Pin Down Layouts = BAD?? | BrunsNick
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- Опубликовано: 15 сен 2024
- Since the USBC has banned balance holes, did that make pin down layouts on SYMMETRICAL balls bad? I'm here to find out what a pin down layout does to a ball I had immediate success with using a pin up layout.
Original Layout from DV8 Chill video - 60x4.5x20
Pin Down Layout - 60x4.5x75
Let me know whether or not you still use pin down layouts on symmetrical core balls or are they too condition specific to be usable without the benefit of the balance hole?
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It's bowler and condition specific. For high ball track players, everything you say is right, since you are one of them. I'm a lot lower track bowler. I have two 900 Global Aspects, one pin up, and one pin down. Both are 4x4x2, and the pin down ball uses and inverted PAP. That is, it's over my usual 3 11/16, but instead of up 1 1/8, it's down 1 1/8. That pin down ball for me blends the cliff on fresh house shot, and has excellent continuation through the pin deck, with very few corner pins, as well as a smooth motion at the break point. The standard pin up ball goes straighter until it breaks, then has a fairly sharp break. It is real good after the lanes are broken down. I think ball track and method of making it pin down make a big difference. Like so many variables in bowling, what is good for one is not necessarily good for another.
Pin down on symmetrical is really good for shorter patterns, so you can play straighter for longer. If you're rev challenged and can't chase left, a pin down would be a great transition ball.
I agree with your statement that pin down layouts on symmetric balls is a bad idea for the majority of bowlers, however, I think you were overly harsh. I personally love pin down layouts, even on symmetrics. I tend to have a hard time getting the ball to retain energy down the lane. Pin up layouts tend to burn up for me and roll forward. Pin down retains more energy and actually shapes down lane.
Are you super high tilt?
@@brunsnick Yeah fairly high
My shop proprietary PAP coordinate and layout system uses the thumbhole as the fulcrum of the layout. With the concept being, the thumbhole is the PSA on symms, and PSA positions greater than or less than 90 degrees from the X-axis will tend to raise the RG and consequently reduce the total diff, as well as less overall post-drilling asymmetry on the RG plane that intersects the PAP. Which is say, pins at 90 degrees to the thumbhole on symms tend to have a stronger/quicker breakpoints, and pin-thumb less than or greater than 90 degrees tend to be more controllable and have less backend motion. Bowtie and track flare management become an issue for certain players when the pin is either very far or very close to the thumbhole.
Not sure what this video will show but I have a funny story, I drilled a pin up Madness, love it. Drilled a pin down Madness for Nationals. Figured I'd practice with it in league.......first shot...7-10. Took it to nationals......first shot.....7-10. Needless to say that ball has 2 shots on it, not 2 games, 2 shots only. Coincidentally I drilled a Trail Blazer for Nationals pin down. Same thing, practice shot in league, 7-10. That ball didn't make the trip to Nationals. Now the down Power Torq I have.....love it. Worked well in league and first game in Team Event. After that though, a bit too early.
Pin down layouts work the best for me. I bowl on wood lanes and typical house shot. I have a lower ball speed and pin up layouts tend to be very over under for me, while pin down layouts are much more forgiving. Everyone's situation is different. I wouldn't rule out pin down layouts. Nick provides some really good information regarding the difference. Let your ball reaction on your lanes guide you as to what might work best. Knowledge and understanding is power.
Most of my Asymmetric balls are pin down and they work great. I haven’t tried pin down on symmetrical stuff, but it looks controllable when playing tighter angles. I might try it with my next symmetrical ball, nice video!
I personally am around 325-350 rev rate and arguably my favorite resin ball this past season was the orange DV8 Verge solid. It was pin down 45 x 4.5 x 70. I am on the left and I have about 19 degrees axis tilt so sometimes I struggle with balls being too forward and/or erratic off the spot. I do however tend to use pin down solely on those stronger symmetrical balls with low RG and high differential.
I recently decided that anything i get with a diff over 40 im going pin down.
Good stuff Nick. I really appreciate your expertise on these subjects.
I agree with the specific use on sym pin down layouts. I have one a GB4 pearl at 45x4x65. As a mostly matched, sometimes slightly speed dominate bowler it's a sport/challenge pattern killer for me. Allows me to play the track behind my big asymmetrical solid once it hooks too much. Almost a lefty don't move your feet trick for right handers. I then transition from the pin down to a move left angular ball to end the night. Only issues I see on the video is using it on transitioning lanes instead of fresh. Also not sure if it was a house pattern was used as the only time I've used it on house pattern was when even twists and tropical surges were hooking the whole lane.
