I think I'm going to need a video for 'how to convince my wife that I need no fewer than 3 drones with high-speed cameras to help me evaluate how well I throw a frisbee'. Love what you guys are doing; I'll be hitting some box drills and twilted eagels later today!
They look so different when you are just watching, but when you break it down slow like you have....they are damn near doing the exact same thing at the right time! The rest of it is just personal feel and repetition after repetition! Very much appreciate these types of videos! Very intriguing and informative!
even though it's small, the thing I appreciate most about this video (which lines up with all your other stuff) is the fact that you're starting it out even saying "I don't know how I can teach this" and explain how you're analyzing. Then proceed to give your thoughts and theories based on the knowledge you already have as you're analyzing. This as opposed to the sentiment some form guys have of "I have the truth and no one else has it" or "everyone else is wrong except me!". You aren't selling snake oil, you're trying to find the actual truths just like the rest of us, and pair them with your already great coaching skillset to create this channel. Absolutely goated.
Ezra actually goes beyond 90-deg as well. He mentions this in his video. I tend to think it's a result of what you mentioned here and in your last video in the "active" part of the right arm. And thanks for going through the comparison. It's something that I wanted to try and do, but you, obviously, will do a much better job!
Glad you noticed the “disc slide” as you put it. I started trying to imitate that move of Simon’s recently because holding everything at 90 degrees would always cause my left shoulder to come through way earlier than Simon’s. Simon even mentioned that he noticed Casey White did the same thing but that he didn’t know what it meant.
I’ve heard for so long that the plant foot is the trigger for proper timing, but I guess my understanding was wrong. I was thinking plant then initiate, but these guys are clearly showing that the trailing arm initiates the forward motion at the same time as the plant or even a touch before. These breakdowns are a gold mine of information.
Or the thing that triggers the left arm to move in also triggers the forward motion. I focused on getting my left arm in but would always revert when I focused on anything else. Then when I focused on keeping my body moving forward (i.e. not swinging before my weight was forward enough), I was suprised to see my left arm tucking into my body -- I had no recollection of doing it. shrug
I like the idea of comparing Simon and Drew's form in the way that you are. Your analysis is very much appreciated. Go watch Simon's most recent video, vlogmas day 12. Specifically, Simon's drive on the their final hole of that round.... It is probably the best footage I've seen of a disc golf drive ever. I wish they would have measured it. It was incredible!
I love this. So much of what you do shows me I'm getting caught up in inefficiencies from "technique" videos I saw when I started playing more regularly
...thanx so much for this awsome video... but it is really frustrating to have to think of another tiny bit that obviously matters a lot... Being able to throw at around 350 - with every third shot nosed up or grip locked I don´t know how to handle that much information about run up, angles, power pocket, disc choice, grip, wind...etc... and that´s why I love disc golf so much ;-) - Grüße aus Berlin
I literally can’t even tell you how much watching your videos has helped my distance and accuracy. You’ve also inspired me to create my own channel on social media. Thank you. Is form analysis something you still offer to patreon?
Absolutely amazing. Thankful and grateful for how well you guys break down all of this information. When you say they are gassing it after it reaches the power pocket. That reminds me of the Beto Drill. It's basically a standstill/one-step drill, where you keep the disc at your chest(in the power pocket) then step and accelerate the disc outward. It might help as a reference point into further analysis.
Awesome almost got a par on every hole (18 holes) that's been my goal. I had a birdie on one hole and a bogey on another hole shot par but not that perfect par almost. I think that I owe alot of thanks to your videos they are helping me find my weaknesses thank you #overthrow disc golf
It’s interesting to note the following at 9:30, when you are analyzing Simon’s right arm. Simon’s disc doesn’t “stay” when his left foot hits the ground, it “stays” when his weight transfers
My analysis of the shoulder opening is that the farther from the center of rotation (spine) the disc is, the faster it is moving. Opening the shoulder would slightly increase this radius and thus the speed of the disc out of the hand.
Drew and Simon are good examples, but I personally would love to see this type of analysis with Emerson Keith. His efficiency in his throw is incredible!
