right... like every time i see/read things that are used to be said as "thought deeply" and its cool because its earnest, its just now labeled as cringe or something derogatory. like, if someone put effort unto something you would be labeled negatively for it and be called derogatory terms. thats why i tend to stay in communities with a more mature audience like resonant arc's
Gotta love the post 90's world we live in where sarcasm and irony are the default state. It's long lost its charm and is becoming quite troublesome in my earnest opinion.
I am so, so sick of stories trying to break the 4th wall and just breaking the immersion and suspension of disbelief instead. the plague of insincerity of media is so baffling to me. Why did they go to all the effort to make a well-playing, beautiful game and then absolutely ruin the experience with some of the worst writing I have ever seen. All the characters sound the same, there's no effort to diversify their voice. The prose is bland and there are genuine errors like verb tenses being mixed between lines. Sea of Stars is more of an homage to Joss Whedon than anything else.
It’s one of my favorite games in years, let alone this year…I got the physical copy coming in a few months and I know I’m going to play it again then, and probably a few times after that as well…it’s one of those games where you will keep the console (Switch in my case) just so you know you can play it again when you want to.
@@What_In_This_World I bought the game based on your recommendation, and I just finished it last night with the true ending. I just want to say thank you for guiding me toward having that experience. I'll never use the words "borrowed time" the same way again.
Great review. My theory is that a lot of these great game design elements which had evolved up to that point, were thrown out the window as soon as 3D became available in the PS1/N64 generation. The promise of 3D was so great that devs weren't interested in what they could do with great 2D anymore. I agree with you, I think that a lot of great game design lessons were tossed out unnecessarily. They have more life in them.
they weren't immediately. FFVII-IX are great examples and Resonant Arch even does a quick reference to it when mentioning "games can still have this even on 3D" - applying to static camera angles and BGs for FFVII specifically on the edit, but most other things he mentions, like fully controllable airships and explorable maps, the tricky dungeons... they're all still on the numbered FFs up until 10, which DID shift it up but still managed to succeed in being a great game for OTHER reasons. It went downhill as the industry shifted later in the 2000's. For example, to me, the greatest game story EVER made in my eyes - the Xeno series - still has its best "story bundle" (Xenosaga) stuck in this format, where the PS2 devs needed to make a decision between budgeting for amazing level design, or for a more graphical story, where the later was more apt for the technology that Sony and publishers wanted to display on the consoles of that generation. I do not blame Takahashi/Monolithsoft/Bamco for the choice as it was the right one for the amazing story, but it makes these games an absolute drag gameplay and pacing wise to replay TODAY, and now even an eyesore because early 3D has NOT aged well while 8 and 16bit sprites are making a nice return to form and still look amazing. Off-topic: This is why I literally cannot wait for Monolithsoft to announce if their next project is the awaited remasters of Xenosaga, Xenoblade X, or even Xenogears (although the later is unlikely since many people believe Xenoblade Chronicles 1-3 are, in general, a rewriting of Xenogears on the original Perfect Works timeline, but that's a topic for another place...)
Funny enough, this game is actually 3D rendered, which is how they made all the shadows and light work the way they did, the graphics are immensely impressive when you look into how they made it happen. It’s not your normal pixel art style, it’s amazing.
@JB-mm5ff I wouldn't say RPGs of that era were bad, just scarce. The few we got were pretty sick. Paper Mario Thousand Year Door, Lost Odyssey, Xenoblade, Pandora's Tower, Mega Man Battle Network, Dragon Quest remakes, and the Fire Emblem Ike duology are all pretty beloved. It was also a good time for Western style RPGs like Fallout, Elder Scrolls, Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Far Cry, and Dragon's Dogma late into that generation.
Nothing to really add here - I'm 100% in the same boat as you. Same thoughts on the story and dialogue. Same thoughts on my overall enjoyment of the game nonetheless, and how appreciative I am that Sabotage gave us this at all. I've missed dungeon design so much. These weren't super complex or anything, but they don't need to be to feel *massively* different from FF16 hallway simulator "dungeons" we've been getting for so long. Even just having different aesthetics in the dungeons here was such a relief. Definitely channeled some of Golden Sun here, and I was all for it. And of course, same thoughts on the music. What a fantastic soundtrack we got! Thanks for the video and your thoughts!
Agreed about the dungeons/puzzles. They are fun to explore and do while not being overly complex. They just deliver the goods and make progression feel good. With the exception of one the end game puzzles with the three patterns on the walls, that one can unalive itself in Hell.
I basically agree with all of your points. However I'd like to highlight how good the level design in this game is. This game honestly has some of my favorite levels in any rpg I've played, they're so creatively constructed. The only level design I have liked on the same level as this one in recent memory was Crosscode (another great game!)
@@KingBanks18 yeap but he focused on the town of Brisk, because it's a highlight. I actually do not fully agree with the level design being top-notch, I think it's nearly there. There are dungeons that are an ABSOLUTE joy like the "sea tower" or the "spike island" (real names fail me), but others are very simplistic linear paths or VERY simple puzzles like the factory, and even the very unorthodox (to the rest of the game) desert with the "repeating same area with a twist" could have been better implemented, as this is a common trope. But I can see what they went with and I think Resonant Arch put it great in that they distilled the best of the known tropes, given the probably tight budget. and used them to great effect. The great mix of dungeon types and intricacy levels actually makes me look forward to the next one, as I am on the last stretch of this amazing game
Eh, as beautiful as it is my primary interest in any game but _especially_ in an RPG is story. I’ll take a great story with janky gameplay over interesting gameplay on a poor plot any day of the week.
I wouldn’t say the story is awful it’s more in the realm of campy. It doesn’t have an unnecessary multiverse for example, or weird ghosts. I played ff6 again recently the main thing I would’ve loved to see more of would be the stuff like when Locke and Edgar geek about the magic half way through a fight. That was outstanding coding.
I do not think the story is poor or bad by any means. Did you enjoy the story of JRPGs like FF4, FF5, Lufia or Golden Sun? This goes into the same direction imo. It's definitely not its major strenght but it works in favor of the gameplay and feeling of the game.
Great Review, Mike. Regarding your last point about wanting a more serious story in a game like this, I highly recommend Chained Echoes. The writing of that game is not a masterpiece or anything, but it scratches that classic JRPG itch, has a unique combat system, and a more serious story. Though it may have the opposite problem with the story not having enough humor for some. I really enjoyed it, one of the best JRPGs I've played in quite a while.
@@mikev8746 On the visual I agree SoS is clearly the better of the 2, on the gameplay hell no I enjoyed SoS to but I honnestly think Chained Echoes blows it out of the water, main issue with Sea of Stars being a lack of variety that makes the game quite redundant when you're in the late game, and you're still using the exact same abilities than the one you had at the beginning of the game, and also it lacks RPG element that could make it more strategic, like there is no statut effects in SoS, no debuffs, no buffs outside of Valere's Shield, your character has no way to change their elemental resistance, and the equipment system is litteraly the same thing as FFXVI weapons and armors are nothing more than Stat Stick, there's nothing behind just which equipment as the biggest number, only accessories carry side effect, and finally there is no character customization beyond the small stat bonus on LVUP you get SoS was extremely disappointing on that part. Chained Echoes has an overall more strategic and challenging battle system you had way more options in Chained Echoes, much more strategic possibilies with all the statut effect, buffs and debuffs (which actually works even on bosses), and between the Grimoire system, crystal system (that wasn't great on release but has been improve since through update), Class Emblem...etc.... there is much more customization in Chained Echoes, not mentionning the Overdrive gauge to manage, and altough the actual exploration is more fun in SoS, the exploration felt more rewarding in Chained Echoes through the Board system, the sidequest that were much more impactfull and relevant to the world building that in SoS, and scatter throughout the game rather than all sidequests being bloated at the end of the game. And on the story same thing I think Chained Echoes just blows SoS even harder on that front than on the gameplay, SoS's first 10-15 hours were extremely lacking to me on that department, I honnestly didn't care for the story until that point, Chained Echoes had me hooked almost right from the get go and never lose my interest even once during the 50 hours it tooks me to complete the story, the narrative and pacing were top notch as far as I'm concern, altough both end up with a somewhat underwhelming ending that is begging for a sequel or added contents.
Oh man, I completely diasgree. Chained Echoes to me, was "jrpg reference" the game. Like character portraits resembling characters from other jrpgs. One character looks so much like Beatrix in ff9, another one looks like a judge from ff12. Story beats are taken from other jrpgs such as acquiring an army like suikoden, a generational past like xenogears, mechs like xenogears, and the "passing of the torch" segment in vagrant story (and prior to that part, the level design had hallways that were straight up ripped from vagrant story with the underground paths with lamps illuminated in blue). I understand that chained echoes can be seen as "celibration" of the genre, But to me, because it's so reliant on other media, it completely lacks an identity. The combat is good, but as someone who has played a lot of jrpgs, it was shocking how much was borrowed. Throwing good ideas from other games and putting it in a blender doesn't always create a masterpiece and I really feel that was the approach in that title. Anyway, I'm expressing this respectfully. No shade at you if you liked it.
@@cat-pat8310 JRPG reference - The Game more aptly applies to Undertale/Deltarune (and Mother/Earthbound before it) and oddly, while playing SoS, Undertale was my first or second thought about the vibe. But both games are absolutely self-aware of this (even if Undertale makes it playfully, while SoS makes it slightly more serious and sans-the-4th-wall-breaking, more akin to Mother). I can't comment much on Chained Echoes yet as I have to play over 5h of it, but I was enjoying it, even if obviously, a one-man-game like CE has issues beating a larger, yet still Indie team like SoS's. I do plan to go back to it because it was giving me more of an FFI-VI vibe than I think SoS has given me. SoS is clearly more Chrono Trigger than FF and it shows, and that doesn't need t be a bad thing for either game really.
The reason this style fell out of fashion is because a lot of loud critics with short sight and a lot reach in the late 90s (and weirdly vitriolic 00s) decided they thought it was old and dated and bad, and the whatever-was-new-and-trendy was obviously objectively better. And a lot of creatives and their bosses took this to heart as representative of what all audiences must feel, despite that definitely not being the case. Thankfully, we're finally starting to walk back all the damage done, and hopefully more games in this style can continue to thrive
The characters really annoyed the ever loving shit outta me. If you bring up tropes and fourth wall breaks as cringey tropes AND THEN PROCEED TO DO THE EXACT THING YOU JOKED ABOUT, IT STILL IS CRINGEY AND TROPEY
Adult life pulled me from games, but i was constantly curious what you guys have been playing and missing the amazing dicussions of the games I love so much. Sea of Stars is another game for my backlog to play when i finally get the chance. Just wanted to say I miss you guys... hopefully I can be here to watch Xenoblade 3 discussion. You guys rock!
