CLARIFICATIONS AND CORRECTIONS: • *For anyone interested in more content about the Islamic world with a well-sourced, anthropological perspective* I highly recommend the channel Let's Talk Religion, in my opinion the best channel on the platform for these subjects: youtube.com/@letstalkreligion?si=4JNQ8AtsubEZQdN- • *For the people surprised at my knowledge of Islamic theology/those telling me to stick to music and my expertise* My academic background is in history, one of my particular focuses having been early-modern European and Islamic societies and their religious realities, which included academic religious studies. Just because this channel is musical doesn't mean my person-hood begins and ends at music. Music is far from being my main area of expertise, it just happens to be one I got recognised for. Also, for those who haven't realised, I was born in, and lived in an Islamic state, one of the world's few, actual Islamic theocracies, so dismissing me by claiming I'm peeping into a subject utterly foreign to me is somewhat comical. With all that said, if dissenting voices are fixating on me being a musician to dismiss the material presented here, it shows they don't have solid counters to said material. • *You said the Quran doesn't mention music, but some Muslims believe it does* A fair enough point. I should have expressed myself better there. The Quran neither mentions music by name nor explicitly describes it, but in Surah Luqman 31, diversions from religion are mentioned, usually translated as "idle-talk" or "frivolous discussions." Anti-music Muslims believe this to refer to music. Here are diverse translations of the text: corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=31&verse=6 This is where I believe a few additional words on the practice of tafsir, Quranic interpretation at the literal level, are necessary. I cannot play double standards here. If I am to openly point out the extreme liberality of interpretation employed by progressive Western Muslims, I need to do the same with Salafis and other anti-music Muslims regarding this "idle-talk" verse. Surah Al-A'raf says men who approach other men with lust are transgressors, and progressive Muslims claim nothing in this constitutes a condemnation of homosexuality. Surah Luqman talks about idle-talk, and Salafis conclude this is about music. One side negates the extreme clarity of the text, the other projects absolute clarity where there is none. Whilst we cannot, from an anthropological view, judge whether they're theologically wrong, we may recognise the fact that at the level of literal reading, the phrase: "the Quran condemns homosexual sex and doesn't mention music," is entirely accurate, and does not constitute mischaracterisation of the Quran, therefore I stand by both statements. We should however recognise that many Muslims disagree with either of those two statements, but do so using more lavish exegetical maneuvers than normal, hence why both these statements never managed to secure a normative, mainstream, pan-Islam defining status. The interpretations of the Quran that dominated and shaped most of Islam as we know have usually tended towards those where the correspondence between text and interpretation was closest, like: "prohibited to you is the flesh of swine = eating pork is sinful." Concluding pro-gay sex sentiment out of the story of Lot, and music out of "idle-talk" isn't quite as straightforward, hence their failure to secure theological predominance. • *You claim Surah An-Nisah says wives should be obedient to their husbands, but it is entirely possible that the obedience talked about here is towards God, and therefore this verse is not necessarily patriarchal* A fair point up until the last part, which is nonsense. An-Nisah 34 says: "righteous/good women are obedient." It doesn't actually specify "to their husbands" in the Arabic text. In the video, I categorically stated "to their husbands," while filming, forgetting to add that the husband part is definitive insofar as the practical, majority interpretation goes throughout mainstream Islam, but it's true this isn't in the text itself, my apologies for this slip-up. Here's why this detail changes nothing to my ultimate point, however. 1. The interpretation that women are to be obedient *to their husbands* is the standart interpretation in Islamic jurisprudence throughout history (insofar as the 4 traditional Sunni madhabs are concerned, as well as the main Shia madhabs,) and the one where obedient means "to God," is mainly tied to modernist reform movements. In pointing out that the verse *can* be interpreted as "obedient to God," progressive Muslims aren't debunking me. I'm not arguing what the correct interpretation of the faith is, I'm arguing what the normative one is. "Obedient to God" isn't the dominant interpretation in mainstream Islam. 2. Progressive Western Muslims use this as a "gotcha," claiming this invalidates the notion that this verse upholds patriarchal norms. Let us, for the sake of argument, pretend that their reading is the dominant interpretation of Islam. The rest of the ayah goes as follow: for those women who do not obey, husbands are to remind them of their obedience (we'll assume it's to God) by talking to them, then if that doesn't work, disengaging from sexual contact, and as a last resort, they may physically admonish their wives, with a span of interpretation ranging from slaps on certain parts of the body, to symbolically hitting with a toothbrush. This, according to progressive Western Muslims, is in line with Western ideas of gender-equality. That if a woman forgets piety, she is to be set straight by her husband, with the Quran assigning clear, traditional gender roles to man and wife, with husband being given the authority of exerting discipline unto the wife. Progressive Muslims are going "see?! it's not AS patriarchal as the other reading!" Cool, congrats. The metrics of Western feminism would still deem this interpretation offensively sexist. No matter the interpretation, Surah An-Nisa ends up prescribing traditional gender roles for Muslims to follow: the very things deemed the DNA of misogyny by Western feminism. I stand by my comments in the video, as my ultimate point remains unchanged: the negationist myth that Islam, in its practical reality, is a religion defined by principles compatible with modern Western feminist ones, is a narrative of historical denialism of the most comical extravagance, as no matter how one interprets the Quran (outside of reading to a completely allegorical level, which was virtually never the case for these verses), every possible outcome leads to a value system that is the dictionary definition of what constitutes outright sexism by the metrics of Western feminism. And this is not shameful of Islam. No one expects any other outcome, not for Christianity, not for Judaism. Islam's Quranic verses emerged 1400 years ago. The clear wording of the scripture locks interpretation (at least non-allegorical ones, ʿIlm al-Ḥurūf, etc, which were never normative) within a limited range of possibilities, that range venturing no further than the limits of what a medieval/late antique culture could have conceived of in terms of gender roles. Once again, I reiterate the right of progressive Western Muslims to believe that their interpretation of Islam is the correct one, and that the normative methods of interpreting the texts are wrong. But they can make no claims of representing the, or even a majority, or even a significant portion of Islam across its history, as the normative, hegemonic methods of interpretation that dominated and shaped the religion simply cannot, and indeed did not yield 21st century, egalitarian, Western feminist values across Islamic history. Perhaps these minority, atypical Muslims have access to the real truth of Islam, and perhaps it will come to be the definitive, majority expression of Islam in the centuries to come. In this, we cannot essentialise the religion as non-Western compatible in an absolute sense, for we must remember all religions are dynamic and can change over time, and the intellectual maneuvers these Muslims engage in are exactly the kind we see across history that led to the evolution and creation of religions as we know them. But we can, absolutely, reject their historically negationist claims that, as of now, Western egalitarian gender principles have been a normative reality of Islam rooted in its scriptures. That is not an essentialising judgement, but an anthropological assessment. Quranic word-for-word resources: quranwbw.com corpus.quran.com Sources: Islam and Music: The Legal and Spiritual Dimensions, Nasr, Seyyed Hossein. Music in the World of Islam: A Socio-Cultural Study, Shiloah, Amnon. Detroit: Wayne State University Press, 1995. Philosophies of Music in Medieval Islam, Fadlou Shehadi The Modal System of pre-Dastgāh music, Arya Kabiri The Modal System of Arabian and Persian Music, 1250 - 1500: An interpretation of Contemporary Texts, Owen Wright Music Theory in the Safavid Era: The Taqsim-al-Nagāmat, Owen Wright Theory and Practice in the Music of the Islamic World: Essays in Honour of Owen Wright, multiple authors Homoeroticism in Classical Arabic Literature by J. W. Wright and Everett K. Rowson Farahani, Fereydoun (2021). The Social Role of Iranian Music, Weekly Journal Sobhe Andishe, Issue 330, July 3, 2021, p. 6, Isfahan: Gofteman Ansideh Moaser Music of the Ottoman Court, Walter Feldman What Is Islam? The Importance of Being Islamic, Shahab Ahmed 00:00 Intro 01:20 Disclaimers 05:57 There is music in MENA. Period. 13:51 Anti-music sentiment in Islam 17:27 Understanding Islamic theology 26:08 There are *degrees* of sin 36:34 The inevitability of sin 39:46 Not all Muslims are devout Muslims 46:50 MENA is more than Islam 53:26 Islam isn't barbaric, it's also not progressive
'... semites, jews, etc" #smh same thing, semites are the peoples. jews are believers, could be semites (which they originally were as far as we know) or any other race ;)
What I don't understand is that even if music was forbidden, the people and culture of the region didn't just appear ex nihilo. Pre-Islamic cultures existed for a long time in the region and they probably had music of their own, and even in this fantastical "all music is universally banned forever" scenario it would've still survived in some form, be it underground oral tradition or historical records. Actually, pre-Islamic music sounds like an interesting video idea.
I do have a video about Mesopotamian music of Antiquity but that's pretty much all we have in terms of evidence. The rest of the music of Antiquity, outside of the Greco-Roman system, is entirely lost with little to no evidence unfortunately
@@faryafaraji Wouldn't some Indian music also survive (just guessing, heard that most Indian music was passed down orally and still exists) Loved your videos btw!
Music is not forbidden in islam, those who think that ares radicaliste. The coran did not forbid music, music is allowed as long as it dont insult GOD.
no actual muslims ever thought that music is haram. maybe when they say it's forbidden, they actually meant the trendy latin Reggaeton with obsene lyrics or nicky minaj songs😂
I think what a lot of people miss is that the existence of a religious sermon or philosophical treatise against an activity, or a law proscribing an activity, is not evidence that the activity wasn't done--it's usually the opposite! If it wasn't happening, there would be no pressing compulsion to restrict it or speak out against it! E.g. there are Ottoman law codes forbidding marriage between Christians, Jews, or Muslims--you could only marry within your own faith. This doesn't mean Christians, Jews, and Muslims in the Ottoman Empire didn't marry each other. What it means is that the religious leaders of these three communities,who were otherwise generally free to enforce religious and civil law within their own communities, collectively agreed that interfaith marriage was a widespread problem (for them), and lobbied the Sultanate to make it illegal. That doesn't even cover if or how it was enforced after the law was made. Great work Farya, I learned a lot from this.
Perfect comment. This is absolutely key to understanding many widely spread misconceptions about history, religion, culture, etc. Thank you, and great example.
An example of this that comes to mind is, with classical Latin pronunciation enthusiasts, you sometimes hear “Ancient Romans never pronounced this word that way, because we have an Ancient Roman source telling people not to pronounce it that way.” But that source actually proves that some people did use that pronunciation, otherwise there would be no need for the correction.
@@ModernEphemeraand even today we see linguistic elitists saying shit like that for dialects that are entirely seperate from formal english. not much has changed lol
that is a very bad example because legal marriages would need approval from local authorities and if the family of either one was against it then it could not happen illegally either! they would have to elope and migrate or move to a different region of the empire. whereas musical instruments can be kept hidden and gatherings with musicians can also be kept out of sight from authorities or those who are against music. not possible with marriage!
Some Westerners really seem to believe Muslims are monolithic, and always living in perfect accordance with the Quran. The point about how prostitution, gluttony, and indeed various other things considered sinful by Christianity were present throughout Europe for as long as it has been majority Christian clearly shows how narrow-minded this view is. I actually didn't know that some people thought music was forbidden or even absent in the entire Islamic world though. You would just as soon convince me that nobody in the West is allowed to celebrate Christmas because the Puritans forbade it.
The puritans try in Britain, after the Civil War there are suddenly a few puritans in positions of power. Puritans have a whole thing about psalms. How psalms should be communal and not sung to the congregation, which psalms are okay and when you can sung new ones, if there should be musical instruments. In what manner they should be sung.
There is a general desire from the privy council and the mainstream bishops to control things like the theater. Usually using related matters as arguments, like drinking/brawling, the threat of crimes, ideas spreading, overt idleness/get back to work.
@@SusCalvin Now it makes sense why all the Muslim sects US/UK backed are such barbaric and such extremists. Salafis and Sauds in the 1920s, Jamat-A-Islami (in South Asia) in the 1930 to onward, Muslim Brotherhood (in the middle east) from the 50s to onward, later Al-Quaida, ISIS, it just gets worse and worse.
It’s not the idea of Muslims living in perfect accordance with the Quran, it’s the fear of the states that control how the population acts based on both the surah’s and hadiths, which is not a good thing, imo. There are two camps of ‘westerners’ who dislike Islam, one is out of ignorance, and the other is out of a conscious, historical reactionism against the anti-humanistic oppressions that the Abrahamic religions, primarily Christianity, had done to them back during 300s and up until the 1600s. That cultural trauma of oppression by organized religion is still fresh in the European zeitgeist. And I no doubt think this camp of people think Islam is just Christianity but worse, due to the perceived legalism and chauvinism of its followers, and the states that use it as a crowd control tool.
It is true that in all major law schools music was not deemed to be virtuous. But popular islam has not been legalistic for most of the history. Sufism, which was the mainstream in islamic world up until very recently, elevated music to a very divine position.
I think the balance that is to strive for is important. Sufism is unappealing for me due to being at risk of being too Lax and entering Shirk. The strong legalistic aspects that Hanbali and Sha'fí try to achieve makes me feel like a lawyer, dry and hardsteeled. There are places and need for spirituality and there areas where hard discipline and rule regulations and adherence is necessary. Consider the process of culture and mentality of the people as a ruler and spiritual leader, than apply in accordance with the examples of the prophet and sahaba and adopt it to your stance in a timely manner. As such no change or results will be achieved in a second. The people of Prophet Muhammad a.s had 23 years of nurturing going for them, so it's always important to strike the balance.
@@faryafaraji Would be interesting to see you delve into qawwali. Music had always been so important to Indians that Islam would've barely gained any followers if not for sufi music. I find it crazy (or absolutely normal) that qawwalis still follow the ancient raaga system, keeping the "Hindu" names such as Raag Saraswati, Bhairavi, Durga, etc. Even today, the average Pakistani or Indian Muslim, Hindu, or Sikh finds in music the height of spiritual experience. The poetry too is mindblowing. Where else do you find Muslims singing about Radha and Shyam (Krishna) or Raam besides the usual Karbala, Shah-e-Madina (Muhammad), Ali, ibn-e-Maryam, Maulana Rumi, Moinuddin Chishti, or Amir Khusro? Edit: OK, Indonesia has the Ramayana play. But personally, I love traditional, old school, qawwali.
As a Muslim, I never expect for Farya would explain the basic theology of Islam in his channel. I really enjoy your channel fr, especially your songs simply because they are so beautiful. In one hadith the Prophet said, God is beautiful and likes beautiful things. Peace!
Most people say that music is completely forbidden, as shown by the individuals in the early part of the video, who are Salafis/Wahhabists. This is a branch of Islamic puritans that emerged in modern Saudi Arabia during the decline of Ottoman rule there. They helped overthrow the Caliphate’s rule in Mecca and Medina, and with the support of the Saudi family, they spread their ideology throughout the modern Islamic world, including to new converts in the Western world. There is nothing inherently wrong with these puritans, but they sometimes force their ideology on other Muslims and are quick to label other Muslims as heretics. I am from Indonesia, the farthest part of the Islamic world, where we have a rich musical tradition that dates back to the ancient Hindu-Buddhist pre-Islamic era and continued during the Islamization of our region. Music has never been an issue for us; in fact, it was even used as a tool to spread Islam here. However, this changed with the emergence of puritan ideology.
@@luthfilofianda3999my only remark about what you explained is the " there is nothing wrong inherently about these puritans" no there's plenty wrong in their creed of the Book of so called Tawheed by Ibnu Abdul AL wahhab the father of this movement, his invention of the term "grave worshipers" and him and his group basically making takfeer on 90 % of the Muslim world , where basically no one was Muslim except him and his group in Najed , this absolute deviance comes from the absolute butchering of the concept of worship by Abdul Al Wahab .
Even the most hardcore Salafi Muslims won't deny the musicality of Nasheeds or the Qur'an, even though it's not considered music itself. You could argue from an anthropological level; it's a puritanical group suppressing other forms of music for the benefit of some forms of music.
I’m from Poland and literally one of the best experiences of my life in the field of music was listening to Iranians singing poetry under the Khajoo Bridge in Isfahan and 3 concerts of Kayhan Kalhor and Erdal Erzincan that I attended in London. Definitely music doesn’t exist in the middle east and I suppose that I had to be under heavy influence of some yet unknown to science drug that causes collective hallucinations of whole societies and thus some of us believe in the myth that music in islamic world exists. For sure.
my Mum grew up in a Christian denomination that forbade dancing, she met my Dad at a dancehall 🤣, alcohol was forbidden too yet her entire family were alcoholics, it's all the same any religion, people cherrypick everything
Dancehalls were bundled with a lot of other stuff in the historical morality debate here. The drinking, hookups, occasional brawls, general unsupervised teenagers.
I grew up in a Jehovah's Witness family. No birthdays, no holidays. But there were definitely times where going out to dinner may have accidentally coincided with a birthday COMPLETELY by accident! lol
I always found this matter to be interesting, since whenever the old islamic scholars talked about that music is haram and instruments, it was most of the time because the reason of forbidding was either the whole atmosphere or reputation, like how there is no party without dancers, alcohol and music, it was rare for me to read about scholar who just made it forbidden because it's essence, not to mention some scholars who allowed some form of it like imam al ghazali who said "whoever says that all music is prohibited, let him also claim that the songs of the birds are prohibited"
Exactly and I think Ibnu Hazm said something in to that essence too , this paranoia is found in our modern so called scholars who love to control the personal matters of ordinary muslims yet keep quite when it comes to people in power in Muslim countries who do every major sin under the sun , you mention music they lose their minds you mention ribba which is practiced and legalized by almost all Muslim rulers the excuses start coming out or they are usually quite , while the prohibition of ribba is waaaaay more explicit in the Quran and hadith in comparison to music .
@@omarelmorsy139 The entire premise of why it’s haram today mirrors the logic of Islamic scholars today who also declare watching too much football as impermissible. It’s simple: it distracts you, the slave, from your most important purpose-worshiping Allah. Less time watching football or listening to music means more time bowing, prostrating, and venerating.
i think thats rather just those scholars trying to rationalise why music in unallowed, rather than them actually believing thats why. it is very hard to rationalise many parts of islam, which is why the leaps of logic to things such as its reputation or its atmosphere is required to sufficiently explain it away
@Dogma-007 the thing is , the ruling on football ( and other similar things that can be considered 'distractions' ) isn't universal or widely accepted by scholars , in fact i would say the most common and accepted opinion is that u can watch it so long as it doesn't contain haram material ( like gambling , half naked ladies ...etc ) and it doesn't distract u from mandatory acts like the 5 prayers . However for some reason i have seen many shiekhs especially online say it is haram while providing weak or no evidence to justify their claim
they sound really dumb. so just forbid music and instruments instead of those things? what kind of logic is that? it's like forbidding drinking anything but water because of alcoholic drinks.
