Fantastic video thank you very much so much information. I'm a 61 year old retired Marine a little beat up from the years of service. But you really give me motivation. I recently picked up a painfully bone stock 1977 F-150 4x4 4 spd with a 351 modified engine. I seem to have a knack for finding out of the norm vehicles. Thanks for all the great inside and info on this 351m engine. FYI 1977 F150 has never been restored. Been sitting for almost 16 years. It's a short bed Farmtruck but it has full trim and a vinyl roof. I love the patina on it can't wait get it running. First time viewer I will definitely be back.
Thank You! Very Interesting! It's been years since building any engines and just getting back into it for a pickup I'm doing. Just went and looked at a junkyard 351W to replace my 302 ho efi roller. This answered several questins I had before I buy the other engine. Greta Job! I look forward to more of your videos. Daryl
My dad put a 400 in a 1980 F250 camper special , this was in the early 80's and not much aftermarket support for these engines. The block was a 30 over stock rebuild with factory 8:1 pistons and open chamber heads (2v) .The heads and intake were milled to slightly bump up compression, it had a Isky RV hydraulic cam and Crane adjustable pushrods, recurved stock distributor, Edelbrock SP 2P intake ,625 com Carter AFB carb, Eagle long tube headers into a true dual side exit exhaust ( Midas turbo mufflers) plus the C6 automatic had a mild shift kit with 3.73 : 1 gears blah blah blah. With this humble combination this was one stealthy pick up, it could blow the doors off most other vehicles especially on big hills ( thank goodness in had 2 fuel tanks). I can just imagine what you could do with one of these engines today (aluminium heads better pistons ,roller cams ,roller rockers, EFI better exhaust technology, transmissions etc..) So to make a long story short: Build a 400 and be different plus they are quite good looking especially when dressed up!
I enjoy your videos. No need to over complicating the 351-M. Simply put the 351-M is a de-stroked 400 (4" bore 4" stroke) big brother of the 351-C which was created just after the 1969 introduction of the 351W. More 351 engines were needed than could be produced at the Ford Windsor plant so production began at the Ford Cleveland plant while at the same time improving the design of the 351W thus creating the 335 engine series the 351-C and 400 (which replaced the FE 390). Then around 1975 because 351-C engine had ceased production (but not on the 400) and more 351's were needed the 400 was de-stroked to create a 351 designated M. As you have pointed out different from the 351-C because the 400 had taller deck height, larger 3" mains and different engine mounts etc. (there were 400's with both the small and large bolt patterns referred to as FMX blocks made in the early 70's). Looking at the 351M as a 400 makes it much easier to understand and compare to other engines...at least I think so...hope this helps.
So you can get more outta a 351M than a Cleveland? I bought a 71 mustang off family and instead of a 351C under the hood like the vin says I found a 351M. I guess my uncle blew the original. I’m trying to figure out if it’s worth looking around for another 351c or saying screw it and going for a restomod.
I've had all of the engines you mentioned at one time or the other and worked on many of them as a Ford dealership technician,but my favorite has to be the 351 Cleveland. Those were some great engines to me. I've had 302s,390s,360s etc etc. But my 351 Cleveland impressed me the most.
351C had the best set of factory heads. 351M is a smog control, low-compression boat anchor. I've worked on them all myself and my favorite is still the 289.
@@josephtravers777 very true. In my opinion, the only thing to do with a 351m is to pull it out and turn it into a 400 with better heads and intake, or rip it AND the transmission out and put in a 351W and a C4
Lets simplify. 351s all have 4" bore and 3.5 stroke. And the same bore spacing and head bolt spacing. 289, 302W are aprox 8.2 deck. 351W 351 C are about 9.2" and the M engine is 10.2. 351 C and M heads all interchange. But start at under 60cc for Aussie 302C and up to 78cc for 400. All 2Vs use the same valves and they are all that is required. Big valves like a 4V have no airspeed. 302W is tiny, 5.150 for 289 and 5.090 for 302s and deck, Clevos and 351W are an inch taller and the M is an inch taller again. 302C has 6.030 rods, 351C have 5.780 rods 351 and 400M have 6.580 rods. 351W all alone with just under 6" . 351W, 351 and 400M all have 3" mains which really are too big as the larger the dia the more it heats the oil and the bearing. Just ok on a low RPM slugger. The C engine is better but still bigger than the industry standard of a Chev at 2.5". 302W is around that as well. The 289/302 engines are a tiny little thing and go well for what they are BUT really the crankcase is too small. Putting a 3.4 [347] crank in them,, grind pan rails, dent the pan etc to clear the throws and rods. Never really a good idea, even 3.25 is a not great deal better. But does produce a bit more useable torque. The Windsor though does have far better oiling than its larger capacity and bigger block brothers. Ford do make 351 blocks with Clevo main size or 302s with 2" rod journals as well. Just 50 years late! While the ooh aaah with Boss 302s they were actually a dog of a thing to drive. tiny little engine with huge ports,, yup a no bottom end thing that you have to rev hard to make go. Makes a 302Chev so much better and they were no great shakes in street driveability and especially with the best Z28 heads. A 351 Boss style thing has a couple of advantages but the 3" mains do not. So a 351C with 6" rods and a good deal of attention to the oiling is a bit better. People have raced 302C as well. 2V 302 Aussie heads and not a bad thing for under 5 litre racing, but otherwise that capacity is a waste of time. Those heads though are far better than 4Vs up to around 6000rpm. And even then really are too big in the ports. They are bigger than a raceport on a Chev. The canted valve looks impressive but in the real world not so much. 3Vs from Victoria are considerably better but not that cheap! Actually compare a big block Chev head with a Clevo head or even a 429 head! And with all of these engines and not just Fords be very carefull of what component manufacturers make these days. My 400M cruiser engine with the new FM /Speedpro pistons that started with 9.1-1 would have had about 7.5-1 with the new pistons supplied as well as Felpro /050 thick head gaskets compared with the OEM 34 thou. and been a gutless thirsty polluting pig. I used Aussie 302 heads 60CC and have the original 9,1-1 but even then a lousy combo as the pistons down the hole is not efficient or very clean either. But it is a 2 ton tank so does not matter a great deal. It was far sharper with the 78CC heads cut .050 giving about 9.8-1. And cleaner as well! Manufactures should be shot with what they do for unleaded fuel. Especially as for a cruiser most people dont mind buying premium unleaded anyway. Then use a Multispark ignition and it will be near as efficient as a leaded engine and last longer as well.
I love where you explain the issues of having an aluminum timing cover on an iron Ford 302. I literally had my timing cover bust a lead at the exact point where you pointed to at the 12:00 minute mark on my Lincoln Mark VII with a 5.0. Between work and the family, I just finished up installing a new timing gear-set, timing cover with seal, balancer, water pump, thermostat, thermostat housing, silicone hoses, and radiator. To say the aluminum timing covers leak alot is an understatement. Love the Vids. 0.020"
I found this post very useful I have an engine, transmission, and rolling frame from a 1-ton Ford I'm trying to identify so I can get parts. Nothing else is giving me this much information. Thank you.
I also need your advice on a conversion I'm asked to do for a customer's 79 Mustang V6 2.8 to a V8 289ci C4 lying in my shop. I know one major difference is that I'll need a rear sump kit for the conversion. Hope to hear from you. Cheers
really should be calling it a 351m/400 block because they are exactly the same and some may want to know by simple using the 400 crank and 400 pistons you now have 400 cid motor they both use the same rods and everything interchanges.....also if i remember correctly all 351m/400 blocks are cast for excepting the 4 bolt main caps ..also you should know the 351m/400 crank main bearing are the same as the 351w and you can custom cut a 351m/400 crank allowing it to fit in a 351w block creating a stroke kit with all bone stock ford parts making your 351w a 413cid ford windser block if punched 30 over
Just an observation about the 351m engine mounting pads you talked about (center punch, drill and tap) to use the two bolt 351c type mount. It you look at the drivers side of the block in your video, It only has one (the front) of those bosses present. You even touched the spot where the boss is missing in the center location on the drivers side of the block three times. It could turn into a bummer for someone thinking they have the option of using the two bolt mount and find out that other boss is missing. That's the way it looks to me. Your videos bring back my days in the 70ies and 80ies when I built rep AC Cobra's with everything from 302's to side oiler 427's. We even had a SOHC 427 at one time. Talk about a monster engine. All the best from Scottsdale.
