DCS: F-16 Revisited! Is It Better?
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- Опубликовано: 27 авг 2024
- Former F-16 pilot flies the DCS: F-16. Have the updates improved it?
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The appearance of U.S. Department of Defense (DoD) visual information does not imply or constitute DoD endorsement.
Views presented are my own and do not represent the views of DoD or its Components.
Bet that 4090 is a huge jump in VR. Haven't tried VR myself yet but jeez the FPS in 2D alone is worth the insane price.
Drewskis a fan of Mover? Holy shit so based
(O_o)
Didn’t expect to see you here!
I have no idea what kind of unforseen challenges you might face while trying to produce content for your channel, but I found playing DCS to be way more fun in VR.
You need to PvP mover in DCS!
Would love to see you dogfight Mover!
10:31 "Nonstandard. Do not attempt in real life." Let me just fire up my personal F-16 and KC-135 real quick 😂😂
All I can say is that it always is a good day when you upload, especially any kind of aviation content.
Always nice to see how real fighter pilots do the stuff in DCS
The "Training Mission" starts with a straight 'n level flying MiG, if you want a maneuvering target it's best to set up a fight in the Mission Editor where you can set loadout, positioning and skill level of the adversary. Set to max skill they can be a challenge! Also Mover, good to see you back on the DCS Viper!
Agreed, this is a noob exercise to introduce beginners to the basic concepts of dogfighting.
Imo the ai will never be a challenge after some bfm experience, I'd love to see him hop in dcs dogfighters
I'm like a month in and I cannot for the life of me stay stable enough to refuel. So glad to hear that it's not that hard in real life, this give me hope.
Nice to hear the criticisms of the DCS F-16 flight model. I'm convinced that the stability is not up to scratch, the slight waffly feel and wandering nose make things like tanking and guns tracking more difficult and less intuitive than they should be. I'm also not convinced the energy retention shouldn't be better as well.
The oscillations during instant action were probably because the autopilot was on. Ai derping out is weird, I don’t usually see that.
Thanks for a follow up video on this module, I have noticed improvements as well, but I know it’s still a far cry from the insane performance this jet is capable of.
Hopefully we see improvements in the areas you mentioned, particularly bleed rate at higher density altitude and G onset. (Also AOA unloading, as AOA likes to stick around even when releasing the stick). Lastly, thanks for the warning to not attempt to go up and over the tanker in real life. I needed that reminder 😢
Don't worry, I didn't get into the airforce either mate, was also my dream :)
Great video, Mover. Nice to see you in DCS again.
Agree with your observations about the slop in the controls with a cam/spring base. For what its worth, I found the DCS Viper to feel much better after I switched to a force-sensing stick. RealSimulator has a great force-sensing solution (FSSB R3L) that is based on the real Viper HOTAS. It works great with other DCS modules too, even the helos.
Hope you get a chance to put more time into DCS!
Wow, I had no idea the FSSB existed. The last force feedback joystick base I was recommended was like $1k. Do you know if the FSSB R3L is compatible with space sims, too? Because I would seriously consider upgrading to Virpils if that's the case.
@@billywashere6965 the R3L is awesome; however, to avoid any confusion, it's a force-sensing base and not force feedback. Force-sensing here means it measures the pressure the user applies to the grip and then translates that into an appropriate digital displacement in the game. The stick doesn't move more than a few millimeters; it's the force that you apply that matters.
A force feedback stick is very different and gives the user mechanical perturbations when certain input is applied or certain events happen in the game.
I think force sensing is better.
@@Vortex31415 Good explanation. I've been using the R3L lightening for a few years now and it is indeed awesome once you dial in the parameters that work best for you within DCS. I really appreciate the ability to change the feel for different aircraft.
@@Vortex31415 That totally makes sense. Thanks for explaining that.
That explains why the R3L is still reasonably priced and the actual force feedback sticks are as expensive as they are.
Cheers.
Can confirm the FSSB is a good choice, and might come closer at least.
