Very well done. I had my lithium’s shut down on me last year and wouldn’t take charge. Did the same thing as described with another battery and woke up the charger. Great questions and a great report. Keep up the good work
082220/1628pst. That was the most intelligent discussion, educational even. The presentation was not scripted, the two people exchanged views and comments that came out quite naturally, which is very commendable. The gentleman in yellow Jacket explained well to the other gentleman, who was quite inquisitive to understand the intricacies of flooded Pb cell batteries and the LiFePo4 batteries, or the comparison between the two. I have yet to come across such intelligent program in YT in my life. No comments on “ others!” You know what I mean ! Thank you, both of you. My respects and 73s...
We just upgraded from AGM's to Lithiums by building our own battery bank on our sailboat (we liveaboard) using 180 amp hour, 3.6-volt CALB cells, and a DALY BMS, wiring the cells in a 4s2p orientation. So stoked on the upgrade! We charge our lithiums in 2 different ways. We send the power from our 120 amp Balmar alternator on our engine to our 100 amp-hour sealed lead-acid starter battery. From there a Renogy 60 amp DC-DC charger takes the load from the alternator and puts it in a lithium profile and in turn charges the lithium batteries. It was a fun build!
I'm afraid I have to disagree with the prismatic being better. Especially in an off road scenario. Cylindrical cells are wound tightly and encased in a metal casing, This minimizes electrode material from breaking up from mechanical vibrations, thermal cycling from charging and mechanical expansion. The complete opposite to prismatic construction ! Remember those Optima glass matt super tough off road starter batteries from the 90s? No coincidence each cell was constructed in a cylindrical manner.
Very unclear definition as there are several DIFFERENT Lithium battery technologies. Main known ones are LiPo and LiFePo. The former is used in phones, Electric cars etc as it has higher energy density. But also the known ,explosive fire, variety. It use allows smallest size for given energy capacity. The storage battery presented is LiFePo variety, where the far more stable, less fire prone technology is better, at small loss of energy capacity for given volume is of no concern. But for clarity this presentation should not refer to just 'Lithium' battery but state the technology specifics. Even the optimal charging is affected by Lithium technolgy used.
I’ve a lithium and matched with a redarc BCDC the advantages are amazing . Just the weight and capacity are enough on why I really like my set up. Steve 🇦🇺
You asked all the right questions, and Heiner answered very well. The first thing he answered well, was that the Lithium battery case is just a "housing" of the bits inside, so that case and how it looks is the thing that actually confuses everything...because if the look the same, then it should be the same, and that is where the issue starts. Lithiums are fantastic BUT you have to match and design it to work how you want, and unless you are technical at heart, you will struggle. You just started to touch on connecting multiple batteries at the end of the clip, and that is really when it gets complicated...if you need 24V or >200AH...then you really need to match and understand....whereas AGM's you can really still connect them in parallel and/or serial as you see fit, and when you need to...LifePo4 need planning. Great Video.
As someone that's trying to get a rig put together, and looking at the differences between these two batteries I really appreciate all this information, especially about how bad of an idea it is to put a lithium battery under the hood. Tons of great information here, thank you! I'll have to check out more of your video's. :D
I just bought an Ultra lead carbon battery, which so far seems amazing in terms of charging speed from Solar and can go to deeper discharge than AGM. (same price as AGM) Biggest issue for me with battery systems is the ridiculous prices for the DC to DC chargers like red arc.
Mark Jennings You are correct in the price for the Battery management systems as lithium set up is expensive (chargers or bms), i have a back up power system in the house and was advised not to go lithium because of the risk of thermal runaway inside a house. AGM's have there down side but until lithium batteries is improved a bit more i will stick with the old tried and tested AGM batteries.
Great video and really helpful. The comment about Prismatic cells confused me as it conflicted with some other research I have done. What I have identified is that some manufacturers provide protection both in terms of physical (explosion proof jacket) and electrical (internal fuses) at a cell level. Prismatic cells are bigger and therefore both more dangerous in the case of explosion and cylinder cells. Cylindrical cells because there are more of them, have more redundancy at a cell level so a problem with a single is less likely to be as serious. So it may be more true to say that the quality of the cells used is more important, and a reflection of cost, than whether they are prismatic or cylinder.
So for engine compartment stored batteries. Extreme heat with lithiums is a concern in the desert temps of 100°f plus. Under hood temps can reach 200°f plus. The interior/cab alone here in south west Arizona can reach 122°f.
I'd like to add, where they rate the cycle life (2000cycles at 70% DoD for eg). It's my understanding it's a rating until the original capacity has reduced to 80% (100ah battery now holds 80ah). So essentially the life of the battery could go for many thousands more cycles with slowly diminishing capacity.
@@Y.D.M.P then add another 1000 cycles at 50% DoD while the battery has 80% of its original capacity and you've got yourself ? maybe 60% of its original 100ah when you bought it so if you just ran a 50L fridge thats 8+ years and youd still have a 60ah battery that could last another 1000 cycles at 50% DoD.......... ~i need a lithium battery~
@@VEOPengineering actually it's pretty good for 18650 lithium ion cells. Alot of the spec sheets say 500-1000 cycles. Those Winston lifepo4 cells seem to be rated at 5000 cycles 80% DoD. That's what I've made my packs with and can't fault them. No noticeable capacity loss after 6 years.
I’d never buy a battery based off 18650 cells. They don’t last and were never designed for this kind of application or for high discharge rates. My lithium can discharge at 250a constant (I have 2 under bonnet ) and rated for -20 to +80c temps and 3year full replacement warranty applies. This means I have 500a available for my winch, and that’s with the car turned off. My 200amp alternator can charge direct at 200amp to the battery no external bms so from flat to full is 1 hr. At idle I gain more charge in 30mins than solar could provide all day and I can run a 3000w invertor as well. Those cheap batteries can run a fridge and charge up some phones, camera batteries but lack the real performance. Cut them open and the bms is very basic and count the cells and they don’t match the claimed capacity
@@VEOPengineering We are talking about 2 different lithium battery chemistries here. I too would not buy a battery based off 18650 laptop cells. I however don't let them go to waste and build "Powerwalls" with them for other projects. My house runs off big lifepo4 cells. And I keep the charge between 30-90% at the extremes. That's a very high C rate to charge your batteries in 1hr. Impressive none the less. Lead acid is archaic in comparison and reminds me of a sieve that leaks alot of the energy put into them. Yep those inbuilt BMS are the limiting factors for lithium discharge rates. It makes people think they don't compare to AGM. But it's the complete opposite. Also lifepo4 is a safe battery chemistry. A Shame this wasn't explained properly in the video.
I learned a lot from this. Thank you. I could put a lithium starter under my seat in my Defender but then I heard 1. The price and 2. The trickle charge issue. So I'll stick with AGM for my starter battery.
Should i/should i not wire a winch to my secondary lithium battery and use winch while running engine, or always wire winch to lead acid starter battery and use when engine running?
Excellent discussion. However, here in the US we have a wide range of weather. During the year I can travel areas where the temperature can vary between -10 (-23C) to 115 (46C). At his time lithium batteries have complications when dealing with weather extremes that my 8D AGM’s don’t have. I’m excited about lithium battery potential, but right now they don’t answer all my needs like an AGM does.
Amazing video Andrew! Easy to understand and great information for all of us. I've been dying to get hold of a Lithium Battery in Malaysia but can't find one. Keep up the great work you are doing for the 4x4/overlanding community!!
Great video Andrew. Heiner (sorry if I misspelt his name) is fantastic at giving clear explanations of the technology and the function of the batteries. You both did a great job. Really enjoyed it and feel much more confident about the value and limitations of lithium batteries. Thanks lads.
