To be completely fair, the site is called Board Game Geek, not Occasional Board Gamer. That said, BGG's rating system does have an irremediable bias towards heavy games, but it's not even really about the site itself. People who don't particularly expect to love a game are much more willing to try it anyway if it's only going to take a half-hour than if it's going to take all night, so lighter games are always going to have more negative ratings mixed in. Also, the way the site converts user scores into GeekScore (near as I can tell, by adding 1000 votes of 5.5 to all games and then making some minor adjustments that seem to slightly penalize KS games) is pretty basic and could certainly be improved. On the other hand, the idea that heavy or long games should be disqualified from being highly ranked because you have to be more into the hobby to appreciate them seems quite wrong to me. Think about other things people have to "get into" to really enjoy; in almost no cases are the things used as introductions really considered the peak of the art, as opposed to something decent that's more accessible in some way (e.g., Einstein using Mantovani to get people into orchestral music). For most things, the idea is that as you gain familiarity and knowledge, you get to experience the more sublime and subtle pleasures of things you wouldn't have enjoyed or even really understood before. And while it's certainly true that connoisseurship can veer into snobbery and inauthentic praise, that's an argument for not caring what other people think, not an argument against connoisseurship itself.
I played Brass Birmingham for the first time earlier today. I haven't played a lot of top games but from roughly 200 games that I have played so far I can comfortable say that Brass Birmingham is the best. The ruleset and actions are simple yet the game is so deep. Full of difficult decisions that rewards careful planning
While I don't necessarily disagree with your criticism of the BGG ratings I don't see an easy way of changing things as everyone's idea of what should be a top ten/top 100 game will be highly subjective. It's also worth considering that BGG *is* a niche site for hardcore gamers for the most part (literally no one who I know, including several who play quite a few games, have ever heard of it). To illustrate that, Wingspan has 75k ratings with well over 1 million copies sold, so 95% of people who have bought it haven't rated it. I view the BGG ratings as being a bit like the IMDb top 250 films list. It may pop onto my radar games that I wasn't aware of, but in no way is it a guarantee that I'll like it. Looking at the current top 100 I either own or have previously owned 34, I won't ever play 37, leaving 29 that I would consider playing/buying. Gloomhaven wouldn't come near my top 1000, much less the top 100, but clearly I'm not the target demographic for it. On the other hand Brass: Birmingham is currently my #2 game of all time and when I hear your criticisms of it I wonder whether we're talking about the same game - I'm sure Gloomhaven fans would think the same about me when I pass my opinion on it. I also think the obsession with the top 100 is overblown. There are over 20k games listed on the site so if something is in the top 2k it's in the top 10% of all games. This is where the list comes into its own. Dig into the murky depths of the top 2k (or even the top 10k) and you can find some real gems (Steam Donkey at 6,356 is a delightful little game, Arkwright: The Card Game is outside the top 3,000 and Strasbourg doesn't make the top 1,000). I have many gripes with BGG, but the ratings are low on that list. As a database and resource it's excellent.
For fear of repeating myself from other videos, I always thought sorting by number of ratings (Caracassonne is number 1 and TTR is in the top 10) or number of plays is much more insightful.
Indeed - a niche hobbyist game will pale in comparison in that respect. And I hate that people have bought new gamers stuff like Gloomhaven believing it's the #1 of all time when that gamer clearly can't handle it.
I think the whole Brass/Gloomhaven thing has done a lot to get people to reassess how they look at BGG ratings and perhaps not to get so worked up about the whole thing. Although, having seen Gloomhaven drop down to 3 since, that may be wishful thinking. Also good to hear your candid comments about your feelings around V-Day, it's not something that's ever bothered me, single or not, but I get why the atmosphere around the day could play on one's mind. It's tough to open up about things, so fair play to you for doing so
2 things. the "same game" thing I super agree with. I think there should be a "family" system like how GMT does it. where families of games are grouped together and only the highest scoring of the games is rated for the family, this is so a good game cant is bogged down by a bunch of bad games in the same family. so with brass, Birmingham, and Lancashire and the original will be in the same family and the games will be rated separately. but for bgg ranking, they will be put into the same family and Birmingham will be representing the family because it is the highest rated. also, I have heard the bgg ranking system using a bayesian average(Shelfside has a good video about it) but basically, the rating is the average of the normal voted average with fake votes of the average rating someone can give(5.5). this number affects how many votes affect the rating. so if there are 2 games 1 with 1,000 votes all 10s and a 2nd game with 10,000 votes all with 9s, the 2nd game will be ranked higher because there are more people to skew away from the 5.5 fake votes on average. Continuing with my point, the amount of fake votes is around the number of users on the website, so I think that should be changed to the number of sales that a game has gotten to get a more precise number of fake votes. 3 small notes: I liked brass Birmingham way more than other games people love, for example, I just don't understand why people like everdell and scythe so much. everdall I can see near the 60s at best in rating and scythe should be near the 300s. war of the ring does deserve to be in the top 10 if not top 5. undaunted stalingrad(undaunted family) and stone age deserve to be in the top 100.
My top 10 - in no particular order - taking into account various factors: Gameplay fun / quality How many people it has introduced to gaming How easy it is to actually get to the table Replayabilty The likelihood people will still be playing it in 5 years The impact it has had (ie. How much it is talked about and respected, or how much it is a leader in its field) Ticket to Ride Carcassonne Splendor 7 Wonders / 7 wonders Duel Agricola Clank Heat: Pedal to the Metal Zombicide Wingspan Spirit Island
Interesting, Clank and Zombicide I think would be hard to justify alongside Spirit Island. I could see a case for 7 Wonders, Splendor, Carcassonne (even though I don't see it played/mentioned much any more) and certainly TTR.
@The Broken Meeple Spirit Island I felt just because so original and still unique (and extremely popular). Similarly, Zombicide I would see as the leader or at least best known in its sphere. Clank I saw as the clear weak link here, but I struggled to come up with a tenth!
I have never trusted BBG ratings. The problem is something like Ticket To Ride is played by a wide range of gamers so gets a wide range of results. Where as Brass Birmingham is played by only heavy gamers that are predisposed to like the game. Also people who have spent fortunes on a game (normally through Kickstarter) rate that game higher than they would as they feel like they need to justify the outlay.
The KS point is spot on, everyone who backs a KS will naturally inflate their rating unless they are willing to overlook that initial cost, which many will not.
From my understanding, it's common in Q1 to have reduced views and revenue, tax season is normally blamed. For the BGG rankings, I agree on your points. I'd suggest a weighted system that degrades over time. For example, you rate a game a 10 and lock in your rating. This gives the game 100 points or whatever. After a year(or another time variation*), those points get cut in half automatically in the system. The weight can be reset by re-rating the game after a year* when it becomes unlocked. This way, if you love a game, you will be more likely to re-rate it, and ignore the ones you haven't played or rate lower after the newness wears off or opinions change. Problems is the list would change drastically all the time, especially after the first cycle. But this system would reflect a more accurate bias on what is being played and what has wide appeal. Ticket to Ride and Azul would be in the top 10 all the time because they are always played and have wide appeal. Games like Spirit Island, Wingspan, Root, and Gloomhaven would also be in the top 10 often due to their high replayability and fanbases. No game is perfect, but some games may be perfect to some person, and this system would reflect on which games are perfect to the most people at any given time. I think any system would suffer from what you mentioned about spoof accounts, and review bombing has been an issue in every industry.
Yeah woe betide you have an opinion against the status quo these days. I've had enough bad dealings with trolls or games or fans of other channels before.
Super enjoyed the 7 Wonders expansions video, and the Abyss one. I’ve had 7 wonders second edition with Leaders expansion for ages and still haven’t played it (played 7 wonders duel to death) and it got me excited to actually get it to the table. Appreciate the work!
Thoughts on BGG: 1. I agree that duplicates or previous editions basically the same should be in one entry 2. I think it’s lame that games can be rated before they’re available. 3. BGG is a hobbyist/geek site and therefore more casual lighter games don’t make sense to be up at the top just based on who is visiting the site. 4. Red raven games are all underrated
Looking forward to the new Cyclades! Haven't played it in years. (I recall my geek of a wife made Xena character cards for it😆). Yeah, might dig that out of the vault (older board games storage closet) for a play soon. BTW, you made some solid points about BGG.
It seems like a weird argument to criticize the BGG rating system because some games are/aren't on the list. The system isn't designed to rank games based on impact, weight, accessibility, popularity, etc. It's simply a representation of user-generated votes based primarily on their rating and weighted partially by number of votes. So of course it isn't going to be representative of the hobby as a whole - it'll instead be representative of how people *who use the site and rate games on it* vote. Understanding that limitation/caveat is key to interpreting the results and determining how much credence to give the rankings. As such I think it's highly arrogant to claim that any individual game "deserves" to be in the top 10 or 100. You're basically saying your own opinion matters more than tens of thousands of people's actual votes, which is quite invalidating. The way to "fix" the BGG ranking system is to make the ratings more representative of everyone who actually plays the games. This would involve increased awareness of BGG, discouraging troll voting designed to unduly impact the rankings, and exercising caution in interpreting the rankings via increased education/understanding of the limitations inherent to virtually any self-selected review/rating system (i.e., that they are not generalizable beyond the types of individuals who engaged with the rating system, and thus their external validity linearly improves as a function of what proportion of individuals who play the games provide a rating).
The fact it's a user generated vote system only voted on by a niche group that is one sided in their typical gaming views is the whole issue. Yes I get that's what it's representative of, doesn't mean I have to like it or think it's not a broken system. Is there an easy solution? No likely not. Honestly I'd rather they scrapped the whole rating system and just kept it as a database and discussion forum - remove the need for ranking.
@@TheBrokenMeeple That's fair. I guess my point is this is a systematic problem with essentially any rating system that doesn't get nearly 100% engagement. So while the information is skewed, the ratings still provide some information and facilitate discussion - and scrapping ratings entirely takes that away.
