Rocket Powered Medieval arrows vs Armour!
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- Опубликовано: 26 сен 2024
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Rockets were used in the eastern world for warfare from at least the 15thC, but not in Europe. However we used them a little in the 16thC, but not fitted to arrows....
I am certain someone would have tried it, so now it is my turn. Let's make medieval style rocket powered arrows live again! But how do they perform and why might they have wanted them? There is only one way to find out and that is to make some and try them out for real.
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Arrow data
Type. weight. V at launch. V at 60m. E at 60m. Mom. at 60m Distance
Untethered arrow 90gm. 44ms. 35ms. 55J. 3.15kg.m/s. 200m
Dummy rocket arrow. 128gm. 32ms. 13ms. 11J. 1.7kg.m/s. N/A
Live rocket arrow 128gm. 29ms. 74ms. 350J. 9.5kg.m/s. 490m*
*estimated
Speculative numbers based on estimated speed at 90m
Type. weight. V at launch. V at 60m. E at 60m. Mom. at 90m Distance
Live rocket arrow 128gm. 29ms. 95ms. 578J. 12.2kg.m/s. 750m*
*estimated
I have to apologise and say that I knew about the hwacha, but I was unfamiliar with the amazing range of rocket weapons that were regularly deployed by the Chinese in particular. It appears that they managed to overcome many of the cost/logistic issues that I assumed were present when I was looking from a Western European viewpoint. I can only apologise for any misleading statements I made and than the comments section for highlighting this. My favourite was man portable multi shot launchers in the 14thC! Amazing!
Tom, if you're interested in details (proportions etc) about Chinese rocketry there is a blog named "great Ming military" which covers the issue in several post. Just google great ming military rocket-weaponry-of-ming-dynasty
If it hasn't already been recommended in this thread (there are A LOT of comments), a good general overview is Fang-Toh Sun's paper "Early Rocket Weapons in China." If it has already been recommended, it's still a good paper.
"How could I resist?" Please don't resist. For our sake.
I like not resisting. Made another fun one with the trebuchet the day after......I couldn't resist that one either
The video I never knew I wanted, but desperately needed
Rocket arrow launched from a 160 lbs monster?
First arrow in orbit?
Y agree !!!!
This is how I feel about almost every video on this channel!
I continue to learn so much and yet, Tod still manages to surprise me with the most (seemingly) random and epic videos!
Make the collab happen!
Thanks for dropping by Dash and glad you enjoyed it.
Rocket powered arrows were used in massive quantities in China and Korea (Nest of Bees, Hwacha, Fire Carts), where gunpowder was cheap (at least in China) as all the ingredients can be domestically produced. No need to shop ingredients from other countries in order to make gunpowder.
Secondly, things like the hwacha and the fire cart aren’t slow to reload, at least not when compared to a musket. The reason is that when one frame is fired, they replace the entire frame with another frame that’s already pre-packaged with fire arrows. They don’t need to insert new fire arrows one by one into the frame. It’s like the Nest of Bees, when you fire one bundle you just grab another bundle. You don’t package the fire arrows during battle, that’s done by the artificers before soldiers even march to battle.
Thanks and lots of content I didn't know - appreciated and sorry if I mislead at all.
If you think about it where do you store arrow? In quivers. How do you transport them? On a cart. What is a Hwacha? A giant quiver on a cart. So the Hwacha is both the storage crate and the launcher. If they were loosely packed in a barrel or box it would risk damaging them.
@@MrMonkeybat On a related note, I think it might be a mistake to assume Hwachas were only used at long range. Arrows shot from a bow were most effective at
The Chinese even purposely drilled the holes in their arrow launchers to be at random angles, as they recognized it worked best as a mass terror weapon with the ability to punch through armour
Completely fine, glad to help!
Anyway, as an example, general Qi Jiguang’s military manual says that, in terms of gunpowder weapons:
A single mobile cannon fort battalion would have 3109 men , of which 2048 are combat troops. They have 258 light cannons, 8 great general cannons, 512 muskets, and 15360 rocket arrows.
A single cavalry battalion had 2699 men, of which 2160 are combat troops. They have 432 muskets, 432 arrow-shooting handguns, and 13000 rocket arrows.
A single infantry battalion had 2972 men, 1080 muskets, and 6480 rocket arrow devices.
How does this channel just keep getting better
By living our craziest dreams!
Thanks and glad you enjoy it
I do believe reason number one might have been the most important reason to do this kind of thing. Well done sir.