Seriously appreciate the "This is still a video game." So many act like it's reality.
Different types of fun
So glad you called out that this is NOT a US F-16 but based off FMS/Export data. ED refuses to just acknowledge this, as it counters their initial sales pitch. The continual compromises in the particulars of the systems and allowable weapons, counter what the USAF fleet carry. Cheers.
It's common knowledge on the ED forums that it is based largely on the Greek block 50 manual.
Please do a video on Falcon BMS, it would be really interesting to hear your opinion on it as it is seemingly supposed to be a much closer simulation of the flight model & systems
Not true when it comes to flight model. I gave BMS up because its only superior in avionics and sensors. It flies nothing like a real viper.
@@MetaliCanuck Whats the reasoning behind you saying it doesnt fly like the real f16?From what I've read from other f16 pilots its the closest we have.
@@MetaliCanuck idk I was in the TAF flew a bit of the viper and the energy management on the bms viper is much better I think the main problem is that dcs fms bleed energy so fast and they don’t gain it fast enough
@@MetaliCanuck The bms dev team used nasa data for the fm on the bms f16, there is also a 130 page pdf on how they modelled the bms f16 with extensive doghouse/acceleration charts for each f16 block, you don't even get 1 em chart for the viper in dcs-I think that tells you alot on how dcs and bms approach flight sims.
That sarcastic enthusiasm against the Mig and SU-27 followed by the aileron roll had me cracking up.
I have waited a long time for a video like this! Your personal insight is very valued for us playing the game (sim).
I will never, ever going to do this is in real life, so for me I would like the F-16 to be as close as possible to the real thing… still knowing its just a game.
But a huge thank you for doing this!
I've been saying it's bleeding too much energy compared to BMS. Mover should really try BMS now since it's support VR
For me, who will never sit and fly a real Viper, I'm happy that stuff like this exists. I have the stick/throttle that replaced the warthog and it comes with a variety of springs but I've never changed them. I'm super fond of the Block 50 Viper, one of my best buddies used to work on them as ground crew. Beauties.
Would be interesting to see you in the BMS Viper, bit of a different beast over there. Maybe check it out once the new graphical update gets released 2024.
Plus BMS models different blocks. Despite the older graphics which actually work just fine (yeah they are no where near DCS) he should check it out now that it supports VR. I'd be curious what he thinks given BMS is way more fleshed out. Also I know they did a ton of research on the FMs.
@@seancummings7788 I don't think it's necessary to directly compare the two, both have their strengths. But one thing the BMS Viper FM absolutely nails is the joy of flying. It's like mind controlling the jet, which I believe is the feeling Viper pilots are looking for.
Yes I would love to see that comparison. I find that the F-16 gets a lot wobblier in DCS under heavy loads at slow speeds.
@@Dwight511 there are dozens of us!
@@MikeSwanberg You mean like all Vipers get wobbly at high loads slow speeds? The only things BMS has on DCS is avionic suites and DTC, thats it. I gave it up for that reason.
It's not wrong to call DCS a video game, because it IS a video game. Definitely a detailed one, and it would be a lie to say that I haven't learned some things about military aviation since I started playing it, but it's still a video game.
I think it would be more fair and likely produce less triggering to call DCS what it really is, a consumer level study sim. It's not really a game unless you play on arcade settings. If you're playing DCS the way the vast majority of us are you are in sim mode and this requires learning the systems of the airframe you're intending to fly, at a minimum, and for the complete experience learning communications and procedures that replicate military aviation. This is well beyond the scope of what most gamers are willing to do and is clearly a barrier for the instant gratification crowd that gamers tend to be.
@@MichaelMoellerTRLInc a simulator is a game
@@MichaelMoellerTRLInc Indeed, I have been a gamer for a long time playing mostly RPGs and MMORPGs but ever since I started flying in DCS all my buddies are intimidated by it and refuse to join me
@@RW-zn8vy ya pretty certain that the USAF, USN USMC and US Army as well as major airlines, NASA , NASCAR , F1 and numerous other organizations would take exception to calling their simulators "games".