Not sure why you are so upset by BGG rankings. A niche hobby. Website used by a small amount of "board gamers". No surprise it skews heavy. Just because you don't like a game why would it be upsetting that others have rated it higher than what you think? You can have problems with the algorithm fine. What would be better? I don't know what algorithm could be employed to make ticket to ride the best game when you look at ranking? You would have to purposely ignore ratings and skew towards lighter games. Then we have a group of board gamers use a website that purposely adjusts rankings away from the preferred type of game. Sounds like you want BGG to do have an outcome you want rather than ask for a ranking system and seeing what the games at the end of it are.
@@thomassawicki6103 why should a game rated a 10 by me and not rerated but a game rated by you a 10 and rated every year be worth different? That just means that BGG becomes weighed towards the superusers of the site that rerate games. And what of negative ratings? What if I renew a 1 rating every year to rate down a game I hate because I was annoyed by a Kickstarter being late? WHy should that matter more than the person who one time only decided to rate the game an 8?
My feeling on Root (and Oath to an even greater degree) is that it's a lot more interesting to think about than to actually play. Also, chameleons don't change color as often as Jane Austen characters. Every third sentence in Pride and Prejudice mentions someone blushing or turning pale.
Luke - you and I aren't aligned on everything, but ohh my I am right with you on Brass. My dislike circles around to a fundamental misunderstanding of what people see in the game. I'm glad for anyone who does love it or any board game really. The good thing is I don't care what the ratings are for it. The BGG top are one of the least effective ways to discover new games. Looking forward to trying Hegemony! BGG Ratings: I feel they need more ways to customize and aggregate ratings based. The best method would be to analyze what you rate then give the top games others who have rated similar to yours. I'd want to see a sort of avg weight of ratings so you can filter to users who rate hugger mostly 2, 3, or 4 weight games. Also limit filters to see ranking only by those who have done 10 or less ratings, vs 100, or ones who leave comments and ones who don't. Or separate out rankings by verified content creators. Basically give options to let us crunch in ways other than their black box. There is no system that makes the most sense for everyone. Really there should be no universal top list - we all have very different tastes and the only value these lists should have is for discovery of new games (which in its current form is pretty bad)
I like a rant! Your argument is not without its flaws but I prefer your honest views to those of a number of creators who are cheer leaders rather than folk who might occasionally say a game is sub standard!!!
I think BGG should have expansions as a subsection of the original game and they should also categorize games by a manufacturer rating of its weight (Gateway/Medium/Heavy).
I generally agree with you, although decrypto is played a lot in my country, the real question is what makes a game the greatest of all time, popularity?,sales?,originality?, for example glenffiditch is the most consumed whisky in the world, does that make it automatically the best whisky in the world? At the end there are multiple factors and the best game just like with the whisky is the one YOU like the most, it maybe the number 100 for other people and that does not matter
Totally agree on Decrypto being overrated. I organize a word games meetup, got it when it came out, gave it away after about a dozen plays, and hope to never see it again. Word games for teams that are better than Decrypto include Codenames, Word Slam, Word on the Street, and Taboo. Scrabble with its many tournaments yet kitchen-table playable is the greatest word game of all time and should be in the top ten, but it's not a gamer's game. Great word games for gamers are Hardback, So Clover, and Letter Jam. Agree on Ticket to Ride (I have 14 maps) and Splendor being underrated. I don't like Pandemic very much but I respect it, will play it to go along, and understand why it should be rated high. Best wishes for your health and happiness.
BGG is a hobbiest site. The highly ranked games are going to be the ones that hobbiests' enjoy. It's not the highest sales or the most accessible games. It's not the games with the broadest appeal. In fact, it's almost the inverse of that. The games keep away the people that'd give them middling reviews while catering to a niche audience to rise to the top. I don't know for sure what I'd put as the best games of all time. But, I know that none of the BGG Top 10 would be on it. Ticket to Ride wouldn't be on it. Magic: The Gathering might be in the top spot. It's not only the shift the game created, but modern board games borrow heavily from the design. It's one of the giants that modern board games are standing on the shoulders of. And, I would likely approach any Top Games of All Time list from that perspective. What games truly had an impact on the hobby? Not simply popular with the casuals or derivative complexity for the hobbiests.
Totally fine with MTG being up there, but TTR needs to be up there as well. MTG isn't a casual game at all, it's fully hobbyist, but it deserves much more recognition on the Top 10 then Gloomhaven or Brass by miles.
What about Wingspan? It sold a ton. Also, not to name the names, but what about old euro games with ugly covers that you don't like: do they deserve to be in a top10? They are old, but still selling. I like weight rating. I know that it's a bit wacky, but when I find a new game for me that's one of the starting points. If weight is >3.5 do I really have people to play it with? If weight is around 2 then most likely I can play it with my family. Based on that, should I investigate more i.e. watch a review or two? If it's
A game weight can be determined by one person though - if a game's weight has been barely rated, then it can skew heavily. Wingspan could well be a Top 10 potential. Love or hate it, like you said, it's sold constantly, it's an Evergreen, it's accessible to many gamers, not all, but many, it has a palettable relatable theme and not coal mining or generic fantasy - I'd certainly put it up there. Maybe I do need to do that Top 10 Games That Should be on BGG list. . . .
I was thinking about your question a lot and... Based on which country do you want to make top10 or top100 for that matter? Distribution is different in each country and popularity of the game in that country depends on distribution. I bet you never heard of the most popular game in my country. It beats Monopoly by a mile on any criterion you can think of: sales, total plays. And yes, it's a party game - Alias (1990). There are at least 3 different versions in every supermarket. Third place would go to Uno. Fourth place will go to Jenga knock-offs, because original is too expensive. Fifth place probably will go to similar game to "One night werewolf", however I couldn't find version that is sold here on BGG. As for what actually should be in top10: Dixit, Carcassone, Kingdomino, Everdell seems like good contenders. What about chess, checkers and go? Are they too cool to be in top100?
Oh, man... Sorry, I get that you're upset with the system, but your logic is extremely flawed here. Do people put way too much emphasis on BGG rank? Sure, no doubt! But here you go putting too much emphasis on BGG rank as well. See the contradiction? It's not like it's "objective" or anything. It's a popularity contest between games loved by board game GEEKS, hence website name. Is your hate towards Brass or love towards Ark Nova "objective"? Of course it's not, and it can't be. I dislike some games from BGG top, but strongly think that everything there deserves attention for one reason or another, even ones I hate. There are no random entries there. It's a list of games website audience (dedicated gamers) consider great, not a definitive list of "best games of all time for everyone". And when you try to see it as anything other than what it is, you have a problem in judgement, love it or hate it. Fight for top-1 spot and review bombings are very stupid of course, but can occure EVERYWHERE with a rating system, see rotten tomatoes and metacritic. No game "deserves" any spot. Maybe if you gather independent committee of professionals with strictly defined criteria, but who needs that? What criteria is more important: copies sold or clever design or miniature size? How can you measure amount of enjoyment? I think TTR is kinda boring, but who should even care what I think? By the way, you can sort BGG top by "Num Voters", and have Carcassonne, CATAN, Pandemic and Ticket to Ride all in top 10.
I think we have to agree to disagree, but I get where you're coming from. However if you can't talk about the rating system to dispute what's wrong with it, then how can you possibly argue against it. Same would apply for any topic, if emphasing the subject matter in an argument negates the argument.
(says sarcastically): copies sold period.. everyone talks about the top movies by revenue - an extremely flawed stat to be sure… video games can go by copies sold. so why not boardgames. So your game is hot but it’s only played by 3 people. ( end sarcasm). BGG rankings attempts to do that ( see shelfside analyses of bgg rankings ). Seriously there is no one good system, every measure has flaws but the measure should change with the times and incorporate more data rather than a simple popularity contest among niche audience. And BGG is no longer for so called “Geeks” it’s now graduated for all. So the argument for saying it’s for geeks is foolish, the industry is growing and reaching mainstream audiences more and more and the rankings need to reflect such
@@victorybhg Is it a niche audience of geeks rating games? Or is BGG "for all"? Anyone that wants to join can. But, the core audience of the site leans towards hobbiests. With a significant chunk of that audience leaning towards Euro games. Thus, the games that rank towards the top are going to be games that members of the site enjoy.
I agree that the rankings are rubbish! The fact that Concordia is only 21 when it should be top 5 minimum is a travesty! Luke: [Head Explodes] 🤣🤣🤣 I just take BGG rankings, etc for what they are. Just another data point to consider and great reference source for the hobby. Cheers!
In defence of Decrypto (and with a whole lot of personal bias) - it’s the best word game out there and so “worthy” in some sense of being well regarded. Although I’d agree that Codenames is much more widely popular and in any meaningful list of top 100 games, it’d have to be the higher placed of the 2 (and the same for Scrabble I guess). But hey, at least Decrypto isn’t yet another heavy euro or wildly expensive KS campaign mega game and it brings some much needed diversity of weight and genre into the list. And not to worry, it’ll soon get bumped out by plenty of games that fit top 100 stereotypes.
The BGG Ratings is indeed just a reference tool. I agree with your take almost entirely. But with your argument one would have to include Chess (I don't like) or Go (my number one game of all time by a mile!). But what about Carcassonne - better than Catan, for me at least. Almost everything you said about Catan is true for Carcassonne as well. But for sure I would not like to see Monopoly on the top 100 either! Still sold and everywhere - but I don't think it is still played at all?? I love your video with this chat about BBG-rating.
Oh Monopoly is still being played believe me. My nephew has a Naruto Monopoly, and when I go to my FLGS I do see some people occasionally have a Monopoly out - it's what they are familar with and they're probably not into modern gaming. We certainly don't tend to associate with those who would simply play Monopoly, but it still sells. They wouldn't keep printing subsets if it didn't.
Weight ratings have another layer of complexity. A person can learn Go or Chess in 30 minutes but study them for a life time. So how should those games be rates? You make a good argument for Ticket to Ride, Pandemic and Splendor to be #1-3. Other games in the top ten might include Carcassone and Sushi Go (both of which you mentioned). Maybe instead of a specific game, there could be generic game - social deduction game (The Resistance, One Night Werewolf etc), worker placement game (Stone Age, Lords of Waterdeep), area control (Hansa Teutonica). Just the games that makes people say - 'oh, yeah, Boardgame night, sure, that's fun. What can I bring?' But how do you really rank those? Anyway, fun rant.