Have you heard of the Huolongjing? "The Fire Dragon Manual". Compiled in the 1300s, around the time of the Hundred Years War, illustrated guide to black powder weapons in China at the time, mostly bombs, rockets, spurt tubes and fire lances.
is that the one with all the illustrations, with just black ink on "white" paper?
I have now! Thanks and that sounds fascinating and just popping off to try and find it. Rats - can't find a copy. Does anyone have a pdf they would like to share?
@@tods_workshop i did a quick search and the library of congress has it as a pdf, but in the original chinese, so you might have to get someone to translate it!
@tods_workshop The US Library of Congress website has the book Huolongjing in both pdf and scanned images form. You will need someone to translate it properly, but you can use Google Translate (eg. scan & upload images) to get a very rough translation.
Medieval bolter.
I KNOW it's about to get epic when Tod is giddy about the experiment!
Thank you for creating some of the best content on the internet, Tod.
750 meters?!
Imagine a whole army of soldiers shooting these rocket arrows at 500m away from their enemies!
Terrifying!
Thank you - very kind
Compelling reasons... "because it's fun" And you have sold me on this video and idea.
The psychological damage of such a weapon coming towards you is not to be overlooked. We saw that in WW1 with the first use of the tank.
Tanks did huge damage and were virtualy invincible. This just fly over and do nothing unless you use large quantity which would be expensive.
@DalHrusk when first used, the tank had a psychological impact on the Germans greater than the physical impact they had on the battlefield as none of their weapons appeared to have any impact on the tanks. Now, imagine seeing smoking arrows coming towards you for the first time and not knowing what they will do to you or howvto combatbthem?. They may not do much physical damage, but a weapon that can kill or injure you when out of range of traditional weapons will strike fear into the hearts of those that face them.
Arrows needed to used in bulk to be effective.
@@neiloflongbeck5705 "none of their weapons appeared to have any impact on the tanks" - meanwhile artillery guys shredding tanks with direct fire like nothing: (marks had REALLY poor armor, even rifle calibers could wound crew behind the armor or even penetrate it with AP bullets, much less field gun)
@alexturnbackthearmy1907 not much in the way of field artillery in the front line, and that were most of the psychological impact was felt. AP bullets came after the first use of the tank.
Nebelwefer
That opening shot is amazing!
My son is playing a play station game loosely set around the Mongolian invasion of Japan, and there were Hwacha in the game. He thought they were a fantasy invention, but I told him they were real, if a little anachronistic for the period of the game, and invented by the Koreans.
He's most likely play ghost of tsushima, just started playing it myself. It's a great game.
Tod: "Do not try this at home!"
Yes, I was just walking through my fields, wondering what can I do with modern crossbow, historicly accurate arrows, some small rockets and a a few square meters of bulletproof glass
whatever you do, don't do the thing you are thinking of!
@@tods_workshop To late, I'm already in hospital ;-)
@@LuxisAlukard get well soon!
"how'd you end up here?"
"listen, rocket motors, and arrows."
"you wot?"
If Kerbal Space Program has taught me anything, it's that you gotta make stick at least 3 or 4 rockets on the arrow to make it somewhat stable
real
Saw a video up for Tod's Workshop, and then saw this and tapped so fast 😅
Ah yes, the Trebuchet. The perfect pole to tie a line to
Many times in life the solution requires a Trebuchet
Wow, just wow. Many thanks for the upload and living life to the full!
My pleasure on both counts.
I would like to see what hussite era firearms could do to plate armor.
Make holes in it. They were quite large calibre ..
He might need a couple of licences before that, but I'm all for it.
Not to mention Medieval plate wasnt as strong as early Modern plate as firearms werent the main consideration when designing it. It was thinner and most often not tempered.
Giggling at the shared glee. Just the pick me up I needed after today.
The trick is to get the enemy to hold the line while you fire.
"Jacque, could you hold this string? Yep, pull it taut. No, just ignore Joe Gibbs' great-great-great-great-great grandfather."
This video should started with 'Let me show its features: ha ha ha '
Notice the safety t-shirt
Mr. Sprave will respond with a video in about a week.
"This is my new, fully automatic, rubber band powered, rocket powered, gatling slingshot arrow shooter, HA HA HA HAA!"
@@IllustriousCrocoduck for sure , for sure
@@IllustriousCrocoduck 🤣 spot on
I love the pure glee in this video! :D
It's really contagious!
Thanks for that!
Always a pleasure watching a man loving his job this much :)
A very interesting video as always.
I seem to remember some youtuber who makes videos like this, maybe it was you, thinking about rubber for medieval time and could they have made it out of dandelions or some other plant in europe. Think the comment was made in winter and said that might try doing it next summer.