I have had a number of these engines and have found that the 351M and 351C had oiling problems with the crank but have not had the same problem with the 351W
the 351 m started replacing the Fe 360 in pickup trucks they work pretty good if you use the oil pressure gauge as a tachometer and driving like that keep them revved up and pumping oil everybody was lugging them and the bearings didn't last when you love them 351m low oil pressure really drops
the 351m/400 crank journals are the same as a 351w should try building a clevor by grinding a 400 crank counter weights then re-balance allowing you to get 4" stroke in a 351w block
You talked about liquid corrosion. In '81 my dad's 78 Chevy C10, lost a water pump. We added Prestone water pump lube. In '03 I rebuilt engine. To my surprise the steel head gaskets looked new! That was at 330,000+ miles. I just copper coated and reused them. Vintage '78 steel head gaskets and coolant hoses to this day. Take care from Oklahoma Mike and Vee
Those old Chevy shim head gaskets are better than most realise. Use a composite gasket and you lose compression and they seem to fail quicker. I have used them as a single gasket, stacked to get valve clearance even used them with alloy heads. Though not so good there as the alloy is ofcourse softer. And never seen one blown. Leak a bit, yes, with heavily milled heads.
We built a 400 with Boss 302 heads and made spacers for the 351 C INTAKE After we modified the heads to work on that block .This was back in the 1970's because we couldn't get a 400 crank inyto a 351 C block and we had the heads fron another job . It worked well in a 1871 Mach 1 . .
Great video man, that engine is clean what did you use to get it all cleaned up? I found an old 351m and c6 tranny in my dads garage when he died in working on rebuilding it now only to find out it ain't stock. Crank has been ground 20 under and the cylinders have been bored 30 over it's a learning experience just trying to figure everything out. I with I knew who he got this motor from lol
Thank you for the excellent videos! Would love to see ya do a Ford 400 build video because, well because 400s have a lot of potential, and because I own one and will soon be rebuilding it (I've already rebuilt the chassis and purchased a excellent rust free cab and bed for it, so I am well into it. It is a 1980 F350 4X4 I purchase from a 95 year retired rancher and WWII vet. When I bought it two years ago, he told me the house there where he lived, and adjacent barnyard where the truck was parked, was where he picked his wife up for their high school prom date! She also is still alive and doing well. I told him that if I could get the truck running (it had sat for 3 years), and if it would make it up the big hill by his house, I would buy it, and it made it up the hill. Lol. I also own two 1963 fords, a f100 and a f600 that I am doing extensive work on, both have y blocks, and a 1990 F250 driver with 7.3 idi, and a B600 church bus that I have done a fair amount of work to. Guess I'm just an old Ford truck nut. Anyway, you've videos are excellent. Thank you!
Very cool I do have a 400 build waiting in the wings but it's gona be a while I also love Ford trucks I am a really big fan of the FE engines mostly the 390 and 428
great videos. my questiin......is the Cleveland block (other than the two different deck heights) similar to the modified block with the Windsor transmission bellhousing pattern and two bolt motor mounts?
I have a 351M in my 78 Ranchero. The only engine mods I have done are headers, 4bbl intake with a Holly 600, MSD Distributor and MSD electronic ignition. I have new Edelbrock Aluminum heads, a Comp Cam (Mother Thumpr) and Scorpion roller rockers to install but have never worked this deep into an engine before. Your promised video would be very helpful - when do you think it will come out?
It is on the list and will be coming soon but as you probably know engine building is time consuming and documenting it on video takes much longer but it will happen remember some of these builds are filmed several months before they are edited and posted
Timing chain cover at 11:32 . oldsmobile baby lol. Im so addicted to your channel, at this point you could be building Renault motors and I still would be watching
Cool I had a 79 bronco with a 400 in it dropped a valve and got me home I repaired it and kept drive years more! great engine!... Also had a 351 Cleveland in a 71 galaxie great engine the transmission bolt pattern is a dead giveaway between the Cleveland and the 351m/400... 351c small pattern. 351m/400 big pattern. Easy to spot at the junyard!
I am late to the party here, and great vid! But, if I may correct you, the FE and Y-blocks were two different engine families. 292, 312, etc were Y-blocks, and the FE started out as a 352, 360, 390, 428, etc. The M gets a bad wrap, but they were pretty stout motors. Not power houses by any means, but durable! Although I have heard some having issues with the block shifting in the valley, causing cracks between the lifter bores. Great comparison, to show the difference in mass compared to the SBF!
The FE engines are actually devided into two different types, the car engine FE and the truck engine FT and they're almost the same but there are a few important differences
If a person were to build a car would they want to go with a 351W or a 351M... I've got a stock 351M from 1977 as well but my 1970 cougar came with the 351W, fitting isnt a problem but modifying it to be a nice little runner what would you say?
So on the 351M if there is water and oil mixing it will not be from a bad intake gasket? I purchased a 351M f100 and the motor was supposedly rebuilt but i have the dreaded milkshake. I have no experience with 351M motors so i was thinking maybe it was a crappy intake gasket but if there are no water ports then im assuming that wouldnt be the case. Correct?
Thanks for the video very interseting,let me ask you i have a 74 bronco with 80,000 original miles and have yet to really do anything with it but the motor seems pretty strong now if you wanted more horsepower would i be better off putting the money into this motor such as efi,headers,new intake,new heads,etc... or would you have this motor rebuilt and then add those items or would you put the money into a new crate motor? I am not sure which way to go i want it to be a good daily driver but also want it to be very offroad capable,any help or insight would be very much appreciated!
this 302 came out of a ltaer model mustang. All I know as of now. Bought it through a friend who is selling everything he owns. It can work but, is the best choice for a 66 Bronco, that I am not interrested in a Coyote 5.0. In other words would a 351 Windsor be a much better choice? Also are there complete conversion parts for sale as they are for the earlier engnes. This engine must be much different from the 302 that was a Bronco engine in 69. I'm trying to learn knowing nothing much about engines, torque, etc.
I think you can use the 400 crank and rods to make the 351M into a 400. those are really decent engines to work with that sadly the aftermarket forgot about. the Horsepower Monster channel built a 400 with Cleveland heads and other little tricks,all naturally aspirated and got over 500 HP and very high torque numbers with a flat as Kansas torque curve. love to take a engine like that and build a Starsky and Hutch replica of a 74-76 2 door Torino with! that is me though!
it is the crank and pistons to convert to a 400cid both have the same rods ....the 351 uses a 3.5" stroke crank and pistons with a relocated wrist pin to make the 351cid
My dad at a modified in a 76 LTD man that thing ran good and lasted years we could take it cross country and never have no problems out of it he rebuilt it when we first got the car and lasted 12 years till he got rid of it and the guy ran it for years after that till he sold it. I’m not a Ford guy but they built some awesome engines the modifieds don’t get enough love and there really a factor stroker engine.
3 years later I'm watching your videos..I just bought a 1977 ford truck with a 351 m..that is Simi locked up...so I have to rebuild or see if I want to modify the engine
I had to replace head gasket 5.4 Triton. Had head pressure tested. And check for straight nest. put new time in chains. now I have a rest pin knock. any thought to what I might have done wrong.
My son bought a Ford farm truck with a 351 modified, it only has 55000 miles but number 4 cylinder seems to have a burnt valve, is this a common problem? The plug has spark but it's oily and it's definitely no. 4 that either has no compression or something because the engine runs the same with or without spark on that cylinder.
Australia produced 351 Cleveland for quite a number of years which have thicker blocks then they also did something very strange they made a 302 Cleveland, same size block different size conrods Actually longer. So a very popular build many years ago was 2 use the 302 con rods on the 351 crank with shorter pistons and presto a lot of power
@@dexter2433 it wasn't emissions. It was because Ford sold the rights to make the Cleveland Heads to a company Down Under. I wish i could remember the companies name but it escapes me at the moment.
Better yet is a Boss 351 build which requires a 4 bolt Cleveland block, Cleveland 4 bbl. heads, mechanical cam (etc.), aluminum intake and a big carb...unknown to most Ford fans is that the '71 Boss 351 held the quickest 1/4 mile time of any production ford back in the muscle car era and was only bettered with some of the more recent pony cars. I owned a '70 Mach I with a 351C 4 bbl engine and back in the day the hot rod magazines had documented all it needed was a cam, intake, headers, and big carb to go from 290 HP all the way to 445 HP...I had those mods done to mine and can attest to what a monster it became...when mine was stock I had a very sweet modified LT1 Camaro run away from me and hide and after my mods I did the same to him....and as one more anecdote, when my Dad and me were tearing the engine down for the mods, we checked the tolerances and were astounded to find our block had 4 bolt mains, which was not the norm but apparently some of the 4 bbl 351 Clevelands got the 4 bolt blocks....whereas all the Boss blocks were 4 bolt....also for those who don't know, the reason I keep saying 4 bbl engine is because the 2 bbl cleveland heads had smaller valves, which were still sizable but not the BBC sized valves in the 4 bbl engine.