Just finished this today, I enjoyed it alot but Chained Echoes might scratch the itch a little more if you're looking for something with more bite to the story.
@@VariousMethod5 I'd say about 3% have the same opinion, both that they didn't like the story and the ending was awful. Themes I'm not sure, but probably something generic like learning to forgive yourself and others.
Yeah, Chained Echoes' story wasn't perfect, or anything, (it simultaneously tried to feel too complex, while ultimately being pretty simple, and some of the late game twists weren't foreshadowed effectively enough) but it absolutely seems to address all of his problems with the story; it pays reverence to its forebears and is occasionally a bit silly, but without sacrificing verisimilitude, plus there's plenty of interpersonal drama and very interesting villains. It also does all the things Sea of Stars does with its combat that he liked, minus the timed attacks. It seems to me like it's literally the game he was asking for in the outro.
I think the story fits the feel of this being a lost SNES rpg and works well enough. It's mainly the way this game reminded me of Golden Sun fused with Beyond Oasis that gives me that feeling that's the reason I haven't retired from gaming after 40 years. Good stuff. Playing Starfield, Sea of Stars, Persona V and Like a Dragon currently. I REALLY want to play FF. 16 but no PS. V. I'm very happy I have what I do have tho. Great review!
The points of interest on the map the way it’s puzzles challenge but resolve quickly. I’m so addicted to it so far. All we need now is a game like this with an all time great scenario. The scenario is everything
I thought of you man when playing this game. I remember listening to the Chrono Trigger review many years ago. And how it resonated so strongly with me as to my own personal experience with it playing it as a kid. Both on a personal note and a game design one. And I remember how you expressed many times over how much of a shame it was that they didn't make games like this anymore. Now I personally am a bit easier at moving past that sort of thing even though I also miss it. But I couldn't help but think for a brief moment how elated you were playing the game yourself. Even if it's not a perfect one. It's a great thing to still have come out in this day and age.
That short clip of FF16 really sums up what is wrong with that game. Whatever that magic is that classic FF used to have, it's completely gone now and has been for years. FF16 is just soulless.
I enjoyed this game to the point where I did just about everything possible (those who know about the flimsy hammers know the extent to which I mean this). It's hard to say I didn't enjoy my time with the game by that metric, and the fantastical environments, visual prowess, and core combat mechanics really speak to that. But I have a lot of criticisms that don't leave me head over heals upon reflection. The writing quality is a big one that's been discussed to death and my take isn't really all that different. When Garl-- a character who is still pretty cookie cutter (heh)-- was the clear standout of the playable cast for me, it's not really a compliment. I'm even finding the writing of the new characters in the First Soldier campaign of Ever Crisis more engaging. It's surprising to me because The Messenger actually has a fantastic, colorful authorial voice. And it's not as if many SNES JRPG English translations were masterpieces... but they had character and often a je ne sais quoi about them. For example, Chrono Trigger's Woolsey translation has plenty of grammatical errors (looking at you, Frog) but the characters have layers so it didn't matter. You basically know everything there is to know about any character on an emotional level within a minute of meeting them a few exceptions. This is just too important to my continued adoration of a JRPG after playing it to ignore for me... there are games that have played far worse but stuck with me much longer because the characters were even remotely memorable. And this is before touching on the ham-fisted and flat dialogue, and how the story being underwritten results in major plot points that are nonsensical, and a general lack of thematic depth. Honestly though, I'm also not big on the music. The few standout tracks were great and most of the time the music fit the environment/mood well, but beyond that they either didn't stand the test of repetition or just felt like inferior works (I know holding Mitsuda to his Chrono Trigger/Xenoblade standard may be unfair but I can't help it). I don't want to rag on it too much other than to say I don't necessarily think it's worthy of the high praise I've seen. It's usually just fine (again, with some highlights). Also, combat did start to grate of me with the very limited moveset of the characters. The game makes up for this in enemy design that requires different approaches and otherwise it does just about everything right, but there's only so many times I can Moonerang or hold for a sun ball before it stops being novel. Also, I found the combat surprisingly easy because of the lack of limitation on swapping out characters... theoretically I actually love this mechanic but I rarely felt in danger due to it. The only times I recall dying were to a few standard encounters that caught me off guard. I also say I'm "surprised" at how easy I found it as the demo was pretty tough to me. I'd also note that the equipment customization was a bit lackluster and you never really felt the power of most upgrades, particularly weapons (the only weapons I recall having any sort of special properties were the ones in the undead area). But all this said, fun combat overall and like Mike it's exactly the design philosophy I want to see return. This sated me. There are also some quality of life issues. Until the very late game, moving around the map is a slog, particularly if you need to get somewhere in the middle of an island. Running back through zones only to get to the area you're looking for to do one small thing was extremely tedious. There needed to be a system to circumvent this. I'd also say that the inability to exit zones at any time caused a similar tedium when the thing you needed to backtrack to was smack in the middle but I could probably live more if they made navigating the map more palatable earlier in the game. (Yes, I understand the narrative/emotional heft of the freedom to do so later, but I think that mechanic allows enough new exploration on its own to still be impactful.) I put over 40 hours into this game so clearly I did enjoy it. Really should compliment how tactile navigating the world is, and the clear love and care that the team had for creating it. But all the big and little quibbles I have amounted to something that never quite felt like the genuine article.
Easily one of my favorite games ever. It's unfortunate that the writing doesn't give us much beyond surface level, but it didn't take away from my enjoying it. Finished up last weekend, ramping up to go again and clear everything!
Just finished last night. I haven’t enjoyed a game this much since before this generation started. My only real gripe is how it forces you to get the “bad” ending before reloading your save, doing tedious side stuff, and getting the good ending, which I doubt most players will even do.
I agree about the tone of the story, but I loved how they used Teaks at the camp to introduce lore pieces that would later come up in the narrative. Any thoughts on how that compares to the FF XVI ATL approach?
Heavily agree on the exploration and puzzles. Especially with the puzzles, it gives just enough that it isn't too simple nor too complex that it feels engaging and it also serves as nice variety to mix things up. I also wish more turn-based / command based games would include action commands. As it make this style of combat feel responsive and impactful which I feel is something that's generally lacking in most turn-based games.
Everyone complains about the Buffy kind of dialogue now, but shows like that and Firefly were heavily praised at the time. It seems like 5e issue is execution more so than the actual format of dialogue.
Totally agree with your assessment Mike, including the story criticism. Overall I’m just pumped to see games like this being developed and selling well. It bodes well for the future of classic style RPGs
I’ve never clicked a video so fast in my life. I’m about six hours into the game and really enjoy it. I agree with everything that you’ve said on your review. The tone, charm, combat, music et cetera are all fantastic. The game does make me smile and laugh, but I do wish it had a bit more of the serious tone of something like Final Fantasy 6 as well.
I'm nearing the end of this game and I've REALLY enjoyed my time with it. I kind of don't want it to end. One thing though, the Wheels minigame. I'm either terrible at it or have terrible luck with the spins because I haven't won a single match.
About Wheels, I feel like it's the former. The first few matches I couldn't win consistently, but after those first 3 or 4 losses I didn't lose a single game. For me it mostly just came down to using the Mage, and someone to counter their main damage dealer on the other side. For example, if they had a Warrior, I used the Engineer (Warrior losses to a single layer of wall); if the had the Assassin, I used the Priest (Assassin bypasses the wall, so I healed instead).
It's entirely possible you skipped some champions on your way, because they _do not_ scale to your board level/available pieces. I 100% fought them in the wrong order and suffered for it, hammering my head against a hard one until I lucked out and then backtracking to the ones i hadn't found and completely destroying them.
Mike, thanks so much for continuing to advocate for this style of game, and I 100% agree that there is nothing “antiquated” at all about it. Sea of Stars is a perfect case of a game that trims the fat of this genre and shows how a modern RPG should play. There is still plenty of space to be explored here, and I hope we keep seeing efforts like this prove that.
More than any genre I think turn based RPGs need the right amount of difficulty. Too easy and like you said, there’s no impetus to learn the really well designed systems put in place. Too hard, and it turns into a grind fest, which can also become boring and repetitive. Just right, means you explore and master the systems, feel the adrenaline of overcoming a challenge, but never feel stuck.
Of all the JRPGs I've played, Chrono Trigger and Wild Arms probably have the most balanced difficulty. I never needed to grind in either game, and amazingly the challenge still felt compelling. I have still died in both games, but it was always doable. I just needed to adjust my strategy and/or improve my execution.
I was really looking forward to this video, and I tend to agree with your viewpoints on this one, Mike. I think that some of the main characters definitely could have used more personality and depth. They had their stakes in the story, but not enough personal reasons to fight other than, "It's the right thing to do." That's my quick take on it, anyway. That said, I still thoroughly enjoyed the story. The games that Sabotage has made up to this point seem to be more concerned with lore, history, and the overall world, and I think that's still a good way to tell a good story if done correctly. Some individual moments in SoS totally had me on the edge of my seat, too. I think the story was definitely worth telling at the end of the day. And the rest of the game is pitch-perfect, obviously. Definitely my personal game of the year.
Great job on the review 👏🏾 I love the points you brought up and your approach to judging it’s merits. I honestly go to you before I look at corporate reviewers because of the sincerity and focus on aspects left unspoken. Thank you
So we have a name for it now - "Whedon Speech". Thank you Mike, you gave my enemy an identity. Now I have a target... Glad to hear it doesn't just bug me though, words struggle to convey how much I loathe this style. I always just referred to it as "Avengers 'awkward' humour"
I definitely love the exploration and world design and GORGEOUS look of this game. However I have to say the combat system fell very flat for me. There wasn't much of a rewarding progression system compared to SNES JRPGs, so I wasn't really looking forward to battles as much as I wish I could have. I also didn't like the combo point system as most of the game you never had enough points to use any combos in regular battles. Still a charming and well designed game and I enjoyed it overall. Excellent review Mike, I agree that it brought back a lot of the magic of those 90s era RPGs and each screen you explore you can tell how much care the developers put into everything.
Exactly how I feel in regards to combat. You have a such small movelist. You go hours with barely any mana, let alone moves. Then you hardly get any use of the combo system. Basic implementation of QTE from Mario rpg games. Combat was lacking and limited.
I think an important thing to note about this games story is that it’s clearly written for a younger audience to appreciate SNES era JRPGs. It’s not aimed at the Xenogears or FF7 crowd, it’s an entry point to a bygone era for people who aren’t old enough to know any better. When judged from that perspective, the story while not perfect, is more than serviceable, while still managing to pull off a few surprising subversions. The fact that it manages to consolidate from so many different beloved snes era JRPGs and trim so much fat is commendable.