I think Tod would likely have best shot at trying to make rubber out of european plants with technology medieval people had.
Might also be too much messing about and waste of time, but that would be a result too.
Yes that was Jorg Sprave on my channel. I would love to try, but it seems like a lot of dandelions.
Hey Todd , I'm so jealous. Great vid, who cares if it's practical or not, damn good fun!
Here's a suggestion (feel free to add rocket motors if you want) but how about a crossbow bolt with 'mini-wings' just like modern gliding bombs? Surely that's worth a try?
Lots of room to experiment as in, wings behind the head or further back , varying degrees forward of the balance point. You might have to adapt a crossbow to fire them (if only you knew an excellent weaponsmith?) but I think it is easily enough done and might give significant range increase.
Do it, do it oh please do it, you know you want to.
Respects.
Tod! Awesome video! This is actually a really helpful piece for me, I've noticed that there are Chinese claims that siege artillery employed by the Mongols in the 13th Century (Triple Bow aka San Gong Chuang Nu 三弓床弩) was capable of throwing a spear sized dart 1.5km. Needless to say, modern reproductions haven't generated nearly enough speed even with fairly powerful prods.
A thought that I've seen suggested and one that I'm becoming more receptive to is that those 1.5km ranges aren't exaggerations; they are evidence of gunpowder turning these into rockets instead of bolts. Awesome video that certainly seems to support this as possible.
I struggle to see how a conventional bow of any type could shoot 1.5km , but interesting thoughts
@@tods_workshop It isn't really a traditional bow type, it is more similar to a Roman Catapulta Dart Thrower
Even so I think it's mroe likely to be a "translation" error of the unit, if it isn't "propaganda".
@@steemlenn8797 Potentially so, and I mean in those translations meters is a translation of the ancient unit of measurement being the Chinese "pace" so even that number isn't super exact. But even still, the 1.5km number could be halved and still be a ludicrously long distance to be achieved by a stringed projectile thrower.
But if that projectile also utilized gunpowder like in this video those extra long distances might be achievable, particularly with siege artillery. And we do know that both the 13th Century Chinese used (fireworks) as well as the Mongols being one of the early adopters of gunpowder in a martial capacity
Modern reconstructions have a draw weight of 350 lbs, less than a handheld crossbow. Whereas the triple prod arcuballista require giant winches operated by multiple men, way more than 350 lbs. So of course modern reproductions can’t compare.
Also it’s not 1.5 km more like 1 km as from the Tongdian. Albeit the Wujingzogyao says it’s only several hundred meters. The Arabic account of Mongols using Khitan (northern Chinese) ballistas reiterates that they fire at 1 km.
I would imagine they'd be best against horses and elephants- it's terrifying to people, but even worse for animals who hate that kind of noise and smell.
And is also really powerful, i bet that thing hitting an elephant would hurt A LOT, if not break some bones.
I especially enjoyed the cost-benefit analysis at the end. In that vein, it would be interesting (if somewhat more difficult, especially given your restrictions) to compare the damage vs. using a conventional crossbow to launch a grenade containing the same amount of blackpowder.
A black powder explosive that small won't really do anything against an armored opponent.
I agree with altar, it would require quite a bit to seriously endanger an armoured fighter, but eye will always be vulnerable
@@tods_workshop Good points. Even in full plate, a small nick in the arming doublet vs. the frag and deafening blast of even a small grenade would be a tossup. In anything less, I think the grenade would be much worse. Not necessarily immediately fatal, but a few concentrated at one point could suffice to break a line - which is when all the killing happened.
That would depend greatly on the nature of the grenade. Grenades are rarely designed around the explosion itself-the range and effect are too limited by the fuel supply available in such a small object. Grenades mostly use the explosion to propel either secondary incendiary material or shrapnel. How effective either of those would be against plate would be very detail-dependent.
Even though the arrows wouldn't have been accurate, the mental distress that would have been caused by them flying every which way, and the noise and smoke, probably would have been huge.
Agreed - in retrospect I probably underplayed the intimidation
@@tods_workshop You underplayed A LOT about the Hwacha and rocket arrows/artillery in general, there are so many obvious guesses and assumptions that its the first time I am actually deeply disappointed with a video of yours in all my years of watching, and it is one I definitely won't be revisiting unlike so many others, though, I will now be viewing even those with a new level of scrutiny. And its another example of an annoying trend I notice often among westerners who talk about Asian military history and technology. It comes to a point where its difficult to tell the difference between confident ignorance/laziness or plain old racism (and there is already plenty of both in the comments of this video from my looking, even if it is subtle). Though, I highly doubt you are the kind of person to fall into the latter category so I'll easily chalk it up to an unfortunate case of ignorance.