Movement in the pocket. My theories on it are at the pocket is where you hit your fast twitch muscle groups, but you have to engage the correct groups for one. Which I think guys like Simon and Drew just naturally figured it out, but as for most pro's, they are not always really sure what they are doing, just that they are doing the right thing. I theorize that part of this helps bring the disc even tighter into the pocket for a little bit more coil in the arm. So, with passive throwing, your goal is to keep the 90's and let the body drive the arm. Easy 400 feet with that method and right disc. 0 effort throwing. When you get into the active engagement in the pocket, its like the off arm. As one thing I've noticed, its not really easy to teach the punch down as every pro does it at slightly different times and slightly different. Then of course you get into Swedish/EU style vs American style. WHOLE different discussion there, though its a fun one. But there is a difference it causes in leverage which is interesting. where was I. Oh yes, So, learning to engage the muscles and when in your timing to start the active part of the swing in the pocket, there really isn't a direct explanation for when and what. And getting that timing together is SUPER important otherwise you'll feel muscle strain and if you've been a "muscle" of a disc golfer for a long time, this process will cause you to muscle the whole swing as well, which is really annoying. My thought is that breaking down the swing backwards will help process this further. As pro's get better and better, the swing gets more and more complex. Which is so much fun. I had a throw I tried for a while that purposefully broke a few rules creating this odd movement in the pocket with a deep pocket method. I got incredible distance from it, but it was more of a muscled throw vs a clean swing. But I think it emulated this movement in the pocket giving some extra coil. Getting deep into the pocket seems to help with spin from my experience as well. I don't think what you know is a lie. I think you're on the path that I am working on though. Which is a lot different from other people teaching out there. As I'll hear people say some really good stuff, then just ruin it with bad terminology or bad understanding of mechanics. It's cool that you have Tennis in your background. I use my baseball and Golf experience to drive a lot of what I'm theorizing and working through. And I actually fixed a lot of my forehand issues with a Tennis forehand video. hahah. The overall similarities you can gain from the sports is important and need to be correlated as best as possible to gain even more understanding of leverage and body mechanics/motion.
@@OverthrowDiscGolf "leverage" hahaha. And. The answer is "wide rail" =) Which is a difficult style. I figured out how Paul does it, but holy crap getting that extra step in your timing is SOOO hard. Wide rail sets you up for deeper pocket. Which from my experience I seem to get more spin/snap on the disc with a wide rail.
What is also of interest is that when at full extension, the disc is not parallel to the body. The foot/body alignment is about 30 degrees apart from throwing arm creating a V. It is all about v’s, in and out, not parallel railroad tracks
What you're NOT seeing here is what separates Drew from the rest. On his maximum power shots, after his foot plant, and before the disc is released, and after the disc hits the real power pocket, Drew extends his plant leg straight. This increases his hip rotation, and thus his torso rotation rate - which is the deciding factor in distance. It also de-weights the plant foot such that it will easily pivot on the heel once the disc is on the way.
I’m a feel person, so looking after their pocket if you focus on the elbows. I believe that’s where they get more than 90. Plus it seems to mean the forearm is in a acute angle maybe 75
I would love to Emerson Keith and/or Seppo Paju. A breakdown of either one would be fascinating because they both have huge power with bent arms. A side by side with Simon or Drew would be an interesting comparison
Question for you: What if the movement out of the power pocket is not a function of the right side at all? That shoulder angle looks like it is a function of the left hip and left arm creating an imbalance which forces a stretch reflex in the right lat around the rear tilted rotational axis created by the right heel. This would then allow the right arm to swing like a trebuchet, with load stretching on the opposite side of the rotational axis. The elbow bending (and moving past 90) would then be an expression of force linearly as it swings behind the rotating arm (hooked to a stable right shoulder being pulled by the right lat) creating a huge stretch reflex through the forearm and wrist. I’m not saying pull back…I’m saying that the mass displacement that the left side provides creates the stretch, and the heel block gives that stretch reflect direction. In this system of stretch,, any movement of the right arm would activate voluntary muscle contraction which would decelerate the system, so trying to move small muscles (like trying to throw the right elbow forward) would be more likely to break the chain of pull from the hips and shoulders and decelerate a system that would naturally accelerate through the finish. Just a thought.
I read it. I understood it. But I don’t know the answer. It could be a byproduct of keeping the right side loose and force expression with the left but I don’t know.
That angle opening up from 90⁰ to like 110⁰ or whatever is, in my opinion (not an expert at all), fast twitch muscle activation which you see in many athletes. They are sooo good at slinging discs and such good athletes in general that they have that timing down and can't activate those fast twitch muscles at the perfect time for extra snap out of the pocket.
Great video. Can you do one on Emmerson Keith and how he can throw so far without being as tall / long armed? His pull back reminds me a bit of Calvin without full extension usually.
As a follow up, I bet most viewers aren't 6 ft or taller so it would be really cool to see if you can find anything that the shorter elite distance throwers are doing to get big distance. I'd expect shorter players would need to fully extend the arm even more, but Emmerson doesn't appear to. It also looks like he drops the elbow, but picks up back up when it matters. It also looks like he slightly curls the wrist in. Calvin, despite being tall, also seems to do these things and Calvin has the highest Precise Power Index rating. Are they just anomalies? Or does this compact form help generate more power and many people are unnecessarily over extending their arm? Maybe avoiding full extension helps take more advantage of explosive power from the muscle stretch-shortening cycle (SSC).
