The fact that the 2-cycle of Deathgrip and Lifeforce exists implies that a 2-cycle of black-blast and green-blast could fit into the color pie. The only question is would they be worth playing in enough formats? red/blue blast see play because of the blue half of that pair is useful against over half the decks in the oldest formats. Would green/black fit somewhere in the meta?
@@Fyrefrye With Lands, 4c Bant, Mono Black 2-Card Monty/Karn and Pox decks becoming fairly popular, I could see them being played. The green one would IMMEDIATELY see play in 4/5C Control to be able to nail the Reanimator and Epic Storm matchups which can be problematic for them. I think giving those colours counters is a problem. We see how good Veil is. The big parts of REB, BEB, P Blast, and H Blast are the ability to destroy on-board permanents as well, and giving Black and Green the ability to kill stuff for one mana on the board is really strong.
@@DarkestFiction Question. If making them exact copies of REB/BEB is too strong, would a tuned down version be fine? One that only counters or only destroys spells/permanents of the other color? Or does that take it from overpowered to unplayably bad?
@@Fyrefrye Honestly, I don't know if it would make them bad, but it would take them down from being on the level of ubiquity that BEB/REB have. They would be interesting design space. They would have to be put into supplemental sets, though, and I hate those lol I think that it's breaking the pie chart a little too much to give us those kinds of cards. I think it might be worth creating a proxy version to see if you think it would be good, and test it out with friends.
Next iteration: Jund Land Destruction with Ice Storm, Avalanche Rider, and Sinkhole. Drop in a Crumble to Dust or two and Surgical Extraction to remove their chances at drawing lands too.
@@constancebashford2324 Most people play mostly non basics and Crumble To Dust only hits non basics. When you get to hit basics with Rider, Ice, and Sinkhole, on top of most decks run very few basics to begin with, you don't really need to try find a way to extract them all anyway. Surgical also doubles as a MB hate card for some of those broken combo decks that this deck struggled against. Having them in g1 isn't exactly a priority since you don't know what you're facing anyway.
I remember the Jund ponza deck in my old Shandalar game, 4x Strip Mine 4x Sinkhole 4x Ice Storm 4x Stone Rain... and 4x Contract From Below, for good measure. Good times.
6:11 I think the magic gods have a secret law that if you ever play a land destruction deck, you will get manascrewed. I swear, every time I see a video with land destruction, the pilot can't make their land drops lol
RG Land Destruction with Stone Rain, Ice Storm, and mana dorks plus Kird Ape for the beats was one of the first Magic decks I ever built when I was a kid. As soon I saw Ice Storm in the picture, I got so happy. Nostalgia!
As a Premodern lover, a format that includes something like 90% of all the Stone Rains in MTG history, I could have told you that building around Avalanche Riders is tough. Ponza is an archetype in Premodern but only tier 2 at best. You have to battle against things like Stiflenought which operates on only 2 lands and Land Tax which undoes all your hard land destruction work. And those challenges are only amplified in Legacy. I think if I were to try Avalanche Riders in Legacy I would either try it in a Red Prison shell with Riders and Pillage over Moon effects or RW Death & Taxes.
I know you said you may have leaned too far into the LD, but I’d probably say not enough. Need to lean more into the prison side of LD with Trinisphere and more stone rain. The other option is to lean into a combo control version. Go Mardu with Ephemerate and Undying. Then include the incarnations. Gives you access to sinkhole, dark ritual, and oppo agent. Scratch that, just go Rakdos with it. 4 D Rit, 4 Sinkhole, 3 3-ball, 4 oppo, 2 stone rain, 3 spirit guide, 3 grief, 2 fury, 3 undying, 2 Av riders… I need to stop😅 got me excited about one of my favorite archetypes. Top 8’d a states way back when with LD.
Nothing is better than Liquimetal Coating with Splinter. Exiles EVERY land from everywhere of that same type... even out of the library, hand, and graveyard. 1 or 2 color decks are especially in an auto-lose situation.