Fascinating stuff; I'll admit to having been totally ignorant of this clearly nuanced topic, but this is an excellent and very well articulated analysis. Great work
I missed your essays so much! The part where you present the horrible suppression of music in Turkey and Iran was comedy gold. But seriously, having been raised in a mostly Christian country I didn't know about this debate about music in Islam. I've learned something new thanks to you. That last chapter was very necessary. I've seen the Lot ra*e argument in so many comment sections. P.S. excellent recommendation about homosexuality in the Islamic world. I will watch it next since I am interested in sexuality in different cultural and historical contexts
Holy shit that second comment in the beginning really caught me off guard! I wasn’t fully paying attention and I started hearing some of the most heinous shit and I was like “what the fuck?!” and realized he was reading a stupid comment from someone.
I came here for the music but stayed for the anthropological and theological discussion of Islam. This video destroyed so many misconceptions I had. Great job man!
Especially regarding the specific subject talked about in this segment. When certain protests arose in the Middle-East in which young women were getting shot at by authorities, imprisoned and tortured, for protesting mandatory hijab laws... the white, feminist female students and teachers openly stated that we should not express any support towards this movement. Since this movement fought Islamic laws, "voicing support to it would be offensive to Canada's Muslim community." Not only that, students were actively encouraged to not bring it up so the movement wouldn't gain recognition, as "it makes Islam look bad and will contribute to Islamophobia in the West." Some of my friends in the Journalism program were told that they were forbidden by the heads of faculty, mostly made up of White, fourth wave radical feminist women, from writing any articles and projects mentioning the movement. This is just one story. I could write a novel about the other insanity I saw, like White LGBTQ activists and progressive Muslims calling a Middle-Eastern bisexual man a liar when he explained the gay right's situation in his country where homosexual men are executed; expressing the possibility of him being a pro-Israeli agent who disseminates falsified Islamophobic propaganda. The White LGBTQ activists and progressive Muslims went on to declare that gays in all of MENA have the exact same freedoms as gays in the West, and that any claim to the contrary is rooted in right-wing and Israeli racism. On the r/progressivemuslims post of this video, the geniuses over there are claiming that I'm probably a conservative right-wing guy because I use the term "woke" to mock left-wing radicals. The reason I do, and the reason I call out Canadian universities... is precisely *because* I'm left-wing, because I care for gay rights, and women's rights. It's just that, having been born and having lived in MENA myself, my principles, my left-wing values, don't suddenly turn into a puff of cowardly smoke the very instant Islam is mentioned. The West's left-wing political expression, most eloquently expressed in Canada's universities, isn't criticisable solely from a right-wing perspective. It's worthy of derision from a left-wing perspective too, because in practice, it has adopted the stance that all gay rights and women's rights should be actively defended... unless they're brown gays and brown women in Islamic countries. Sheer batshittery indeed.
@@faryafaraji As someone who's half chinese , i sympathize so much with your experience of binary thinking of culture in the West. Was called CIA spy multiple times by Western leftist talking about facts and my lived experience. Sometimes from people who hate the US gov less than me... Good to know that their binary thinking isn't limited to self proclaimed "communist states"
amazing video not only strictly on music, but also really informative about islam itself. for a European, who's been brought up in islamophobic beliefs (not actively adhering to them), I've gained a new view on how rules work in Islam. obviously, people are people, it's just curious to see in what ways exactly people are similar throughout cultures. in every religion, when it comes to rules, you'll find similar gray areas and Islam isn't unique in it. and that's really cool in my opinion have a great one, cheers!
This video makes me admire your diligence and honesty, Farya. The diligence in how you thoroughly break down and analyze these erroneous points of view. You don't just scorn people which are thinking this way or simply make fun of them, but try to help show why and how it's wrong on a very basic level. And the honesty of the last part of your video really struck me. That fact that you value an objective truth more than any political agenda is a very respectable. I'm more of a leftie myself and I think if you base your rhetorics on a deliberate lies and manipulations for some short-term political success, you will lose in long-term anyway. Thank you so much for this Epic Talking video! P.S. Before this video I thought Sufis see the music as sacred because of its role in mystical connection with the divine. But based on what you said in 27:59, it seems that I was wrong and it's more complicated thing.
Thanks for the support. Regarding the Sufi view, you're not necessarily wrong. I would argue that, generally speaking, most Sufis view music "itself" as neither sacred nor sinful, but certain types of music as sacred, depending on the lyrical content, the message, the theme, etc. Wahhabi Muslims consider the very sound vibrations of music, the acoustic phenomenon itself, as haram. Sufis don't, but they also don't view the sound vibrations as sacred on their own, at least as far as most of them are concerned (as far as I know). Generally, most Sufis would view music itself, the acoustical art-form at its most basic level, as neutral, neither good nor bad. Then it's up to the believer to use it in a sacred manner, which would be Sufi Music.
Exactly , even muslims here see the banning of music as ridiculous So much local music is made about Islam , and music and religion is so intermingled too
To be honest, as another Iranian and musician, I was actually about to be disappointed around the end of chapter 1. There is no universal rule against music in islam, but as you rightly pointed out, it does not paint a complete picture. As expected, you were incredibly thorough and insightful. This is said to the point of it seeming cliched, but it is somehow so rare to see such nuanced points of view on the internet. It is very refreshing to hear and learn from. You have my sincere respect. Thank you also for all that you are doing to make our cultures more accessible to Westerners.
You are absolutely right, this man's picture is so honest and nuanced ! Honestly reading the comments, there should be at least two categories of "westerners" cause here in France it seems we do know much more about your cultures than Americans. I don't think there is anyone in my country who doestn't know music is considered haram by some Muslims. Maybe some very wealthy people living in Emily in Paris' world ? We even had a famous singer who stopped her career after her conversion to Islam. I would even say it's considered haram by many Muslims, but not as bad as eating pork would be for instance, so they listen to music anyway. Like in the secular world, when there is a legal provision you know about but you don't respect it anyway cause it 's annoying and not considered to be such a big deal even by those who enacted the law. Well maybe it's a French relationship to Law and order...But you get the idea I hope. It's bad but hey, come on, it's not THAT bad. Sorry for my English 😇
Sepās to you for doing something simple that many others don't: watching the whole video first before commenting. 99% of the hate comment I get is from people watching one part of the video that adresses one angle, deciding I'm cherrypicking facts, assuming an agenda on my part, and writing an angry comment. I appreciate your simple gesture of understanding that I'll cover all angles eventually, but can't show them all simultaneously.
@@faryafaraji I haven't watched the video (yet) but I am entirely confident in your content - very clear that you present this material with genuine interest and passion that drives a higher standard of quality and insight as a result. I am very critical of pseudointellectual/psuedoacademic agenda pushing, and very selective about the educational material I trust - and I think you've extensively proven that you contribute not only substantive information, but worthwhile dialogue. Content like this helps us move forward a little.
@faryafaraji You're welcome! I'm afraid I've done the minimum required of me. I feel your frustration truly. It is always surprising how some can make themselves incapable of truly listening. Well, nothing can be done for the one who refuses to engage.
@user-vu1gt7or4f Americans in my experience have new levels of ignorance however I can't speak to the validity of that, it may just be their boisterous culture that calls attention to their ignorance more lol. Your perspective is enlightening in any case.
Turkish Bektashi (who lives in the Arabian peninsula) here, Even tho most people here are wahhabis and they strongly disagree with some of my views on Islam, whenever I put a sufi or classical Ottoman music they love it. Music was not forbidden in Mecca until the House of AlSaud got into power. Even in Sunni Islam, there are many different madhabs and there is no one certain opinion on most topics. However, I can say that the Wahabbis are the only ones who claim themselves to be the rightest ones. I met many Algerians, Tunusians, Moroccans and Persians here, we all have different perspectives on what is haram or not but none of us are this strict about the music topic as much as the Saudis are. I love your music, and Im a big fan since I discovered this channel. Keep it up man 🫡
Wahhabism and Salafism are heresies created by Saudi, Al-Saud dynasty and supported fully by British Empire and today's American Empire. It fits their mission of destroying Islam. They totally succeeded it.
music is considered haram by the consensus of the madhhabs and scholars of islam. unfortunately most muslims are not strict on it! just accept it is haram and move on! it is better for you to do a haram than to change haram into halal.
Also, not to forget that the Ottoman Caliphs (leader of the global Muslim community) literally sponsored and funded opera houses and music centres during the 19th century.
The ottoman empire was the largest and strongest Muslim empire in the world, they are the reason millions are Muslims today and a big part of the preservation of Islam what are you morons talking about lol
Malaysian here. There are scholars here during early arrival of Islam in Southeast Asia using local culture for dawah which includes musical instruments. For example in Indonesia, Wali Songo (9 Saints) used Javanese gamelan as a medium for dawah. Islamic scholars from Middle East such as Arabs and Iranians brought their musical instruments into Southeast Asia which spaws Middle Eastern sounding traditional music such as Ghazal and Zapin.
Very ironic how now music is being demonised. It's almost like they are destroying the base that supported them. Like they think they are better "updated" Muslims than their ancestors.
@@shane1948I'm Indonesian and I find that there's a sort of cultural insecurity among some Muslims here, that they're not "doing Islam right" if it isn't the same as what the Gulf Arabs are doing.
The part about progressive Muslims is very interesting. My experience with western progressive Muslims has honestly been that they usually acknowledge they are atypical Muslims, and that mainstream Islam is very patriarchical, anti-gay, etc. I think maybe the kind of revisionism you are describing is more common in Anglo-American communities, where people are even more disconnected from mainstream MENA Islam. As for non-Muslim westerners who have a rosy view of the religion, I agree that it is very tiring to see. I think there is also a parallel phenomenon, where “ex-Muslims” and liberals from the Islamic world have a very rosy view of Christianity and the west. At the end of the day, it is like you said: Christianity, Islam, and Judaism are all standard Abrahamic religions. But people will always think that “the grass is greener on the other side”.
@@SusCalvin I've heard it said that you'll find the most and least religious muslims in the world in Iran. Makes sense, in much the same way you'd probably find the most and least religious Christians in America, which has a similar phenomenon of being deeply religious, highly educated, and a state pretty comfortable with repression.
please learn about islam from people who arent “ex-muslims” or “progressive muslims” because they wont show you the beauty of it, perhaps because they werent showed its beauty as kids themselves or because they were bullied for it. ask muslims about islam who love their religion to get a better picture, you cant just pick and choose your sources and come to a conclusion just like that without seeing both sides, because as a muslim woman myself i love islam and its genuinely the only thing that gives my life meaning, and i would love for you to enjoy its beauty as well
@@_dulee_ I absolutely agree! I do know many people who have a good relationship with Islam. I was just talking about progressive muslims and “ex-muslims” as examples of people who have an unusual relationship with Islam, but I agree that their views are skewed because of this
The difference between religious prohibition and social attitudes was a universal phenomenon in all pre-modern pre-secular societies, many european nobles were fond of “beautiful boys” as much as their muslim counterparts, had mistresses and affairs, various popes had children after having adopted the garb, who openly and publicly carried their fathers’ names etc. Oh and for colourful examples on the love of boys and alcohol in islam would be the autobiographical Baburnama, where the author Babur gives accounts of the drinking and sexual practices of every one of his relatives when the narrative reaches their death. He himself writes most fondly and elaborately of his love for a boy instead of his many wives and concubines
51:10 This example reminded me of a debate between me and some of my ignorant muslim compatriots on another issue sometimes. Some traditional religious muslim Turks think calling their children with names like Cengiz, Attila etc... (pre-Islamic Turkic-Mongolian names) is a sin and they reprimand those who give their children this kind of names. Whenever i see a post in the social media or listen a preach about "not naming children with unislamic names", i ask them why they don't deprecate names like Hüsrev, Feridun, Kahraman, Neriman etc... (pre-Islamic Persian names) which are quite prevalent in Turkey. They are baffled and then say "well, they are denizen and accustomed." Then I say there is no such thing as muslim names/non-muslim names. All they assume about names are nothing but their accustomed chiche mindset in their small cultural background. Sorry for digressing but i couldn't help indicating this as an example on how muslims also replace core Islamic mindset with their own accustomed conservative mindset and call their traditional views as Islam. This is also problem for us, as well as misperceptions of non-muslim world's people.
Same in Greece, kind of. Now this issue is almost non-existent, I think. But choosing ancient Greek names was heavily discouraged by the priests. Almost certain some priests still do. Only biblical names, or names of saints (who had a Greek name before sainthood, like George, Dimitrios etc) were allowed. The solution was making up a lot of saints with ancient Greek names. Saint Apollon, for example. Yeah.
@@Sozbir Agree. There is no instruction in Quran or Hadith that ask muslim, born & convert, to get a name in Arabic. The only recommendation(correct me if i'm wrong), is to use a name with good meaning.
Even better ! There are people who literally criticze even NAMING your child "Mohammad" , and consider it a sin to name your child the name of the Prophet , insane
Huh... Interesting. It doesn't really exist here in my country Indonesia Muslim with hindus names like Indra, Rama, Wisnu, Krisna, etc is quite prevalent here. No one thought name like "Muhammad Wisnu", "Krisna Ramadhan", "Dewa" Or others as problematic lol. There's even sultanate with "Sri Indra" In their official name bruh.
"Oriental deceit" now that's a fucking wild term dude. I would have expect that from like a weird fiction book or something, not from random youtube comments. Excellent stuff as always man, really helping me to colour in gaps in my knowledge. Always appreciate these long and in-depth videos.
That entire comment sounded like a Measurehead dialogue line from Disco Elysium. (Because it's the exact type of neo nazi/ race essentialist brain rot that Measurehead was based on)
Muslim checking in. Great video. I am leftist/progressive myself, but I’ve sometimes found myself at odds with other progressive Muslims that whitewash Islam. I’ve continuously maintained to other leftists that Islam is not what the right and Hollywood paint it as, but neither is it what some leftists (and tankies, tbh) paint it as. To other Muslims that are leftists: decide where your belief stands. Don’t present your religion as something else. Present it as it is, and then either stand by the aspects of it that cause contention or otherwise acknowledge that you personally do not agree with what your religion says. For those of you whom stand by what our religion says, be prepared to be ostracized by those leftists who are obsessed with purity testing. For those of you whose values align with progressives, be honest about what parts of your relationship with our religion are atypical.
As a fellow Leftist/Progressive Muslim myself, I agree with you. We are in a very weird state where influence from our cultures, faith and western ideology itself melds our beliefs into a very abnormal state compared to most other Muslims. At the end of the day you have to take all of this and decide what kind of Muslim, you are and that your worldly views are effecting this. It’s often hard to accept that your religion seemingly doesn’t align with what you think is moral and true, but you simply have to if you believe it’s the word of God. This doesn’t mean you can’t treat others and your actions your own way, but you need to understand that these facts are the facts. Islam is Islam, separate from the ever changing and secular ideas of the World. Regardless, you are your own person and have still the power to respect others and be your own person.
I was wondering about that. During the last section I was thinking that if the head of the Swedish Church can be a lesbian woman, something the religion is clearly against in all kinds of ways, then muslims can do that if they like. What is Farya's objection? That they are presenting islam as a whole as if it were like this? As a woke leftie atheist myself, I'd rather have progressive religious people than mad-eyed misanthropes, this goes without saying. You're reading feminism in your bronze-age scripture? Good for you! I'm reading antiracism in Tolkien, who am I to point fingers at people.
@yllejord "What is Farya's objection? That they are presenting islam as a whole as if it were like this?" That is exactly my objection, and clearly you're demeaning it and dismissing it, seeing it as irrelevant. Firstly, objective truth has an intrinsic value to most of us. If someone wants to personally believe Bronze Age literature is feminist, and that Sumer was a Feminist State, good for them if that brings them personal comfort. If they start teaching this as fact in a class, or presenting this as fact through social media, then that should be combated, because this has a name: misinformation. You're literally celebrating misinformation and stating you support it. Building a future on lies is *never* the solution. And it's disturbing that people like you exist, who openly proclaim that we should go along with lies in order not to hurt people's feelings. Secondly: it's clearly not obvious to you as someone who never lived in an Islamic state like I have, but some of the worst human rights violations on earth occur due to certain forms of Islam. When you formulate a lie that all of Islam is progressive, the reality of what happens to millions due to some forms of Islam inconveniences that lie, resulting in the need to downplay, or even censor those truths, and that is exactly the approach that has characterised Western radical left-wing politics for the past decade. This lie you celebrate has made it more difficult to speak up for LGBT rights or women's rights when it comes to the Islamic World, because now those have become left-wing taboos that are at best not actively discussed for fear of seeming "Islamophobic," or at worse, actively whitewashed. By propagating this myth that all of Islam is progressive, Western progressive Muslims have directly sabotaged millions of people victimised by very real aspects of Islamic theology by making it harder for their hardships to be recognised without being met with radical left-wing cries of "Islamophobia" and "bigotry." I've seen women from certain Islamic countries, victims of legislative misogyny (forced to wear the hijab, imprisoned for protesting it, tortured and raped in prison) who after moving to the West, were told by progressive Muslims born in the West that they're lying about what they went through, that none of this happened, that they're simply bigoted Islamophobes. Some progressive Muslims prefer doing that, denying the suffering of millions, the VERY SAME identity groups they claim to be fighting for as progressives, rather than growing the fuck up and admitting that the interpretation they hold to be the correct one is an extreme anomaly in their own religion. This revisionist narrative won't ever change the Islamic World, because this narrative can only grow in the West. At most, it will create a reformed progressive Islam that exists only in Western countries. And as long as you, a Western woman, can benefit from it by having progressive Muslims as your neighbours, then who gives a fuck if gay couples are executed in some distant country, and their stories are silenced, right? Your comment is nothing short of repulsive coming from a comfortable out of touch first-worlder in Sweden responding to an Iranian's statements. Your relaxed "lol whatever" attitude towards this smacks of a privileged perspective that only knows the reality of the West. My objection comes from me believing in the same values as you, the difference is I come from and lived in the Islamic World, lending me a perspective that your narrow, first-world, leftist version of eurocentrism lacks.
