oral traditions. The depiction of Germanic pagan beliefs by Snorri Sturluson actually aligns & compares with the beliefs found in many other Indo-European mythologies where many just always presume a Christian influence (like pagan heaven having golden gates, not actually just a Christian concept). Though it must be said that Christians indeed Christianised their local legends, however this was much more the case in Britain & Ireland then Scandinavia. All ancient pagans had patron gods, but you are right to point out that they didn't dedicate themselves entirely to a single god like the pagan gods in the middle east. There's stories of men who dedicated themselves to a god and established temples for them in the saga's. It is certainly strange that they chose specifically the Asatru to have patron gods over other religions. "The idea of a pilgrimage was not a thing for the Norse" All ancient religions in Europe likely had this concept, or an equivalent. If you look into the portrayal of Odin as a brimmed hatted, wandering traveler similar to Hermes/Mercury, you find the archetype of the "Pilgrim", a traveler on a quest to obtain knowledge. Paradox should've never made 2 awkwardly placed holy sites for Asatru. Even justifying it as "this is where Vikings conquered" doesn't make sense as the game isn't going to play out exactly where they historically settled. They should move the Kiev holy site to somewhere the Germanic religion was historically practiced. The Jorvik holy site is a good choice as Asatru are already settled there (same is true for Kiev but they usually immediately adopt Slovianskan, which wouldn't have been an issue for the rest of the Asatru's), attempting to found the Danelaw. Also, the English 200 years prior to the 800's practiced much of the same rituals and shared the same beliefs as the Norse. Paderborn absolutely is a good location for a holy site. The conquest of Saxony by Charlemagne was not at all "insignificant" to the neighbouring Norse who had to build the Danvirk (a giant wall) to keep the Franks out of Denmark in the early Viking age. The Danes also assisted the Saxons in their struggle, and the Saxons continued to rise up against their Frankish overlords even into the early 800's whilst many took refuge in Denmark. There's even a quote from an old Charlemagne crying about the incoming wrath coming from the north as a consequence of his actions. Although many historians will never accept it because they presume everyone was self centered primates during this time, Frankish aggression was extremely likely to have been a significant factor in kickstarting the Viking age. Although ofc most Vikings (particularly later on) indeed raided for selfish reasons, the first targets to be struck by Vikings was Lindisfarne (important place of conversion for the English and they sent out many missionaries to the Saxons and Norse), then Iona which is similar to Lindisfarne. I've also heard of evidence of Christian communities in Scandinavia at this point suddenly being ousted and their churches destroyed in Scandinavia. Many Dane invasions were initially concentrated around Frisia and Saxony. The Danes indeed attempted to take Saxony for themselves but settled for Frisia who were Germanic pagans that had also been crushed under Frankish aggression. The Danes then targeted England afterwards with the Great Heathen Army, which was likely comprised of adventurers across Scandinavia who must've felt united by some common cause. Perhaps it's all just a coincidence, but I don't think it's likely that the Danes did not see their own future in what happened to the Saxons and sure enough, the Holy Roman Empire indeed invaded Denmark but failed. However they invaded again and was halted by Haraldr Bluetooth's conversion to Christianity. So I'd say Paderborn, which was a site symbolising the World Tree to Germanic pagans, is a very good place to put a Asatru holy site. In ck2, they also picked Zeeland in Frisia, which was an important site for the worship of the 3 Matronae (the Norns) for both Germanic, Celtic and even Roman pagans (such things often merged and were only differentiated by linguistics for pagans).