Absolutely 100% agree with everything said. Sea of Stars is beautiful, it is fun, it is well-made, if only they could have taken the same care applied everywhere else to the story. And it isn't like the story is bad or anything, it is just very average. Garl is the best though, just really love that guy. I literally just beat Sea of Stars today and I'm planning on getting the true ending before the week is over. The comment about missing these kinds of games hits hard though. It hurts, too. I think I just want more of these experiences to lose myself in and I can't keep going back to the classics. Chained Echoes is another recent hit that I loved. It isn't quite on the same level as Sea of Stars but I think they could have learned from one another, as well.
Great review! I haven't started Sea of Stars yet, but the Messenger writing rubbed me the wrong way for the same reasons you stated here. I hope it doesn't bug me too much, because the game looks perfect, otherwise
I can't wait to play this game. I preordered it digitally and finished The Messenger shortly before it released. Sabotage has impressed me with their passion and design talent. Edit: So I'm about 5 hours into the game now and yeah, the combat is every bit as good as this video states. Something cool that he didn't mention is how item management has been designed. You can only have 10 restorative items at any given time. Normally, this would be a frustrating limitation, but in Sea of Stars, restoration is possible via other means that have nothing to do with items. You can restore MP just by doing normal attacks, and Healing skills are not uncommon. So instead of being obligatory "I must keep these ethers because I am using magic all the time," it feels like there is more decision making involved in items. What do I need to get through the next session? What do I expect to be using during the boss fight? How necessary is it to have MP restores in a cinch? The battles are incredibly well balanced, and being able to cook at any rest stop means you are only in short supply of restores if you are truly struggling, which hasn't happened to me yet. The most I've had to use in any given stretch is 3 or 4, and it feels appropriately challenging.
The combat is good, but gets pretty boring the longer you go for me at least. The options you have for each character is very limited, and I'm not sure if i did something OP, but i found that often i could just spam the fire ball with the male character (what ever his name was) and that's almost all i needed. While there are some differences there with combo moves (not something i had to use outside of boss fights), your spells, normal attacks, and normal attacks being enhanced by those orbs, it still got boring for me pretty fast.
Thanks for the review! I plan on picking this one up eventually; there are so many big releases this year. The 16-bit graphics with the retro sound fonts hit a special spot for me.
Great review, looking forward to trying this when I'm done with BG3. I feel the same as you - that there's so much room for RPGs made in 'older formats' (like the examples at 6:14 ) to explore creatively, and still impress today. I personally feel like the fixed camera view with pre-rendered backgrounds especially has gone far too unexplored. Just imagine what a game going with an art direction like FF9 would look like today, created with the technology we have now - it would be incredible! However (and maybe I'm just getting to bogged down in definition here) I'm not sure these type of games need a 'triple A' approach to come to fulfilment. Triple A seems to be about huge budgets and the highest quality graphics possible, so it's hard to imagine that even if a game like this was made with the greatest story, best art style and amazing gameplay would ever be labelled as 'triple A'. If what you actually meant by that was taking series that are typically triple A and making games like this with them though, then I 100% agree! For a while now, I've wished mainline FF would take an approach like Zelda has done in the past - making the huge, ambitious new console titles (BOTW / TOTK), but also keeping the older formula alive (a link between worlds).
Great review, you mentioned my top three rpgs of all time in succession, mario rpg, chrono trigger, and golden sun Lol! .. its making me think of a high budget cleverly dungeon design game and what comes to mind is that one game you did a video for with Landon.. Captain Toad for the WiiU! But i guess its not so recent anymore after all. Really thought you would play chained echoes first though, looked more like up your alley!
SoS dethroned Chrono Cross for my favorite combat system in the genre. While the base difficulty is a bit low once you figure out the value of all your non-damage options, a challenge run of this game with no positive relics or gold accessories, and Artful Gambit+Dubous Dare turned on, was by far the most fun I've ever had in any JRPG's combat. Turns it into a more tactical Dark Souls. Finally, a JRPG where skill/timing plays a huge role, and finally my decisions in combat matter a lot more than fiddling through 1000 options in complex but superfluous menus before the fight. I'm more critical of the writing than Mike is here, but everything else is stellar and redeems it completely, from music and visuals to the minigames and just plain moving around the maps. GOTY for me unless someone pulls off a miracle.
Just finished this yesterday. I had a great time with it and the only minor change I would make to the gameplay is that the fast travel command needs to be remapped to a different button... like i said it's very minor but can be annoying because its the same button as the regular command button. I agree with you story wise that it isn't an exceptional story being told but it's more than good enough and the game looks a plays great.
“I don’t understand why this particular style of rpg had to be lost in time.” Apologies if I miss the exact quote, but the answer is simple: greed. This framework of RPG doesn’t lend itself to DLC or loot boxes/game as a service. The ARPG approach capitalizes on social media and trophy hunting to compel players to buy loot boxes or obtain DLC in order to compete against their friends, even if just on a leaderboard. Easy games with easy win buttons and cinematic visuals (FF15 and FF16) generate and maintain endorphin release upon instant gratification. Old school RPGs and their Indie modern versions, such as Sea of Stars, require talking to NPCs and solving puzzles and engaging the brain. This isn’t even limited to RPGs. One of the complaints I see constantly for the new MK1 is they don’t provide a tutorial in the campaign when you get a new character. Most gamers who started after the mid-point of the PS2 era have different priorities with their gaming time, such that they want tutorials and waypoints as opposed to gaining their enjoyment from the adventure and figuring things out.
So there's plenty of truth in what you say. There's also the perspective that many companies are trying to appeal to the western audiences though, and modern western audience apparently doesn't jive that well with turn based rpgs nowadays. Persona series for example took quite a while for western audiences to really love it, and hashino katsura did say on record that the later entries tried to cater heavily to western market with narrative and theme. Then you look at dragonquest, where numbers show its more popular in the east than the west. why? well it historically didnt cater too much to the western audiences. this is also why square is going more action with final fantasy lately, as they feel western audiences jive more with action oriented games than turn based. I recall square was surprised that bravely default (DS turn based rpg) sold quite well. Well yeah, it sold well because it was a good game. This perspective is pretty common with these companies. In the end, they need to make money. Thats fine, gotta get paid for the work you put in. And most feel the big bucks are in the western audience. Some get it right in what people want, some dont. As such, they struggle to figure out what themes to work with, or changing the genre entirely. I don't know if it's purely corporate greed, more as some struggle on figuring out what western audiences really want, especially if a company historically made games with eastern tastes. Yoko Taro made the decision to make main protagonist for Nier Gestalt a father instead of an older brother specifically to appeal to the west, and that was a great call. Vaan from ff12 though reportedly was to appeal to japanese gamers (specifically teenagers) and...most of the west hate vaan. Again, they get it right or they get it wrong. But yeah, it is interesting.
One of the main problems with the combat is the lack of progression with the skills. You have Sunball at level 1 and you still use the same identical move in the end game. It doesn't get stronger, change or anything.
I actually saw this as a positive. Instead of having you just replacing your basic skills with shinier skills (which makes you just stop using skills early on), the skills you have are useful throughout the entire game.
@@joshuadillon7134 I think the point more so is to get options rather than a new stronger version. Although I'm not opposed to a stronger one. It usually means that it cost more, and sometimes you wanna save the stronger ones (and MP of course) for the bigger fight while you can save MP while using a weaker version.
@uberpwnage2.0 That's actually one of the things they were trying to subvert is the "I can't use my skills until the big boss" shenanigans. You spend MP to generate combo points to use combo moves that generate your ultimate bar to let you use ultimate skills. Sure, they could have given each character 20 skills, but with the limited elements and lock system, what ends up eventually happening is that everyone gets a "This skill breaks everything and has every element and we had to inflate your MP number through the moon and we've now completely negated the entire purpose of our combat system so that you can feel ultra powerful since you spent 140 hours grinding to level 300 just to then call the game too easy." I'd personally much prefer skills that serve a purpose versus having to scroll all the way to the bottom because the first 30 of them I learned have no point anymore.
I dont think people are asking for 20 skills, so no need to be hyperbole. Often i just had to spam the fireball and my normal attacks to get through encounters and it got boring pretty fast. I can only speak for myself but 2-3 more skills per character would've been enough. @@joshuadillon7134
I’m curious to see how you feel when you finish it. Playing the game is great and the majority of the tone kind of misses for me, but when it chooses to get serious some beats really land
Given what i've seen of the writing at 4 hours in, i just cannot fathom that being true. It genuinely reads like the writer has never studied writing before, or are going out of their way to avoid observing simple things like character voice because they think it's funny or something. It feels insincere and the writer doesn't seem to care (because they left a PILE of errors in it) so why should i?
@@bartandaelus359yeah, they paired some really nice gameplay with a downright embarrassing story/writing. I felt Chained Echoes was a more focused experience and much more enjoyable for me.
I'm roundly disgusted how the video game industry abandons genres that people would shovel money out for. JRP (like this) tactical games (FF tactics), RTS's, even side scrollers like 2d mario were largely dumped for decades at a time.
The game is definitely good. but I think the internet got a bit hyperbolic with alot of the talk about the game. its not an instant classic or all time great imo. Its a solid game, that proves there is still a market for this type of thing. Outside of how the game looks, there is nothing special to it. The characters, story, and writing are all pretty average at best. Id argue the writing is downright simple and borderline bad even. The combat is fun, but timing hits isnt anything new or done particularly well. its functional to keep you engaged, I guess? I never had a problem with that in turn based games. I do like the puzzle aspect of breaking down enemy barrier/casts , especially on bosses, with different types of abilities. That was far more interesting to me than timed button presses. Game is fun and worth a play, especially if you have game pass since its on there. But its not this transformative experience ive seen some youtubers and reviews go on about. Appreciate the review!
I also love the cutscenes are animations above the graphical level of the game and there’s very few of them. That difference really means they’re just there for a moment to elevate things for a second or two
All your comments about wishing this general approach to game design still existed makes me really want to recommend Octopath Traveler II to you. I think you’ll find it a far more significant and successful approach to the ideas that Sea of Stars tries to play with.
While I celebrate the return of this general framework of game, and appreciate the phenomenally detailed art that went into Sea of Stars, the tedious combat and vacuous writing represented such a tragic negligence of duty from the persons responsible that it rendered the game monotonous and deeply disappointing. I only hope its success teaches the lesson that this kind of game is highly desired, and not that it's permissible to invest so little expertise into story and battle design.