Interesting to see that AGMs (and FLAs) still "win" for certain applications such as under the hood of a car. Also, the guy wrongly said that a high current draw from an AGM battery lessens the capacity. That is not true. It doesn't significantly lessen the capacity of the battery, it just lessens the effective capacity of the battery at that higher amperage draw. For example, if a 100Ah rated AGM battery has 50Ah of usable energy (without damage to the battery) rated at the 20 hour drain rate, that means you can draw 2.5A for 20 hours to get 50Ah out of the battery (assuming a healthy fully charged battery). However if you instead put a 25A load on that same fully charged battery, then you wont get 2 hours @ 25A. You might only get 1.5 hours, but that doesn't mean the battery dropped to only 37.5 Ah usable energy. You can still extract the "missing" 12.5 Ah, just at a slower rate (such as the 2.5A rate). I suggest that draining the batteries either way (either 2.5A for 20 hours) or 25A for 1.5 hours, then 2.5A for 5 hours (both are 50Ah of drain), will leave the battery is a similar state of charge (around 50%). If you don't believe me, try it. I usually do capacity tests on batteries that way. I use a high drain rate until my inverter beeps (usually at 10.5V under load), then I lighten the load and keep going.
I learned all of this when I quit smoking and started vaping , hahaha. Li-on batteries are great. Seems like there could be a little capacitor that would at least allow the charger to "see" the battery when its flat though. It will get normal really soon. AGM batteries are gonna be antiques .....maybe in the morning
if you want to start your car with it, there are AGM batteries on the market eg.: Enersys EP, XE; Odyssey extreme, Powersafe SBS, Interstate MTZ,... example: Enersys XE16 12V 16Ah Crankingamps: >600A or Odyssey PC2250 12V 125Ah Crankingamps: 2250A
Great video, Andrew. I have just got into lithium power, all the factors of this new technology add up and significantly outweigh the larger initial outlay in dollar terms. I won't even mention the weight savings
Most lithium ion batteries are made in China, then a company puts its name on it. The weak point of these can be the bms . When buying a battery, ask questions about the bms , if they can’t show you one or give you the proper specs in writing go elsewhere. A great source of information on this subject is Will Prowse’s RUclips channel.
as a RC enthusiast, the LiFePO4 batteries are the future if you want reliability, long term storage and cold weather operation. If you want larger capacity, straight lithium cells like a 18650. If you need high draw, fast discharge and recharge, LIPO. and I define high draw as 30-40C, as in draining 100ah in 5 - 10 minutes. Think drones or arc welding.
The cut off is in alot of the chargers, if the charger knows it is a lithium battery that has fallen under a certain voltage, it will not charge it because the insides of the battery "May" catch on fire due to insides of the battery being damage. If you trick the charger to think it is not a lithium cell and charge it above a certain voltage, you can continue to recharge the lithium cell battery as a lithium cell. This worked for me.
Andrew. I am looking to replace my three 110amp 7 year old Full River AGM deep cycle batteries . The batteries are housed in a rack under the tray of my Iveco 4x4. I became keen on the Enerdrive e power B tec lithium batteries. Reading the fine print the Enerdrive are not suitable for fitment in exposed weather eg under the tray for a 4x4 truck or under the chasis of a caravan.Is that the norm for lithium in general? Also some suppliers are saying lithium should not be connected in series. Say if I want to add an additional battery later.
LiFePO4 is a rollercoaster in my present build decision making. Yes there is deep discharge and high cycle life ability, very high (95%) Watt-hour efficiency and superb energy density per kg . However, very few products seem to have a convincing CCA rating for emergency engine starting, most prohibit in-series use to make 24V without more complex BMS, charging and general use below 0 Deg C seems restricted to 5% Amps of Ah size and/or need for heating mats. My latest discovery switching me off again is risk of alternator burnout due to very high current even when charging at low rpm when alternator cooling fan performance is low, demanding alternator temperature controlled charge regulation. I'm rapidly concluding some low capacity CCA rated AGMs and a small homemade Honda GX35 24V APU charger generator is the way ahead to back up plenty of PV and possibly a yacht type wind charger . LiFePO looks great for domestic offgrid however.
I know others have stated this already but if anyone has questions about LiFe (lithium) batteries, battery management, whats good and whats garbage...go over to DIY Solar, Will Prowse's channel and watch some of his beginner videos. You'll learn a ton and its all honest info. All this electrical stuff seems complicated but once its explained correctly its not too bad. The takeaway for me has been "Go with lithium" like a Battle Born or other quality make.
I bought 2 of those amptron batteries last year, havent installed them yet, just charged them and put them in the shed. Pulled them out last week and one was completely dead and would not wake up via jumpstart or via a proper power supply at a certain voltage. Its currently going back for investigation.
I learned a few things with this one, recently I also chose lithium. However, my biggest concern while choosing was not mentioned in this video: cold weather charging. Most lithium batteries bms will shut down bellow 0º to avoid damaging the cells. That's the only thing I would have liked to see mentioned in here. (Not a concern in Australia or South Africa I assume). Thanks for the great videos.
Love your work Andrew! Keep it up! I had so many questions about Lithium batteries and this is very insightful and answer almost all my questions, except 1. Almost all battery chargers and gauges measure the voltage of the battery to determine its state of charge. But since the Lithium battery has a virtually constant voltage (until shutoff), how do you measure/determine its state of charge?
I have one big question left after this brilliant and very educational video: how or more when you gonna charge these batteries, when they don't like to be charged all the time by just a little. I mean, practically, you charge them, start your trip, use them for let's say 1 day and they are down to 70%. Do you then just switch off the charger and wait until it's down to 10% and only then switch the charger back on? But then you plan to just stay in one place for another 2 days but then your battery is flat?! How this works in real life?
I had a lead crystal battery have a cell or 2 drop late last year and it was replaced under warranty. I note this only to note that they clearly could supply the replacement in Australia.
read some reviews, they don't like cold temperatures, and charging can be a issue unless you spend Big dollars getting the correct chargers unless you want them to fail/die after a period. Also i have some people telling me of thermal runaway inside there campers.
very good information about lithium batteries for today they are the best but very expensive and the bms circuit prevent thermal runaway and causing the battery to explode from short circuit condition . the only thing to worry about lithium battery is physical puncture. they say it lasts 2000 cycles but in realty it reach alot lower than 2000 . using a smart power charger that record the charging and discharging curve (1st cycle recordings )using a constant load and this information can be compared to curves example after reaching 600 cycles if the curves are 20% in difference expect the battery is fading away and can't last longer when it was brand new .
NOT LITHIUM! An AGM can deliver higher amps (current), but its amps/hr (current over time) is considerably lower due to voltage drop. Winches pull huge current, so not suited to winching. By far best for winching are flooded lead-acid starter batteries.
4xoverland lithium can be used for winching and starting but you need the right battery. Basic lithium’s are for accessories only and generally use lower quality cells. I’m happy to show you some (not trying to sell you anything, just to update your information). I can supply 250a constant current which is a lot higher than lead acid or agm.
Genuinely USEFUL information . I am doing a Build currently after being off the " Scene " for a LONG time . I know how to build a Killer Off-roader , but this kind of tech I am way out of Date on .
I've got a question for Heiner. He lays out an argument for not using Lithiums as starting batteries. I'm still weighing up whether to do it or not and have a query. With the Lithiums that are built with management systems so they can be charged by the car's alternator, would the 'cutting off' of the battery by their inbuilt battery management system once it's reached maximum charge damage the alternator? I've always been told that disconnecting the battery while the car is running or running a car without a battery harms the alternator and will eventually destroy it. Does Heiner have any insights into that? Thanks.
The most important question and answer (for me!) was the very last one; "why 2x 100ah batteries v. 1x 200ah battery." To add to the electrical engineering answer Heiner gave, unlike AGM/Flooded batteries, you can easily add more batteries to the system later. That means you can start with 1x 100ah battery + DC/DC charger+charger/inverter+MPPT solar controller for your system and then after your cardiologist bills are paid due to the sticker shock, you can buy another 100ah lithium and add it into the system ;-)
Lithium Iron Phosphate cells (prismatic) batteries (like this one) are not as energy dense as some lithium chemistries but are essentially inert, so they are suited to situations where the size is less important, for example larger vehicles.