@@historyinbits I could be offended as a catholic, but im sure you were merely jesting... Otherwise I have something for you which you surely didnt expect :p
I feel the "pagan" region pilgrimage mechanics need a rework. Right as of now they simply mirror the mechanics of the Christian one. Meanwhile the Muslim one is destinct to their beliefs. Realistically the Norse only ever went on pilgrimage to the Temple of the three patrons in Uppsala, but there is no evidence to even support that. All the other "holy sites" are simply assumed locations of importance, with one 'the world tree' being the only other location of some significance historically but even by the time of the viking era too had fallen into legend as it was only important to the Saxons and only they knew where it was. A lot of what we see done in CK3 completely ignores historical accuracy and instead suplants it with modern tokenistic revisionism and low fantasy for the singular purpose of being politically correct and non offensive to anyone who might get upset. This has also creeped into EU4 of late too as of the past 4 years. None of the Crusader Kings games have been historically accurate. If they were, they'd upset a lot of people, because the modern world is built on the lies of those in the early middle ages intentionally covering up and rewriting history to justify their devine right to rule. (This is why we will never get an official 8th century start date in CK3 like we did in CK2 due to the events of that time period these days are shouded in a lot of modern controversy)
Why do you presume the Saxons were like some totally different culture to the Norse? They were as different as Macedonian Greeks to Dorian Greeks for example. There's a lot of cultural continuity and religious continuity there but many seem obsessed with dividing ancient people into little separate nations with no sense of common origin (which there's more evidence against then for). Just look into Dan & Angul, Beowulf (the English national hero who was actually a Geat/Goth from modern Sweden), etc.
Your pronunciation of what seems like an attempt of pronouncing goði sorry to say is not correct, the ð is pronounced with a th- sound, pronounced the th for example like God or character Thor.
Please!, could you stop using the word "Paganism" is is wrong in so many ways, it clearly displays your ignorance of language, history and religion. What does it mean? It comes from Latin "Paganus" meaning peasant, and came to be in the time when Christianity had established itself in the ruling class of the Roman Empire, and was used to describe the Non-Christian beliefs, of the peasantry. It quickly became a derogative for Non-Christians, similar to the later "Heathen" and in the same attitude of Barbarian and Infidel. It is useless in describing ancient religions, as it at best only tells you that it isn't Christian, and at worst denigrates ancient beliefs into mere superstition, instead of acknowledging their complexity and cultural importance. If you went back in time to 9th century Scandinavia, and asked a person if they were "Ásatrú", they would answer "yes of course", because yes they do belive in the Æsir. So even if "Ásatrú" as a word is a modern construct, it would be a word that would easily be understood by a 9th century Scandinavian. If you said to them that they were "Pagan" they wouldn't understand you, and if you explained to them what it meant, you would get your arse handed to you.
Crying about the word pagan😂 what, are vikings going to appear to rape and murder me for saying pagan?😂 get over it, its just a word to refer to lesser faiths at the time
@@finger3306 Yea there you go "lesser" faiths, you are totally ignoring the cultural impact the Nordic pantheon had for hundreds of years, and still have today. Also, Vikings are irrelevant for the faith, they weren't a cause or effect of the beliefs of the Norse.
2:50 that is a lie. Lithuania was the last state to be christianized in Europe. It could also be streched to Ugro-Finnish pagans in Eastern Europe such as Perm who would also accept christianity around 14-15th century.
a video on the remnants of the scythian, sogdian and sarmatian cultures in game would be interesting
Great idea!
That IS a good idea!
I fourth this!
@@historyinbitsfr please do this
@@historyinbitsWhat is that Insular thing shown in Ireland? I'm pretty sure Ireland was Catholic at this time.
Slavic paganism is seen by many as basically the continental European version of Norse paganism (with sometimes good reason), so could you make a video about that subject too?
Was it a single religion tho? I thought it was more a classification of religions with similar traits like animism.
@@DarthFhenix55branches of the same faith, yes. None of the unreformed faiths would be as in sync as, say, Catholicism or any branch of an organized faith, but they're certainly the same religion. The problem is that each tribe would have its variation, and how to render that in game.
@@normanfury8259bit of a "same gods different names/feats" situation?
@@Northraider123 not quite. Imagine the different branches of Christianity, really Protestantism. The same faith, but different rites, beliefs and practices, instead of different churches (Baptist, Presbyterian, Lutheran and others) you have different tribes. To use the Germanic (Norse) faith as an example, it what's now southwestern Germany, there was a tribe whose holy site was a grove (open air), but the Swedes instead had a temple (actual building) at Uppsala. Similarly, while Thor had the place of honor at Uppsala, it was Seaxneat (possibly Tyr) for the Saxons. All the same gods, but different importance (Imagine the "Patron Gods" tenet, but for the entire tribe), different ways of worship, different types of religious centers.