I built a mild 400m for my dad,,030 over, slight came upgrade caused valve springs to stack so be aware that m heads need springs replaced for even very slight came lift upgrades. Engine went into a 78 f250 4x4 and still runs great. Very tourquey, turned 40 inch mud tires nicely..
@Myvintageiron7512 can you confirm that a 351m/400 heads will bolt on a 351w? and if so are there other parts that need to be changed? will the OEM 5.8 intake manifold work?
I really appreciate your knowledge..you've answered a few constant thoughts...my only problem/concerns are which is easier to install in a 1998 Lincoln Town Car, and I am guessing the 351 makes more horsepower over the 302....🤔 ?
negative the 1998 lincoln town car had a 4.6 not and older 351w or 351m or 351c 302 and if you want a direct bolt in motor with allot of power look for a 4v Lincoln mark 8 type motor or a 4v later cobra motor ..600hp easy if built correctly
@@dexter2433 Thanks for the reply, but that's the whole purpose of choosing a older motor.. I am trying to get away from the PCM/Computer, sensors, and expensive tunning.... I was hoping to hear, direct bolt on, or slightly modifi to fit
larger ports and canted valves allow better flow making a setup for better high rpm horsepower if on the drag strip ....but today cheaper after market parts are available making these old school mods obsolete unless you can do allot of the work your self and have the parts just laying around and want to make power on the cheep because your own personal labor is much cheaper than paying a shop to do it for you ..
ik heb ook en 400 M in mijn sportsroef 1972 wat kan ik het beste doen om de vermogen op te schroeven ik heb nu e twe barel 2150 carburateur op zitten wat raad je mijn aan thanks Tonie vrom holand gr.
Hey bud. Love this episode. I was wondering if that timing cover for the Cleveland block instead of the stock steel, would a stainless steel plate be better? I have seen the stock ones get pin holes usually from too much water instead of the 50/50 mix not being correct. Would a stainless plate work better? It wouldn't be hard to make since it is a flat piece and could be cut with a plasma cutter.
hi there i would like to know what is the 351 modified is it the Windsor motor as i have a 302 Winsor in my 1989 f150 4x4 and got to replace the motor in the next 6 months and can you Cleveland motor be set up for unleaded fuel heads.
@@Myvintageiron7512 Do you take in outside work? I don’t see any info for your shop on here. I’m up in Cave Creek and need to have a valve job done on my 79 bronco with a 351M. I was going to drop the heads off at Phoenix Engine but my buddy got screwed around by them and I’d prefer to go to you since I love your videos.Thanks, Dave
remember this is the early days of motor technology with out computers to help with engineering but for the time the side oilier is still the only motor banned from NASCAR because dodge and Chevy cried like babies and now we have the 355cic limit www.rcnmag.com/blog/whats-so-special-about-the-side-oiler
The best is a 351 W block, 400M crank as it fits in 351w block and 351 C 4V Heads with an Aussie Clevor intake if you go 0.030 over on bore you got a 408ci 4V Boss motor !
Awesome video, not sure if you have another video on putting 4v Cleveland heads on a 400 the do's and dont's, see I have been doing a lot of reading on blogs and such and I have found myself still wondering about what I can do, I am my own worst enemy and kick ass at wasting money and have a shit ton of parts on my shelves from ways that didn't work on other projects anyhow what can I do to put 4v Cleveland heads on my 400 and hey is it worth it like I'm not going to change the cam just heads and 4v intake I'm thinking it would be a low bang for the buck unless you tell me other wise thanks great videos btw you've help me through all the bullshit and puss people try to feed me
Larger main bearings are a tradeoff. They can handle more load usually, but larger bearing diameters wear faster because the surface speed of the bearings is so much greater at any given RPM. The 302 bottom end is a proven design with very few issues if any. 351M series engines are known for weak bottom ends or at least bottom ends that wear out more quickly. The main bearings on M engines always seemed to sound "wallowed out" at medium to high mileages even in luxury car land yacht engines and often they'd have low oil pressure on a hot idle.
negative as the 351w also has the same mains as the 351m and 400 and the 351m/400 crank will drop right in a 351w block and with a bit of machine work and balancing and custom pistons will make a 400+ cid ford 351w with all stock ford parts and is considered very strong and a motor of long life with ease lasting just as long as any 302 built motor
coolest ford engine I ever had was a worked 352. It was in a pulling truck not sure what was all done but it ripped. I was young and didnt know that much back then I remember the valves were huge though no way they were stock. it had huge intake ports too my uncle told me it was a thunderbird special or something like that
externally the 4V on the front is the only way. Though a 4V will always come with a 4bbl intake and a large carby. Take the intake off and the intake ports are way bigger than a 2V. Too large! There is 4v open and closed chamber engines, about 10cc different in volume. And all 4Vs have larger valves which like the ports are too big. For decades people have been fitting those heads with tongues on the intakes to try and get some velocity through the port.
If you use the 2v closed chamber heads the compression raises to 10,75,1.is that to much for a 400?I hear you need to run 96 octaine plus or they can pre detinate?
Great vid, 400 modified's are very underrated engines, I had one in my Grand Torino,lots of torque, so can you put aftermarket 302 heads on the 400? Tks
Some one pull the original 390FE on my galaxie and they drop a 351M, i was going to build it but summit racing told me it wasn't worth it.... what is your opinion on the 351M as a machinist and your knowledge ? Is it really worth it or not ?
Personally if you already have the 351 I’d just stroke it to 400, unretard the timing, use Cleveland heads (Australian ones if you can find it) double roller timing chain headers and in HEI distributor andan aluminum intake. Definitely ARP rod and head bolts but I wouldn’t spend a fortune. It’ll never be a drag engine but it will keep up ok.
You've covered the 302 & 351W's and 302 &351C's and the 351M and mentioned the Boss and the FE and the Y block now as I remember there was another OHV Ford V8...As I remember it had 5 bellhousing bolt holes...Early Mustang 289's may be.?..Not sure 'bout that or was it the 260.?..
Hay man love the video I learned a lot but quick question about something maybe it's a dumb question but how do you get 400 ci out of the 351m block?? And how is the 351m and 351c blocks both 351ci if the 351m has a longer deck hight but a 4inch bore I would really appreciate it if you answered or anybody really thanks and a good one
A friend of mine bought a 1980 F150 new with the 351m. He changed the oil every 3000 miles, kept the truck looking like new. He was old and never beat on the truck. The engine was junk after 80,000 miles. Every valve guide was gone, rod bearings scared the crank, (rod bearings to skinny, a weak spot in design), and cam was shot. He ended up buying a new motor and sold the truck. I do enjoy your channel. Very informative.
I'm also hoping you will show a Y block eng 272 - 312. I thought the 312 came out in 56 but everything i'm reading shows 312 didn't come out till 57. I have a 56 F100 . I was hoping it had the 312 Y block, but apparently i'm wrong, it's a 272.
Hey quick question for you. My son and I are doing a ‘77 F150 4x4 project together. Stock motor is is a 351M but I want to swap it over to ‘87 5.0 HP. I know the actual engine mounts are different from 351/400 to 302/5.0 motors but what about the frame engine mounts will I need to make any modifications? Thanks Jeff
The reason the 400 had the style engine mounts and bellhousing bolt pattern, the engine was designed to replace the 390 FE engine in the full size cars. The mounts were designed to fit into the same location as the 460. This made it easy to install ether a 460 or a 400 using the same frame mount and transmission. Ford didn't intend the 400 to be used as a small block replacement!
Correct, One year they were drilled small Windsor pattern for one model of car. The 351/400M are big blocks. Use C6 normally. I would like a 4 speed auto but nothing fits the block to my knowledge, or not here in Oz anyway.
Cause the 390 did not meet emissions laws for 1977 1976 and early model light duty trucks had the 390 as a option then 1977 and later trucks 390 was replaced by 351M and 400 and a stick shift transmission was an option but in the full size cars with these engines only had the automatic.
Great video brother I have 351m in all 3 of my Fords. ( 78 Bronco Ranger XLT) (78 F150 Ranger XLT) (78 F250 Custom) All 4x4 Good to know I can up the transmission on them!