@@Dracomandriuthus Yeah, I mostly agree, though even against 3 to 4 color decks, I just start targeting their control colors that they need to interact with me, or their green if they're using it to fix their other mana, and even combo decks I'll just target their combo color so they'll struggle to cast the cards they need. It's a lot more viable than you'd think. 😄
I was questioning the lack of Maze of Ith at the beginning of the video, because it feels like you lose to a single resolved threat when your hand is full of lands. I think that last match was still a brutal uphill one due to the probably shuffled away Wastelands delver had. Instead they focused on hitting mana producing lands.
Fun idea, but I think this deck forgets that after you disrupt them for a bit with stone rains, you do have to actually kill them. I think this deck needs something like 3 - 4 Minsc and Boo, or the Depths combo. Ephemerate is cute but can probably be cut. The deck probably also doesn't need 7 spot removals in the main. That's great for control decks that are guaranteed to win the long game, but this deck is guaranteed to lose the long game hence is needs threats and not that many answers.
Match 1 game 2, wasteland your own flagstones to reduce the land count in your deck. If you're that desperate for removal you need to take concessions like that, imo. With your play style, you often don't fetch until you can reap the rewards of a cantrip. But there is benefit to thinning your deck of lands and fetching immediately in some scenarios.
Come on Wizards! Just admit that Murktide was a mistake already. A 2 mana 8/8 flyer is too strong. And yes, it is 2 mana virtually all the time. Delve isn't a downside when so many other cards use putting cards in your graveyard AS a downside to pay for other strong effects. I thought we learned this with Treasure Cruise, Dig Through Time, and Gurmag Angler (though at least the common rarity one is at least somewhat balanced...). You already admitted the bigger mistake of Hogaak, but can we kill the dragon yet?
I loved the Limited Resources / Avalanche Riders video so I was super excited to see take two here! Tough luck on the league results sadly. =( And I don't think you ever had an Ephemerate in hand after mulligans, so it's hard to evaluate whether that card was good here or not.
Next step maybe try abzan for sinkhole? Could give you some deck space to run oppo in there too. Could be an interesting testbed to see if Assassin's Trophy is worth to run again in legacy.
I would play that getton that destroys all non basics and let's you fetch out your basics bc u got ranamp u can force them to a no land point in legacy then they are totally under waste lock
Land destruction in a format where decks are designed to play extremely close to the ground is a tough sell, but this league was extra rough. It was mostly a showcase of “Legacy decks that don’t need many, if any, lands.” 😭 Except for the match where your land destruction was Wasteland and they aggressively fetched basics. I think you either need to go deeper on the land destruction or reduce back to just the Wasteland tutoring/recursion that is common to Knight of the Reliquary decks. The issue is that the format is already built to handle a little land destruction, so getting one or maybe two extra effects per game doesn’t necessarily do much, at least not unless you drew them early. Legacy Lando may need Chalice or Trinisphere or Ghostly Prison to make the land destruction matter against decks that can put down so much pressure before you run them out of usable mana.
To talk more conceptually, Lando is a “critical mass” strategy. You are trading spells for enemy lands with the assumption that this will preemptively also trade for your opponent’s spells in hand. (The difference between this and discard is that if you do it right, you trade a few spells for all their spells in hand AND their next several draws.) To do this, you have to be able to quickly and consistently destroy enough lands to hobble their spellcasting or you’ve actually done pretty close to nothing at all. In a format filled with rituals, artifact mana, spirit guides, AND 3-power creatures for 1 mana, this is a difficult task. Against the format at large, you need Chalice, Trinisphere, sweepers, and/or a threat that kills both through most 0-1-2-mana plays AND faster than them. And Murktide is a 2-mana play. And many decks in present Legacy are designed to generate 3-4 mana on a single turn with only one land (usually Ancient Tomb).
This is part 2 of a deck that was much lighter on land destruction and actually played alright. This was the conceptual next step of pushing that angle.
@@BoshNRoll Pushing which angle, though? Conceptually, I think, the only major change from the previous deck is swapping Limited Resources (bad Trinisphere, though it hurts me to say it) for Prismatic Ending. Mwonvuli Acid-Moss was upgraded to Ice Storm, since the ramp is not important without trying to form a lock with Limited Resources. This deck has 4 land destruction spells it can cast on T2, plus 4 Wastelands that also work but make it harder to get up to Avalanche Riders, plus the 3 Avalanche Riders themselves. In the long game, you can use Reclaimer/Knight to spin up Wastelands and Ramunap to recur them, and you can use GSZ to find them or Acidic Slime, but until then, you have to hope that your hand lines up, with Swords/Ending against creature decks and ramp into land destruction against other decks. And even then, you have to also find a way to close the game before your opponent draws lands to resume playing.