The Hwacha (and it variants) were used over several centuries and was noted as being a key factor in several important military victories for the Koreans. It was used on land and at sea, defensive or offensive. Early variants were more akin to organ guns while other variants moved past arrows and fired metal explosive rockets, with some variants of those rockets being airburst and filled with shrapnel and others being cluster munitions (Now these would have likely been the very expensive ones!), some were even flamethrowers. Hell, the Chinese invented and fielded the oldest known multistage rocket with cluster munition warheads in the early 1300s for naval use, and I doubt it was limited to purely naval use but sources are so rare that we will likely never know.
I'm perplexed by the assertion the weapon "didn't spread" because its nowhere near the only weapon of its type, and that is me being generous to you and limiting the area of reference to only East Asia. The Koreans weren't even the first to test and field a weapon like this, theirs is just the most iconic and most easily read about in Western sources. The Huolongjing references and illustrates a weapon incredibly similar to the Hwacha before the Hwacha was even developed. So, yes, it very much spread around seeing as it spread to Korea and they innovated on a useful concept learned from China.
Expensive? Black powder was proliferated across East Asia by this point and used extensively, and not even limited to East Asia because in South East Asia there were nations where even the smallest of towns and villages had dedicated saltpeter production for black powder, and we know this because it was a practice the Dutch outlawed and punished brutally in the Dutch East Indies. Majapahit being a notable one for having better artillery and more heavily armed ships than Europeans they fought, as told by said Europeans. I don't think you comprehend the scale of their black powder manufacturing.
Slow to reload? Hardly. They would replace the entire box with a preloaded one while the empty one was reloaded. Considering there were often multiple, sometimes dozens (some battle formations claim over a hundred), of them working together and the sheer amount of fire they could put down range (literally in some cases), their reload time hardly seems "slow" in comparison.
Inaccurate? Against individuals, yes. Against dense masses of infantry, its main target, in pre-sighted areas of fire ranging up to several hundred meters? No. Both the Japanese and Korean accounts of the Battle of Haengju note the several dozen Hwacha used by the Koreans as being a key deciding factor in the battle, a battle in which the Koreans defeated a force ten times their own. And its hardly the only one. According to surviving Korean records, they could fully pierce the shield and metal armor of a dummy at roughly 100 meters. The comparison to the congreve rocket is such an irrelevant and oblivious one, your own example videos show their behavior in flight being very different. Weird, almost like their base construction and flight characteristics are different, huh?
The Hwacha was preferred over the cannon artillery the Koreans had access to for many reasons in formations, a key one being mobility. I'm not sure if you have ever been to Korea or even looked at pictures of it. It is incredibly mountainous. Cannons, even wheeled, were too cumbersome to move around easily. Especially if you were battling on a slope. Reportedly, only a few men were required to move the Hwacha over rough terrain even in terrain where maneuvering a cannon would be impossible.
There is a famous, or infamous if you ask me, video of a Hwacha being fired on RUclips (not gonna link it, you'll know it when you see it) and I've had to deal with people eagerly citing it as proof of how ineffective the Hwacha is a weapon. The point those people seem to miss, sometimes on purpose, is that the Hwacha in the video was used by a gaggle of idiots that didn't even bother to sight it properly, clearly had the wrong amount of charge in the rockets, and fired it at a sparse scattering of targets (that the arrows landed short of due to the previously mentioned issues). I don't think they could have shown the weapon in a worst light even if they set out to make it fail from the start.
I'm not claiming it was a absolutely perfect wonder weapon, but to imply at all that it was an ineffective weapon is an objectively false and laughable notion. They wouldn't have developed and used a weapon for centuries or developed and used battle formations specifically around it if the weapon was as ineffective as your tone and wording implies. Your confident ignorance and possibly even arrogance in your assertions around this weapon is honestly kind of shocking and extremely off-putting to me for your content going forward. I expected someone of your caliber to be more educated and dialed in, and normally you are. I genuinely think you need to analyze whatever the hell happened with this video for you to come across like that and correct it for the future because it is frankly unacceptable from someone that is presented as some form of authority on a subject. I shudder to think how many misinformed viewers this video has spawned that will now obnoxiously spread misinformation wherever they feel because they have the false belief that they were educated on a topic. Every time a confidently incorrect video like this is put out by a popular RUclipsr, spaces for historians and hobbyists are flooded with nonsense and misinformation by eager idiots that mindlessly parrot "facts" they didn't bother to confirm themselves, from people that peddle "facts", thoughts, and assumptions that they didn't bother to confirm. Perhaps you might not care because it doesn't affect you, but it most definitely affects others.