I don't even think the arm is passive into the pocked. Rather, I think the rotation starts first in the hips/core (triggered by the left arm swinging into the body), after which Simon and Drew start accelerating the disc via the right arm into the power pocket. There is a perfect synchronization at the point of the "box's" creation, which makes it seem like the right arm is passive and its movement simply a product of the body's, but really the arm is still moving faster than the body's rotation. As an analogy that might be slightly fictional, picture a speeding vehicle (the arm) moving over a booster (the hip/core rotation) on a race track; both are moving independently but boost off each other at the right moment..
I see what you're saying but have to disagree at this point about active in to the pocket. Granted I am still learning as we get more and more footage, but it is contrary to what I know from other sports.
Additionally, the angle of the disc as he pulls it into his chest. It's not flat which I find interesting. He releases on a bit of a hyzer, but the disc comes into the chest on waaaay more hyzer than that.
Could that right elbow move past 90 be when simon rotates his forearm to get the disc at the right angle for release? Kinda seems like it when i looked at that side view again.
Excellent content. Beautiful to watch the ballet of the throw. So hard to get anywhere near that! Also - Im old! Any plans for old guy learning techniques?
the upper arm goes beyond 90 because the momentum forwards stop, they aren't pulling. 8:27 the momentum has shifted into the projectile already due to the brace/shoulder yank, pushing it straight towards the armpit and for you to reach your armpit the upper arm has to go beyond 90. 8:32 at this point the momentum of the projectile is still going straight but by this time he has rotated enough that the elbow is now in the line instead of the armpit pushing the upper arm even more beyond 90 since the momentum is now faster than his rotation. 8:33 the shoulder is now technically going backwards acting as the whip yank and the momentum line is slightly past the elbow making the momentum go on an arc around the elbow due to it being "stuck" at the end of the forearm lever, escalating it to insane speeds because of the same momentum having to take on the arc instead of a straight line basically he is so lose and have such good timing he literally uses his body and brace as a trebuchet with a touch of whip action to further enhance the speed of the sling. you can never do that by pulling. now imagine if had that ricky wysocki finger strength and could pivot the disc around is finger to make even one more arc at that speed 😅 this wasn't full power and im pretty sure he does that already on longer throws 10:44 he controls the speed with longer or shorter end strides into the brace. more forwards momentum=longer stride=more time to coil=further reach=straighter arm=more speed. thats how its so effortless and looks so smooth for him. he has the same timing every time, just at different lengths. he isnt slowing down one part to throw shorter. he is slowing EVERYTHING down keeping the same timing at a smaller scale. thats probably why he can do the speed gun trick so easy (throwing at the speed that gets called out) This all goes to show how important the "smooth is far" saying is and it isnt just a cliche saying. learn your bodies timing at any distance its easiest for you to hit it until it becomes second nature. then you can speed it up by extending the entire timing of your throw, not just one part. have you seen how smooth a trebuchet lobs a projectile even if its a huge mechanical structure? its not a catapult. I recommend every disc golfer watch this ruclips.net/video/8hAX72Xgf1U/видео.html and think of your stride into brace as the counterweight stall and the sling length as your coil/reachback. diferent people have different length slings/limbs and require different length strides/counterweight fixture to time the sling stall and the counterweight stall together
I’ve heard it described as a two-part throw, 1) compressing the left shoulder and hip into the right side, then 2), driving the right shoulder open. Maybe this explains why it’s more than 90? Not sure.
you can just see that little wrist hinging at the peak of the reach back too. not that i'm an expert, but i feel like that's a sort of trigger to start putting weight on the disc. i.e. heavydisc
Very interesting form comparison. Gonna go back to the box drill and your other backhand drills - achieving 400ft (with my assumably slow muscle fibers) in the near future is my dream, 450ft feels unreachable even though I’m very sporty and only in my early 30ties. (I’m the bulky athletic type and my talent is strong legs and endurance, but never been a fast sprinter // I used to have a rather good arm in baseball though, so maybe there’s something)
How's your proggress coming along? 4 months ago I could get past 400 feet only every now and then, I was stuck at that level for over 2 years. Then I started tweaking my form and now my record is 446 feet and I am aiming at 500 in the next couple of years. It's all about form, not so much about muscles!
Question: is Simon pronating his left wrist/forearm when he drives it forward/downward? Looks like it to me, but hard to tell. Seems like this would be a good technique to increase the compression between shoulders and lag of the right arm.
Are their shoulders decompressing to create that larger angle as they unfold from the power pocket? Their shoulders look closer in the power pocket, then broad and straight at release...