Sea of stars and Chained echos pretty much addressed the biggest issues i have been having with the genre in a very long time and its quite baffling that indie developers did a much better job evolving the genre than even vets of the genre. For me what seperates those two games from the rest of the genre are few things like Engaging Exploration, excellent Dungeon design, side quests that dont feel like an afterthought and a little to no empty content to drag out the game, thats what the genre really needs, its not insane graphics or mature storytelling that tries way too hard to be a movie, its these small things are the main things that make up an overall great jrpg experience.
Glad you covered this game. My GOTY so far (even tho BG3 is objectively better... I had more fun in Sea of Stars). I think it's the most beautiful game I've ever played, and the music... coral cascades and brisk are amazing
Dunno... I feel this writing style is something I'd love to see more of. Many games these days feel overly serious in an attempt to appeal to a more mature audience, and I always get the feeling that people lost the ability to enjoy a good mix of comedic and serious storytelling. To me it never undermined the interpersonal drama or seriousness of the story, but contrasted it in a way that enhanced the overall experience and made the more dramatic parts hit even harder. Apart from that note, I completely agree with the rest.
TBH, I found the 4th wall breaking charmingly funny. I don’t mind it not being overly serious as my recently played games have been entirely serious, so it’s a nice break. I really enjoy the art here and agree with you that it’s damn near perfect for this medium. The dungeon designs are some of the best and combat is actually more enjoyable than FF16 was. I’m happy this game has done so well, as I believe it will inspire more to do the same. AAA games, atm, just don’t mean a whole lot to me, so having this indie game be this good inspires.
Sea if Stars is on my wishlist and to me, it looks like one of the best indie rpgs out there, but my biggest complaint with indie rpgs is that the stories are often very lackluster. The devs always seem to focus more on graphics, battle mechanics and exploration, but honestly, that's not what I play rpgs for. If you're gonna bother to make an rpg, you might as well make a Xenogears, in my opinion.
Haven't played this yet, but my expectations are high. Looks and sounds excellent. I'm totally with you on the point that this style/format of JRPG is needed more today. My recent related faves are Octopath and Bravely Default II. More like these please.
I enjoyed it so much and planning to do the new game+. I agree with your opinion about the story. If only it made me care more about the characters it would be perfect.
After watching the Escapist documentary, I think I have a little bit more of an understanding of why the story feels lackluster. Sabotage's goal with Sea of Stars was to recreate the fond memory of what JRPG's were like. It sounds like to me there was never a strong vision for the story they wanted to tell with this game; no thematic through-lines or ideas they wanted to explore. I think the story could have been anything as long as it resembled a 90's JRPG. Keep in mind this is mostly conjecture, as they don't talk about the story much at all in the documentary. Maybe to avoid spoilers, maybe because the story was never a core tenet of production in the first place.
Now that Square has decided the Final Fantasy series jumped the shark to Dark Soul/DMC, I'm so glad indie devs will pick up the JRPG torch and run with it.
I have absolutely loved this game and I am definitely not the "target" audience. I do not enjoy turn based games at all. Which I realize is my fault and my loss, but they've always just been too much for my dumb brain. The only Final Fantasy game I've ever played was FF7: Remake. I've always wanted to play FF7 (Mike is definitely a huge influence for that) but the turn based aspect kept me from enjoying what I know is a truly incredible experience. Last turn based game I played was Pokemon Blue on my original Gameboy. I took a chance on this game purely because of how much I loved The Messenger and I'm so glad I did. The Artifacts in the game absolutely help make the game way more approachable and less overwhelming. This is an entire genre I had written off as "not for me" and I'm so glad to be proven wrong.
If you like this, I think you would also appreciate Chrono Trigger. It also has a very simple battle system with quite a bit of depth hidden in it. You have standard attack, Tech, and item. That's it. But the fun comes from when characters can combine their Techniques to make something that either satisfies a particular niche or is just generally very useful. Your single person heal can be a full party heal. Your highly damaging attack can be given an elemental quality. Your single-target sword strike can hit two or more targets. Part of this also comes from how it utilizes the ATB gauge seen in classic Final Fantasy, but does more with it that pretty much any other game. Combo Techs require all participating members to have a full gauge, so it adds a good risk/reward element. Furthermore, the enemies actually move on the battlefield during combat, so you can time your attacks carefully to hit more enemies with the AOE attacks. And due to how these skills are acquired and used throughout the game, no character is ever worthless, and you want to have all of them in your party at some point just to see what's possible. I beat the game twice with radically different party compositions and felt like they were just as viable as each other, just with a different set of strengths and weaknesses. And again, all of this depth comes from combat that only has 3 options. There really isn't any other game that can master simplicity to such a degree. It's never overwhelming or disengaging.
@@jacobmonks3722 thank you for the recommendation! I've heard of Chrono Trigger and (like the FF games) I know it is supposed to be an amazing experience. I will definitely give it a try after this. I also plan on trying Mario RPG since I know it was a big influence on this game as well.
I absolutely adore Sea of Stars! I'm on my 3rd playthrough at the moment. I can't wait to see what Sabatage does with the DLC. Game of the Year 2023 (yeah, I had more fun with this game than I did FF16, but I do love FF16)!
While I bought the game in order to classical jRPGs, I havent started playing since I restarted my FFX playthough. (Great podcats on FFX!) It's next on my list:-)
To your comment about the industry being wrong to move away from this kind of game: while I agree in a sense, I do think there was a period of time where the cost to create games of this scope outweighed the popularity (at least to the people funding them). More people are playing games than ever, and many of the people who are enjoying this game got into retro RPGs through things like RUclips and emulation. Huge detailed photoreal worlds may be getting more expensive to make, but the tools to make games in general are more accessible than ever. I know they're not exactly the same, but Chrono Trigger had about 50 people working on it, while Sea of Stars had about half that. So I think the time is just right, where people who miss these games have the ability to make them. Regardless, I love it!
Playing right now on Game Pass, so glad I got to experience this great little RPG. Combat is engaging, puzzles totally remind me of GS, and even if the story and tropes fall flat at least it’s always gorgeous to look at-treat it like a bedtime story. Absolutely need more games like this. What would you recommend playing next?
My feelings on the story ended up changing a lot once I got to the latter bits of the game, to be honest. It's nothing to write home about, but it ditches a lot of the tongue in cheek "aren't these RPG tropes silly?" thing in favor of just telling a charming, simple story, which is something I _really_ enjoy. I really like the worldbuilding, it's given me a bunch of interesting ideas to take from! Needless to say, everything else about the game is spectacular. The difficulty felt really good, none of the bosses felt like they were there to stretch my playtime, and I suspect if I try to play with some of the Difficulty Modifiers turned up, this game will thoroughly kick my ass.
Got this game 2 days ago absolutely love it... haven't picked up my switch in a year and now I can't set my switch down haha love it love it love it thanks sea of stars
I believe that the cause that we are not getting JRPG formula in Triple A games is that these kind of games do not appeal to a massive playerbase to justify a big money investment in the eyes of the investors
Valere and Zale were weak protags and i actually found Garl pretty one note despite being the "charming" one (still better than the blank slate main two) but I love Serai and Re'shan and feel like they really push the story going forward. Teaks and the side characters are wonderful too!! i'm at the end (game told me hey here's the final thing, feel free to do it whenever) and yeah story/chars start kinda weak but I think Serai and beyond just starts this continuous uphill climb. it still suffers because of what i've mentioned but i found myself very invested in the story as a whole the more i played. considering you get Serai pretty early on, id call that a win.
VAGUE spoilers learning more about Erlina and Brugraves and then meeting the actual antagonist were very powerful moments imo, especially the latter. one of the stronger main antagonists of this gen based on his introduction alone.
also, i feel like the soundtrack was good/pleasant until you get to Glacial Peak. that to the end???? bangerz. straight bangerz. it's about mid game???
The review is spot on Haven a ton of fun with this game. I think its the best pixel art Ive ever seen, mayve besides the hd2d games like Octo and the upcoming Replaced. It helps that Chrono Trigger is my all time favorite. SoS definitely doesnt feel as grand and epic, but still... even a 80% CT I'll take any day of the week over a huge and boring triple A with generic art.
I had the same reaction to the story; there’s this seemingly bizarre shame in being earnest nowadays and characterization/story suffers because of it.
You just put my thoughts into more eloquent words- thank you!
Really well put. It rubs me the wrong way cause it can evoke that notion that 'fantasy is for kids' and has no capacity to be mature.
right... like every time i see/read things that are used to be said as "thought deeply" and its cool because its earnest, its just now labeled as cringe or something derogatory. like, if someone put effort unto something you would be labeled negatively for it and be called derogatory terms.
thats why i tend to stay in communities with a more mature audience like resonant arc's
Gotta love the post 90's world we live in where sarcasm and irony are the default state. It's long lost its charm and is becoming quite troublesome in my earnest opinion.
I am so, so sick of stories trying to break the 4th wall and just breaking the immersion and suspension of disbelief instead.
the plague of insincerity of media is so baffling to me. Why did they go to all the effort to make a well-playing, beautiful game and then absolutely ruin the experience with some of the worst writing I have ever seen. All the characters sound the same, there's no effort to diversify their voice. The prose is bland and there are genuine errors like verb tenses being mixed between lines. Sea of Stars is more of an homage to Joss Whedon than anything else.
If you liked that style, but want a more mature story, Chained echoes is a really good modern 16 bit style rpg.
chained echoes is far better than this
Chained echoes is so good! I overall enjoyed it more than sea of stars, but both were wonderful
I was going to say the same thing. Curious what he thinks of that game!
yeah chained echoes is just a better version of this type of game
I have not played Chained Echoes (yet), but I will say this game is a lot more visually appealing to me.
You re such a good reviewer! I love the podcast, but man, these shorter reviews from you are SO enjoyable and interesting.
After playing FF16, Starfield, and Baulders Gate 3. Sea of Stars is my favorite RPG of the year
That's high praise. I'll play the demo for sure.
It's my favorite game this year.
It’s one of my favorite games in years, let alone this year…I got the physical copy coming in a few months and I know I’m going to play it again then, and probably a few times after that as well…it’s one of those games where you will keep the console (Switch in my case) just so you know you can play it again when you want to.
@@What_In_This_World I bought the game based on your recommendation, and I just finished it last night with the true ending. I just want to say thank you for guiding me toward having that experience. I'll never use the words "borrowed time" the same way again.