I've spent years touring remote parts of Australia & spent a fortune on building my truck over time.. take it from me after testing multiple battery set ups, lithium IS the way to go & far superior to AGM batteries for your accessories/gadgets etc.. costly yes but not really considering the overall benefits.
One cannot effectively charge a LifePO4 battery directly from an alternator. The voltages don't match. Beware of what the battery makers say to get you to buy their batteries.
Richie P Will is a genius on Lithium batteries and BMS but not specialized on electric systems used in mining, heavy duty used 4x4 and off-road camper vans. Heiner is the expert on that for Australien conditions. That the point in this vid. Cheers
After having Lithium for deep cycle battery for nearly 6months there is no going back to Agm in my main 4wd. 1. Lighter weight for same physical size. 2. As said about 100amp battery. Agm you get 50amp usage and maybe 1000cycles Li you get 80amp and 2000cycles. 3. The higher voltage of Li means less amps used 4. The quickness of recharging Lithum is main reason never going back to AGM in 4wd. Can charge at 1/4 of battery rating up to 95% capacity. So 100amp battery can take 25amps until 95% then goes to float charge. In 3 engine hours full battery with the right dcdc charger or if using solar to charge when sunlight is strong the battery usually accept all of the amps being produce and not shedding it as in agm charging cycle. If cycle between 30 and 70% charge it is in theory able to cycle 5000 times
Hi Andrew, I have a 120ah Lead crystal battery have done for a few years, after watching the video and the comment of possibly not being able to purchase Lead crystal batteries in Australia anymore, I had a look and there appears that you can still purchase them. Trailer camper Australia was one of the sellers.
Was about to pull the trigger on a iTechWorld 120x lithium battery that can easily go under the bonnet (apparently), I’m thinking twice now. I’m soo bloody confused! 😩
The iTechworld will say they can go under the bonnet because they want to sell you a battery. They are misleading the public in a lot of their publicity. Fact is, all LifePO4 based batteries can go under the bonnet and will work. BUT . . . every one will have a decreased lifespan if you do. Words don't change the physics. Is it worth investing in Lithium if you are going to decrease its working life by heating it up - or cooling it to freezing point? Both extremes affect its life span.
@@4xoverland thanks Andrew I appreciate your advice. I think I’m now going to look into slimline lithium battery to go into my vehicle & not under the bonnet.
ok, so i'm researching Lithium for off grid power for a home. what I feel makes a big difference is with AGM you should not discharge more than 30% - 50% often before recharging to conserve life. lithium you can cycle deeper to 80% + without shortening the life. now you can reduce your battery capacity by 1/2 for storage reasons. ie, I use 7Kw/day and would like to have 3 days storage before charging, hence with agm, I need a 70KW bank, with lithium, I can use a 35Kw bank. agm charge slowly, and at a rate of no more than 10% capacity, lithium is 30%. so far, lithium is winning for off grid for me.
Discharging & recharging any battery will shorten its life. A 35 KW Li-Ion a battery bank will cost approx $30,000 every 10 years vs a 70 KW Lead-Acid battery bank will cost approx $4,500 every 5 years. Therefore, Li-Ion is no bargain. Are your pockets lined with GOLD ?
I think you can run a Lithium Batterie direct conected via BMS (Batterie Management System) to the alternator. As well as via solar charger and BMS. The BMS ( at least mine) will bring down the charging current to the amount the batterie wants. What do you think?
Thank you for the video. Where is the optimal place to store the lithium battery if not in the engine bay? Inside a locked car during summer the temp can also be over 40 etc?
It all comes down to the BMS most lithium batteries that are used in RC cars can easily deliver several hundred amps despite being only a few AH in capacity, granted they are usually a slightly different chemistry but I wouldn't be suprised if the cells inside that battery could deliver 500amps easily. A top notch BMS could easily be used as a replacement for a starter battery if you mounted somewhere it wouldn't get too hot whether that's worth the price or not is another thing entirely though.
Newish AC chargers, such as the Noco genius family, now have the "force mode" where you can push current through when the battery has very low voltage/undetectable, which would happen in a lithium iron phosphate when the BMS goes into low voltage protection and the voltage sense at the terminals becomes ineffective. I bet future Dc-Dc chargers will also begin including this mode as an option if they haven't already.
I’ve just installed a 1500w inverter to make coffees on the road, I’ve got 1x 100amp agm and 1x 75amp agm with my car running and a 40amp dcdc charger charging the 2 batteries the voltage drops to 11.6v from 14.4v . I’ll be interested to see how many cycles I get .
The new technology is Lithium Titenate. They are fire proof and damage proof. They are 20,000 cycles ie life- time batteries . Also you can charge them in ten minutes. You can discharge them at massive amperages also. These will function from -59C to +65C- LTO - AWESOME!
Any Radio Ham, who uses an ICOM IC-7000 transceiver, may like to know, that this radio can shut-down if the input voltage is less than ~12V DC. There are devices, that can boost voltage to slightly above 12V, to enable the radio to function, even if the input (to the boosting device) drops below 12V, but, this adds ~$100 to the total system cost... due to an ICOM design glitch, IMO. Worse (at least in AU): The case of an IC-7000 tends to run warm to hot, even in Receive-mode. I once sold an IC-7000, due to this "overheating" issue, when I was working in the Outback, in warmer seasons. Some warm days would "help" the radio to heat its case to temp's that we didn't want to touch!)
Great video. Was tempted to replace my AGM battery with Lithium but now I need to ensure my inverter and my charge controller can stop charging once the battery is full, meaning i will need to further invest in a shunt.
I am leaning more and more towards Lithing batteries. I just wish they were not so expensive, but I did see your prior video re the comparison of AGM and Lithium over 10 years cost and amperage. The lithium battery curve is kinda similar to Ni-Cad batteries where they both give full power until nearly the end of the power source then drop radically to 0. This man Heiner is fantastic he really knows his information.
Excellent coverage of the Lithium batteries Andrew and Hiener - thanks. For my camper build I'm setting it up for 24V lithium to reduce the cable diameters or voltage drop in the cabling compared to 12V. Many fridges, inverters etc. will operate at 24V and for the small capacity 12V items, I'm using a buck converter. My compressor in the camper however will pose a problem, the thing is only 12V and the buck converter will not supply the 80A it can draw. If I get two 12V Lithiums and put them in series to get 24V, can I still draw from one of the two batteries for the compressor? I guess the question is will two of these batteries in series recharge correctly when one has been discharged more than the other? If not, will I need to provide separate charging for each battery while in series so they charge correctly?
Hey, if you plan to get to connect two Lithium battery in serial you should seek the ones which allows that. Usually those has separate connection/plug coming out of battery(BMS) and allows to connect two BMS's together so they know they work in series. Otherwise I highly discourage you of getting first product of the shelf and got them in series. Lithium batteries for car/RV/boat/whatever - generally advertised as 12V are not "just" the batteries/cells. Those are cells AND BMS. Having that electronics prevent user of getting into dangerous conditions but also may take a part in the way particular cells are being charged, therefore BMS of each of battery should know it is a part of a serie. Answering your second question - you should not draw more current from one than from another. This is exactly condition which in best case scenario will make you never happy of the setup due to poor performance in worst can case danger.
My last truck 'floated' a 12V battery supported from a 24V to 13.8V electronic 40A supply and that copied well with short duration loads. Is your 80Amp load for an air conditioner or tyre inflator compressor? If air con I think you are in trouble from any battery source when not driving.