Looking very forward to your two-player lists as well as your review on Obsession. As far as the dip in views, are you sure people understand what "Quick Draw" means when they see it on your videos' titles? I didn't. I wondered if that could have anything to do with it. Finally, I think I've pitched this top ten idea to you before, but for a while I have thought a really fun/interesting topic would be: Top Ten Game BOARDS. That is, the boards specifically. In other words, which boards stand out as the very best in terms of 1) aethetics, 2) functionality, and 3) creativity. You'd do a great job with it too.
Grateful for the ideas, just uncertain how popular they would be. Also I doubt I would remember enough rulebooks to come up with best/worst - i mean maybe they could make podcast topics at some stage.
BGG is a nice database but yes the weight rating and one rating for the entire game is very minimal and does not give a good representation about a game. (Chess is easy to teach, difficult to master.) I would like to give separate ratings for intuitivity of rules, components (artwork and quality), balance, tension and of course fun. Filler games will now not really make the top 100 but these are the little easy fun games that get people into the hobby! We play bohnanza all the time, we can play it with anyone. It has a lot of interaction, everybody likes it. Its not our favorite game but it should be at least in the top 50/75.
I can see your points and there is certainly room for improvement. However I cannot imagine a ranking system that would do Ticket to Ride justice. If mostly gamers gather on a website and rate games, lighter games are going to fall under the table. The "Spiel des Jahres" Award for example is meant to bring new gamers on board, but BGG could never do that. Also I think that most sold should not be the main factor for best game. Personally, I see Quacks being enjoyed by a lot of people and it is good for many sorts of gamers so I would put that one high up. Don't overthink the views on some videos too much. I enjoy watching all of them, but sometimes can't keep up. And I like to hear you talking about a game, even if it's not getting the most views.
I don't even bother with the ranking system on BGG, I know it's biased so I just ignore it. I don't like how some games are merged and come under the versions tab and some are given their own entry. Even though some of the games that get their own entry have a few rule changes and new artwork when others that have the same changes are merged. Reading comments on a game thread it's down to BGG to decide which games get their own entry or are merged, so BGG are biased themselves otherwise it would be the same rule for all games being merged or not. Sadly with far too many people with far too much time on their hands mass rating games, a 1 or 10 using whatever excuses they come up with, people's biases and BGG bias the rating system is worthless and should probably just be scrapped.
I think you hit most of the "Top 10" of all time - TTR should be number 1, but probably Splendor, Wingspan, Azul, Codenames, King of Tokyo, Pictomania, Tsuro - some I like and some I have moved on from but these really are games with mass appeal that will bring and have brought people into the hobby. Another classic example of a games which should be in the top 10 would have to be Sushi Go.. How many people have played this and been introduced to drafting? An absolute classic, sold everywhere, a game gamers can play with non-gamers and enjoy
Luke, I am with you in my dislike of Brass. I am bemused with the efforts people are making to try to boost Brass/Gloomhaven in the race for #1. I never use BGG ratings as a matrix for games that I might buy due to these crazy skewed rankings....
Regarding joining entries together is difficult. Take Ticket to Ride, I prefer Europe over USA. I like what Europe does with the stations that opens up the game (and if you want can play it a little less mean). My rating for these games are different because of the differences.
Then average them all together perhaps? I don't know, but I can't see how a small tweak to Europe would make you hate USA, it's still Ticket to Ride at the end of the day, and funny enough I actually like Europe the least because not only do you have those annoying luck filled tunnels, but I don't like the Stations as it means no-one fails a ticket.
@@TheBrokenMeeple Decided to look at my bgg ratings for the games. I actually don’t have a rating for Ticket to Ride (USA) only Europe. Europe 9 USA would be 8. I know 1 is nothing in the great scheme of things. This is another problem with Ratings by the general public as a whole; my rating of Europe is wrapped up in Nostalgia. I had this game a long time before I knew about board games (this and Monopoly is what I had - before Disney Villainous busted the doors down). Therefore the memories made with the game (including who bought me the game) and knowing I had a real game before I knew it all effect my rating. My rating is personal to me and not that useful for anyone else. The stations make the game less mean but I have never seen someone win the game by using them. Why I prefer Europe seeing all the places I have been on the map (and all the places I want to go). Again my Europe rating is higher because I have traveled little parts of Europe by Train (this is only going to be relevant to me). Also I like the ferries and if I was a reviewer my ideal Ticket to Ride would be Europe without the Stations or USA with ferries. On a far more important note; thank you for the Roll Player recommendation (about a year ago). Got it at Christmas and it is excellent; I love it. Thank you 😀
The games I think should be too 10 that aren’t would be Ticket to Ride (for the reasons you gave) and Lords of Waterdeep. I’ll admit I really like Waterdeep but it’s not in my top 5. It’s a game that draws in DND fans and is pretty easy to learn (at least on the app). Gloomhaven would be my #1 but it’s too heavy to be #1. I also agree that JotL should be included as the same game. I know it’s a game you don’t care for but the most fun I’ve had playing a game is with Gloomhaven
Yeah the top 100 is a tough subject. It is hard to give it too much credit, as anyone in the hobby understands, but it is also forward facing for people who don't know much about the hobby. I've heard a story of someone who used it to buy their gamer family member Gloomhaven bc it was (is, lol) the "#1 game". Obviously, I think most gamers know that is not a game to gift lightly.. I'd assume results going by the "number of votes" for games instead of rank generates a list that is probably more in line with the type of list you'd prefer for a top 100. Games that are more representative/ forward facing in the hobby.. But at the same time, that person who was gifting games to their hobby family member may not want Carcassone or TTR as a gift (as they might already have it, or it might be somethething that person isn't interested in). Games really are like art. Everyone has a different taste and will regard different works at different levels. Though, that fact doesn't make its popularity right or wrong. However, I can sympathize; having something that you don't connect well with taking such a public, cornerstone role in a major aspect of your life can be frusturating. But I guess at the end of the day, it is just a game. Stay well, Luke.
There's no easy solution sadly, I'd rather they just scrapped rankings and kept the site as a good database with forums. But yeah I've heard about people doing that with Gloomhaven and that's the big issue - it's misleading. Anyone unfamiliar with the hobby will take that list as gospel. However there's still die-hard gamers who take the list as gospel because their favourite games are on it. I bet you money if Ark Nova gets to #1 - all the haters who are sad to see Brass surpassed will cry out that the system doesn't work.
Happy to see Fizzie in the background! However, it breaks my heart to hear of your sadness around Valentine's Day. Glad you played some games and had a good time though. Another great show today! Humorous, thought provoking, genuine... and that great Luke-level energy is back in full swing!
The BGG top 100 is pretty much meaningless to me at this point, I mean I gave both Ark Nova and Terraforming Mars a 5 out of 10, but they're ranked 4th and 6th respectively. I'm not saying those games are trash, I just don't like them. So what if the number 1 ranked game is something you don't care for? Who cares? Popularity has nothing to do with quality, especially the individualistic measurement of it.
Like it or not (and I don’t play it anymore) but Magic the Gathering should be number one if all the geeks voted on it. I agree Ticket to Ride should be top as well. BGG is just the playground for geeks. I just use it similar to you; for info, rules updates/questions, and the files section to pick up for instance the ARNO bot for Ark Nova or new scenarios for Undaunted. The rest is rubbish.
I don't agree about disallowing different versions of a game having a separate entry. It's a grey area of course, but clearly different seasons of Pandemic Legacy, for example, are different to each other (no bias here I haven't played any of them). I don't like Marvel movies, but I don't think that on imdb they should all be given a single rating and filed under 'Miscellaneous Marvel movies', much as that's my opinion of them.
@@TheBrokenMeeple To be fair, I think I misinterpreted your opinion. Correct me if I'm wrong, but your bugbear isn't about different versions of a game having their own rating, it's about their multiple respresentation in the ranking. But the ranking is just some arbitrary rules applied to put games in some sort of order (why anyone would directly compare games like that is a bit of a mystery anyway, you could probably rank fruit in a similar way but it wouldn't make a banana better than a pineapple just because the numbers said so). Preventing multiple versions in the rankings seems like just another arbitrary rule to add to the pile. It's best not to worry about it too much I suppose. And besides, bananas are better than pineapples.
Lol just checked the rankings of my collection. Of our 55 game collection, 8 are in the top 100, 10 are ranked between 101-500. 7 ranked between 501-1000. Yes I have a a fair amount of family/kid games but that’s still a large portion of our collection not in the top 1000 and I don’t consider our collection a crappy set of games lol goes to show how much I pay attention to the ranks though lol I look at them but hold very little stock in the number.
Yeah, multiple editions of the same game in the top 100 makes no sense. Brass became #1 again by Gloomhaven getting a ton of 1 ratings. This is not even funny anymore. Obsession is great, even people not caring for the theme like it. You could have Dobble or Uno in the top 10 if you count sold copies. I love Ticket to Ride. I don't understand how Carcassonne is only ranked 200. I have played 21 games currently in the top 100 and I only want to try another 12. That's says a lot.
I don’t agree about games like TTR (or Monopoly!) being in the top 10 games. Think of it like cars. Something like the Mclaren F1 may be the best car of all time. However I’ll never get close to driving it, and it would be useless for me as a car as it would cost too much to run on a daily commute and would not have the boot space needed. Those with a keen interest or knowledge of an activity will have a different view to the common man on the street and I think BGG reflects that. I do agree on multiple editions, or other versions that are basically map packs. I’d also like to see an adjusted average that re-rates games based upon the reviewers own ratings as I don’t think we see consistency amongst scores from people. I rate very few games a 9 or 10 and for me a 7 is a good game and a 6 is decent. Others think anything at 6 or less is unplayable.
Agree to disagree on the first part, but yeah multiple editions need to be sorted. That way we'd get rid of Eclipse 1.5, Jaws of the Lion, TTA 3rd edition, TI 3rd edition, Brass Birmingham, all sorts.
Hahahaha logging plays, so true. We were sooo diligent logging and then suddenly we constantly forget. The time struggeling and fidgeting with the BGG app is not really worth. Its not accurate anyways... Quick games quickly rise to like 10/20+ plays while longer plays will maybe be 5 plays but in hours we spent more time on those longer games in total.