The same gods different feats/names may well be applicable between Norse/Slavic/Baltic gods, however. I don't know as much about Baltic and Slavic beliefs, but I know that Thor/Perun/Perkunas seem to be very similar, with all of their names happening to mean "Thunder". Sadly, I don't believe there are any records of what people in these religions thought of the others.
@@normanfury8259 that's a pretty good explanation
Lejre, and also Zeeland, supposedly a Norse cult centre, were actually holy sites on release but that was changed to York and Kiev, probably for balance.
I think some of the norse holy sites are more like cultural centers for the norse people (with exception of kiev i guess?)
Paradox problably did this cuz since not all religions have the concept and/or practice of pilgrimage they decided to replace "holy sites" with "cultural sites". Even more so since they have so many religions and all of them need at least 3 holy sites
Kyiv was a place , where many norse were , this was trade route to Byzantine. Tho it's strabge that there were no norse holy site in Konstantinople , or even other trade routs like Volga river (norse traded with Persia using Volga river)
While the thumbnail already implied it I'm kinda disappointed that ukonusko isn't covered. It had an intresting relationship with the germanic scandinavians (weren't sami seers still hired by rulers after christianization or am i misremembering that?)
The current title too. Scandinavia is only Sweden, Norway and Denmark. Only later did they expand their rule up north into Sami and east into Finnic lands
i think i remember that, when the game first came out, Lejre was actually a holy site, but was changed because of gameplay reasons like you said
Aah good to know, didnt remember that!
It also is in CK2
Yes it is!
The Ásatrú, or more appropriately, Germanic Pagan, Holy Sites in CK3 weren't chosen solely to make interesting gameplay decisions. Paderborn, for example, was almost certainly chosen due to its location not far from the hypothesized location of the Irminsul, a site considered sacred to the Saxon Pagans, who practiced a similar form of paganism to the Vikings. Ranaheim in Norway similarly has historical significance, as it was mentioned in the sagas and was also home to one of the largest heathen hofs in Norway, which was just recently uncovered back in 2010. Jorvik and Kiev, on the other hand, have a more tenuous religious connection, but were likely chosen due to both being important sites of Viking conquest.
Saxon Paganism was as similar to Norse paganism, as Danish Paganism is to Swedish paganism. They were neighbours who spoke similar languages, shared folk traditions and recognised a common heritage. There's even the myth of Angul and Dan, depicting a common mythological ancestor for both the English and Danes. However the continental Angles (English) spoke a language more similar to their Saxon, west Germanic neighbours then they did their Danish North Germanic neighbours showing just how closely linked the Germanic people are. We don't know what the continental Anglic language was like beyound them leaving an impact in England, but it likely would've looked like a gradual transition from the Saxon language, up to the Jutish and Danish one (in crusader kings, the Jutes are accurately depicted as Norse by the Viking age but once spoke the North Sea language of the Saxons, Angles and Frisians).
@@aidansumner8364Jutes are descendants of Goths
Goths became Geats who became Jutes
I always thought that swapping the ck2 Norse holy site in Denmark for the ck3 one in Kiev was an intentional nerf of the Norse faith by PDX that they gave a flimsy justification for.
Edit: yeah and the swap from Zeeland to Jorvik was weird, but is probably for gameplay reasons to enable Danelaw Asatru shenanigans.
Both were for gameplay reasons. The holy sites before were to close together so it was easy for the AI to snowball, and for players to reform the faith.
I wish Pdx would let faiths have more than five holy sites; Hindu faiths break this rule and it's fine.
@@Miranda17137quite a few do actually, iirc tengri and taoism have 6 but i could be wrong on that, it just seems like 5 is an arbitary number chosen for no particular reason and i really feel like more faiths should have more holy sites
I personally think they should've placed the Konungardr Asatru holy site in Zeeland but keep the holy site in York. Even before the Viking age, "Asatru" had been practiced in England by the native English. "Asatru" is just widespread Germanic paganism according to the gamefiles. It doesn't make too much sense to overly divide pagan religions anyway. We don't need a different Hellenic faith to represent each and every single Mediterranean city state that ever existed.
@@southronpapist i remember when there was 3 holy sites, uppland, sjaelland and prandheimr, with decent diplomacy and a war with sigurd i could be ready to (minus saving up the piety) reform asatru long before year 900. by the time i form normandy for norman culture, the early medieval age is ready to start. my favorite viking start for a dynasty. granted i learned the game on harald fairhair in 867 so i know how to form norway ( Noregr) from a single county in like 10 years its super easy tbh. love viking playthroughs!