As that relates to coaching it could be as simple as "pinching the shoulder blades" to broaden the shoulders, but certainly not something for everyone to try.
I believe that the speed of which the arm is moving is not something that your shoulder rotation can keep up with, so if you are doing the other things properly, then it will look like this.
in.sane....im really intersted to see Ezra's though! has word gotten around enough that you have pros reaching out to you? are do you just cold call them? Or do pros like Simon and Drew tell others?
Something I think you should comment on is Simon's feet. In that side view, you can see that his feet are splayed outward (left foot pointing backward and right foot pointing perpendicular to the target) and not parallel. It's a bit different from your comments on the plant in your footwork video. Not saying you're wrong... just different from what Simon does.
Simon doesn't seem to have a big left arm move. It looks like he just brings his left arm to his side whereas Drew is bringing his left arm across his body. Very different imo.
The disc may not execute in a straight line, but their hands, on the other hand (no pun intended) do seem to execute in a straight line... at least in the sky view angle.
@@OverthrowDiscGolf Seppo actually made a commercial tutorial package, i guess in finnish, wherehe goes through everything he knows, and he had also thought through it (i.e., what os really happening) Havent seen it or ordered, but he would be a good conversation partner in that matter too. Next year?
He still had the link to the web store concrning the instruction on his youtube on november in spain, but not anymore on his latest video from december. edit: For some reason my earlier comment did not appear here. The name of the video was Opi Frisbeegolf and it was commercial, you could buy it and then get a private link, and I guess you could also get some personal instruction from the man himself, if I remember right. I never bought it so i do not know how he did ot technically. His personal web store does not have it anymore, as I checked it. You can get the link from his spain video in finnish from his personal youtube account (perhaps that is why the previous comment did not show up as i wrote that link) Maybe you can reach Seppo via some media to ask to see it, as you teach yourselves(very well, I must say, I have learnt a lot good theory, and how to practice, need to put it into practice though).
"Cause it's a swing" I've been driving this for 2 or 3 years now. The terms we use to describe disc golf in general are poor and not realistic of what you actually need to be doing. Proper language to the swing helps break your mind free of these poor terms which program our mind/body to do all the wrong things vs what we should be doing. Most of the bad terms we use encourage muscling, poor timing and bad footwork. I've fixed peoples swings without lessons, but simply by re-explaining the whole process with better terms for them to process in the overall motions which turn out immediate results with less effort from the golfer. The more that we all popularize proper terminology further and further, the quicker and better everyone will become with less effort from all of us giving lessons and doing form help.
would rather see an analysis of how simon USED to throw his golf shots rather than this new style to prevent injury..... he used to hop and have his left rear delt way forward, you only see it when he wants to throw hard
I think I'm going to need a video for 'how to convince my wife that I need no fewer than 3 drones with high-speed cameras to help me evaluate how well I throw a frisbee'. Love what you guys are doing; I'll be hitting some box drills and twilted eagels later today!
They look so different when you are just watching, but when you break it down slow like you have....they are damn near doing the exact same thing at the right time! The rest of it is just personal feel and repetition after repetition! Very much appreciate these types of videos! Very intriguing and informative!
I'm wondering if 10/11 release point affects nose angle? Im guessing for me it does, as I tend to follow through upwards and pronate my arm.
holy cow ive been studying these videos the last month!
What I loved about this is that I could kind of feel it for my self watching Simon.
Love this and definitely looking forwars to more analysis for advanced players ♥️
even though it's small, the thing I appreciate most about this video (which lines up with all your other stuff) is the fact that you're starting it out even saying "I don't know how I can teach this" and explain how you're analyzing. Then proceed to give your thoughts and theories based on the knowledge you already have as you're analyzing. This as opposed to the sentiment some form guys have of "I have the truth and no one else has it" or "everyone else is wrong except me!". You aren't selling snake oil, you're trying to find the actual truths just like the rest of us, and pair them with your already great coaching skillset to create this channel. Absolutely goated.
I appreciate your kind words. Thanks
This is nuts! Thanks for the vid
This channel has GOT to blow up. Great content 👏
Ezra actually goes beyond 90-deg as well. He mentions this in his video. I tend to think it's a result of what you mentioned here and in your last video in the "active" part of the right arm.
And thanks for going through the comparison. It's something that I wanted to try and do, but you, obviously, will do a much better job!
Glad you noticed the “disc slide” as you put it. I started trying to imitate that move of Simon’s recently because holding everything at 90 degrees would always cause my left shoulder to come through way earlier than Simon’s. Simon even mentioned that he noticed Casey White did the same thing but that he didn’t know what it meant.
Great instruction. Easily the best instructional videos on RUclips.