Excellent as usual! 👍
I don't think you should neglect the impact of intimidation. Marching across a field with my comrades who can shoot a bow 200 yards, and getting peppered by FLAMING arrows from 700 yards; even if none hit, I am going to rethink my life choices.
The only thing you'd think is confidence in winning the battle, given that the enemy general chose to use a weapon that always misses its target. Flaming arrows weren't a new thing either, they all knew it was good for sieges but lousy against even simple armor. You're vastly underestimating these soldiers' intelligence and morale.
@@TheAsj97 As a soldier I wouldn't expect any hits from 700 yards. Hit rates aren't great even at much closer ranges. Crossing that distance while continuously under fire and not able to return fire would be daunting. As a conscripted peasant the situation is even more severe. My officer has convinced me that we are the better army, this blows a smoking hole in that belief
Thanks for highlighting this and in honesty I did probably underrate the intimidation factor. The other is that of course if the bodies of men you are shooting at are big enough then accuracy is not too much of an issue.
@@tods_workshop I'm thinking that these arrows would be especially useful against cavalry. Horses tend to react badly to...well, lots of things. Hissing flaming arrows would likely be one of those things.
@@tods_workshop I certainly think there was a niche for those and the mediaeval Katushka is definitely in my arsenal. Will I use them all the time, no but I would have them. Experience would tell you the range and the expected spead of the projectiles so you could saturate a pre-ranged area with half a dozen of these long range 'Saladin's organs.'
- a little modern for you but I' d love a video or two on the various forms of multi barrelled small cannon - just an idea. - - THANK YOU for sharing your wonderful exploits.
We have arrows and rockets. Hold my beer and watch this.
I had hoped you'd try rocket powered arrows ever since a few years ago I learned that these were actually a thing.
I know the accuracy vs a single target is propably appauling, but the pure psychological effect of having a few of these against an army would be devastating. Similar to very early firearms - they weren't precise, a lot of the time they didn't work at all and quite often, they'd blow up on themselves. But they were really loud and they made a fireball and smoke and everything - for people who hadn't been confronted with them before, it'll have felt like the legions of hell were attacking.
Anyway, great video!
Accuracy would be less important if it has the chemical/incendiary load from earlier.
And maybe a little bigger so you could lob fiery stuff a few hundred meters and over the defensive lines or walls.
Yeah, and then you could even make the load even bigger if you make a better launcher for it, and you could even get rid of the rockets to eliminate the innacuracy. Oh wait, that's a catapult.
And who really cares if you hit this guy, or one ten metres left or right.
Besides that, you were supposed to use a car that let you shoot a lot of them at the same time
These things would work well is fired in massed volleys, which is what the Chinese did (mostly); bc the individual accuracy is never going to be great; it'd be a really expensive weapon to operate though.
@captainnyet9855 True. But if you can scare the living crap out of them well before the battle that's worth a lot.
You gotta do the stinkbomb!
But how do we quantify the stink into numbers?
if it makes me pass out or retch its a goody
@@tods_workshop I'm imagining you and Matt doing this video and gagging, retching and laughing! Could be epic!
Tod, this might be stupid, but what about about sizing it up to your fletched spear size? Maybe using three moters at angles to create spin
Would that be more accurate in terms of massed infantry use
It would certainly be terrifying to see/hear a bunch of them coing at you, and the cost seems little more than the individual arrows
Better yet, a fire bolt of that size shooting into a city/castle from a range you are untouchable by anything the enemy has to set fires inside
Getting multiple motors to light at the same time is a huge pain without electronic ignition, and if one or m0re motors ignite late or not at all, the you have no idea where the arrow will go.
@@cameronwebster6866 You make a good point but I counter it with
With one motor you never know where the arrow will go haha
@@jamesj4827 I think the probabilities will work out in favor of one motor.
@@cameronwebster6866 Yeah I'm mostly joking, as you say, seems improbable to get them all to light off with period gear
Next that "Patriot"-Arrow from "Men in Tights" please :)
That's looks as Mythbusters but Adam and Jamie were combined into single person )
Hah, I got the same vibe
I think an untethered rocket arrow would wobble a lot, which would certainly waste energy. But I'm not a physicist, so I don't know how big of a factor it would have been.