LOL i log my plays but only who I played with. Best game for two star-crossed players: I guess this is it Best thing about V day: heart shaped pizza. That’s it.
Re. Collaborations - there is a small channel, Tablenauts, not sure if you are familiar with them. The two guys on it are very likeable and entertaining, might be an idea to reach out to them
The site (as in, the users) also has a heavy bias towards eurogames. Less than 20 games from the top 100 are non-euros (and some are euroish). There's only 1 CCG, 2 LCG and 0 wargames.
BGG has many big problems and flaws; and no impetus to fix or improve them. That's almost always an issue when there is no real competition, and no internal checks and balances. I would not care if it wasn't for the fact that many publishers treat it as their one stop information/download location; endorsing and propping up its hegemony. Unfortunately many mediocre heavy games find undeserved success as a result of BGG's flawed system and biases, while many very good to excellent mid and lighter weight games that deserve great success get lost in their rating system.
I'll take it one further: Gloomhaven is not a board game. It is a game, but not a board game. Magic The Gathering is a card game and really has no place in a board game list. The board game hobby is it's own thing, just like wargames (tabletop miniatures battles or hex maps and chits 'n' charts) is it's own thing. We certainly do not include Role Playing games as part of the Board Game hobby, as they are two entirely different things. It's too late to divide these very different types of games on BGG and it's unfortunate that "board game" is watered down to include other types of games (dexterity games? Yikes.). Now, who decides what game should be in what category is another whole can of worms. People argue about what qualifies as a sport and we will likely do the same in our (superior) pastime!
What a joy your proposal would be. Endless, subjective arguments about what qualifies as a "board game" and what does not. Shall we appoint you the Czar of deciding this?
How is gloomhaven not a board game? 🤣. It's made of cardboard and plays like 100 other dungeon crawl board game Kickstarters which have come out in the last 5 years
Board game “geek”. If we are going by world wide mass appeal, play counts and sales, it would be Monopoly, Risk, Trouble, Sorry, Scrabble and Checkers…
not quite, I mean, where was the mass appeal for something like Sorry? And it's not just simply a case of comparing sales figures, though with modern games that should be at least looked at. Most modern games aren't massive sellers, so for one game like TTR to transcend everything for the last 19-20 years is impressive.
Nice one Luke, will be listening to this in a minute - excited for your top 10 2-player player games, I play a good chunk of my gaming sessions 2-player
i use bgg mostly to check on issues with a game, player counts, and solo modes. as far as deciding what is or isnt the best game of all time, i find the masses more unreliable than the website lol. people are far more likely to play a bad 20 dollar game than an amazing 100 dollar game. it just is what it is, and no matter how much they pay they will do their best in most cases to justify the purchase. i dont care for GH, AT ALL, i dont get the fascination with a slow monotonous dungeon crawl that cant figure out what it is lol. effeciency puzzle? with random miss cards? lol. that said, it has a lot of fans, most of which probably use BGG so it makes sense it ranks that high. i wouldnt rank Ark Nova as high as #4 on my shelf let alone of all time, but again people like it and most of its fans likely use BGG so i can see why its ranked so well. Heat will be in the top 100 by this time next year. not saying its not a great game, top 100 of all time? nah. the best way to rank these games would be to break them down into categories imo. either by weight or genre, something, and as you suggested combine games of the same title. unfortunately BGG is making money these days so any passion that once existed is long left for the bank at this point. none of the changes are likely to ever happen
Interesting read - I actually would not be surprised if Heat did end up in the Top 100, it's got wide appeal, easy to play, easy to teach, has extra modules within the box for good replay value, a super easy AI solo system and is highly regarded. I'd sooner see it in that list then something like Gloomhaven.
I don't agree with you. That is called Board Game Geek Ranking. If geeks are praising niche gaimes I'm ok with that. I don't care whether it is Gloomhaven, Brass, Ark Nova, whatever. This is made by community votes and if community praises those games - fine. If you want a ranking that is good for the whole industry maybe consider creating Board Game Casual Ranking that excludes heavy geek games. I think this might be cool. Btw. I played Decrypto recently and that was fun.
Very difficult to have such a subjective and hype driven hobby end up with anything "accurate" when anyone can just vote a score. Ultimately there is no way to ensure those who vote own a game unlike Steam for video games so inherently it's open to abuse and anything you account for via algorithms will not really help. Overall BGG is a rough guide where you need need to consider the genre .. I personally don't enjoy Euros but lots of people do. BGG does have filters for this but I feel it could do with some more options. Same for Weight.. I do find it useful but I'm not looking at it at such a granular level just what do people who have played it think it is which is better than a single reviewers opinion. Also be careful what you wish for.. If BGG suddenly became perfect then who would watch your Top 10 videos :).
I disagree on your point about splendor, TTR and Catan should being at top game of all time. By your logic monopoly should be #1 because everyone played it and everyone can aproach it. BBG rating is not perfect i agree with that. It was for geeks hence why name of the site. We shouldnt blame such people want to play more crunchy titles. Ofc these days geek mean nothing, because everyone watch comic book movies or enjoy their star wars. I disagree on your notion that every pandemic is the same... Like Rome? I know you want to hammer point but some your examples is hit or miss. Another editions fix or broke some stuff and that's nature of this editions. Its to hard to judge if game changed enough to justify new Item on the top list. I feel Like your top games should be approachable games. I dont agree, some games are great and deserve to be #100 even tho they are harder to approach.
Not because everyone can play it and everyone can approach it, but even to this day, Monopoly still sells. Families still buy the various spinoffs. Yes I hate the game, but it still makes money hence game stores still stock the thing. But I'm supposed to allow a £150 niche Euro-dungeon crawl in a crate box that can't even be fully played by most people be regarded as #1 of all time? And Rome pandemic wasn't that far off, it's still cubes spreading on a line map and you can't let it go overboard, there's just another victory condition and a couple of tweaks.
@@TheBrokenMeeple Sure, but there is no good rating system. Across the scope of board games, there are too many game design variables to consider (e.g. complexity, number of players, art, story, interaction, fun-ness, etc, etc) and a very broad range of values within each of those variables (e.g. Uno to On Mars) not to mention an incredibly diverse group of people that have there own likes/dislikes. You could never develop an algorithm that would take all that into account and weight everything appropriately to create a rating/ranking system that would ever be viewed as "correct" by anywhere close to a majority of individuals. Even with all the flaws, I think the BGG rating serves the purpose for the people that use the site and bother to rate the games. They understand and take into account the inherent biases. To me it feels a little like tilting at windmills to crusade against something that really doesn't have a good answer and probably can't even be made all that much "better" since there'd be no agreement on what constitutes "better". Just my ¢¢.
I love your hate your brass being number one yet in the same breathe you say comments like... things about "the game opinions are more than just the individual. Think about other people's thoughts about it" I've never played brass but this seems a bit of hypocrisy
Not quite - consider the wording in detail. I hate Brass and can still dislike it being high. But my one opinion as a die hard gamer shouldn't factor in on its own to the ranking system. We gamers are a niche group, but games are available to all, but those voices aren't heard because they won't subscribe to a database website. So I bet if they did, there would be a massive uplift of games from further down. When I say "think about others thoughts", I'm talking about those outside of our niche group.
You ask what game I would like to see in the top ten and I picked five tribes, for it teacher's set collection and a puzzle to plan movement and rule-backing abilities
To be completely fair, the site is called Board Game Geek, not Occasional Board Gamer. That said, BGG's rating system does have an irremediable bias towards heavy games, but it's not even really about the site itself. People who don't particularly expect to love a game are much more willing to try it anyway if it's only going to take a half-hour than if it's going to take all night, so lighter games are always going to have more negative ratings mixed in. Also, the way the site converts user scores into GeekScore (near as I can tell, by adding 1000 votes of 5.5 to all games and then making some minor adjustments that seem to slightly penalize KS games) is pretty basic and could certainly be improved.
On the other hand, the idea that heavy or long games should be disqualified from being highly ranked because you have to be more into the hobby to appreciate them seems quite wrong to me. Think about other things people have to "get into" to really enjoy; in almost no cases are the things used as introductions really considered the peak of the art, as opposed to something decent that's more accessible in some way (e.g., Einstein using Mantovani to get people into orchestral music). For most things, the idea is that as you gain familiarity and knowledge, you get to experience the more sublime and subtle pleasures of things you wouldn't have enjoyed or even really understood before. And while it's certainly true that connoisseurship can veer into snobbery and inauthentic praise, that's an argument for not caring what other people think, not an argument against connoisseurship itself.
Exactly what I thought when listening to this. Agree with the rant on duplicate entries though
I played Brass Birmingham for the first time earlier today. I haven't played a lot of top games but from roughly 200 games that I have played so far I can comfortable say that Brass Birmingham is the best. The ruleset and actions are simple yet the game is so deep. Full of difficult decisions that rewards careful planning
While I don't necessarily disagree with your criticism of the BGG ratings I don't see an easy way of changing things as everyone's idea of what should be a top ten/top 100 game will be highly subjective. It's also worth considering that BGG *is* a niche site for hardcore gamers for the most part (literally no one who I know, including several who play quite a few games, have ever heard of it). To illustrate that, Wingspan has 75k ratings with well over 1 million copies sold, so 95% of people who have bought it haven't rated it.
I view the BGG ratings as being a bit like the IMDb top 250 films list. It may pop onto my radar games that I wasn't aware of, but in no way is it a guarantee that I'll like it. Looking at the current top 100 I either own or have previously owned 34, I won't ever play 37, leaving 29 that I would consider playing/buying. Gloomhaven wouldn't come near my top 1000, much less the top 100, but clearly I'm not the target demographic for it. On the other hand Brass: Birmingham is currently my #2 game of all time and when I hear your criticisms of it I wonder whether we're talking about the same game - I'm sure Gloomhaven fans would think the same about me when I pass my opinion on it.