I am from the region near Paderborn and we have the "Externsteine" Here, a stone formation, which also has some myths around it and it is being used even today to show and inform about german pagan Tradition. Maybe that also helps the Case for Paderborn being a holy site.
The case really doesn't need "Help". Paderborn is a stronger case for a "Asatru" (Germanic Pagan) holy site then even Sigtuna and Tondeheim/Nidaros.
I curious about Slavic christianization. It would nice for a video on how all the Slavs christianized. The forms of Christianity in Slavic kingdoms also vary, it would interesting to learn why some adopted orthodoxy, and some catholic. Then you even have other strange Christian denominations like the bogomils in Bulgaria.
The Bogomils were Gnostics that were not simply just spread to a pagan population. The Bogomils were apparently the Eastern branch of the western Cathars and in fact, the Cathars were likely to have originated from the Bogomils.
That's all I know about Bogomils personally.
I never clicked on a video that fast
I reformed Asatru with the tenet "Christian Syncretism". It does provide a unique taste of both diplomacy and warfare, through which you can conquer weaker rulers while maintaining friendly relations with stronger ones. Conversion of the christian lands dramatically slows down, though...
The ck2 holy sites you mentioned were actually used in ck3 before Norse lords came out when þey were replaced with York and kyve
Putting a holy site in Kyiv is still a mystery to me. And the reasoning that it would be too easy to reform kinda falls flat, when you look at the suomenesko faith, that has 3 sites in close proximity. As a dane im still fuming we didn't get a holy site at Lejre lol.
As a swede i agree that they should haved keept the one in denmark
I always figured the swap from the Danish holy site in ck2 to Kiev in ck3 was an intentional nerf on behalf of the devs lmao.
@@dr0g_Oakblood Probably was, tho it makes no sense what so ever. All stories of the Kyivian norsemen have them convert to christian orthodoxy in the early 900's. Making Kyiv more of a 'norse/slav' cultural site rather than a religious one.
As a Swede I will say your pronunciations are perfect! The only (and I mean only) criticism I can give is that the way the Swedish names are pronounced it feels very forced and insecure.
Believe more in yourself
Tack så jättemycket! Jag har bott i Göteborg för två ars från 2020, men jag har inte pratat för lite tid. Det var fint att öva svenska med platser och namn för detta video! - Oliver (berättare)
@historyinbits Very cool. If you do not mind me saying, I personally prefer conversations online to be in English so people can understand.
But yeah having only been here for two years your pronunciations is superb.
@@historyinbits Very cool. If you do not mind me saying, I personally prefer conversations online to be in English so people can understand.
But yeah having only been here for two years your pronunciations is superb.
Concerning the holy sites, I remember when the game first released, there was an Asatru holy site in the Netherlands, I'm pretty sure it was referring to the site of the sacred tree that the Frisian pagans worshipped at until Charlemane cut it down and forcibly converted them to Christianity. So while certainly a holy site for a religion that was related to Asatru, even if the Norse pagans didn't worship there.
I haven't even seen the video yet but i know i love the concept so much i already subscribed
For modders of CK3, Lejre is coded, but unused.
I love these videos man, they cover some areas of history I majorly gloss over usually
9:15 Well yeah it's not the word "Forn sed" that was used in medieval times but I wouldn't call Asatro a new word when SAOB(Swedish dictionary) already mentioned it by 1820.
Would love to have a video on Perisa now that its updated ❤
I think the fallen eagle mod does a much better job in terms of German Pagan religions
Great video! I hope you keep these coming, I'd love to see you cover more of the Cultures and faiths!
One thing to note on the Patreon gods, while I don't think it'd be a more important aspect than, say, ancestor worship (which Asatru had on launch) it's casually mentioned throughout Norse Sagas, like Egil Skallagrimmson mentioning in his Sonnatorrek that he pledged himself to Odin, indicating that (at least some) people pledged themselves to individual gods. I think I remember reading a mention of this in Saga of the Jomsvikings as well. That said, Egil was a poet, adventurer and warrior, so it kinda falls into his lap that Odin would be his focus, I'm not sure that's special devotion or simply the shoe fits. The special focus could be (as you noted) regionally as well, rather than individual such as with Egil, like in Uppsala with Thor having the place of honor over Odin.