Got the 78 same model same engine It’s my understanding an 4spd eod tranny will bolt right up Going to rebuild it one day Going this route www.garysgaragemahal.com/351m-and-400.html And or maybe this www.hotrod.com/articles/how-to-build-ford-351-cleveland/?fbclid=IwAR2bwMeMmCwVLa3MeAsCG0JklmM4KaMMUALShaaqFQQ4-UIsPh_F-ucQG00 Or www.tmeyerinc.com/engine-builds/ What mods have you done if any The hot rod article was just published 1-2019
There exists debate as to what Ford meant by the "M" designation of the 351M. Some claim the "M" stands for “Modified” - being modified from a 400-V8 with a shortened stroke - though others claim that the "M" refers to the Michigan Casting Center, where the 351M began production. Some say that the "M" designation has no official meaning, and that it was just Ford's way of distinguishing the 351M from the 351C and 351W.[29]
I had a nasty 2.3 lima engine 4 banger, milled head, stainless steel valves, crane solid lifter cam half inch lift with around 260 degrees duration a four barrel split plane intake manifold with a 390 Holley going out a Hooker header into a glass pak around double the stock hp, as for rod length you can use chevy rods, aftermarket pistons etc.
I was not aware the FE blocks were called Y-Blocks. I thought the Ford only made a few Y-blocks such as the 272 that was in my '57 F100, 292, and 312 that was in the Fords.. Not including the Lincoln or Merc.
FEs were an upgrade on the Y block. Same basic infrastructure. But FEs were far more modern in the head design.Y blocks were 232 272 and 292. And the 332 was a bit of both. Smallest FE I feel was 252? I dont know these engines near as well as Clevo and M engines. Or Windsors. The 429-460 are too an xtent a big boss 302! And are NOT FEs!
Michael Anthony my 77 Ford F-250 read as this 6.6 liter /400-400M . My 70 F150 xlt read as this 351/400M . The 400 /400 M is the best ford work engine imho. No hi rpms tho. 600cfm 2 barrel stock . Great power and dependability and got a honest 16 mpg when running properly. The 79 1/2 ton with the 351/400M just didn’t have it compared to the 400/400M . It did have a 4 barrel and long tube headers with mad ignition and a red air filter. Didn’t matter tho that old stock 400M was a pure BEAST. My bro blew up my 79 “ not one dent or scratch btw” while out one night on a hot date . Don’t know how he did it but he blew a 13,000 dollar FORD RACING engine ( blue printed ) I bought it complete from a man who was just getting to know how married life goes, on the cheap. He spent a lot of hard earned tow boater money on that truck in the 10 years he was single. Spent 13,000 on the engine alone. It was built to the hilt still the stock 400M ate it for breakfast. Oh ya my younger brother spun the mains on that “ racing engine” on his second run . Still won . But blew my hi dollar 79 up. I tried to blow that 400m stock engine up for 8 years and could not do it. It eventually ate up the oil rings to the point I had to clean every plug in the engine per day of work. Otherwise it would not start. Good ol ford she was. And I doubled my money on the 79 with the mains spun . That conveniences me there is something different besides 1 1/2 years of production. I want to put one in a Mercury Cougar from the 90’s but I don’t think it fits .
What happened to the 351M project? I'm a Chevy guy, but I love the 67-68 Mustang. Almost bought one awhile back, still might. I was thinking a 400 stroker Windsor. But then there is the 400M, do they use the same deck height?
Again a 400M is a big block, Tall deck Clevo, big block mounts and bellhousing pattern. I doubt it would fit in a early Mustang size wise. 400M will fit though I dont really recomend 4" cranks in those engines and unless you buy aftermarket heads they dont breathe either. 351W with a bit more compression. mild cam and pipes is a good solid engine.
Got a question and it's nothing to do with this topic. E7 Ford heads have a small vent like, hole on the intake side right in the middle of them.. I've heard several different things. Could you please explain to me what they are for..? Thank you for all these awesome educational videos.
would luv to see a clevor bogus boss build! 335 series blocks were all cast for 4 bolt mains. You can see it on the rear main boss of 351M. Very rugged block.
The American 302 and 351 Windsor are basically the same engine with a different deck height. The 351 Cleveland and the 351/400M are basically the same engine with different deck heights. Now there are some differences in main journal sizes and bell housing mounting, etc, but that's the basics of both designs.
How much did it cost to get the blue block cleaned to the point it looks like new metal? If you did it yourself, what did you use to get it that clean? Thanks, dt
We use a Vat tank or an oven and a blaster these are machine shop operations just take it to a shop don't waste you time trying to clean this stuff yourself you will never get it clean
Thanks for your answer, how much should I expect it to cost to get my block cleaned like the blue block? Thanks for your help in this matter. You do a great job with explaining what to do in your videos!!!!!
Good vid, but the editing was a little funky. I noticed that when youtube changed the layout, my editing got messed up too somehow, just something to keep an eye on. I'm going to try screen recording future videos and uploading that instead, in the future.
I have a ??,, can a AODE transmission work with a 351 Windsor? I have a 302 engine in my truck but would like to swap it to a 351,I that possible? Thanks in advance
Fantastic video thank you very much so much information. I'm a 61 year old retired Marine a little beat up from the years of service. But you really give me motivation. I recently picked up a painfully bone stock 1977 F-150 4x4 4 spd with a 351 modified engine. I seem to have a knack for finding out of the norm vehicles. Thanks for all the great inside and info on this 351m engine. FYI 1977 F150 has never been restored. Been sitting for almost 16 years. It's a short bed Farmtruck but it has full trim and a vinyl roof. I love the patina on it can't wait get it running. First time viewer I will definitely be back.
I'm a Chevy guy but I like building engines and it doesn't matter what kind it is. Great video.
i agree i gots two toyotas i got to refresh high mile good runner 5mge 2.8l 7mgte 3.0 in-liners
My 1997 F150 4.6 is totally stock, 200,000 miles. When you get it up to 90 or so it has the sweetest sound. Single exhaust. Heart of a tiger.
300000 96 tbird bullet proof sadly governor kicks in at118. Only once but lots left.lol
Thank You! Very Interesting! It's been years since building any engines and just getting back into it for a pickup I'm doing. Just went and looked at a junkyard 351W to replace my 302 ho efi roller. This answered several questins I had before I buy the other engine. Greta Job! I look forward to more of your videos. Daryl
My dad put a 400 in a 1980 F250 camper special , this was in the early 80's and not much aftermarket support for these engines. The block was a 30 over stock rebuild with factory 8:1 pistons and open chamber heads (2v) .The heads and intake were milled to slightly bump up compression, it had a Isky RV hydraulic cam and Crane adjustable pushrods, recurved stock distributor, Edelbrock SP 2P intake ,625 com Carter AFB carb, Eagle long tube headers into a true dual side exit exhaust ( Midas turbo mufflers) plus the C6 automatic had a mild shift kit with 3.73 : 1 gears blah blah blah. With this humble combination this was one stealthy pick up, it could blow the doors off most other vehicles especially on big hills ( thank goodness in had 2 fuel tanks). I can just imagine what you could do with one of these engines today (aluminium heads better pistons ,roller cams ,roller rockers, EFI better exhaust technology, transmissions etc..) So to make a long story short: Build a 400 and be different plus they are quite good looking especially when dressed up!
So informative - thank you so much! I picked up a 1976 truck that has been cobbled together, and this will definitely help me identify what I have. 👍
Thanks for posting, you answered 20 yrs. of my questions regarding these Ford engines!!!
I enjoy your videos. No need to over complicating the 351-M. Simply put the 351-M is a de-stroked 400 (4" bore 4" stroke) big brother of the 351-C which was created just after the 1969 introduction of the 351W. More 351 engines were needed than could be produced at the Ford Windsor plant so production began at the Ford Cleveland plant while at the same time improving the design of the 351W thus creating the 335 engine series the 351-C and 400 (which replaced the FE 390). Then around 1975 because 351-C engine had ceased production (but not on the 400) and more 351's were needed the 400 was de-stroked to create a 351 designated M. As you have pointed out different from the 351-C because the 400 had taller deck height, larger 3" mains and different engine mounts etc. (there were 400's with both the small and large bolt patterns referred to as FMX blocks made in the early 70's). Looking at the 351M as a 400 makes it much easier to understand and compare to other engines...at least I think so...hope this helps.
Elstevo Mac understood
Windsor also built Cleveland engines...
So you can get more outta a 351M than a Cleveland? I bought a 71 mustang off family and instead of a 351C under the hood like the vin says I found a 351M. I guess my uncle blew the original. I’m trying to figure out if it’s worth looking around for another 351c or saying screw it and going for a restomod.
@@Bonanzaking pull the 351 and drop a 400m with the cleveland 4v heads and you have a stroked cleveland. They run very well.,I have two.