I’ve heard for so long that the plant foot is the trigger for proper timing, but I guess my understanding was wrong. I was thinking plant then initiate, but these guys are clearly showing that the trailing arm initiates the forward motion at the same time as the plant or even a touch before. These breakdowns are a gold mine of information.
Or the thing that triggers the left arm to move in also triggers the forward motion. I focused on getting my left arm in but would always revert when I focused on anything else. Then when I focused on keeping my body moving forward (i.e. not swinging before my weight was forward enough), I was suprised to see my left arm tucking into my body -- I had no recollection of doing it. shrug
Love the Monday morning video drop😎
You are awesome! Amazing coach!
Thank you so much for these videos. Hopefully this becomes a long series with more pros.
Sweet! Looking forward to the left arm video.
Thanks for posting another great video my friends
I like the idea of comparing Simon and Drew's form in the way that you are. Your analysis is very much appreciated. Go watch Simon's most recent video, vlogmas day 12. Specifically, Simon's drive on the their final hole of that round.... It is probably the best footage I've seen of a disc golf drive ever. I wish they would have measured it. It was incredible!
I will!
I love this. So much of what you do shows me I'm getting caught up in inefficiencies from "technique" videos I saw when I started playing more regularly
Lol disc and balls
@@oniongummy8969 lol, one day I'll post more ball golf vids, but vlogmas is all disc
Great breakdown!
Thank you
This was a fascinating video really enjoyed it
So helpful!! Really appreciate your content!
...thanx so much for this awsome video... but it is really frustrating to have to think of another tiny bit that obviously matters a lot... Being able to throw at around 350 - with every third shot nosed up or grip locked I don´t know how to handle that much information about run up, angles, power pocket, disc choice, grip, wind...etc... and that´s why I love disc golf so much ;-) - Grüße aus Berlin
I literally can’t even tell you how much watching your videos has helped my distance and accuracy. You’ve also inspired me to create my own channel on social media. Thank you. Is form analysis something you still offer to patreon?
Thanks. And yes, we do
Absolutely amazing. Thankful and grateful for how well you guys break down all of this information.
When you say they are gassing it after it reaches the power pocket. That reminds me of the Beto Drill. It's basically a standstill/one-step drill, where you keep the disc at your chest(in the power pocket) then step and accelerate the disc outward.
It might help as a reference point into further analysis.
Awesome almost got a par on every hole (18 holes) that's been my goal. I had a birdie on one hole and a bogey on another hole shot par but not that perfect par almost. I think that I owe alot of thanks to your videos they are helping me find my weaknesses thank you #overthrow disc golf
It’s interesting to note the following at 9:30, when you are analyzing Simon’s right arm. Simon’s disc doesn’t “stay” when his left foot hits the ground, it “stays” when his weight transfers
It is. I think that is in part to this not being a max distance throw where he would really let that arm extend all the way straight on the backswing.
My analysis of the shoulder opening is that the farther from the center of rotation (spine) the disc is, the faster it is moving. Opening the shoulder would slightly increase this radius and thus the speed of the disc out of the hand.
Interesting! Maybe it’s a little of both?
Drew and Simon are good examples, but I personally would love to see this type of analysis with Emerson Keith. His efficiency in his throw is incredible!
good stuff, real interesting! Thanks for the video guys!
Movement in the pocket.
My theories on it are at the pocket is where you hit your fast twitch muscle groups, but you have to engage the correct groups for one. Which I think guys like Simon and Drew just naturally figured it out, but as for most pro's, they are not always really sure what they are doing, just that they are doing the right thing.
I theorize that part of this helps bring the disc even tighter into the pocket for a little bit more coil in the arm.
So, with passive throwing, your goal is to keep the 90's and let the body drive the arm. Easy 400 feet with that method and right disc. 0 effort throwing.
When you get into the active engagement in the pocket, its like the off arm. As one thing I've noticed, its not really easy to teach the punch down as every pro does it at slightly different times and slightly different.
Then of course you get into Swedish/EU style vs American style. WHOLE different discussion there, though its a fun one. But there is a difference it causes in leverage which is interesting.
where was I.
Oh yes, So, learning to engage the muscles and when in your timing to start the active part of the swing in the pocket, there really isn't a direct explanation for when and what.
And getting that timing together is SUPER important otherwise you'll feel muscle strain and if you've been a "muscle" of a disc golfer for a long time, this process will cause you to muscle the whole swing as well, which is really annoying.
My thought is that breaking down the swing backwards will help process this further.
As pro's get better and better, the swing gets more and more complex. Which is so much fun.