I also think the obsession with the top 100 is overblown. There are over 20k games listed on the site so if something is in the top 2k it's in the top 10% of all games. This is where the list comes into its own. Dig into the murky depths of the top 2k (or even the top 10k) and you can find some real gems (Steam Donkey at 6,356 is a delightful little game, Arkwright: The Card Game is outside the top 3,000 and Strasbourg doesn't make the top 1,000).
I have many gripes with BGG, but the ratings are low on that list. As a database and resource it's excellent.
As a database it's fine, I just wished it stuck with that and focused on that without inviting this kind of craziness.
For fear of repeating myself from other videos, I always thought sorting by number of ratings (Caracassonne is number 1 and TTR is in the top 10) or number of plays is much more insightful.
Indeed - a niche hobbyist game will pale in comparison in that respect. And I hate that people have bought new gamers stuff like Gloomhaven believing it's the #1 of all time when that gamer clearly can't handle it.
I think the whole Brass/Gloomhaven thing has done a lot to get people to reassess how they look at BGG ratings and perhaps not to get so worked up about the whole thing. Although, having seen Gloomhaven drop down to 3 since, that may be wishful thinking.
Also good to hear your candid comments about your feelings around V-Day, it's not something that's ever bothered me, single or not, but I get why the atmosphere around the day could play on one's mind. It's tough to open up about things, so fair play to you for doing so
2 things.
the "same game" thing I super agree with. I think there should be a "family" system like how GMT does it. where families of games are grouped together and only the highest scoring of the games is rated for the family, this is so a good game cant is bogged down by a bunch of bad games in the same family. so with brass, Birmingham, and Lancashire and the original will be in the same family and the games will be rated separately. but for bgg ranking, they will be put into the same family and Birmingham will be representing the family because it is the highest rated.
also, I have heard the bgg ranking system using a bayesian average(Shelfside has a good video about it) but basically, the rating is the average of the normal voted average with fake votes of the average rating someone can give(5.5). this number affects how many votes affect the rating. so if there are 2 games 1 with 1,000 votes all 10s and a 2nd game with 10,000 votes all with 9s, the 2nd game will be ranked higher because there are more people to skew away from the 5.5 fake votes on average.
Continuing with my point, the amount of fake votes is around the number of users on the website, so I think that should be changed to the number of sales that a game has gotten to get a more precise number of fake votes.
3 small notes:
I liked brass Birmingham way more than other games people love, for example, I just don't understand why people like everdell and scythe so much. everdall I can see near the 60s at best in rating and scythe should be near the 300s.
war of the ring does deserve to be in the top 10 if not top 5.
undaunted stalingrad(undaunted family) and stone age deserve to be in the top 100.
Undaunted doesn't have anywhere near the popularity for top 100. Stone Age had its time but I never see it played any more.
@@TheBrokenMeeple yeah but both are in the top 200. so I guess I can only hope.
My top 10 - in no particular order - taking into account various factors:
Gameplay fun / quality
How many people it has introduced to gaming
How easy it is to actually get to the table
Replayabilty
The likelihood people will still be playing it in 5 years
The impact it has had (ie. How much it is talked about and respected, or how much it is a leader in its field)
Ticket to Ride
Carcassonne
Splendor
7 Wonders / 7 wonders Duel
Agricola
Clank
Heat: Pedal to the Metal
Zombicide
Wingspan
Spirit Island
Good list! I personally don't like every one of them, but agree they all should be rated higher than the top games on BGG
Interesting, Clank and Zombicide I think would be hard to justify alongside Spirit Island. I could see a case for 7 Wonders, Splendor, Carcassonne (even though I don't see it played/mentioned much any more) and certainly TTR.
@The Broken Meeple Spirit Island I felt just because so original and still unique (and extremely popular). Similarly, Zombicide I would see as the leader or at least best known in its sphere. Clank I saw as the clear weak link here, but I struggled to come up with a tenth!
What about azul, Barrin park, five tribes instead of of agricola, zombicids
I think Clank! is a great representative of entry level deckbuilding, racing, and push your luck.
I have never trusted BBG ratings. The problem is something like Ticket To Ride is played by a wide range of gamers so gets a wide range of results. Where as Brass Birmingham is played by only heavy gamers that are predisposed to like the game. Also people who have spent fortunes on a game (normally through Kickstarter) rate that game higher than they would as they feel like they need to justify the outlay.
The KS point is spot on, everyone who backs a KS will naturally inflate their rating unless they are willing to overlook that initial cost, which many will not.
I see the Iron Clays box in the background. Considering your opinion on Brass, why do you have these?
Because even though I hate the game I can't deny the component quality. 😅 Plus you can buy them separate from the main game.
From my understanding, it's common in Q1 to have reduced views and revenue, tax season is normally blamed. For the BGG rankings, I agree on your points. I'd suggest a weighted system that degrades over time. For example, you rate a game a 10 and lock in your rating. This gives the game 100 points or whatever. After a year(or another time variation*), those points get cut in half automatically in the system. The weight can be reset by re-rating the game after a year* when it becomes unlocked. This way, if you love a game, you will be more likely to re-rate it, and ignore the ones you haven't played or rate lower after the newness wears off or opinions change. Problems is the list would change drastically all the time, especially after the first cycle. But this system would reflect a more accurate bias on what is being played and what has wide appeal. Ticket to Ride and Azul would be in the top 10 all the time because they are always played and have wide appeal. Games like Spirit Island, Wingspan, Root, and Gloomhaven would also be in the top 10 often due to their high replayability and fanbases. No game is perfect, but some games may be perfect to some person, and this system would reflect on which games are perfect to the most people at any given time. I think any system would suffer from what you mentioned about spoof accounts, and review bombing has been an issue in every industry.
I had suggested something similar years ago on BGG; but got nothing but backlash for questioning the sacred BGG system.
Yeah woe betide you have an opinion against the status quo these days. I've had enough bad dealings with trolls or games or fans of other channels before.
Super enjoyed the 7 Wonders expansions video, and the Abyss one. I’ve had 7 wonders second edition with Leaders expansion for ages and still haven’t played it (played 7 wonders duel to death) and it got me excited to actually get it to the table. Appreciate the work!
Thank you!!
Thoughts on BGG:
1. I agree that duplicates or previous editions basically the same should be in one entry
2. I think it’s lame that games can be rated before they’re available.
3. BGG is a hobbyist/geek site and therefore more casual lighter games don’t make sense to be up at the top just based on who is visiting the site.
4. Red raven games are all underrated
Looking forward to the new Cyclades! Haven't played it in years. (I recall my geek of a wife made Xena character cards for it😆). Yeah, might dig that out of the vault (older board games storage closet) for a play soon.
BTW, you made some solid points about BGG.
Thanks!
It seems like a weird argument to criticize the BGG rating system because some games are/aren't on the list.
The system isn't designed to rank games based on impact, weight, accessibility, popularity, etc. It's simply a representation of user-generated votes based primarily on their rating and weighted partially by number of votes. So of course it isn't going to be representative of the hobby as a whole - it'll instead be representative of how people *who use the site and rate games on it* vote.
Understanding that limitation/caveat is key to interpreting the results and determining how much credence to give the rankings.
As such I think it's highly arrogant to claim that any individual game "deserves" to be in the top 10 or 100. You're basically saying your own opinion matters more than tens of thousands of people's actual votes, which is quite invalidating.
The way to "fix" the BGG ranking system is to make the ratings more representative of everyone who actually plays the games. This would involve increased awareness of BGG, discouraging troll voting designed to unduly impact the rankings, and exercising caution in interpreting the rankings via increased education/understanding of the limitations inherent to virtually any self-selected review/rating system (i.e., that they are not generalizable beyond the types of individuals who engaged with the rating system, and thus their external validity linearly improves as a function of what proportion of individuals who play the games provide a rating).
The fact it's a user generated vote system only voted on by a niche group that is one sided in their typical gaming views is the whole issue. Yes I get that's what it's representative of, doesn't mean I have to like it or think it's not a broken system.
Is there an easy solution? No likely not. Honestly I'd rather they scrapped the whole rating system and just kept it as a database and discussion forum - remove the need for ranking.
@@TheBrokenMeeple That's fair. I guess my point is this is a systematic problem with essentially any rating system that doesn't get nearly 100% engagement. So while the information is skewed, the ratings still provide some information and facilitate discussion - and scrapping ratings entirely takes that away.
Battlestar is LIT, and we still play it! Through the Ages being top 20 is one of life’s mysteries - I have never seen it played.
I never see BSG out, but it has its fans. You're right on TTA, the app just killed it.
Not sure why you are so upset by BGG rankings. A niche hobby. Website used by a small amount of "board gamers". No surprise it skews heavy. Just because you don't like a game why would it be upsetting that others have rated it higher than what you think? You can have problems with the algorithm fine. What would be better? I don't know what algorithm could be employed to make ticket to ride the best game when you look at ranking? You would have to purposely ignore ratings and skew towards lighter games. Then we have a group of board gamers use a website that purposely adjusts rankings away from the preferred type of game. Sounds like you want BGG to do have an outcome you want rather than ask for a ranking system and seeing what the games at the end of it are.
I would simply not have rankings. Just make it a solid database with discussion forums, useful files, info etc.
@@TheBrokenMeeple but you have that? Just don't look at the ratings column? And then anyone who wants to use the ranking feature can?
Ratings that automatically degrade over time unless they are actively re-rated would help keep actually played games higher up in the rankings.
@@thomassawicki6103 why should a game rated a 10 by me and not rerated but a game rated by you a 10 and rated every year be worth different? That just means that BGG becomes weighed towards the superusers of the site that rerate games. And what of negative ratings? What if I renew a 1 rating every year to rate down a game I hate because I was annoyed by a Kickstarter being late? WHy should that matter more than the person who one time only decided to rate the game an 8?
My feeling on Root (and Oath to an even greater degree) is that it's a lot more interesting to think about than to actually play.
Also, chameleons don't change color as often as Jane Austen characters. Every third sentence in Pride and Prejudice mentions someone blushing or turning pale.
Ha ha, I hated that book so much! So many "balls", every other chapter it's about a dance ball.
Luke - you and I aren't aligned on everything, but ohh my I am right with you on Brass. My dislike circles around to a fundamental misunderstanding of what people see in the game. I'm glad for anyone who does love it or any board game really. The good thing is I don't care what the ratings are for it. The BGG top are one of the least effective ways to discover new games.
