Rondel Daggers for HEMA & Reenactment
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- Опубликовано: 28 сен 2024
- Safe training daggers for use in HEMA and reenactment, their context and use, and a review of the Kvetun practice dagger: kvetun-armoury...
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“Most people have just one rondel dagger” reminds me of the xkcd comic about experts overestimating the general public’s knowledge about their field of expertise xD
No that's an understatement most people on average own 1.2 rondel daggers
But by distribution there is one guy that owns half of the worlds supply
More people in general. Most people take large swathes of their experience and conditions for granted and mistakenly assume it as baseline, universal, or normal. It is but more obvious regarding experts since what they take for granted is by definition less common for the given time.
A lot of people own a screwdriver or bit of metal which, with a bit of effort, could be as effective as a rondel dagger.
I'm not sure what it is - probably your unending enthusiasm - but your videos are always uplifting and a source inspiration. Great discussion once again and thank you once again.
Cheers, Matt! Keep 'em flying!
I really appreciate Matt's willingness to give honest & fair criticism about products that give him joy nevertheless. He's clearly passionate about HEMA, swordsmanship, and weaponry in general, but he's always willing to point out flaws or oversights in the products that give him joy. Definitely not a shill.
@@benjaminb505 Well said.
I loved the sound of the sword going back into the sword pile
An improvement to safety at the cost of historical accuracy might be for the blade to be pre-bent or curved to one side and back to center, or have a flex point offset from the central axis, so that virtually every hit induces a flex. However, it could potentially become more prone to breaking as a result.
We would all like it to be a little thicker and a little stiffer.
Matt, I like your tie in with grappling, BJJ, wrestling and the knife. I'm not sure if you've heard of or worked with Craig Douglas, teaches for a company called ShivWorks. He sometimes does classes in the UK. I think y'all would both have some really good experience to share with each other.
I wouldn't want to face one of those unless my opponent was someone who I fully trusted to use it skillfully and judiciously. Too many possibilities for injury.
In the Schola St George, we used rubber rondels for unarmored sparring, which worked fine. But you couldn't feel them at all through any decent kind of protective gear.
Fascinating design considerations! Seems like making a safe rondel dagger is much more difficult than most people would think.
This makes me want to learn HEMA!
I made one of these some time ago out of spring steel for the blunt blade and some large discs worked out well
It would be interesting to see a "plunger" dagger, similar to the bayonet trainer. It wouldn't look very good, but I think it would probably be much safer.
As someone who likes to learn how these things were used historically, I must say I do hate when grips are too long. It really does change the way a weapon is carried & used quite drastically.
A misericorde (from French word miséricorde 'mercy') was a long, narrow knife, used from the High Middle Ages to deliver the death stroke (the mercy stroke, hence the name of the blade, derived from the Latin misericordia, "act of mercy") to a seriously wounded knight. The blade was thin enough to strike through the gaps between armour plates.[1]
This weapon was used to dispatch knights who had received mortal wounds, which were not always quickly fatal in the age of bladed combat; it could also be used as a means of killing an active adversary, as during a grappling struggle.
A bit curious you didn't mention synthetic and wooden daggers.
We have begun to allow synthetic nylon daggers in our poleaxe and messer sparring. It adds a bunch of fun.
In reenactment, daggers are generally banned on battlefields because it's impossible to quickly discern if it's sharp or not, combined with many people might forget they carry a sharp in their belt from their civic clothing.
This could be solved by using wooden daggers instead.
I wonder if rippling the blade would solve the stiff poke problem. By not having a strait blade to start with, it should deflect with less effort.
As the Grip is quite big, what about a spring mechanism on the inside, that allows the blade to collapse a bit against some resistance to absorb the peak forces. In that case I'd recommend e more triangular shape of the blade.
I am aware that this might add some weak points, but it would be interesting to see if it could be robust enough
Does it need to be steel then ? A nylon blade could do, unless you'll be parrying with this somehow. It also could be attached in a stiff way to your belt, so it can't start balancing down ?