@@dupadupa5879 Hey thanks dupadupa5879. The batteries I've been looking at are OK in series according to the manufacturer - I wrote to them and asked although there is no extra connection between them. With your good advice, however, what I will do is charge them independently each battery with its own solar charger and (isolated) car charger so they can remain in series while charging and discharging. For running the compressor, I'll get a Car Jump Starter as it only runs for a couple of minutes every day or so at most. Another option is to fit an air tank for it.
@@philhealey449 Thanks Phil, I couldn't afford to buy enough batteries to run an A/C :) Its for a air compressor, used for pneumatics for raising the roof. I might be able to get away with a 40A converter as you point out. I'm thinking now of just putting in an air tank I can use the compressor in the car to compress air to 100PSI which will give me 3 - 4 lifts before I have to replenish it.
@@MiniLuv-1984 Other hard learned lesson: don't tap 12V off one of the batteries on the 24V side as that drags down the Voltage of one battery and the second then gets overcharged to an early death!
He's talking about batteries comprised of lots of pouch cells. There's no good way to secure them so they are vulnerable to vibration. Obviously 18650 or 2170's can be soldered into very secure arrangements, but you won't find many of these 12v component batteries made of cylinder cells, at least not right now...
Here in Germany i prefer AGM because of the minus temperatures. The LiFePo`s don`t like temps below zero. My camper is always outside. Winter and Summer. If you have no below zero temps buy LiFePo.
Operating range is discharge, not charging. Manufacturers play a lot of word games to sell products. I have seen several dozen articles and videos all saying don’t charge any type of lithium battery below about +2degC or the battery will be wrecked. That is why Tesla use fluid heating on their battery packs to warm the batteries before they start charging, and even Nissan, with their notoriously poor thermal management, have heating pads in the battery pack to warm the battery before it’ll take a charge in freezing conditions.
So by the information you just have explained, if I want to use a lithium battery as my main power, then I should mount it some place else, other than the engine compartment. So that it could stay as cool as possible, away from any heat source. Or else it I do use it in the engine compartment, then I should install a cool ventilation system for the battery.
Hi Andrew, how are you measuring the amount of charge left? (When you are out and about) as the rate of discharge is not as linear as a AGM and just reading the voltage isn't a reliable way of telling how full / or not the battery is.
Something to remember here is the information from Suppliers IS NOT ALWAYS CORRECT! I work in a battery shop & there is a very well known brand of lithium Motorcycle battery sold all over the world that advertise they are Prismatic cells. Every single one I have cracked open have lithium polymer cells with no protective casing! I dont sell these by the way.
I was talking to a company who specialises in mobile vehicle energy solutions and they sell AGM, Lithium and all manner of products from top manufacturers. They told me one of the downsides to Lithium was that many can not give as much current as a quality AGM and that as I have a 3000w Cotek inverter (identical to Redarc model) I would have to be careful as the Lithium battery could shut itself down if I tried to use too much power. That's pretty much the opposite to what your friend said in this video has has me wondering now.
Heiner said what you are saying. You may be confusing amps with amps/hr. An AGM can deliver higher amps (current), but its amps/hr (current over time) is considerably lower due to voltage drop.
I was looking at switching to a lithium ion battery for my dualsports motorcycle until I read some reviews. They don't like cold temperatures, and can't be charged in the very cold temperatures. I live in Canada.
I'm confused as I'm new to this and want to install lithium in my camper. Some lithium battery suppliers state you cannot run two or more lithium batteries in parallel as they each have their own battery management system and that's it's better to have 1x200AH rather than 2x100AH batteries.
Sure, it's better to have one. BUT. Are you running any equipment, such as an inverter, who's current draw exceeds the battery's maximum output? Some Lithiums can be put in parallel, and others cannot.
Alan Hibburt Some campers are going 6volt cells, so 2 AGM 6volt cells amp hours varies but one guy i know put 2 6volt AGM 250amp so total of 500 amp hours in his, now he said he has more power than he can use, but doesn't have the issues of swapping from AGM to lithium as the cost of swapping out chargers & other battery management systems was over 2k.
I’m currently running two fridges off two 100ah AGM batteries. 200ah AGM’s at 50% is 100Ah. So technically I can run my two fridges off one 100ah lithium as both systems give me 100ah. If I upgrade my charger from a redarc bcdc1225D to a 1240D this will increase the charge rate enabling the battery to be charged quicker making lithium the optimal system. Ampton states the optimal batter charge current rate is 20 to 50amps. Is this right?
there must be something wrong with the numbers at around 11:00. a 120 ah AGM battery is definitely not half the price of a 100ah LiFePo4, it's way less. I got 240 ah AGMs for less then half the price of a 100ah LiFePo4, so they both have pretty much the same power output, but yes the package is way bigger and havier.
Amptron is based in Perth and a failed battery has to be returned to them "by them and their shipping". It may then take three months for replacement parts to be found. Great for camping? The warranty also says "not transferable"? I thought that is eliminated by ACCC. Won't bother you cause you get given them and say such nice things about them. Don't forget to mention that to whoever buys your truck. Same thing with the lead crystal batteries?
When use Lithium for starting you use supercaps. Battery charge supercaps, and these start the car. Also high or low temperature doesn’t affect with the supercaps the battery.
Interesting. So heavy gauge cables connect a remote lithium battery to the array of caps? Are these military grade high-heat resistant cans? Tech specs? Gotta be pricey
Steve P Starter Packs are this construction and www.a123systems.com/automotive/products/systems/12v-starter-battery/ have a new kind of starter batterys. Cost I really don’t know.
Very well done. I had my lithium’s shut down on me last year and wouldn’t take charge. Did the same thing as described with another battery and woke up the charger.
Great questions and a great report. Keep up the good work
082220/1628pst. That was the most intelligent discussion, educational even. The presentation was not scripted, the two people exchanged views and comments that came out quite naturally, which is very commendable. The gentleman in yellow Jacket explained well to the other gentleman, who was quite inquisitive to understand the intricacies of flooded Pb cell batteries and the LiFePo4 batteries, or the comparison between the two. I have yet to come across such intelligent program in YT in my life. No comments on “ others!” You know what I mean !
Thank you, both of you. My respects and 73s...
This was a really helpful video. especially the last part about when you run a AGM or SLA off an inverter, compared to a Lithium battery.
We just upgraded from AGM's to Lithiums by building our own battery bank on our sailboat (we liveaboard) using 180 amp hour, 3.6-volt CALB cells, and a DALY BMS, wiring the cells in a 4s2p orientation. So stoked on the upgrade! We charge our lithiums in 2 different ways. We send the power from our 120 amp Balmar alternator on our engine to our 100 amp-hour sealed lead-acid starter battery. From there a Renogy 60 amp DC-DC charger takes the load from the alternator and puts it in a lithium profile and in turn charges the lithium batteries. It was a fun build!
I'm afraid I have to disagree with the prismatic being better. Especially in an off road scenario. Cylindrical cells are wound tightly and encased in a metal casing, This minimizes electrode material from breaking up from mechanical vibrations, thermal cycling from charging and mechanical expansion. The complete opposite to prismatic construction ! Remember those Optima glass matt super tough off road starter batteries from the 90s? No coincidence each cell was constructed in a cylindrical manner.
Very unclear definition as there are several DIFFERENT Lithium battery technologies. Main known ones are LiPo and LiFePo. The former is used in phones, Electric cars etc as it has higher energy density. But also the known ,explosive fire, variety. It use allows smallest size for given energy capacity. The storage battery presented is LiFePo variety, where the far more stable, less fire prone technology is better, at small loss of energy capacity for given volume is of no concern. But for clarity this presentation should not refer to just 'Lithium' battery but state the technology specifics. Even the optimal charging is affected by Lithium technolgy used.