I really appreciated the video too. I am always upfront about my beliefs as a Muslim, and where they diverge with Leftists on issues where they contravene the normative views of the faith. That doesn’t preclude me from engaging in areas where I know I can act constructively-in labor organizing with other Uber Drivers here in California, among other things.
I've been listening to you for years, started when I was a kid. You cant believe how happy i am to see a person i appreciate and love is making a podcast or whatever you call it, keep up with good content!
Religions have denominations and those denominations have different interpretation of the script, including the prohibition of music prominent in certain denominations of Islam. The best example for a westerner would be saying that Christianity prohibits the preachers getting married. Well, not all denominations and it has not always been like that. There are radical denominations in all religions and they can enforce the most ridiculous bans conceivable. Religion is complex, huh? Great video as always.
Yep, Muslim with an ethnomusicology degree here, and I take a similar approach to you, in that I just research the music that exists and don't like wasting time writing about the Islamic view(s) on music when I'm not a scholar. Tends to bog things down if every time I write about music made by Muslims, I have to go into who says it's halal and who says it's haram. (Though over the years I've ended up writing more and more about mainstream rock music, so I'm not expected to do that anymore...) Thank you for the nuanced explanation, and for all the beautiful music on your channel. I always love listening to it and seeing the cats.
Unfortunately, this is one of the results of the "wahhabification" of Islam, which has reached new levels with the internet. Music has always been an important part of Islamic belief-- especially of Sufism and Bektashism--in Turkey.
Just to add your comment, I grew up in Saudi and there has always been music and instrument shops there since even 30 years ago even at the height of the religious institutions "control" over daily life.
@@historianhilly first of all Sufis are not even muslims, secondly the sunnah strictly forbids music. As for your wahhabi tick you got there I only have to say: "If following Ahmad ibnu Hanbal makes me a wahhabi, then I confirm myself being a wahhabi" -Imām Imran bin Ridwan Al Lanji Al Farsi rahimahAllahu ta'ala
Fascinating content! I learned quite a lot from this well put video you made. I am a Chinese who spent several years in the USA. When I was there , I debated with conservative Christians who identify as young Earth creationists. They believe that the universe literally started on 4004BC, that the age of the Earth is only 6000 plus years, taking the 6 days that God spent to create the world as literal 6 days. I presented facts and evidences to disprove their claim but they just deny whatever. To hear that you have to explain to ignorant people that music exists throughout Islamic societies across all times reminded me of that experience I had. Apart of that, I find it quite odd indeed that music is considered haram but so many Muslim dominated cultures still have music. Take for example in China where I came from, I grew up watching Muslim Chinese minority groups singing, dancing and playing instruments on TV galas, regardless of the relatively more secular Uyghurs or the less secular Huis. So from very young I know that the notion that music is forbidden in Muslim societies is so not true. That being said, I noticed that the Muslim world's music you introduced does not include the ones from southeast and central Asia, and western China. In Xinjiang China, there are the 12 Muqam, which I am a fan of. The 12 Muqam is said to be compelled by the 16th century Uyghur musician Amannisa Khan, concubine to Abdurashid Khan, ruler of the Yarkent Khanate, which is modern day southern Xinjiang. There is an old movie made in the early 1990s about her story, which I remembered had scenes where the clergy of the Khanate told the ruler that he should stop his concubine from continue her work with the Muqam, saying that music and dance is against the religion of Islam, but in fact they are just using religion to discouraging the Khan from obsessing himself with his concubine's works of arts. So the way I understand it is this: music in itself is not sinful, but do not obsess oneself with it, just like drinking is within Christianity, where drinking is OK but don't over drink; ie do enjoy yourself with pleasures but do so with moderation.
Lovely to get a comment from a Chinese person. Funnily enough i understood islam only after studying Daism/confucianism..regarding music esp this line from the tao te hing:The five colours blind the eye. The five tones deafen the ear. The five flavours dull the taste....In islam as in all relgions the ideal is to move beyond the sensual impulses and passions( both good and bad) into the tao/tawhid..The quran is a form of muscial scale that is outside of the realm of haw(a caprice/wind) that can help you to align your soul with the universal rhythm.. there is a musical harmony that is far beyond an earthly music that is heard with an extra sensory part of the human being, often refered to as the music of the spheres in classical western esotericism..this is music which is heard with the whole self...not just ears ..cs lewis described it quite well in one of his novels...perelandra i think. The taboo against music in islam is to ensure that music doesnt go too far in the wrong direction, which it clearly has in modern society..confucius was saying the music of his time was already degenerate and that was 2500 year ago..by the time the prophet muhammed(pbuh) appeared it would make sense that he would warn against the dangers of music.
@@As-fs6qd That is an interesting comparison. I agree that there are some unhealthy music in the world. It is like junk food. We need to distinguish between junk food and good food. Likewise, we have to distinguish between healthy music and unhealthy music.
Thank you so much for putting yourself in danger, risking your life to play music and sing in these very very secret locations! (for real tho, awesome video. Loved the sass, loved the music even more💜)
As a left wing political radical, I cannot thank you enough for that final segment on the politics of progressive Islam. I grew up as an Orthodox Serb in a majority Muslim area of Serbia, and my relationship to Islam has always been extremely complicated. It existed within a multidirectional dichotomy of my daily life next to Muslims in all of their human complexity and local cultural particularities, my nation's past of Ottoman servitude, the 90s war, our support for many Muslim countries in the face of Western meddling... it could feel like I was being pulled apart mentally at times. As I grew in knowledge of many fields of social science and discovered Marxism, I slowly reconciled many of these contradictions the best I could, understanding the particular form of Orientalism that was the bedrock of my past confusion and dismantling it bit by bit. But eventually, being a Marxist in the communication age, I came in contact with Western progressive Muslims. I still consider them comrades and recognize their worldviews in many aspects, but the amount of downright insulting idealization I've had to listen to from them is insane. First they'd be "on my side" in a debate with some right winger, explaining to them that the Ottoman Empire wasn't Mordor on Earth and how laughably simplistic and innacurate their vision of it was. Then they'd go ahead and say it was actually a beacon of progressive valued for its time, and when I told them "well, actually, they still kidnapped children and s3xu4lly enslaved women, all the way into the early 20th century, here's how I know", BAM, all of a sudden I was just yet another white Islamophobe propping up evil Western propaganda with no basis in reality. Islam has progressive currents worked into the very fabric of the religion, as all religions do, and it's good to recognize them, but not at the cost of whitewashing the aspects which are downright irreconcilable with modern progressive values, and that's not even getting into the fact that Islamic people and states are capable of engaging in bad behavior for REASONS OTHER THAN BEING MUSLIMS (ie. many of the more brutal aspects of the Ottoman Empire - the "empire" bit is what matters there). I honestly think that the existence of modern Western progressive Islam is a consequence of it being *Western*. Modern Western political narratives largely depend on the creation of these molds to put cultures in which would differentiate them from the West in order to justify having a particular relation to them. For right wingers, the Islamic world is Mordor. For progressive Western Muslims, it is Gondor. Neither of them go outside the paradigm, because to do so would challenge the ideology of Othering they've been inundated with since birth. In all of this cultural and ideological chaos, the true, full humanity of Islam and Muslims is fully lost. To deny someone not merely the capacity to be either good or bad, but to be both, is to dehumanize them. Sorry for the long comment, and I'm aware I might not have been perfectly clear. Thanks for the video, it really spoke to me.
Couldn't agree more. The Ottoman Empire bit particularly speaks to me. I did a degree in historical studies here in Canada, and one day the entirely white, western body of students began having a discussion about the history of victimisation of Muslims. None of the events they pointed to were wrong; the expulsion of Muslims from Iberia, the massacres of the Muslims of the Peleponese during the Greek Revolution, etc. But they were cherrypicking in such a slanted way that made it look like the Muslims were the ultimate oppressed downtrod people of humanity; an incredibly popular narrative within radical leftism where the very real struggles of Muslim minorities in the West are extrapolated worldwide, and radical leftists oft forget that they're the dominant, utterly hegemonic group in their own part of the world. I spoke up for nuance, and reminded them that, in the history of the Balkans, Muslims for over 600 years were the ones to exert authority (and therefore at times oppress) over other groups. The entirely white group turned insanely defensive and accused me of Islamophobia. When I pointed out the historical reality of those claims, they began going "what about the Crusaders killing Muslims," (which yeah, I recognise too obviously, I have an entire song about it on my channel) and some went as far as claiming history was falsified, and the kidnapping of Christian kids in the Balkans to become Janissaries and eunuchs was falsified Balkan propaganda. We were doing an academic history degree, and some in the group were literally advocating for conspiracy theory and historical denialism. That's how intense the fanatical defensiveness of so called wokes can get with Islam. The right-wing dehumanisation and racism is wrong but this isn't the solution either. And some of those left-wingers are genuinely psychotic about it.
All food was halal to the children of Israel save what Israel made haram upon himself before the Torah was sent down. Say thou: “Bring the Torah and recite it, if you be truthful.” (3:93)
@@tweed0929 lol you can believe something to be sinful and still do it. hypocrisy is saying you yourself don’t do something and then do it. 38:18 is a great example
Speak for yourself. A lot of Muslims still abstain from music. In fact even in a place like the UK, a land of music and Kufr, the majority of Muslims I know don’t listen to music - and I am in a position where I regularly interact with a range of different muslims
Excellent video as always, and I have to say as a Muslim it's quite nuanced and balanced. One thing I want to mention as someone who lives in the Middle East, specifically in the gulf area, is that we do have music classes at school. Hell, even in university, there's a music major in my college and we have lots of artists and musicians who make music about many things including love but it's not heavily explicit or inappropriate atleast to my knowledge. (I mostly listen to "old timey" or traditional music but occasionally listen to popular music)
These videos essays are genuinely so interesting. I am a christian but i always love learning about other religions and cultures, and i think its so important to debunk false informations about religions
Good job at tackling such a complex, often misrepresented topic. During my ethnomusicology master's I took a module called "Ethnicity, religion and gender in Middle Eastern musical cultures", which was utterly fascinating, especially the grey areas of toleration, and touching on a lot you've managed to squeeze into 72 minutes, and more besides, e.g., famous Turkish trans singers like Bülent Ersoy and Selin Ciğerci. Also, when I studied Turkish ney, the first dozen pieces were ilahiler, so religious (granted, specifically Sufi) music before tackling any Ottoman classical music. The notion there would be absolutely no music is simply one I can't begin to understand, because someone somewhere would still find a way to make and distribute music; we have tons of examples of this after all (underground continuation, cassette culture, mobile phone music sharing, etc.).
I'll be honest, I don't know why would radical right wingers have a problem with Islamic view of homosexuality. I would expect this one at least to be a point of broad agreement, lol. The sections of "the right" that harp on this particular point are usually libertarians and neocons, which are both groups that most far right people find extremely disagreeable, if not contemptable.
In general, conservative groups tend to follow a pattern of "as soon as something gets into our Overton window, foreign conservatives become evil for not approving it". There is nobody more enthusiastically feminist than a conservative complaining about patriarcal immigrants. Similarly, in my experience moderate conservatives have gone pretty quickly from "gay marriage is a slippery slope, we shouldn't allow it" to "fine, whatever, it's not my problem" to "easterners are evil for oppressing gays".
Thats because many "right-wingers" are just leftists seeing an issue with a religion that goes against their values. Its the lefts crazy embracing of a misogynistic religion that made many people see themselves as not leftist anymore. Its the lefts insane switch in morality "yeah christianity is bad, but this much worse religion is great" that drove sane people towards the right.
@@Olivman7 The irony of conservative groups is that, due to the racism embedded in their midst, they've pushed away Muslim minorities, the demographic probably most similar to them in terms of worldview. By all rights, the natural political alliance in the culture wars should have been between them. It's Shakesperean in its irony
@@faryafaraji I'm also a conservative, but one influenced by the left on some issues. For example, while I like the 'Western Civilisation', I'm not a 'Defend the West' guy. I am opposed to this 'soft' racism that regards most non-western cultures as barbarian, the one that views the East as a monolith. While I'm not a Muslim and I am very critical towards some branches of Islam, I do think that I have a lot in common with more moderate Muslims, and I'll always side with a Muslim from the Middle East against a neocon. This may be because I'm not sure if I myself am a westerner or not, because I'm Romanian. I see how it is for my culture to be presented in a stereotypical way, so I try not to do the same to others.
As a young “Western” Muslim who has been studying and talking to various people regarding Islam’s position on music, this video is very informative and nuanced. Also, what I finding lacking in the scholars that are online from whom we seek Islamic guidance is that they lack the sort of nuances you provided in this video. If they are from one school of thought, more often than not, they would just stick to what that madhab teaches without any clarification of what other schools teach. Hence, the varying positions on music found in Islam.
@@Sustain_life Noise, noise comes out. Musical instruments are not allowed no matter which madhabh you look into, what is allowed is singing or music without the instruments
Bro was anti-Semitic to the fullest extent of the word - when it comes to hating on the Semites, he does not discriminate. However, brown people applies to a lot more people than just the Semites and I feel this is a territory he has yet to explore.
@@someguy2744 I once perused a database of slurs in a fit of morbid curiosity. One thing I noticed is that you can describe any ethnicity of human with the formula "[topical noun] [n-word]". This reinforced to me that racists really only see people in two groups: like-me and not-like-me. To a white racist, it's just white people and different flavors of brown people.
The comment implies Semites isn’t separate from Jews, but gives it as an example. Racists love to use semites as meaning Jews and Muslims (specifically Arabs). But it’s extra ignorant and racist because homey here is Persian, not Arab. He’s literally Aryan. Dude was just straight up openly racist. I’m shocked those people are still on RUclips.
@ferretyluv Than I guess you must not have been around the internet the last decade. Everything got political lately and extremists from both sides aren't to hard to find on yt, watch a bit of history or about some game and yt will send you something political related to it, click this and next thing you know half your home page will be filled with political or ideological material that is supposed to engage you in watching more yt. I think you may have missread this comment, or I did. "[...] deceit common to Eastern races, Semites, Jews, etc." Looks form me like some kind of list that actually separates Jews from Semites and than he was out of ideas, maybe though he separated them as he doesn't know any other ethnic group east of him.
Again you bless us with a long Lenght video that I prefer to define as a documental, going from making music about Turkish culture, French, roman, norse, explaining the wrong concept of what is a viking and what is Scandinavian iron age music now this! Islamic culture, history and music RUclips is too small for you, farja, I hope you get to reach higher levels, I'm not implying ted talks (would be nice tho) but mayb streaming! Or even making public lectures. You sir are a moving, speaking, hearing and breathing library
Your last segment I fully agree with, even though it might've been outside the scope of the Music and Islam discussion. I would point out that Medieval Muslims did reinterpret verses that could very easily be read literally. The Quran for example, seems to accept a flat earth cosmology on a very literal reading, but some Medieval Muslims on being familiarized with Greek Natural Philosophy rejected such a reading, some fans of Aristotle would go as far as reinterpreting the very established timeline of Abrahamic thought to align with the idea that the universe was eternal and uncreated, etc. Reinterpreting Islam due to an external culture isn't necessarily new.
I agree fully, but I would add two additional nuances for anyone reading your comment: • Whilst it's true that many verses that could be interpreted literally were interpreted allegorically, the relevant point of this segment is that the verses deemed "problematic" from a Western perspective traditionally weren't. It remains accurate to state, that across the normative reality of Islam, scholars did not approach verses regarding husband/wives relationships as esoterical allegories for environmentalism. The promulgation of this concept specific to *those verses* is the misinformation that I'm calling out. Some verses typically viewed as literal were indeed viewed as allegorical by some scholars, but not those condemning homosexuality or those upholding patriarchal norms for marriage, at least not to any significant extent. • "Reinterpreting Islam due to an external culture isn't necessarily new." Most definitely, I agree with you here. However reinterpreting Islam to turn it compatible with Western progressivism is new. Progressive Islam isn't novel in its modification of Islam to fit another culture, but it is extremely novel for being the first to do so with Western progressivist values. Furthermore, whilst most of the cultures Islam was previously modified to fit were generally anthropologically contiguous with historical norms of pre-modern Eurasia and North Africa, it can be argued that progressive Islam of the West is to date, the most bold, extreme re-interpretation to occur, as Western post-enlightenment culture is (arguably) more radically different from Islam's traditional values than any of the other cultures it was previously modified to fit.
@@faryafaraji I don't know if you are familiar with the channel Red Star, by Dr. Taimur Rahman. He is a Pakistani political science professor (and a rock musician 😊). He has a very good ongoing series of lectures on the history of political Islam and the history of the schools of jurisprudence. He seems to see the decline of Mu'tazilism and the rise of the Hanbali school following the Mihna as a certain turning point in Islamic communities becoming more literal in their reading of the Qur'an. The Mu'tazilites believed that only Allah was uncreated and that the Qur'an was created, giving them a bit more philosophical and theological leeway in interpreting the scripture. An interesting fact is that the Islamic Golden Age and the translation movement coincide with the peak of the popularity of Mu'tazilism and a lot of the philosophers that were involved in the translation movement were apparently Mu'tazilites. It's an interesting perspective on history and I'm curious about your opinion. I'm Moldovan and atheist. My interest in the question is purely historical, anthropological and cultural.