Panzerstecher, but this could be also a rapier length sword used in late 17th/ very early 18th century by polish , hungerian, ausrian ( lesser degree other german states) when fighting Ottoman troops.
Falling on it would be slightly less dangerous if they were the "I" Shape handle or basic cross guard handled, not Rondel. Those types were also used.
I recommend they don't use spring steel but a flexible zinc or nickel steel as a roundel is to short for a save spring steel Feder.
You have select zinc & Nickle steel compositions that can be bent back to their originally shape without forming ductile fatigue fractures.
This is why Nickle wound strings are so often used in instrument for a similar desired outcome.
Perhaps a thin potion of spring steel as an internal spine inserted into heated nickel steel as mentioned matt as composite construction of sorts so it still springs back but in a very different manner.
Awesome educational vid! Does anyone else make sparring safe steel rondels that are les expensive than kvetun?
Darkwood Armory.
Unfortunately due to the metallurgy and heat treatment to get the proper safe flex that will be hard to find.
I'm not sure what your point is DA rondels have the safe flex for harnischfechten and have been time tested having been used for years. Kevetuns are new, so the risk is unknown.
@@lefthandedhemawithlordrami8220 The point was that I don't know any trusted brands and was asking about them. I was just asking if he knew of good alternative brands. Specifically for blossfechten sparring. I'd like a steel Rondel that's safe for bloss sparring, but the kvetuns are $200, so I was asking if there are cheaper alternatives for steel rondels for dagger sparring.
Darkwood runs about $100 and can be me to different degrees of flex if you ask. So I think it might be something to look into as it is very similar in blade performance to what Matt is showing.
Interesting, I have 3 of Todd Cutlers rondel blades, they're excellent, but the bollock daggers are my favorite blades, although they don't penetrate as well as rondels
I really want more hema knives on the market.
Kinda makes sense why you might NOT want to have a backup dagger in HEMA for safety reasons; now that you have explained it. I guess that if your at the point in a fight that you need it, your already at the grappling stage which would be a different discipline anyway.
I wonder if the blade could be made to flex primarily at just the base near the grip, so if it does break, it breaks there, leaving little to no sharp remnant with which somebody could be hurt.
Yeah, metal, but I suspect that there are any number of rubber or plastic composites that would solve the blade problem.
Yeah, cold steel rondel trainers have been a hema staple for years, are less than 20 dollars, and I've been using the same one for several years without breakage.
Don't see the point in dropping that money into a side arm you may or may not use. Plus dagger time is a great chance to ditch the heavy gear in the summers when using the plastic stuff.
Would stage daggers work in HEMA and reenactment?
Maybe a collapsible / telescopic dagger surrogate would be the safest option for HEMA?
But why have a steel trainer though? For a dagger? The advantages of steel over plastic is a more realistic weight and binds. Both are irrelevant with daggers and knives
it sounds like throws and takedown with a weapon involved are among the most dangerous aspects of hema?
@MartialArtsJourney has their Ultimate Self Defense Challenge series that has a segment where the participants, unarmed, faced an attacker with a blade... wrestling gets you killed when the foe has a blade...
It was a very flawed test. Most of the people involved were not particularly trained in knives compared to pugilism or other weapons and many of the scenario conditions were either neutral or in favor of the knife-wielder.
Q lot of the creators involved in that project have a lot of valid things to say on martial arts and self-defense generally, yet most of them have demonstrated repeatedly that they have a very limited understanding of the involvement of weapon other than maybe hard2hurt whose understanding is mostly restricted to specific weapons employed in a low-skill, modern crime context. While weapons do give a massive advantage over someone unarmed, take the results of those tests with a lot of salt.
@@nevisysbryd7450 I generally agree, I would love if their network of creators were more accepting that they're biased and inexperienced; even Icy Mike from Hard2Hurt, whose 'extensive experience' was primarily him, an armed cop, attacking usually unarmed opponents to "take them down". Even his exp. with armed foes comes with the bias of being an armed cop (typically with armor).