I’ve a lithium and matched with a redarc BCDC the advantages are amazing . Just the weight and capacity are enough on why I really like my set up. Steve 🇦🇺
You asked all the right questions, and Heiner answered very well. The first thing he answered well, was that the Lithium battery case is just a "housing" of the bits inside, so that case and how it looks is the thing that actually confuses everything...because if the look the same, then it should be the same, and that is where the issue starts. Lithiums are fantastic BUT you have to match and design it to work how you want, and unless you are technical at heart, you will struggle. You just started to touch on connecting multiple batteries at the end of the clip, and that is really when it gets complicated...if you need 24V or >200AH...then you really need to match and understand....whereas AGM's you can really still connect them in parallel and/or serial as you see fit, and when you need to...LifePo4 need planning. Great Video.
O man I have been watching so many videos on lithium batteries but this has put it in a way I could understand. Thanks so much. Brilliant.
FYI: Pb Crystal batterie are still available in OZ...
As someone that's trying to get a rig put together, and looking at the differences between these two batteries I really appreciate all this information, especially about how bad of an idea it is to put a lithium battery under the hood. Tons of great information here, thank you! I'll have to check out more of your video's. :D
Awesome. I learned a lot.
I would live to see some info on putting Lithium batteries in a solar setup.
I just bought an Ultra lead carbon battery, which so far seems amazing in terms of charging speed from Solar and can go to deeper discharge than AGM. (same price as AGM) Biggest issue for me with battery systems is the ridiculous prices for the DC to DC chargers like red arc.
Mark Jennings
You are correct in the price for the Battery management systems as lithium set up is expensive (chargers or bms), i have a back up power system in the house and was advised not to go lithium because of the risk of thermal runaway inside a house. AGM's have there down side but until lithium batteries is improved a bit more i will stick with the old tried and tested AGM batteries.
Prismatic.... New word of the day.
there are three standard formats for Li-ion batteries: cylindrical, prismatic and pouch.
Prismatic. Sounds like religious nomenclature when spoken softly.
Great video and really helpful. The comment about Prismatic cells confused me as it conflicted with some other research I have done. What I have identified is that some manufacturers provide protection both in terms of physical (explosion proof jacket) and electrical (internal fuses) at a cell level. Prismatic cells are bigger and therefore both more dangerous in the case of explosion and cylinder cells. Cylindrical cells because there are more of them, have more redundancy at a cell level so a problem with a single is less likely to be as serious. So it may be more true to say that the quality of the cells used is more important, and a reflection of cost, than whether they are prismatic or cylinder.
Good informative video on lithium battery purchase breakdown. Thank you both for discussing this topic for us uninitiated campers !
So for engine compartment stored batteries. Extreme heat with lithiums is a concern in the desert temps of 100°f plus. Under hood temps can reach 200°f plus. The interior/cab alone here in south west Arizona can reach 122°f.
I'd like to add, where they rate the cycle life (2000cycles at 70% DoD for eg). It's my understanding it's a rating until the original capacity has reduced to 80% (100ah battery now holds 80ah). So essentially the life of the battery could go for many thousands more cycles with slowly diminishing capacity.
@@Y.D.M.P then add another 1000 cycles at 50% DoD while the battery has 80% of its original capacity and you've got yourself ? maybe 60% of its original 100ah when you bought it
so if you just ran a 50L fridge thats 8+ years and youd still have a 60ah battery that could last another 1000 cycles at 50% DoD.......... ~i need a lithium battery~
2000 cycles at 70% DOD isn’t very good for a lithium. Sounds like a cheap imported Chinese battery
@@VEOPengineering actually it's pretty good for 18650 lithium ion cells. Alot of the spec sheets say 500-1000 cycles. Those Winston lifepo4 cells seem to be rated at 5000 cycles 80% DoD. That's what I've made my packs with and can't fault them. No noticeable capacity loss after 6 years.
I’d never buy a battery based off 18650 cells. They don’t last and were never designed for this kind of application or for high discharge rates. My lithium can discharge at 250a constant (I have 2 under bonnet ) and rated for -20 to +80c temps and 3year full replacement warranty applies. This means I have 500a available for my winch, and that’s with the car turned off. My 200amp alternator can charge direct at 200amp to the battery no external bms so from flat to full is 1 hr. At idle I gain more charge in 30mins than solar could provide all day and I can run a 3000w invertor as well. Those cheap batteries can run a fridge and charge up some phones, camera batteries but lack the real performance. Cut them open and the bms is very basic and count the cells and they don’t match the claimed capacity
@@VEOPengineering We are talking about 2 different lithium battery chemistries here. I too would not buy a battery based off 18650 laptop cells. I however don't let them go to waste and build "Powerwalls" with them for other projects. My house runs off big lifepo4 cells. And I keep the charge between 30-90% at the extremes.
That's a very high C rate to charge your batteries in 1hr. Impressive none the less. Lead acid is archaic in comparison and reminds me of a sieve that leaks alot of the energy put into them.
Yep those inbuilt BMS are the limiting factors for lithium discharge rates. It makes people think they don't compare to AGM. But it's the complete opposite. Also lifepo4 is a safe battery chemistry. A Shame this wasn't explained properly in the video.
I learned a lot from this. Thank you. I could put a lithium starter under my seat in my Defender but then I heard 1. The price and 2. The trickle charge issue. So I'll stick with AGM for my starter battery.
I would not see the value in going lithium for a starter battery. Lead acid performs very well in this usage.
Should i/should i not wire a winch to my secondary lithium battery and use winch while running engine, or always wire winch to lead acid starter battery and use when engine running?
Winch to the starter battery. The lithium can't supply the required amps.
Excellent discussion. However, here in the US we have a wide range of weather. During the year I can travel areas where the temperature can vary between -10 (-23C) to 115 (46C). At his time lithium batteries have complications when dealing with weather extremes that my 8D AGM’s don’t have. I’m excited about lithium battery potential, but right now they don’t answer all my needs like an AGM does.
so can it be a combo hybrid batery liuthiu + agm sort of ?
Really nice video Andrew. Heiner seems to really know his stuff.
Amazing video Andrew! Easy to understand and great information for all of us. I've been dying to get hold of a Lithium Battery in Malaysia but can't find one. Keep up the great work you are doing for the 4x4/overlanding community!!
Great video Andrew. Heiner (sorry if I misspelt his name) is fantastic at giving clear explanations of the technology and the function of the batteries. You both did a great job. Really enjoyed it and feel much more confident about the value and limitations of lithium batteries. Thanks lads.
Interesting to see that AGMs (and FLAs) still "win" for certain applications such as under the hood of a car. Also, the guy wrongly said that a high current draw from an AGM battery lessens the capacity. That is not true. It doesn't significantly lessen the capacity of the battery, it just lessens the effective capacity of the battery at that higher amperage draw. For example, if a 100Ah rated AGM battery has 50Ah of usable energy (without damage to the battery) rated at the 20 hour drain rate, that means you can draw 2.5A for 20 hours to get 50Ah out of the battery (assuming a healthy fully charged battery). However if you instead put a 25A load on that same fully charged battery, then you wont get 2 hours @ 25A. You might only get 1.5 hours, but that doesn't mean the battery dropped to only 37.5 Ah usable energy. You can still extract the "missing" 12.5 Ah, just at a slower rate (such as the 2.5A rate). I suggest that draining the batteries either way (either 2.5A for 20 hours) or 25A for 1.5 hours, then 2.5A for 5 hours (both are 50Ah of drain), will leave the battery is a similar state of charge (around 50%). If you don't believe me, try it. I usually do capacity tests on batteries that way. I use a high drain rate until my inverter beeps (usually at 10.5V under load), then I lighten the load and keep going.
Great video Andrew and Heiner, thank you.👍
I learned all of this when I quit smoking and started vaping , hahaha. Li-on batteries are great. Seems like there could be a little capacitor that would at least allow the charger to "see" the battery when its flat though. It will get normal really soon. AGM batteries are gonna be antiques .....maybe in the morning
if you want to start your car with it, there are AGM batteries on the market eg.: Enersys EP, XE; Odyssey extreme, Powersafe SBS, Interstate MTZ,... example: Enersys XE16 12V 16Ah Crankingamps: >600A
or Odyssey PC2250 12V 125Ah Crankingamps: 2250A
Thanks Andrew, stay safe and healthy!