It would be a tadd unsporting, but imagine a bunch of chaps had invested your castle in a seige and set up their command tents and any powder magazines at a safe distance. Then during the night, some dastardly knave was able to actually hit something important with these rocket bolts?
The main reason this works IMO is for dealing with horse archers. Humans get over fear of rocket arrows, but horses can't.
Good point - I hadn't considered horses
Loved the video, always interesting. Next time stick the rocket arrow(s) in a simulated cannon barrel, a good old steel tube, and see if goes anywhere near what you are shooting at. 😀
hmmmmm. a plan may occur
Imagine going up against a massed block of infantry and your archers loose a volley up into the air and right after they hit their apex and start coming back down the rockets kick in. Now instead of falling only with the force of gravity they would be hurtling towards the ground at tremendous speed. Very impractical with the added complexity and shortened range plus extremely difficult to pull off the precise timing, but it sure would be an awesome sight to see.
Yikes!
Utter nonsense, so you shoot heavy slow arrow and then right after the apex the engine kicks in and expands your ballistic curve into the next county.
that was awesome. felt like i was watching a fireball spell
I think the cost VS accuracy is such a big factor, the most powerful weapon is useless if it cant hit any enemy.
That said, guns emerged as well and not only had more energy and range, but superior accuracy to a rocket arrow.
Before rifled firearms became the standard the smooth bore firearms had abysmal accuracy. We're talking 30 yards maybe in ideal conditions.
There is also the variabilty in the rockets. Quality control of powder and rocket would have been functionally none existent. Firearms would have been more forgiving about poor powder.
@@edcrichton9457That’s heavily dependent on load, ammunition and the shooter. There’s videos of people shooting well maintained smooth bores to 100 yards. It’s perhaps always been the exception but it is possible
I mean enough of them, fireing out at a field, you mention guns, but the early guns had little to no accuracy, sure plenty of power, but it was more about luck than anything..
If this came a few years before i could see it having a role, but still i think it also comes down to a slower rate of fire, you have to take your time with these..
Would not be a pleasant experience facing these weapons.The terror factor would be huge.
Just watched the first shot, wow that was SO cool!
Brilliantly barmy, and I love it! 😆
"We're at 300 they can't rea..."
*fizz*
Run away! Run away!
Only a few minutes in but thank you for mentioning the Hwatcha, even if it wasn't the most practical, it is absolutely one of my favorite seige weapons from really any period.
I'd never heard of that before, but I have seen similar looking more modern versions so to speak from around WW1 onwards. I'm going to look up the Hwatcha but my first assumption is that even if it wasn't accurate, it must have caused terror once it was fired! Probably wound up making people break ranks or sent horses into panic mode!
@@NoFormalTraining Oh absolutely, I'd highly recommend looking into it more, they are incredibly interesting, and it was likely one of the more terrifying weapons to have fired upon you, I'd likely rank it somewhere near a flaming trebuchet boulder or worse. I'm actually curious, what more modernized WWI versions do you speak of? I am unfamiliar with the time but would love to learn more!
I tried making a miniature Hwatcha as a child, using bottle rockets and taped together drinking straws (as the carriage), I didn't know what it was called, I was trying to imitate the surface to air missile pods the military uses. It was a disaster.
As soon as the first couple fired off it knocked thing over and started spitting the rockets across the ground, mom was not pleased.
I wonder if the arrows from the Hwatcha used whistling rockets. I think that might amp up the terror effect.
If practicality is a must, the Chinese had man-portable wooden boxes that held anywhere from four to twelve rockets. They could either used singularly or you could stack multiple of these boxes and fuse them together to create a large barrage of hundreds of rockets.
For siege defences, they had double-ended rocket-launcher tubes that were lowered down the walls as they were lit, releasing as many as 60 rockets from both ends, each of these rockets tipped with poison on the head. That is some scary stuff!
It would never go in a straight line without the string. It's like aiming a firework rocket lol
Thanks, Tod, You've made my day. Again :)
An understated drawback of the rocket arrow is the need to have fire. Its so easy to forget that without modern lighters or matches you would have to begin every battle by having your entire archer line up around lamps or braziers to light some slow match or something to set off their rockets.
Not an insurmountable challenge, that's exactly what people did with matchlock muskets, but its just another straw in the cons column.
The Mel Brooks comedy movie "Robin Hood Men in Tights" has a rocket arrow. 😂 Lol
Simply Yes
Great video as always!
I think it'd be possible to make rocket powered arrows more accurate using spin stabilization similarly to how modern unguided rocket artillery does this. The simplest way to achieve this would be to split the rocket motor in two and mount them at a slight angle.