Looking forward to trying Hegemony!
BGG Ratings: I feel they need more ways to customize and aggregate ratings based. The best method would be to analyze what you rate then give the top games others who have rated similar to yours. I'd want to see a sort of avg weight of ratings so you can filter to users who rate hugger mostly 2, 3, or 4 weight games. Also limit filters to see ranking only by those who have done 10 or less ratings, vs 100, or ones who leave comments and ones who don't. Or separate out rankings by verified content creators. Basically give options to let us crunch in ways other than their black box. There is no system that makes the most sense for everyone. Really there should be no universal top list - we all have very different tastes and the only value these lists should have is for discovery of new games (which in its current form is pretty bad)
PREACH IT! :D
REALLY agree with the second editions being on the top 100 list. Absolute waste of space.
Yeah there's a bunch in the Top 100 alone and it's completely unfair, but of course no fanboy of the game in question is going to dispute it.
I like a rant! Your argument is not without its flaws but I prefer your honest views to those of a number of creators who are cheer leaders rather than folk who might occasionally say a game is sub standard!!!
T's how I roll!
I think BGG should have expansions as a subsection of the original game and they should also categorize games by a manufacturer rating of its weight (Gateway/Medium/Heavy).
Yes I'd go for that.
I generally agree with you, although decrypto is played a lot in my country, the real question is what makes a game the greatest of all time, popularity?,sales?,originality?, for example glenffiditch is the most consumed whisky in the world, does that make it automatically the best whisky in the world? At the end there are multiple factors and the best game just like with the whisky is the one YOU like the most, it maybe the number 100 for other people and that does not matter
There's no easy solution sadly, I'd rather they just scrapped rankings and kept the site as a good database with forums.
Totally agree on Decrypto being overrated. I organize a word games meetup, got it when it came out, gave it away after about a dozen plays, and hope to never see it again. Word games for teams that are better than Decrypto include Codenames, Word Slam, Word on the Street, and Taboo. Scrabble with its many tournaments yet kitchen-table playable is the greatest word game of all time and should be in the top ten, but it's not a gamer's game. Great word games for gamers are Hardback, So Clover, and Letter Jam. Agree on Ticket to Ride (I have 14 maps) and Splendor being underrated. I don't like Pandemic very much but I respect it, will play it to go along, and understand why it should be rated high. Best wishes for your health and happiness.
A good read!! Thanks!
BGG is a hobbiest site. The highly ranked games are going to be the ones that hobbiests' enjoy. It's not the highest sales or the most accessible games. It's not the games with the broadest appeal. In fact, it's almost the inverse of that. The games keep away the people that'd give them middling reviews while catering to a niche audience to rise to the top.
I don't know for sure what I'd put as the best games of all time. But, I know that none of the BGG Top 10 would be on it. Ticket to Ride wouldn't be on it. Magic: The Gathering might be in the top spot. It's not only the shift the game created, but modern board games borrow heavily from the design. It's one of the giants that modern board games are standing on the shoulders of. And, I would likely approach any Top Games of All Time list from that perspective. What games truly had an impact on the hobby?
Not simply popular with the casuals or derivative complexity for the hobbiests.
Totally fine with MTG being up there, but TTR needs to be up there as well. MTG isn't a casual game at all, it's fully hobbyist, but it deserves much more recognition on the Top 10 then Gloomhaven or Brass by miles.
What about Wingspan? It sold a ton. Also, not to name the names, but what about old euro games with ugly covers that you don't like: do they deserve to be in a top10? They are old, but still selling.
I like weight rating. I know that it's a bit wacky, but when I find a new game for me that's one of the starting points. If weight is >3.5 do I really have people to play it with? If weight is around 2 then most likely I can play it with my family. Based on that, should I investigate more i.e. watch a review or two? If it's
A game weight can be determined by one person though - if a game's weight has been barely rated, then it can skew heavily. Wingspan could well be a Top 10 potential. Love or hate it, like you said, it's sold constantly, it's an Evergreen, it's accessible to many gamers, not all, but many, it has a palettable relatable theme and not coal mining or generic fantasy - I'd certainly put it up there. Maybe I do need to do that Top 10 Games That Should be on BGG list. . . .
I was thinking about your question a lot and... Based on which country do you want to make top10 or top100 for that matter? Distribution is different in each country and popularity of the game in that country depends on distribution.
I bet you never heard of the most popular game in my country. It beats Monopoly by a mile on any criterion you can think of: sales, total plays. And yes, it's a party game -
Alias (1990). There are at least 3 different versions in every supermarket. Third place would go to Uno. Fourth place will go to Jenga knock-offs, because original is too expensive. Fifth place probably will go to similar game to "One night werewolf", however I couldn't find version that is sold here on BGG.
As for what actually should be in top10: Dixit, Carcassone, Kingdomino, Everdell seems like good contenders.
What about chess, checkers and go? Are they too cool to be in top100?
Oh, man... Sorry, I get that you're upset with the system, but your logic is extremely flawed here.
Do people put way too much emphasis on BGG rank? Sure, no doubt! But here you go putting too much emphasis on BGG rank as well. See the contradiction? It's not like it's "objective" or anything. It's a popularity contest between games loved by board game GEEKS, hence website name. Is your hate towards Brass or love towards Ark Nova "objective"? Of course it's not, and it can't be. I dislike some games from BGG top, but strongly think that everything there deserves attention for one reason or another, even ones I hate. There are no random entries there. It's a list of games website audience (dedicated gamers) consider great, not a definitive list of "best games of all time for everyone". And when you try to see it as anything other than what it is, you have a problem in judgement, love it or hate it. Fight for top-1 spot and review bombings are very stupid of course, but can occure EVERYWHERE with a rating system, see rotten tomatoes and metacritic.
No game "deserves" any spot. Maybe if you gather independent committee of professionals with strictly defined criteria, but who needs that? What criteria is more important: copies sold or clever design or miniature size? How can you measure amount of enjoyment? I think TTR is kinda boring, but who should even care what I think? By the way, you can sort BGG top by "Num Voters", and have Carcassonne, CATAN, Pandemic and Ticket to Ride all in top 10.
Amazingly put and completely agree
I think we have to agree to disagree, but I get where you're coming from. However if you can't talk about the rating system to dispute what's wrong with it, then how can you possibly argue against it. Same would apply for any topic, if emphasing the subject matter in an argument negates the argument.
(says sarcastically): copies sold period.. everyone talks about the top movies by revenue - an extremely flawed stat to be sure… video games can go by copies sold. so why not boardgames. So your game is hot but it’s only played by 3 people. ( end sarcasm).
BGG rankings attempts to do that ( see shelfside analyses of bgg rankings ). Seriously there is no one good system, every measure has flaws but the measure should change with the times and incorporate more data rather than a simple popularity contest among niche audience.
And BGG is no longer for so called “Geeks” it’s now graduated for all. So the argument for saying it’s for geeks is foolish, the industry is growing and reaching mainstream audiences more and more and the rankings need to reflect such
@@victorybhg Is it a niche audience of geeks rating games? Or is BGG "for all"?
Anyone that wants to join can. But, the core audience of the site leans towards hobbiests. With a significant chunk of that audience leaning towards Euro games. Thus, the games that rank towards the top are going to be games that members of the site enjoy.
I agree that the rankings are rubbish! The fact that Concordia is only 21 when it should be top 5 minimum is a travesty!
Luke: [Head Explodes]
🤣🤣🤣
I just take BGG rankings, etc for what they are. Just another data point to consider and great reference source for the hobby. Cheers!
In defence of Decrypto (and with a whole lot of personal bias) - it’s the best word game out there and so “worthy” in some sense of being well regarded. Although I’d agree that Codenames is much more widely popular and in any meaningful list of top 100 games, it’d have to be the higher placed of the 2 (and the same for Scrabble I guess). But hey, at least Decrypto isn’t yet another heavy euro or wildly expensive KS campaign mega game and it brings some much needed diversity of weight and genre into the list. And not to worry, it’ll soon get bumped out by plenty of games that fit top 100 stereotypes.
I agree with you that Ticket to Ride should be higher up. My favorite stat on BBG is the best at player count.
That is probably the only stat that tends to get it right.
The BGG Ratings is indeed just a reference tool. I agree with your take almost entirely. But with your argument one would have to include Chess (I don't like) or Go (my number one game of all time by a mile!). But what about Carcassonne - better than Catan, for me at least. Almost everything you said about Catan is true for Carcassonne as well. But for sure I would not like to see Monopoly on the top 100 either! Still sold and everywhere - but I don't think it is still played at all?? I love your video with this chat about BBG-rating.
Oh Monopoly is still being played believe me. My nephew has a Naruto Monopoly, and when I go to my FLGS I do see some people occasionally have a Monopoly out - it's what they are familar with and they're probably not into modern gaming. We certainly don't tend to associate with those who would simply play Monopoly, but it still sells. They wouldn't keep printing subsets if it didn't.
Sounds like you’re saying “Fruity Ages”… 🤔 sounds intriguing.
I get that a lot! :P
Weight ratings have another layer of complexity. A person can learn Go or Chess in 30 minutes but study them for a life time. So how should those games be rates?
You make a good argument for Ticket to Ride, Pandemic and Splendor to be #1-3. Other games in the top ten might include Carcassone and Sushi Go (both of which you mentioned). Maybe instead of a specific game, there could be generic game - social deduction game (The Resistance, One Night Werewolf etc), worker placement game (Stone Age, Lords of Waterdeep), area control (Hansa Teutonica). Just the games that makes people say - 'oh, yeah, Boardgame night, sure, that's fun. What can I bring?' But how do you really rank those? Anyway, fun rant.
Looking very forward to your two-player lists as well as your review on Obsession. As far as the dip in views, are you sure people understand what "Quick Draw" means when they see it on your videos' titles? I didn't. I wondered if that could have anything to do with it. Finally, I think I've pitched this top ten idea to you before, but for a while I have thought a really fun/interesting topic would be: Top Ten Game BOARDS. That is, the boards specifically. In other words, which boards stand out as the very best in terms of 1) aethetics, 2) functionality, and 3) creativity. You'd do a great job with it too.