@@briana3467 2v heads are proven to be better for the street. What are your 2 400 setup for?
I've had all of the engines you mentioned at one time or the other and worked on many of them as a Ford dealership technician,but my favorite has to be the 351 Cleveland. Those were some great engines to me. I've had 302s,390s,360s etc etc. But my 351 Cleveland impressed me the most.
351C had the best set of factory heads. 351M is a smog control, low-compression boat anchor. I've worked on them all myself and my favorite is still the 289.
@@josephtravers777 very true. In my opinion, the only thing to do with a 351m is to pull it out and turn it into a 400 with better heads and intake, or rip it AND the transmission out and put in a 351W and a C4
@@ssgpentland8241 The big problem w/ 351M/400 platform is deck height/piston availability to bump up compression.
Clevelands breath fire
Lets simplify. 351s all have 4" bore and 3.5 stroke. And the same bore spacing and head bolt spacing.
289, 302W are aprox 8.2 deck. 351W 351 C are about 9.2" and the M engine is 10.2.
351 C and M heads all interchange. But start at under 60cc for Aussie 302C and up to 78cc for 400. All 2Vs use the same valves and they are all that is required. Big valves like a 4V have no airspeed.
302W is tiny, 5.150 for 289 and 5.090 for 302s and deck,
Clevos and 351W are an inch taller and the M is an inch taller again.
302C has 6.030 rods, 351C have 5.780 rods 351 and 400M have 6.580 rods.
351W all alone with just under 6" .
351W, 351 and 400M all have 3" mains which really are too big as the larger the dia the more it heats the oil and the bearing. Just ok on a low RPM slugger. The C engine is better but still bigger than the industry standard of a Chev at 2.5". 302W is around that as well.
The 289/302 engines are a tiny little thing and go well for what they are BUT really the crankcase is too small. Putting a 3.4 [347] crank in them,, grind pan rails, dent the pan etc to clear the throws and rods. Never really a good idea, even 3.25 is a not great deal better. But does produce a bit more useable torque.
The Windsor though does have far better oiling than its larger capacity and bigger block brothers. Ford do make 351 blocks with Clevo main size or 302s with 2" rod journals as well. Just 50 years late!
While the ooh aaah with Boss 302s they were actually a dog of a thing to drive. tiny little engine with huge ports,, yup a no bottom end thing that you have to rev hard to make go. Makes a 302Chev so much better and they were no great shakes in street driveability and especially with the best Z28 heads.
A 351 Boss style thing has a couple of advantages but the 3" mains do not.
So a 351C with 6" rods and a good deal of attention to the oiling is a bit better. People have raced 302C as well. 2V 302 Aussie heads and not a bad thing for under 5 litre racing, but otherwise that capacity is a waste of time.
Those heads though are far better than 4Vs up to around 6000rpm. And even then really are too big in the ports. They are bigger than a raceport on a Chev. The canted valve looks impressive but in the real world not so much. 3Vs from Victoria are considerably better but not that cheap!
Actually compare a big block Chev head with a Clevo head or even a 429 head!
And with all of these engines and not just Fords be very carefull of what component manufacturers make these days. My 400M cruiser engine with the new FM /Speedpro pistons that started with 9.1-1 would have had about 7.5-1 with the new pistons supplied as well as Felpro /050 thick head gaskets compared with the OEM 34 thou. and been a gutless thirsty polluting pig. I used Aussie 302 heads 60CC and have the original 9,1-1 but even then a lousy combo as the pistons down the hole is not efficient or very clean either. But it is a 2 ton tank so does not matter a great deal. It was far sharper with the 78CC heads cut .050 giving about 9.8-1. And cleaner as well!
Manufactures should be shot with what they do for unleaded fuel. Especially as for a cruiser most people dont mind buying premium unleaded anyway. Then use a Multispark ignition and it will be near as efficient as a leaded engine and last longer as well.
LDN Wholesale great info on that comment
I love where you explain the issues of having an aluminum timing cover on an iron Ford 302. I literally had my timing cover bust a lead at the exact point where you pointed to at the 12:00 minute mark on my Lincoln Mark VII with a 5.0. Between work and the family, I just finished up installing a new timing gear-set, timing cover with seal, balancer, water pump, thermostat, thermostat housing, silicone hoses, and radiator. To say the aluminum timing covers leak alot is an understatement.
Love the Vids.
0.020"
I found this post very useful I have an engine, transmission, and rolling frame from a 1-ton Ford I'm trying to identify so I can get parts. Nothing else is giving me this much information. Thank you.
I always like your videos. You give all the details & knowledge necessary to your viewers. Thanks a lot mate, keep up the good work.
I also need your advice on a conversion I'm asked to do for a customer's 79 Mustang V6 2.8 to a V8 289ci C4 lying in my shop. I know one major difference is that I'll need a rear sump kit for the conversion. Hope to hear from you. Cheers
thank you sooo much for all these videos !!! we all need more of this ford knowledge . cause there so darn complicated .
Really good vid, and thanks for the discussion about dwell, as well as all the other infor you provide.
really should be calling it a 351m/400 block because they are exactly the same and some may want to know by simple using the 400 crank and 400 pistons you now have 400 cid motor they both use the same rods and everything interchanges.....also if i remember correctly all 351m/400 blocks are cast for excepting the 4 bolt main caps ..also you should know the 351m/400 crank main bearing are the same as the 351w and you can custom cut a 351m/400 crank allowing it to fit in a 351w block creating a stroke kit with all bone stock ford parts making your 351w a 413cid ford windser block if punched 30 over
Just an observation about the 351m engine mounting pads you talked about (center punch, drill and tap) to use the two bolt 351c type mount. It you look at the drivers side of the block in your video, It only has one (the front) of those bosses present. You even touched the spot where the boss is missing in the center location on the drivers side of the block three times. It could turn into a bummer for someone thinking they have the option of using the two bolt mount and find out that other boss is missing. That's the way it looks to me. Your videos bring back my days in the 70ies and 80ies when I built rep AC Cobra's with everything from 302's to side oiler 427's. We even had a SOHC 427 at one time. Talk about a monster engine.
All the best from Scottsdale.
I have had a number of these engines and have found that the 351M and 351C had oiling problems with the crank but have not had the same problem with the 351W
OK, where did this build end up? This seems to be the last video.
the 351 m started replacing the Fe 360 in pickup trucks they work pretty good if you use the oil pressure gauge as a tachometer and driving like that keep them revved up and pumping oil everybody was lugging them and the bearings didn't last when you love them 351m low oil pressure really drops
I recommend a high volume pump for this engine and don't over rev it either these engines don't like high RPM's the crank journals are to big
the 351m/400 crank journals are the same as a 351w should try building a clevor by grinding a 400 crank counter weights then re-balance allowing you to get 4" stroke in a 351w block
You talked about liquid corrosion. In '81 my dad's 78 Chevy C10, lost a water pump. We added Prestone water pump lube. In '03 I rebuilt engine. To my surprise the steel head gaskets looked new! That was at 330,000+ miles. I just copper coated and reused them. Vintage '78 steel head gaskets and coolant hoses to this day.
Take care from Oklahoma
Mike and Vee
Those old Chevy shim head gaskets are better than most realise. Use a composite gasket and you lose compression and they seem to fail quicker. I have used them as a single gasket, stacked to get valve clearance even used them with alloy heads. Though not so good there as the alloy is ofcourse softer. And never seen one blown. Leak a bit, yes, with heavily milled heads.
We built a 400 with Boss 302 heads and made spacers for the 351 C INTAKE After we modified the heads to work on that block .This was back in the 1970's because we couldn't get a 400 crank inyto a 351 C block and we had the heads fron another job . It worked well in a 1871 Mach 1 .
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Great video man, that engine is clean what did you use to get it all cleaned up? I found an old 351m and c6 tranny in my dads garage when he died in working on rebuilding it now only to find out it ain't stock. Crank has been ground 20 under and the cylinders have been bored 30 over it's a learning experience just trying to figure everything out. I with I knew who he got this motor from lol
Thank you for the excellent videos! Would love to see ya do a Ford 400 build video because, well because 400s have a lot of potential, and because I own one and will soon be rebuilding it (I've already rebuilt the chassis and purchased a excellent rust free cab and bed for it, so I am well into it. It is a 1980 F350 4X4 I purchase from a 95 year retired rancher and WWII vet. When I bought it two years ago, he told me the house there where he lived, and adjacent barnyard where the truck was parked, was where he picked his wife up for their high school prom date! She also is still alive and doing well. I told him that if I could get the truck running (it had sat for 3 years), and if it would make it up the big hill by his house, I would buy it, and it made it up the hill. Lol. I also own two 1963 fords, a f100 and a f600 that I am doing extensive work on, both have y blocks, and a 1990 F250 driver with 7.3 idi, and a B600 church bus that I have done a fair amount of work to. Guess I'm just an old Ford truck nut. Anyway, you've videos are excellent. Thank you!