@@faryafarajiAgreed. Usually such forms of reinterpretation takes the forms of a social blend, such as Jews inducing Confucian elements while in China and Muslims in India conforming to the caste system. Progressive Islam seems to be an attempt to submit 'Islam' at the great altar of Western progressivism, and make sure it goes unscathed, and to assure the white liberal westerner (of some who already have a disposition to view non western cultures through the noble savage lens as benign and beautiful, bursting with ancient wisdom) this in turn does impact western Islam, but one could argue it also makes it formulaic and sheds any cultural originality, as everyone turns into the same progressive with their cultural worldview devolved into an 'aesthetic'
The Qur'an doesn't support flat-earth like the Bible, or hindu scriptures, Qur'an has no mention of earth's shape, buts it's says:- 1. NEITHER EARTH, NOR HEAVENS HAVE ANY PILLARS ie. Earth is not static ( 31;10) 2. THE EARTH'S MOUNTAINS ARE CONSTANTLY REVOLVING LIKE THE CLOUNDS IN THE SKY ie. Earth is revolving (27:88) 3. Hadith say that the person who shall steal land has to wear 7 earth's as a necklaces, earths is compared as a bead ie. Spherical. (Sahih Al Bukhari 3195) 4. Ultra orthodox, anti-philosophy theologans like Ibn taimiyyah believed in round earth (majmoo al fatwah 25/195)
jesus christ that second comment at 8:37 is just confidently using 'oriental' like that....the audacity. also i dont know if i was imagining it but it sounded like 'toxic' was playing in the background of those comment readings lmao
Right? I was like, ‘Yeesh’ on the first and then that second…. Oy vey. They pit us against one another, then play the real card, the Mega-Double-Secret-Probation-Uno of Dumb But Armed and they’ve got the nukes and state capture and and tyrants reign and I gotta stop thinking about it; keep the faith, cousin. Farya will help us along 🤙
This is a wonderful video! I love music and I am into history and religious studies, so this hits the right spots! I am also a practicing Muslim and grew up with a tradition that saw music as permissible without much caveats. This was not the most popular position in religious circles, but the opinion was always there, and the general permissibility of music is becoming more popular these days. (Of course the history of this and how much it applies to every day life and how many people care about it is a different story as you already extensively explained in your video) I believe the highest form of respect is presenting things with honesty, and the amount of research and detail you gave in presenting the complexity of the Islamic position is truly admirable and I can't ask for anything more. It is unfortunate that in the public sphere when it comes to Islam, we are often stuck between extreme demonization (and don't get me started when this attitude is mixed with a certain brand of nationalism, especially by some in the diaspora) or weird infantilization that reduces Islam into a progressive "vibe". Both dismiss the complexity and nuance of what's actually there and rely on deliberate misinformation. Regardless if we agree with everything in it or not, I think every tradition is at least owed the decency of taking it seriously and presenting it as is. If I may add a couple of points (which are complimentary to what you have presented): 1- When it comes to jurisprudence, another layer of complexity is the topic of applying the rulings; if the textbook ruling is X is forbidden, there is still the question whether the thing you encountered in the real world is actually the same as X and whether the rule applies. 2- This is important because some rulings are understood to be contextual or conditional. This is the case in most non-ritualistic rulings. Sometimes something is forbidden, not for itself, but because of some perceived effect; so if the effect is not applicable, the ruling is not applicable. There is also the question of how a ruling can be applied in light of other rulings and the general goals and objectives of religion. (For example, even if you think something is obligatory, but enforcing it would lead to greater harm, then scholars generally say you should not enforce it) 3- So for example, the verse about wife obeying their husbands, most traditional scholars will contextualize it to be limited to things implied by the marriage contract; so it is not unlimited obedience, it is specific to certain things, and a lot can be negotiated and changed based on social norms. (This is still probably not the progressive ideal, but it is also more nuanced than just "woman. obey" and shows how things can be negotiated and changed even with scripture) 4- Of course all this talk is within the realm of textbook laws, but even for practicing religious Muslims, this is not the end of the story. Muslims still hold complex system of ethics beyond the legal aspect. (For this point specifically Dr. Marion Katz's book and academic lectures are recommended)
Great video defying stereotypes I would seriously love to see you doing a documentary or something on Spanish Music in Latin America. It would be so cool. But that's different of course from the subject of your video.
Brother, wdym "Spanish Music"? Are you talking about how people in Latin America have tunas (musical group) in their universities (as do the universities of Spain) and can learn Flamenco if they so choose, or are you referring literally any music made by Latin Americans? Because if it's the latter, that would just be Latin American music, Spanish music is *specific to Spain.*
Thanks farya faraji to You talk about this As a Muslim i like your music and i I have been looking for an answer to this question for a long time and There is no definitive answer to this question Thank you farya faraji
Always amazing to watch your videos! Even us who know a lot of information on the topic, we enjoy watching the information be presented in a very cool setting, and at the same time, see the others learn! It's one thing to learn from a book, another to watch a well-presented video, just like people who read books, would love to watch a movie based on the book!
If he is that kind of religious person, why is he following you on any platform in the first place? Always love when you give us a glimpse of your grandfather. And even though you don’t belong to my faith (or any as you stated), may you live a long life and make his memory be eternal. (There, Farya, finally made a comment and congratulations on 300k+). Edit: those taverns in Constantinople (Eis tin Polin) were as those taverns in Elounda that you wrote a symphony on. ;) (Couldn’t resist stating the facts, as you also stated.)
10:01 im so glad james bond was there to help you find the hidden orient in a turkish music shop 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻 where would we be without the anglosphere cultural preservation
I don't think many of the Saudi clerics/scholars would dare touch the subject matter of Khashoggi and freedom of press in Saudi Arabia - they would be jailed or out of a job very quickly for introducing fasad (turmoil) in the kingdom.
Alhamdhulillah I am a Muslim and there are many opinions in Islam we are diverse we aren’t monolith For us Sufi naqshbandi music can be a way of getting close to him or farther away
ngl im a devout muslim and i agree with pretty much everything you covered thank you for clearing this up i might even use your video as reference in the future great video btw can't wait for your next upload
This is incredibly insightful, great video once again. I am not Muslim I simply enjoy a lot of music from MENA and from artists in the diaspora who are mostly Muslim. I'm not an expert on this topic either, clearly -- but I am of a minority religion where I live also and it is very frustrating getting the same questions all the time, based on misconceptions, that also have nuanced answers, and I need to answer in a way that reflects that but doesn't invalidate anybody's beliefs/traditions. 😭 To anyone reading this, whatever you believe, genuinely I hope it is fulfilling for you and helps guide you to do good, instead of it being a tool of oppression onto you or others. When the case is the former, there's nothing to argue with.
Hi Farya :) I just wanted to thank you as a musicologist candidate (doing my master degree on musicology) in Germany and coming from Turkey, you just speak all my feelings when i have to deal with “Questions”. I feel so understood and not alone because of your content 🙏🏻
Your video explanations are some of the best in-depth informational videos on youtube, imo! They're very engaging, clear, well-argued and nuanced. And most of all: they leave me knowing something actually new and useful in my approaches in daily and social life, and peaking my interest to actually get to know more about (in this case Islamic) cultures and how to engage with them. Keep up the good work!
It really doesn't make sense to me when people think that there is no music in the Islamic world DUE TO Islam. Whereas many pieces of music do exist BECAUSE of Islam. In my home country Pakistan for example, songs related to praising the prophet are widespread. Tu Kuja Man Kuja for example is one of the most famous songs of praise
As an Indian, I am floored by the incredible contributions from Moghuls to art, architecture, poetry and music. And then I feel disheartened to see the far-right Hindutva trying to erase all of this complex culture.
Saying there are no Muslim musicians is like saying there are no Christians that wear clothing woven of more than one type of cloth. Wild that people that consider themselves "enlightened" for being born in a "secular" society (a lot of "secular" states are a lot more entwined with their founding religious theologies in their ideological construction and material and legal operation than people like to admit) STILL don't understand that religions have different interpretations.
And thank you for laying things out clearly that revolutionary progressive interpretations are just that, revolutionary attempts to bring ancient practices into a new standard. As something of a vile, heretical Neo-shinto-hindi-agnostic-aetheist-theocratic-post-modernist-true-believer when it comes to theological concerns myself, I think it's best if we all just be honest about the history and circumstance of the literature, it's evolution and what we want to make of it in the future.
Valid point but there was no need to spit on secular states. It is a needed transition to modernism, we must abandon all spiritual chains to let the trechnoligarchy reignd
One thing you hint at in the last section but don't explicitly lay out is that, while progressive Christians can always use the escape hatch of "everything in the Old Testament is approximative and a product of its time, the New Testament is the real deal and Jesus's teachings are the word of God" and filter out most of the bigoted messages of the Bible (and filter out Genesis and other archeologically disproved stuff), Islam's "the Quran is the word of Allah, no second editions" principle means that Muslim progressives are in a much tougher bind reconciling their religion with their values.
@@igorjee as I understood Islam actually has a certain division, but it's not quite what we would call secularism. The channel Red Star has a good number of lectures on the political history of Islam. The channel is by a Marxist professor from Pakistan. Very good educational content.
@@igorjeeThe Lutheran state churches in early modern period Europe were sometimes brutal organs of suppression. The Lutheran state church was a partnership between faith and crown. A church to service the national need, with a granted monopoly to do so and the enforcement powers of the crown backing it.
@@igorjeeThe general principle before and following the wars of religion is that the sovereign has freedom of religion. The national religion (of freedom thereof or exceptions from it in some cases) is what the sovereign wills it to be.
Progressivism, Liberalism, Communism etc, are mutations of Protestant Christianity. Obviously Islam will have a harder time conforming to the final stage of a culture that's foreign to it. Muslims will be able to, the islamic world will always have that tension.
The first thing I did in Istanbul was visit a music shop and bought like 10 albums of traditional music. My wife was afraid for my life as the activity was clearly illegal, especially for an American.
@@ArdaUnhail I saw a guy in the middle of Istanbul. He was being execut3d for playing music in public. As his lifeless body lurched forward, his baglama fell out of his hands and rolled down the pavement next to a stream of his bl00d. The tourists we appalled but also seemingly entranced by the view of such a barbaric scene from a bygone age.
@@faryafaraji Oh, I didn't know that. I did see a sudden congregation of cats at the site though. Büyük müzik haram or not, the streets of Istanbul are truly woven with enchanting stories. And facts like these make them even more intriguing.
@faryafaraji that explains their eternal presence, but they will not desuade me. Seriously, I love your work, man! Discovered your channel shortly after my visit to Türkiye in 2021. Keep up the good work!
its also just super reductive and erasure of the vast religious diversity of the region. West Asia is home to many different faiths, and the idea of the monolithic "Islam" is simply false. We have Christians (Orthodox and Catholic) Muslims (Sunni and Shia) Alawites Druze etc
Hello, my dear Faria! I hope you are always healthy and cheerful so that you can continue to make these fascinating videos! I am a Shia Muslim from Iran. And in my opinion, your video was nothing more than "an hour of truth telling". It is foolish to think that Islam and its ideas have always been the same everywhere and I really enjoyed watching your wise words! Although I am by no means an intellectual or revolutionary in Islam, most of those around me consider me a radical. But I have accepted that I cannot be a good Muslim without accepting the facts and knowing the truth of what I believe. Those who close their eyes and worship God without knowing why, even according to the Quran, have a lesser reward than those who do so with reason and will... Anyway, thank you for speaking so intelligently and logically, and I look forward to your videos and songs in the future!
in the inevitability of sin part, I am a muslim, and I live in a muslim country and grew up in a islamic school(not regular type of school) we are constantly being reminded we as a muslim has to consistently ask for forgiveness because we are not perfect and will cause sin doesn't matter if we know we did a sin or not.
I grew up in Sudan (a very Muslim Theocracy). There was absolutely music there. We'd go out at night and play music after our work was done. The MOSQUES would do prayer call with singing. This is a wonderful video, and did a wonderful representation of the subject, and as someone who grew up in heavy Islamic Culture (I am non-religious now) I feel you did a good job representing the subject from a religious perspective. That said... My brother is a Christian. My brother has gout. My brother is a glutton. This means my brother is a sinner. How is this possible if my brother is a Christian?! 🤣 (I kid, I kid)
There is a bunch of nastier little sects who embrace success theology. The divine will give you literal material benefits, and if these do not manifest you did not believe hard enough. This is usually the realm of fringe, harmful cults.
As a Muslim of Persian origin as well, I love your pieces especially "The Janissary" and "Pirates of the Mediterranean". May Allah guide you and enlighten your life as you have played a part in enlightening ours.
Another amazing video! It's mindblowing to me that some people really believe that middle eastern music doesn't exist/isn't accessible. All they have to do is a quick Google search and so many will pop up!
There is this inside joke/stereotype in South Asia, that if there is any metal/grunge/punk music band, its likely a muslim band. Sufi rock is apparently a genre
I like it, too. To my American ears, the tempo often throws me off at the beginning, mainly because I’m so used to hearing 4-8 tempo sets, but once you get the Khaliji beat, it sounds so fun to dance to.
As someone who himself is addicted to dissecting everything, its fun to see someone else do the same, regardless of the topic in discussion. It'd be nice if you did more.
Love the mix of well done explanations, presentation of information and humor. I've learned so much from your videos, and I'm glad you're sharing all of this with us.
Ethnomusicologist. Educator in theology. Linguist. Perso-Canadian Cowboy. Cat Enthusiast. Amazing Musician. You wear many hats, @faryafaraji, but I’ve only the one to tip to you in reverence. Keep shining your light, homie.
I know some Muslims who shun music (along with dancing and other things). Not all of them but a few that I know. It's their right to have that belief but I think it's a bit sad to think the entire musical traditions of your culture are sinful. What really upsets me is when people start imposing that belief on others like on Afghanistan and banning everyone from listening to music. It's erasing so much cultural heritage.
I don't know how Muslims in other countries are, but we Turks have a special importance in music. In the Turkish-Islamic civilization, the Anatolian Seljuk Period and the Ottoman Empire, they believed that music was healing, and various music was played to people who were sick, There is an event called "Dhikr"(Zikir) , in which we remember Allah and repeat the names of Allah through Islamic music. I don't know if Alevis (Anatolian Alevis) are considered Muslims, but music has an important place in them as well. (I hope I wrote what I wanted to say correctly, My English is not good)
In the logic of Islam, if someone worships the one God of Islam, regardless of whether they follow the first three caliphs or not, they are a Muslim brother (abi) , get educated ❤
Biz Türk ve Türkler sayesinde İslam'la tanışmış Balkan Müslümanları ile öbür Müslüman ülkelerdeki Müslümanlar arasında dağlar kadar fark var. Özellikle Güney Asya Müslümanları çok aşırı ve mantıksız derecede tutucular. Ben bunu anladım.
Thank you for all your work, lately it keeps me so much all together, and i am learning so much. Btw Varanian Saga is on repeat. Greetings from Denmark.
37:17 This part is sooo true and soooo funny! Holy shit, YES, the fact of you believing in teachings of a Religion doesn't stop you from being a human, Jesus Christ!
I only just last year found out that there was debate about music in Islam when I read on the history of bells around the world. I can’t believe I didn’t know for so long! Of course it makes sense with the way that images have been debated in religion across history, so would music. I’m very excited to watch this video, thanks so much for sharing your knowledge about music and culture and history!
I'm born and raised in Portugal, the whole peninsula was bathed in, along others, muslim influences in science and culture. This is still obvious today. Though we do have social problems, biases and misconceptions that you'd sadly expect, I don't find any relating to music. If anything, anyone who knows a bit about the history of portuguese music, knows about it's arabic/muslim influences. I was unaware of this large scale idea of music being prohibited, and many other things you brought up. Thanks for the video, and all the literature attached.
![Blox Fruits Dragon Rework Update [Full Stream]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/EqDAp8udhm0/mqdefault.jpg)
CLARIFICATIONS AND CORRECTIONS:
• *For anyone interested in more content about the Islamic world with a well-sourced, anthropological perspective*
I highly recommend the channel Let's Talk Religion, in my opinion the best channel on the platform for these subjects: youtube.com/@letstalkreligion?si=4JNQ8AtsubEZQdN-
• *For the people surprised at my knowledge of Islamic theology/those telling me to stick to music and my expertise*
My academic background is in history, one of my particular focuses having been early-modern European and Islamic societies and their religious realities, which included academic religious studies. Just because this channel is musical doesn't mean my person-hood begins and ends at music. Music is far from being my main area of expertise, it just happens to be one I got recognised for. Also, for those who haven't realised, I was born in, and lived in an Islamic state, one of the world's few, actual Islamic theocracies, so dismissing me by claiming I'm peeping into a subject utterly foreign to me is somewhat comical. With all that said, if dissenting voices are fixating on me being a musician to dismiss the material presented here, it shows they don't have solid counters to said material.
• *You said the Quran doesn't mention music, but some Muslims believe it does*
A fair enough point. I should have expressed myself better there. The Quran neither mentions music by name nor explicitly describes it, but in Surah Luqman 31, diversions from religion are mentioned, usually translated as "idle-talk" or "frivolous discussions." Anti-music Muslims believe this to refer to music. Here are diverse translations of the text: corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=31&verse=6
This is where I believe a few additional words on the practice of tafsir, Quranic interpretation at the literal level, are necessary. I cannot play double standards here. If I am to openly point out the extreme liberality of interpretation employed by progressive Western Muslims, I need to do the same with Salafis and other anti-music Muslims regarding this "idle-talk" verse. Surah Al-A'raf says men who approach other men with lust are transgressors, and progressive Muslims claim nothing in this constitutes a condemnation of homosexuality. Surah Luqman talks about idle-talk, and Salafis conclude this is about music. One side negates the extreme clarity of the text, the other projects absolute clarity where there is none.
Whilst we cannot, from an anthropological view, judge whether they're theologically wrong, we may recognise the fact that at the level of literal reading, the phrase: "the Quran condemns homosexual sex and doesn't mention music," is entirely accurate, and does not constitute mischaracterisation of the Quran, therefore I stand by both statements. We should however recognise that many Muslims disagree with either of those two statements, but do so using more lavish exegetical maneuvers than normal, hence why both these statements never managed to secure a normative, mainstream, pan-Islam defining status. The interpretations of the Quran that dominated and shaped most of Islam as we know have usually tended towards those where the correspondence between text and interpretation was closest, like: "prohibited to you is the flesh of swine = eating pork is sinful."
Concluding pro-gay sex sentiment out of the story of Lot, and music out of "idle-talk" isn't quite as straightforward, hence their failure to secure theological predominance.
• *You claim Surah An-Nisah says wives should be obedient to their husbands, but it is entirely possible that the obedience talked about here is towards God, and therefore this verse is not necessarily patriarchal*
A fair point up until the last part, which is nonsense. An-Nisah 34 says: "righteous/good women are obedient." It doesn't actually specify "to their husbands" in the Arabic text. In the video, I categorically stated "to their husbands," while filming, forgetting to add that the husband part is definitive insofar as the practical, majority interpretation goes throughout mainstream Islam, but it's true this isn't in the text itself, my apologies for this slip-up. Here's why this detail changes nothing to my ultimate point, however.
1. The interpretation that women are to be obedient *to their husbands* is the standart interpretation in Islamic jurisprudence throughout history (insofar as the 4 traditional Sunni madhabs are concerned, as well as the main Shia madhabs,) and the one where obedient means "to God," is mainly tied to modernist reform movements. In pointing out that the verse *can* be interpreted as "obedient to God," progressive Muslims aren't debunking me. I'm not arguing what the correct interpretation of the faith is, I'm arguing what the normative one is. "Obedient to God" isn't the dominant interpretation in mainstream Islam.