The bird isn't protected because of the revealed Sudden Edict in their hand, it's going to be dead whether or not you evoke Endurance. So it's not a question of protecting the bird but a question of whether you want to trade 2 cards for the Sudden Edict for 0 mana now, or trade 1 card for Sudden Edict for 3 mana later on.
Fuckin TonyScapone and his Epic Bullshit builds. I love them all because they're all just some dumb stuff. It's just things he creates are monsters that shouldn't work, but somehow do.
Why dont you play pillage instead of the green sorcery that only destroy one land? Im curious if there is a way to addapt the gruul ponza to legacy, i think that woulde a better performance
This is a green white deck with a small red splash. Casting a 1RR card requires significant deck shifting. It’s a good card, just not what’s happening here.
I think chasm is better if you're mega behind, and also hoses some things like storm/ant. Tabernacle can be bad if they're already ahead in aggressive matches (elves can pay for it, delver can still play well on low resources). It's overall better for damage prevention because they *can't* do damage as opposed to their choice to be able to. Also, Tabernacle can be bad in this deck especially since it's got a fair number of creatures, more than some variants of GW depths that don't run a green sun's package with the riders, acid ooze, outland liberator, so it could be hurting more than helping sometimes
Glacial Chasm is a guarenteed way to not take damage, where Tabernacle will allow them to just pay for the best creature, like Goblin Rabblemaster, which makes more creatures that don't have to be paid for.
It can be a little confusing at first but after a while you see the same cards over and over again with just a few wildcards thrown in. I still have to look cards up or pause when he highlights cards to see what they do every once in a while though
Love the channel. Love the tight play and fun deck choices. Coukd do without 5min intros and deck techs. A screenshot of the decklist i can psuse on would do just fine.
@@BoshNRoll fair enough. A lot of the time it starts on adds. You skip to a timestamp it plays adds again. At that point im done tryong to watch it. That isn't your fault by any means, but that the experience that happens over and over and it gets old. Ive unsubbed and resubbed multiple times because of the add barrages
"Black elemental blast" sounds amazing, but Deathgrip is still pretty cool
The fact that the 2-cycle of Deathgrip and Lifeforce exists implies that a 2-cycle of black-blast and green-blast could fit into the color pie. The only question is would they be worth playing in enough formats? red/blue blast see play because of the blue half of that pair is useful against over half the decks in the oldest formats. Would green/black fit somewhere in the meta?
@@Fyrefrye With Lands, 4c Bant, Mono Black 2-Card Monty/Karn and Pox decks becoming fairly popular, I could see them being played. The green one would IMMEDIATELY see play in 4/5C Control to be able to nail the Reanimator and Epic Storm matchups which can be problematic for them. I think giving those colours counters is a problem. We see how good Veil is. The big parts of REB, BEB, P Blast, and H Blast are the ability to destroy on-board permanents as well, and giving Black and Green the ability to kill stuff for one mana on the board is really strong.
@@DarkestFiction Question. If making them exact copies of REB/BEB is too strong, would a tuned down version be fine? One that only counters or only destroys spells/permanents of the other color? Or does that take it from overpowered to unplayably bad?
@@Fyrefrye Honestly, I don't know if it would make them bad, but it would take them down from being on the level of ubiquity that BEB/REB have. They would be interesting design space. They would have to be put into supplemental sets, though, and I hate those lol I think that it's breaking the pie chart a little too much to give us those kinds of cards. I think it might be worth creating a proxy version to see if you think it would be good, and test it out with friends.
Holy crap; what a cursed league. Condolences on the rough draws!
Next iteration: Jund Land Destruction with Ice Storm, Avalanche Rider, and Sinkhole. Drop in a Crumble to Dust or two and Surgical Extraction to remove their chances at drawing lands too.