Dear Mr. Nick. Thanks for the video. I use pin down and have good success. This works well for me on dry to medium oil.
my favorite layout is rico, because im reb dominant and every ball on the market now hooks regardless of the volume. I just need it to slow down the transition to the roll after it sees friction. Most of the houses in my area is flat and short. around 39ft. not much buffer. its easier urethane or pin down layouts to blend out the patterns. When you are even in rev/speed and have normal easy oiled house shots, then pin up is where you wanna go. its all just pattern/ bowler dependent of course.
Enjoyed this and your other videos, Nick. I have previously used pin down layouts on symmetrical cores (with balance holes) but understand now based on this video why it's not a good idea any longer.
Assuming that with asymmetrical cores, then pin up and pin down drillings are still useful, depending on the type of roll or ball reaction you are looking for.
Most of my current arsenal is symmetric cores but looking to get new balls with asymmetric cores and wondering what my drilling options should be.
Thank you in advance and I really enjoy your videos.
Asyms still good to go! They actually look much better for most lower speed players too.
That's me...slower speed...I am best from 15.5 to maybe 16.5 mph although I am on the higher end of that range with my new C300 Cuda Pearl ( what a ball!!!) I need some options to replace some older asyms (currently have C300 Baller and Swerve) . The Baller is pin up above the bridge and at times I like it, other times not so much. It also picks up a lot of lane shine, I just can't keep it at the factory matte/dull finish. Any suggestions on how to keep the lane shine off of it without putting it on the ball spinner every other week? Thanks again.
No way around that unfortunately.
@brunsnick thanks again. It's funny how some balls stay dull and others pick up lane shine really easily.
@@garyfleming8963 they’re all trying to find a median surface by rolling on the lane. Shiny balls are closer to the surface they’re on so they don’t change compared to a dull ball at say 1000-1500
I like getting pin down drillings every now and then vs everything been drilled pin up
I don't use pin down layouts much, I'd rather make surface adjustments or drill something else.
I drilled a pin down Knock Out Bruiser and Melee Carbon and that combo was the best combo for me all season. Maybe it’s being left handed but I still believe in pin down symmetrical balls
It's not that surprising to me.
With the elimination of weight holes, I've only liked pin down on balls that have stronger cores (low rg/higher diff + some cores seem to rev easier). The Melee/Knockout core fits the criteria for me.
Nick’ 1:01 I never use pin down on Symmetrical balls.
Asymmetrical I do.
11:59 speed 17.2 down to 16.1-16.2 I totally believe your right about the pin down I. Todays alleys. The last time I did a pin down was 8 years ago. Of course side weight was there. Great video. But 1 thing was missing?
One shot from a pin up would have sealed the deal. X love this ball. Buying it next week
I use pin down alot for two reasons, I like that earlier roll and more controll hook for the way I throw, and I leave a lot less wash outs. Plus with the pin down you do get as much as a sling shot when the ball jumps off the pattern. Which too much angle like that can also be worse since it takes more energy away from the ball to make that sharp turn then a more gradual motion. And I find having more control on those tough sports patterns is much better.
Also isn't that why you have different surfaces and grits and surfaces to control length
It depends on the bowler and pin placement.
Question: Could a pin-down ball be used to train yourself to be more consistent. If you can throw nice shots with this ball, wouldn’t you score better with a more useful ball?
I mean sure, you could.
For me, pin down and pin up controls how fast the ball transitions. If you need the ball to get up and go fast, get a ball designed to do that, drill it to do that and then use it when you're supposed to. If you want to control the transition, either go pin down to tighten up the flare or use surface, but don't be the person who wrecks the shim because 500 grit is the only way you can get any control on a house shot. You know who you are!
If I had a double thumb layout on a ball and plugged it, will it roll similar or change the roll completely?
Completely different.
Most of my equipment is pin up, but I drilled a Hammer Envy Tour pin down for the purpose of having a strong yet controllable ball in my arsenal. It does exactly what I want it to do, and I have an Ebonite Envision Pearl to switch to once the Envy starts to burn up.
This video will focus on symmetrical core balls only.