Have you done Top Ten Rulebooks before?
What about 5 Worst Rulebooks? (Just throwing out ideas.)
Grateful for the ideas, just uncertain how popular they would be. Also I doubt I would remember enough rulebooks to come up with best/worst - i mean maybe they could make podcast topics at some stage.
@@TheBrokenMeeple Fair play.
How about top 10 content creators you wouldnt want to be stuck in an elevator with? 🙂
BGG is a nice database but yes the weight rating and one rating for the entire game is very minimal and does not give a good representation about a game. (Chess is easy to teach, difficult to master.)
I would like to give separate ratings for intuitivity of rules, components (artwork and quality), balance, tension and of course fun.
Filler games will now not really make the top 100 but these are the little easy fun games that get people into the hobby! We play bohnanza all the time, we can play it with anyone. It has a lot of interaction, everybody likes it. Its not our favorite game but it should be at least in the top 50/75.
There is many things that could improve that system but sadly everyone will be biased to big unnecessary kickstarters and heavy/mean euros.
I can see your points and there is certainly room for improvement. However I cannot imagine a ranking system that would do Ticket to Ride justice. If mostly gamers gather on a website and rate games, lighter games are going to fall under the table. The "Spiel des Jahres" Award for example is meant to bring new gamers on board, but BGG could never do that. Also I think that most sold should not be the main factor for best game. Personally, I see Quacks being enjoyed by a lot of people and it is good for many sorts of gamers so I would put that one high up.
Don't overthink the views on some videos too much. I enjoy watching all of them, but sometimes can't keep up. And I like to hear you talking about a game, even if it's not getting the most views.
Appreciated of course! 👍
I don't even bother with the ranking system on BGG, I know it's biased so I just ignore it. I don't like how some games are merged and come under the versions tab and some are given their own entry. Even though some of the games that get their own entry have a few rule changes and new artwork when others that have the same changes are merged. Reading comments on a game thread it's down to BGG to decide which games get their own entry or are merged, so BGG are biased themselves otherwise it would be the same rule for all games being merged or not.
Sadly with far too many people with far too much time on their hands mass rating games, a 1 or 10 using whatever excuses they come up with, people's biases and BGG bias the rating system is worthless and should probably just be scrapped.
THIS!!! 😁
I think you hit most of the "Top 10" of all time - TTR should be number 1, but probably Splendor, Wingspan, Azul, Codenames, King of Tokyo, Pictomania, Tsuro - some I like and some I have moved on from but these really are games with mass appeal that will bring and have brought people into the hobby. Another classic example of a games which should be in the top 10 would have to be Sushi Go.. How many people have played this and been introduced to drafting? An absolute classic, sold everywhere, a game gamers can play with non-gamers and enjoy
I couldn't see Pictomania or Tsuro being up there, they're not exactly evergreen big sellers.
Luke, I am with you in my dislike of Brass. I am bemused with the efforts people are making to try to boost Brass/Gloomhaven in the race for #1. I never use BGG ratings as a matrix for games that I might buy due to these crazy skewed rankings....
THIS!! Yeah Brass and Gloomhaven should both be out of the Top 10 especially as they are the games with these fanboys going nuts on it.
I also think that asynchronous games should allow you to designate which character you are playing.
I understand your argument but following that logic something like chess would be the undisputed number one game forever
And should it not be at least high up?
Regarding joining entries together is difficult. Take Ticket to Ride, I prefer Europe over USA. I like what Europe does with the stations that opens up the game (and if you want can play it a little less mean). My rating for these games are different because of the differences.
Then average them all together perhaps? I don't know, but I can't see how a small tweak to Europe would make you hate USA, it's still Ticket to Ride at the end of the day, and funny enough I actually like Europe the least because not only do you have those annoying luck filled tunnels, but I don't like the Stations as it means no-one fails a ticket.
@@TheBrokenMeeple Decided to look at my bgg ratings for the games. I actually don’t have a rating for Ticket to Ride (USA) only Europe. Europe 9 USA would be 8. I know 1 is nothing in the great scheme of things. This is another problem with Ratings by the general public as a whole; my rating of Europe is wrapped up in Nostalgia. I had this game a long time before I knew about board games (this and Monopoly is what I had - before Disney Villainous busted the doors down). Therefore the memories made with the game (including who bought me the game) and knowing I had a real game before I knew it all effect my rating. My rating is personal to me and not that useful for anyone else.
The stations make the game less mean but I have never seen someone win the game by using them. Why I prefer Europe seeing all the places I have been on the map (and all the places I want to go). Again my Europe rating is higher because I have traveled little parts of Europe by Train (this is only going to be relevant to me). Also I like the ferries and if I was a reviewer my ideal Ticket to Ride would be Europe without the Stations or USA with ferries.
On a far more important note; thank you for the Roll Player recommendation (about a year ago). Got it at Christmas and it is excellent; I love it. Thank you 😀
The Colin Firth version of P&P is the best!
I think it is better to look at ratings for game genres …like top 20 RPGs. Top 20 networking games… maybe types or mechanisms.
Comparing box sizes, I want to suggest you always compare with the Wingspan Nesting Box 😁
In terms of extremes! :D
The games I think should be too 10 that aren’t would be Ticket to Ride (for the reasons you gave) and Lords of Waterdeep. I’ll admit I really like Waterdeep but it’s not in my top 5. It’s a game that draws in DND fans and is pretty easy to learn (at least on the app).
Gloomhaven would be my #1 but it’s too heavy to be #1. I also agree that JotL should be included as the same game. I know it’s a game you don’t care for but the most fun I’ve had playing a game is with Gloomhaven
At least on Gloomhaven we agree on combining the two as they are just the same game, one just fixed the issue of bloatness and ease of entry.
Yeah the top 100 is a tough subject. It is hard to give it too much credit, as anyone in the hobby understands, but it is also forward facing for people who don't know much about the hobby. I've heard a story of someone who used it to buy their gamer family member Gloomhaven bc it was (is, lol) the "#1 game". Obviously, I think most gamers know that is not a game to gift lightly..
I'd assume results going by the "number of votes" for games instead of rank generates a list that is probably more in line with the type of list you'd prefer for a top 100. Games that are more representative/ forward facing in the hobby.. But at the same time, that person who was gifting games to their hobby family member may not want Carcassone or TTR as a gift (as they might already have it, or it might be somethething that person isn't interested in).
Games really are like art. Everyone has a different taste and will regard different works at different levels. Though, that fact doesn't make its popularity right or wrong. However, I can sympathize; having something that you don't connect well with taking such a public, cornerstone role in a major aspect of your life can be frusturating. But I guess at the end of the day, it is just a game.
Stay well, Luke.
There's no easy solution sadly, I'd rather they just scrapped rankings and kept the site as a good database with forums. But yeah I've heard about people doing that with Gloomhaven and that's the big issue - it's misleading. Anyone unfamiliar with the hobby will take that list as gospel. However there's still die-hard gamers who take the list as gospel because their favourite games are on it. I bet you money if Ark Nova gets to #1 - all the haters who are sad to see Brass surpassed will cry out that the system doesn't work.
Happy to see Fizzie in the background! However, it breaks my heart to hear of your sadness around Valentine's Day. Glad you played some games and had a good time though.
Another great show today! Humorous, thought provoking, genuine... and that great Luke-level energy is back in full swing!
Thanks Donna, first to mention it and yeah, fluids permitting, it's good to be back in action! :D
Could BGG use a starter game list and how do kick starters get on the list and a list for RPG'S
The BGG top 100 is pretty much meaningless to me at this point, I mean I gave both Ark Nova and Terraforming Mars a 5 out of 10, but they're ranked 4th and 6th respectively. I'm not saying those games are trash, I just don't like them. So what if the number 1 ranked game is something you don't care for? Who cares? Popularity has nothing to do with quality, especially the individualistic measurement of it.
Eventually more people will realise not to take them so seriously. Also AN is not a 5! Lol! :P
Like it or not (and I don’t play it anymore) but Magic the Gathering should be number one if all the geeks voted on it. I agree Ticket to Ride should be top as well. BGG is just the playground for geeks. I just use it similar to you; for info, rules updates/questions, and the files section to pick up for instance the ARNO bot for Ark Nova or new scenarios for Undaunted. The rest is rubbish.
Indeed and yeah MTG would be a serious contender for the Top 10 in my version.
Still playing Decrypto and still thinking it’s a great game (deserves to be in the top 100 for me personally)
I don't agree about disallowing different versions of a game having a separate entry. It's a grey area of course, but clearly different seasons of Pandemic Legacy, for example, are different to each other (no bias here I haven't played any of them). I don't like Marvel movies, but I don't think that on imdb they should all be given a single rating and filed under 'Miscellaneous Marvel movies', much as that's my opinion of them.
The legacy games are a tough call but for non legacy games there is a lot of blatant ones.
@@TheBrokenMeeple To be fair, I think I misinterpreted your opinion. Correct me if I'm wrong, but your bugbear isn't about different versions of a game having their own rating, it's about their multiple respresentation in the ranking. But the ranking is just some arbitrary rules applied to put games in some sort of order (why anyone would directly compare games like that is a bit of a mystery anyway, you could probably rank fruit in a similar way but it wouldn't make a banana better than a pineapple just because the numbers said so). Preventing multiple versions in the rankings seems like just another arbitrary rule to add to the pile. It's best not to worry about it too much I suppose.
And besides, bananas are better than pineapples.
That's more what I mean. Eclipse for example is represented twice in the top 100 as is gloom haven and technically Brass.
Lol just checked the rankings of my collection. Of our 55 game collection, 8 are in the top 100, 10 are ranked between 101-500. 7 ranked between 501-1000. Yes I have a a fair amount of family/kid games but that’s still a large portion of our collection not in the top 1000 and I don’t consider our collection a crappy set of games lol goes to show how much I pay attention to the ranks though lol I look at them but hold very little stock in the number.