Just remember: surgical states "other than a basic land card"
@@constancebashford2324 The Stone Brain can extract basic lands. 😈
@@constancebashford2324 Most people play mostly non basics and Crumble To Dust only hits non basics. When you get to hit basics with Rider, Ice, and Sinkhole, on top of most decks run very few basics to begin with, you don't really need to try find a way to extract them all anyway.
Surgical also doubles as a MB hate card for some of those broken combo decks that this deck struggled against. Having them in g1 isn't exactly a priority since you don't know what you're facing anyway.
I remember the Jund ponza deck in my old Shandalar game, 4x Strip Mine 4x Sinkhole 4x Ice Storm 4x Stone Rain... and 4x Contract From Below, for good measure. Good times.
6:11 I think the magic gods have a secret law that if you ever play a land destruction deck, you will get manascrewed. I swear, every time I see a video with land destruction, the pilot can't make their land drops lol
TonyScapone had the ultimate tech, played around us being a land destruction deck like a boss..
thanks for the content Bosh! We will ride next time
47:35 This is the reason Phil keeps asking for a Murktide ban more than an EI ban.
The artwork on Ice Storm is SICK! 😮❤
RG Land Destruction with Stone Rain, Ice Storm, and mana dorks plus Kird Ape for the beats was one of the first Magic decks I ever built when I was a kid. As soon I saw Ice Storm in the picture, I got so happy. Nostalgia!
As a Premodern lover, a format that includes something like 90% of all the Stone Rains in MTG history, I could have told you that building around Avalanche Riders is tough. Ponza is an archetype in Premodern but only tier 2 at best. You have to battle against things like Stiflenought which operates on only 2 lands and Land Tax which undoes all your hard land destruction work. And those challenges are only amplified in Legacy.
I think if I were to try Avalanche Riders in Legacy I would either try it in a Red Prison shell with Riders and Pillage over Moon effects or RW Death & Taxes.
I know you said you may have leaned too far into the LD, but I’d probably say not enough. Need to lean more into the prison side of LD with Trinisphere and more stone rain. The other option is to lean into a combo control version. Go Mardu with Ephemerate and Undying. Then include the incarnations. Gives you access to sinkhole, dark ritual, and oppo agent. Scratch that, just go Rakdos with it. 4 D Rit, 4 Sinkhole, 3 3-ball, 4 oppo, 2 stone rain, 3 spirit guide, 3 grief, 2 fury, 3 undying, 2 Av riders… I need to stop😅 got me excited about one of my favorite archetypes. Top 8’d a states way back when with LD.
Love it, sounds disgusting
You win the moral victory in Round 5 though because your opponent has the bad Delver art
Every time I see avalanche riders in the thumbnail I hit subscribe 3 times
36:45 - never would have guessed that Caves of Chaos Adventurer would be legacy playable
The only thing I would worry about it affinity using those indestructible lands. 🤔 use a shadow spear to hose em? 😂
Nothing is better than Liquimetal Coating with Splinter. Exiles EVERY land from everywhere of that same type... even out of the library, hand, and graveyard. 1 or 2 color decks are especially in an auto-lose situation.
Brutal against monocolor, but rough against 3 or 4 color
@@Dracomandriuthus Yeah, I mostly agree, though even against 3 to 4 color decks, I just start targeting their control colors that they need to interact with me, or their green if they're using it to fix their other mana, and even combo decks I'll just target their combo color so they'll struggle to cast the cards they need. It's a lot more viable than you'd think. 😄
I was questioning the lack of Maze of Ith at the beginning of the video, because it feels like you lose to a single resolved threat when your hand is full of lands.
I think that last match was still a brutal uphill one due to the probably shuffled away Wastelands delver had. Instead they focused on hitting mana producing lands.
Ice Storm! Love to see it. It's almost playable in Unlimited40 so anxious to see how it does in legacy.
Gotta love the epic burp or epic belch or whatever you wanna call it
Fun idea, but I think this deck forgets that after you disrupt them for a bit with stone rains, you do have to actually kill them.