A good idea, and although I have not tried it, my suspicion is that with inevitable discrepancies between two craft made motors the ability to make them balanced would be tricky
Sounds like the 'Gyrojet' rocket pistol, the self contained round had holes as you described, but even with 20th century maths and manufacturing they had a hard time making it work
@@podgem-l4t Not really a hard time making it work...more like budget was limited, and bullet (and weapon) designs were awkward for trying to fit rocket motor in, as well as properly make them. Would they try it with like 12 gauge it would go a whole lot easier and better.
The problem with rockets is their centers of mass and centers of gravity are constantly changing as the fuel burns. The smaller the rocket, the more pronounced the effect is. You need large control surfaces or thrust vectoring to stabilize the rocket. Even rocket artillery shells have fins for this purpose.
Rocket Propelled Arrows. Lmao
RPG: Rocket Propelled Goose-feathers!
@@euansmith3699 Rocket Propelled Goose-feather Fin Stabilized Armor Piercing Arrows. RPGFSAPA
@@czeckwarrior2230 😄😄😄
Fantastic,I love it 😊
Todd looked a lot like Richard Hamster Hammond when he was younger.
Ahhhh. That would be because I was doing special effects for Richard Hammond at the time
Do you build all your test setups yourself? Really appreciate the amount of work that goes in behind the scenes, which many other youtubers would make a much bigger deal of xP
Thanks and yes I do make all the set up gear and often the items front of camera too.
@@tods_workshop It pays off, great videos, keep up the good work :)
I can imagine using this rocket and string setup to light preplaced explosives/ other flammables
This is all very exciting, but what we really need is for Todd and Matt to discuss the backup dancers’ use of half-swording in Chapelle Roan’s VMA performance 🔥
Houston, we have lift off.
More like
Hastings, we have a problem
Henley-on-thames...
How demoralizing would it be to be a man at arms and see your lord with the best armor with a arrow/bolt sticking out of his armor and knowing that you are about to get hit with the same thing, but in volley. That is just insane penetration.
If a mass of ten thousand men are approaching then you don't need to be pin point accurate.
Spoiler for the video:
It's genuinely stunning the level of energy the rocket motor created. At 95/ms we are in energy levels surpassing modern handguns in 9mm at point blank.
I know! - amazing numbers
You had me at rocket arrow, though question, wouldn't the addition of fins/ fetching help stablize/accuratize the flight?
Should have fired 1 without the wire in an open field just to check if it would actually be that inaccurate. Inertia from the crossbow and the fletchings should keep it relatively stable
I'm guessing Tod wasn't too keen on putting a rocket arrow through his neighbour's cow in the event that that proved not to be the case!
or firing a burning rocket into dry grass @@Lyrainthevalley
I had no idea how far it would go or in what direction and so there is no way to do it safely - sorry
Now imagine a 2 archer system: 1 to shoot the guide wire at the standard, the second to launch the rocket propelled arrow! With a flash and a bang all the mounted soldiers are dismounted by their flailing horses and stomped on. With many unguided flashbangs to come and intimidate the footmen.
Great vid! Thanks!
So you'd have to have 1 extremely accurate archer to shoot a wire attached arrow, then get another archer to shoot a gimmick arrow that would still miss because the wire needs to be taught in order to guide your gimmick arrow (and it wouldn't be taught because the enemy you already shot wouldn't stand still). Also warhorses weren't as scared as modern horses, or you know, they wouldn't be able to go to war.
Or you could just have that extremely accurate archer just shoot the enemy with an actual lethal arrow and not have to spend money on gimmick arrows that would never work in real life.
@@TheAsj97 absolutely, was just imagining the farce that it would be. Would make more sense to have flashbang arrows in a group of archers anyway. The first few times the horses wouldn't be accustomed to the bangs.
This was a rocket fired video!
Massed longbows firing these as a distance weapon seems like it should have been a thing
I think getting a reading of the arrow with both rocket full and empty off the line would have been useful to more accurately figure out the amount of drag from the string.
It would, but it is just not safe to do it without a line
time for coffee and vape... new Tod video!
HELLUVA thing!!!
Eureka! It works! Great! Now let's make it accurate. Errm......
you know warning is an suggestion to do it :) seems some kind of pre-black powder guns stuff. if the rocket motor head is the shape of an air foil, symmetric, blunt head. or even completely behind of the large crossbow bolt head. ballista rocket arrow. kinda like guided self-propelled artillery. an army is not supported by the enemy. army must be self-sufficient.
I'd be interested to see it without the wire guidance.