Great video, Andrew. I have just got into lithium power, all the factors of this new technology add up and significantly outweigh the larger initial outlay in dollar terms. I won't even mention the weight savings
Most lithium ion batteries are made in China, then a company puts its name on it. The weak point of these can be the bms . When buying a battery, ask questions about the bms , if they can’t show you one or give you the proper specs in writing go elsewhere. A great source of information on this subject is Will Prowse’s RUclips channel.
as a RC enthusiast, the LiFePO4 batteries are the future if you want reliability, long term storage and cold weather operation. If you want larger capacity, straight lithium cells like a 18650. If you need high draw, fast discharge and recharge, LIPO. and I define high draw as 30-40C, as in draining 100ah in 5 - 10 minutes. Think drones or arc welding.
The cut off is in alot of the chargers, if the charger knows it is a lithium battery that has fallen under a certain voltage, it will not charge it because the insides of the battery "May" catch on fire due to insides of the battery being damage. If you trick the charger to think it is not a lithium cell and charge it above a certain voltage, you can continue to recharge the lithium cell battery as a lithium cell. This worked for me.
Andrew. I am looking to replace my three 110amp 7 year old Full River AGM deep cycle batteries .
The batteries are housed in a rack under the tray of my Iveco 4x4.
I became keen on the Enerdrive e power B tec lithium batteries.
Reading the fine print the Enerdrive are not suitable for fitment in exposed weather eg under the tray for a 4x4 truck or under the chasis of a caravan.Is that the norm for lithium in general? Also some suppliers are saying lithium should not be connected in series. Say if I want to add an additional battery later.
LiFePO4 is a rollercoaster in my present build decision making. Yes there is deep discharge and high cycle life ability, very high (95%) Watt-hour efficiency and superb energy density per kg . However, very few products seem to have a convincing CCA rating for emergency engine starting, most prohibit in-series use to make 24V without more complex BMS, charging and general use below 0 Deg C seems restricted to 5% Amps of Ah size and/or need for heating mats. My latest discovery switching me off again is risk of alternator burnout due to very high current even when charging at low rpm when alternator cooling fan performance is low, demanding alternator temperature controlled charge regulation. I'm rapidly concluding some low capacity CCA rated AGMs and a small homemade Honda GX35 24V APU charger generator is the way ahead to back up plenty of PV and possibly a yacht type wind charger . LiFePO looks great for domestic offgrid however.
I know others have stated this already but if anyone has questions about LiFe (lithium) batteries, battery management, whats good and whats garbage...go over to DIY Solar, Will Prowse's channel and watch some of his beginner videos. You'll learn a ton and its all honest info. All this electrical stuff seems complicated but once its explained correctly its not too bad.
The takeaway for me has been "Go with lithium" like a Battle Born or other quality make.
Extremely informative, thank you!
I bought 2 of those amptron batteries last year, havent installed them yet, just charged them and put them in the shed. Pulled them out last week and one was completely dead and would not wake up via jumpstart or via a proper power supply at a certain voltage. Its currently going back for investigation.
I learned a few things with this one, recently I also chose lithium. However, my biggest concern while choosing was not mentioned in this video: cold weather charging. Most lithium batteries bms will shut down bellow 0º to avoid damaging the cells. That's the only thing I would have liked to see mentioned in here. (Not a concern in Australia or South Africa I assume). Thanks for the great videos.
Mário Félix well it gets colder than 0 in Australia mate
Love your work Andrew! Keep it up! I had so many questions about Lithium batteries and this is very insightful and answer almost all my questions, except 1. Almost all battery chargers and gauges measure the voltage of the battery to determine its state of charge. But since the Lithium battery has a virtually constant voltage (until shutoff), how do you measure/determine its state of charge?
Great info Andrew! Great idea to go to the shop and compare....
I have one big question left after this brilliant and very educational video: how or more when you gonna charge these batteries, when they don't like to be charged all the time by just a little. I mean, practically, you charge them, start your trip, use them for let's say 1 day and they are down to 70%. Do you then just switch off the charger and wait until it's down to 10% and only then switch the charger back on? But then you plan to just stay in one place for another 2 days but then your battery is flat?! How this works in real life?
I had a lead crystal battery have a cell or 2 drop late last year and it was replaced under warranty. I note this only to note that they clearly could supply the replacement in Australia.
read some reviews, they don't like cold temperatures, and charging can be a issue unless you spend Big dollars getting the correct chargers unless you want them to fail/die after a period. Also i have some people telling me of thermal runaway inside there campers.
That was great never could get my head around all that in the past but know light bulb has gone on. Thank you 👍👍
very good information
about lithium batteries for today
they are the best but very expensive
and the bms circuit prevent thermal runaway and causing the battery to explode from short circuit condition .
the only thing to worry about
lithium battery is physical puncture.
they say it lasts 2000 cycles
but in realty it reach alot lower than 2000 .
using a smart power charger that record the charging and discharging
curve (1st cycle recordings )using a constant load and this information can be compared to curves example after reaching 600 cycles
if the curves are 20% in difference expect the battery is fading away and can't last longer when it was brand new .
Which battery should be used for winching?
NOT LITHIUM! An AGM can deliver higher amps (current), but its amps/hr (current over time) is considerably lower due to voltage drop. Winches pull huge current, so not suited to winching. By far best for winching are flooded lead-acid starter batteries.
4xoverland lithium can be used for winching and starting but you need the right battery. Basic lithium’s are for accessories only and generally use lower quality cells. I’m happy to show you some (not trying to sell you anything, just to update your information). I can supply 250a constant current which is a lot higher than lead acid or agm.
Companies in the USA are selling these now with 11 year warranties. But I live in a hot climate, so how long are these going to last in the Oz heat?
What happened to the lead crystal batterys that were supposed to be better than lithium?
Did you not watch the video?
@@4xoverland He is talking about another technology that is not released yet. Not normal lead acid like are talked about here
@ Reuben and Carson, it was mentioned in the video. Discontinued, possibly due to intellectual property/patent issues.
@@ReubenHorner Thanks I saw it at the end of the video.
Genuinely USEFUL information . I am doing a Build currently after being off the " Scene " for a LONG time .
I know how to build a Killer Off-roader , but this kind of tech I am way out of Date on .
I've got a question for Heiner. He lays out an argument for not using Lithiums as starting batteries. I'm still weighing up whether to do it or not and have a query. With the Lithiums that are built with management systems so they can be charged by the car's alternator, would the 'cutting off' of the battery by their inbuilt battery management system once it's reached maximum charge damage the alternator? I've always been told that disconnecting the battery while the car is running or running a car without a battery harms the alternator and will eventually destroy it. Does Heiner have any insights into that? Thanks.
The most important question and answer (for me!) was the very last one; "why 2x 100ah batteries v. 1x 200ah battery." To add to the electrical engineering answer Heiner gave, unlike AGM/Flooded batteries, you can easily add more batteries to the system later. That means you can start with 1x 100ah battery + DC/DC charger+charger/inverter+MPPT solar controller for your system and then after your cardiologist bills are paid due to the sticker shock, you can buy another 100ah lithium and add it into the system ;-)
Lithium Iron Phosphate cells (prismatic) batteries (like this one) are not as energy dense as some lithium chemistries but are essentially inert, so they are suited to situations where the size is less important, for example larger vehicles.
I just ordered 2 x Amptron 100ah batteries thanks to you! 👍👍
Great video.
Can you charge a lithium battery with a Epever mppt charge controller.
I believe it has a special setting??