I think this deck needs something like 3 - 4 Minsc and Boo, or the Depths combo. Ephemerate is cute but can probably be cut. The deck probably also doesn't need 7 spot removals in the main. That's great for control decks that are guaranteed to win the long game, but this deck is guaranteed to lose the long game hence is needs threats and not that many answers.
That was one tough league!
Don't you think a land destruction deck should have Trinisphere in it?
Reason for the season and we only rocking 3 avalanche riders !!!! Booooooo boooo hahah. 🥰 land destruction and pox. Sign me up
Match 1 game 2, wasteland your own flagstones to reduce the land count in your deck. If you're that desperate for removal you need to take concessions like that, imo.
With your play style, you often don't fetch until you can reap the rewards of a cantrip. But there is benefit to thinning your deck of lands and fetching immediately in some scenarios.
Come on Wizards! Just admit that Murktide was a mistake already. A 2 mana 8/8 flyer is too strong. And yes, it is 2 mana virtually all the time. Delve isn't a downside when so many other cards use putting cards in your graveyard AS a downside to pay for other strong effects. I thought we learned this with Treasure Cruise, Dig Through Time, and Gurmag Angler (though at least the common rarity one is at least somewhat balanced...). You already admitted the bigger mistake of Hogaak, but can we kill the dragon yet?
I was your rd 4 opponent and I feel bad contributing to this cursed league lol, sweet deck though!!
Before watching, I bet Armageddon is next. Love it
I loved the Limited Resources / Avalanche Riders video so I was super excited to see take two here! Tough luck on the league results sadly. =( And I don't think you ever had an Ephemerate in hand after mulligans, so it's hard to evaluate whether that card was good here or not.
Clearly Limited Resources was the glue holding this deck together! /s
I always wanted to try snapcaster mage with sinkhole or small pox
Awesome video!
Next step maybe try abzan for sinkhole? Could give you some deck space to run oppo in there too. Could be an interesting testbed to see if Assassin's Trophy is worth to run again in legacy.
MORR AVALANCHE RIDERS!!!! RIDE!!!!!!
Obligatory algorithmic contribution
Feels like this kinda thing would really want some Sylvan Library.
No RKF Pillage? Opportunity missed.
Sweet deck though.
I wanted Pillage but red is the splash color. 🤷🏻♂️
darn you tony scar pony!
Sorry for the rough luck but I lost it at “I am literally The Joker.” 😂
Bosh + Spice = ♥️
I really hope I get to hear Brian say "Riiiiide" several times lol
That belcher list looks nuts
I really wanted this to work
Black elemental blast? you mean Deathgrip?
Bae love noodle farm
I feel like ephemerate is way too win more, limited to only working with a resolved 4 drop when you have extra mana and unlikely to ever work
I would play that getton that destroys all non basics and let's you fetch out your basics bc u got ranamp u can force them to a no land point in legacy then they are totally under waste lock
I would also up your basic count if that was the case lol 😆 it would insulate u against moon
Sad to see the way this league panned out. I like the ideas in this deck.
First game, is there a reason why you didn't endurance when they went for the snap eliminate line?
Kind of think Ice storm should just be 4 choke to hate on blue decks.
Oh honey bunny
Love ponza! ❤
At what point are you just doing temur delver or dimir delver for a superior LD deck. Legacy is just too hyper fast these days.
Land destruction in a format where decks are designed to play extremely close to the ground is a tough sell, but this league was extra rough. It was mostly a showcase of “Legacy decks that don’t need many, if any, lands.” 😭 Except for the match where your land destruction was Wasteland and they aggressively fetched basics.
I think you either need to go deeper on the land destruction or reduce back to just the Wasteland tutoring/recursion that is common to Knight of the Reliquary decks. The issue is that the format is already built to handle a little land destruction, so getting one or maybe two extra effects per game doesn’t necessarily do much, at least not unless you drew them early.
Legacy Lando may need Chalice or Trinisphere or Ghostly Prison to make the land destruction matter against decks that can put down so much pressure before you run them out of usable mana.