Assuming you can time it correctly I imagine the rocket at close enough range like you have here could still be viable. Combined with any of the resin fire arrows from your video you could even use the rocket advance the range of the weightier specialized arrows.
Tod's pleasure is so cool to see.
For some reason I envision that you will have a 'European' take on the Nest of Bees? I would love to see it!
It would also be cool (though I'm not sure about the legality) to see an attempt at a firearrow/rocket-arrow with a secondary tube filled with an incendiary or exploding mixture which can explode either in-flight or in the target. One of the common ingredients in Chinese gunpowder mixtures for firearrows/firelances involved mixing in some powdered Arsenic trioxide (White Arsenic), which is a scary thought.
Great ideas, but mostly not legal here
Would be useful as scatter artillery
Seems like it'd be really effective if only you could convince your enemy to hold onto a string beforehand.
The difference between screwing around and doing science is whether or not you measure things and do math.
Beer a rocket fuel for experiments. 😁🤣
9:30
So now someone needs to make one where the arrow shaft has a rocket motor built into it with a tethered friction ignitor inside the motor that can reliably start the rocket motor without the need to light it before its fired. I am imagining something that easily attaches to a bow with a cord or string that has something like a match head on the end that will start to burn when it is quickly pulled out while the arrow is on flight and ignites the motor. It would balance the arrow better and make it easier to use. The notch for the bowstring could be made to fall off along with the ignitor as it is pulled out of the motor to ignite it allowing the thrust to be unobstructed. Or you could even make slanted ports on the end of the arrow right before the notch to induse more spin like they did on the gyrojet gun way back in the day. With modern materials I think this could be done.
Match Head is a much later invention 18/19th century I think
@@podgem-l4t yes I am aware, I am talking about something created with modern materials and technology. I am just curious as to exactly how effective a modern take on this would work compared to the way it would have been done back then.
If they were shot at a cavallery charge, would the rockets have scared the horses and halted the attac?
...didn't expect RPAs...
Only reason I could see for something like this, is if you REALLY need volley fire and you dont really have an army...
Here we go: no safety catch
Accuracy test!!!
joepie !!!! meer !!!!🤣🤣🤣
"There is no evidence that this was ever done..."
"Haha, obviously, it's a rocket on an arrow! But you're allowed to have a bit of fun messing around with made-up stuff, Tod."
"...in western Europe. But they did do it out in the East."
"WHAT."
Look up 'nest of bees', old Chinese weapon
He was testing a European crossbow (with rockets) against European plate armour, there is no evidence that ever happened. My limited understanding is that plate armour wasn't really adopted in China.
Ok, so I'm not a knight: I wasn't trained to be a knight or do any knight things. Because of that, I don't necessarily know how I would react to things if I were a knight. That said, I can't help but feel that if I were a knight and someone shot a bolt at me, which stuck in my breastplate, even if it caused me no harm, I, knowing what I ought to expect from my armor, would poop right in my pants.
What we do know is that they fired arrows from early canons and powder. Was that fast enough to defeat armour before moving to lead shot and improved canons?
Not sure why they did this, perhaps it was just familiarity with another missile weapon, but yes a giant iron arrow would have done the job
The psychological impact of suddenly doubling, or even tripling your range and taking down enemy ranks that are convinced they can't be reached is insane. It might even be enough to break their morale entirely.
You’re probably not gonna be taking down ranks simply because you’re gonna be hard pressed to hit anything. Like he said, they’d be wildly inaccurate, so you’re much more likely to hit the ground, or send them sailing over their heads.
More like „dead in the air“. 😉
Fun, though.
OK now do a rocket fire arrow.
i have a feeling that their rocket motors wouldnt deliver as much thrust in such a small package as a modern one. so less thrust with more weight and drag is going to change the numbers quite drastically
Bear in mind that Todd's hypothetical '15th century bunch of bored drunk engineers' are extremely well travelled and well read, they would be aware of Eastern rocket motors, which had been in development for centuries, and are not dissimilar to modern fireworks
I agree they are almost certainly not going to be as efficient, but this is the best I can do, but you are right the actual numbers would likely be less and I overlooked this - sorry
@@tods_workshop its still a valid test and looks fun :)
its just another reason why it may not have been used (as far as we know).
What if you put a bigger rocket on a plumbata?
I feel like a bolt rocket would be better than a rocket arrow
Numbers are crazy indeed, but it seems to me that mass added due to the whole rocket system doesn't really help much with penetration... Ordinary arrow reaching 350J should really penetrate much further.
mass is mass.....