@@MichaelMoellerTRLInc it’s what they are, maybe try googling the definition of a simulator.
Excellent stuff! Love seeing you in a DCS fast pointy jet. I know it gets a lot of internet people worked up but the last Mover vs Gonky stuff was one of my favorite things, looking forward to the rematch!
Please do a comparison vs BMS. I guess you're the most competent person out there to make this happen. There's no other person I know (on yt) who could potentially make this. The problem with BMS is a obscure way to install and configure it but I bet there will be a LOT of people who will help you with that part. You may even contact me and I'd be glad to help you or point to someone who can help. Notable thing, BMS now supports VR. Butter smooth compared to DCS :E
Butter smooth cause it could run on a Playstation 2.
The new downloader and updater is much easier to use than the old method of installing about 5 different downloads :)
I don't play BMS much, but the F16 feels better to fly in BMS, less twitchy.
@@_Jake.From.Statefarm_ and yet could actually simulate a real war with an accurate depiction of weapons that DCS lacks.
@@gotanon9659 Lol for one aircraft... Not too hard when all you have to do is worry about one flight model. Let me know when you can accurately multirole an a tomcat, eagle, hind, and Apache... The f-18 in BMS is dogshit lol.. the viper and it's dynamic campaign is the only thing that bms does well and it's had 30 years to get there...
You hit the greatest boom op of all time! Contact with the sighting door closed. 8:39
I set up a shaker system using transducer pucks under my throttle and stick (nothing on my seat yet as I'm building my own seat). I'm not a pilot, but I know from autocross and track days how important that seat-of-plants feedback is when it's not there while playing auto racing sims. It's a huge help having those physical cues giving you an idea of what the plane is doing, even if it is rather basic.
I've tried that, but the transducers made the hall sensors go crazy 🙄
There is an FFB stick base for about 800 dollars the VPForce that works with the Warthog.
Yeah 800 is a lot, but it's the LRIP by a small one man start-up and it's about 700 less than the Brunner stick.
And it's DirectX compatible.
Completely agree with you Mover. Haven't flown the viper since my retirement in 2010, but I second 100% what you comments about energy bleeding, 9 Gz turn and AAR. Big fun of your channel and great admirer of your mentality and your ethos!!!
Can you checkout BMS too?
BABE WAKE UP!! C.W. Lemoine just dropped a new DCS video!!! 😍😍👏👏
The DCS medal system is hilarious. I got the CMOH for something silly like that mission. Microprose got this right back in the 80's with Gunship and Stealth Fighter.
Great that theres another microprose sim player besides me 🤙
I played the hell out of Nighthawk 2.0 when I was a kid, and still play once in a while. I know the manual nearly in and out for that particular game. Also, I had M1 Tank Platoon. I'm thinking of giving that a revisit.
@@SeaWasp I played Gunship on the C64 - the cassette version. It took a while to get in the air ;)
@@SeaWasp M1 Tank Platoon was great. Also F-15 Strike Eagle, Silent Service, Red Storm Rising, Airborne Ranger. They made the best sim games back then. Their final real sim, Falcon 4.0 is still going strong today and even has VR support.
@@barryrodgers3039 and the new microprose recently reaquired
@@SeaWasp You are not alone.. i flew a lot of the Microprose sims back in the 90s and well into de 2000s as i couldnt run Falcon 4 very well, flew a lot of F-15III and Fleet defender
The thing is, we need these "Sim checks" because often there are things where those of us who do not have access the real airframe and may never get access to it, may wonder if behaviour X is "simism" or if really happens.
An example that we got answered recently regarding a 777, if you during flight pull the fuel control and shut down an engine, and then flip it back to RUN right off the bat, the engine would fairly quickly restart itself.
Something I thought was "simism" because it didn't seem realistic, but it has happened for an example.
I wondered what your thoughts were on the updates. Thanks for doing this!