That said, I've been attacked many times "in real life" (being mugged) including with knives, am a military veteran, and a life-long student of combat-oriented martial-arts (historical and modern).
if your opponent has a sharp thing, or a friend you didn't see, grappling/going to the ground with them will get you hurt, or killed. they'll stab/cut you half a dozen times before you can react, esp. if you didn't see the weapon first.
going to the ground is SO advantageous for someone with a knife, that that is the historical origin of Jujutsu (Jiu-Jitsu); samurai techniques for taking someone down in armor to put a knife in the gaps.
PS speaking of a genuine Rondel within the correct time frame of course
17:45 "Most people just have one rondel dagger"
Actually, *most* people don't have any rondel daggers ;)
Triangular blades go through plate, and in between. So do tanto tip daggers.
yeah the tanto is in fact the japanese dagger. although, what we call tanto tip in the west is usually quite "squared" nowadays, if that makes sense, but I've seen very thick and pointy versions of historical tanto blades that look exactly right for that kind of job!
@@hic_tus, You're correct! There is a whole category of Japanese tanto called Yoroi-dōshi or "armor-piercing". Many of the surviving specimens are every bit as spikey and stabby as European Late Medieval daggers. Many of them don't even have much, if any, of a cutting edge to speak of. Like their European counterparts, they're just a pointy spike. Also, several surviving historical Yoroi-dōshi tanto are actually old yari blades that were later repurposed.😁
@@andreweden9405 I know right?? same problems, same solutions!
Darkwood Armory hss made these for years at a much more reasonable price. As for the tip jusr like longsword for HEMA they can and should be tipped with a rubber blunt.
I went to Ren Fest last year as Ciri from Witcher 3. That costume has a rondel dagger with it, and I had that problem with it flipping upside down. Really annoyed me.
Lead in the sheath tip would solve the problem. Get a wheel weight from a tire shop
I think a potato masher would be a safer simulator! 😂
classic.
🗿👍
Ah, so you're saying, there is no point to this HEMA dagger?? 0~o sorry, sorry low hanging fruit. >~
9:30 I like how you turned the dagger in hand to stab with the flat of the blade on the vertical axis, so that if it slips and slides and bends, it won't end up in your face.
Small detail, but I really appreciate it.
I always like it when people are being properly cautious with their handling of arms and tools.
What about LARP foam daggers instead of metal ones? No sharp ends, no hard crossguard to fall on, and too thick to fit through helmet visor eye slits.
But also no telltale "clink" on hits to aid in scoring.
for safety, and to even allow near-full-send strikes, I would want one that's non-metal. either a "disposable" wood/rattan one, or a polymer that flexes, returns to true, is light and strong but WILL NOT break in a dangerous way (or at all), such as HDPE.
I was thinking the same thing. It is forearm length blade, the training difference due to mass would be minimal. Reminds of Stocatta armor videos, HEMA has a fetish for having everything be like feders and black commercial gear and it gets in the way of sense sometime
@@PJDAltamirus0425 quite true. I remember, back in the 90's, the SCA was the "serious" EMA org, b/c hard-armor plus dull wood meant we could fight at full speed and full power, with minimal chance of injury, while the burgeoning Live Steel guys had to fight at half speed and half power (also with 10x the cash value of gear) lest they seriously harm each-other.
when you have to 'go lite' to not harm your partner, you fight VERY differently. so having a safe weapon analog is vital, if you want your combat to be as close to realism as possible.
I faced a failed foil blade at university.
By eck, did I learn to fence that day.
😳
Why not rubber daggers?
You could equally use a piece of broom shaft cut down if you wanted dirt cheap. Rubber flexes more but should be usable too.
IMO steel is better, and I have sparred dagger with both. There's something about the weight, the way it binds with another blade and the sense of terror when it's coming at you that makes it a more satisfying fight. That doesn't mean rubber is bad, just I find Steel better. You are getting bruises with steel though.