I've spent years touring remote parts of Australia & spent a fortune on building my truck over time.. take it from me after testing multiple battery set ups, lithium IS the way to go & far superior to AGM batteries for your accessories/gadgets etc.. costly yes but not really considering the overall benefits.
Very entertaining and informative; thanks for making our lockdown a bit easier sir.
Can you please do a video about the different between lithium and lead crystal battery please
Are the plug and play or do you have to change the alternator system?
One cannot effectively charge a LifePO4 battery directly from an alternator. The voltages don't match. Beware of what the battery makers say to get you to buy their batteries.
DIY Solar Power with Will Prowse. This guys channel is awesome
Definitely, he explains things so much better, and is better to watch what he does with them.
This guy sounded like an apprentice compared to Will.
Richie P Will is a genius on Lithium batteries and BMS but not specialized on electric systems used in mining, heavy duty used 4x4 and off-road camper vans. Heiner is the expert on that for Australien conditions. That the point in this vid. Cheers
Will is good at reading.
Awesome. Answered many of my questions.
After having Lithium for deep cycle battery for nearly 6months there is no going back to Agm in my main 4wd.
1. Lighter weight for same physical size.
2. As said about 100amp battery. Agm you get 50amp usage and maybe 1000cycles Li you get 80amp and 2000cycles.
3. The higher voltage of Li means less amps used
4. The quickness of recharging Lithum is main reason never going back to AGM in 4wd. Can charge at 1/4 of battery rating up to 95% capacity. So 100amp battery can take 25amps until 95% then goes to float charge. In 3 engine hours full battery with the right dcdc charger or if using solar to charge when sunlight is strong the battery usually accept all of the amps being produce and not shedding it as in agm charging cycle.
If cycle between 30 and 70% charge it is in theory able to cycle 5000 times
And that is worth a $1,000 Battery vs a $200 battery ? Are your pockets lined with GOLD ?
Hi Andrew, I have a 120ah Lead crystal battery have done for a few years, after watching the video and the comment of possibly not being able to purchase Lead crystal batteries in Australia anymore, I had a look and there appears that you can still purchase them.
Trailer camper Australia was one of the sellers.
Was about to pull the trigger on a iTechWorld 120x lithium battery that can easily go under the bonnet (apparently), I’m thinking twice now. I’m soo bloody confused! 😩
The iTechworld will say they can go under the bonnet because they want to sell you a battery. They are misleading the public in a lot of their publicity. Fact is, all LifePO4 based batteries can go under the bonnet and will work. BUT . . . every one will have a decreased lifespan if you do. Words don't change the physics. Is it worth investing in Lithium if you are going to decrease its working life by heating it up - or cooling it to freezing point? Both extremes affect its life span.
@@4xoverland thanks Andrew I appreciate your advice. I think I’m now going to look into slimline lithium battery to go into my vehicle & not under the bonnet.
better :-)
ok, so i'm researching Lithium for off grid power for a home. what I feel makes a big difference is with AGM you should not discharge more than 30% - 50% often before recharging to conserve life. lithium you can cycle deeper to 80% + without shortening the life. now you can reduce your battery capacity by 1/2 for storage reasons. ie, I use 7Kw/day and would like to have 3 days storage before charging, hence with agm, I need a 70KW bank, with lithium, I can use a 35Kw bank. agm charge slowly, and at a rate of no more than 10% capacity, lithium is 30%. so far, lithium is winning for off grid for me.
Discharging & recharging any battery will shorten its life. A 35 KW Li-Ion a battery bank will cost approx $30,000 every 10 years vs a 70 KW Lead-Acid battery bank will cost approx $4,500 every 5 years. Therefore, Li-Ion is no bargain. Are your pockets lined with GOLD ?
I think you can run a Lithium Batterie direct conected via BMS (Batterie Management System) to the alternator. As well as via solar charger and BMS. The BMS ( at least mine) will bring down the charging current to the amount the batterie wants. What do you think?
Thank you for the video. Where is the optimal place to store the lithium battery if not in the engine bay? Inside a locked car during summer the temp can also be over 40 etc?
True. But not 80-100° as can happen in the engine bay.
It all comes down to the BMS most lithium batteries that are used in RC cars can easily deliver several hundred amps despite being only a few AH in capacity, granted they are usually a slightly different chemistry but I wouldn't be suprised if the cells inside that battery could deliver 500amps easily. A top notch BMS could easily be used as a replacement for a starter battery if you mounted somewhere it wouldn't get too hot whether that's worth the price or not is another thing entirely though.
Newish AC chargers, such as the Noco genius family, now have the "force mode" where you can push current through when the battery has very low voltage/undetectable, which would happen in a lithium iron phosphate when the BMS goes into low voltage protection and the voltage sense at the terminals becomes ineffective. I bet future Dc-Dc chargers will also begin including this mode as an option if they haven't already.
I’ve just installed a 1500w inverter to make coffees on the road, I’ve got 1x 100amp agm and 1x 75amp agm with my car running and a 40amp dcdc charger charging the 2 batteries the voltage drops to 11.6v from 14.4v . I’ll be interested to see how many cycles I get .
The new technology is Lithium Titenate. They are fire proof and damage proof. They are 20,000 cycles ie life- time batteries . Also you can charge them in ten minutes. You can discharge them at massive amperages also. These will function from -59C to +65C- LTO - AWESOME!
Great info! Love the free flowing nature of the video.
thank you for other great detail video on new type battley system as look put together 24v down 12v system for over land tour build in my truck
Any Radio Ham, who uses an ICOM IC-7000 transceiver, may like to know, that this radio can shut-down if the input voltage is less than ~12V DC.
There are devices, that can boost voltage to slightly above 12V, to enable the radio to function, even if the input (to the boosting device) drops below 12V, but, this adds ~$100 to the total system cost... due to an ICOM design glitch, IMO.
Worse (at least in AU): The case of an IC-7000 tends to run warm to hot, even in Receive-mode. I once sold an IC-7000, due to this "overheating" issue, when I was working in the Outback, in warmer seasons. Some warm days would "help" the radio to heat its case to temp's that we didn't want to touch!)
Great video. Was tempted to replace my AGM battery with Lithium but now I need to ensure my inverter and my charge controller can stop charging once the battery is full, meaning i will need to further invest in a shunt.
most smart charge controllers know when to shut off and that is why you use a proper charge controller rather than a dumb isolator switch.
I am leaning more and more towards Lithing batteries. I just wish they were not so expensive, but I did see your prior video re the comparison of AGM and Lithium over 10 years cost and amperage. The lithium battery curve is kinda similar to Ni-Cad batteries where they both give full power until nearly the end of the power source then drop radically to 0. This man Heiner is fantastic he really knows his information.
It really comes down to how many amps your drawing each day to see which is best value for money
Excellent coverage of the Lithium batteries Andrew and Hiener - thanks. For my camper build I'm setting it up for 24V lithium to reduce the cable diameters or voltage drop in the cabling compared to 12V. Many fridges, inverters etc. will operate at 24V and for the small capacity 12V items, I'm using a buck converter. My compressor in the camper however will pose a problem, the thing is only 12V and the buck converter will not supply the 80A it can draw. If I get two 12V Lithiums and put them in series to get 24V, can I still draw from one of the two batteries for the compressor? I guess the question is will two of these batteries in series recharge correctly when one has been discharged more than the other? If not, will I need to provide separate charging for each battery while in series so they charge correctly?
Hey, if you plan to get to connect two Lithium battery in serial you should seek the ones which allows that. Usually those has separate connection/plug coming out of battery(BMS) and allows to connect two BMS's together so they know they work in series. Otherwise I highly discourage you of getting first product of the shelf and got them in series. Lithium batteries for car/RV/boat/whatever - generally advertised as 12V are not "just" the batteries/cells. Those are cells AND BMS. Having that electronics prevent user of getting into dangerous conditions but also may take a part in the way particular cells are being charged, therefore BMS of each of battery should know it is a part of a serie.