I had a throw I tried for a while that purposefully broke a few rules creating this odd movement in the pocket with a deep pocket method. I got incredible distance from it, but it was more of a muscled throw vs a clean swing. But I think it emulated this movement in the pocket giving some extra coil.
Getting deep into the pocket seems to help with spin from my experience as well.
I don't think what you know is a lie.
I think you're on the path that I am working on though.
Which is a lot different from other people teaching out there. As I'll hear people say some really good stuff, then just ruin it with bad terminology or bad understanding of mechanics.
It's cool that you have Tennis in your background.
I use my baseball and Golf experience to drive a lot of what I'm theorizing and working through.
And I actually fixed a lot of my forehand issues with a Tennis forehand video. hahah.
The overall similarities you can gain from the sports is important and need to be correlated as best as possible to gain even more understanding of leverage and body mechanics/motion.
Agreed on all fronts. Deep in the pocket definitely helps whip. Now how to teach?
@@OverthrowDiscGolf "leverage" hahaha.
And. The answer is "wide rail" =)
Which is a difficult style.
I figured out how Paul does it, but holy crap getting that extra step in your timing is SOOO hard.
Wide rail sets you up for deeper pocket. Which from my experience I seem to get more spin/snap on the disc with a wide rail.
I think Simon's form changed a bit after his elbow injury and he doesn't straighten his arm like he used to in the past.
What is also of interest is that when at full extension, the disc is not parallel to the body. The foot/body alignment is about 30 degrees apart from throwing arm creating a V. It is all about v’s, in and out, not parallel railroad tracks
What you're NOT seeing here is what separates Drew from the rest. On his maximum power shots, after his foot plant, and before the disc is released, and after the disc hits the real power pocket, Drew extends his plant leg straight. This increases his hip rotation, and thus his torso rotation rate - which is the deciding factor in distance. It also de-weights the plant foot such that it will easily pivot on the heel once the disc is on the way.
I’m a feel person, so looking after their pocket if you focus on the elbows. I believe that’s where they get more than 90. Plus it seems to mean the forearm is in a acute angle maybe 75
I would love to Emerson Keith and/or Seppo Paju. A breakdown of either one would be fascinating because they both have huge power with bent arms. A side by side with Simon or Drew would be an interesting comparison
Me too! Bring em on!
Question for you: What if the movement out of the power pocket is not a function of the right side at all? That shoulder angle looks like it is a function of the left hip and left arm creating an imbalance which forces a stretch reflex in the right lat around the rear tilted rotational axis created by the right heel. This would then allow the right arm to swing like a trebuchet, with load stretching on the opposite side of the rotational axis. The elbow bending (and moving past 90) would then be an expression of force linearly as it swings behind the rotating arm (hooked to a stable right shoulder being pulled by the right lat) creating a huge stretch reflex through the forearm and wrist. I’m not saying pull back…I’m saying that the mass displacement that the left side provides creates the stretch, and the heel block gives that stretch reflect direction. In this system of stretch,, any movement of the right arm would activate voluntary muscle contraction which would decelerate the system, so trying to move small muscles (like trying to throw the right elbow forward) would be more likely to break the chain of pull from the hips and shoulders and decelerate a system that would naturally accelerate through the finish. Just a thought.
I read it. I understood it. But I don’t know the answer. It could be a byproduct of keeping the right side loose and force expression with the left but I don’t know.
That angle opening up from 90⁰ to like 110⁰ or whatever is, in my opinion (not an expert at all), fast twitch muscle activation which you see in many athletes. They are sooo good at slinging discs and such good athletes in general that they have that timing down and can't activate those fast twitch muscles at the perfect time for extra snap out of the pocket.
Good stuff
Great video. Can you do one on Emmerson Keith and how he can throw so far without being as tall / long armed? His pull back reminds me a bit of Calvin without full extension usually.
As a follow up, I bet most viewers aren't 6 ft or taller so it would be really cool to see if you can find anything that the shorter elite distance throwers are doing to get big distance.
I'd expect shorter players would need to fully extend the arm even more, but Emmerson doesn't appear to. It also looks like he drops the elbow, but picks up back up when it matters. It also looks like he slightly curls the wrist in. Calvin, despite being tall, also seems to do these things and Calvin has the highest Precise Power Index rating.
Are they just anomalies? Or does this compact form help generate more power and many people are unnecessarily over extending their arm? Maybe avoiding full extension helps take more advantage of explosive power from the muscle stretch-shortening cycle (SSC).
I don't even think the arm is passive into the pocked. Rather, I think the rotation starts first in the hips/core (triggered by the left arm swinging into the body), after which Simon and Drew start accelerating the disc via the right arm into the power pocket. There is a perfect synchronization at the point of the "box's" creation, which makes it seem like the right arm is passive and its movement simply a product of the body's, but really the arm is still moving faster than the body's rotation. As an analogy that might be slightly fictional, picture a speeding vehicle (the arm) moving over a booster (the hip/core rotation) on a race track; both are moving independently but boost off each other at the right moment..