Great review. My theory is that a lot of these great game design elements which had evolved up to that point, were thrown out the window as soon as 3D became available in the PS1/N64 generation. The promise of 3D was so great that devs weren't interested in what they could do with great 2D anymore. I agree with you, I think that a lot of great game design lessons were tossed out unnecessarily. They have more life in them.
they weren't immediately. FFVII-IX are great examples and Resonant Arch even does a quick reference to it when mentioning "games can still have this even on 3D" - applying to static camera angles and BGs for FFVII specifically on the edit, but most other things he mentions, like fully controllable airships and explorable maps, the tricky dungeons... they're all still on the numbered FFs up until 10, which DID shift it up but still managed to succeed in being a great game for OTHER reasons. It went downhill as the industry shifted later in the 2000's. For example, to me, the greatest game story EVER made in my eyes - the Xeno series - still has its best "story bundle" (Xenosaga) stuck in this format, where the PS2 devs needed to make a decision between budgeting for amazing level design, or for a more graphical story, where the later was more apt for the technology that Sony and publishers wanted to display on the consoles of that generation. I do not blame Takahashi/Monolithsoft/Bamco for the choice as it was the right one for the amazing story, but it makes these games an absolute drag gameplay and pacing wise to replay TODAY, and now even an eyesore because early 3D has NOT aged well while 8 and 16bit sprites are making a nice return to form and still look amazing.
Off-topic: This is why I literally cannot wait for Monolithsoft to announce if their next project is the awaited remasters of Xenosaga, Xenoblade X, or even Xenogears (although the later is unlikely since many people believe Xenoblade Chronicles 1-3 are, in general, a rewriting of Xenogears on the original Perfect Works timeline, but that's a topic for another place...)
Funny enough, this game is actually 3D rendered, which is how they made all the shadows and light work the way they did, the graphics are immensely impressive when you look into how they made it happen. It’s not your normal pixel art style, it’s amazing.
@JB-mm5ff I wouldn't say RPGs of that era were bad, just scarce. The few we got were pretty sick. Paper Mario Thousand Year Door, Lost Odyssey, Xenoblade, Pandora's Tower, Mega Man Battle Network, Dragon Quest remakes, and the Fire Emblem Ike duology are all pretty beloved.
It was also a good time for Western style RPGs like Fallout, Elder Scrolls, Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Far Cry, and Dragon's Dogma late into that generation.
I loved every minute of this one! Can’t explain the joy this game brought me. It’s not perfect, but man, it’s darn close IMO.
Nothing to really add here - I'm 100% in the same boat as you. Same thoughts on the story and dialogue. Same thoughts on my overall enjoyment of the game nonetheless, and how appreciative I am that Sabotage gave us this at all.
I've missed dungeon design so much. These weren't super complex or anything, but they don't need to be to feel *massively* different from FF16 hallway simulator "dungeons" we've been getting for so long. Even just having different aesthetics in the dungeons here was such a relief. Definitely channeled some of Golden Sun here, and I was all for it.
And of course, same thoughts on the music. What a fantastic soundtrack we got!
Thanks for the video and your thoughts!
Agreed about the dungeons/puzzles. They are fun to explore and do while not being overly complex. They just deliver the goods and make progression feel good. With the exception of one the end game puzzles with the three patterns on the walls, that one can unalive itself in Hell.
Im playing it now, and its one of my favorite games this year, and it reminded me how much I love turn base RPG games !!
I basically agree with all of your points. However I'd like to highlight how good the level design in this game is. This game honestly has some of my favorite levels in any rpg I've played, they're so creatively constructed. The only level design I have liked on the same level as this one in recent memory was Crosscode (another great game!)
100% the levels are so great!!
Agreed. I think the level and environment design is the single greatest thing about this game
He does highlight the level design
@@KingBanks18 yeap but he focused on the town of Brisk, because it's a highlight. I actually do not fully agree with the level design being top-notch, I think it's nearly there. There are dungeons that are an ABSOLUTE joy like the "sea tower" or the "spike island" (real names fail me), but others are very simplistic linear paths or VERY simple puzzles like the factory, and even the very unorthodox (to the rest of the game) desert with the "repeating same area with a twist" could have been better implemented, as this is a common trope. But I can see what they went with and I think Resonant Arch put it great in that they distilled the best of the known tropes, given the probably tight budget. and used them to great effect. The great mix of dungeon types and intricacy levels actually makes me look forward to the next one, as I am on the last stretch of this amazing game
yeah the levels are really something else
Eh, as beautiful as it is my primary interest in any game but _especially_ in an RPG is story. I’ll take a great story with janky gameplay over interesting gameplay on a poor plot any day of the week.
I wouldn’t say the story is awful it’s more in the realm of campy. It doesn’t have an unnecessary multiverse for example, or weird ghosts. I played ff6 again recently the main thing I would’ve loved to see more of would be the stuff like when Locke and Edgar geek about the magic half way through a fight. That was outstanding coding.
I do not think the story is poor or bad by any means. Did you enjoy the story of JRPGs like FF4, FF5, Lufia or Golden Sun? This goes into the same direction imo. It's definitely not its major strenght but it works in favor of the gameplay and feeling of the game.
@@claudio3431 yeah I agree with you it just isn’t terranigma ( I think some of use old heads have the highest standards these day)
For me it was a 10/10 game, I see the story style as a positive, because of Garl.
Same. The game is literally crapp without Garl. He's that important and lovable.
Great Review, Mike. Regarding your last point about wanting a more serious story in a game like this, I highly recommend Chained Echoes.
The writing of that game is not a masterpiece or anything, but it scratches that classic JRPG itch, has a unique combat system, and a more serious story. Though it may have the opposite problem with the story not having enough humor for some.
I really enjoyed it, one of the best JRPGs I've played in quite a while.
Its honestly very mid tier looking in the visual and gameplay department. Felt immensely messy compared to SoS.
@@mikev8746 On the visual I agree SoS is clearly the better of the 2, on the gameplay hell no I enjoyed SoS to but I honnestly think Chained Echoes blows it out of the water, main issue with Sea of Stars being a lack of variety that makes the game quite redundant when you're in the late game, and you're still using the exact same abilities than the one you had at the beginning of the game, and also it lacks RPG element that could make it more strategic, like there is no statut effects in SoS, no debuffs, no buffs outside of Valere's Shield, your character has no way to change their elemental resistance, and the equipment system is litteraly the same thing as FFXVI weapons and armors are nothing more than Stat Stick, there's nothing behind just which equipment as the biggest number, only accessories carry side effect, and finally there is no character customization beyond the small stat bonus on LVUP you get SoS was extremely disappointing on that part.
Chained Echoes has an overall more strategic and challenging battle system you had way more options in Chained Echoes, much more strategic possibilies with all the statut effect, buffs and debuffs (which actually works even on bosses), and between the Grimoire system, crystal system (that wasn't great on release but has been improve since through update), Class Emblem...etc.... there is much more customization in Chained Echoes, not mentionning the Overdrive gauge to manage, and altough the actual exploration is more fun in SoS, the exploration felt more rewarding in Chained Echoes through the Board system, the sidequest that were much more impactfull and relevant to the world building that in SoS, and scatter throughout the game rather than all sidequests being bloated at the end of the game.
And on the story same thing I think Chained Echoes just blows SoS even harder on that front than on the gameplay, SoS's first 10-15 hours were extremely lacking to me on that department, I honnestly didn't care for the story until that point, Chained Echoes had me hooked almost right from the get go and never lose my interest even once during the 50 hours it tooks me to complete the story, the narrative and pacing were top notch as far as I'm concern, altough both end up with a somewhat underwhelming ending that is begging for a sequel or added contents.
@@mikev8746one guy made it my guy and it’s better than sea of stars
Oh man, I completely diasgree. Chained Echoes to me, was "jrpg reference" the game. Like character portraits resembling characters from other jrpgs. One character looks so much like Beatrix in ff9, another one looks like a judge from ff12. Story beats are taken from other jrpgs such as acquiring an army like suikoden, a generational past like xenogears, mechs like xenogears, and the "passing of the torch" segment in vagrant story (and prior to that part, the level design had hallways that were straight up ripped from vagrant story with the underground paths with lamps illuminated in blue). I understand that chained echoes can be seen as "celibration" of the genre, But to me, because it's so reliant on other media, it completely lacks an identity. The combat is good, but as someone who has played a lot of jrpgs, it was shocking how much was borrowed. Throwing good ideas from other games and putting it in a blender doesn't always create a masterpiece and I really feel that was the approach in that title.
Anyway, I'm expressing this respectfully. No shade at you if you liked it.
@@cat-pat8310 JRPG reference - The Game more aptly applies to Undertale/Deltarune (and Mother/Earthbound before it) and oddly, while playing SoS, Undertale was my first or second thought about the vibe. But both games are absolutely self-aware of this (even if Undertale makes it playfully, while SoS makes it slightly more serious and sans-the-4th-wall-breaking, more akin to Mother).
I can't comment much on Chained Echoes yet as I have to play over 5h of it, but I was enjoying it, even if obviously, a one-man-game like CE has issues beating a larger, yet still Indie team like SoS's. I do plan to go back to it because it was giving me more of an FFI-VI vibe than I think SoS has given me. SoS is clearly more Chrono Trigger than FF and it shows, and that doesn't need t be a bad thing for either game really.
The reason this style fell out of fashion is because a lot of loud critics with short sight and a lot reach in the late 90s (and weirdly vitriolic 00s) decided they thought it was old and dated and bad, and the whatever-was-new-and-trendy was obviously objectively better. And a lot of creatives and their bosses took this to heart as representative of what all audiences must feel, despite that definitely not being the case.
Thankfully, we're finally starting to walk back all the damage done, and hopefully more games in this style can continue to thrive
Chained Echo's Osteopath traveler. we can do more of this
The characters really annoyed the ever loving shit outta me. If you bring up tropes and fourth wall breaks as cringey tropes AND THEN PROCEED TO DO THE EXACT THING YOU JOKED ABOUT, IT STILL IS CRINGEY AND TROPEY
Adult life pulled me from games, but i was constantly curious what you guys have been playing and missing the amazing dicussions of the games I love so much. Sea of Stars is another game for my backlog to play when i finally get the chance. Just wanted to say I miss you guys... hopefully I can be here to watch Xenoblade 3 discussion. You guys rock!
Just finished this today, I enjoyed it alot but Chained Echoes might scratch the itch a little more if you're looking for something with more bite to the story.
100% agreed.
I honestly didn't care for Chained Echoes story. Maybe I'm misinterpreting it's themes but the ending was awful
Personally, I think CE story felt like a little flat/too simple for me. Maybe there're ploblems in character developments.
@@VariousMethod5 I'd say about 3% have the same opinion, both that they didn't like the story and the ending was awful.