Thanks for sharing that example, that’s just the sort of thing I was looking for when researching this video actually, which is when I stumbled across Hrafinkl. It would be interesting to try to find an example of patron god worship amongst ordinary folk, but considering the lack of sources that may be lost to history. Place names might be our only clue!
@@historyinbits with pleasure! I'm glad you're making these kinds of videos! I would if I knew how. I didn't want to use the example of Hrafinkl because of him holding a religious role (To me, that sounds more like the religious duty of his specific temple than an individual thing like Egil.)
On the whole it seems... Unnecessary? Like, the Sagas mention you should call on Ullr in duels, and should carve Tyr's name into your weapons, which makes the idea of a patron just... Off. They were pretty holistic when it came to their pantheon outside of specific temple focus on a few or one god. I don't know what was going on with Egil. If you'd like what he says
"I was in league
with the 'Lord of spears'
pledged myself loyal
to believe in him,
before he broke off
his friendship with me,
the guardian of chariots,
Architect of victory."
I'll have to find what's said about the patron in Jomsvikings, but I think it was a Jotunn, weirdly enough.
An interesting topic would be Zoroastrianism, as CK3 seems to have some weird parts of the religion that I couldn’t find any proof for. Particularly, the Sun Trial. Sounds badass, but it seems really weird for them to have actually done this, and it’d be interesting to see where that comes from.
Very good video, just one detail, "casus belli" isnt a christian value, as the term and political belief in a "just cause" pre-dates christianity and is found instead within old religious legalism
Yes you’re completely right. I guess what would be more accurate to say would be that Christian doctrine limited followers of the faith from indiscriminate warmongering.
Can you make a video about Rurik and how well Paradox portrayed the Rus?
Shoutout to Ångermanland, one of my favourite places in Sweden. Also great pronounciation honestly! Modern swedish is hard and old swedish is even harder lol
"Complete bollocks but yeah it's pretty cool." That was pretty much my take on the whole Asatru thing in general 😂🤣
That's my take on paganism in Crusader Kings as a whole. It's absolute bullshit but really fucking fun to play, there's something narratively awesome about "native pagans unite under a single religious tradition to throw foreign Christians out of their lands".
Thank you for these videos they are really interesting
Thank you for watching our videos!
The ahistorical holy sites really is to nerf the AI, and annoying players as a side effect. Asatru is, probably for obvious reasons, the most played pagan faith by the players, so maybe PDX thought it would make things more interesting to scatter three of the five holy sites very far away. Doing so virtually guarantees the AI never reforms it into an organized faith because it's difficult for the AI to create and keep a realm encompassing three holy sites, so they are much more likely to convert to Catholicism like they did in history.
asatru is still very strong because it has poet and one eyed as a virtue and every faith can have good tenets anyways
love to hear you pronounce the names of sweden and the rest of scandinavia
The Baltic would be an interesting place to look at, with Vidilism being the easiest Faith to reform (4 counties as a chieftain, or 6 counties continuous), not to mention the old Baltic Prussian, Pomeranian (and by extension Polabian), and Lithuanian & Latvian (latargelian, forgot how to type it) cultures, and Estonian having Varangian adventures for some reason.
Its Latgalian not Latargelian
Lovede the video, keep up the great work!! :D
Its weird to hear things like the idea of pilgrimages not being a thing at all to the Norse people given their penchant for traveling and going "a viking" even though none of that has anything to do with each other. It does make sense though.
I personally think pagan "pilgrimage" was kind of like the opposite of an abrahamic pilgrimage. You go away from familiarity, instead of towards it, in order to achieve more closeness to divinity.
Amazing video as always
The only problem i have with the norse is that they NEVER convert in 867 start date and you always have to deal with 10k Swedish (and estonian for some reason) death stack always coming to raid your shit
they do convert by the year 1000-1100 like all the other pagans
they never convert? in my games Ásatrú never lives much past 150-200 years outside of my realm
Why are you saying Könugarör? The name in game and I believe in Scandinavian languages is Könugardr (sorry I can't find this type of d that used in game). Nice video btw
it is refreshing to see someone put effort in proper pronunciation for the non-english words
You need to make a video on Persia since they just updated it.