To talk more conceptually, Lando is a “critical mass” strategy. You are trading spells for enemy lands with the assumption that this will preemptively also trade for your opponent’s spells in hand. (The difference between this and discard is that if you do it right, you trade a few spells for all their spells in hand AND their next several draws.) To do this, you have to be able to quickly and consistently destroy enough lands to hobble their spellcasting or you’ve actually done pretty close to nothing at all. In a format filled with rituals, artifact mana, spirit guides, AND 3-power creatures for 1 mana, this is a difficult task. Against the format at large, you need Chalice, Trinisphere, sweepers, and/or a threat that kills both through most 0-1-2-mana plays AND faster than them. And Murktide is a 2-mana play. And many decks in present Legacy are designed to generate 3-4 mana on a single turn with only one land (usually Ancient Tomb).
This is part 2 of a deck that was much lighter on land destruction and actually played alright. This was the conceptual next step of pushing that angle.
@@BoshNRoll Pushing which angle, though? Conceptually, I think, the only major change from the previous deck is swapping Limited Resources (bad Trinisphere, though it hurts me to say it) for Prismatic Ending. Mwonvuli Acid-Moss was upgraded to Ice Storm, since the ramp is not important without trying to form a lock with Limited Resources.
This deck has 4 land destruction spells it can cast on T2, plus 4 Wastelands that also work but make it harder to get up to Avalanche Riders, plus the 3 Avalanche Riders themselves. In the long game, you can use Reclaimer/Knight to spin up Wastelands and Ramunap to recur them, and you can use GSZ to find them or Acidic Slime, but until then, you have to hope that your hand lines up, with Swords/Ending against creature decks and ramp into land destruction against other decks. And even then, you have to also find a way to close the game before your opponent draws lands to resume playing.
I wanna make Pox Riders now
Not protecting the mana dork with Endurance against flashbacked card in R1G1 was a decision not to reveal cards?
The bird isn't protected because of the revealed Sudden Edict in their hand, it's going to be dead whether or not you evoke Endurance. So it's not a question of protecting the bird but a question of whether you want to trade 2 cards for the Sudden Edict for 0 mana now, or trade 1 card for Sudden Edict for 3 mana later on.
No love for Thermokarst?! lol
1GG is harder than 2G for the same effect. Trust me, I looked at every card that destroys lands for under 5 mana to brew this.
But what about thermokarst?
Riders is so sweet though, you were robbed this league
wizaxk
Fuckin TonyScapone and his Epic Bullshit builds. I love them all because they're all just some dumb stuff. It's just things he creates are monsters that shouldn't work, but somehow do.
This is the kinda bullshit I come here for. As Mario would say, let's a go!
Why dont you play pillage instead of the green sorcery that only destroy one land? Im curious if there is a way to addapt the gruul ponza to legacy, i think that woulde a better performance
This is a green white deck with a small red splash. Casting a 1RR card requires significant deck shifting. It’s a good card, just not what’s happening here.
Why glacial chasm over tabernacle?
I think chasm is better if you're mega behind, and also hoses some things like storm/ant. Tabernacle can be bad if they're already ahead in aggressive matches (elves can pay for it, delver can still play well on low resources). It's overall better for damage prevention because they *can't* do damage as opposed to their choice to be able to. Also, Tabernacle can be bad in this deck especially since it's got a fair number of creatures, more than some variants of GW depths that don't run a green sun's package with the riders, acid ooze, outland liberator, so it could be hurting more than helping sometimes
Glacial Chasm is a guarenteed way to not take damage, where Tabernacle will allow them to just pay for the best creature, like Goblin Rabblemaster, which makes more creatures that don't have to be paid for.
does everyone just know all the cards by memory wtf
It can be a little confusing at first but after a while you see the same cards over and over again with just a few wildcards thrown in. I still have to look cards up or pause when he highlights cards to see what they do every once in a while though
Love the channel. Love the tight play and fun deck choices. Coukd do without 5min intros and deck techs. A screenshot of the decklist i can psuse on would do just fine.
Just skip to round 1. The videos all have chapters. Lots of people watch for the deckbuilding part.
@@BoshNRoll fair enough. A lot of the time it starts on adds. You skip to a timestamp it plays adds again. At that point im done tryong to watch it. That isn't your fault by any means, but that the experience that happens over and over and it gets old. Ive unsubbed and resubbed multiple times because of the add barrages
This is why i quit magic.
Copium