Unfortunately this High Aspect BFM instant action mission for Viper is broken in DCS since MT or a bit earlier (I mean your opponent just flew straight and did nothing). Thanks for the AAR: it amazes me how real-world Viper pilot naturally does what takes a lot of practice to master from your regular DCS player. It reminds me couple of videos with real-world Navy pilots landing on a carrier in DCS. I do realize that it's just a game and much more factors come in to play in the real world, but still many years of training and professional experience mean a lot. Thank you for your service and for the great content!
The Instant Action mission you're using is for very beginning pilots, it helps to learn shooting when the bandit is straight and level. Try the next mission afterwards, those bandits will fight back after the merge.
I love reminding people that I fly pixel planes in Dang Crash Simulator.
The next mission after is 2 v 1. They used to fight back IIRC.
@@CWLemoine just met Capt. Aimee ‘Rebel’ Fiedler and the Viper Demo Team. Awesome group of outstanding people.
@@CWLemoine I checked, turns out it is the previous mission, not the follow on instant action mission.
Gotta love that fighter pilot sense of humor! 🤠
You should ask if the FSSB-R3L MKII folks could loan you a unit. I was always curious how realistic it is.
The pitch up might be the autopilot altitude hold switch being on. At least, that is the behavior I see when I leave it on and start pulling the jet b/c it does not auto-disconnect
Betting you know this but worth a look
Hey Mover! Now that you are back into flying stuff, why don't you give a chance to Falcon BMS? The graphics won't blow you away, but now it has VR and the flying model is rather different than the one in DCS.
You should try the Falcon BMS F-16
Bleed feels like there's too much drag. I'd be curious if you've ever flown BMS blk 50? Would be really neat to see your take on a comparison between the 2 FMs in a clean config like you did here. Not to rag on one sim vs another just to comment on which feels more like what you flew. Since both are in active development there's plenty of areas that can still be improved.
I hated the Warthog joystick effort so I bought a Virpil VPC Warbird base and moved the upper Warthog "stick" part to the Virpil base. So much improvement.
That’s what I have.
Which springs do you use?
So glad to see you back in DCS, made sure to throw a like on the video to do my part.
Thanks for this. Always enjoy your aviation content. Hope the views pick up.
Great Job on the AR! I only yelled "Back 4" once 🤘🤘
I got that old TM Cougar. Serves fine and fits the module. Didn't get the feel until hall sensors from Honeywell installed. Pressure sensors on stick would be great too but TM doesn't make those sticks anymore. DCS module still seems power weird but in any case simmers like to fly it since BMS. Its fun and capable bird in real. Has a good record worldwide even for Thunerbirds. Very small machine but it can take a lot in the air. Its an icon. Glad to hear DCS is close.
If you want real competition, jump on some MP server. Things are crazy out there. From high speed gunzo to seasonal campaigns with lot of great pilots worldwide. No ranks there.
Hope to see way more Mover DCS contents
WOOOO Always happy to see more DCS content
*All* the correct sounds took me back to my crew chief days on the Block 40s at Hill AFB.
I absolutely love how you said 'I am a war criminal'.
I like how Betty called Bingo state after your wings were shot off. 😂. Technically correct
Great video and good comments. You are right though for the Block 50/52 the energy bleed off is too high. You can tell just from Takeoff as on a 10,000 runway clean you should have 500+ knots before going vertical.
Something about Track Ir. It can and will lead you to think you have the stutters, micro stutters, inconsistent frame rates. Things like the distance or in my case even a little ambient light can affect its tracking. I've seen people spend a lot of time tweaking their system forgetting all about Track Ir. Many even brush it off and say "I checked it" and keep on. If in doubt. TURN IT OFF and then experiment. If you have made adjustments definitely use a STOCK profile to test.
Great to see you back in DCS.
appreciate the reasonable perspective and all the nuggets of knowledge shared. Golden!
Great to see you back in DCS mate.