Very cool I do have a 400 build waiting in the wings but it's gona be a while I also love Ford trucks I am a really big fan of the FE engines mostly the 390 and 428
@@dtorr222 Thank you for your reply. And again, I appreciate the high quality of your videos.
great videos. my questiin......is the Cleveland block (other than the two different deck heights) similar to the modified block with the Windsor transmission bellhousing pattern and two bolt motor mounts?
yes
I have a 351M in my 78 Ranchero. The only engine mods I have done are headers, 4bbl intake with a Holly 600, MSD Distributor and MSD electronic ignition. I have new Edelbrock Aluminum heads, a Comp Cam (Mother Thumpr) and Scorpion roller rockers to install but have never worked this deep into an engine before. Your promised video would be very helpful - when do you think it will come out?
It is on the list and will be coming soon but as you probably know engine building is time consuming and documenting it on video takes much longer but it will happen remember some of these builds are filmed several months before they are edited and posted
Dude< when you gonna do this 351m build ...waiting....
So obviously it wasnt soon like said in the video?
Timing chain cover at 11:32 . oldsmobile baby lol. Im so addicted to your channel, at this point you could be building Renault motors and I still would be watching
Cool I had a 79 bronco with a 400 in it dropped a valve and got me home I repaired it and kept drive years more! great engine!... Also had a 351 Cleveland in a 71 galaxie great engine the transmission bolt pattern is a dead giveaway between the Cleveland and the 351m/400... 351c small pattern. 351m/400 big pattern. Easy to spot at the junyard!
I am late to the party here, and great vid! But, if I may correct you, the FE and Y-blocks were two different engine families. 292, 312, etc were Y-blocks, and the FE started out as a 352, 360, 390, 428, etc. The M gets a bad wrap, but they were pretty stout motors. Not power houses by any means, but durable! Although I have heard some having issues with the block shifting in the valley, causing cracks between the lifter bores. Great comparison, to show the difference in mass compared to the SBF!
The FE engines are actually devided into two different types, the car engine FE and the truck engine FT and they're almost the same but there are a few important differences
If a person were to build a car would they want to go with a 351W or a 351M... I've got a stock 351M from 1977 as well but my 1970 cougar came with the 351W, fitting isnt a problem but modifying it to be a nice little runner what would you say?
Go with the W engine
So on the 351M if there is water and oil mixing it will not be from a bad intake gasket? I purchased a 351M f100 and the motor was supposedly rebuilt but i have the dreaded milkshake. I have no experience with 351M motors so i was thinking maybe it was a crappy intake gasket but if there are no water ports then im assuming that wouldnt be the case. Correct?
Thanks for the video very interseting,let me ask you i have a 74 bronco with 80,000 original miles and have yet to really do anything with it but the motor seems pretty strong now if you wanted more horsepower would i be better off putting the money into this motor such as efi,headers,new intake,new heads,etc... or would you have this motor rebuilt and then add those items or would you put the money into a new crate motor? I am not sure which way to go i want it to be a good daily driver but also want it to be very offroad capable,any help or insight would be very much appreciated!
Add bit bigger cam/lifters & new spring kit. Add aluminum dual manifold. Headers/dual exhaust. & for sure high volume oil pump. Good to go then
If you’ll notice also on your 351 block, the fuel pump bolt up is top and bottom where your 302 is side to side.
this 302 came out of a ltaer model mustang. All I know as of now. Bought it through a friend who is selling everything he owns. It can work but, is the best choice for a 66 Bronco, that I am not interrested in a Coyote 5.0. In other words would a 351 Windsor be a much better choice? Also are there complete conversion parts for sale as they are for the earlier engnes. This engine must be much different from the 302 that was a Bronco engine in 69. I'm trying to learn knowing nothing much about engines, torque, etc.
not really much different at all it will bolt up to the engine mounts and transmission uses a different balancer and flex plate
I think you can use the 400 crank and rods to make the 351M into a 400. those are really decent engines to work with that sadly the aftermarket forgot about. the Horsepower Monster channel built a 400 with Cleveland heads and other little tricks,all naturally aspirated and got over 500 HP and very high torque numbers with a flat as Kansas torque curve. love to take a engine like that and build a Starsky and Hutch replica of a 74-76 2 door Torino with! that is me though!
I live in Kansas not that flat till you get out west. Just saying.
it is the crank and pistons to convert to a 400cid both have the same rods ....the 351 uses a 3.5" stroke crank and pistons with a relocated wrist pin to make the 351cid
My dad at a modified in a 76 LTD man that thing ran good and lasted years we could take it cross country and never have no problems out of it he rebuilt it when we first got the car and lasted 12 years till he got rid of it and the guy ran it for years after that till he sold it. I’m not a Ford guy but they built some awesome engines the modifieds don’t get enough love and there really a factor stroker engine.
3 years later I'm watching your videos..I just bought a 1977 ford truck with a 351 m..that is Simi locked up...so I have to rebuild or see if I want to modify the engine
I had to replace head gasket 5.4 Triton. Had head pressure tested. And check for straight nest. put new time in chains. now I have a rest pin knock. any thought to what I might have done wrong.
I had a 78 Mercury Marquis with a 351m minute and I absolutely loved it
My son bought a Ford farm truck with a 351 modified, it only has 55000 miles but number 4 cylinder seems to have a burnt valve, is this a common problem? The plug has spark but it's oily and it's definitely no. 4 that either has no compression or something because the engine runs the same with or without spark on that cylinder.
I haven't heard of this being common but one thing is for sure you need to pull the head
Australia produced 351 Cleveland for quite a number of years which have thicker blocks then they also did something very strange they made a 302 Cleveland, same size block different size conrods Actually longer.
So a very popular build many years ago was 2 use the 302 con rods on the 351 crank with shorter pistons and presto a lot of power
Yep I am getting ready to do a clevor engine 351W with edelbrock aluminum heads
In Australia the 302 Cleveland used a shorter stroke crank with 351 pin height piston with 351M rod, just to muddy the waters a bit more
Sorry not 351 M rod as it is 6.25 inch , the 302 Cleveland has a six inch rod , made in Australia just like the 302c block
here in australia we had a 302 cleveland with closed chamber 2v heads
maybe would like to know more I know yall got stuff we did not get in the states do to emissions
@@dexter2433 it wasn't emissions. It was because Ford sold the rights to make the Cleveland Heads to a company Down Under. I wish i could remember the companies name but it escapes me at the moment.
Better yet is a Boss 351 build which requires a 4 bolt Cleveland block, Cleveland 4 bbl. heads, mechanical cam (etc.), aluminum intake and a big carb...unknown to most Ford fans is that the '71 Boss 351 held the quickest 1/4 mile time of any production ford back in the muscle car era and was only bettered with some of the more recent pony cars. I owned a '70 Mach I with a 351C 4 bbl engine and back in the day the hot rod magazines had documented all it needed was a cam, intake, headers, and big carb to go from 290 HP all the way to 445 HP...I had those mods done to mine and can attest to what a monster it became...when mine was stock I had a very sweet modified LT1 Camaro run away from me and hide and after my mods I did the same to him....and as one more anecdote, when my Dad and me were tearing the engine down for the mods, we checked the tolerances and were astounded to find our block had 4 bolt mains, which was not the norm but apparently some of the 4 bbl 351 Clevelands got the 4 bolt blocks....whereas all the Boss blocks were 4 bolt....also for those who don't know, the reason I keep saying 4 bbl engine is because the 2 bbl cleveland heads had smaller valves, which were still sizable but not the BBC sized valves in the 4 bbl engine.
I built a mild 400m for my dad,,030 over, slight came upgrade caused valve springs to stack so be aware that m heads need springs replaced for even very slight came lift upgrades. Engine went into a 78 f250 4x4 and still runs great. Very tourquey, turned 40 inch mud tires nicely..
Excellent video! I definitely would've liked to see the Y block comparisons as well. Future vid maybe..
@Myvintageiron7512 can you confirm that a 351m/400 heads will bolt on a 351w? and if so are there other parts that need to be changed? will the OEM 5.8 intake manifold work?