2. Progressive Western Muslims use this as a "gotcha," claiming this invalidates the notion that this verse upholds patriarchal norms. Let us, for the sake of argument, pretend that their reading is the dominant interpretation of Islam.
The rest of the ayah goes as follow: for those women who do not obey, husbands are to remind them of their obedience (we'll assume it's to God) by talking to them, then if that doesn't work, disengaging from sexual contact, and as a last resort, they may physically admonish their wives, with a span of interpretation ranging from slaps on certain parts of the body, to symbolically hitting with a toothbrush. This, according to progressive Western Muslims, is in line with Western ideas of gender-equality. That if a woman forgets piety, she is to be set straight by her husband, with the Quran assigning clear, traditional gender roles to man and wife, with husband being given the authority of exerting discipline unto the wife. Progressive Muslims are going "see?! it's not AS patriarchal as the other reading!" Cool, congrats. The metrics of Western feminism would still deem this interpretation offensively sexist. No matter the interpretation, Surah An-Nisa ends up prescribing traditional gender roles for Muslims to follow: the very things deemed the DNA of misogyny by Western feminism.
I stand by my comments in the video, as my ultimate point remains unchanged: the negationist myth that Islam, in its practical reality, is a religion defined by principles compatible with modern Western feminist ones, is a narrative of historical denialism of the most comical extravagance, as no matter how one interprets the Quran (outside of reading to a completely allegorical level, which was virtually never the case for these verses), every possible outcome leads to a value system that is the dictionary definition of what constitutes outright sexism by the metrics of Western feminism. And this is not shameful of Islam. No one expects any other outcome, not for Christianity, not for Judaism. Islam's Quranic verses emerged 1400 years ago. The clear wording of the scripture locks interpretation (at least non-allegorical ones, ʿIlm al-Ḥurūf, etc, which were never normative) within a limited range of possibilities, that range venturing no further than the limits of what a medieval/late antique culture could have conceived of in terms of gender roles.
Once again, I reiterate the right of progressive Western Muslims to believe that their interpretation of Islam is the correct one, and that the normative methods of interpreting the texts are wrong. But they can make no claims of representing the, or even a majority, or even a significant portion of Islam across its history, as the normative, hegemonic methods of interpretation that dominated and shaped the religion simply cannot, and indeed did not yield 21st century, egalitarian, Western feminist values across Islamic history. Perhaps these minority, atypical Muslims have access to the real truth of Islam, and perhaps it will come to be the definitive, majority expression of Islam in the centuries to come. In this, we cannot essentialise the religion as non-Western compatible in an absolute sense, for we must remember all religions are dynamic and can change over time, and the intellectual maneuvers these Muslims engage in are exactly the kind we see across history that led to the evolution and creation of religions as we know them. But we can, absolutely, reject their historically negationist claims that, as of now, Western egalitarian gender principles have been a normative reality of Islam rooted in its scriptures. That is not an essentialising judgement, but an anthropological assessment.
Quranic word-for-word resources:
quranwbw.com
corpus.quran.com
Sources:
Islam and Music: The Legal and Spiritual Dimensions, Nasr, Seyyed Hossein.
Music in the World of Islam: A Socio-Cultural Study, Shiloah, Amnon.
Detroit: Wayne State University Press, 1995.
Philosophies of Music in Medieval Islam, Fadlou Shehadi
The Modal System of pre-Dastgāh music, Arya Kabiri
The Modal System of Arabian and Persian Music, 1250 - 1500: An interpretation of Contemporary Texts, Owen Wright
Music Theory in the Safavid Era: The Taqsim-al-Nagāmat, Owen Wright
Theory and Practice in the Music of the Islamic World: Essays in Honour of Owen Wright, multiple authors
Homoeroticism in Classical Arabic Literature by J. W. Wright and Everett K. Rowson
Farahani, Fereydoun (2021). The Social Role of Iranian Music, Weekly Journal Sobhe Andishe, Issue 330, July 3, 2021, p. 6, Isfahan: Gofteman Ansideh Moaser
Music of the Ottoman Court, Walter Feldman
What Is Islam? The Importance of Being Islamic, Shahab Ahmed
00:00 Intro
01:20 Disclaimers
05:57 There is music in MENA. Period.
13:51 Anti-music sentiment in Islam
17:27 Understanding Islamic theology
26:08 There are *degrees* of sin
36:34 The inevitability of sin
39:46 Not all Muslims are devout Muslims
46:50 MENA is more than Islam
53:26 Islam isn't barbaric, it's also not progressive
THNX FOR ANOTHER FARAJI TALK!
Congratulations 🎊 on 300K subs my guy as well! All the best in gaining 400K subs in the future!
'... semites, jews, etc" #smh same thing, semites are the peoples. jews are believers, could be semites (which they originally were as far as we know) or any other race ;)
Pls make Javanese music
It's simple if every muslim truly applied what is written on the Quran the world would be literally unbearable for everyone
Sorry you got such terrible comments on your Orientalism video. It was masterfully crafted, one of the best video essays I've ever seen.
Agreed.
What I don't understand is that even if music was forbidden, the people and culture of the region didn't just appear ex nihilo. Pre-Islamic cultures existed for a long time in the region and they probably had music of their own, and even in this fantastical "all music is universally banned forever" scenario it would've still survived in some form, be it underground oral tradition or historical records. Actually, pre-Islamic music sounds like an interesting video idea.
I do have a video about Mesopotamian music of Antiquity but that's pretty much all we have in terms of evidence. The rest of the music of Antiquity, outside of the Greco-Roman system, is entirely lost with little to no evidence unfortunately
@@faryafaraji Wouldn't some Indian music also survive (just guessing, heard that most Indian music was passed down orally and still exists)
Loved your videos btw!
Music is not forbidden in islam, those who think that ares radicaliste. The coran did not forbid music, music is allowed as long as it dont insult GOD.
no actual muslims ever thought that music is haram. maybe when they say it's forbidden, they actually meant the trendy latin
Reggaeton with obsene lyrics or nicky minaj songs😂
@@AbuBakr-gm6bfSome haidths ban lust or earthly pleasures in music as i heard but its not haram unless its obvious so
I think what a lot of people miss is that the existence of a religious sermon or philosophical treatise against an activity, or a law proscribing an activity, is not evidence that the activity wasn't done--it's usually the opposite! If it wasn't happening, there would be no pressing compulsion to restrict it or speak out against it! E.g. there are Ottoman law codes forbidding marriage between Christians, Jews, or Muslims--you could only marry within your own faith. This doesn't mean Christians, Jews, and Muslims in the Ottoman Empire didn't marry each other. What it means is that the religious leaders of these three communities,who were otherwise generally free to enforce religious and civil law within their own communities, collectively agreed that interfaith marriage was a widespread problem (for them), and lobbied the Sultanate to make it illegal. That doesn't even cover if or how it was enforced after the law was made.
Great work Farya, I learned a lot from this.
Interfaith marriages hv always been prohibited 😂 Muslim men can't marry non Muslim women n vice versa
Perfect comment. This is absolutely key to understanding many widely spread misconceptions about history, religion, culture, etc. Thank you, and great example.
An example of this that comes to mind is, with classical Latin pronunciation enthusiasts, you sometimes hear “Ancient Romans never pronounced this word that way, because we have an Ancient Roman source telling people not to pronounce it that way.” But that source actually proves that some people did use that pronunciation, otherwise there would be no need for the correction.
@@ModernEphemeraand even today we see linguistic elitists saying shit like that for dialects that are entirely seperate from formal english. not much has changed lol
that is a very bad example because legal marriages would need approval from local authorities and if the family of either one was against it then it could not happen illegally either! they would have to elope and migrate or move to a different region of the empire. whereas musical instruments can be kept hidden and gatherings with musicians can also be kept out of sight from authorities or those who are against music. not possible with marriage!
I'm a Westerner who has learned a lot from these talks, do more plz
Agree agree!!!
As an Indian me too
Some Westerners really seem to believe Muslims are monolithic, and always living in perfect accordance with the Quran. The point about how prostitution, gluttony, and indeed various other things considered sinful by Christianity were present throughout Europe for as long as it has been majority Christian clearly shows how narrow-minded this view is.
I actually didn't know that some people thought music was forbidden or even absent in the entire Islamic world though. You would just as soon convince me that nobody in the West is allowed to celebrate Christmas because the Puritans forbade it.
The puritans try in Britain, after the Civil War there are suddenly a few puritans in positions of power.
Puritans have a whole thing about psalms. How psalms should be communal and not sung to the congregation, which psalms are okay and when you can sung new ones, if there should be musical instruments. In what manner they should be sung.
There is a general desire from the privy council and the mainstream bishops to control things like the theater. Usually using related matters as arguments, like drinking/brawling, the threat of crimes, ideas spreading, overt idleness/get back to work.
arabs and afghans are to blame for this
@@SusCalvin Now it makes sense why all the Muslim sects US/UK backed are such barbaric and such extremists. Salafis and Sauds in the 1920s, Jamat-A-Islami (in South Asia) in the 1930 to onward, Muslim Brotherhood (in the middle east) from the 50s to onward, later Al-Quaida, ISIS, it just gets worse and worse.
It’s not the idea of Muslims living in perfect accordance with the Quran, it’s the fear of the states that control how the population acts based on both the surah’s and hadiths, which is not a good thing, imo. There are two camps of ‘westerners’ who dislike Islam, one is out of ignorance, and the other is out of a conscious, historical reactionism against the anti-humanistic oppressions that the Abrahamic religions, primarily Christianity, had done to them back during 300s and up until the 1600s. That cultural trauma of oppression by organized religion is still fresh in the European zeitgeist. And I no doubt think this camp of people think Islam is just Christianity but worse, due to the perceived legalism and chauvinism of its followers, and the states that use it as a crowd control tool.
It is true that in all major law schools music was not deemed to be virtuous. But popular islam has not been legalistic for most of the history. Sufism, which was the mainstream in islamic world up until very recently, elevated music to a very divine position.
Very important point. Sufism was virtually the main expression of Islam from the 1100's to the 1800's.
I think the balance that is to strive for is important.
Sufism is unappealing for me due to being at risk of being too Lax and entering Shirk.
The strong legalistic aspects that Hanbali and Sha'fí try to achieve makes me feel like a lawyer, dry and hardsteeled.
There are places and need for spirituality and there areas where hard discipline and rule regulations and adherence is necessary.
Consider the process of culture and mentality of the people as a ruler and spiritual leader, than apply in accordance with the examples of the prophet and sahaba and adopt it to your stance in a timely manner.
As such no change or results will be achieved in a second.
The people of Prophet Muhammad a.s had 23 years of nurturing going for them, so it's always important to strike the balance.
@@faryafaraji Would be interesting to see you delve into qawwali. Music had always been so important to Indians that Islam would've barely gained any followers if not for sufi music.
I find it crazy (or absolutely normal) that qawwalis still follow the ancient raaga system, keeping the "Hindu" names such as Raag Saraswati, Bhairavi, Durga, etc. Even today, the average Pakistani or Indian Muslim, Hindu, or Sikh finds in music the height of spiritual experience.
The poetry too is mindblowing. Where else do you find Muslims singing about Radha and Shyam (Krishna) or Raam besides the usual Karbala, Shah-e-Madina (Muhammad), Ali, ibn-e-Maryam, Maulana Rumi, Moinuddin Chishti, or Amir Khusro?
Edit: OK, Indonesia has the Ramayana play. But personally, I love traditional, old school, qawwali.
@@eafesaf6934Why would it be too Lax?
Sufism and Legalism are not mutually exclusive, the real world is not EU4
As a Muslim, I never expect for Farya would explain the basic theology of Islam in his channel. I really enjoy your channel fr, especially your songs simply because they are so beautiful. In one hadith the Prophet said, God is beautiful and likes beautiful things. Peace!
Agreed brother
Khalas , if music ain't beautiful then what is it 😂
And he explained it pretty well actually!
Most people say that music is completely forbidden, as shown by the individuals in the early part of the video, who are Salafis/Wahhabists. This is a branch of Islamic puritans that emerged in modern Saudi Arabia during the decline of Ottoman rule there. They helped overthrow the Caliphate’s rule in Mecca and Medina, and with the support of the Saudi family, they spread their ideology throughout the modern Islamic world, including to new converts in the Western world.
There is nothing inherently wrong with these puritans, but they sometimes force their ideology on other Muslims and are quick to label other Muslims as heretics. I am from Indonesia, the farthest part of the Islamic world, where we have a rich musical tradition that dates back to the ancient Hindu-Buddhist pre-Islamic era and continued during the Islamization of our region. Music has never been an issue for us; in fact, it was even used as a tool to spread Islam here. However, this changed with the emergence of puritan ideology.
@@luthfilofianda3999my only remark about what you explained is the " there is nothing wrong inherently about these puritans" no there's plenty wrong in their creed of the Book of so called Tawheed by Ibnu Abdul AL wahhab the father of this movement, his invention of the term "grave worshipers" and him and his group basically making takfeer on 90 % of the Muslim world , where basically no one was Muslim except him and his group in Najed , this absolute deviance comes from the absolute butchering of the concept of worship by Abdul Al Wahab .
Even the most hardcore Salafi Muslims won't deny the musicality of Nasheeds or the Qur'an, even though it's not considered music itself. You could argue from an anthropological level; it's a puritanical group suppressing other forms of music for the benefit of some forms of music.
Bingo 🎯 That’s exactly how it comes across to me
Define salafi
Quran wouldn’t be considered musical at least, reciting it in a nice way is called Khushuu
Nasheeds halal, let's go nasheed metal 🎉🎉🎉
Yes its liturgical in nature which I find odd when they deny it
0:14 "one of the global epicenters of the islamic world" while strategically showing a closeup of pigeons. I see the cogs of power turning.
BILL HICKS: And the pigeons were heard saying "Coup! Coup!"
The whole argument of “if sin then why it exist” is equivalent to saying “Guys I think murder doesn’t exist since it is illegal”
I’m from Poland and literally one of the best experiences of my life in the field of music was listening to Iranians singing poetry under the Khajoo Bridge in Isfahan and 3 concerts of Kayhan Kalhor and Erdal Erzincan that I attended in London. Definitely music doesn’t exist in the middle east and I suppose that I had to be under heavy influence of some yet unknown to science drug that causes collective hallucinations of whole societies and thus some of us believe in the myth that music in islamic world exists. For sure.
I love polish sarcasm
@@MegaMayday16 It is definitely our most well mastered national sport discipline, is it not ??😂
my Mum grew up in a Christian denomination that forbade dancing, she met my Dad at a dancehall 🤣, alcohol was forbidden too yet her entire family were alcoholics, it's all the same any religion, people cherrypick everything
Dancehalls were bundled with a lot of other stuff in the historical morality debate here. The drinking, hookups, occasional brawls, general unsupervised teenagers.
I grew up in a Jehovah's Witness family. No birthdays, no holidays. But there were definitely times where going out to dinner may have accidentally coincided with a birthday COMPLETELY by accident! lol
@@madcatlady do you mind if I ask what denomination she grew up in?
music shouldn't even be in the discussion. but alcohol, ciggs, gambling is a big no.
Anyway none of this is forbidden in christianity except alcoholism. We are forbidden to be alcoholic in the Bible but allowed to drink moderatly.
I always found this matter to be interesting, since whenever the old islamic scholars talked about that music is haram and instruments, it was most of the time because the reason of forbidding was either the whole atmosphere or reputation, like how there is no party without dancers, alcohol and music, it was rare for me to read about scholar who just made it forbidden because it's essence, not to mention some scholars who allowed some form of it like imam al ghazali who said "whoever says that all music is prohibited, let him also claim that the songs of the birds are prohibited"
Exactly and I think Ibnu Hazm said something in to that essence too , this paranoia is found in our modern so called scholars who love to control the personal matters of ordinary muslims yet keep quite when it comes to people in power in Muslim countries who do every major sin under the sun , you mention music they lose their minds you mention ribba which is practiced and legalized by almost all Muslim rulers the excuses start coming out or they are usually quite , while the prohibition of ribba is waaaaay more explicit in the Quran and hadith in comparison to music .
@@omarelmorsy139 The entire premise of why it’s haram today mirrors the logic of Islamic scholars today who also declare watching too much football as impermissible.
It’s simple: it distracts you, the slave, from your most important purpose-worshiping Allah.
Less time watching football or listening to music means more time bowing, prostrating, and venerating.
i think thats rather just those scholars trying to rationalise why music in unallowed, rather than them actually believing thats why. it is very hard to rationalise many parts of islam, which is why the leaps of logic to things such as its reputation or its atmosphere is required to sufficiently explain it away
@Dogma-007 the thing is , the ruling on football ( and other similar things that can be considered 'distractions' ) isn't universal or widely accepted by scholars , in fact i would say the most common and accepted opinion is that u can watch it so long as it doesn't contain haram material ( like gambling , half naked ladies ...etc ) and it doesn't distract u from mandatory acts like the 5 prayers . However for some reason i have seen many shiekhs especially online say it is haram while providing weak or no evidence to justify their claim
they sound really dumb. so just forbid music and instruments instead of those things? what kind of logic is that? it's like forbidding drinking anything but water because of alcoholic drinks.
Fascinating stuff; I'll admit to having been totally ignorant of this clearly nuanced topic, but this is an excellent and very well articulated analysis. Great work
I found the goat!
Thanks my man, I appreciate the kind words!
I missed your essays so much! The part where you present the horrible suppression of music in Turkey and Iran was comedy gold.
But seriously, having been raised in a mostly Christian country I didn't know about this debate about music in Islam. I've learned something new thanks to you.
That last chapter was very necessary. I've seen the Lot ra*e argument in so many comment sections.
P.S. excellent recommendation about homosexuality in the Islamic world. I will watch it next since I am interested in sexuality in different cultural and historical contexts
Holy shit that second comment in the beginning really caught me off guard! I wasn’t fully paying attention and I started hearing some of the most heinous shit and I was like “what the fuck?!” and realized he was reading a stupid comment from someone.
@@zaydsamy7559 Did Goebbels write that comment? Holy shit.
"As is typical of Oriental deceit" sounds straight out of a novel from 1897 like hoooooly shit 💀💀💀💀
Guy's having a german grandpa from Argentina 💀
I never came so close to actually spitting coffee all over the keyboard in my whole life, as I did when he started reading that comment.
😂😂 some of the most wild use of the English language I've ever heard. I swear that person was born in the 1800s and fought for the confederates
I came here for the music but stayed for the anthropological and theological discussion of Islam.