Would pin down layouts be more beneficial for rev dominant players?
New Pearl Cuda next, please. I loved that ball when it first came out back in the 90's. Can't wait to see the new one with that HK 22 Cover.
Completely agree, I’m at 6-7 degrees of tilt and track higher up on the ball and I’ve never found much success on pin down layouts. Never really understood why though. Would also be very much interested in the why or if a pin down on an asymmetric core would be good/bad
Could work better but you may need to use much smaller drill angles so you get that mass bias towards your VAL.
@@brunsnick Very interesting since most of the layouts I'd say are my best use a higher drilling angle i.e. 65 x 5 x 35. Doesn't swinging the mass bias closer to the VAL cause the ball/core to pick up sooner?
@@jeremiegrund not always, but if you’re using a pin down layout, you need the ball to respond quicker and a lower VAL will do that.
@@brunsnick Really appreciate you taking the time to provide this kind of insight. Thank you so much!
My fav ball in my bag is d idol helios pin down. And i use it for shorter oil patterns usually playing in d track area.
I drilled it specifically for this purpose. Love pin down on this ball only.
But as u said moving in with this ball is a nightmare.
Another excellent, very informative video Nick, now I know why I hate my pin down Storm Axiom. I normally have pin up layouts but I bought the Axiom used for $80 and it just needed the thumb plugged and re-drilled, I figured a no brainer since NIB are still going for $229.00 The pin down Axiom is my most unpredictable ball I have, even pocket hit strikes sound like a dud, I'm thinking of having it plugged and re-drilled pin up. I ordered a DV8 Hellcat XLR8 from my local pro shop, I think I'll throw that first before I spend another $80 trying to fix the Axiom. I'm always trying to think of good names for bowling balls, how about DV8 Brutal Awakening, Radical Katana Scepter, Brunswick Conviction, Hammer Raucous, DV8 GENR8?
Off topic, but i'd love to see a IQ Tour Ruby vs Tundra Fire comparison. The numbers are very similar, and they're both advertised as dry lane condition balls, and heck do they look the same too.
I still use pin down layouts. I an low speed low rev (max out 310). Also have a high track and about 9⁰ of tilt. Obviously I am more up the back of the ball. My pin down Stealth solid is my money ball for Symmetricals.
I'm a huge fan of a pin down on my zen on fresh house shots. You definitely can't go very deep with it though.
For added perspective though, I threw my high house series with a pin up raw hammer solid :D
My pin down balls all flare 5" or more with wide separation. My attitude control flares the most, almost 7" . The only exception is my pin down obsession tour pearl. That flares less than 2" . Everything else is incredibly early and versatile. The closer the pin gets to center of grip, the earlier the balls get. My attitude control and danger zone are drilled the same and they hook at 35' buy I can play big angles on dryer conditions and in heavy short oil they allow me to play much straighter than my pin up stuff. Some of my pin up stuff can only be used in heavy oil left of 3rd arrow or lofting the gutter in dryer conditions.
phase two pin under index is my best all around ball. pin up phase two is also great.
Can’t you shorten pin distance to compensate for the lack of balance hole?
I suppose to make it flare some more but the xtra hole did a lot more for making more asymmetry
pin down is definitely the way to go for most solid bowling balls for me. i almost exclusively drill my solids pin down now. and they strike almost non stop
Mo said if you drill pin down, bring your spare ball. 😁
I think maybe your game may not see the use of a pin-down layout on a symmetrical ball, but I'm a down-and-in lefty with high speed (18.5-19.5 on the screen, 17.5 when slowing myself down). The pin-down layout allows me to play the same area of the lane when my C300 Savage starts burning up. My Phaze4 hits like a truck with a pin-down layout.
I just trust my PSO with the layout but i am always fascinated by the science of bowling.
I throw it 16mph maybe 375 rev rate so I can make a ball hook but not a cranker by any means!! I love pin down layouts!! I drill my first of every ball pin down (work in proshop so drill a lot).. really creates a cleaner and smoother reaction for the conditions I bowl on…they are great from straighter angels and I have no isssue bending them… wish we still had extra holes but I’ve made adjustments to drill angles to make up for it… I use em on everything
On symmetricals though? Drill angles won’t really matter there.
Back when balance holes were allowed, I had a ball with the pin on/near PAP. Symmetric and medium cover. That ball worked great for me on burned-up sport shots. This was before the re-emergence of urethane. Wondering what would be best if I wanted to get something to fill that slot today.