Themes I'm not sure, but probably something generic like learning to forgive yourself and others.
Yeah, Chained Echoes' story wasn't perfect, or anything, (it simultaneously tried to feel too complex, while ultimately being pretty simple, and some of the late game twists weren't foreshadowed effectively enough) but it absolutely seems to address all of his problems with the story; it pays reverence to its forebears and is occasionally a bit silly, but without sacrificing verisimilitude, plus there's plenty of interpersonal drama and very interesting villains. It also does all the things Sea of Stars does with its combat that he liked, minus the timed attacks. It seems to me like it's literally the game he was asking for in the outro.
I think the story fits the feel of this being a lost SNES rpg and works well enough. It's mainly the way this game reminded me of Golden Sun fused with Beyond Oasis that gives me that feeling that's the reason I haven't retired from gaming after 40 years. Good stuff. Playing Starfield, Sea of Stars, Persona V and Like a Dragon currently. I REALLY want to play FF. 16 but no PS. V.
I'm very happy I have what I do have tho. Great review!
it's what i feel piears solar should have been.
You've got quite a great lineup of games there!
The points of interest on the map the way it’s puzzles challenge but resolve quickly. I’m so addicted to it so far. All we need now is a game like this with an all time great scenario. The scenario is everything
I thought of you man when playing this game. I remember listening to the Chrono Trigger review many years ago. And how it resonated so strongly with me as to my own personal experience with it playing it as a kid. Both on a personal note and a game design one. And I remember how you expressed many times over how much of a shame it was that they didn't make games like this anymore. Now I personally am a bit easier at moving past that sort of thing even though I also miss it. But I couldn't help but think for a brief moment how elated you were playing the game yourself. Even if it's not a perfect one. It's a great thing to still have come out in this day and age.
That short clip of FF16 really sums up what is wrong with that game. Whatever that magic is that classic FF used to have, it's completely gone now and has been for years. FF16 is just soulless.
I enjoyed this game to the point where I did just about everything possible (those who know about the flimsy hammers know the extent to which I mean this). It's hard to say I didn't enjoy my time with the game by that metric, and the fantastical environments, visual prowess, and core combat mechanics really speak to that. But I have a lot of criticisms that don't leave me head over heals upon reflection. The writing quality is a big one that's been discussed to death and my take isn't really all that different. When Garl-- a character who is still pretty cookie cutter (heh)-- was the clear standout of the playable cast for me, it's not really a compliment. I'm even finding the writing of the new characters in the First Soldier campaign of Ever Crisis more engaging. It's surprising to me because The Messenger actually has a fantastic, colorful authorial voice. And it's not as if many SNES JRPG English translations were masterpieces... but they had character and often a je ne sais quoi about them. For example, Chrono Trigger's Woolsey translation has plenty of grammatical errors (looking at you, Frog) but the characters have layers so it didn't matter. You basically know everything there is to know about any character on an emotional level within a minute of meeting them a few exceptions. This is just too important to my continued adoration of a JRPG after playing it to ignore for me... there are games that have played far worse but stuck with me much longer because the characters were even remotely memorable. And this is before touching on the ham-fisted and flat dialogue, and how the story being underwritten results in major plot points that are nonsensical, and a general lack of thematic depth.
Honestly though, I'm also not big on the music. The few standout tracks were great and most of the time the music fit the environment/mood well, but beyond that they either didn't stand the test of repetition or just felt like inferior works (I know holding Mitsuda to his Chrono Trigger/Xenoblade standard may be unfair but I can't help it). I don't want to rag on it too much other than to say I don't necessarily think it's worthy of the high praise I've seen. It's usually just fine (again, with some highlights).
Also, combat did start to grate of me with the very limited moveset of the characters. The game makes up for this in enemy design that requires different approaches and otherwise it does just about everything right, but there's only so many times I can Moonerang or hold for a sun ball before it stops being novel. Also, I found the combat surprisingly easy because of the lack of limitation on swapping out characters... theoretically I actually love this mechanic but I rarely felt in danger due to it. The only times I recall dying were to a few standard encounters that caught me off guard. I also say I'm "surprised" at how easy I found it as the demo was pretty tough to me. I'd also note that the equipment customization was a bit lackluster and you never really felt the power of most upgrades, particularly weapons (the only weapons I recall having any sort of special properties were the ones in the undead area). But all this said, fun combat overall and like Mike it's exactly the design philosophy I want to see return. This sated me.
There are also some quality of life issues. Until the very late game, moving around the map is a slog, particularly if you need to get somewhere in the middle of an island. Running back through zones only to get to the area you're looking for to do one small thing was extremely tedious. There needed to be a system to circumvent this. I'd also say that the inability to exit zones at any time caused a similar tedium when the thing you needed to backtrack to was smack in the middle but I could probably live more if they made navigating the map more palatable earlier in the game. (Yes, I understand the narrative/emotional heft of the freedom to do so later, but I think that mechanic allows enough new exploration on its own to still be impactful.)
I put over 40 hours into this game so clearly I did enjoy it. Really should compliment how tactile navigating the world is, and the clear love and care that the team had for creating it. But all the big and little quibbles I have amounted to something that never quite felt like the genuine article.
Easily one of my favorite games ever. It's unfortunate that the writing doesn't give us much beyond surface level, but it didn't take away from my enjoying it. Finished up last weekend, ramping up to go again and clear everything!
The music, The art, The Characters, The World and the god damn WHOLE PACKAGE! is just sooooo fantasticly fantastic!
Grabbing the physical switch edition next year, super stoked to play this one
Just finished last night. I haven’t enjoyed a game this much since before this generation started. My only real gripe is how it forces you to get the “bad” ending before reloading your save, doing tedious side stuff, and getting the good ending, which I doubt most players will even do.
This game made me fall in love with jrpgs all over again! Game of the year for me!
I agree about the tone of the story, but I loved how they used Teaks at the camp to introduce lore pieces that would later come up in the narrative. Any thoughts on how that compares to the FF XVI ATL approach?
Heavily agree on the exploration and puzzles. Especially with the puzzles, it gives just enough that it isn't too simple nor too complex that it feels engaging and it also serves as nice variety to mix things up.
I also wish more turn-based / command based games would include action commands. As it make this style of combat feel responsive and impactful which I feel is something that's generally lacking in most turn-based games.
Everyone complains about the Buffy kind of dialogue now, but shows like that and Firefly were heavily praised at the time. It seems like 5e issue is execution more so than the actual format of dialogue.
I’m so glad I decided to commit to this game. It’s way more than I thought it was going to be, such a wonderful experience.
Totally agree with your assessment Mike, including the story criticism. Overall I’m just pumped to see games like this being developed and selling well. It bodes well for the future of classic style RPGs
I’ve never clicked a video so fast in my life. I’m about six hours into the game and really enjoy it. I agree with everything that you’ve said on your review. The tone, charm, combat, music et cetera are all fantastic. The game does make me smile and laugh, but I do wish it had a bit more of the serious tone of something like Final Fantasy 6 as well.
I'm nearing the end of this game and I've REALLY enjoyed my time with it. I kind of don't want it to end.
One thing though, the Wheels minigame. I'm either terrible at it or have terrible luck with the spins because I haven't won a single match.
About Wheels, I feel like it's the former. The first few matches I couldn't win consistently, but after those first 3 or 4 losses I didn't lose a single game. For me it mostly just came down to using the Mage, and someone to counter their main damage dealer on the other side. For example, if they had a Warrior, I used the Engineer (Warrior losses to a single layer of wall); if the had the Assassin, I used the Priest (Assassin bypasses the wall, so I healed instead).
It's entirely possible you skipped some champions on your way, because they _do not_ scale to your board level/available pieces. I 100% fought them in the wrong order and suffered for it, hammering my head against a hard one until I lucked out and then backtracking to the ones i hadn't found and completely destroying them.
Looks beautiful! Gonna have to pick it up. Have any of you tried out chained echoes? I've been enjoying that one, scratches a similar itch.
I completely agree with you, this style has to come back! I am currently playing Sea of Stars and enjoying it a lot.
Mike, thanks so much for continuing to advocate for this style of game, and I 100% agree that there is nothing “antiquated” at all about it. Sea of Stars is a perfect case of a game that trims the fat of this genre and shows how a modern RPG should play. There is still plenty of space to be explored here, and I hope we keep seeing efforts like this prove that.
More than any genre I think turn based RPGs need the right amount of difficulty. Too easy and like you said, there’s no impetus to learn the really well designed systems put in place. Too hard, and it turns into a grind fest, which can also become boring and repetitive. Just right, means you explore and master the systems, feel the adrenaline of overcoming a challenge, but never feel stuck.
Of all the JRPGs I've played, Chrono Trigger and Wild Arms probably have the most balanced difficulty. I never needed to grind in either game, and amazingly the challenge still felt compelling. I have still died in both games, but it was always doable. I just needed to adjust my strategy and/or improve my execution.
I was really looking forward to this video, and I tend to agree with your viewpoints on this one, Mike. I think that some of the main characters definitely could have used more personality and depth. They had their stakes in the story, but not enough personal reasons to fight other than, "It's the right thing to do." That's my quick take on it, anyway.
That said, I still thoroughly enjoyed the story. The games that Sabotage has made up to this point seem to be more concerned with lore, history, and the overall world, and I think that's still a good way to tell a good story if done correctly. Some individual moments in SoS totally had me on the edge of my seat, too. I think the story was definitely worth telling at the end of the day.
And the rest of the game is pitch-perfect, obviously. Definitely my personal game of the year.
Great job on the review 👏🏾
I love the points you brought up and your approach to judging it’s merits. I honestly go to you before I look at corporate reviewers because of the sincerity and focus on aspects left unspoken. Thank you
I've been waiting for your scholarly review with SOS ❤️❤️🤟
I was really shocked at the lack of star ocean influence given the name
So we have a name for it now - "Whedon Speech".
Thank you Mike, you gave my enemy an identity. Now I have a target...
Glad to hear it doesn't just bug me though, words struggle to convey how much I loathe this style.
I always just referred to it as "Avengers 'awkward' humour"
I definitely love the exploration and world design and GORGEOUS look of this game. However I have to say the combat system fell very flat for me. There wasn't much of a rewarding progression system compared to SNES JRPGs, so I wasn't really looking forward to battles as much as I wish I could have. I also didn't like the combo point system as most of the game you never had enough points to use any combos in regular battles. Still a charming and well designed game and I enjoyed it overall.
Excellent review Mike, I agree that it brought back a lot of the magic of those 90s era RPGs and each screen you explore you can tell how much care the developers put into everything.