I see what you're saying but have to disagree at this point about active in to the pocket. Granted I am still learning as we get more and more footage, but it is contrary to what I know from other sports.
I wonder if the arm getting ahead isn’t more due to the hips beginning to slow rotation as they travel further into their brace?
Additionally, the angle of the disc as he pulls it into his chest. It's not flat which I find interesting. He releases on a bit of a hyzer, but the disc comes into the chest on waaaay more hyzer than that.
Could that right elbow move past 90 be when simon rotates his forearm to get the disc at the right angle for release? Kinda seems like it when i looked at that side view again.
Not sure but my feeling is no. I think it’s more about the left shoulder pulling back and right shoulder acceleration
Excellent content. Beautiful to watch the ballet of the throw. So hard to get anywhere near that! Also - Im old! Any plans for old guy learning techniques?
I only throw old guy techniques. Lol
Fantastic video, could you by any chance do a clinic/how to, on a single step throw? You can find almost nothing on this, but it does exist
It does. I think Ezra’s recent drill video does a good job of showing this.
the upper arm goes beyond 90 because the momentum forwards stop, they aren't pulling. 8:27 the momentum has shifted into the projectile already due to the brace/shoulder yank, pushing it straight towards the armpit and for you to reach your armpit the upper arm has to go beyond 90. 8:32 at this point the momentum of the projectile is still going straight but by this time he has rotated enough that the elbow is now in the line instead of the armpit pushing the upper arm even more beyond 90 since the momentum is now faster than his rotation. 8:33 the shoulder is now technically going backwards acting as the whip yank and the momentum line is slightly past the elbow making the momentum go on an arc around the elbow due to it being "stuck" at the end of the forearm lever, escalating it to insane speeds because of the same momentum having to take on the arc instead of a straight line
basically he is so lose and have such good timing he literally uses his body and brace as a trebuchet with a touch of whip action to further enhance the speed of the sling. you can never do that by pulling. now imagine if had that ricky wysocki finger strength and could pivot the disc around is finger to make even one more arc at that speed 😅 this wasn't full power and im pretty sure he does that already on longer throws
10:44 he controls the speed with longer or shorter end strides into the brace. more forwards momentum=longer stride=more time to coil=further reach=straighter arm=more speed. thats how its so effortless and looks so smooth for him. he has the same timing every time, just at different lengths. he isnt slowing down one part to throw shorter. he is slowing EVERYTHING down keeping the same timing at a smaller scale. thats probably why he can do the speed gun trick so easy (throwing at the speed that gets called out)
This all goes to show how important the "smooth is far" saying is and it isnt just a cliche saying. learn your bodies timing at any distance its easiest for you to hit it until it becomes second nature. then you can speed it up by extending the entire timing of your throw, not just one part. have you seen how smooth a trebuchet lobs a projectile even if its a huge mechanical structure? its not a catapult. I recommend every disc golfer watch this ruclips.net/video/8hAX72Xgf1U/видео.html and think of your stride into brace as the counterweight stall and the sling length as your coil/reachback. diferent people have different length slings/limbs and require different length strides/counterweight fixture to time the sling stall and the counterweight stall together
I’ve heard it described as a two-part throw, 1) compressing the left shoulder and hip into the right side, then 2), driving the right shoulder open. Maybe this explains why it’s more than 90? Not sure.
I’m down with that explanation
Great quantent as always! Digging the intro music, genre/ artist? @overthrowdiscgolf
you can just see that little wrist hinging at the peak of the reach back too. not that i'm an expert, but i feel like that's a sort of trigger to start putting weight on the disc. i.e. heavydisc
Very interesting form comparison. Gonna go back to the box drill and your other backhand drills - achieving 400ft (with my assumably slow muscle fibers) in the near future is my dream, 450ft feels unreachable even though I’m very sporty and only in my early 30ties. (I’m the bulky athletic type and my talent is strong legs and endurance, but never been a fast sprinter // I used to have a rather good arm in baseball though, so maybe there’s something)
How's your proggress coming along? 4 months ago I could get past 400 feet only every now and then, I was stuck at that level for over 2 years. Then I started tweaking my form and now my record is 446 feet and I am aiming at 500 in the next couple of years. It's all about form, not so much about muscles!
incredible how similar thows strokes are
Question: is Simon pronating his left wrist/forearm when he drives it forward/downward? Looks like it to me, but hard to tell. Seems like this would be a good technique to increase the compression between shoulders and lag of the right arm.