This video destroyed so many misconceptions I had. Great job man!
lmao the haunted look of a man who intimately knows the sheer batshittery that can take place in canadian universities. I feel you brother
Especially regarding the specific subject talked about in this segment.
When certain protests arose in the Middle-East in which young women were getting shot at by authorities, imprisoned and tortured, for protesting mandatory hijab laws... the white, feminist female students and teachers openly stated that we should not express any support towards this movement. Since this movement fought Islamic laws, "voicing support to it would be offensive to Canada's Muslim community." Not only that, students were actively encouraged to not bring it up so the movement wouldn't gain recognition, as "it makes Islam look bad and will contribute to Islamophobia in the West." Some of my friends in the Journalism program were told that they were forbidden by the heads of faculty, mostly made up of White, fourth wave radical feminist women, from writing any articles and projects mentioning the movement.
This is just one story. I could write a novel about the other insanity I saw, like White LGBTQ activists and progressive Muslims calling a Middle-Eastern bisexual man a liar when he explained the gay right's situation in his country where homosexual men are executed; expressing the possibility of him being a pro-Israeli agent who disseminates falsified Islamophobic propaganda. The White LGBTQ activists and progressive Muslims went on to declare that gays in all of MENA have the exact same freedoms as gays in the West, and that any claim to the contrary is rooted in right-wing and Israeli racism.
On the r/progressivemuslims post of this video, the geniuses over there are claiming that I'm probably a conservative right-wing guy because I use the term "woke" to mock left-wing radicals. The reason I do, and the reason I call out Canadian universities... is precisely *because* I'm left-wing, because I care for gay rights, and women's rights. It's just that, having been born and having lived in MENA myself, my principles, my left-wing values, don't suddenly turn into a puff of cowardly smoke the very instant Islam is mentioned.
The West's left-wing political expression, most eloquently expressed in Canada's universities, isn't criticisable solely from a right-wing perspective. It's worthy of derision from a left-wing perspective too, because in practice, it has adopted the stance that all gay rights and women's rights should be actively defended... unless they're brown gays and brown women in Islamic countries. Sheer batshittery indeed.
@@faryafaraji As someone who's half chinese , i sympathize so much with your experience of binary thinking of culture in the West. Was called CIA spy multiple times by Western leftist talking about facts and my lived experience. Sometimes from people who hate the US gov less than me... Good to know that their binary thinking isn't limited to self proclaimed "communist states"
@@eridejj As a Polish leftist, I can relate. It’s always baffling when western leftists defend the USSR and Russia.
amazing video
not only strictly on music, but also really informative about islam itself. for a European, who's been brought up in islamophobic beliefs (not actively adhering to them), I've gained a new view on how rules work in Islam.
obviously, people are people,
it's just curious to see in what ways exactly people are similar throughout cultures.
in every religion, when it comes to rules, you'll find similar gray areas and Islam isn't unique in it. and that's really cool in my opinion
have a great one, cheers!
This video makes me admire your diligence and honesty, Farya. The diligence in how you thoroughly break down and analyze these erroneous points of view. You don't just scorn people which are thinking this way or simply make fun of them, but try to help show why and how it's wrong on a very basic level. And the honesty of the last part of your video really struck me. That fact that you value an objective truth more than any political agenda is a very respectable. I'm more of a leftie myself and I think if you base your rhetorics on a deliberate lies and manipulations for some short-term political success, you will lose in long-term anyway. Thank you so much for this Epic Talking video!
P.S. Before this video I thought Sufis see the music as sacred because of its role in mystical connection with the divine. But based on what you said in 27:59, it seems that I was wrong and it's more complicated thing.
Thanks for the support. Regarding the Sufi view, you're not necessarily wrong.
I would argue that, generally speaking, most Sufis view music "itself" as neither sacred nor sinful, but certain types of music as sacred, depending on the lyrical content, the message, the theme, etc. Wahhabi Muslims consider the very sound vibrations of music, the acoustic phenomenon itself, as haram. Sufis don't, but they also don't view the sound vibrations as sacred on their own, at least as far as most of them are concerned (as far as I know).
Generally, most Sufis would view music itself, the acoustical art-form at its most basic level, as neutral, neither good nor bad. Then it's up to the believer to use it in a sacred manner, which would be Sufi Music.
Singaporean Muslim here. I once saw our mufti at a local Malay rock concert. 'Nuf said, really.
Exactly , even muslims here see the banning of music as ridiculous
So much local music is made about Islam , and music and religion is so intermingled too
Do not forget to mention that Singapore has heavy metal Malay Muslim band called As-Sahar and Malaysia has Al-Farabi
local malay rock is actually far better than local malay pop concert. trendy pop songs are usually always so obscene
And
If I saw my mufti drinking alcohol, I wouldn't drink alcohol. Follow the prophet Muhammad, he is infallible, not some fallible mufti.
To be honest, as another Iranian and musician, I was actually about to be disappointed around the end of chapter 1. There is no universal rule against music in islam, but as you rightly pointed out, it does not paint a complete picture. As expected, you were incredibly thorough and insightful.
This is said to the point of it seeming cliched, but it is somehow so rare to see such nuanced points of view on the internet. It is very refreshing to hear and learn from. You have my sincere respect. Thank you also for all that you are doing to make our cultures more accessible to Westerners.
You are absolutely right, this man's picture is so honest and nuanced !
Honestly reading the comments, there should be at least two categories of "westerners" cause here in France it seems we do know much more about your cultures than Americans. I don't think there is anyone in my country who doestn't know music is considered haram by some Muslims. Maybe some very wealthy people living in Emily in Paris' world ? We even had a famous singer who stopped her career after her conversion to Islam.
I would even say it's considered haram by many Muslims, but not as bad as eating pork would be for instance, so they listen to music anyway. Like in the secular world, when there is a legal provision you know about but you don't respect it anyway cause it 's annoying and not considered to be such a big deal even by those who enacted the law. Well maybe it's a French relationship to Law and order...But you get the idea I hope. It's bad but hey, come on, it's not THAT bad.
Sorry for my English 😇
Sepās to you for doing something simple that many others don't: watching the whole video first before commenting.
99% of the hate comment I get is from
people watching one part of the video that adresses one angle, deciding I'm cherrypicking facts, assuming an agenda on my part, and writing an angry comment. I appreciate your simple gesture of understanding that I'll cover all angles eventually, but can't show them all simultaneously.
@@faryafaraji I haven't watched the video (yet) but I am entirely confident in your content - very clear that you present this material with genuine interest and passion that drives a higher standard of quality and insight as a result. I am very critical of pseudointellectual/psuedoacademic agenda pushing, and very selective about the educational material I trust - and I think you've extensively proven that you contribute not only substantive information, but worthwhile dialogue. Content like this helps us move forward a little.
@faryafaraji You're welcome! I'm afraid I've done the minimum required of me. I feel your frustration truly. It is always surprising how some can make themselves incapable of truly listening. Well, nothing can be done for the one who refuses to engage.
@user-vu1gt7or4f Americans in my experience have new levels of ignorance however I can't speak to the validity of that, it may just be their boisterous culture that calls attention to their ignorance more lol. Your perspective is enlightening in any case.
Turkish Bektashi (who lives in the Arabian peninsula) here,
Even tho most people here are wahhabis and they strongly disagree with some of my views on Islam, whenever I put a sufi or classical Ottoman music they love it. Music was not forbidden in Mecca until the House of AlSaud got into power. Even in Sunni Islam, there are many different madhabs and there is no one certain opinion on most topics. However, I can say that the Wahabbis are the only ones who claim themselves to be the rightest ones. I met many Algerians, Tunusians, Moroccans and Persians here, we all have different perspectives on what is haram or not but none of us are this strict about the music topic as much as the Saudis are.
I love your music, and Im a big fan since I discovered this channel. Keep it up man 🫡
Great video btw
Wahhabism and Salafism are heresies created by Saudi, Al-Saud dynasty and supported fully by British Empire and today's American Empire. It fits their mission of destroying Islam. They totally succeeded it.
music is considered haram by the consensus of the madhhabs and scholars of islam. unfortunately most muslims are not strict on it! just accept it is haram and move on! it is better for you to do a haram than to change haram into halal.
Many Muslim today doesn't know that Mecca was not Wahbbis until 2024
sorry but bektashi is a sect. its like saying jehovas witnesses are christian
Also, not to forget that the Ottoman Caliphs (leader of the global Muslim community) literally sponsored and funded opera houses and music centres during the 19th century.
To be honest, ottoman caliph couldn't be a good role model about Islam. They breached many Islamic rules beside music
@@PriscilliaSihombing that is true
The Ottoman Empire was the empire of the turks not really that of islam. Its about turkish culture, not strictly islam
there was even a Ottoman Sultan who composed and performed music: Selim III, who also happens to be one of the more pious sultans.
The ottoman empire was the largest and strongest Muslim empire in the world, they are the reason millions are Muslims today and a big part of the preservation of Islam what are you morons talking about lol
Malaysian here.
There are scholars here during early arrival of Islam in Southeast Asia using local culture for dawah which includes musical instruments. For example in Indonesia, Wali Songo (9 Saints) used Javanese gamelan as a medium for dawah.
Islamic scholars from Middle East such as Arabs and Iranians brought their musical instruments into Southeast Asia which spaws Middle Eastern sounding traditional music such as Ghazal and Zapin.
But Muhammad hates music.
bid'ah
Very ironic how now music is being demonised. It's almost like they are destroying the base that supported them. Like they think they are better "updated" Muslims than their ancestors.
Indonesian here to support your point 😊
@@shane1948I'm Indonesian and I find that there's a sort of cultural insecurity among some Muslims here, that they're not "doing Islam right" if it isn't the same as what the Gulf Arabs are doing.
The part about progressive Muslims is very interesting. My experience with western progressive Muslims has honestly been that they usually acknowledge they are atypical Muslims, and that mainstream Islam is very patriarchical, anti-gay, etc. I think maybe the kind of revisionism you are describing is more common in Anglo-American communities, where people are even more disconnected from mainstream MENA Islam.
As for non-Muslim westerners who have a rosy view of the religion, I agree that it is very tiring to see. I think there is also a parallel phenomenon, where “ex-Muslims” and liberals from the Islamic world have a very rosy view of Christianity and the west. At the end of the day, it is like you said: Christianity, Islam, and Judaism are all standard Abrahamic religions. But people will always think that “the grass is greener on the other side”.
Iran is a lot more secular under the hood than outsiders understand, I think. What holds Iran together today is often nationalism.
orientalism and occidentalism at play!
@@SusCalvin I've heard it said that you'll find the most and least religious muslims in the world in Iran. Makes sense, in much the same way you'd probably find the most and least religious Christians in America, which has a similar phenomenon of being deeply religious, highly educated, and a state pretty comfortable with repression.
please learn about islam from people who arent “ex-muslims” or “progressive muslims” because they wont show you the beauty of it, perhaps because they werent showed its beauty as kids themselves or because they were bullied for it. ask muslims about islam who love their religion to get a better picture, you cant just pick and choose your sources and come to a conclusion just like that without seeing both sides, because as a muslim woman myself i love islam and its genuinely the only thing that gives my life meaning, and i would love for you to enjoy its beauty as well
@@_dulee_ I absolutely agree! I do know many people who have a good relationship with Islam. I was just talking about progressive muslims and “ex-muslims” as examples of people who have an unusual relationship with Islam, but I agree that their views are skewed because of this
The difference between religious prohibition and social attitudes was a universal phenomenon in all pre-modern pre-secular societies, many european nobles were fond of “beautiful boys” as much as their muslim counterparts, had mistresses and affairs, various popes had children after having adopted the garb, who openly and publicly carried their fathers’ names etc. Oh and for colourful examples on the love of boys and alcohol in islam would be the autobiographical Baburnama, where the author Babur gives accounts of the drinking and sexual practices of every one of his relatives when the narrative reaches their death. He himself writes most fondly and elaborately of his love for a boy instead of his many wives and concubines
51:10 This example reminded me of a debate between me and some of my ignorant muslim compatriots on another issue sometimes. Some traditional religious muslim Turks think calling their children with names like Cengiz, Attila etc... (pre-Islamic Turkic-Mongolian names) is a sin and they reprimand those who give their children this kind of names. Whenever i see a post in the social media or listen a preach about "not naming children with unislamic names", i ask them why they don't deprecate names like Hüsrev, Feridun, Kahraman, Neriman etc... (pre-Islamic Persian names) which are quite prevalent in Turkey. They are baffled and then say "well, they are denizen and accustomed." Then I say there is no such thing as muslim names/non-muslim names. All they assume about names are nothing but their accustomed chiche mindset in their small cultural background.
Sorry for digressing but i couldn't help indicating this as an example on how muslims also replace core Islamic mindset with their own accustomed conservative mindset and call their traditional views as Islam. This is also problem for us, as well as misperceptions of non-muslim world's people.
Same in Greece, kind of. Now this issue is almost non-existent, I think. But choosing ancient Greek names was heavily discouraged by the priests. Almost certain some priests still do. Only biblical names, or names of saints (who had a Greek name before sainthood, like George, Dimitrios etc) were allowed.
The solution was making up a lot of saints with ancient Greek names.
Saint Apollon, for example.
Yeah.
@@Sozbir
Agree. There is no instruction in Quran or Hadith that ask muslim, born & convert, to get a name in Arabic.
The only recommendation(correct me if i'm wrong), is to use a name with good meaning.
Even better ! There are people who literally criticze even NAMING your child "Mohammad" , and consider it a sin to name your child the name of the Prophet , insane
Huh... Interesting. It doesn't really exist here in my country Indonesia
Muslim with hindus names like Indra, Rama, Wisnu, Krisna, etc is quite prevalent here. No one thought name like "Muhammad Wisnu", "Krisna Ramadhan", "Dewa" Or others as problematic lol. There's even sultanate with "Sri Indra" In their official name bruh.
Depends on the meaning of the name.
"Oriental deceit" now that's a fucking wild term dude. I would have expect that from like a weird fiction book or something, not from random youtube comments.
Excellent stuff as always man, really helping me to colour in gaps in my knowledge. Always appreciate these long and in-depth videos.
That entire comment sounded like a Measurehead dialogue line from Disco Elysium. (Because it's the exact type of neo nazi/ race essentialist brain rot that Measurehead was based on)
Muslim checking in. Great video.
I am leftist/progressive myself, but I’ve sometimes found myself at odds with other progressive Muslims that whitewash Islam. I’ve continuously maintained to other leftists that Islam is not what the right and Hollywood paint it as, but neither is it what some leftists (and tankies, tbh) paint it as.
To other Muslims that are leftists: decide where your belief stands. Don’t present your religion as something else. Present it as it is, and then either stand by the aspects of it that cause contention or otherwise acknowledge that you personally do not agree with what your religion says.
For those of you whom stand by what our religion says, be prepared to be ostracized by those leftists who are obsessed with purity testing. For those of you whose values align with progressives, be honest about what parts of your relationship with our religion are atypical.
As a fellow Leftist/Progressive Muslim myself, I agree with you. We are in a very weird state where influence from our cultures, faith and western ideology itself melds our beliefs into a very abnormal state compared to most other Muslims.
At the end of the day you have to take all of this and decide what kind of Muslim, you are and that your worldly views are effecting this. It’s often hard to accept that your religion seemingly doesn’t align with what you think is moral and true, but you simply have to if you believe it’s the word of God. This doesn’t mean you can’t treat others and your actions your own way, but you need to understand that these facts are the facts. Islam is Islam, separate from the ever changing and secular ideas of the World. Regardless, you are your own person and have still the power to respect others and be your own person.
I was wondering about that. During the last section I was thinking that if the head of the Swedish Church can be a lesbian woman, something the religion is clearly against in all kinds of ways, then muslims can do that if they like.
What is Farya's objection? That they are presenting islam as a whole as if it were like this?
As a woke leftie atheist myself, I'd rather have progressive religious people than mad-eyed misanthropes, this goes without saying.
You're reading feminism in your bronze-age scripture? Good for you! I'm reading antiracism in Tolkien, who am I to point fingers at people.
@yllejord
"What is Farya's objection? That they are presenting islam as a whole as if it were like this?"
That is exactly my objection, and clearly you're demeaning it and dismissing it, seeing it as irrelevant.
Firstly, objective truth has an intrinsic value to most of us. If someone wants to personally believe Bronze Age literature is feminist, and that Sumer was a Feminist State, good for them if that brings them personal comfort. If they start teaching this as fact in a class, or presenting this as fact through social media, then that should be combated, because this has a name: misinformation. You're literally celebrating misinformation and stating you support it. Building a future on lies is *never* the solution. And it's disturbing that people like you exist, who openly proclaim that we should go along with lies in order not to hurt people's feelings.
Secondly: it's clearly not obvious to you as someone who never lived in an Islamic state like I have, but some of the worst human rights violations on earth occur due to certain forms of Islam. When you formulate a lie that all of Islam is progressive, the reality of what happens to millions due to some forms of Islam inconveniences that lie, resulting in the need to downplay, or even censor those truths, and that is exactly the approach that has characterised Western radical left-wing politics for the past decade. This lie you celebrate has made it more difficult to speak up for LGBT rights or women's rights when it comes to the Islamic World, because now those have become left-wing taboos that are at best not actively discussed for fear of seeming "Islamophobic," or at worse, actively whitewashed. By propagating this myth that all of Islam is progressive, Western progressive Muslims have directly sabotaged millions of people victimised by very real aspects of Islamic theology by making it harder for their hardships to be recognised without being met with radical left-wing cries of "Islamophobia" and "bigotry."
I've seen women from certain Islamic countries, victims of legislative misogyny (forced to wear the hijab, imprisoned for protesting it, tortured and raped in prison) who after moving to the West, were told by progressive Muslims born in the West that they're lying about what they went through, that none of this happened, that they're simply bigoted Islamophobes. Some progressive Muslims prefer doing that, denying the suffering of millions, the VERY SAME identity groups they claim to be fighting for as progressives, rather than growing the fuck up and admitting that the interpretation they hold to be the correct one is an extreme anomaly in their own religion.
This revisionist narrative won't ever change the Islamic World, because this narrative can only grow in the West. At most, it will create a reformed progressive Islam that exists only in Western countries. And as long as you, a Western woman, can benefit from it by having progressive Muslims as your neighbours, then who gives a fuck if gay couples are executed in some distant country, and their stories are silenced, right?
Your comment is nothing short of repulsive coming from a comfortable out of touch first-worlder in Sweden responding to an Iranian's statements. Your relaxed "lol whatever" attitude towards this smacks of a privileged perspective that only knows the reality of the West. My objection comes from me believing in the same values as you, the difference is I come from and lived in the Islamic World, lending me a perspective that your narrow, first-world, leftist version of eurocentrism lacks.