Can still use the same layout with a mild symmetrical for burn. RAW Hammer Hybrid would be a good pick.
Yeah...I have a pin down sym and I hate when I have to use it early since it becomes a 10 pin practice session.
But I love it once the lanes break down a bit. **this is with the Badger Infused 70/30 so it's a bit of an oddball already lol
Uh I use/love my symmetrical Primal Shock pin-down and have none of the issues you mentioned..
what if you use a ball with a low diff like a rattler?
Might not flare much at all for me.
@@brunsnick so definitely won't work for me. PAP is 6 1/4 over 3/4 up
Could you do a video on asymmetricals ?
Sure. Why not.
That's super interesting! Love the scientific method you're using. I love that you call yourself an "average bowler", that may be true but I hate what that makes me, lol.
Just average in terms of my rev rate these days. 😎
I have some pin down balls and one is a hyroad x and it is pin down under middle finger and it has wide flare rings like a pin up ball . And same with my hammer Statement solid pin down under bridge and mb kicked out to the left . But I track near my thumb . But I don't know my pal / revs / tilt but I do have a 17-18 mph ball speed .
For most ppl it won’t be great unless you’re looking for a specific reaction
thats what he said.
As long as there is separation between the oil rings (so the ball isnt rolling over oil), is there actually a big difference between tight flare rings and ones that are spaced out?
Yes absolutely.
I've learned over time that pin down Asymmetric balls are complete turds for me. Pin down Symmetrical balls are hit-or-miss, but usually miss. This is especially true for solids.
So pin down is getting closer to short pins in that they are nichey (if that is a word) and very condition specific. But I wonder how this would work for two handers since there is no thumb hole.
Most 2 handers never use pin down layouts.
I just shot 299 tonight with my pin down GB2 and have a 300 with it. So I’d say it works for me.
😂
Why are your finger holes placed as such? All i ever see is they are both drilled horizontal to the thumb.
Sarge Easter Grip - welcome to the channel, be sure to subscribe!
ruclips.net/video/Ax8H7MisJms/видео.htmlsi=1cgH_YN8l4198NzG
ruclips.net/video/dAbFCPtqD-8/видео.htmlsi=JXJ6Qx5Ym5zbyIDK
I only use it on asyms I have a pretty high track so it's cutting it close but they do have a place in the arsenal
It looks like it rolled really nice. Maybe just not the rite ball for that pattern?
How do you determine which balls will be good when drilled pin down?
Typically I will only consider pin downs on asymmetrical balls.
@@brunsnick Tomorrow I am about to drill the Brunswick Knockout (dark color) pin down
What happens if you drill the balance hole and then plug it? Is there enough difference in the density/weight of the original ball vs the plug material to see a difference??
Not really no. Radical tested this. ruclips.net/video/2IBWRxR6G78/видео.html
@@brunsnick I thought there was a video....guess I should have used that search function first. :)
Am i correct that with an asym pin down the intermediate dif is what makes it work?
Yes, the mass bias influences the ball motion whereas the mass bias in a drilled symmetrical ball (with 2 fingers and a thumb) will always end up in the thumbhole.
Love your videos and the information you bring with it.
What do you think of stacked layouts?
Would love to see a video based on that.
The CG location is irrelevant.
@@brunsnick Thanks for your reply, I am aware the CG does not matter but I would really love to see the difference on the lanes from a visual standpoint compared to Pin Up as you did with the Pin Up vs the Pin Down Layouts. If you could, that would be great.
I have found that pin down "big" symmetricals can be great control balls.
I used to have some strong asymmetrical balls with pin down layouts and balance holes back in the day that were very good. I also had some symmetrical balls with balance holes before they changed the rules. The first ball I ever threw a 300 with, was a radical rave that initially had a balance hole with a pin up drilling, and was plugged. All the balls I use currently are all pin up. I do prefer symmetric to asymmetric. The only asymmetric in my arsenal right now is a hammer 3-D offset.
I am finding that I better match up with pin up symmetricals.
I have a web tour hybrid, 60x4x60 that I really like. Use it as a Benchmark.
So what you’re saying is having a rev rate of 480-500 is the reason why I love my pin down stealth?? Lol
I had a Crypto that was Pin up. I changed it to a longer pin down layout because it was garbage with a high pin.