I really appreciate your knowledge..you've answered a few constant thoughts...my only problem/concerns are which is easier to install in a 1998 Lincoln Town Car, and I am guessing the 351 makes more horsepower over the 302....🤔 ?
negative the 1998 lincoln town car had a 4.6 not and older 351w or 351m or 351c 302 and if you want a direct bolt in motor with allot of power look for a 4v Lincoln mark 8 type motor or a 4v later cobra motor ..600hp easy if built correctly
@@dexter2433 Thanks for the reply, but that's the whole purpose of choosing a older motor.. I am trying to get away from the PCM/Computer, sensors, and expensive tunning.... I was hoping to hear, direct bolt on, or slightly modifi to fit
Could you talk more about the 351m intake manifolds advantages and disadvantages.
larger ports and canted valves allow better flow making a setup for better high rpm horsepower if on the drag strip ....but today cheaper after market parts are available making these old school mods obsolete unless you can do allot of the work your self and have the parts just laying around and want to make power on the cheep because your own personal labor is much cheaper than paying a shop to do it for you ..
ik heb ook en 400 M in mijn sportsroef 1972 wat kan ik het beste doen om de vermogen op te schroeven ik heb nu e twe barel 2150 carburateur op zitten wat raad je mijn aan thanks Tonie vrom holand gr.
Hey bud. Love this episode. I was wondering if that timing cover for the Cleveland block instead of the stock steel, would a stainless steel plate be better? I have seen the stock ones get pin holes usually from too much water instead of the 50/50 mix not being correct. Would a stainless plate work better? It wouldn't be hard to make since it is a flat piece and could be cut with a plasma cutter.
hi there i would like to know what is the 351 modified is it the Windsor motor as i have a 302 Winsor in my 1989 f150 4x4 and got to replace the motor in the next 6 months and can you Cleveland motor be set up for unleaded fuel heads.
351/400M is a tall deck Clevo big block. Nothing to do with a Windsor. Apart from 3" mains!
more info on the 351m would be great ! cant wait to see what your going to do to that thing
It's coming
Will you need a custom intake manifold for 351M with other heads?
When u say 302..does it reference to 289 also? Or .ty great video..
No a 289 is a earlier motor with a shorter stroke
10 4 very informative loaded with information I use to be a chev man all my live my boys got me started on mustangs
I like chevy's and Fords Ive has some really good ones from both brands but my favorite is Mopar
@@Myvintageiron7512 Do you take in outside work? I don’t see any info for your shop on here. I’m up in Cave Creek and need to have a valve job done on my 79 bronco with a 351M. I was going to drop the heads off at Phoenix Engine but my buddy got screwed around by them and I’d prefer to go to you since I love your videos.Thanks, Dave
Can you please explain the side oiler part of the 427. Thanks
Great videos.
remember this is the early days of motor technology with out computers to help with engineering but for the time the side oilier is still the only motor banned from NASCAR
because dodge and Chevy cried like babies and now we have the 355cic limit
www.rcnmag.com/blog/whats-so-special-about-the-side-oiler
So the 352M has the same bell housing as the 460 could a 351 M bolt up to the 460 motor mounts?
Could you take a 351W and use the heads of a Cleveland like you can with a 302?
Yes, IF you can find an intake to suit. They are /were made but all of these engines are not that popular with manufacturers. Only 302/ 5L Windsors.
yes , it's called a clevor engine.
The best is a 351 W block, 400M crank as it fits in 351w block and 351 C 4V Heads with an Aussie Clevor intake if you go 0.030 over on bore you got a 408ci 4V Boss motor !
Awesome video, not sure if you have another video on putting 4v Cleveland heads on a 400 the do's and dont's, see I have been doing a lot of reading on blogs and such and I have found myself still wondering about what I can do, I am my own worst enemy and kick ass at wasting money and have a shit ton of parts on my shelves from ways that didn't work on other projects anyhow what can I do to put 4v Cleveland heads on my 400 and hey is it worth it like I'm not going to change the cam just heads and 4v intake I'm thinking it would be a low bang for the buck unless you tell me other wise thanks great videos btw you've help me through all the bullshit and puss people try to feed me
you need to upgrade the cam and valve train for those heads
k thanks
is a later model mustang 302 engine a good choice for a 66 Bronco? Also the big block fe engines are truck engines, Correct?
you can use a later 302 in an early car but there are a few differences the FE was used in cars and trucks
Larger main bearings are a tradeoff. They can handle more load usually, but larger bearing diameters wear faster because the surface speed of the bearings is so much greater at any given RPM.
The 302 bottom end is a proven design with very few issues if any. 351M series engines are known for weak bottom ends or at least bottom ends that wear out more quickly. The main bearings on M engines always seemed to sound "wallowed out" at medium to high mileages even in luxury car land yacht engines and often they'd have low oil pressure on a hot idle.
negative as the 351w also has the same mains as the 351m and 400 and the 351m/400 crank will drop right in a 351w block and with a bit of machine work and balancing and custom pistons will make a 400+ cid ford 351w with all stock ford parts and is considered very strong and a motor of long life with ease lasting just as long as any 302 built motor
coolest ford engine I ever had was a worked 352. It was in a pulling truck not sure what was all done but it ripped. I was young and didnt know that much back then I remember the valves were huge though no way they were stock. it had huge intake ports too my uncle told me it was a thunderbird special or something like that
yep the FE was a great engine
could you show the difference between a 351c 2v head and a 4v head ? I think I have a 351c m-code in my mustang but I'm not shore
externally the 4V on the front is the only way. Though a 4V will always come with a 4bbl intake and a large carby.
Take the intake off and the intake ports are way bigger than a 2V. Too large!
There is 4v open and closed chamber engines, about 10cc different in volume. And all 4Vs have larger valves which like the ports are too big. For decades people have been fitting those heads with tongues on the intakes to try and get some velocity through the port.
If you use the 2v closed chamber heads the compression raises to 10,75,1.is that to much for a 400?I hear you need to run 96 octaine plus or they can pre detinate?
RUN EM OM LPG cant get higher octane then that
You mean “pre ignition”, gas ⛽️ doesn’t detonate( super sonic) it burns (sub sonic). Explosives detonate.
Any suggestions on what heads and cam to go with to make decent power with the 351 m? Or any other suggestions thanks.
So what kind of heads do I need to find to turn them into replica boss heads as I'd like to put those on my 302 this year
351 Clevland
Great vid, 400 modified's are very underrated engines, I had one in my Grand Torino,lots of torque, so can you put aftermarket 302 heads on the 400? Tks
would be a step back the stock 351m heads with a little port and polish flow better than even high end after market 302 heads
302 Aussie Clevo heads only. Not Windsor.
thank you. I'm new to ford motor's and this help me a lot.
Some one pull the original 390FE on my galaxie and they drop a 351M,
i was going to build it but summit racing told me it wasn't worth it.... what is your opinion on the 351M as a machinist and your knowledge ?
Is it really worth it or not ?
Personally if you already have the 351 I’d just stroke it to 400, unretard the timing, use Cleveland heads (Australian ones if you can find it) double roller timing chain headers and in HEI distributor andan aluminum intake. Definitely ARP rod and head bolts but I wouldn’t spend a fortune. It’ll never be a drag engine but it will keep up ok.
What heads & cam would it take for a 351 to have peak power over 7k and 570hp?
351M will not live long if it;s twisted to 7K not recommended
You've covered the 302 & 351W's and 302 &351C's and the 351M and mentioned the Boss and the FE and the Y block now as I remember there was another OHV Ford V8...As I remember it had 5 bellhousing bolt holes...Early Mustang 289's may be.?..Not sure 'bout that or was it the 260.?..
Early 260/289 Mustangs and Y blocks used 5 bolt b/h. That is the easy way to pick cheaters for GpN b in Australia.
The 5 bolt bellhousing is the six cylinder style but used on 221ci Windsor's , 260ci Windsor's and early 289ci Windsor's !
Hay man love the video I learned a lot but quick question about something maybe it's a dumb question but how do you get 400 ci out of the 351m block?? And how is the 351m and 351c blocks both 351ci if the 351m has a longer deck hight but a 4inch bore I would really appreciate it if you answered or anybody really thanks and a good one
A friend of mine bought a 1980 F150 new with the 351m. He changed the oil every 3000 miles, kept the truck looking like new. He was old and never beat on the truck. The engine was junk after 80,000 miles. Every valve guide was gone, rod bearings scared the crank, (rod bearings to skinny, a weak spot in design), and cam was shot. He ended up buying a new motor and sold the truck.
I do enjoy your channel. Very informative.
I'm also hoping you will show a Y block eng 272 - 312. I thought the 312 came out in 56 but everything i'm reading shows 312 didn't come out till 57. I have a 56 F100 . I was hoping it had the 312 Y block, but apparently i'm wrong, it's a 272.