I really appreciated the video too. I am always upfront about my beliefs as a Muslim, and where they diverge with Leftists on issues where they contravene the normative views of the faith. That doesn’t preclude me from engaging in areas where I know I can act constructively-in labor organizing with other Uber Drivers here in California, among other things.
"Tankies" (communists) are openly and unabashedly pro-irreligion. Progressive Islam (or any Islam) is at odds with the Marxist theory.
I've been listening to you for years, started when I was a kid. You cant believe how happy i am to see a person i appreciate and love is making a podcast or whatever you call it, keep up with good content!
Religions have denominations and those denominations have different interpretation of the script, including the prohibition of music prominent in certain denominations of Islam.
The best example for a westerner would be saying that Christianity prohibits the preachers getting married. Well, not all denominations and it has not always been like that.
There are radical denominations in all religions and they can enforce the most ridiculous bans conceivable. Religion is complex, huh?
Great video as always.
Yep, Muslim with an ethnomusicology degree here, and I take a similar approach to you, in that I just research the music that exists and don't like wasting time writing about the Islamic view(s) on music when I'm not a scholar. Tends to bog things down if every time I write about music made by Muslims, I have to go into who says it's halal and who says it's haram. (Though over the years I've ended up writing more and more about mainstream rock music, so I'm not expected to do that anymore...)
Thank you for the nuanced explanation, and for all the beautiful music on your channel. I always love listening to it and seeing the cats.
i can’t believe this is free what an incredible video
I can confirm while listening to your music, I meditate on the potassium levels in potatoes
The right scholarly way to listen to music while you ponder on such meaningful philosophy on beef or lamb for tonight.
Unfortunately, this is one of the results of the "wahhabification" of Islam, which has reached new levels with the internet. Music has always been an important part of Islamic belief-- especially of Sufism and Bektashism--in Turkey.
Fr i dont see quwaallli being haram because it influence islam
Music is not halal, period.
@@stat1c102 Ibn Arabi would not agree.
Just to add your comment, I grew up in Saudi and there has always been music and instrument shops there since even 30 years ago even at the height of the religious institutions "control" over daily life.
@@historianhilly first of all Sufis are not even muslims, secondly the sunnah strictly forbids music. As for your wahhabi tick you got there I only have to say:
"If following Ahmad ibnu Hanbal makes me a wahhabi, then I confirm myself being a wahhabi"
-Imām Imran bin Ridwan Al Lanji Al Farsi rahimahAllahu ta'ala
Fascinating content! I learned quite a lot from this well put video you made. I am a Chinese who spent several years in the USA. When I was there , I debated with conservative Christians who identify as young Earth creationists. They believe that the universe literally started on 4004BC, that the age of the Earth is only 6000 plus years, taking the 6 days that God spent to create the world as literal 6 days. I presented facts and evidences to disprove their claim but they just deny whatever. To hear that you have to explain to ignorant people that music exists throughout Islamic societies across all times reminded me of that experience I had.
Apart of that, I find it quite odd indeed that music is considered haram but so many Muslim dominated cultures still have music. Take for example in China where I came from, I grew up watching Muslim Chinese minority groups singing, dancing and playing instruments on TV galas, regardless of the relatively more secular Uyghurs or the less secular Huis. So from very young I know that the notion that music is forbidden in Muslim societies is so not true.
That being said, I noticed that the Muslim world's music you introduced does not include the ones from southeast and central Asia, and western China. In Xinjiang China, there are the 12 Muqam, which I am a fan of. The 12 Muqam is said to be compelled by the 16th century Uyghur musician Amannisa Khan, concubine to Abdurashid Khan, ruler of the Yarkent Khanate, which is modern day southern Xinjiang. There is an old movie made in the early 1990s about her story, which I remembered had scenes where the clergy of the Khanate told the ruler that he should stop his concubine from continue her work with the Muqam, saying that music and dance is against the religion of Islam, but in fact they are just using religion to discouraging the Khan from obsessing himself with his concubine's works of arts. So the way I understand it is this: music in itself is not sinful, but do not obsess oneself with it, just like drinking is within Christianity, where drinking is OK but don't over drink; ie do enjoy yourself with pleasures but do so with moderation.
Lovely to get a comment from a Chinese person. Funnily enough i understood islam only after studying Daism/confucianism..regarding music esp this line from the tao te hing:The five colours blind the eye. The five tones deafen the ear. The five flavours dull the taste....In islam as in all relgions the ideal is to move beyond the sensual impulses and passions( both good and bad) into the tao/tawhid..The quran is a form of muscial scale that is outside of the realm of haw(a caprice/wind) that can help you to align your soul with the universal rhythm.. there is a musical harmony that is far beyond an earthly music that is heard with an extra sensory part of the human being, often refered to as the music of the spheres in classical western esotericism..this is music which is heard with the whole self...not just ears ..cs lewis described it quite well in one of his novels...perelandra i think. The taboo against music in islam is to ensure that music doesnt go too far in the wrong direction, which it clearly has in modern society..confucius was saying the music of his time was already degenerate and that was 2500 year ago..by the time the prophet muhammed(pbuh) appeared it would make sense that he would warn against the dangers of music.
@@As-fs6qd That is an interesting comparison. I agree that there are some unhealthy music in the world. It is like junk food. We need to distinguish between junk food and good food. Likewise, we have to distinguish between healthy music and unhealthy music.
Thank you so much for putting yourself in danger, risking your life to play music and sing in these very very secret locations! (for real tho, awesome video. Loved the sass, loved the music even more💜)
the last chapter perfectly summed up my view of modern islamic discourse which i havent been able to properly articulate for years. Thanks bossman
As a left wing political radical, I cannot thank you enough for that final segment on the politics of progressive Islam. I grew up as an Orthodox Serb in a majority Muslim area of Serbia, and my relationship to Islam has always been extremely complicated. It existed within a multidirectional dichotomy of my daily life next to Muslims in all of their human complexity and local cultural particularities, my nation's past of Ottoman servitude, the 90s war, our support for many Muslim countries in the face of Western meddling... it could feel like I was being pulled apart mentally at times. As I grew in knowledge of many fields of social science and discovered Marxism, I slowly reconciled many of these contradictions the best I could, understanding the particular form of Orientalism that was the bedrock of my past confusion and dismantling it bit by bit. But eventually, being a Marxist in the communication age, I came in contact with Western progressive Muslims. I still consider them comrades and recognize their worldviews in many aspects, but the amount of downright insulting idealization I've had to listen to from them is insane. First they'd be "on my side" in a debate with some right winger, explaining to them that the Ottoman Empire wasn't Mordor on Earth and how laughably simplistic and innacurate their vision of it was. Then they'd go ahead and say it was actually a beacon of progressive valued for its time, and when I told them "well, actually, they still kidnapped children and s3xu4lly enslaved women, all the way into the early 20th century, here's how I know", BAM, all of a sudden I was just yet another white Islamophobe propping up evil Western propaganda with no basis in reality. Islam has progressive currents worked into the very fabric of the religion, as all religions do, and it's good to recognize them, but not at the cost of whitewashing the aspects which are downright irreconcilable with modern progressive values, and that's not even getting into the fact that Islamic people and states are capable of engaging in bad behavior for REASONS OTHER THAN BEING MUSLIMS (ie. many of the more brutal aspects of the Ottoman Empire - the "empire" bit is what matters there). I honestly think that the existence of modern Western progressive Islam is a consequence of it being *Western*. Modern Western political narratives largely depend on the creation of these molds to put cultures in which would differentiate them from the West in order to justify having a particular relation to them. For right wingers, the Islamic world is Mordor. For progressive Western Muslims, it is Gondor. Neither of them go outside the paradigm, because to do so would challenge the ideology of Othering they've been inundated with since birth. In all of this cultural and ideological chaos, the true, full humanity of Islam and Muslims is fully lost. To deny someone not merely the capacity to be either good or bad, but to be both, is to dehumanize them.
Sorry for the long comment, and I'm aware I might not have been perfectly clear. Thanks for the video, it really spoke to me.
Couldn't agree more. The Ottoman Empire bit particularly speaks to me.
I did a degree in historical studies here in Canada, and one day the entirely white, western body of students began having a discussion about the history of victimisation of Muslims. None of the events they pointed to were wrong; the expulsion of Muslims from Iberia, the massacres of the Muslims of the Peleponese during the Greek Revolution, etc. But they were cherrypicking in such a slanted way that made it look like the Muslims were the ultimate oppressed downtrod people of humanity; an incredibly popular narrative within radical leftism where the very real struggles of Muslim minorities in the West are extrapolated worldwide, and radical leftists oft forget that they're the dominant, utterly hegemonic group in their own part of the world.
I spoke up for nuance, and reminded them that, in the history of the Balkans, Muslims for over 600 years were the ones to exert authority (and therefore at times oppress) over other groups.
The entirely white group turned insanely defensive and accused me of Islamophobia. When I pointed out the historical reality of those claims, they began going "what about the Crusaders killing Muslims," (which yeah, I recognise too obviously, I have an entire song about it on my channel) and some went as far as claiming history was falsified, and the kidnapping of Christian kids in the Balkans to become Janissaries and eunuchs was falsified Balkan propaganda.
We were doing an academic history degree, and some in the group were literally advocating for conspiracy theory and historical denialism. That's how intense the fanatical defensiveness of so called wokes can get with Islam. The right-wing dehumanisation and racism is wrong but this isn't the solution either. And some of those left-wingers are genuinely psychotic about it.
We regularly have arguments about weather or not music is haram but at the end of the day we all go back to our phones and start listening to music.
All food was halal to the children of Israel save what Israel made haram upon himself before the Torah was sent down. Say thou: “Bring the Torah and recite it, if you be truthful.”
(3:93)
@@snibo1024 no i dont because the evidence is clear that its not permissible
Hypocrites.
@@tweed0929 lol you can believe something to be sinful and still do it. hypocrisy is saying you yourself don’t do something and then do it. 38:18 is a great example
Speak for yourself. A lot of Muslims still abstain from music. In fact even in a place like the UK, a land of music and Kufr, the majority of Muslims I know don’t listen to music - and I am in a position where I regularly interact with a range of different muslims
Excellent video as always, and I have to say as a Muslim it's quite nuanced and balanced.
One thing I want to mention as someone who lives in the Middle East, specifically in the gulf area, is that we do have music classes at school. Hell, even in university, there's a music major in my college and we have lots of artists and musicians who make music about many things including love but it's not heavily explicit or inappropriate atleast to my knowledge. (I mostly listen to "old timey" or traditional music but occasionally listen to popular music)
These videos essays are genuinely so interesting. I am a christian but i always love learning about other religions and cultures, and i think its so important to debunk false informations about religions
Good job at tackling such a complex, often misrepresented topic. During my ethnomusicology master's I took a module called "Ethnicity, religion and gender in Middle Eastern musical cultures", which was utterly fascinating, especially the grey areas of toleration, and touching on a lot you've managed to squeeze into 72 minutes, and more besides, e.g., famous Turkish trans singers like Bülent Ersoy and Selin Ciğerci. Also, when I studied Turkish ney, the first dozen pieces were ilahiler, so religious (granted, specifically Sufi) music before tackling any Ottoman classical music. The notion there would be absolutely no music is simply one I can't begin to understand, because someone somewhere would still find a way to make and distribute music; we have tons of examples of this after all (underground continuation, cassette culture, mobile phone music sharing, etc.).
I'll be honest, I don't know why would radical right wingers have a problem with Islamic view of homosexuality. I would expect this one at least to be a point of broad agreement, lol.
The sections of "the right" that harp on this particular point are usually libertarians and neocons, which are both groups that most far right people find extremely disagreeable, if not contemptable.
In general, conservative groups tend to follow a pattern of "as soon as something gets into our Overton window, foreign conservatives become evil for not approving it". There is nobody more enthusiastically feminist than a conservative complaining about patriarcal immigrants. Similarly, in my experience moderate conservatives have gone pretty quickly from "gay marriage is a slippery slope, we shouldn't allow it" to "fine, whatever, it's not my problem" to "easterners are evil for oppressing gays".
Thats because many "right-wingers" are just leftists seeing an issue with a religion that goes against their values.
Its the lefts crazy embracing of a misogynistic religion that made many people see themselves as not leftist anymore.
Its the lefts insane switch in morality "yeah christianity is bad, but this much worse religion is great" that drove sane people towards the right.
@@Olivman7 The irony of conservative groups is that, due to the racism embedded in their midst, they've pushed away Muslim minorities, the demographic probably most similar to them in terms of worldview. By all rights, the natural political alliance in the culture wars should have been between them.
It's Shakesperean in its irony
@@faryafaraji I'm also a conservative, but one influenced by the left on some issues. For example, while I like the 'Western Civilisation', I'm not a 'Defend the West' guy. I am opposed to this 'soft' racism that regards most non-western cultures as barbarian, the one that views the East as a monolith. While I'm not a Muslim and I am very critical towards some branches of Islam, I do think that I have a lot in common with more moderate Muslims, and I'll always side with a Muslim from the Middle East against a neocon.
This may be because I'm not sure if I myself am a westerner or not, because I'm Romanian. I see how it is for my culture to be presented in a stereotypical way, so I try not to do the same to others.
Dear Farya, your music talks are pure gold, as the music that you perform. Keep up the great work. Love from Serbia.
As a young “Western” Muslim who has been studying and talking to various people regarding Islam’s position on music, this video is very informative and nuanced. Also, what I finding lacking in the scholars that are online from whom we seek Islamic guidance is that they lack the sort of nuances you provided in this video. If they are from one school of thought, more often than not, they would just stick to what that madhab teaches without any clarification of what other schools teach. Hence, the varying positions on music found in Islam.
Not a single madahb (not even maliki) allows instruments.
Please do not conflate "instruments" with "music" as a subject.
@@enacausmembrane pls explain
Islam has forbade music if you're still wondering :)
@@enacausmembrane Can you please explain what comes out of an instrument when you play it.
@@Sustain_life Noise, noise comes out. Musical instruments are not allowed no matter which madhabh you look into, what is allowed is singing or music without the instruments
12:12 - I'm feeling Farya's grandfather's epic eyeroll/facepalm of disappointment in his music student.
This "brown man" comment is gold. I laughed so hard. It's quite informative too, I didn't know Jews are a "race" separate from Semites.
Bro was anti-Semitic to the fullest extent of the word - when it comes to hating on the Semites, he does not discriminate.
However, brown people applies to a lot more people than just the Semites and I feel this is a territory he has yet to explore.
@@someguy2744 I once perused a database of slurs in a fit of morbid curiosity. One thing I noticed is that you can describe any ethnicity of human with the formula "[topical noun] [n-word]". This reinforced to me that racists really only see people in two groups: like-me and not-like-me. To a white racist, it's just white people and different flavors of brown people.
The comment implies Semites isn’t separate from Jews, but gives it as an example. Racists love to use semites as meaning Jews and Muslims (specifically Arabs). But it’s extra ignorant and racist because homey here is Persian, not Arab. He’s literally Aryan.
Dude was just straight up openly racist. I’m shocked those people are still on RUclips.
@@someguy2744 Material for further studies, indeed
@ferretyluv Than I guess you must not have been around the internet the last decade. Everything got political lately and extremists from both sides aren't to hard to find on yt, watch a bit of history or about some game and yt will send you something political related to it, click this and next thing you know half your home page will be filled with political or ideological material that is supposed to engage you in watching more yt.
I think you may have missread this comment, or I did.
"[...] deceit common to Eastern races, Semites, Jews, etc." Looks form me like some kind of list that actually separates Jews from Semites and than he was out of ideas, maybe though he separated them as he doesn't know any other ethnic group east of him.
Again you bless us with a long Lenght video that I prefer to define as a documental, going from making music about Turkish culture, French, roman, norse, explaining the wrong concept of what is a viking and what is Scandinavian iron age music now this! Islamic culture, history and music
RUclips is too small for you, farja, I hope you get to reach higher levels, I'm not implying ted talks (would be nice tho) but mayb streaming! Or even making public lectures.
You sir are a moving, speaking, hearing and breathing library
Your last segment I fully agree with, even though it might've been outside the scope of the Music and Islam discussion. I would point out that Medieval Muslims did reinterpret verses that could very easily be read literally. The Quran for example, seems to accept a flat earth cosmology on a very literal reading, but some Medieval Muslims on being familiarized with Greek Natural Philosophy rejected such a reading, some fans of Aristotle would go as far as reinterpreting the very established timeline of Abrahamic thought to align with the idea that the universe was eternal and uncreated, etc. Reinterpreting Islam due to an external culture isn't necessarily new.
I agree fully, but I would add two additional nuances for anyone reading your comment:
• Whilst it's true that many verses that could be interpreted literally were interpreted allegorically, the relevant point of this segment is that the verses deemed "problematic" from a Western perspective traditionally weren't. It remains accurate to state, that across the normative reality of Islam, scholars did not approach verses regarding husband/wives relationships as esoterical allegories for environmentalism. The promulgation of this concept specific to *those verses* is the misinformation that I'm calling out. Some verses typically viewed as literal were indeed viewed as allegorical by some scholars, but not those condemning homosexuality or those upholding patriarchal norms for marriage, at least not to any significant extent.
• "Reinterpreting Islam due to an external culture isn't necessarily new." Most definitely, I agree with you here. However reinterpreting Islam to turn it compatible with Western progressivism is new. Progressive Islam isn't novel in its modification of Islam to fit another culture, but it is extremely novel for being the first to do so with Western progressivist values. Furthermore, whilst most of the cultures Islam was previously modified to fit were generally anthropologically contiguous with historical norms of pre-modern Eurasia and North Africa, it can be argued that progressive Islam of the West is to date, the most bold, extreme re-interpretation to occur, as Western post-enlightenment culture is (arguably) more radically different from Islam's traditional values than any of the other cultures it was previously modified to fit.
@@faryafaraji I don't know if you are familiar with the channel Red Star, by Dr. Taimur Rahman. He is a Pakistani political science professor (and a rock musician 😊). He has a very good ongoing series of lectures on the history of political Islam and the history of the schools of jurisprudence. He seems to see the decline of Mu'tazilism and the rise of the Hanbali school following the Mihna as a certain turning point in Islamic communities becoming more literal in their reading of the Qur'an. The Mu'tazilites believed that only Allah was uncreated and that the Qur'an was created, giving them a bit more philosophical and theological leeway in interpreting the scripture. An interesting fact is that the Islamic Golden Age and the translation movement coincide with the peak of the popularity of Mu'tazilism and a lot of the philosophers that were involved in the translation movement were apparently Mu'tazilites. It's an interesting perspective on history and I'm curious about your opinion. I'm Moldovan and atheist. My interest in the question is purely historical, anthropological and cultural.