Very good video. I liked it.
I hope you do a video on Ukonusko and Vidilism cuz I've never heard of them before the game. Hell I thought the Sapmi had a different religion from the Fins
Awesome I suggested a video about the 1066 asatru Vikings a while back nice to see you make a video on it. I’m wonder will you be covering the new Persia dlc and it’s historical characters anytime soon?
And it was a great suggestion! We were thinking of doing a part 2 for our Persia video with the DLC updates!
I think the pagan groups being divided into smaller groups isn't entirely helpful, many of them where very similar but practiced in degrees differently but the reformation is an attempt to consolidate the religion into a solid baseline. Also without having many actual holy sights in the religion, a holy sight in the region of another group could also be shown as a show of force to achieve to make a statement, "Our Religion is great and mighty look how far our gods have gotten us, now take this consolidated book of our whole beliefs and follow me!." So it can be treated as showing off how serious you are in your pursuit of reformation and show your validity.
you should make an episode based on the latest dlc
if my memorie serves me right the holy site in Lejr was a thing in ck3 before the viking dlc
i don’t get why PDX doesn’t make holy sites fluid and able to be made or destroyed, some mods like EK2 do it and it’ll make a lot of sense for the Asatru as the HRE holy site can be made if it’s liberated
I'm really confused, I remember playing ck3 and having the Holy sites be in different locations, more like the ck2 map. Did they change the locations since launch?
Apparently they did!
coud you make a video about the Christian's kingdoms Nubia and Ethiopia and the Christians of Egypt
Great vid
Before the “Northern Lords” DLC, Zealand was actually a holy site of Ásatrú, after Northern Lords, they moved it to Paderborn. Still don’t get Kyiv though
OK, so the justification is flimsy and it was definitely for game balance, but I think I know why Kyiv was picked - it's believed that the Kievan Rus was ruled by Viking descendants and Kyiv was originally settled by a mix of native Slavs and Viking settlers. So it was picked more as a cultural site than a true holy site.
Now THIS is freaking epic. 😎
Great video and oddly good pronounciation for a non scandinavian, colour me impressed!
I hope you can cover the Baltics at some point.
my current game has all of denmark and its territories converted to Judaism (Rabbinism to be more specific)
Can you do persia in 867?
I love playing Nordic rulers it’s my favorite start
great video can you do one on slovensko paganism
I hope the mention of Thor Olsens gate in Oslo was a joke, because it has nothing at all to do with the old gods and everything to do with a 19th century merchant by the name of Thor Olsen.
21:10
"## Zeeland
# (Retired) Focal point for an old major Germanic cult. Probably."
Probably because it was too close to the other ones?
Paderborn is located in teutoburg forest so it give some credence
19:32 You know who else is a descendant of Norse rulers? King Charles III. And also *you*, probably, dear reader.
About the Holly Sites, the only 2 that are defendable are Sigtuna and the one in Germany, the Germanic religion was a Precurser to the North Religion however that german holly site would not hold any weight for the Norse.
Yes
the other thing about the sagas and edda is they were written by Christians, so anything written in them you have to take with some salt.
Well instead of just taking it with a pinch of salt, you can also compare what they wrote to other indo-european mythologies and see if these beliefs repeat or have equivalents. Although yes there's things to question, for example, the Norse passed down their oral traditions through musicians, which is probably why we find Odin depicted as the king of the gods as Odin was a god associated with Skalds (musicians). However in the temple of uppsala, Thor was given the central position, seated on a throne and depicted like a king visually. Odin being associated with sound, and Thor associated with light, Thor being the "Son" (an equivalent?) of Odin and with the equivalent of Thor often being the king of the gods in other myths (such as Jupiter. Odin associated with Mercury) this has some very fascinating implications that Odin was King over sound, but Thor over light.
Both sound and light is energy interpreted in a particular way by the senses.
Very good video, though I must leave many of my personal opinions & observations for this one
"Christianisation of Scandinavia happened from top to bottom" This is only somewhat true. The process happened just like everywhere else. First it's popular with the slave population, and then it jumps up to the powerful positions themselves.