Exactly how I feel in regards to combat. You have a such small movelist. You go hours with barely any mana, let alone moves. Then you hardly get any use of the combo system. Basic implementation of QTE from Mario rpg games. Combat was lacking and limited.
Loved the review! Fantastic as always. I share a lot of similar perspectives in my own.
I think an important thing to note about this games story is that it’s clearly written for a younger audience to appreciate SNES era JRPGs. It’s not aimed at the Xenogears or FF7 crowd, it’s an entry point to a bygone era for people who aren’t old enough to know any better. When judged from that perspective, the story while not perfect, is more than serviceable, while still managing to pull off a few surprising subversions.
The fact that it manages to consolidate from so many different beloved snes era JRPGs and trim so much fat is commendable.
Absolutely 100% agree with everything said. Sea of Stars is beautiful, it is fun, it is well-made, if only they could have taken the same care applied everywhere else to the story. And it isn't like the story is bad or anything, it is just very average. Garl is the best though, just really love that guy. I literally just beat Sea of Stars today and I'm planning on getting the true ending before the week is over.
The comment about missing these kinds of games hits hard though. It hurts, too. I think I just want more of these experiences to lose myself in and I can't keep going back to the classics.
Chained Echoes is another recent hit that I loved. It isn't quite on the same level as Sea of Stars but I think they could have learned from one another, as well.
Best review of this game on RUclips right now. I agree in both the positive and the negative remarks.
Great review!
I haven't started Sea of Stars yet, but the Messenger writing rubbed me the wrong way for the same reasons you stated here. I hope it doesn't bug me too much, because the game looks perfect, otherwise
I can't wait to play this game. I preordered it digitally and finished The Messenger shortly before it released. Sabotage has impressed me with their passion and design talent.
Edit: So I'm about 5 hours into the game now and yeah, the combat is every bit as good as this video states. Something cool that he didn't mention is how item management has been designed. You can only have 10 restorative items at any given time. Normally, this would be a frustrating limitation, but in Sea of Stars, restoration is possible via other means that have nothing to do with items. You can restore MP just by doing normal attacks, and Healing skills are not uncommon. So instead of being obligatory "I must keep these ethers because I am using magic all the time," it feels like there is more decision making involved in items. What do I need to get through the next session? What do I expect to be using during the boss fight? How necessary is it to have MP restores in a cinch? The battles are incredibly well balanced, and being able to cook at any rest stop means you are only in short supply of restores if you are truly struggling, which hasn't happened to me yet. The most I've had to use in any given stretch is 3 or 4, and it feels appropriately challenging.
The combat is good, but gets pretty boring the longer you go for me at least. The options you have for each character is very limited, and I'm not sure if i did something OP, but i found that often i could just spam the fire ball with the male character (what ever his name was) and that's almost all i needed.
While there are some differences there with combo moves (not something i had to use outside of boss fights), your spells, normal attacks, and normal attacks being enhanced by those orbs, it still got boring for me pretty fast.
Thanks for the review! I plan on picking this one up eventually; there are so many big releases this year. The 16-bit graphics with the retro sound fonts hit a special spot for me.
Great review, looking forward to trying this when I'm done with BG3.
I feel the same as you - that there's so much room for RPGs made in 'older formats' (like the examples at 6:14 ) to explore creatively, and still impress today. I personally feel like the fixed camera view with pre-rendered backgrounds especially has gone far too unexplored. Just imagine what a game going with an art direction like FF9 would look like today, created with the technology we have now - it would be incredible!
However (and maybe I'm just getting to bogged down in definition here) I'm not sure these type of games need a 'triple A' approach to come to fulfilment. Triple A seems to be about huge budgets and the highest quality graphics possible, so it's hard to imagine that even if a game like this was made with the greatest story, best art style and amazing gameplay would ever be labelled as 'triple A'.
If what you actually meant by that was taking series that are typically triple A and making games like this with them though, then I 100% agree! For a while now, I've wished mainline FF would take an approach like Zelda has done in the past - making the huge, ambitious new console titles (BOTW / TOTK), but also keeping the older formula alive (a link between worlds).
@@JB-mm5ff Hopefully it happens! Making a game like that is actually a project I hope to try making someday.
Great review, you mentioned my top three rpgs of all time in succession, mario rpg, chrono trigger, and golden sun Lol! .. its making me think of a high budget cleverly dungeon design game and what comes to mind is that one game you did a video for with Landon.. Captain Toad for the WiiU! But i guess its not so recent anymore after all.
Really thought you would play chained echoes first though, looked more like up your alley!
I've been eyeing this game for a bit now, this is all the endorsement I needed to make the jump!
thank you for no spoilers. Looking forward to getting a copy soon
SoS dethroned Chrono Cross for my favorite combat system in the genre. While the base difficulty is a bit low once you figure out the value of all your non-damage options, a challenge run of this game with no positive relics or gold accessories, and Artful Gambit+Dubous Dare turned on, was by far the most fun I've ever had in any JRPG's combat. Turns it into a more tactical Dark Souls. Finally, a JRPG where skill/timing plays a huge role, and finally my decisions in combat matter a lot more than fiddling through 1000 options in complex but superfluous menus before the fight.
I'm more critical of the writing than Mike is here, but everything else is stellar and redeems it completely, from music and visuals to the minigames and just plain moving around the maps. GOTY for me unless someone pulls off a miracle.
Just finished this yesterday. I had a great time with it and the only minor change I would make to the gameplay is that the fast travel command needs to be remapped to a different button... like i said it's very minor but can be annoying because its the same button as the regular command button. I agree with you story wise that it isn't an exceptional story being told but it's more than good enough and the game looks a plays great.
“I don’t understand why this particular style of rpg had to be lost in time.” Apologies if I miss the exact quote, but the answer is simple: greed.
This framework of RPG doesn’t lend itself to DLC or loot boxes/game as a service. The ARPG approach capitalizes on social media and trophy hunting to compel players to buy loot boxes or obtain DLC in order to compete against their friends, even if just on a leaderboard. Easy games with easy win buttons and cinematic visuals (FF15 and FF16) generate and maintain endorphin release upon instant gratification. Old school RPGs and their Indie modern versions, such as Sea of Stars, require talking to NPCs and solving puzzles and engaging the brain.
This isn’t even limited to RPGs. One of the complaints I see constantly for the new MK1 is they don’t provide a tutorial in the campaign when you get a new character. Most gamers who started after the mid-point of the PS2 era have different priorities with their gaming time, such that they want tutorials and waypoints as opposed to gaining their enjoyment from the adventure and figuring things out.
So there's plenty of truth in what you say. There's also the perspective that many companies are trying to appeal to the western audiences though, and modern western audience apparently doesn't jive that well with turn based rpgs nowadays. Persona series for example took quite a while for western audiences to really love it, and hashino katsura did say on record that the later entries tried to cater heavily to western market with narrative and theme.
Then you look at dragonquest, where numbers show its more popular in the east than the west. why? well it historically didnt cater too much to the western audiences. this is also why square is going more action with final fantasy lately, as they feel western audiences jive more with action oriented games than turn based. I recall square was surprised that bravely default (DS turn based rpg) sold quite well. Well yeah, it sold well because it was a good game.
This perspective is pretty common with these companies. In the end, they need to make money. Thats fine, gotta get paid for the work you put in. And most feel the big bucks are in the western audience. Some get it right in what people want, some dont. As such, they struggle to figure out what themes to work with, or changing the genre entirely. I don't know if it's purely corporate greed, more as some struggle on figuring out what western audiences really want, especially if a company historically made games with eastern tastes. Yoko Taro made the decision to make main protagonist for Nier Gestalt a father instead of an older brother specifically to appeal to the west, and that was a great call. Vaan from ff12 though reportedly was to appeal to japanese gamers (specifically teenagers) and...most of the west hate vaan. Again, they get it right or they get it wrong. But yeah, it is interesting.
One of the main problems with the combat is the lack of progression with the skills. You have Sunball at level 1 and you still use the same identical move in the end game. It doesn't get stronger, change or anything.
I actually saw this as a positive. Instead of having you just replacing your basic skills with shinier skills (which makes you just stop using skills early on), the skills you have are useful throughout the entire game.
@@joshuadillon7134 I think the point more so is to get options rather than a new stronger version. Although I'm not opposed to a stronger one. It usually means that it cost more, and sometimes you wanna save the stronger ones (and MP of course) for the bigger fight while you can save MP while using a weaker version.
@uberpwnage2.0
That's actually one of the things they were trying to subvert is the "I can't use my skills until the big boss" shenanigans. You spend MP to generate combo points to use combo moves that generate your ultimate bar to let you use ultimate skills.
Sure, they could have given each character 20 skills, but with the limited elements and lock system, what ends up eventually happening is that everyone gets a "This skill breaks everything and has every element and we had to inflate your MP number through the moon and we've now completely negated the entire purpose of our combat system so that you can feel ultra powerful since you spent 140 hours grinding to level 300 just to then call the game too easy."
I'd personally much prefer skills that serve a purpose versus having to scroll all the way to the bottom because the first 30 of them I learned have no point anymore.
I dont think people are asking for 20 skills, so no need to be hyperbole. Often i just had to spam the fireball and my normal attacks to get through encounters and it got boring pretty fast.
I can only speak for myself but 2-3 more skills per character would've been enough.
@@joshuadillon7134
I’m curious to see how you feel when you finish it. Playing the game is great and the majority of the tone kind of misses for me, but when it chooses to get serious some beats really land
Given what i've seen of the writing at 4 hours in, i just cannot fathom that being true. It genuinely reads like the writer has never studied writing before, or are going out of their way to avoid observing simple things like character voice because they think it's funny or something. It feels insincere and the writer doesn't seem to care (because they left a PILE of errors in it) so why should i?
@@bartandaelus359yeah, they paired some really nice gameplay with a downright embarrassing story/writing. I felt Chained Echoes was a more focused experience and much more enjoyable for me.
Trust me, it definitely isn’t the most potent writing ever by any means but they certainly land a few good beats. I was pleasantly surprised.
I'm roundly disgusted how the video game industry abandons genres that people would shovel money out for. JRP (like this) tactical games (FF tactics), RTS's, even side scrollers like 2d mario were largely dumped for decades at a time.
RUclips! Where is the notification?? Btw, i really love this game and finally i can hear your review. Love it
The game is definitely good. but I think the internet got a bit hyperbolic with alot of the talk about the game. its not an instant classic or all time great imo. Its a solid game, that proves there is still a market for this type of thing.