@@faryafaraji Agreed one thing we muslims say that every word in the Quran has 2 meanings and should always be looked deeply
@@faryafarajiAgreed. Usually such forms of reinterpretation takes the forms of a social blend, such as Jews inducing Confucian elements while in China and Muslims in India conforming to the caste system. Progressive Islam seems to be an attempt to submit 'Islam' at the great altar of Western progressivism, and make sure it goes unscathed, and to assure the white liberal westerner (of some who already have a disposition to view non western cultures through the noble savage lens as benign and beautiful, bursting with ancient wisdom) this in turn does impact western Islam, but one could argue it also makes it formulaic and sheds any cultural originality, as everyone turns into the same progressive with their cultural worldview devolved into an 'aesthetic'
The Qur'an doesn't support flat-earth like the Bible, or hindu scriptures, Qur'an has no mention of earth's shape, buts it's says:-
1. NEITHER EARTH, NOR HEAVENS HAVE ANY PILLARS ie. Earth is not static ( 31;10)
2. THE EARTH'S MOUNTAINS ARE CONSTANTLY REVOLVING LIKE THE CLOUNDS IN THE SKY ie. Earth is revolving (27:88)
3. Hadith say that the person who shall steal land has to wear 7 earth's as a necklaces, earths is compared as a bead ie. Spherical. (Sahih Al Bukhari 3195)
4. Ultra orthodox, anti-philosophy theologans like Ibn taimiyyah believed in round earth (majmoo al fatwah 25/195)
jesus christ that second comment at 8:37 is just confidently using 'oriental' like that....the audacity. also i dont know if i was imagining it but it sounded like 'toxic' was playing in the background of those comment readings lmao
lmao first paragraph of his about the "races" is a pure example of projecting
Yeah no that guy is an actual Nazi, honetly baffling how confident these people are nowadays talking complete bullshit in public
Right? I was like, ‘Yeesh’ on the first and then that second…. Oy vey. They pit us against one another, then play the real card, the Mega-Double-Secret-Probation-Uno of Dumb But Armed and they’ve got the nukes and state capture and and tyrants reign and I gotta stop thinking about it; keep the faith, cousin. Farya will help us along 🤙
It was indeed toxic that was playing in the bg
Also casually throwing "this Brown man" is just 😳😳😳*huh?*
This is a wonderful video!
I love music and I am into history and religious studies, so this hits the right spots!
I am also a practicing Muslim and grew up with a tradition that saw music as permissible without much caveats. This was not the most popular position in religious circles, but the opinion was always there, and the general permissibility of music is becoming more popular these days. (Of course the history of this and how much it applies to every day life and how many people care about it is a different story as you already extensively explained in your video)
I believe the highest form of respect is presenting things with honesty, and the amount of research and detail you gave in presenting the complexity of the Islamic position is truly admirable and I can't ask for anything more. It is unfortunate that in the public sphere when it comes to Islam, we are often stuck between extreme demonization (and don't get me started when this attitude is mixed with a certain brand of nationalism, especially by some in the diaspora) or weird infantilization that reduces Islam into a progressive "vibe". Both dismiss the complexity and nuance of what's actually there and rely on deliberate misinformation. Regardless if we agree with everything in it or not, I think every tradition is at least owed the decency of taking it seriously and presenting it as is.
If I may add a couple of points (which are complimentary to what you have presented):
1- When it comes to jurisprudence, another layer of complexity is the topic of applying the rulings; if the textbook ruling is X is forbidden, there is still the question whether the thing you encountered in the real world is actually the same as X and whether the rule applies.
2- This is important because some rulings are understood to be contextual or conditional. This is the case in most non-ritualistic rulings. Sometimes something is forbidden, not for itself, but because of some perceived effect; so if the effect is not applicable, the ruling is not applicable. There is also the question of how a ruling can be applied in light of other rulings and the general goals and objectives of religion. (For example, even if you think something is obligatory, but enforcing it would lead to greater harm, then scholars generally say you should not enforce it)
3- So for example, the verse about wife obeying their husbands, most traditional scholars will contextualize it to be limited to things implied by the marriage contract; so it is not unlimited obedience, it is specific to certain things, and a lot can be negotiated and changed based on social norms. (This is still probably not the progressive ideal, but it is also more nuanced than just "woman. obey" and shows how things can be negotiated and changed even with scripture)
4- Of course all this talk is within the realm of textbook laws, but even for practicing religious Muslims, this is not the end of the story. Muslims still hold complex system of ethics beyond the legal aspect. (For this point specifically Dr. Marion Katz's book and academic lectures are recommended)
Great video defying stereotypes
I would seriously love to see you doing a documentary or something on Spanish Music in Latin America. It would be so cool. But that's different of course from the subject of your video.
Brother, wdym "Spanish Music"? Are you talking about how people in Latin America have tunas (musical group) in their universities (as do the universities of Spain) and can learn Flamenco if they so choose, or are you referring literally any music made by Latin Americans? Because if it's the latter, that would just be Latin American music, Spanish music is *specific to Spain.*
Thanks farya faraji to You talk about this As a Muslim i like your music and i I have been looking for an answer to this question for a long time and There is no definitive answer to this question
Thank you farya faraji
I love the wholesomeness of you singing along with the store owner that mevlevi song I've listened to ad nauseum already, lol.
Always amazing to watch your videos!
Even us who know a lot of information on the topic, we enjoy watching the information be presented in a very cool setting, and at the same time, see the others learn!
It's one thing to learn from a book, another to watch a well-presented video, just like people who read books, would love to watch a movie based on the book!
If he is that kind of religious person, why is he following you on any platform in the first place?
Always love when you give us a glimpse of your grandfather. And even though you don’t belong to my faith (or any as you stated), may you live a long life and make his memory be eternal.
(There, Farya, finally made a comment and congratulations on 300k+).
Edit: those taverns in Constantinople (Eis tin Polin) were as those taverns in Elounda that you wrote a symphony on. ;) (Couldn’t resist stating the facts, as you also stated.)
10:01 im so glad james bond was there to help you find the hidden orient in a turkish music shop 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻 where would we be without the anglosphere cultural preservation
Lol
Salafis and Wahhabis taking enormous massive L's rn
As usual.
They're all from the Saud school of teaching so..
Of course they should take an L , absolute hate towards the saudi family lol
The fuks u expect from them😂😂😂😅
Like always lol
I don't think many of the Saudi clerics/scholars would dare touch the subject matter of Khashoggi and freedom of press in Saudi Arabia - they would be jailed or out of a job very quickly for introducing fasad (turmoil) in the kingdom.
Alhamdhulillah I am a Muslim and there are many opinions in Islam we are diverse we aren’t monolith For us Sufi naqshbandi music can be a way of getting close to him or farther away
ngl im a devout muslim and i agree with pretty much everything you covered thank you for clearing this up i might even use your video as reference in the future
great video btw can't wait for your next upload
i loved the sarcasm sm 😭 great video as always
This is incredibly insightful, great video once again. I am not Muslim I simply enjoy a lot of music from MENA and from artists in the diaspora who are mostly Muslim. I'm not an expert on this topic either, clearly -- but I am of a minority religion where I live also and it is very frustrating getting the same questions all the time, based on misconceptions, that also have nuanced answers, and I need to answer in a way that reflects that but doesn't invalidate anybody's beliefs/traditions. 😭 To anyone reading this, whatever you believe, genuinely I hope it is fulfilling for you and helps guide you to do good, instead of it being a tool of oppression onto you or others. When the case is the former, there's nothing to argue with.
Hi Farya :) I just wanted to thank you as a musicologist candidate (doing my master degree on musicology) in Germany and coming from Turkey, you just speak all my feelings when i have to deal with “Questions”. I feel so understood and not alone because of your content 🙏🏻
Your video explanations are some of the best in-depth informational videos on youtube, imo! They're very engaging, clear, well-argued and nuanced. And most of all: they leave me knowing something actually new and useful in my approaches in daily and social life, and peaking my interest to actually get to know more about (in this case Islamic) cultures and how to engage with them. Keep up the good work!
It really doesn't make sense to me when people think that there is no music in the Islamic world DUE TO Islam. Whereas many pieces of music do exist BECAUSE of Islam. In my home country Pakistan for example, songs related to praising the prophet are widespread. Tu Kuja Man Kuja for example is one of the most famous songs of praise
Do not forget famous song and style from mughal era
Because its more Sufi (contemplative experientialism) and not Literalist
As an Indian, I am floored by the incredible contributions from Moghuls to art, architecture, poetry and music. And then I feel disheartened to see the far-right Hindutva trying to erase all of this complex culture.
Saying there are no Muslim musicians is like saying there are no Christians that wear clothing woven of more than one type of cloth. Wild that people that consider themselves "enlightened" for being born in a "secular" society (a lot of "secular" states are a lot more entwined with their founding religious theologies in their ideological construction and material and legal operation than people like to admit) STILL don't understand that religions have different interpretations.
And thank you for laying things out clearly that revolutionary progressive interpretations are just that, revolutionary attempts to bring ancient practices into a new standard. As something of a vile, heretical Neo-shinto-hindi-agnostic-aetheist-theocratic-post-modernist-true-believer when it comes to theological concerns myself, I think it's best if we all just be honest about the history and circumstance of the literature, it's evolution and what we want to make of it in the future.
Valid point but there was no need to spit on secular states. It is a needed transition to modernism, we must abandon all spiritual chains to let the trechnoligarchy reignd
One thing you hint at in the last section but don't explicitly lay out is that, while progressive Christians can always use the escape hatch of "everything in the Old Testament is approximative and a product of its time, the New Testament is the real deal and Jesus's teachings are the word of God" and filter out most of the bigoted messages of the Bible (and filter out Genesis and other archeologically disproved stuff), Islam's "the Quran is the word of Allah, no second editions" principle means that Muslim progressives are in a much tougher bind reconciling their religion with their values.
Indeed. Also there is no separation of religion and state. Islam is all-encompassing by default.
@@igorjee as I understood Islam actually has a certain division, but it's not quite what we would call secularism. The channel Red Star has a good number of lectures on the political history of Islam. The channel is by a Marxist professor from Pakistan. Very good educational content.
@@igorjeeThe Lutheran state churches in early modern period Europe were sometimes brutal organs of suppression.
The Lutheran state church was a partnership between faith and crown. A church to service the national need, with a granted monopoly to do so and the enforcement powers of the crown backing it.
@@igorjeeThe general principle before and following the wars of religion is that the sovereign has freedom of religion. The national religion (of freedom thereof or exceptions from it in some cases) is what the sovereign wills it to be.
Progressivism, Liberalism, Communism etc, are mutations of Protestant Christianity. Obviously Islam will have a harder time conforming to the final stage of a culture that's foreign to it. Muslims will be able to, the islamic world will always have that tension.
The first thing I did in Istanbul was visit a music shop and bought like 10 albums of traditional music. My wife was afraid for my life as the activity was clearly illegal, especially for an American.
@@ArdaUnhail I saw a guy in the middle of Istanbul. He was being execut3d for playing music in public. As his lifeless body lurched forward, his baglama fell out of his hands and rolled down the pavement next to a stream of his bl00d. The tourists we appalled but also seemingly entranced by the view of such a barbaric scene from a bygone age.
@@igorjee people think the Istanbul cats are just there, but their main function is eating people alive as punishment for the big müzik haram
@@faryafaraji Oh, I didn't know that. I did see a sudden congregation of cats at the site though. Büyük müzik haram or not, the streets of Istanbul are truly woven with enchanting stories. And facts like these make them even more intriguing.
@@faryafaraji i can confirm , i saw a white man listen to the Beatles walking down the street and the Cats formed a firing squad 😢
@faryafaraji that explains their eternal presence, but they will not desuade me.
Seriously, I love your work, man! Discovered your channel shortly after my visit to Türkiye in 2021. Keep up the good work!
Hello Farya, i'm from Iraq and big fan of your work and enjoy your channel!
Hello amba74 who identities as a cat me too 😂
its also just super reductive and erasure of the vast religious diversity of the region. West Asia is home to many different faiths, and the idea of the monolithic "Islam" is simply false. We have Christians (Orthodox and Catholic) Muslims (Sunni and Shia) Alawites Druze etc
Another wonderful lesson from Mullah Faraji from the House of Wisdom in Baghdad
Hello, my dear Faria!
I hope you are always healthy and cheerful so that you can continue to make these fascinating videos!
I am a Shia Muslim from Iran. And in my opinion, your video was nothing more than "an hour of truth telling". It is foolish to think that Islam and its ideas have always been the same everywhere and I really enjoyed watching your wise words! Although I am by no means an intellectual or revolutionary in Islam, most of those around me consider me a radical. But I have accepted that I cannot be a good Muslim without accepting the facts and knowing the truth of what I believe. Those who close their eyes and worship God without knowing why, even according to the Quran, have a lesser reward than those who do so with reason and will...
Anyway, thank you for speaking so intelligently and logically, and I look forward to your videos and songs in the future!
Durud be kulle shiayan e ahle bait dar iranzamin
in the inevitability of sin part, I am a muslim, and I live in a muslim country and grew up in a islamic school(not regular type of school) we are constantly being reminded we as a muslim has to consistently ask for forgiveness because we are not perfect and will cause sin doesn't matter if we know we did a sin or not.
I grew up in Sudan (a very Muslim Theocracy). There was absolutely music there. We'd go out at night and play music after our work was done. The MOSQUES would do prayer call with singing. This is a wonderful video, and did a wonderful representation of the subject, and as someone who grew up in heavy Islamic Culture (I am non-religious now) I feel you did a good job representing the subject from a religious perspective.
That said...
My brother is a Christian. My brother has gout. My brother is a glutton. This means my brother is a sinner. How is this possible if my brother is a Christian?! 🤣 (I kid, I kid)
There is a bunch of nastier little sects who embrace success theology. The divine will give you literal material benefits, and if these do not manifest you did not believe hard enough. This is usually the realm of fringe, harmful cults.
I didn't even know, I learn so much from your channel, thank you for these talking videos, always refreshing!
As a Muslim of Persian origin as well, I love your pieces especially "The Janissary" and "Pirates of the Mediterranean". May Allah guide you and enlighten your life as you have played a part in enlightening ours.
Another amazing video! It's mindblowing to me that some people really believe that middle eastern music doesn't exist/isn't accessible. All they have to do is a quick Google search and so many will pop up!
There is this inside joke/stereotype in South Asia, that if there is any metal/grunge/punk music band, its likely a muslim band. Sufi rock is apparently a genre
Sufi rock is unfathomably based.
azizam, wake up!! farya's new epic talking just dropped!!
I freaking LOVE Khaliji music, and of course all the other examples you demonstrated at the very beginning.
I like it, too. To my American ears, the tempo often throws me off at the beginning, mainly because I’m so used to hearing 4-8 tempo sets, but once you get the Khaliji beat, it sounds so fun to dance to.
As someone who himself is addicted to dissecting everything, its fun to see someone else do the same, regardless of the topic in discussion.
It'd be nice if you did more.
@AbdulRehman-tl1vi Condolences for the rats around your house
Love the mix of well done explanations, presentation of information and humor. I've learned so much from your videos, and I'm glad you're sharing all of this with us.
Man, am vietnamese and your video on music are so interesting.
I love how you went from historical music to also making documentary-length analyses of culture and history
Ethnomusicologist. Educator in theology. Linguist. Perso-Canadian Cowboy. Cat Enthusiast. Amazing Musician. You wear many hats, @faryafaraji, but I’ve only the one to tip to you in reverence. Keep shining your light, homie.
Thank you for investing so much time to impart knowledge and perspective with excellent thoroughness. Honestly this should be taught in schools.
I know some Muslims who shun music (along with dancing and other things). Not all of them but a few that I know. It's their right to have that belief but I think it's a bit sad to think the entire musical traditions of your culture are sinful. What really upsets me is when people start imposing that belief on others like on Afghanistan and banning everyone from listening to music. It's erasing so much cultural heritage.
This is by far the best and most comprehensive on the subject
I don't know how Muslims in other countries are, but we Turks have a special importance in music.
In the Turkish-Islamic civilization, the Anatolian Seljuk Period and the Ottoman Empire, they believed that music was healing, and various music was played to people who were sick,
There is an event called "Dhikr"(Zikir) , in which we remember Allah and repeat the names of Allah through Islamic music.
I don't know if Alevis (Anatolian Alevis) are considered Muslims, but music has an important place in them as well.
(I hope I wrote what I wanted to say correctly, My English is not good)
In the logic of Islam, if someone worships the one God of Islam, regardless of whether they follow the first three caliphs or not, they are a Muslim brother (abi) , get educated ❤
Biz Türk ve Türkler sayesinde İslam'la tanışmış Balkan Müslümanları ile öbür Müslüman ülkelerdeki Müslümanlar arasında dağlar kadar fark var. Özellikle Güney Asya Müslümanları çok aşırı ve mantıksız derecede tutucular. Ben bunu anladım.
Thank you for all your work, lately it keeps me so much all together, and i am learning so much. Btw Varanian Saga is on repeat. Greetings from Denmark.
37:17 This part is sooo true and soooo funny! Holy shit, YES, the fact of you believing in teachings of a Religion doesn't stop you from being a human, Jesus Christ!
I only just last year found out that there was debate about music in Islam when I read on the history of bells around the world. I can’t believe I didn’t know for so long! Of course it makes sense with the way that images have been debated in religion across history, so would music. I’m very excited to watch this video, thanks so much for sharing your knowledge about music and culture and history!
Lovely video, opened my mind about the "legality" (or "morality"?) of music in Islam.
Last section was really fun to watch 😄
I'm born and raised in Portugal, the whole peninsula was bathed in, along others, muslim influences in science and culture. This is still obvious today. Though we do have social problems, biases and misconceptions that you'd sadly expect, I don't find any relating to music. If anything, anyone who knows a bit about the history of portuguese music, knows about it's arabic/muslim influences. I was unaware of this large scale idea of music being prohibited, and many other things you brought up. Thanks for the video, and all the literature attached.
This man's frustrations are the funniest skits i've ever watched. Keep it up brother.. beautiful video
Subbed. Informative, straight to the point, and funny as heck 🗣️