Now try falcon bms😊
Ive been complaining for years how bad the energy bleed is on the f16. The developer sticks with their data sheets more than multiple real life pilots opinion.
Now now, Mr. C. W. Lemoine, I made the mistake of calling DCS a game in the comment section on youtube and took a lot of "flak" - getting told its a SIMULATION, so I ended up just deleting my post. I play DCS as a game - I am doing it because I love airplanes and I want to have fun. I do not pretend I am a fighterpilot and never have, as my little pink butt is not on the line. So I do stupid stuff sometimes as at the end of the day if it aint fun, I am doing something else instead. Thank you for your video and your input on DCS.
Simulations are games. People play them to enjoy themselves and roleplay. It doesn’t matter how real they are. They are still games.
@@OVERSPEEDsos un capo
I can't wait for you and Ray to try F15E when she is released!
Thanks for the information! During the instant action your altitude hold was on which is why the jet was fighting you.
Falcon BMS 4.36 is even more faithful to the F-16 flight model. Try it.
4.37 even so and has VR :). I'd love to hear Movers opinion, once he'd try some flying, a/a refuel, BFM and other stuff in BMS, but I doubt it's gonna happen anytime soon
Those pilot director indicator (PDI) lights are hard as hell to keep working.
DCS videos are always fun. I can see the appeal of taking it seriously, but I prefer watching videos by people who don't take themselves too seriously.
19:03 You have Autopilot on, middle position on the right little lever says altitude hold.
Just saw athat Mike CK already said this, my bad.
I didn't turn it on though. And it wasn't on for the other mission. Weird.
@@CWLemoine Perhaps something to do with autostartup? Or accidentally made som wierd keybind for it? Made a print screen with win+shift+s and zoomed in and compared against it images on chicks guide of the f-16 cockpit. And Im positive its enabled. If you try again make sure all autopilots are off, curious if that removes that bouncing for you. Oh and as a swede I must say I loved your content with JAS 39 Gripen! ❤️
I didn't use autostart for the instant action 1 v 1. I just hopped into the instant action. If it enabled, it did it on its own somehow.
@@CWLemoine Oh I see, probably just spawned with it enabled. I bet you spawned in flight?
Thank you for your service !
As a life long flight sim lover and low hour single engine pilot irl they are games, of the simulator genre for sure. Good fun though. RealSimulator FSSB R3 base or WinWings Orion 2 MFSSB. The feel is night and day with the F16 in dcs with the pressure sensitive base vs spring bases. Those early training fights with wags the ai are dumb and just there as easy target practice. Thank you for another great video!
I still remember the don't f up ahole when you were refueling. DFUA, down forward up and away. Shit works 😂
With tankin (even with that little disconnect) one can just see, kinda immediatly, you are a real ex f-16 pilot. Very nice to watch when somebody gets those things by hearth. 👌
10:28 thanks for the disclaimer
Don’t let Gonky get you slow when y’all fight! 😂
Still love the dog picture ! Good to hear from you .
Cosider the virpil mongoose base that has stiffer springs and shorter throw and now even a damper, I find it very intuitive for the viper.
Had me at "non standard maneuver" !!
That 4090 is dope. You got a great rig. I was thinking of upgrading my CPU and GPU soon. Got a Ryzen 5 2600 and Nvidia 1660ti for now.
Good to see you noodling in DCS again, Mover, and risking the wrath of the DCS nerds. Fun video!
Great video. I was thinking about getting the WinWing F-16 EX Throttle eventually.
1:02 almost sounded like he was back in an actual cockpit with the breathing
At the very start of this clip, when Mover gets smashed with the missile, saying that everything was good. All I could think of was Topper Harley in Hot Shots. 😂🤣
At least the tanker lights work. Huh? I must have my monitor contrast too low. I think I saw the left side strip for a second. Glad it works for you. :)
You tanked like a drunken Scotsman fumbling with his key in the front door after a stag night out with a kebab in one hand. Made me feel better about my efforts. Love the channel.