"These elites did not need to be Christian as feared and respected Vikings" But not elites were not bands of outcasted raiders. A Norse elite did not raid any more then their ancestral ancient Germanic elite. In fact, when the Anglo-Saxons first arrived in Britain, which could be said to be the first Vikings speaking a similar language and the same religion; the constant raids and eventual settlement was even more extreme then the Norse Vikings. The Romans had to actually build a network of fortresses called the "Saxon Shore" because of it.
It's worth pointing out that during the time the saga's were wrote, people were still very familiar with their ancestral pagan beliefs and oral traditions. The depiction of Germanic pagan beliefs by Snorri Sturluson actually aligns & compares with the beliefs found in many other Indo-European mythologies where many just always presume a Christian influence (like pagan heaven having golden gates, not actually just a Christian concept). Though it must be said that Christians indeed Christianised their local legends, however this was much more the case in Britain & Ireland then Scandinavia.
All ancient pagans had patron gods, but you are right to point out that they didn't dedicate themselves entirely to a single god like the pagan gods in the middle east. There's stories of men who dedicated themselves to a god and established temples for them in the saga's.
It is certainly strange that they chose specifically the Asatru to have patron gods over other religions.
"The idea of a pilgrimage was not a thing for the Norse" All ancient religions in Europe likely had this concept, or an equivalent. If you look into the portrayal of Odin as a brimmed hatted, wandering traveler similar to Hermes/Mercury, you find the archetype of the "Pilgrim", a traveler on a quest to obtain knowledge.
Paradox should've never made 2 awkwardly placed holy sites for Asatru. Even justifying it as "this is where Vikings conquered" doesn't make sense as the game isn't going to play out exactly where they historically settled.
They should move the Kiev holy site to somewhere the Germanic religion was historically practiced. The Jorvik holy site is a good choice as Asatru are already settled there (same is true for Kiev but they usually immediately adopt Slovianskan, which wouldn't have been an issue for the rest of the Asatru's), attempting to found the Danelaw. Also, the English 200 years prior to the 800's practiced much of the same rituals and shared the same beliefs as the Norse.
Paderborn absolutely is a good location for a holy site. The conquest of Saxony by Charlemagne was not at all "insignificant" to the neighbouring Norse who had to build the Danvirk (a giant wall) to keep the Franks out of Denmark in the early Viking age. The Danes also assisted the Saxons in their struggle, and the Saxons continued to rise up against their Frankish overlords even into the early 800's whilst many took refuge in Denmark.
There's even a quote from an old Charlemagne crying about the incoming wrath coming from the north as a consequence of his actions. Although many historians will never accept it because they presume everyone was self centered primates during this time, Frankish aggression was extremely likely to have been a significant factor in kickstarting the Viking age. Although ofc most Vikings (particularly later on) indeed raided for selfish reasons, the first targets to be struck by Vikings was Lindisfarne (important place of conversion for the English and they sent out many missionaries to the Saxons and Norse), then Iona which is similar to Lindisfarne. I've also heard of evidence of Christian communities in Scandinavia at this point suddenly being ousted and their churches destroyed in Scandinavia.
Many Dane invasions were initially concentrated around Frisia and Saxony. The Danes indeed attempted to take Saxony for themselves but settled for Frisia who were Germanic pagans that had also been crushed under Frankish aggression. The Danes then targeted England afterwards with the Great Heathen Army, which was likely comprised of adventurers across Scandinavia who must've felt united by some common cause. Perhaps it's all just a coincidence, but I don't think it's likely that the Danes did not see their own future in what happened to the Saxons and sure enough, the Holy Roman Empire indeed invaded Denmark but failed. However they invaded again and was halted by Haraldr Bluetooth's conversion to Christianity. So I'd say Paderborn, which was a site symbolising the World Tree to Germanic pagans, is a very good place to put a Asatru holy site. In ck2, they also picked Zeeland in Frisia, which was an important site for the worship of the 3 Matronae (the Norns) for both Germanic, Celtic and even Roman pagans (such things often merged and were only differentiated by linguistics for pagans).