Don't have any 312 engines on the drawing board at this time
okay, thanks. Also will the bell housing from a 272 be the same bolt pattern as the 352 so i could swap my trany
And I have 351 windsor what would u run in 78 bronco. Ty running my 351 modified now
Hey quick question for you. My son and I are doing a ‘77 F150 4x4 project together. Stock motor is is a 351M but I want to swap it over to ‘87 5.0 HP. I know the actual engine mounts are different from 351/400 to 302/5.0 motors but what about the frame engine mounts will I need to make any modifications? Thanks Jeff
it depends some of the frames were drilled some were not its kind of a crap shoot with fords
The reason the 400 had the style engine mounts and bellhousing bolt pattern, the engine was designed to replace the 390 FE engine in the full size cars. The mounts were designed to fit into the same location as the 460. This made it easy to install ether a 460 or a 400 using the same frame mount and transmission. Ford didn't intend the 400 to be used as a small block replacement!
Correct, One year they were drilled small Windsor pattern for one model of car. The 351/400M are big blocks. Use C6 normally. I would like a 4 speed auto but nothing fits the block to my knowledge, or not here in Oz anyway.
Cause the 390 did not meet emissions laws for 1977 1976 and early model light duty trucks had the 390 as a option then 1977 and later trucks 390 was replaced by 351M and 400 and a stick shift transmission was an option but in the full size cars with these engines only had the automatic.
Great video brother I have 351m in all 3 of my Fords.
( 78 Bronco Ranger XLT) (78 F150 Ranger XLT)
(78 F250 Custom) All 4x4
Good to know I can up the transmission on them!
Got the 78 same model same engine
It’s my understanding an 4spd eod tranny will bolt right up
Going to rebuild it one day
Going this route
www.garysgaragemahal.com/351m-and-400.html
And or maybe this
www.hotrod.com/articles/how-to-build-ford-351-cleveland/?fbclid=IwAR2bwMeMmCwVLa3MeAsCG0JklmM4KaMMUALShaaqFQQ4-UIsPh_F-ucQG00
Or
www.tmeyerinc.com/engine-builds/
What mods have you done if any
The hot rod article was just published 1-2019
@@peterpiper_203 I got the 1980 bronco with the 351M
R L
Right
On
Check the links I posted some good ideas right there
I just got a 71 mustang, turns out a 351m is in it.
Was that an original timing cover? I had a '77 351M and it wasn't a flat plate.
Did they have any modifieds with 4 bolt mains? It looks like the mains are wide enough to bolt 4 bolts into the block bridges.
nope
loving the Ford stuff. More 385 please. Have a 460 in a bronco and will be hitting you up in the near future for a rebuild...
Cool
The 351M does not stand for modified. The M is for Michigan because that’s where it was made.
You are right and wrong it does not stand for Modified and it also does not stand for Michigan it actually doesen't stand for anything it's just M
There exists debate as to what Ford meant by the "M" designation of the 351M. Some claim the "M" stands for “Modified” - being modified from a 400-V8 with a shortened stroke - though others claim that the "M" refers to the Michigan Casting Center, where the 351M began production. Some say that the "M" designation has no official meaning, and that it was just Ford's way of distinguishing the 351M from the 351C and 351W.[29]
Very informative video brother thanks for the info about to start restoring a 78 f-100
I'm going to build a 400 ford and was wondering if the main caps can be machined for a 4 bolt main caps m
Yes
Hello is 351m bell housing bolt pattern same as 351 windsor an cann u put a c6 4x4 on both engines
No and no the 351 M and 400 have big block bellhousing except for a very very small amount of them , so small they don't count
I had a nasty 2.3 lima engine 4 banger, milled head, stainless steel valves, crane solid lifter cam half inch lift with around 260 degrees duration a four barrel split plane intake manifold with a 390 Holley going out a Hooker header into a glass pak around double the stock hp, as for rod length you can use chevy rods, aftermarket pistons etc.
I will keep following , hoping you will do 427,428,429 fords
I was not aware the FE blocks were called Y-Blocks. I thought the Ford only made a few Y-blocks such as the 272 that was in my '57 F100, 292, and 312 that was in the Fords.. Not including the Lincoln or Merc.
FEs were an upgrade on the Y block. Same basic infrastructure. But FEs were far more modern in the head design.Y blocks were 232 272 and 292. And the 332 was a bit of both. Smallest FE I feel was 252? I dont know these engines near as well as Clevo and M engines. Or Windsors. The 429-460 are too an xtent a big boss 302! And are NOT FEs!
@myvintageiron I have a 351m and the valve cover said 351m 400ci .. so it's a 400 right
Michael Anthony my 77 Ford F-250 read as this 6.6 liter /400-400M . My 70 F150 xlt read as this 351/400M . The 400 /400 M is the best ford work engine imho. No hi rpms tho. 600cfm 2 barrel stock . Great power and dependability and got a honest 16 mpg when running properly. The 79 1/2 ton with the 351/400M just didn’t have it compared to the 400/400M . It did have a 4 barrel and long tube headers with mad ignition and a red air filter. Didn’t matter tho that old stock 400M was a pure BEAST. My bro blew up my 79 “ not one dent or scratch btw” while out one night on a hot date . Don’t know how he did it but he blew a 13,000 dollar FORD RACING engine ( blue printed ) I bought it complete from a man who was just getting to know how married life goes, on the cheap. He spent a lot of hard earned tow boater money on that truck in the 10 years he was single. Spent 13,000 on the engine alone. It was built to the hilt still the stock 400M ate it for breakfast. Oh ya my younger brother spun the mains on that “ racing engine” on his second run . Still won . But blew my hi dollar 79 up. I tried to blow that 400m stock engine up for 8 years and could not do it. It eventually ate up the oil rings to the point I had to clean every plug in the engine per day of work. Otherwise it would not start. Good ol ford she was. And I doubled my money on the 79 with the mains spun . That conveniences me there is something different besides 1 1/2 years of production. I want to put one in a Mercury Cougar from the 90’s but I don’t think it fits .
Not necessarily.
the label says engine family 351m/400. and will have another section that says engine size. either a 5.8 or 6.6.
5.8 is the 351m and the 6.6 is a 400.
Love your content would 302 EFI intake work with 351m block? I have f150 95 model
no
What happened to the 351M project? I'm a Chevy guy, but I love the 67-68 Mustang. Almost bought one awhile back, still might. I was thinking a 400 stroker Windsor. But then there is the 400M, do they use the same deck height?
The 351M is coming up we are working on it
Again a 400M is a big block, Tall deck Clevo, big block mounts and bellhousing pattern. I doubt it would fit in a early Mustang size wise.
400M will fit though I dont really recomend 4" cranks in those engines and unless you buy aftermarket heads they dont breathe either. 351W with a bit more compression. mild cam and pipes is a good solid engine.
Got a question and it's nothing to do with this topic. E7 Ford heads have a small vent like, hole on the intake side right in the middle of them.. I've heard several different things.
Could you please explain to me what they are for..? Thank you for all these awesome educational videos.
would luv to see a clevor bogus boss build! 335 series blocks were all cast for 4 bolt mains. You can see it on the rear main boss of 351M. Very rugged block.
Sorry mate , 351 Clevelands and 302 Clevelands from Australia had two bolt mains from 1975 untill production stopped on Clevelands in 1984/5
I just got a 351M for free complete, but I do not know its inside condition yet could be good could be bad find of this weekend.
The American 302 and 351 Windsor are basically the same engine with a different deck height.
The 351 Cleveland and the 351/400M are basically the same engine with different deck heights.
Now there are some differences in main journal sizes and bell housing mounting, etc, but that's the basics of both designs.
How much did it cost to get the blue block cleaned to the point it looks like new metal? If you did it yourself, what did you use to get it that clean? Thanks, dt
We use a Vat tank or an oven and a blaster these are machine shop operations just take it to a shop don't waste you time trying to clean this stuff yourself you will never get it clean
Thanks for your answer, how much should I expect it to cost to get my block cleaned like the blue block? Thanks for your help in this matter. You do a great job with explaining what to do in your videos!!!!!
Good vid, but the editing was a little funky. I noticed that when youtube changed the layout, my editing got messed up too somehow, just something to keep an eye on. I'm going to try screen recording future videos and uploading that instead, in the future.
I have a ??,, can a AODE transmission work with a 351 Windsor? I have a 302 engine in my truck but would like to swap it to a 351,I that possible? Thanks in advance
Yea it should work
Thanks
Still waiting for the 351m build