Perfect! 👌😊
enjoyed the podcast. always interesting to hear other creators talking about their analytics
Glad that doesn't bore too many people then! :P
Yeah, multiple editions of the same game in the top 100 makes no sense. Brass became #1 again by Gloomhaven getting a ton of 1 ratings. This is not even funny anymore. Obsession is great, even people not caring for the theme like it. You could have Dobble or Uno in the top 10 if you count sold copies. I love Ticket to Ride. I don't understand how Carcassonne is only ranked 200. I have played 21 games currently in the top 100 and I only want to try another 12. That's says a lot.
I don’t agree about games like TTR (or Monopoly!) being in the top 10 games. Think of it like cars. Something like the Mclaren F1 may be the best car of all time. However I’ll never get close to driving it, and it would be useless for me as a car as it would cost too much to run on a daily commute and would not have the boot space needed. Those with a keen interest or knowledge of an activity will have a different view to the common man on the street and I think BGG reflects that.
I do agree on multiple editions, or other versions that are basically map packs. I’d also like to see an adjusted average that re-rates games based upon the reviewers own ratings as I don’t think we see consistency amongst scores from people. I rate very few games a 9 or 10 and for me a 7 is a good game and a 6 is decent. Others think anything at 6 or less is unplayable.
Agree to disagree on the first part, but yeah multiple editions need to be sorted. That way we'd get rid of Eclipse 1.5, Jaws of the Lion, TTA 3rd edition, TI 3rd edition, Brass Birmingham, all sorts.
Hahahaha logging plays, so true. We were sooo diligent logging and then suddenly we constantly forget. The time struggeling and fidgeting with the BGG app is not really worth. Its not accurate anyways...
Quick games quickly rise to like 10/20+ plays while longer plays will maybe be 5 plays but in hours we spent more time on those longer games in total.
Yeah half of me doing it was to appease trolls and I can't stop now.
Plenty of issues with BGG and attitudes there, and the petty review bomb downvoting merely indicative of those wider issues.
Yeah I mean we can't trust most ratings of the Top 10 honestly.
Yea, the attitudes of many members, but especially admins, are hugely problematic.
LOL i log my plays but only who I played with.
Best game for two star-crossed players: I guess this is it
Best thing about V day: heart shaped pizza. That’s it.
Re. Collaborations - there is a small channel, Tablenauts, not sure if you are familiar with them. The two guys on it are very likeable and entertaining, might be an idea to reach out to them
Not heard of them but thanks!
The site (as in, the users) also has a heavy bias towards eurogames. Less than 20 games from the top 100 are non-euros (and some are euroish). There's only 1 CCG, 2 LCG and 0 wargames.
BGG has many big problems and flaws; and no impetus to fix or improve them. That's almost always an issue when there is no real competition, and no internal checks and balances. I would not care if it wasn't for the fact that many publishers treat it as their one stop information/download location; endorsing and propping up its hegemony. Unfortunately many mediocre heavy games find undeserved success as a result of BGG's flawed system and biases, while many very good to excellent mid and lighter weight games that deserve great success get lost in their rating system.
Yeah, with no competition, what do they care?
Nice to hear a man admitting that valentines can be hard for them too! Glad to hear you had a good evening playing games though 🙂
Thanks Claire! Appreciate it! 💖
I'll take it one further: Gloomhaven is not a board game. It is a game, but not a board game. Magic The Gathering is a card game and really has no place in a board game list. The board game hobby is it's own thing, just like wargames (tabletop miniatures battles or hex maps and chits 'n' charts) is it's own thing. We certainly do not include Role Playing games as part of the Board Game hobby, as they are two entirely different things. It's too late to divide these very different types of games on BGG and it's unfortunate that "board game" is watered down to include other types of games (dexterity games? Yikes.). Now, who decides what game should be in what category is another whole can of worms. People argue about what qualifies as a sport and we will likely do the same in our (superior) pastime!
What a joy your proposal would be. Endless, subjective arguments about what qualifies as a "board game" and what does not. Shall we appoint you the Czar of deciding this?
How is gloomhaven not a board game? 🤣. It's made of cardboard and plays like 100 other dungeon crawl board game Kickstarters which have come out in the last 5 years
Lipstick on a pig! That's Brass: Birmingham for you!
Lol 😅
Board game “geek”. If we are going by world wide mass appeal, play counts and sales, it would be Monopoly, Risk, Trouble, Sorry, Scrabble and Checkers…
not quite, I mean, where was the mass appeal for something like Sorry? And it's not just simply a case of comparing sales figures, though with modern games that should be at least looked at. Most modern games aren't massive sellers, so for one game like TTR to transcend everything for the last 19-20 years is impressive.
Nice one Luke, will be listening to this in a minute - excited for your top 10 2-player player games, I play a good chunk of my gaming sessions 2-player
Hope you enjoy it! Top 10 starts on Tuesday, the next one has already been recorded.
i use bgg mostly to check on issues with a game, player counts, and solo modes. as far as deciding what is or isnt the best game of all time, i find the masses more unreliable than the website lol. people are far more likely to play a bad 20 dollar game than an amazing 100 dollar game. it just is what it is, and no matter how much they pay they will do their best in most cases to justify the purchase.
i dont care for GH, AT ALL, i dont get the fascination with a slow monotonous dungeon crawl that cant figure out what it is lol. effeciency puzzle? with random miss cards? lol. that said, it has a lot of fans, most of which probably use BGG so it makes sense it ranks that high. i wouldnt rank Ark Nova as high as #4 on my shelf let alone of all time, but again people like it and most of its fans likely use BGG so i can see why its ranked so well. Heat will be in the top 100 by this time next year. not saying its not a great game, top 100 of all time? nah.
the best way to rank these games would be to break them down into categories imo. either by weight or genre, something, and as you suggested combine games of the same title. unfortunately BGG is making money these days so any passion that once existed is long left for the bank at this point. none of the changes are likely to ever happen
Interesting read - I actually would not be surprised if Heat did end up in the Top 100, it's got wide appeal, easy to play, easy to teach, has extra modules within the box for good replay value, a super easy AI solo system and is highly regarded. I'd sooner see it in that list then something like Gloomhaven.
I don't agree with you. That is called Board Game Geek Ranking. If geeks are praising niche gaimes I'm ok with that. I don't care whether it is Gloomhaven, Brass, Ark Nova, whatever. This is made by community votes and if community praises those games - fine. If you want a ranking that is good for the whole industry maybe consider creating Board Game Casual Ranking that excludes heavy geek games. I think this might be cool.
Btw. I played Decrypto recently and that was fun.
Clearly your superpower is the ability to drive down game ratings by yelling at them.
Ha ha if only, plus I wouldn't have the voice capacity! :P
Very difficult to have such a subjective and hype driven hobby end up with anything "accurate" when anyone can just vote a score.
Ultimately there is no way to ensure those who vote own a game unlike Steam for video games so inherently it's open to abuse and anything you account for via algorithms will not really help.
Overall BGG is a rough guide where you need need to consider the genre .. I personally don't enjoy Euros but lots of people do. BGG does have filters for this but I feel it could do with some more options. Same for Weight.. I do find it useful but I'm not looking at it at such a granular level just what do people who have played it think it is which is better than a single reviewers opinion.
Also be careful what you wish for.. If BGG suddenly became perfect then who would watch your Top 10 videos :).
Ha ha, i guess we can allow a "small margin of error" :P
I disagree on your point about splendor, TTR and Catan should being at top game of all time. By your logic monopoly should be #1 because everyone played it and everyone can aproach it. BBG rating is not perfect i agree with that. It was for geeks hence why name of the site. We shouldnt blame such people want to play more crunchy titles. Ofc these days geek mean nothing, because everyone watch comic book movies or enjoy their star wars.
I disagree on your notion that every pandemic is the same... Like Rome? I know you want to hammer point but some your examples is hit or miss. Another editions fix or broke some stuff and that's nature of this editions. Its to hard to judge if game changed enough to justify new Item on the top list.
I feel Like your top games should be approachable games. I dont agree, some games are great and deserve to be #100 even tho they are harder to approach.
Not because everyone can play it and everyone can approach it, but even to this day, Monopoly still sells. Families still buy the various spinoffs. Yes I hate the game, but it still makes money hence game stores still stock the thing. But I'm supposed to allow a £150 niche Euro-dungeon crawl in a crate box that can't even be fully played by most people be regarded as #1 of all time? And Rome pandemic wasn't that far off, it's still cubes spreading on a line map and you can't let it go overboard, there's just another victory condition and a couple of tweaks.
The coffee brought me in
Great podcast Luke! So glad you mentioned Fog of Love. Such an underrated game. BTW, BGG is perfect just the way it is. Thx!
It's a good database, not a good rating system.
@@TheBrokenMeeple Sure, but there is no good rating system. Across the scope of board games, there are too many game design variables to consider (e.g. complexity, number of players, art, story, interaction, fun-ness, etc, etc) and a very broad range of values within each of those variables (e.g. Uno to On Mars) not to mention an incredibly diverse group of people that have there own likes/dislikes. You could never develop an algorithm that would take all that into account and weight everything appropriately to create a rating/ranking system that would ever be viewed as "correct" by anywhere close to a majority of individuals. Even with all the flaws, I think the BGG rating serves the purpose for the people that use the site and bother to rate the games. They understand and take into account the inherent biases. To me it feels a little like tilting at windmills to crusade against something that really doesn't have a good answer and probably can't even be made all that much "better" since there'd be no agreement on what constitutes "better". Just my ¢¢.
I love your hate your brass being number one yet in the same breathe you say comments like... things about "the game opinions are more than just the individual. Think about other people's thoughts about it"
I've never played brass but this seems a bit of hypocrisy
Not quite - consider the wording in detail. I hate Brass and can still dislike it being high. But my one opinion as a die hard gamer shouldn't factor in on its own to the ranking system. We gamers are a niche group, but games are available to all, but those voices aren't heard because they won't subscribe to a database website. So I bet if they did, there would be a massive uplift of games from further down. When I say "think about others thoughts", I'm talking about those outside of our niche group.
Yes. I agree - Ticket to ride should be number 1.
Or Stone Age.
Five tribes
What about it?
You ask what game I would like to see in the top ten and I picked five tribes, for it teacher's set collection and a puzzle to plan movement and rule-backing abilities