Its impossible to know its forgotten faith and what is left are written accounts muddled and twisted by christians
The video itself was epic, but the part at 20:27 was pure cringe :D
Gotta be cringe sometimes :)
@@historyinbits I could be offended as a catholic, but im sure you were merely jesting... Otherwise I have something for you which you surely didnt expect :p
@user-ml6xc1hh8t If you say so, user-ml6xc1hh8t, then it's probally right. You seem to be an expert on creative names.
I feel the "pagan" region pilgrimage mechanics need a rework. Right as of now they simply mirror the mechanics of the Christian one. Meanwhile the Muslim one is destinct to their beliefs. Realistically the Norse only ever went on pilgrimage to the Temple of the three patrons in Uppsala, but there is no evidence to even support that. All the other "holy sites" are simply assumed locations of importance, with one 'the world tree' being the only other location of some significance historically but even by the time of the viking era too had fallen into legend as it was only important to the Saxons and only they knew where it was. A lot of what we see done in CK3 completely ignores historical accuracy and instead suplants it with modern tokenistic revisionism and low fantasy for the singular purpose of being politically correct and non offensive to anyone who might get upset. This has also creeped into EU4 of late too as of the past 4 years. None of the Crusader Kings games have been historically accurate. If they were, they'd upset a lot of people, because the modern world is built on the lies of those in the early middle ages intentionally covering up and rewriting history to justify their devine right to rule. (This is why we will never get an official 8th century start date in CK3 like we did in CK2 due to the events of that time period these days are shouded in a lot of modern controversy)
Why do you presume the Saxons were like some totally different culture to the Norse? They were as different as Macedonian Greeks to Dorian Greeks for example. There's a lot of cultural continuity and religious continuity there but many seem obsessed with dividing ancient people into little separate nations with no sense of common origin (which there's more evidence against then for). Just look into Dan & Angul, Beowulf (the English national hero who was actually a Geat/Goth from modern Sweden), etc.
Your pronunciation of what seems like an attempt of pronouncing goði sorry to say is not correct, the ð is pronounced with a th- sound, pronounced the th for example like God or character Thor.
Most/all dialects of Norwegian, Swedish and Faroese will not use that sound
2:50 that is a lie. Baltic pagans were the last to be christianized in Europe.
Come on, we all Know Erik was a black woman, not a norse man.
Is this like a reference to a show ?
@@dunbass7149 to the new (well, from 2021) Vikings series
@@RuslanMathers oh cool I’ve heard of it, Is it like the bbc Viking series ?
Please!, could you stop using the word "Paganism" is is wrong in so many ways, it clearly displays your ignorance of language, history and religion.
What does it mean? It comes from Latin "Paganus" meaning peasant, and came to be in the time when Christianity had established itself in the ruling class of the Roman Empire, and was used to describe the Non-Christian beliefs, of the peasantry. It quickly became a derogative for Non-Christians, similar to the later "Heathen" and in the same attitude of Barbarian and Infidel.
It is useless in describing ancient religions, as it at best only tells you that it isn't Christian, and at worst denigrates ancient beliefs into mere superstition, instead of acknowledging their complexity and cultural importance.
If you went back in time to 9th century Scandinavia, and asked a person if they were "Ásatrú", they would answer "yes of course", because yes they do belive in the Æsir.
So even if "Ásatrú" as a word is a modern construct, it would be a word that would easily be understood by a 9th century Scandinavian.
If you said to them that they were "Pagan" they wouldn't understand you, and if you explained to them what it meant, you would get your arse handed to you.
Crying about the word pagan😂 what, are vikings going to appear to rape and murder me for saying pagan?😂 get over it, its just a word to refer to lesser faiths at the time
@@finger3306 Yea there you go "lesser" faiths, you are totally ignoring the cultural impact the Nordic pantheon had for hundreds of years, and still have today.
Also, Vikings are irrelevant for the faith, they weren't a cause or effect of the beliefs of the Norse.
Are you plural? Lol
pog
2:50 that is a lie. Lithuania was the last state to be christianized in Europe. It could also be streched to Ugro-Finnish pagans in Eastern Europe such as Perm who would also accept christianity around 14-15th century.
“One of the last regions”, not the last region :)
he said ONE of the last not THE last
What about the Mari people to the west of the Permians who still practice (a heavily Christianised) paganism to this day?
I salute your efforts at pronouncing my goofy ahhh language 🫡 (you say Swedish names quite well)