Yes and yes. I actually teach the pronation with the punch down for that reason. Good eye!
Are their shoulders decompressing to create that larger angle as they unfold from the power pocket? Their shoulders look closer in the power pocket, then broad and straight at release...
The left shoulder compresses into the right shoulder and then decompresses out of the pocket IMHO.
As that relates to coaching it could be as simple as "pinching the shoulder blades" to broaden the shoulders, but certainly not something for everyone to try.
@@roberthane3839 certainly. I've been experimenting with different mental cues for it.
I would like to see a breakdown of Matt O. With his arm up higher how does he generate his power?
I would be interested as well
So glad we aren’t watching the wrong arm
This is awesome💪🏻💪🏻💪🏻 Simons form = disc golf perfection🥏🗑….. Drew is pretty good also😂😂
I believe that the speed of which the arm is moving is not something that your shoulder rotation can keep up with, so if you are doing the other things properly, then it will look like this.
in.sane....im really intersted to see Ezra's though! has word gotten around enough that you have pros reaching out to you? are do you just cold call them? Or do pros like Simon and Drew tell others?
Word has not gotten out yet. I prefer not to cold call though if I can avoid it.
Something I think you should comment on is Simon's feet. In that side view, you can see that his feet are splayed outward (left foot pointing backward and right foot pointing perpendicular to the target) and not parallel. It's a bit different from your comments on the plant in your footwork video. Not saying you're wrong... just different from what Simon does.
Yep. I’ll be getting to that
2:28 are they actively turning their right shoulder away from the target? It seems more like they are rotating their left shoulder towards the target…
Simon doesn't seem to have a big left arm move. It looks like he just brings his left arm to his side whereas Drew is bringing his left arm across his body. Very different imo.
The disc may not execute in a straight line, but their hands, on the other hand (no pun intended) do seem to execute in a straight line... at least in the sky view angle.
lol, editor. "can't believe you've done this" voiceover
I watched this before the putting game.
Wow. The highest honor
I’m gonna hold off on adding shoulder power until the disc is under the brim of my ball cap.
that full extension is not necessary per se, would be amazing if you had the possibility to film seppo Paju for example.
Would love to get some Seppo in here
@@OverthrowDiscGolf Seppo actually made a commercial tutorial package, i guess in finnish, wherehe goes through everything he knows, and he had also thought through it (i.e., what os really happening) Havent seen it or ordered, but he would be a good conversation partner in that matter too. Next year?
@@tanskasenherrasvaki3533 I haven’t seen it. Do I have to buy it or is it on RUclips?
He still had the link to the web store concrning the instruction on his youtube on november in spain, but not anymore on his latest video from december.
edit:
For some reason my earlier comment did not appear here. The name of the video was Opi Frisbeegolf and it was commercial, you could buy it and then get a private link, and I guess you could also get some personal instruction from the man himself, if I remember right. I never bought it so i do not know how he did ot technically. His personal web store does not have it anymore, as I checked it. You can get the link from his spain video in finnish from his personal youtube account (perhaps that is why the previous comment did not show up as i wrote that link)
Maybe you can reach Seppo via some media to ask to see it, as you teach yourselves(very well, I must say, I have learnt a lot good theory, and how to practice, need to put it into practice though).
how do you take this video
We used our footage plus Coaches Eye
@@OverthrowDiscGolf yes, but how do you film it from above? drone?
@@Rydal1 yep. Drone
@@OverthrowDiscGolf Cool!
what kind of drone do yall have
This is probably very similar to all pros that are throwing that far
I can't wait to see it if it is. When I synced up these throws from the overhead I was mind blown
@@OverthrowDiscGolf Thomas Gilbert definitely does it
"Cause it's a swing"
I've been driving this for 2 or 3 years now.
The terms we use to describe disc golf in general are poor and not realistic of what you actually need to be doing.
Proper language to the swing helps break your mind free of these poor terms which program our mind/body to do all the wrong things vs what we should be doing.
Most of the bad terms we use encourage muscling, poor timing and bad footwork.
I've fixed peoples swings without lessons, but simply by re-explaining the whole process with better terms for them to process in the overall motions which turn out immediate results with less effort from the golfer.
The more that we all popularize proper terminology further and further, the quicker and better everyone will become with less effort from all of us giving lessons and doing form help.
would rather see an analysis of how simon USED to throw his golf shots rather than this new style to prevent injury..... he used to hop and have his left rear delt way forward, you only see it when he wants to throw hard
simons foot is backward, he can fix that ans smash 1000 feet 😮 😶your toughts ?
Probably not lol
My 850 rating says they need to work on their form a little …
Lol. Simon does no training. He just makes RUclips videos and loses.
I think he’s doing pretty good lol