@@ianlynch8047 how about rubberising only the tip of a steel dagger?
@SkepticalCaveman I think if you rubberised the blunt tip of one of these Hema daggers it'd work fine. I'd really want to be sure it wasn't over the point of anything sharp though because that could go horribly wrong
or just use the rubber trainer rondels that are like $10, at least in un armored context.
I find the cold steel rondels to work pretty well for rondel practice and they are cheap.
"average person has one rondel daggerr" factoid actualy just statistical error. average person has no rondel daggers. Matt Easton, who lives in England & buys over 10,000 each day, is an outlier adn should not have been counted
Same thing with firearms. While there are more than people in the USA, something like 1/5-1/4 of people own a firearm at all. Many of those who own a firearm own multiple.
I have exactly one rondel dagger, so I feel like the statistic is valid 😂
Oh Matt, you know only English Heritage reenactment. Try visiting Wolin.
That dagger is pointless.
A large tip could be used with a spring to retain the dagger upside-down in a sheath.
I feel a steel dagger trainer can only be safe for drills or armored HEMA, maybe okay for off-hand use like Durer's messer and dagger. Anything harder and bloss, I'd only feel okay using plastic, rubber, or leather.
As for my sheath solution, I use a paper towel tube.
I enjoyed that, thank you. Just a thought but would an easy fix to the weight balance and tip safety be to put a lead mass on the tip?
How long do a dagger need to be in order to be called a short sword?
At least 12 inches/30 cm
Randell dagger blades are 12-20 inches, so I guess they already have the length .
Is it length, or style of construction/intended use that considers something a short sword? I'm guessing it's all about context. 😎
Relation to body size.
Dagger total length maxes out around elbow to fingertip.
For me, that is 18 inches.
Not to say a dagger can't be longer, but if it is I won't use it the same way I would a shorter blade.
IMO it's worth learning enough leatherwork to make sheaths (and buying the minimum supplies: some upholstery needles, artificial sinew or similarly thick thread, a leather punch set, a hammer, a craft knife, a marking tool, and a ruler). Wood-cored scabbards require some woodworking tools (hand plane, chisels, gouges, saws, sanding block(s). It's not terribly difficult to get something functional, even if it doesn't look great. And it means you can repair or replace damaged ones more easily.
For people with enough time and money, this is fine. But many people only have enough time/money for one activity.
@@johnbennett1465 Or a housing situation conducive to it.
Eh. Ive been looking for a good steel rondel simulator, but that price tag is too much for me. Ill stick to the cold steel trainer for now. If it can hold up against swords I'd consider it
Hiya, sorry to bother you, im aware that rondel daggers generaly have some sort of an edge on them, however poor, but i was wondering if some rondels were simply made blunt (without a sharpend edge), so "exclusively" thrust centric?
Im thinking of thoes 15th century rondels with 4 edges
If you have any info i'd appreciate it
🙏
I SAID LEFT TURN EASTON!!! DON'T YOU KNOW YOUR LEFT FROM YOUR RIGHT?!?!?!
Long longsword fights also take forever.
I thought I'd seen period dagger sheaths with a decorative weight on the end, and I wonder if the mentioned balance issue is the reason.
Now that i think about it long sword fights take forever.
Only when you are not trying to mess eachother up. In real duels someone is down or out within minutes, usually 3 or 4 little skirmishes, then suddenly one of you makes their move .. nearly always the end of the fight within seconds. When you do it in Hema, 'deathblows'/disabling blows are essentially non existant and you fight to win by points. In real fights you fight to disable/kill the other guy before he can seriously hurt you. How much armour is worn tends to lengthen duration of combat.
..aka "miserecord'..
What is it with this new wave of English speakers showing off fancy new French words that they've learnt? Is English not dead enough at the hand of this little game? 🤡
Yay. As I've been working on a rondel, I was stunned how long the grip was. It just looked weird right off the bat.
Thanks for the review ⚔️