Outside of how the game looks, there is nothing special to it. The characters, story, and writing are all pretty average at best. Id argue the writing is downright simple and borderline bad even. The combat is fun, but timing hits isnt anything new or done particularly well. its functional to keep you engaged, I guess? I never had a problem with that in turn based games. I do like the puzzle aspect of breaking down enemy barrier/casts , especially on bosses, with different types of abilities. That was far more interesting to me than timed button presses.
Game is fun and worth a play, especially if you have game pass since its on there. But its not this transformative experience ive seen some youtubers and reviews go on about. Appreciate the review!
I loved this game and can't recommend it enough if any of you are on the fence.
I also love the cutscenes are animations above the graphical level of the game and there’s very few of them. That difference really means they’re just there for a moment to elevate things for a second or two
All your comments about wishing this general approach to game design still existed makes me really want to recommend Octopath Traveler II to you. I think you’ll find it a far more significant and successful approach to the ideas that Sea of Stars tries to play with.
Nah man the story in octopath isn’t that good either and dungeon wise it’s just a pick up chest simulator
@@omensoffate you clearly only played the first one, then. II is a whole different beast than the first game
@@oscarisbestboi8118 nah I played 2 and it was meh
Really interested to see your thoughts on Chained Echoes.
While I celebrate the return of this general framework of game, and appreciate the phenomenally detailed art that went into Sea of Stars, the tedious combat and vacuous writing represented such a tragic negligence of duty from the persons responsible that it rendered the game monotonous and deeply disappointing. I only hope its success teaches the lesson that this kind of game is highly desired, and not that it's permissible to invest so little expertise into story and battle design.
Sea of stars and Chained echos pretty much addressed the biggest issues i have been having with the genre in a very long time and its quite baffling that indie developers did a much better job evolving the genre than even vets of the genre.
For me what seperates those two games from the rest of the genre are few things like Engaging Exploration, excellent Dungeon design, side quests that dont feel like an afterthought and a little to no empty content to drag out the game, thats what the genre really needs, its not insane graphics or mature storytelling that tries way too hard to be a movie, its these small things are the main things that make up an overall great jrpg experience.
Would love more games like this if anyone sees this and knows of any please recommend me some!
Glad you covered this game. My GOTY so far (even tho BG3 is objectively better... I had more fun in Sea of Stars). I think it's the most beautiful game I've ever played, and the music... coral cascades and brisk are amazing
Star ocean 2 r is coming my guy
It’s definitely GotY material for me.
My only gripe is the character design, and that’s more of a personal taste issue.
Dunno... I feel this writing style is something I'd love to see more of. Many games these days feel overly serious in an attempt to appeal to a more mature audience, and I always get the feeling that people lost the ability to enjoy a good mix of comedic and serious storytelling. To me it never undermined the interpersonal drama or seriousness of the story, but contrasted it in a way that enhanced the overall experience and made the more dramatic parts hit even harder. Apart from that note, I completely agree with the rest.
TBH, I found the 4th wall breaking charmingly funny. I don’t mind it not being overly serious as my recently played games have been entirely serious, so it’s a nice break.
I really enjoy the art here and agree with you that it’s damn near perfect for this medium. The dungeon designs are some of the best and combat is actually more enjoyable than FF16 was.
I’m happy this game has done so well, as I believe it will inspire more to do the same. AAA games, atm, just don’t mean a whole lot to me, so having this indie game be this good inspires.
Sea if Stars is on my wishlist and to me, it looks like one of the best indie rpgs out there, but my biggest complaint with indie rpgs is that the stories are often very lackluster. The devs always seem to focus more on graphics, battle mechanics and exploration, but honestly, that's not what I play rpgs for. If you're gonna bother to make an rpg, you might as well make a Xenogears, in my opinion.
Haven't played this yet, but my expectations are high. Looks and sounds excellent. I'm totally with you on the point that this style/format of JRPG is needed more today. My recent related faves are Octopath and Bravely Default II. More like these please.
Im actually just beyond surprised you say its not that funny- ive had wayyyy too many actual LOL moments.
I’m with him I laughed maybe once or twice
Next one to grab is Eiyuuden Chronicles 100 Heroes.
I enjoyed it so much and planning to do the new game+. I agree with your opinion about the story. If only it made me care more about the characters it would be perfect.
After watching the Escapist documentary, I think I have a little bit more of an understanding of why the story feels lackluster. Sabotage's goal with Sea of Stars was to recreate the fond memory of what JRPG's were like. It sounds like to me there was never a strong vision for the story they wanted to tell with this game; no thematic through-lines or ideas they wanted to explore. I think the story could have been anything as long as it resembled a 90's JRPG.
Keep in mind this is mostly conjecture, as they don't talk about the story much at all in the documentary. Maybe to avoid spoilers, maybe because the story was never a core tenet of production in the first place.
I hope you got Shadow Hearts on your list, in terms of the battlesystem.
though chronologicaly i believe Koudelka might be the first
Now that Square has decided the Final Fantasy series jumped the shark to Dark Soul/DMC, I'm so glad indie devs will pick up the JRPG torch and run with it.
I haven’t beaten it yet, but same sentiments. Reminds me of why I got into this genre
I have absolutely loved this game and I am definitely not the "target" audience. I do not enjoy turn based games at all. Which I realize is my fault and my loss, but they've always just been too much for my dumb brain. The only Final Fantasy game I've ever played was FF7: Remake. I've always wanted to play FF7 (Mike is definitely a huge influence for that) but the turn based aspect kept me from enjoying what I know is a truly incredible experience. Last turn based game I played was Pokemon Blue on my original Gameboy.
I took a chance on this game purely because of how much I loved The Messenger and I'm so glad I did. The Artifacts in the game absolutely help make the game way more approachable and less overwhelming.
This is an entire genre I had written off as "not for me" and I'm so glad to be proven wrong.
If you like this, I think you would also appreciate Chrono Trigger. It also has a very simple battle system with quite a bit of depth hidden in it. You have standard attack, Tech, and item. That's it. But the fun comes from when characters can combine their Techniques to make something that either satisfies a particular niche or is just generally very useful. Your single person heal can be a full party heal. Your highly damaging attack can be given an elemental quality. Your single-target sword strike can hit two or more targets. Part of this also comes from how it utilizes the ATB gauge seen in classic Final Fantasy, but does more with it that pretty much any other game. Combo Techs require all participating members to have a full gauge, so it adds a good risk/reward element. Furthermore, the enemies actually move on the battlefield during combat, so you can time your attacks carefully to hit more enemies with the AOE attacks. And due to how these skills are acquired and used throughout the game, no character is ever worthless, and you want to have all of them in your party at some point just to see what's possible. I beat the game twice with radically different party compositions and felt like they were just as viable as each other, just with a different set of strengths and weaknesses.
And again, all of this depth comes from combat that only has 3 options. There really isn't any other game that can master simplicity to such a degree. It's never overwhelming or disengaging.
@@jacobmonks3722 thank you for the recommendation! I've heard of Chrono Trigger and (like the FF games) I know it is supposed to be an amazing experience. I will definitely give it a try after this. I also plan on trying Mario RPG since I know it was a big influence on this game as well.
I absolutely adore Sea of Stars! I'm on my 3rd playthrough at the moment. I can't wait to see what Sabatage does with the DLC. Game of the Year 2023 (yeah, I had more fun with this game than I did FF16, but I do love FF16)!
While I bought the game in order to classical jRPGs, I havent started playing since I restarted my FFX playthough. (Great podcats on FFX!)
It's next on my list:-)
Thanks for the review! Currently playing…
It reminds me so much of Chrono Trigger. I really like this game.
To your comment about the industry being wrong to move away from this kind of game: while I agree in a sense, I do think there was a period of time where the cost to create games of this scope outweighed the popularity (at least to the people funding them). More people are playing games than ever, and many of the people who are enjoying this game got into retro RPGs through things like RUclips and emulation. Huge detailed photoreal worlds may be getting more expensive to make, but the tools to make games in general are more accessible than ever. I know they're not exactly the same, but Chrono Trigger had about 50 people working on it, while Sea of Stars had about half that. So I think the time is just right, where people who miss these games have the ability to make them. Regardless, I love it!
Easily my favorite game of the year - What a special treat it has been!
If it has not been already mentioned, I suggest you check out Chained Echoes - especially considering your criticism for this game
Playing right now on Game Pass, so glad I got to experience this great little RPG. Combat is engaging, puzzles totally remind me of GS, and even if the story and tropes fall flat at least it’s always gorgeous to look at-treat it like a bedtime story. Absolutely need more games like this. What would you recommend playing next?
WAIT ITS PART OF THE MESSENGER,Well that changes everything
My feelings on the story ended up changing a lot once I got to the latter bits of the game, to be honest. It's nothing to write home about, but it ditches a lot of the tongue in cheek "aren't these RPG tropes silly?" thing in favor of just telling a charming, simple story, which is something I _really_ enjoy. I really like the worldbuilding, it's given me a bunch of interesting ideas to take from!
Needless to say, everything else about the game is spectacular. The difficulty felt really good, none of the bosses felt like they were there to stretch my playtime, and I suspect if I try to play with some of the Difficulty Modifiers turned up, this game will thoroughly kick my ass.
Got this game 2 days ago absolutely love it... haven't picked up my switch in a year and now I can't set my switch down haha love it love it love it thanks sea of stars
I believe that the cause that we are not getting JRPG formula in Triple A games is that these kind of games do not appeal to a massive playerbase to justify a big money investment in the eyes of the investors
Valere and Zale were weak protags and i actually found Garl pretty one note despite being the "charming" one (still better than the blank slate main two) but I love Serai and Re'shan and feel like they really push the story going forward. Teaks and the side characters are wonderful too!! i'm at the end (game told me hey here's the final thing, feel free to do it whenever) and yeah story/chars start kinda weak but I think Serai and beyond just starts this continuous uphill climb. it still suffers because of what i've mentioned but i found myself very invested in the story as a whole the more i played. considering you get Serai pretty early on, id call that a win.
VAGUE spoilers
learning more about Erlina and Brugraves and then meeting the actual antagonist were very powerful moments imo, especially the latter. one of the stronger main antagonists of this gen based on his introduction alone.
also, i feel like the soundtrack was good/pleasant until you get to Glacial Peak. that to the end???? bangerz. straight bangerz. it's about mid game???
Really want your thoughts on chained echoes.
This is a fair and thorough review! keep it up!
The review is spot on
Haven a ton of fun with this game. I think its the best pixel art Ive ever seen, mayve besides the hd2d games like Octo and the upcoming Replaced.
It helps that Chrono Trigger is my all time favorite. SoS definitely doesnt feel as grand and epic, but still... even a 80% CT I'll take any day of the week over a huge and boring triple A with generic art.