I got one not using it bcoz of the lane condition.
Can I ask why there is a drill hole at the top of the grips? Never understood why that hole is drilled... Thanks in advance.
It’s a vent hole for my ring finger.
@@brunsnick A Vent Hole? I have never heard of a vent hole being drilled... is that legal to do on tour?
Yes. And vent holes have been around many many decades, though not super common.
@@brunsnick just asked my proshop guy... and he's said no one has ever asked for a vent hole to be drilled ... he's been there for 5 years.. so it must be not very common at all... thanks for the reply.
It allows for a much snugger fit without popping.
Around South East Asia here, many bowlers including veteran Proshop drillers having religious believe that pin down is more hooking than pin up ball and its for heavy oil 😂
Old school beliefs for sure!
Pin down ball is only good when ur bowling on a 45 foot house shot that hooks to much when their no oil! cuse my bowling alley I bowling in in florida for fun league they don't oil it very much so no hold in the middle part of the lain so when u need more roll in the back end pindown helps! more hook and weeker! pinup more hook and stronger into the oil when the lain is oil and fresh
What about using mo’s suggestion of the deep thumb?
That works better with pin up layouts where you drill through a denser mass towards the belly of the core.
whats your rev rate with no sarge easter grip?
About the same.
I have a high track with low tilt, and pin down layouts normally track over the thumb hole. The one exception was a Vibe Envy that had the pin between ring finger & PAP. I shoulda kept that ball. 🎳 😎
You seem to not like it but it rolls better than what you say it does :P I have about the same RPM as you, but more speed, and i drilled my old Messenger Ti short pin (1 inch). After at least 700 games, it still hooks a ton. Anyway. To illustrate pin-up pin-down differences you would need to compare side by side that shots of the 2 balls on the same conditions. CTD also did a video on this and they differences were very small. Sometimes you couldn't even tell which ball was which. Bottom line is that only elite players will (maybe) consistently "see" the difference. The 99% rest of us, will see it on one shot, then not see it on another etc, because every other small deviation in technique (for example RPM, SPEED) will have a much larger impact on the ball motion. For example in this video, SPECTO, measured for you these RPM values : 335, 322, 347, 325, 345, 358, 348, 359, 335, 346, 348, 353, 347. And that is the variance only of the RPM. It is not easy to draw real conclusions unless the experiment is done in a scientific way (with EARL too).
Yes the ball still struck some, and was easy to get to the pocket. But I don’t need ThroBot to tell me that this pin down ball didn’t get through the pins nearly as well as the pin up version posted 2 weeks ago. ruclips.net/video/a01O1nZI3lM/видео.html
@@brunsnick I hear you. You threw both these balls so you know better. Just pointing out that with so many variables, it is easy to misjudge or to think something plays a bigger role than it really does. That's why science has safety methods to avoid being deceived.
And What about Asymmetrical balls
Much more usable in asym.
Pin down only on asyms
Mr. Nick try to drill a bowling ball in rico hybrid and make a video.
and my best option are in rico layout.
Pin down are good for bowlers with low speed.
Perhaps on asyms.
Pin down is Tha only thing that works for me on house shots lol pin up only work on sport shots lol😮😮❤❤❤❤
Are you tucking your pinky finger
Yes.
Cool tech bowling bowling ball
the balls pin up are more aggresive.
Pin down is weaker layout and has its place. It would take a complete moron to pull it out on fresh oil and then try to play deep inside. Its a great option for later on after things dry up or you loose ball speed from fatigue.
Repeat this with a Stealth then we'll talk.
And what exactly would be different compared to a pin up version?
@@brunsnick Much stronger core than the Chill and stronger cover. I would like to see if the increase in strength that the Stealth represents changes the "in the oil" reaction.
@Jeffery Daniels It won't change.
@@Mainzer74 I disagree since I have used stronger downs for just that effect. Fresh house + weaker cover/core, yeah, it's going to stall in middle oil.
@Jeffery Daniels Interesting I am 18 or so ball speed 500ish Rev rate drilled a GB3 pin down no hole and it was vomit
I usually Iike your stuff, but this content is terrible…..you have a bias going into it and your are self fulfilling your bias. Pin down balls 100 percent have a place in a tournament bowlers arsenal…..
That’s fine, thanks for the critique. 👍🏻
Pin down
Yes