Answering your second question - you should not draw more current from one than from another. This is exactly condition which in best case scenario will make you never happy of the setup due to poor performance in worst can case danger.
My last truck 'floated' a 12V battery supported from a 24V to 13.8V electronic 40A supply and that copied well with short duration loads. Is your 80Amp load for an air conditioner or tyre inflator compressor? If air con I think you are in trouble from any battery source when not driving.
@@dupadupa5879 Hey thanks dupadupa5879. The batteries I've been looking at are OK in series according to the manufacturer - I wrote to them and asked although there is no extra connection between them. With your good advice, however, what I will do is charge them independently each battery with its own solar charger and (isolated) car charger so they can remain in series while charging and discharging. For running the compressor, I'll get a Car Jump Starter as it only runs for a couple of minutes every day or so at most. Another option is to fit an air tank for it.
@@philhealey449 Thanks Phil, I couldn't afford to buy enough batteries to run an A/C :) Its for a air compressor, used for pneumatics for raising the roof. I might be able to get away with a 40A converter as you point out. I'm thinking now of just putting in an air tank I can use the compressor in the car to compress air to 100PSI which will give me 3 - 4 lifts before I have to replenish it.
@@MiniLuv-1984 Other hard learned lesson: don't tap 12V off one of the batteries on the 24V side as that drags down the Voltage of one battery and the second then gets overcharged to an early death!
Prismatic vs 18650s, Tesla battery packs are comprised of hundreds of small 18650 cells without seemingly issues with durability.
He's talking about batteries comprised of lots of pouch cells. There's no good way to secure them so they are vulnerable to vibration. Obviously 18650 or 2170's can be soldered into very secure arrangements, but you won't find many of these 12v component batteries made of cylinder cells, at least not right now...
Here in Germany i prefer AGM because of the minus temperatures. The LiFePo`s don`t like temps below zero. My camper is always outside. Winter and Summer. If you have no below zero temps buy LiFePo.
Michael Schnoedewind hows -20 to +80+ temp range? Rated for underbonnet use, starting, winching. All with lithium and soon to be available in Europe
@@VEOPengineering Working at -20 and charging at -20 is a difference. Normally all LiFePo´s are not for charging below zero.
Michael Schnoedewind no issues charging at -20c. That is the operating range
@@VEOPengineering Okay. Very nice then. ;-)
Operating range is discharge, not charging. Manufacturers play a lot of word games to sell products. I have seen several dozen articles and videos all saying don’t charge any type of lithium battery below about +2degC or the battery will be wrecked. That is why Tesla use fluid heating on their battery packs to warm the batteries before they start charging, and even Nissan, with their notoriously poor thermal management, have heating pads in the battery pack to warm the battery before it’ll take a charge in freezing conditions.
So by the information you just have explained, if I want to use a lithium battery as my main power, then I should mount it some place else, other than the engine compartment. So that it could stay as cool as possible, away from any heat source. Or else it I do use it in the engine compartment, then I should install a cool ventilation system for the battery.
Hi Andrew, how are you measuring the amount of charge left? (When you are out and about) as the rate of discharge is not as linear as a AGM and just reading the voltage isn't a reliable way of telling how full / or not the battery is.
@@leedavis2773 ok thanks. Will be interesting to see his new system all wired up.
Fantastic video. Answered a lot of questions. Very well presented. Great stuff!!
Something to remember here is the information from Suppliers IS NOT ALWAYS CORRECT! I work in a battery shop & there is a very well known brand of lithium Motorcycle battery sold all over the world that advertise they are Prismatic cells. Every single one I have cracked open have lithium polymer cells with no protective casing! I dont sell these by the way.
Thank you both for the information. I am getting a much better understanding of lithium technology.
Lovely, very good help. And learned a whole lot. Thank you. And more power.
I was talking to a company who specialises in mobile vehicle energy solutions and they sell AGM, Lithium and all manner of products from top manufacturers. They told me one of the downsides to Lithium was that many can not give as much current as a quality AGM and that as I have a 3000w Cotek inverter (identical to Redarc model) I would have to be careful as the Lithium battery could shut itself down if I tried to use too much power. That's pretty much the opposite to what your friend said in this video has has me wondering now.
Heiner said what you are saying. You may be confusing amps with amps/hr. An AGM can deliver higher amps (current), but its amps/hr (current over time) is considerably lower due to voltage drop.
You'd need at least 3 x 100A max sustained output Lithium batteries in parallel to be able to run your 3kw inverter @ full output.
@@eaglen00b I have a 2K inverter. And I've already tested it. Runs without a problem on the 2 100ah lithiums.
I was looking at switching to a lithium ion battery for my dualsports motorcycle until I read some reviews. They don't like cold temperatures, and can't be charged in the very cold temperatures. I live in Canada.
Then just put a battery heat blanket for them, that is what we do. I would never go back to twice the weight with half the use.
They would work fine in as cold of temperature as I would ride my motorcycle. However the trickle continuous charging is probably a concern.
I'm confused as I'm new to this and want to install lithium in my camper. Some lithium battery suppliers state you cannot run two or more lithium batteries in parallel as they each have their own battery management system and that's it's better to have 1x200AH rather than 2x100AH batteries.
Sure, it's better to have one. BUT. Are you running any equipment, such as an inverter, who's current draw exceeds the battery's maximum output? Some Lithiums can be put in parallel, and others cannot.
@@4xoverland Yes, I plan to have an inverter. Thanks for your prompt reply
Alan Hibburt
Some campers are going 6volt cells, so 2 AGM 6volt cells amp hours varies but one guy i know put 2 6volt AGM 250amp so total of 500 amp hours in his, now he said he has more power than he can use, but doesn't have the issues of swapping from AGM to lithium as the cost of swapping out chargers & other battery management systems was over 2k.
I’m currently running two fridges off two 100ah AGM batteries. 200ah AGM’s at 50% is 100Ah. So technically I can run my two fridges off one 100ah lithium as both systems give me 100ah. If I upgrade my charger from a redarc bcdc1225D to a 1240D this will increase the charge rate enabling the battery to be charged quicker making lithium the optimal system. Ampton states the optimal batter charge current rate is 20 to 50amps. Is this right?
16850s all spot welded together are good enough for Tesla. Its actually a very efficient way to do it.
Is there an American version of the Amptron LifePO4 that is as small and compact?
there must be something wrong with the numbers at around 11:00. a 120 ah AGM battery is definitely not half the price of a 100ah LiFePo4, it's way less. I got 240 ah AGMs for less then half the price of a 100ah LiFePo4, so they both have pretty much the same power output, but yes the package is way bigger and havier.
So is solar a bad idea as it trickle charges the battery
Amptron is based in Perth and a failed battery has to be returned to them "by them and their shipping". It may then take three months for replacement parts to be found. Great for camping?
The warranty also says "not transferable"? I thought that is eliminated by ACCC. Won't bother you cause you get given them and say such nice things about them. Don't forget to mention that to whoever buys your truck. Same thing with the lead crystal batteries?
Recently found some starter LiFePO4 Battery is available around.
And I am also curious about Silver Cell batteries. Do you know anything about them?
So could I replace my truck battery under the hood with this battery and just have the alternator on my truck charge it?
No
When use Lithium for starting you use supercaps. Battery charge supercaps, and these start the car. Also high or low temperature doesn’t affect with the supercaps the battery.
Interesting. So heavy gauge cables connect a remote lithium battery to the array of caps? Are these military grade high-heat resistant cans? Tech specs? Gotta be pricey
Steve P Starter Packs are this construction and www.a123systems.com/automotive/products/systems/12v-starter-battery/ have a new kind of starter batterys. Cost I really don’t know.
A kit is the parts to build something with a plan. What your describing is equipment / gear.
How are you monitoring the state of charge?