You should get in touch with Hasard Lee, if you miss flying the F16C :P
I played F16 Fighting Falcon in the 90s on WIN98.
The graphics improved a little
After fiddling with WarBRD base and Warthog stick for quite some time and trying out different spring configurations I kinda gave up. The stick is so heavy that you must use heavy springs which makes a problem when you get close to the full deflection.
Now I have a VPC MongoosT CM3 Base with soft springs and clutch set so that the stick slowly returns to the center and there's just a little bounce if you let it go at full deflection. Everything is easier to control because you need much less force to move the stick.
TOMCATS good stuff think its as good as it can be, I build my own BFM missions with the editor as instant action is pretty weird. In that style though I gotta dodge the AI guns on the merge as they love to pilot snipe you. Jet is still Early Access with like you said public info sooo it is what it is.
If you want to fly F-16s. I think there may be an opening in Europe in a few weeks ;-)
Yeah the quick start missions need some editing. You can go into mission editor and make the AI respond better to your presence for the HABFM sortie. I know you have better things to do though. Cool to see you in DCS again Mover.
you would need to use force sensing stick. makes a huge difference
DCS likes to assign controls to random things. If I don't remember to clear it, by default, my rudder gets mapped to roll/ailerons, *on top of* (correctly) mapping to rudder/nose wheel. The result is about what you'd expect... it ain't pretty that's for sure. I wouldn't be surprised if that happened to a key or axis in your profile.
You should watch the ELI21 DCS Cinematic, which sounds not that great but it's actually really well recorded and edited. With the subtitles (you can't easily tell what they say) it also makes sense what the tactics were intended to be. Overall, it's just great and you'll probably find some things to comment on, explain or generally talk about.
Mapping of x and y axis of the Warthog throttle mouse is often the culprit.
Very interesting stuff! Thanks a lot! Greetings from switzerland.....
Great video, thank You sir! Recommend the FSSB-R3L MKII “ULTRA” base for Your stick which gives You realistic F-16 stick movement and resistance. Havent seen the AI so Pacifistic before...
Love those vids....and yes.. AAR with that boom is still a absolute worse thing in DCS. Always feels like the boom is just layed very slightly on top of the jet, without any connection or anythign else.. 1 knot too muhc or less or litte bit left/right and it just falls off.
Wonder why they added a disconnect button here... nothing to disconnect at all :D :D
In DCS if You go 9g You blackout fast. It's possible to sustain slightly above 8G and don't GLOC. That helps planes like Mirage 2K and Hornet as they can sustain 8G at 360 knots. I just have F15 and I can't out rate M2k or F/A 18. I think in DCS F16 is similar to F15.
Very interesting to hear your comments on DCS and the F-16! Maybe you can try PVP next time. Or multiplayer PVE.
I don't think he'll ever release a video doing BVR PVP, to avoid (accidentally) revealing any classified information
Did you subconsciously g strain at 20:38 ?
I have a 3080ti with a i9 13900k. I get 140 fps with all graphics on Max. The multi threading makes a huge difference. I get about another 30 fps.
Winwing makes a force sensing stick. Not sure if it's worth for you to get if you aren't flyin much
"...war criminal." Milk came out of my nose.
VRFlightSimGuy has been impressed with the motion control rigs. I wonder how that would fill in for you for the missing “seat of the pants”.
During your dogfight part . You said everything is bouncing and sloppy. I think the plane was fighting you because your alt hold and hgd hold was engage.
I may be wrong
It appears that may have been the case. No idea why it was active there but not the other mission. I didn’t engage it.
@@CWLemoine could be a bind in common with something else
"This is dumb he didn't do anything" is 50% of my experience with DCS AI. The other 50% is "how the hell did he do that?"
The enemy aircraft at ~16:00 was texting & flying. Didn't see you
You could have trimmed it out Lemoine! :) You can get a butt kicker to a full multi axis powered 3d motion chair for home use. Also good for racing sims.
You don’t trim the Viper typically (except rudder)